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Go Home Would Newt Out-Debate Obama? It Wouldn't Matter Anyway

POLITICS JANUARY 26, 2012

Would Newt Out-Debate Obama? It Wouldn't Matter Anyway

Back in October, I went up to Cambridge, Massachusetts to watch the eighth Republican primary debate of the season with Mark McKinnon, the Republican media strategist who had served as debate coach for George W. Bush, John McCain, and Sarah Palin. I was interested in McKinnon’s professional assessment of a Republican field whose succession of frontrunners, from Tim Pawlenty to Herman Cain, had nearly all been made or unmade by debate performances. At the time, Rick Perry was hurtling toward the abyss, Cain was bafflingly ascendant, and Mitt Romney was performing as advertised. But McKinnon called my attention to the darkest of the dark horses among them: Newt Gingrich.

“Gingrich is doing what Perry should’ve been doing—jumping in, interrupting people, taking on the media, taking on Obama,” McKinnon explained. Gingrich’s place on the risible margins of the contest, he argued, was paradoxically the source of his strength: “Look at his career—Gingrich was the ultimate back bencher. That was when he was at his most effective.”

At the time this struck me as deeply improbable, but I have to concede now that McKinnon was well ahead of the curve. More than any previous occupant of the GOP’s Anyone But Romney seat, Gingrich owes his recent ascendance to his debate performances, to the primary voters who thrilled to his flaying of Juan Williams and John King on Fox News and CNN last week. A lackluster performance in Monday night’s faceoff in Tampa notwithstanding, it remains central to his appeal headed into Jacksonville tonight. Writing from South Carolina on Saturday, Slate’s David Weigel described the archetypal Gingrich voter he had met in the days leading up to Gingrich’s decisive victory there:

The Gingrich voter proudly announced who he’d voted for, saying that he made up his mind in the last week, or after the last debate. (Exit polls backed this up: Voters who decided in “the last few days” went 44-22 for Newt over Romney.) After a while, the only differences between their endorsements were the verbs they used to describe what Gingrich would do to Barack Obama in debates.

In Charleston, a voter named Jayne Harmon claimed that Gingrich would “dismantle” the president.

In Monck’s Corner, I learned that Gingrich would “humiliate” him. In Columbia, I was told that Obama would be “lacerated” or “annihilated.” When Gingrich spoke, and repeated his promise to challenge Obama to seven debates, a biker named Vincent Sbraccia hoisted his sign and screamed: “Wipe the floor with him! Wipe the floor with him!”

A lot of these people considered Gingrich a genius, or at least a first-class intellectual. […] He’d outdebate Obama because he didn’t accept the notion that Obama was a competent, eloquent president. They didn’t accept it, either.

This belief may be inextricable from the web of conservative conspiracy theories about Teleprompters and so forth, but for the sake of argument, let’s grant the nub of the Gingrich voters’ point: The speaker, first-class intellectual or no, is a consistently entertaining presence in the debates, and Obama is somewhat less so. The president was stiff and a bit dour compared to his adversaries in the 2008 primaries; his relative victories in the general election debates had more to do with John McCain’s flaws—the anger, the strange wanderings around the stage—than with his own performances.

But Gingrich’s supporters, surely big fans of history, might want to consult it. Since the advent of television, there have been just two presidential elections that were arguably decided by debates: elections in which the candidate leading in the polls going into the debates ultimately lost the race. The first was 1960, when a sweating and sickly-looking Richard Nixon saw his lead evaporate in the bronzed glow of John F. Kennedy. The second was the 2000 election.

There is only one moment that anyone really remembers from the first debate between Al Gore and Bush that October: the moment when Gore, listening to Bush answer a question about his litmus test or lack thereof for judicial appointees, leaned over his podium and sighed heavily into the microphone. Voters polled immediately after the debate actually gave the match to Gore. But by then the sigh had begun to percolate through the media ecosystem, fueled by the enterprising efforts of Bush’s media team (“I don’t think it really would’ve become an issue if we hadn’t built it into one,” McKinnon told me). “I thought if you looked at Al Gore there,” William Kristol said that night on Fox News, “you thought back to the smartest kid in class who was always raising his hand, sighing audibly when you made a mistake.”

By the following day, the sigh had warranted a segment on the Daily Show. By the next, it was appearing in headlines, and polls showed viewers reconsidering, giving the debate to Bush. The vice president who faced Bush again ten days later had lost the air of aggressive intellectualism, but in the house-of-mirrors logic of political commentary this only mired him further in an unflattering narrative: he was now a man flailing to escape his own mistakes.

The thing people tend to forget about this saga is that Gore’s sigh wasn’t really a gaffe—it was part of his strategy. At the time, Gore was widely considered one of the toughest rhetorical combatants in the Democratic Party, and he had gone into the debate aiming to intimidate Bush the way he had successfully rattled Bill Bradley during the primaries. Where Gore, like Gingrich’s partisans, erred was in believing that this mattered. What Bush and McKinnon understood was that the general election debates were not really about winning on the merits—they were about trying on Bush’s commander-in-chief persona, and undermining his opponent’s. James Fallows, an ardent student of presidential rhetoric, has noted that Bush was in fact a dexterous debater in his gubernatorial races back in Texas. But by the fall of 2000, he had sanded his presence at the podium down to a blunt object: he projected strength, certainty, and little else. And it worked.

That Bush was able to close the gap with Gore in the debates was also because an unusually large number of voters, rightly or (in retrospect) wrongly, saw little difference between the two candidates. The stakes were thought to be so low, the actual issues hashed out in the first debate—judicial appointments, long-term funding plans for Social Security—so arcane to the average viewer, that an unusually large number of voters were actually in the position of having their vote swayed by a sigh.

Ironically, the Republican hopefuls’ anti-Obama hyperbole has all but guaranteed that this will not be the kind of election Gingrich or anyone else could actually win with a debate. It’s unthinkable that by the October showdowns, anyone remotely sympathetic to claims about socialism and shariah law would not have decided who to vote for.

Charles Homans is a special correspondent for The New Republic.

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32 comments

"Dumb person's idea of a smart person" -- truer now than ever before.

- zuludown

January 26, 2012 at 12:33am

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Hard to tell, but Obama seems t learn from mistakes and improve as he goes along. Cunning may still defeat intelligent, but Gingrich may be headed for a much bigger fall than anyone forsees. For one thing, probably the last thing Gingrich wants (in a sense he is like Palin here) is to actually BE President. Gingrich likes the idea of WINNING the Presidency, but the idea of actually being a President on a day to day do the drudge work may not be (any more than it is for Palin) what he really wants.

- skahn

January 26, 2012 at 12:40am

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What skahn said. I think the ghost at the feast is actually Gingrich's ultimate refusal of the presidency as too much work.

- ironyroad

January 26, 2012 at 1:21am

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I think the principle emerging from this short piece is right: that beyond demonstrating factual and argumentative competence, the presidential debates are not really debates but rather show cases for personal projection calculated to win voters' confidence. But I also think Homans is entirely too sanguine in his application of this principle to the skilled demagoguery of Gingrich. Gingrich, so adept at channeling so much of the frustration and anger abroad in your land, could well on Homans's own conception of the debates "win" them agsinst Obama, especially if economic conditions trend down, exacerbating that very frustration and anger. And, contra Homans, this, I'd argue, could matter a great, scary deal. Another thing: I would take no comfort, were I an American, from my idle speculations that Gingrich really doesn't want to be president. (He's working plenty hard in the campaigning he's now doing.) Rather, I'd be afraid of the prospect of a Gingrich presidency, I find him both formidable and frightening, and would as an American citizen do all I could to work against him should he get the nomination, which he's got a real shot at by reason in big part of the Republican debates mattering.

- basman

January 26, 2012 at 2:14am

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Bush projected clueless swagger in the debates, which is exactly what the Republican base and some independents want. These people are terrified of the intellect. That's a main reason why they so desperately want Obama out of office. They're like the Russian peasants who struck out in fear against the city folks who actually came to help them in the 1870's. They think somebody's pulling a fast one on them. When you don't practice thinking, that's always possible.

- magboy47.

January 26, 2012 at 2:35am

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I think Obama wins on dignity - the American people do not like immature clowns for President.I hypothesize that Bush 2 was given alot of unconscious credit in this way for the wife he had (a class act who he wisely treats with extravagent respect) and the sheen of his wealthy Protestent family. Either way, Obama's dignity gives him his own sort of power. Gingrich, fat, childish and petulant (with a ridiculous wife, a parody) is not dignified in any sense. I think this intangible is being underestimated. I think Gingrich is a very talented demogouge, but snide only gets you so far. I think he'd crumple without the hyenas in the audience and so does he. People smell fear and it repels them. He'd score a few points, but I still think Obama would smoke him on style alone, hands down.

- WandreyCer

January 26, 2012 at 6:28am

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I disagree with Homans. Not with his observations about the 1960 and 2000 elections, but their analogue to the 2012 election. What's the big difference? An incumbent president as a candidate. Gingrich being Gingrich, he will be disrespectful to Obama. Will that offend the marginal voter, who might see it as disrespectful to the office? Or will it reinforce the perception of the marginal voter that Obama weakens the office?

- rayward

January 26, 2012 at 8:18am

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And here's a related recommendation to Obama: eat. America likes its presidents tall and strong. Kennedy, as we now know, was one of our sickliest presidents, yet he was sold to the public in 1960 as athletic with lots of "vigor". Obama's wispy profile may well offset Gingrich's corpulent figure.

- rayward

January 26, 2012 at 8:46am

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Homans's idea is reinforced by Gingrich's recent likening of himself to Willie Stark, or more accurately, to Broderick Crawford's performance as Willie Stark in the movie version of All the King's Men. Few voters are old enough to remember Huey Long in the flesh; some might recall Crawford's mesmerizing take as Stark, loosely based on Long. Sooner or later, most voters will come to understand the latter-day Stark, Newt Gingrich. Dan

- dbuck1

January 26, 2012 at 9:14am

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There Have been "just two presidential elections that were arguably decided by debates: elections in which the candidate leading in the polls going into the debates ultimately lost the race." What about 1980 and Reagan over Cater?

- ehschepard@yahoo.com-old2

January 26, 2012 at 9:26am

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Gingrich is only convincing to people who have less knowledge them him on a particular subject and often that is someone who knows absolutely nothing. For instance, when he told John King that ABC had refused to talk to people who would contradict his ex-wife's complaints about him, it sounded convincing, but turned out not to be true. When Gingrich said that instead of lobbying, he was giving historical advice to Freddie Mac, that argument is only convincing if you have your head up your *ss.

- Nusholtz

January 26, 2012 at 10:09am

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Obama and Hillary went toe to toe through a series of debates and Obama more than held his own and I guarantee you that Hillary would wipe the floor with Gingrich. I would almost lay even money that Gingrich would call Obama a boy at least once in some debate and then pompously justify it as having nothing to do with race. Preaching to the choir is easy, the Presidential debates will be nothing like the ones in South Carolina (otherwise it would end up as a hootananny contest with partisan democrats and partisan republicans see who can out-applause each other). Obama is a Lawyer as well as a Professor, in that kind of debate he would destroy Gingrich (mostly because Gingrich offers so much to destroy)

- blackton

January 26, 2012 at 10:28am

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The problem with half of your theory about debates winning elections is that Bush did not WIN the 2000 election. Unless the Supreme Court was unduly influenced by Gore's sigh. Though of course Gore did "lose" the election with the help of the media by not fighting hard enough.

- chagedorn1

January 26, 2012 at 10:35am

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The republicans have been repeating the silly joke about Obama's only rhetorical ability being the use of a teleprompter so much that they've actually started to believe it. I don''t see anybody "mopping the floor" with anybody else, but the goopers that actually think Obama is anything but a formidable debate adversarty are in for a very sad awakening.

- Tristan

January 26, 2012 at 11:06am

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"There Have been "just two presidential elections that were arguably decided by debates: elections in which the candidate leading in the polls going into the debates ultimately lost the race. What about 1980 and Reagan over Cater?" I'm not sure about Reagan and Carter -- the single debate that year came in the midst of Carter's steady slide against Reagan in the ratings and simply accelerated the trajectory. The debate was Carter's last chance to pin the extremist label on Reagan, and in that sense was meaningful by assuring the public that Reagan was not the way Carter claimed him to be. But the debate didn't change the trajectory or outcome of the election. On the other hand, the 1976 debates between Ford and Carter DID contribute the Ford's narrow loss. That year, Ford was weighed down by bad ratings in the aftermath of Watergate, the collapse in Vietnam and the "stagflation" recession of 1974-75. Carter led him throughout the summer and early fall, until Ford started to surge after the Republican Convention and made it a close race. However, in the second of the three debates in early October, Ford committed a major gaffe by claiming that "there is no Soviet domination over Eastern Europe, and never will be under a Ford Administration". That statement not only abruptly arrested his rise in the polls, but also gave pause to many voters of Eastern European origin (a much larger constituency percentage-wise in 1976 than today) about Ford and his ability to contain and counteract Communist rule in Eastern Europe. With that pillar of the Nixon coalition knocked off-balance, Ford ended up losing a close race to Carter.

- wildboy

January 26, 2012 at 11:36am

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Exactly, Nush. Another example is when he claimed his tenure as Speaker "...produced 4 budget surpluses, the only such surpluses in our lifetimes." The problem is, unlike his claim that while he was Speaker the budget was not only balanced but we had a little scratch left over is only hald correct. Two of those years occurred after his fat ass was thrown out of Congress. As with Nush's example and countless others, Newt's claims are an almost uninterrupted stream of bullshit. Someone, I can't remember who (though Chris Hitchens comes to mind as a possibility) suggested that if someone gave Newt an enema 90% of him would dissapear. Just once during the debate with the President - should that evil man be the nominee - I want one of the moderators to call jim on his crap and refuse to back down until he admits whatever he just said was factually incorrect. I'd also like a pony.

- Tristan

January 26, 2012 at 12:07pm

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As to Reagan and Carter, what Wildboy said, and, in addition, the economy sucked, which political scientists who study these things say explains most election outcomes better than any other factor. (Debates usually figure much more prominently in pundits' "narratives" than in actual election outcomes.) One good thing about Gingrich debating Obama is that expectations would be much higher for Gingrich than they've been for any Repub candidate in my voting lifetime. Repubs have held their own, or even "won" debates by beating very low expectations, particularly in the case of W in 2000 and 2004. If I were Obama, I'd much rather debate Romney or Gingrich than Perry or Bachmann, precisely because those guys are supposed to be smart. Being seen as outsmarting smart people is a lot better than being seen as talking down to good old boys and salt of the earth folks who are far too decent to get a fancy education at some high-falutin' socialist training school like Harvard, and couldn't care less about mastering Upper West Side or Hyde Park cocktail party chatter. (Yes, I know, that W went to Yale and Hahvud, but he didn't learn anything there, so he preserved his essential decency, or fundamental denseness, if you want to see it that way.)

- GeoffG

January 26, 2012 at 12:25pm

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ehschepard - "There you go again." I still believe, if the hostage rescue had been successful or perhaps less disastrous, Reagan would not be a presidential memory.

- Bukharin

January 26, 2012 at 12:37pm

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GeoffG - "fundamental denseness.' LOL ^5!

- Bukharin

January 26, 2012 at 12:42pm

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GeoffG: "good old boys and salt of the earth folks who are far too decent to get a fancy education at some high-falutin' socialist training school like Harvard, and couldn't care less about mastering Upper West Side or Hyde Park cocktail party chatter." PERFECT! Not to forget that Obama has charm (which poor Al did not have, though I liked Al, but what do I know, I am what Geoff says) and he can flash an irresistible smile. I'd say O is going to wipe the floor with G's flabby *ss (a metaphor too horrendous to visualize...)

- Idefix

January 26, 2012 at 1:15pm

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Re: The OP -- depends on what you mean by "out-debate". In terms of throwing good sounding BS that doesn't really mean anything -- sure, Gingrich does that better than most people. He's completely amoral at this point -- a multiple adulterer, multiple divorcee, had to resign from the Speaker of the House in disgrace, yet he's willing to run for President and criticize other people's morals. So from the sheer "arguing propaganda" debate position, he's golden. Now, if you mean "debate" as in "honestly expressing policies that you believe in that would work", no, Gingrich doesn't have any of those. But for that to matter would require a moderator willing to moderate -- make judgements on truth or falsehood or even reasonableness. But our debates don't get those anymore.

- AllanL5

January 26, 2012 at 1:16pm

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Tris, I think that Hitchens used that enema line about the recently deceased Jerry Falwell in an appearance on "Hannity & Colmes" (IIRC, his exact words were, "If you gave him an enema, you could bury him in a matchbox"). I'm not sure if anyone used it about Newt, but whoever did (or does) would be right on target.

- wildboy

January 26, 2012 at 1:22pm

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One more point about Obama's debating skills -- I always fondly remember how he bitch-slapped John McCain in the first debate after McCain went on about how he was right about Iraq, the surge was working, etc and ect. Obama's response was something of a controlled snap, almost like an animal tamer's use of a whip on an unruly white tiger -- he rattled off three or four instances where McCain had been wrong about Iraq, claiming that there was definitely WMD, we would definitely be greeted as liberators, insurgents were no big deal, etc. It shut McCain up on the subject and really kind of deflated him for the whole debate, which was dedicated to McCain's supposed strong suit of foreign policy. McCain just got weirder for the two remaining debates and it was all downhill from there. Of course, this did nothing with regards to the election, as McCain and Palin were already about five feet down in the cemetary soil with just one more to go, but it was great moment in American democracy.

- wildboy

January 26, 2012 at 1:28pm

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I don't think Gingrich will actually win the debates, not because of Obama underestimating him. Far from it. I think Gingrich will not be able to contain his inner snarkiness and lack of anger control to keep himself from making major gaffes and counterfactual statements or outright lies. Obama should remain Presidential in the debates and in his level manner and effective cadence, deliver rebuttals to Gingrich's bloviating. Sure Gingrich can come up with great zingers against his debate opponents but then the guy literally gives himself too much rope with which to hang himself with. It's one thing to pander and toss red meat to the hardcore base that attends and watches the GOP debates (now entering it's 600th episode it seems like) and quite another to actually have substantive things to say to the wider audience of the general election. This is the venue where Gingrich's own worse debate enemy will be himself and his outsized, corpulent ego.

- singlspeed

January 26, 2012 at 1:47pm

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One of the interesting things in the 2008 debates was that Obama regularly addressed McCain as "John," while McCain called Obama "the senator." Obama's note of friendly equality clearly rattled McCain from time to time, as if he wanted to demand more respect but couldn't think how to do it. If Obama calls Gingrich "Newt," and Gingrich has to say "Mr President," it's going to set up an interesting dynamic, because I can quite imagine our portly friend getting a tad more irritated than McCain did. Also, I echo Tristan above: the Republican base have really bought into this Obama-needs-a-teleprompter legend as if it's a proven fact rather than a kind of political cartoon.

- ironyroad

January 26, 2012 at 2:49pm

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Maybe most of you all are right on the point of Gingrich's getting beaten badly in debates with Obama--a lot of good points have been made. But then again I'm not the kind of guy who says I told you so, even though before I did argue that Gingrich could emerge as a serious alternative to Romney after he first ascended and then fell and before he rose again. I agree of course we need to distinguish between his present audience and the American electorate, which elected W twice, but Gingrich is I think smart enough to modulate his pitch for general purposes if and after he gets the nomination. One other point: I have seen some respectable commentators saying if the economy is bad come next fall either Ginrgrich or Romney stand to win the presidency, and in that assessment Gingrich as outlier candidate falls off the table. Just saying.

- basman

January 26, 2012 at 3:09pm

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Well, my homeboy Ted Nugent says that Newt is "the smartest guy out there." So I could believe the Nuge, or I could believe you bicoastal elitists.

- aanassar

January 26, 2012 at 5:55pm

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As blakton says, "Preaching to the choir is easy". I saw Obama single-handedly take on most of the Republican caucus in the run-up to the passage of the ACA in a televised session with them. He acquited himself very admirably, facing scores of hostile interrogators, and handling them very well. Handling one Gingrich will not be that difficult a task.

- Haole45

January 26, 2012 at 5:57pm

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Haole45 You realize I'm descended from royalty. My third cousin's step father was the Duke of Earl. So disagreeing with me is potentially treasonable. If you ever venture into the Dukedom, tread lightly and with care

- basman

January 26, 2012 at 6:09pm

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Re - the teleprompter. Watched a clip of GOP midwestern and union bustin' golden boy Scott Walker delivering his state of the state. There, in front of his too-close-together eyes was a teleprompter. There's a lot on substance that the right can hit Obama on, but the teleprompter, the putting the feet on the desk, getting out of town on the weekends - evey President in the modern age has done it. I went on the W.H tour a few weeks ago. Had my step-father-in-law with me, bitching about how we might as well tear the White House down because Obama is never there (this was a Saturday). I finally had to let go. "Yes, he leaves town on the weekends. Like all Presidents. George Bush was reading "My Pet Goat" to kids in Florida while Al Qaeda was flying jets into the World Trade Center. On a weekday"

- dubyadoubte

January 26, 2012 at 8:17pm

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@ basman: Ayyiii! Mea culpa! I recant! Spare me, m'lord! Theriousthly though, although I've sort of hoped that Gingrich might might win out in the nomination race, believing that he'd be a weaker candidate in the general than would be Romney, I'd sure feel stupid if Gingrich not only won the nomination, but the presidency as well. (At least I'd have the consolation of knowing that all my wishing and urging was without actual effect, as I have no possibility of influencing to any degree the outcome. But, best be careful as to what you wish for, as they say.) BTW, where lay the bounds of your excellency's Dukedom? Hoping to keep my head, I'll steer clear.

- Haole45

January 26, 2012 at 10:28pm

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Haole45 Actually, I may be the guy who has to eat humble crow after lauding Gingrich's demagogic skills as very worry-making. I watched the debate tonight and Gingrich, my vaunted debater, was really lousy. Flat, undisciplined, beaten like a rented mule and taking ludicrous positions--colonize the moon anyone. So the mea culpa might have to be mine.

- basman

January 26, 2012 at 11:42pm

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