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Go Home The Odious Musings of Gunter Grass

POLITICS APRIL 5, 2012

The Odious Musings of Gunter Grass

BY JEFFREY HERF

This week, the editors of the Süddeutsche Zeitung, a liberal Munich newspaper, published a diatribe—in the form of a poem—by the well-known German author Gunter Grass. Entitled “Was gesagt werden muss” (“What must be said”), the poem denounced a possible Israeli attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities. Grass wrote that “my origin” in Germany is “laden with a never to be overcome burden,” namely the crimes of the Nazi regime against the Jews, and that he had therefore been “silent” about the policies of Israel, “a country to which I am bound and will remain bound.” But, Grass explained, he was now willing to break that silence and say that the “nuclear power Israel” threatens world peace—because if he waited any longer to speak out “it could be too late.” Suggesting that Israel was contemplating a “first strike” with nuclear weapons against Iran—which “could extinguish the Iranian people”—and that a submarine which Israel had received, or will receive, from Germany would be used for such a first strike, Grass said that Germany could be “deliverer of a crime” and would thus share in the guilt of this possible crime. He criticized the German government for providing the submarine, “whose specialty consists in the ability to deliver all-annihilating warheads to a country in which the existence of even a single atom bomb remains unproven.”

Here is a rough translation of several verses of “Was gesagt werden muss”:

Why do I remain silent, silent for so long

about what is obvious and has been practiced in military games

at whose end we would all be footnotes as survivors?

 

It is the assertion of a right to a first strike,

which could extinguish the Iranian people, who have been oppressed

by show-offs and manipulated to participate in organized cheering, because

in their power sphere there are suspicions that an atom bomb is being built.

 

Further, why do I refrain from calling another country by its name,

one in which for years a nuclear potential has been growing, in secret,

beyond control because no examinations are allowed?

I feel that the general silence about this state of affairs,

of which my silence is a part, is a burdening lie and compulsion.

It is the prospect that one faces punishment and will be immediately despised:

the verdict of “anti-Semitism” is familiar.

 

Now, however, I am saying what must be said because my country is the country of  crime without comparison.

More and more, my country is confronted with this crime.

But now in a calculated commercial transaction

with a smooth talking manner in which it invokes the discourse of restitution [for the crimes of the Nazi era]

it will deliver another submarine to Israel.

Its specialty consists in the ability to deliver all-annihilating warheads to a country

in which the existence of even a single atom bomb remains unproven.

In this situation fear and suspicion displace evidence.

The poem is, to put it bluntly, morally obtuse and politically embarrassing. Having reversed the arrows of causation, Grass says nothing about the hatred of Israel that the Iranian regime has publicly expressed since 1979, about its specific threats to “wipe it off the map” in the past decade, or the vicious Jew-hatred that is a steady diet of its propaganda. Apparently he has not read the most recent reports of the International Atomic Energy Agency that confirm Iran’s efforts to build nuclear weapons. Nor does Grass understand that the purpose of missile-carrying submarines is to ensure the credibility of a second strike should Iran or any other power attack Israel first. These submarines are essential for a stable system of deterrence. No Israeli leader has spoken about delivering a first strike with nuclear weapons that would “extinguish” the Iranian people. All of this comes from a man who was “silent” for five decades of his very successful literary career about the fact that as a young man he was a member of the Waffen SS at the end of World War II.

The idea, put forward by Grass, that there is a taboo in German intellectual and political life about criticizing Israel and its policies has been a favorite theme of Israel’s critics since the 1960s. But the taboo does not exist. There has been no silence in Germany, especially in such places as Der Spiegel or the Süddeutsche Zeitung, not to mention among intellectual and political forces to their left, for many decades. On the contrary, hostility to both Israel and the United States, and the view that these two countries are the major threat to world peace, became embedded in the German left-wing and left-liberal mainstream many decades ago. In this sense, Grass’s diatribe is part of a long established conventional wisdom. It takes neither courage nor intelligence to run with the mob. Grass’s poem seeks to make the mob yell even louder.

Fortunately, Grass has a significant number of critics in Germany. Henryk Broder, author of a recent and incisive polemic entitled “Forget Auschwitz: On the Final Solution of the Israel Question,” correctly describes Grass as the “prototype of an educated anti-Semite,” one who presents himself as a friend of the Jews yet seeks to undermine Israel’s capacity to defend itself. Richard Herzinger, in a withering essay in Die Welt, dissects the strategic ignorance in Grass’s poem and compares Grass’s argument to Nazism’s presentation of the Jews as advocates of mass murder. Josef Joffe in Die Zeit sets the record straight regarding the German delivery of a submarine to Israel and sees the Grass publication as evidence that the anti-Semitic argument that “the Jew is guilty” is again part of public discussion in Germany. Grass critics also include Frank Schirmmacher, the editor of the cultural pages of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung; Clemens Wergin, in Die Welt; and Michael Naumann and Malte Lehming, both in the Berlin-based Tagesspiegel.

It is important to recall that Grass’s confusions about international politics are a matter of long standing. During the heated debate in the 1980s about whether or not to proceed with NATO’s deployments of intermediate-range nuclear weapons in West Germany, Grass called for “resistance” against the United States. At a national conference of the Social Democratic Party in 1983, he said that “there is no great difference between the cynical disregard of basic ethical values” that took place at the Wannsee Conference (which laid the basis for implementing the “final solution”) and “the cynicism that in our day produces war games simulating nuclear combat with projections of here fifty, there eighty million dead.” Agreement to deployments on German soil, he said, would commit West Germany to “nothing less than calculated genocide.”

In 1983, as in 2012, Grass’s offensive analysis disregarded the chains of causation that led to a political crisis. Then, he ignored the Soviet pressure created by its nuclear build-up just as he now ignores the significance of the Iranian threats to Israel. Then, he claimed that it was the United States and the Western alliance that was the cause of a possible genocide; now, he blames Israel for threatening world peace and planning a genocide of the Iranian people. Now, as 30 years ago, he suggests that democracies seeking to defend themselves against dictatorships are the cause of crises which could be overcome if only they would turn away from dangerous policies. In both cases, he did not say “what must be said” about the real threats to peace and freedom.

Jeffrey Herf, a professor of modern European history at the University of Maryland in College Park, is the author most recently of Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World.

Correction: This article originally stated that Grass concealed his membership in an SS youth group. In fact, he concealed his membership in the Waffen SS. We regret the error.

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614 comments

"All of this comes from a man who was 'silent' for five decades of his very successful literary career about the fact that as a young man he was a member of an SS youth group at the end of World War II." I don't know if this is entirely a fair representation of the case. Grass did refer to this part of his youth -- he was 17 when he was conscripted to the Waffen-SS in 1945 -- in an interview early in his career (the mid-1960s?) but the admission dropped out of sight. Decades later, he wrote a long account of the experience of being conscripted to the Reich Labor Service and then to the Waffen-SS in the war's final months in his 2006 memoir Peeling the Onion. I disagree with Grass vehemently on this occasion but I think the 1945 point is a bit weak. Where there is a real basis for criticism, it is Grass's hypocrisy in taking the position now that he was basically a teenager when he was conscripted, when back in 1985 he attacked Ronald Reagan's visit to Bitburg cemetery on the grounds that he was honoring the Waffen-SS graves there (Reagan's position on that controversial act was, at least in part, that many had been teenagers when they were conscripted).

- ironyroad

April 6, 2012 at 2:32pm

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Any graves under the aegis of the Waffen SS should not have been honored by any US president. Sorry, but I don't see where Grass is being "hypocritical". Reagan's visiting those grave sites paid some homage, or could be seen as paying homage, to the Waffen SS, intentionally or not. Reagan & his handlers should have been more alert to the symbolic implications. I do agree that making a big deal out of the fact that Grass may have served in that notorious unit for short time toward the end of the war is misguided however, given that under the circumstances Grass did not really have any choice, unless you expect a 17 year old raised in the mileu of Nazi Germany to have the sort of moral clarity & selfless sense of purpose that we may expect of saints, but generally not ordinary people.

- Haole45

April 6, 2012 at 3:14pm

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The troubles of the Middle East have allowed a certain kind of German to be anti-semitic again, and with the comfort of being morally righteous against "oppressor Israel." This is an intellectual disease of the German left, and it is an old story. The first classic terrorist act of the New Left in West Berlin, by the Tupamaros-West Berlin in late 1969, was against a Jewish (not Israeli, Jewish) community center. The head of the Jewish community in Germany was specifically targetted in the 1970s by a radical-left German group for assassination (can you imagine?); it was on grounds of his alleged crimes against humanity since he was a supporter of Israel. Another classic example is Winfried Bose, of the Revolutionary Cells (RZ), who found himself at Entebbe in 1976 separating out Jews (not Israelis, Jews) from the rest of the highjacked passengers for special disposition. The Jews included a survivor of Auschwitz. Why not? It was only 30 years later. Bose called himself an idealist. One must in general also ask--why, of ALL the liberation movements in ALL the world, does the German left choose to establish its closest and most emotional ties with the Palestinians, with their vicious sewer-stream of anti-semitic propaganda? Why aren't the super-humanitarian German Leftists repelled by this?

- ProfEthan

April 6, 2012 at 3:48pm

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http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,826007,00.html SPIEGEL ONLINE columnist Jan Fleischhauer writes: "Grass once again wants to prove himself right, for deeply personal reasons. He belongs to a generation of men who have never gotten over the fact that they began their careers on the wrong side of history. It is understandable: Membership in the Waffen-SS is normally not a great beginning for a career as keeper of the global conscience. Were I to have joined the Nazi military at age 15, I too would likely be a bit wary of criticizing Holocaust survivors. But that is exactly the problem: Humility was never Grass' thing. His expertise lies more in self-righteousness." "Those on the right sought moral cleansing by minimizing their own crimes. Those on the left took a different path. Instead of denying their misdeeds, they put them on full display, thus clearing their names. The message, in other words, is: 'We Germans have learned our lesson from the Holocaust, it is time that the Jews do so as well.'" "The second step in this transformation of guilt is establishing a new perpetrator. One needs a fair bit of fantasy to portray Iran as the victim of Israeli extermination plans, but such a spin follows a tortured logic. If the Jews are the real aggressors, then one's own guilt isn't as great. This moral shift grants one a clear conscience to provide moral instruction to others." "Obstinacy increases with age, but so too does the urge to offset guilt. It isn't all that long ago that Grass allowed himself a strange Holocaust comparison in which he set the six million Jewish Holocaust victims against six million dead German soldiers. Now we know that this calculation was no blunder, rather it was what one refers to as a Freudian slip."

- noga1

April 6, 2012 at 3:53pm

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http://www.signandsight.com/features/434.html A revealing -- in lots of ways -- interview from 2005 on the failed Jewish Community Center bombing, German antisemitism, and the so-called Tupomaros-West Berlin groupuscule.

- ironyroad

April 6, 2012 at 4:23pm

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ProfEthan: "Another classic example is Winfried Bose..." The situation vis-a-vis Israelis and Jews being singled out at Entebbe, and the actions of Bose, are more complicated than that. http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/setting-the-record-straight-entebbe-was-not-auschwitz-1.372131

- mrheckman

April 6, 2012 at 4:57pm

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Hitler's rationalization for trying to exterminate the Jews was that they were engaged in an international racist conspiracy to exterminate "his people" first. Grass seems to suggest here that Israel, with the U.S.'s help, might preemptively exterminate the Iranian people. This is proof that, just because a world-famous writer says something, it's not necessarily true. Nations, including Israel and the U.S., have a right to defend themselves on a second-strike basis, and there is no evidence that a U.S. submarine in Israeli hands will automatically produce a first strike against anybody. That's Hitler-type paranoia. That said, there turned out to be some justification for the alarm that Grass expressed in 1983 about nuclear weapons in Europe. NATO war games in that year, code-named Able Archer, came within an eyelash of wiping out the earth in a nuclear holocaust. The Soviets were terrified that the computerized exercise was the real thing, and then, when one of the computers in their new air-defense system mistakenly interpreted the sun shining on clouds as one of the Pershing missiles that were "fired" in the exercise, it told human operators to fire back with real warheads and start World War III. Fortunately, a heroic Soviet human in charge at the time, Stanislav Petrov, decided that one "missile" was not an all-out attack on the Soviet Union and refused to initiate a response that would have heavily radiated our planet and maybe killed hundreds of millions of people. For his refusal to obey his computer, Petrov was fired and put out to pasture with a small pension (this demonstrates the difference between the negative outlook on life that dominates in Russia, as opposed to the generally positive attitude of Americans). But Petrov's a hero who may have saved the lives of some of the people on this site--and countless other sites--in the widest sense of the word "site." As for Grass being conscripted into an S.S. youth group, it means nothing. I've seen films of German 12-year-old boys and 60-year-old women firing anti-tank weapons in combat in 1945. "Conscripted" is the key word here. Remember, the Pope joined the Hitler Youth simply because of peer pressure. Children have a hard time resisting the call to duty by others.

- magboy47.

April 6, 2012 at 5:00pm

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Gunter has it backwards. The reason why he is read, the reason he is listened to at all is that he is a "reformed Nazi." Can anyone imagine his getting the Nobel for a couple of decent novels? No, he got it because he was once upon a time a Nazi. And has been playing the "reformed Nazi" since the late 40's. Like most European intellectual antisemites he blames Jews for the hatred they call up in him. (Think of Nikos Kazantzakis, think of Jose Saramago, etc.) Could be that these old Jew haters feel a little younger when they can go back to their youthful Jew-hatred. In any case, old Gunter's ass will soon be grass. Also, why is it that so many Nobel prize laureates are antisemites?

- arnon1

April 6, 2012 at 5:25pm

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"(Think of Nikos Kazantzakis," I think you mean Mikis Theordorakis.

- noga1

April 6, 2012 at 5:39pm

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Right, Mikis Theodorakis.

- arnon1

April 6, 2012 at 5:41pm

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About Jose Saramago: http://blog.z-word.com/2008/12/jose-saramago-on-israelis/

- noga1

April 6, 2012 at 5:52pm

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I urge everyone to read the Sight-and-Sound article from 2005 referred to by Ironyroad: http://www.signandsight.com/features/434.html But the hardly "complicates" the issue of the Nov. 1969 bombing of the Jewish Community Center in Berlin. If anything it makes the event more chilling. The interview with Tilman Fichter, brother of and co-conspirator with the person who planted the bomb, is very revealing concerning the moral blindness about anti-semitism of the German far-left both in 1969, a moral blindness that was continuing at the time of publication (2005). Yes, the (defective) bomb was supplied by a police undercover operative--in order to prevent the T-WB from getting a real one. This happens all the time in undercover work; there are recent examples here in the States. But...the intent to destroy was supplied by the bombers, no one else. That's the point. The prominent historian of Nazism Goetz Ali says: "The 68'ers were wretchedly similar to their parents." Gunter Grass is a good example of that. Oh, wait a minute--HE was in the actual SS!

- ProfEthan

April 6, 2012 at 6:28pm

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Oh--Tilman Fichter claims in the S&S article that he didn't know about the bomb itself, he just helped his brother escape to Sweden after the incident,

- ProfEthan

April 6, 2012 at 6:32pm

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Ethan, I'm inclined to believe Fichter's story on that -- he had pretty much contempt for Kunzelmann (whom, curiously enough, I interviewed briefly in the 1980s as a Green Party political figure in West Berlin); he saw him as the perpetrator, and was probably inclined to avoid thinking about his brother as implicated to that degree. arnon, before we start reading every word that Grass wrote over fifty years back through the "poem" of recent days, I think that there's some remarkable probing of the German mentality before, during, and after the Nazi era achieved in novels such as Dog Years, The Tin Drum, Cat and Maus, and Local Anaesthetic (it's a long time since I read that novel, but isn't there a neat satirical portrait of the high school teacher who is in her view redeeming her own former Nazi past as a young girl by egging on the kids' student movement anti-war radicalism?) As far as antisemitic Nobel recipients go, one could toss in Hamsun, maybe Kipling, possibly Hemingway, and why would one leave out Eliot?

- ironyroad

April 6, 2012 at 7:07pm

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Fichter's story is (to me) too self-serving, Irony: he presents himself as innocent of the bombing itself, though Kunzelmann and Fichter's brother were the perpetrators and Fichter was a member of the (small) commune, and Fichter helped his brother escape Germany after the bombing, and though he admits he was surrounded in his Tupamaro-WB days by raving anti-semites. For those who wish to argue that these anti-semitic (not [merely] anti-Zionist: anti-semitic) terrorists of the far left were isolated on the Left in the late 1960s and thus little should be made of them either concerning the Left as it was then or about the Left now, I am struck by Fichter's statement about the anti-semite terrorist Kunzelmann: "[He was living] in a supposedly secret flat of the Tupamaros West Berlin which was known to everyone in the leftist scene." It's clear that overt anti-semitism was tolerated from the first in the German New Left. And that means that Grass's latest piece stands in a long tradition, and makes sense within that tradition. Of course, this is pretty shocking. Something similar must explain the "Boycott Israel and Israeli Academics" movement that is so big in Britain among "humanitarian" leftists who do NOT want to boycott, says, academics from the Sudan, Iran, or China--infinitely worse human-rights violators. I'm gonna ask this again: why, of ALL the liberation movements in ALL the world, does the German left choose to establish its closest and most emotional ties with the Palestinians, who have their own vicious sewer-stream of anti-semitic propaganda? Why aren't the super-humanitarian German Leftists repelled by this? Does anyone have any views on this question.

- ProfEthan

April 6, 2012 at 7:53pm

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We might glean a possible answer for this enigma from something the Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwish, in a moment of unguarded candour, said: "Do you know why we Palestinians are famous? Because you are our enemy. The interest in us stems from the interest in the Jewish issue. The interest is in you, not in me. So we have the misfortune of having Israel as an enemy. And we have the good fortune of having Israel as our enemy, because the Jews are the centre of attention."

- noga1

April 6, 2012 at 9:27pm

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Maybe you're right, but something can be self-serving and also true, Ethan. Life isn't a streamlined narrative. As regards the German left, I would say that the closest emotional ties went in different directions (I mean "the left" here as left of the Social Democrats): Palestine, yes, but also the IRA, the Black Panthers, the Sandinistas, Cuba, the Basques. Some genuine causes (Nicaragua especially) in there too. It's also the case that the militant groups carrying out armed or otherwise violent action lost support increasingly over the 1980s in particular and by 1990 various campaigns for prisoner release and the like got little enthusiastic support among the left outside of a vocal minority. And something else I only just remembered -- around 1992 there was a unexpected exchange of letters between the president of the Central Jewish Council in German, Ignaz Bubis, and a leading left militant (I can't remember who) who was in prison -- the subject was whether they could agree that a resurgence of Nazi-like politics was on the agenda as an immediate danger, and if they could reach consensus on how to handle such a threat. So there were indeed complications to some of this history -- leaving aside the militant lunatics, there was a lot of inherited cultural crap to fight in Germany in the 1960s and one noticed after 1990 how much of it had survived in the GDR. Convinced of their own anti-fascist credentials, much of the German left did not see itself as anti-semitic (you can see that in the Entebbe memoir, as regards Bose). That may be something rather surreal or ludicrous or simply unacceptable from your or even my perspective, admittedly, but it is at least a rational explanation. If you genuinely believe you are not X to yourself, you are not being disingenuous or hypocritical if you deny accusations of X from the outside.

- ironyroad

April 6, 2012 at 9:28pm

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I had told Darwish to keep his mouth shut about that, and as you can imagine I was pretty steamed up. I lost the rag a bit and shouted at him, "I told you not to mention the fact that the Jews are the center of attention!" And he just looked all indignant and said, "That's what I did -- I said, 'not to mention that the Jews are the center of attention'." So I just looked at him, and said: "And you're supposed to be a poet, an effing wordsmith. I give up!"

- ironyroad

April 6, 2012 at 11:32pm

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I've got two comments. 1. Mrheckman, above, refers in his post to the interview with the ex-hostage Ilan Hartuv in today's Haaretz, as if this interview complicates the issue of radical left German anti-semitism. It doesn't. Hartuv says that Wilfried Bose actually relented, but he also says that "the German Nazi woman" (the terrorist Brigitte Kuhlmann, like Bose a member of the radical-left "Revolutionary Cells",RZ) never did: she was abusive towards all Jews. Moreover, Hartuv says that while the Brazilian Jews who'd been separated out from the rest of the passengers and put with the Israelis were allowed back into the general hostage population, it was Kuhlmann, and not any Palestinian, who decided to keep back other Jews (two couples) with the Israelis. So we still have a German radical leftist in 1976 acting EXACTLY as a Nazi would toward Jews (that's Hartuv's description in today's newspaper); maybe it's not Bose, but it is certainly Kuhlmann. 2. But actually, how far can we trust Hartuv about Bose? Hartuv says in Haaretz that in his conversation with Bose, Bose said that he well understood that the Syrians at Tel al-Zaatar had killed more Palestinians than the Israelis ever had. This is odd. The Entebbe high-jacking was in early July 1976, with the rescue on July 4. The great Tel al-Zaatar massacre was on August 12--more than a month LATER. Now, the Tel al-Zaatar camp had been under siege for several months at the time of the high-jacking, and Palestinian civilians had been killed. But it's hard to believe that Bose was referring to this. The great massacre (2,000 Palestinian civilians in one day) was more than a month later, more than a month after Bose was dead. It was done by the besieging forces, which were Lebanese Christians, Falange. The Syrians, whom Hartuv has Bose in early July blaming for what seems the Tel al-Zaatar massacre, were minor players at Tel al-Zaatar, and played no role in the actual massacre. So one suspects that in this dramatic rendition of his conversation with Bose, Hartuv, who is in his 80s, is, well, not remembering accurately. Not that this is so important, because Brigitte Kuhlmann proves the point I've been making (and I guess Herf was making more indirectly), and proves it in spades, according to Hartuv's testimony. But even Bose's role in the separating out of Jews (not Israelis) from the rest of the passangers cannot be excluded.

- ProfEthan

April 6, 2012 at 11:34pm

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I have yet to encounter even one antisemite who owns up to being motivated by antisemitism when he or she fulminates about Jews/Israel. It's a very odd observation coming from ironyroad, odd in the sense that it is so obvious that I have to wonder why even make it. Everyone has his own rational motivation which justifies whatever ills he may preach or commit. No one has ever admitted to themselves that they just want to do evil. There is always a good, noble cause for why anyone would want to kill anyone else. Muhamad Atta, in his own mind, was a good man. Captive minds are particularly adept at explaining their actions as aiming at the good. Robespierre thought he was a good man who was out for justice: "Par pitié, par amour pour l’humanité, soyez inhumains! ”

- noga1

April 6, 2012 at 11:39pm

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"Now, the Tel al-Zaatar camp had been under siege for several months at the time of the high-jacking, and Palestinian civilians had been killed. But it's hard to believe that Bose was referring to this. The great massacre (2,000 Palestinian civilians in one day) was more than a month later, more than a month after Bose was dead. It was done by the besieging forces, which were Lebanese Christians, Falange. The Syrians, whom Hartuv has Bose in early July blaming for what seems the Tel al-Zaatar massacre, were minor players at Tel al-Zaatar, and played no role in the actual massacre." Those massacres were awful events. I'd like to know if Mr. Grass has anything negative to say about the Syrian continuing massacre of Syrian civilians? We are talking about a figure approaching ten thousand according to the UN. Mr. Grass hasn't learned a fucking thing from WW2 and the near murder of a whole people!

- arnon1

April 6, 2012 at 11:49pm

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Eliot didn't win a Nobel, did he? Though he was indubitably an anti-Semite along with his modernist brethren Pound, Yeats and Joyce. The lot of them were a gang of proto-fascist twerps. They saw the bourgeoisie, exemplified by the Jew, and American industrial democracy as the enemy of Culture and saw themselves as court seers and high priests to a reconstituted dynasty of warrior kings. (That said, I admire the hell out of Ulysses even though I find Joyce's choice to make Bloom Jewish both telling and distasteful, and Yeats remains along with Wallace Stevens one of my two favorite poets.)

- AaronW

April 7, 2012 at 12:42am

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I stand corrected: Thomas Stearns Eliot, Nobel Prize for Literature, 1948. Should have Googled it first. I don't know how many literature Laureates have been anti-Semites, though it looks as if you count a handful with single Jewish parents and Harold Pinter, who I don't think identified himself as Jewish though it appears his parents both were, 13 winners have been Jews. Paul von Heyse (1910) Henri Bergson (1927) Boris Pasternak (1958) Shmuel Agnon (1966) Nelly Sachs (1966) Saul Bellow (1976) Isaac Bashevis Singer (1978) Elias Canetti (1981) Joseph Brodsky (1987) Nadine Gordimer (1991) Imre Kertész (2002) Elfriede Jelinek (2004) Harold Pinter (2005) And how fiercely does Philip Roth ache to add his name to that list? I reckon he deserves it for Sabbath's Theater alone, though I doubt he'll ever get it. He's too self-consciously American.

- AaronW

April 7, 2012 at 12:53am

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What is your point Aaron? Pasternak converted to Christianity as did Joseph Brodsky. Neither of them were Jews. Brodsky, to my mind was the greater poet.

- arnon1

April 7, 2012 at 1:07am

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"And how fiercely does Philip Roth ache to add his name to that list?" If he does it's because Saul Bellow got it. Roth reveres Bellow. " I reckon he deserves it for Sabbath's Theater alone, though I doubt he'll ever get it....." And for American Pastoral as well as "My Life as a Man." It's too bad the Nobel became the symbol of excellency since many, many undeserving writers were honored with the prize.

- arnon1

April 7, 2012 at 1:10am

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Ethan: "maybe it's not Bose, but it is certainly Kuhlmann." Isn't the idea that it doesn't matter who does what, provided you have the group identity, exactly the philosophy we are supposed to reject? That individual action, or individual rethinking of action, is very important? arnon: "It's too bad the Nobel became the symbol of excellency since many, many undeserving writers were honored with the prize." Yes. Noga, I think you're confusing prejudice with guilt, to some extent. I met a few people in Central/Eastern Europe and Russia back in the 90s who were very openly antisemitic in the sense that they they were nervous about and disliked Jews, and admitted it (or they were open about their theory that Jews behaved clannishly or occupied the professions or whatever back in the day). Nevertheless, they weren't anti-Israel, as far as I could judge. These were young people who were generally trying to clue themselves into what was going in the changed world but they had a lot of inherited prejudice. In contrast, the Germans had a lot of guilt rather than prejudice, because they were a civilized, moral culture who would not do the things they did (the super-ego says no), and of course prejudice is bad, so that toxic mix is more likely to produce a complex of denial and transferred hostility. Look at it this way -- the Central/Eastern European response is, Jews are making me feel guilty, but I don't like that, so I will, as a response to this pressure, remember why Jews annoyed my forebears. In stark contrast, the German response was, Jews are making me feel guilty, and this is legitimate because we murdered them, but that also confuses and angers me because (a) I belong to the people who murdered them and (b) I have rejected those people's identity, so I will resolve this psychic impasse by transferring my negative energies toward a displaced target, Israel, that is a state formation rather than my parents' persecuted fellow citizens.

- ironyroad

April 7, 2012 at 2:42am

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Aaron: "I find Joyce's choice to make Bloom Jewish both telling and distasteful" Why?

- ironyroad

April 7, 2012 at 2:47am

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Irony, your contributions to this discussion are precise and excellent. Your final a, b and c (so I will resolve...) and d (that is a state formation...) argument diagnoses very well the deplorable quandry many German and Austrian leftists are caught up in.

- kras

April 7, 2012 at 3:51am

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Well, because on my reading, a major theme, albeit one theme among thousands, is the ironic contrast between Bloom's petty vulgarity and Ulysses's mythic heroism, his petit-bourgeois modernity with the greatness of mankind's classical past, and in making his exemplar of fallen modernity a Jew, Joyce both drew upon and amplified some fairly rank stereotypes. It is interesting to note, though, that literature's first great Jewish wanker was not Portnoy, but Bloom.

- AaronW

April 7, 2012 at 7:48am

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Here is a view very different from aaronW's about Ulysses and Bloom. I linked to it in the past: http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/books/86541/the-tenth-man-2/ BTW, Leo Bloom was a convert to Christianity. Strictly or even loosely, speaking he was not Jewish. Now the question is why did Joyce, who himself had rejected Catholicism and religion, choose to convert his most celebrated protagonist?

- noga1

April 7, 2012 at 9:29am

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Yes, Krasmussen--Ironyroad's analysis of the psychology of the German hard left, posted at 2:42 a.m., makes sense to me too. It's not an accident that Gaza (with the fifth highest birthrate in the world) would be constantly compared to the Warsaw Ghetto (!) by the children of the actual perpetrators of the actual Warsaw Ghetto (with zero survivors). One must indeed ask why these people insist on equating Israelis with Nazis. This was asked in the 2005 Sight-and-Sound interview with Tilman Fichter, brother of the 1969 bomber of the Jewish Community Center in Berlin. I could find no public protest by Gunter Grass against either the Tel al-Zaatar massacre back in 1976 nor of the Assad massacres of this year. His focus is on Jews. As for anti-semites on the hard-left being individuals and not part of any group, the notorious and open anti-semite left-wing radical Dieter Kunzelmann, one of the Jewish Community Center bombers in 1969, was a representative for the radical Alternative List (AL) in the Berlin state parliament in the 1980s. This is discussed in the S&S interview as well. Horst Mahler, one of the founders of the Baader-Meinhoff group (Red Army Faction) was and still is a notorious anti-semite. Mahler, though, is now on the extreme right. But that shows the connection!

- ProfEthan

April 7, 2012 at 9:35am

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Anshel Pfeffer, in Haaretz, says it all: “Logic and reason are useless when a highly intelligent man, a Nobel laureate no less, does not understand that his membership in an organization that planned and carried out the wholesale genocide of millions of Jews disqualified him from criticizing the descendants of those Jews for developing a weapon of last resort that is the insurance policy against someone finishing the job his organization began,” But I fear, with tne New York Times, that publication of Grass' despicable poem has now empowered the expression of explicit anti-semitism in Germany. I fear that Grass has found the key to open the floodgates for the hitherto repressed-through-guilt anti-semitism (made worse and embittered through that very guilt): it will now spew forth powerfully with (at last!) exuberant freedom to express itself from both the German left and the right. (I assume readers will understand the sarcasm in that final phrase...)

- ProfEthan

April 7, 2012 at 10:09am

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It goes like this: We Germans committed one, if not the worst, crime of calculated extermination of an entire people. We did not fully succeed. We, the Germans, have reformed and taught ourselves to regard that crime for what it was and we have done our mea culpa, repeatedly, over it. Therefore, we, the perpetrators, more than any other nation, are qualified to recognize the genocidal spirit when we see it. We have become expert humanists, as a result of our own genocidal history. Who but us, then, is more suited to diagnose and warn against, future atrocities of similar magnitude? Surely not our former victims who, naturally, are the inheritors of of the genocidal spirit our fathers and grandfathers actuated. It would have been more befitting of the survivors of that genocide to simply melt away and never be heard of again. Since they refused to do that it is left to us, the descendants of genociders, to warn the world that what we are dealing with here is a potential genocide. If you want a somewhat humdrum and partial, analogy think about a group of convicted rapists getting organized as an NGO to fight against violence against women. They choose as their target a group of raped women who have taken up attending and practicing self-defense courses. The reformed rapists, in their new guise as protectors of women, warn society against such a violent solution as women acquiring the means and capabilities of protecting themselves against violence. _______________ Here is Alan Johnson, before the Grass stink bomb, trying to make sense of it all: http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/alan-johnson/entebbe-and-dueling-legacies-new-left "And, of course, the idea that Zionism is racism. For although today’s left-wing “anti-Zionists” are not about to repeat Böse’s hijacking, they do share his campist view. And because inside their heads the abstract symbol of evil “Israel” confronts the equally abstract symbol of good “Palestine” they can’t quite bring themselves to condemn Hamas, who must be “anti-imperialists” even as rockets are fired at Jewish school children. And they hold aloft placards reading “We are all Hezbollah” even as that organization acts as a proxy for an Iranian regime that seeks to wipe Israel off the map. Their campist mind-set shapes everything. They can’t quite accept the killing of OBL, or distinguish between the Taliban and the Coalition in Afghanistan, or admit the success of the surge in Iraq, or acknowledge the existence of Salam Fayyad and the promise of Fayyadism, lest they commit the ultimate sin and “give succor to imperialism.” But Böse was not the Left and the Left was not Böse. Hearing about the selection of the Jews at Entebbe by his comrade, an astonished Joschka Fischer began his own long journey back from madness. (Paul Berman has written that “Fischer never seems to have gotten over the shock of Entebbe.”) Open self-recrimination and painful rethinking led him to develop a decent, antitotalitarian, and social democratic leftism. Later, as German foreign secretary, he was comfortable standing up for a Palestinian state while angrily confronting Yasir Arafat in person about the bombing of a Tel Aviv disco. This is the other legacy of the ’68ers—the spread of a human rights culture, a refusal to accept the exclusion of minorities, liberal interventionism in the face of enormity, mutual recognition and two states for two traumatized peoples in Israel and Palestine, and the search for a global covenant in a world of staggering inequalities."

- noga1

April 7, 2012 at 10:46am

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Sorry to write three entries in a row! But I couldn't resist making one other point. The German left, which mobilized fiercely against Israel's Gaza operation in 2009--mass demonstrations, furiously speeches of condemnation, etc.--has had ZERO to say about 7,500 civilian dead this year in Syria. This figure is FIFTEEN TIMES the civilian dead in Gaza. But there have been NO mass demonstrations, NO vigils in front of the Syrian embassy, NO petitions, NO ferocious speeches of condemnation. The few pathetic Syrian exile demonstrators before the Syrian embassy in Germany have been alone. Why this total lack of response in Germany to massive civilian deaths in Syria in 2012, if the issue on the German Left was the moral protest of alleged humanitarian violations in 2009? I'm afraid the obvious answer to this contradictory behavior is: because the issue wasn't then and isn't now humanitarian violations. It's...Jews.

- ProfEthan

April 7, 2012 at 10:52am

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http://www.nationalreview.com/david-pryce-jones/295509/poisonous-poetry "Grass is blaming the Jews of Israel for taking steps to stay alive and also delighting those who still want to kill them — and that’s what must be said."

- noga1

April 7, 2012 at 11:04am

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AaronW “Well, because on my reading, a major theme, albeit one theme among thousands, is the ironic contrast between Bloom's petty vulgarity and Ulysses's mythic heroism, his petit-bourgeois modernity with the greatness of mankind's classical past, and in making his exemplar of fallen modernity a Jew, Joyce both drew upon and amplified some fairly rank stereotypes.” This is a complex issue and I am ambivalent about the cuckolded character Bloom. Robert Alter places Ulysses in what he considers is a modernJewish Canon: http://www.amazon.com/Canon-Creativity-Authority-Scripture-Rosenzweig/dp/0300084242/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1333813126&sr=8-1-fkmr0 Ruth Wisse too in her “The Jewish Canon says that Ulysses has a place in it because he influenced so many canonical Jewish Texts. http://www.amazon.com/The-Modern-Jewish-Canon-Language/dp/0226903184/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1333812956&sr=8-1

- arnon1

April 7, 2012 at 11:39am

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“But I fear, with tne New York Times, that publication of Grass' despicable poem has now empowered the expression of explicit anti-semitism in Germany. I fear that Grass has found the key to open the floodgates for the hitherto repressed-through-guilt anti-semitism (made worse and embittered through that very guilt): it will now spew forth powerfully with (at last!) exuberant freedom to express itself from both the German left and the right.” Prof. Ethan, This has been true for some time. It seems that Many Germans feel humiliated by the Shoah and don’t want to be reminded of it. One study shows that the more exposure students and teachers had to the Shoah in the classroom the more anti-Semitic they were liable to become. Attacking Israel lessens their guilt, or so they think. To me the hysterical attacks on Zionism makes their guilt all the more pronounced, since they are continuing the war against the Jews. I had asked above the same question about why when close to 10 thousand Syrians have been massacred by their own government these leftist hysterics they still continue to attack Israel. The answer seems obvious to me. The more they attack Israel, the more outrageous the charges become the more they feel “exonerated” by the history of anti-Semitism in Europe. Hitler’s big lie wasn’t only a rhetorical technique, it was above all a calculated move meant to disarm their enemies. Accuse people of some enormous false crime and the very fact that they have to defend outrageous charges makes them seem guilty. With the media it’s all about seeming and not being.

- arnon1

April 7, 2012 at 11:50am

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Arnon 1, unfortunately there seems to me to be a lot in what you say.

- ProfEthan

April 7, 2012 at 11:56am

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"I had asked above the same question about why when close to 10 thousand Syrians have been massacred by their own government these leftist hysterics they still continue to attack Israel. " _____________ There is a solidarity in the focus between those "Leftists" (pseudo-Leftists, if you ask me) and these mobs: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4208268,00.html "... a day after tens of thousands of people held a mass rally in Rabat to protest ... " What were they protesting on the last week of March 2012? Perhaps the continued mass-massacring of Syrian Muslims by Syria's regime? Not bloody likely. "During the march, demonstrators waved Palestinian flags and chanted "The people want to free al-Aqsa," and "A million martyrs are going to Jerusalem." They also burned Israeli flags. The Yedioth Ahronoth daily reported that Saranga, who was in Rabat for a Euro-Mediterranean Partnership conference, was taken out of the parliament building through a side door for fear that the protesters outside would attack him. " It's what Andre Gluckgmann called: "The Jerusalem Syndrome": "On the scales of world opinion, some Muslim corpses are light as a feather, and others weigh tonnes. Two measures, two weights. The daily terrorist attacks on civilians in Baghdad, killing 50 people or more, are checked off in reports under the heading of miscellaneous, while the bomb that took 28 lives in Qana is denounced as a crime against humanity. Only a few intellectuals ...find this surprising. Why do the 200,000 slaughtered Muslims of Darfur not arouse even half a quarter of the fury caused by 200-times fewer dead in Lebanon? Must we deduce that Muslims killed by other Muslims don't count - whether in the eyes of Muslim authorities or viewed through the bad conscience of the west?"

- noga1

April 7, 2012 at 12:23pm

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Glucksmann's article can be found on the (now lamentably defunct) Sign & Sight: http://www.signandsight.com/features/894.html

- noga1

April 7, 2012 at 12:24pm

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"Well, because on my reading, a major theme, albeit one theme among thousands, is the ironic contrast between Bloom's petty vulgarity and Ulysses's mythic heroism, his petit-bourgeois modernity with the greatness of mankind's classical past, and in making his exemplar of fallen modernity a Jew, Joyce both drew upon and amplified some fairly rank stereotypes." Honestly, Aaron. That leaves me a little . . . surprised. I had always read Bloom as Joyce's way of constructing an insider/outsider who is a different kind of figure from Stephen. Stephen is a middle-class Catholic but an outsider in Dublin by aesthetic willpower, so to speak, but Bloom is a somewhat unwilling "ethnic" outsider whose choices would probably be more like what Stephen is rebelling against. The irony of their meeting is at least in part their opposing desires to separate and/or to belong, their different "tracks" across Dublin.

- ironyroad

April 7, 2012 at 12:52pm

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It's déjà vu all over again: http://www.timesofisrael.com/germans-take-to-the-streets-in-support-of-gunter-grass/

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 7, 2012 at 1:07pm

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Noga, your NGO analogy is very good. I'd just refine it by making it "the children of convicted rapists" as the generational thing was crucial for the '68 left. Generally, it's not only the absence of demonstrations against the Syrian government by the German left that's noticeable, but by Syrian and other Middle Easterners in Europe too. But if you glance at the paper closest to the broad Left/Green swathe in Germany, die tageszeitung (Taz for short), it has covered the Syrian crisis very effectively and has also consistently interviewed people (both Germans and Syrian exiles) connected with the anti-Assad forces who are organizing in Berlin and other cities.

- ironyroad

April 7, 2012 at 1:15pm

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" I'd just refine it by making it "the children of convicted rapists" as the generational thing was crucial for the '68 left." Yes I considered it but I decided that it doesn't make sense since there is no such ideology as "rapism", and children of rapists are hardly likely to be imbued with an ideology or second-generation guilt over their fathers' crimes. to the extent that they would wish to organize politically over it. As I said, it was a partial and flawed analogy, because of this detail.

- noga1

April 7, 2012 at 1:48pm

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Look. Membership in Hitler Youth may have been, as Magboy47 asserts, a matter of peer group pressure etc as much as a matter of philosophy. However, due to my in-laws being of this generation, Germans, former members of Hitler Youth, there's more to it than that. I know many of these people very well. They are antisemitic to a person, their friends, all of them. They are very polite, kind, good people but the mask slips occasionally and you will hear it your Jewish face. It's amazing my sweetheart escaped this, but then he's the family rebel. Believe me his folks weren't overjoyed that he likes to live in the city with der Schwartzes and der Juden. And the Shoah? One aunt describes this as "no big deal; just a few Jews after all!" So this was culturally a pretty big part of Germany but also - Europe in general wasn't it and you can see it today just reading the British newspaper or watching BBC and it isn't just on the Left either. On that score we need to stop blaming "the Left" for what is actually a problem of Christendom and that's bigotry against Jews. Fact: both the European Left and the European Right often exhibit at least some antisemitism because they evolved from this culture, in which Jews were religiously "bad" and also a minority, "the Other," "oriental," dark, and foreign. This is not going to die overnight, it didn't die with the Nazis and it isn't restricted to any one country or political philosophy. Indeed some of the Brits flat out scare me and there are far right wing parties in Europe that are virtually Nazis and the far Left, well that's been discussed above. It won't go away until people look at the root cause and that's not political, it's religious and cultural and it spans all the entire spectrum of political parties and ideologies for that reason. Coming from a German though, it really smells. Yuck.

- Sophia

April 7, 2012 at 2:34pm

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Member of a youth group? That is too much parsing for me. He was a member of the Waffen SS, which was not the Boy Scouts. As to his being conscripted, I can think of at least one other German youth who was conscripted around the same time who deserted. His name is Pope Benedict. He can be a scold too, but at least when faced with a dangerous choice, he chose to escape from being forced to do evil.

- SFergessen

April 7, 2012 at 2:38pm

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A 2007 piece by a German academic on the attraction of secrecy for Grass: http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=725 I'd add that Grass's novels are full of clues, like the letter hidden in plain sight on desk, to his experiences as a young boy and a teenager. The Nazi era was, for that particular generation, most of what they had known, and Grass devoted himself as a writer -- especially in the early novels -- to probing that history and remaking it into something both strange and embarrassingly familiar (in some ways not unlike Fellini's memories of Italy under Mussolini in movies like Amarcord).

- ironyroad

April 7, 2012 at 3:20pm

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"On that score we need to stop blaming "the Left" for what is actually a problem of Christendom and that's bigotry against Jews. Fact: both the European Left and the European Right often exhibit at least some antisemitism because they evolved from this culture, in which Jews were religiously "bad" and also a minority, "the Other," "oriental," dark, and foreign." I don't see the equivalence these days, Sophia. The German right is antisemitic but it doesn't actively target Israel as does the left. Moreover, the Catholic Church as well as the major Protestant denominations have worked pretty hard to try and rid themselves of antisemitism. I know of no Party on the left which has owned up to its antisemitic past and worked to rid itself of that noxious ideology. At best they make a few statement accusing Christianity and the right and continue their own anti-Zionist campaigns.

- arnon1

April 7, 2012 at 4:57pm

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SFergessen "Member of a youth group? That is too much parsing for me. He was a member of the Waffen SS, which was not the Boy Scouts." Indeed, I would add that Grass must have undergone years of indoctrination to be eligible to join this elite Jew murdering mafia. Nothing Grass says makes sense to me. I remember reading the TIn Drum and thought that he invented a baroque style to hide rather than reveal the German past.

- arnon1

April 7, 2012 at 5:00pm

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Whatever about parsing, even by 1935 about sixty per cent of all eligible German youth were in the HJ or the BDM, primarily by either banning or integrating already existing young people's organizations -- and parents who tried to prevent their children joining could be charged with a criminal offense. By 1939 (when Grass was 12) it was about 80%. To that extent, Grass is a statistical norm and his level of ideological commitment at age 17 probably matched that of millions of other Germans of his generation. The Waffen SS in early 1945 was not the elite organization it had been and it now basically picked off the best of the Labor Organization recruits -- indeed, if anything, the Hitler Youth batallions sent to the western front fought with a ferocity that nobody had ever seen. Although this hasn't received a lot of historical research, there were incidents where American troops reported having to kill 10-to-12 year-olds because they kept attacking even in the most insane situations and refused to surrender. I don't say this to justify Grass personally at any point, but the thing that marks him out is his literary work, not the circumstances of his war service which can be replicated in the biographies of a couple of million male German teenagers at least.

- ironyroad

April 7, 2012 at 6:19pm

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"I don't say this to justify Grass personally at any point, but the thing that marks him out is his literary work, not the circumstances of his war service which can be replicated in the biographies of a couple of million male German teenagers at least." Still, there is a certain mystique about the author/poet that we expect them to be unusual, unique, outside the fray, dissidents. in this Grass disappoints. Of course the irony is that Grass is probably considering himself all of these, having published this poem which "speaks truth to power". Apparently, he braved his terrible fear of being labeled an antisemite by some Jews in order to show the world the way to breaking the silence about the terrible deeds and intentions of the Jewish state.

- noga1

April 7, 2012 at 6:44pm

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Netanyahu thinks Grass and his criticism are "ignorant and objectionable." I think Netanyahu and his policies are ignorant and objectionable. In the Israeli narrative, we need not consider whether Netanyahu and his policies are ignorant and objectionable if we are able to establish that Grass is ignorant and objectionable. Some sort of moral negation. If Grass can successfully be labelled an anti-Semite, then Netanyahu is in the clear. But then, if Netanyahu and his policies are indeed ignorant and objectionable, does that mean we no longer have to consider Grass, that he is in the clear? The big difference that I see is that Grass is a writer and does not hold power over anyone. Netanyahu is a head of state and does. Except as a means of allowing Grass's criticism to be ignored, it is really of no importance whether he is or is not an anti-Semite and just why he joined the Waffen SS as a teenager. That doesn't make his criticism go away, nor is it a persuasive argument against the substance of the criticism. I too think that Israel is a threat to world peace, although not for the same reasons as Grass. I don't think that Israel is the equivalent of Iran, but not being the equivalent of Iran is not sufficient. Israel too is an outlaw state within the western community, ignoring its obligations under international law, and thereby undermines the ability of that community to stand up for principles of international law that, among other things, allow us to bind Iran to a particular course of conduct. There is an old equitable/legal principal of "clean hands." I think it applies.

- roidubouloi

April 7, 2012 at 6:45pm

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". . . in this Grass disappoints." Noga, agreed -- certainly the . . . er . . . poem in question is dismal, nothing more than the equivalent of an anti-Israel comment here on some Marty Peretz thread chopped up into lines of varying lengths. And the "what must be said" finger-wagging is banal to the point of self-parody. I don't think Grass has disappointed all through his career, however, as several of his novels will attest. They approach the past obliquely, but that's not the same as dishonesty. And Peeling the Onion is a compelling memoir by itself.

- ironyroad

April 7, 2012 at 7:00pm

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I recently acquired Grass's "Peeling the Onion" as I was very impressed by one of its chapters in which he speaks of a two year sojourn in Paris, with his best friend, none other than Paul Celan (who was "beyond help" he wrote), and describes his evolution from painter to poet. One thing that bothered me was his account of a visit he made to a Wannsea villa. He had been invited to attend a poets' conference or something. It was a place which had some notorious record in Nazi times, he said but he never explained what. I thought it was meant to be taken ironically; surely. Now, I have to wonder whether he was even aware of the significance of that place. It's as if, with the publication of this vile poem, a festering boil has been lanced and its slimy poisonous secretions are no longer to be ignored. As one critic aptly characterized Grass's obscene poem: ""Grass is blaming the Jews of Israel for taking steps to stay alive and also delighting those who still want to kill them — and that’s what must be said." And to think that just a very few months ago I dismissed Grass's tainted early affiliation with the Nazis as the youthful mistake of as yet not fully developed ethical consciousness! Now I will never be able able to read anything of his without it being filtered through the sentiments expressed in this vile poem. BTW, unlike TS Eliot's antisemitic excerpts, that could be attributed to a persona, this poem is a direct line to Grass's mind. It is antisemitic and there is no point trying to reduce its message to being merely "anti-Israel". The slander, the stalking, the singling out, the demonization of Jewish intentions, the fantasy it relies on, all these are pure antisemitic material.

- noga1

April 7, 2012 at 7:19pm

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''He wrote this poem knowing from the way he wrote it that there would be condemnation,'' said Frank Schirrmacher, co-publisher of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. ''He needs the condemnation to move on to the next step, which is to say that it is impossible in Germany to criticise Israel.'' Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/gunter-grass-tries-to-hose-down-row-over-israel-20120407-1wi8c.html#ixzz1rPXJT5Ot

- noga1

April 7, 2012 at 10:10pm

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In thinking about this whole thing, I'm becoming more and more surprised that the Süddeutsche Zeitung, a generally intelligent newspaper, would let this piece of Grass's through as it stands. This may say something more about the current editorial maturity of the newspaper than anything else -- they were so pleased to get a poem from Grass, they never thought about its content. I think it's unlikely that T.S. Eliot's "persona" was more than a clever feint that protected him from accusation -- something that Pound was incapable of doing, which may in a weird way say something about him that echoes a comment I posted earlier -- the refreshing honesty of the Eastern European antisemitism (unlike the Germans, they aren't trying to hide it behind a philosophy of global social work). But maybe that's too glib a point. Was Grass's "tainted early affiliation with the Nazis" really different in character from any other German of a similar age's affiliation? Despite postwar Bundesdeutsche fairy tales, there was very little "resistance," some of that resistance was antisemitic itself (especially the officer class), and the rare youth group like the Weisse Rosa had a particular perspective born of Bavarian circumstances. Grass wasn't any different at the age of 16/17 than his peers, and I don't believe twelve years in a kind of cocoon of propaganda is likely to make even a smart teenager a good judge of things. Add to that the all-encompassing fear of the Red Army approaching and the normal desires of youth to prove themselves and show themselves worthy, and I think you have a story like Grass's. I teach 18/19/20 year-olds for my job, and I'd say that many find it hard to think outside what they have been taught earlier in life.

- ironyroad

April 7, 2012 at 10:35pm

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"Was Grass's "tainted early affiliation with the Nazis" really different in character from any other German of a similar age's affiliation? Despite postwar Bundesdeutsche fairy tales, there was very little "resistance," some of that resistance was antisemitic itself (especially the officer class), and the rare youth group like the Weisse Rosa had a particular perspective born of Bavarian circumstances. Grass wasn't any different at the age of 16/17 than his peers, and I don't believe twelve years in a kind of cocoon of propaganda is likely to make even a smart teenager a good judge of things. Add to that the all-encompassing fear of the Red Army approaching and the normal desires of youth to prove themselves and show themselves worthy, and I think you have a story like Grass's." That was my point all along, Irony.

- arnon1

April 7, 2012 at 11:46pm

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There he goes again the Iranian apologizer the Galiciener dishonest self hatred Jew demonizing Israel demonizing Netanyauh . Now defending a hateful nazi. The king of the stinky baloney is a mediocre roi..dent hemo..roid, angry unhappy failure. But that is his punishment that he has to live with himself watching Israel succeed over and over again. What a pitiful vermin is this schmuck. This time he just spits hatred.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 3:40am

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Are you suggesting, ironyroad, that Ezra Pound's exhibitionistic antisemitism made him a sort of a visible lion? A visible lion, I was told when on safari at Kruger Park, is a safe lion. It's the invisible one that you should fear most. Anthony Julius, in his book about TS Eliot and antisemitism as literary form calls Pound's kind of explicit antisemitism irresponsible. i couldn't quite understand what he meant. Is there a type of "responsible" antisemitism? Or did he mean that Pound's freely expressed and intense loathing of Jews was dangerous because it came close to actual incitement, while Eliot's was of a more contemplative metaphorical type? There is something unsettling about Grass's naming his autobiography "Peeling the Onion" as if warning the reader that once you peel the onion layer by layer, you find there is no core, just an emptiness, a lack. Maybe He should try to fill up that yawning space by eating every kind of fish he can get, all the time. Needless to say, for me Gunter Grass' writing has lost any appeal or merit it might have had just a couple of months ago. It is really that simple.

- noga1

April 8, 2012 at 5:43am

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Well, for a while we had the reasonably sane Jaime posting here and there. Now the sick, demented, drooling, sputtering, enraged Jaime has returned. The point, Oh Insane One, is that Grass's being a Nazi or not being a Nazi or being an anti-Semite or not an anti-Semite is of no importance. The claim that he is such is raised only to evade his point. The evasion, in turn, suggests that those who disagree his criticism are unable to answer it in any substantive way and must therefore divert attention to questions about Grass's personal history or motivation. Who cares about Grass? Only those who have no better defense of Israel, no persuasive means of answering him. Only because Netanyahu is a an utter clod does he stoop to engage by attacking Grass thereby adding to Grass's credibility. The attacks on him serve only to inspire others to his cause without any examination of the issues. I don't defend Grass or attack Grass because Grass himself is quite beside the point. You are one sick puppy, Jaime. Get help.

- roidubouloi

April 8, 2012 at 9:57am

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Roldubouloi, Gunter Grass raises no substantive points at all in his poem, and offers no evidence. His is simply a totally baseless accusation that Israel is intending an unprovoked and massively genocidal nuclear war against Iran. The twisted psychology behind the making of such a pyschotic accusation (a baseless accusation which gives great joy to those who wish to destroy Israel, and it's coming from an ex-Waffen SS soldier) therefore becomes the only relevant question.

- ProfEthan

April 8, 2012 at 10:22am

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There he goes again the mediocre looser Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew Iranian apologizer spits his anti Israel venom. Demonizes the prime minister of Israel Netanyauh one of the greatest Jews ever. And goes with his diatribe defending a nazi. In the past he has defended the Iranian dictators Ahmadenijad and ayatollah Khameini. And he has posted that he hates anything the USA stands for. This decrepit mentally handicapped vermin belongs in a mental asylum, or he can go and live in any Islamic dictatorship. He loves the nazis, he loves Iran. He is full of hatred. He can not live with himself seeing Israel progress better and better. Oh boy who needs nazis and enemies when you have self hatred Jews vomiting all over the place. The king of putrefied baloney, roi..dent, hemo...roid is now defender tof nazis, no surprises here.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 10:46am

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The Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew anti Israel Iranian apologizer defender of nazis reminds me of the Jewish kapos, guards, used by the nazis in the concentration camps. Obviously they were those that survived. The king of putrefied baloney and stinky salami, roi...dent, hemo...roid, spits his anti Jewish, anti Israel, pro nazi , anti USA hatred all the time. He has been a mediocre looser for a long time, mentally challenged and very inept.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 10:58am

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A good development happened. Mike Wallace died. The most self hatred Jew anti Israel sicko that made CBS 60 minutes a bastion of anti Israel bashing with the still alive Bob Simon another self hatred Jew that unfortunately survived capture by Iraqi Sadam troops , they called him dirty Jew and let him loose. The Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew defender of Iran defender of nazis, must be mourning one of his pals. Surely roi..dent, hemo..roid celebrated when Jewish children were murdered by a fanatic Islamist in Toulouse. He forgot to ask international organizations he always cites to condemn such crimes, of course he defends Syrian Iranian massacres of innocent civilian Moslems. His hatred for Israel his hatred for Jews condones crimes against humanity by Syrian Iranian tugs. Now he defends nazis and hates to be living in a free society like the USA. This king of the stinky baloney is a mad dog out of control. How can he lived with his conscience that is totally absent. He is pure evil.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 1:19pm

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Respectfully, Noga, do you seriously think Leftist "anti-Israel" policies are worse than racist judenhass? I don't. Also, Roid, much as I hate to admit it, has a point. There have been several instances in the past few years where Israeli leaders have been much too aggressive in my opinion (and also that of Tzipi Livni's by the way, not to mention the Israeli center and left); for example in Lebanon and probably also the entire saga of Gaza; and yes I'm as much against rockets, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc as the next Zionist but let's be sufficiently honest to recognize an ott response to aggression for what it is. At least that is my opinion so now I guess I will prepare for a barrage of self-hating Jew comments. Anyway, though, I don't see an equivalence between Israel's government and Iran's on any level so in that regard I think Roid is just wrong. A core element, and this is significant, has to do with the treatment of Israeli citizens by its government. There's no comparison with Iran, with Iranian religious doctrine, with the fake democracy: pre-selection of candidates by the mullahs, so forth, let alone ethnic, gender and religious suppression. Also since when has the Israeli government threatened to exterminate another people? I suppose you could make an argument that Likud and other denialism about Palestinian peoplehood effectively amounts to something similar but it isn't the same. At worst, they are arguing that Jordan = Palestine, which could actually be supported on some logical grounds and which in any case doesn't involve murdering millions of people, which I think is the point of the Iranian rhetoric despite attempts to apologize for it on the grounds that hyperbole is an Eastern art form. So, yeah, I think when the Israelis go off half-cocked militarily and crush bugs with bombers maybe this should be criticized and loudly. But comparing Israel to Iran? That's a whole continent too far Roid! Really it is. It's the same thing that Gunter Grass is doing and it's just wrong. Plus it plays into that awful paradigm, "Oh. The Jews. Why haven't they learned from being exterminated" meme, which is disgusting and well as completely illogical. If anything, people who've been exterminated, abused like Jews have, if they were kids you'd expect them to be way more paranoid and abusive than the Israelis are.

- Sophia

April 8, 2012 at 2:44pm

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Sophia, I said that Israel and Iran are not equivalent and that Grass is therefore wrong. But I also said that not being the Iran is not sufficient, and it isn't. Israel's conduct cannot be defended simply by arguing that it is not nearly as bad as Iran. So what? Can Iran defend itself by saying it is not nearly as bad as North Korea? Quoting myself above: "I too think that Israel is a threat to world peace, although not for the same reasons as Grass. I don't think that Israel is the equivalent of Iran, but not being the equivalent of Iran is not sufficient. Israel too is an outlaw state within the western community, ignoring its obligations under international law, and thereby undermines the ability of that community to stand up for principles of international law that, among other things, allow us to bind Iran to a particular course of conduct. There is an old equitable/legal principal of "clean hands." I think it applies." __________________________________ ProfEthan, I disagree. The attacks on Grass, and the unwillingness and/or inability to offer a measured, reasoned reply, serve only to give Grass's lie about Israel greater credibility because they make it appear that there is no substantive response to be made. It is a display of moral weakness. But Israel also has difficulty making the case because it is an outlaw. It is not an easy matter to complain of the unlawful behavior of another state while yourself in flagrant violation of international law and a whole raft of UNSC resolutions. _____________________ Jaime, I think you are a Nazi. Indeed, I am quite sure of it. I am also quite sure that you are completely insane, but the two are not mutually exclusive.

- roidubouloi

April 8, 2012 at 3:26pm

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"Respectfully, Noga, do you seriously think Leftist "anti-Israel" policies are worse than racist judenhass? " There is no difference. Proof of the pudding is in the taste. The extremes converge. Consider George Galloway, a Moselyite thug speaking from the "left". Consider the former Nazi Gunter Grass, now feted by the Mearsheimer and Walt's "righteous Jews", on their emetic websites (Mondoweiss, for example). Consider Prof. AbuKhalil, a radical anarchist, calling openly for the destruction of Israel and dreaming openly about coraling Jews into "refugee camps". What is the difference between Leftist antisemitism and Rightist antisemitism? They both focus on Jews, they single out Jews for special scrutiny, they rely on lies and slanderous accusation to prop up their cause, they stalk Jews. And both have a final objective: make Jews disappear, one way or another.

- noga1

April 8, 2012 at 3:26pm

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"not being the equivalent of Iran is not sufficient"

- roidubouloi

April 8, 2012 at 3:27pm

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Do not be naive the Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew demonizes Israel demonizes the prime minister of Israel, supports wholeheartedtedly the Islamic theocrats of Iran and supports nazis with all he can. the king of rotten baloney, roi..dent, hemo..roid, hates the USA and repeatedly attacks America where he has a good free life. Constantly abuses the free forum he is blessed with in TNR. He has abusers this site for a long time. He has to be treated like he is a mediocre hater of all that is Jewish and free America. A born looser that can no t stand his mediocrity. These Jew haters have to be confronted with their one sided demonizing of Israel. They are willing agents of terrorist Islam, defend Iran and the nazis mortal enemies of the Jews. The king of the rotten baloney is a vermin. And naiveté and good manners are not to be given to this evil individual. He is in the wrong site, he should join the neo nazi crowd where his kind of postings are a daily occurrence. Even Finkelstein has now repented and wants self hatred Jews to stop demonizing Israel. But the Galicianer self hatred Jew Iran apologizer demonizer of Israel is too busy defending aggressive German nazis. I wonder when is he going to defend the nazi German pope head of the largest child abusing organization, he has been attacking Israel, don't you know. Come on roi...dent, hemo..roid, defend this other German nazi.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 4:06pm

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http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israelis-can-be-angry-with-gunter-grass-but-they-must-listen-to-him-1.423194 "Grass' "What Must Be Said" does contain things that must be said. It can and should be said that Israel's policy is endangering world peace. His position against Israeli nuclear power is also legitimate. He can also oppose supplying submarines to Israel without his past immediately being pulled out as a counterclaim. But Grass exaggerated, unnecessarily and in a way that damaged his own position."

- roidubouloi

April 8, 2012 at 4:11pm

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Jaime, no one here spews hate like you do. You are the champ. Just what we should expect from a Nazi like you, insane hatred and lies.

- roidubouloi

April 8, 2012 at 4:14pm

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Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew supporter of theocratic Iran and German nazis, if I had been a nazi you would have never been here in the American and Israeli free world. But you have to live and suffer in the mediocrity of your sorry existence. Go ahead is your turn to defend your new haver the nazi German pope head of the largest child molesters organization, come on he has been attacking Israel pope Benedictus seven eight whatever., he is blond with blue eyes pure Arian pure Aryan, just visited Mexico, no news if he contacted Montezumas revenge or like Jimmy Carter had a case of the hemorrhoids , got it hemor....roids. you know you can now google Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew? I have made you famous roi...dent. I am glad I uncovered a virulent enemy of Israel defender of Iran and the nazis. I have raised a mediocre to temporary fame.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 4:23pm

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You are a Nazi, Jaime. Just look at yourself, totally out of control, spewing nothing but hatred and vicious lies, delusions of grandeur, pretending you are Hitler. Are you a child molester too? That seems to be on your mind a lot although it has nothing to do with anything. What crimes have you committed already? Here you are threatening me with death, telling me how you would have exterminated me. How much blood are you longing to spill in your insanity?

- roidubouloi

April 8, 2012 at 4:28pm

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Noga: "Are you suggesting, ironyroad, that Ezra Pound's exhibitionistic antisemitism made him a sort of a visible lion?" Yes, that's a good way of putting it. I don't know if I ever mentioned it before (perhaps) but there was an incident back in the early-mid 1990s when I was still living in Germany. The Berlin Philharmonic was on tour, including dates in Israel. In Tel Aviv one night, a musician from the orchestra -- I don't know what instrument he played -- got drunk in the hotel bar and suddenly started verbally abusing the staff and other guests with a stream of antisemitic hatred. It got heavy enough for hotel security and the police to get involved and the news leaked out (next day the musician was sent home in disgrace and went into seclusion in his apartment in Berlin with the press camped outside). In any case, what really struck me about this incident was the fact that, as far as I could judge from what I knew, this guy wasn't any kind of rightwinger or racist in the normal course of events. Quite the opposite: he was a classic Berlin left-of-center liberal who, apparently, had been in Israel more than once with nothing like that happening. If you want your invisible lion, then he is that for me. Years of saying and thinking the right thing, aware of the crimes of German history, imagining oneself to be utterly opposed to the Nazi or fascist world-view -- all of that is peeled off like a rubber mask after a few drinks in Tel Aviv. Whatever was being suppressed comes pouring out, a toxic mixture of hatred, anger, and guilt.

- ironyroad

April 8, 2012 at 4:29pm

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Sophia. You have not done your homework as you should. And you can not be excused as being naive. Thousands of rockets and missiles were showered into Israel by Hezbollah from Lebanon and Hamas from Gaza, all provided by theocratic Iran. The wars in 2006 Lebanon, and 2008 Gaza, were defensive wars by Israel. After truce agreements and UN "agreements" of not rearming, we are now in 2012. Iran has posted 55,000 missiles in Hezbollah southern Lebanon, and 10,000 rockets/missiles in Hamas Gaza. Assisted Syria in their massacres of unarmed Sunni Moslems, natural enemies of Shia Iranian Moslems. Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons. Sophia do you read my posters. No. Well google this information and you will find it all over the Internet. Iran is actively involved in terroristic attacks against Americans in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan. Terroristic attacks killing Jews in buenos Aires Argentina. And on and on. please Sophia do me a favor study the information before you blog. One thing is being good hearted as you are, to be admired. But be fair and inform yourself. Otherwise you are easy pray for dishonest bigots like roi..dent. Hemor...roid. Iran theocrats are evil enemies of Israel and the Jews. And German nazis are evil enemies of Israel and the Jews. And roi..dent hemor..roid is a Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew, anti Israel, pro Iranian islamists, pro German nazis. And as all enemies has to be UN masked , has to be confronted. And Israel has to defend itself. Were you aware that in early march Islamic jihad from Gaza fired over 300 rockets towards civilian population in the Negev in Israel? that a million Israelis had to be in bunkers? That the IDF had to retaliate. That Egypt arranged for a truce to which Iran objected strenuously since Islamic jihad, just like Hamas , are financially supported by Iran? Please inform yourself , otherwise you are easy pray for evil roi...dent, hemor...roid. And worst easy pray for the enemies of Israel, theocratic Iran and virulent anti Jewish Islamists.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 5:01pm

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The Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew demonizer of Israel defender of Iran ,defender of German nazis one a poet the other a pope head of the child molesters, is in a loosing rant. It is bringing him even below his mediocrity. The king of rotten baloney , roi..dent, hemor...roid, has been unmasked and is w/o clothes, is the true naked king or bare ass. His song and dance is direct all attacks against Israel, somewhere along his mediocre life has directed his frustrations against his own flesh and blood, it was easy to search for solace and consolation to be a self hatred Jew. No reprimands, no castigation, anyhow there were others like him. Somewhere along the road he was confronted. Maybe like Finkelstein he will see the light, and stop demonizing Israel. Is going to be hard he is too mediocre for redemption.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 5:17pm

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I'm disappointed, Jaime. I thought that if I provoked you a little you might lift your game and perhaps say something interesting or witty. But, in addition to being demented, you are a moron, not capable of anything more than ridiculous, childish ravings. One thing is for sure. Compared to you, mere anti-Semites look like the soul of moderation.

- roidubouloi

April 8, 2012 at 5:27pm

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The unconscious and the conscious. In December of 1961 I was on my way from Israel to USA in the Zim lines ship Yerushalayim. On the deck , and in the middle of a rough seas, I met a young Spanish lady had her four year old son and was on her way to be reunited with her husband an American marine. We spoke in Spanish she did not suspect I was Jewish. This young lady was thoroughly sea sick. And told me she was being punished for traveling in a Jewish vessel. I will never forget the incident. The funny thing is that my whole stay in Israel in 1961, and again in 1991, I felt completely normal, I forgot being Jewish, was a feeling of peace and calm. Which reminds me of the story of one being asked why he came to Israel after being there for awhile. Why did you come to Israel? He answered to forget. To forget what?, he was asked. I already forgotten he finally answered.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 5:35pm

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Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew demonizer of Israel defender of Iran and German nazis, you have lost control, which is a plus. You reaffirmed your intense mediocrity. Go and defend your new pal the nazi German pope defender of child molesters. Roi..dent, hemor...roid , king of the rotten boulyney you are, have been, and always be a blatant ineffectual mediocrity. You know it , accepted and remain the mediocre you always have been. Mediocre, mediocre, mediocre. A born looser.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 5:42pm

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Quite the admission, Jaime, that in order to feel normal, peaceful, and calm you have to forget being Jewish. It would seem that self-hatred is in fact your very problem. Stands to reason. When a lunatic such as yourself raves on at length about the pope, child molestation, self-hatred, Nazis, whatever, it can only be your own mental demons that you are chasing. Goodbye, Jaime. There is nothing one can say to or about someone babbling incoherently such as you that could possibly make a difference either to you or to anyone else.

- roidubouloi

April 8, 2012 at 6:06pm

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For the record, roi quoting Gideon Levi absolutely makes sense and is in character. http://www.news1.co.il/archive/0019-D-1068-00.html?tag=14-23-47 According to the Israeli author, Irit Linur, in a private conversation with the radical Leftist journalist from Haaretz, he told her that he wouldn't drive 100 yards to rescue the life of such a species, a "settler" (שיחה פרטית איתו, אמר לי פעם שהוא לא היה נוסע מאה מטר כדי להציל את חייו של מתנחל ). I took that to mean that if he could drive 100 yards to save the lives of the Fogel children in Itamar, he wouldn't do that. And we are supposed to take moral lessons from the likes of such a person.

- noga1

April 8, 2012 at 7:37pm

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ironyroad: The example you recounted I would still characterize as the visible lion. The invisible antisemite is dangerous because he cannot be seen as such until he pounces. A hungry lion, on the prowl for prey, crouches in the grass and cannot be seen until it is too late. Perhaps Gunter Grass fits this role, after all. His antisemitism was invisible until now. The damage this "poem" has caused and will cause will unfold like a released coil.

- noga1

April 8, 2012 at 8:08pm

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In matters of life and death, in matters of irrational hatred, there are no middle grounds. A nazi is a nazi, is the equivalent of dealing with a mad dog. There is no room for rational discourse. The same is with Islamic fanatics like the Iranian theocracy. Either they kill you or you defend yourself and kill him first. This is the war Iranian theocrats have been waging against Israel and the Jews. Same as nazis did in the past and neo nazis do in the present. Israelis know perfectly well, and are living every present day. American Jews have no idea of the daily dangers Israelis experience, and hardly they give a damn. There are exceptions , I am sure, but the demonization of Israel has gone to far by American Jews of whom the self hatred have been too loud too wrong. Finkelstein has reconsidered and now objects tonthe demonization of Israel, while radical Islam and theocratic Iran wage constant war against Israel. So when roiduboulois constantly attacks Israel defending theocratic Iran and corrupt international institutions that only attack Israel, and continuous with his mediocre false arguments about the liberated territories you have to confront him. But when he comes and defends German nazis, he is now as criminal as the German nazis and neo nazis are. His mediocre self hatred Jew has gone too far. His defense of a theocratic Iran has been open and clear. He is a deranged self hatred Jew that in his madness wants the destruction of Israel and the Jews and nothing else. He is a failed mediocrity. He is full of hatred and madness. He is pure evil. He hates America and Israel, he is a sicko mediocre sicko.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 9:56pm

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"...a failed mediocrity." Someone who aspired to be a mediocrity but failed. That's quite witty but too ambiguous as an insult.

- noga1

April 8, 2012 at 10:20pm

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In 1962 I was in Brooklyn staying with my mother's cousin Kalman. He had survived Auschwitz and had observed the horrors that took place when the German nazi troops entered the village of my mother Mishinits in Poland close to Lithuania. My maternal grandfather was the baker in town , he did not escape like my parents to the American continent where I was born. The German nazi troops put my maternal grandfather in a barrel and burnt him alive down the hill. My maternal grand mother was deceased before the war started. There was an uncle and twin sister with husband and two children that disappeared in the Holocaust. Many thoughts have come to my mind. The Jews chanting the Shma while marching into the crematories. The Holocaust survivors I met, that behaved like zombies returning from the dead like they were now in another world. If only the Jews had been armed. The story would be different. Well, the Jews are now armed and the present and future is and will be different. German nazis and neo nazis, and islamo fascists are not rational if killing they want killing they will have. There should not be ever a nuclear Iran. Their defenders are mediocre criminals.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 10:22pm

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noga1 ihad the article translated using the google translator. It took some doing but I succeeded. But for roiduboulois to use Guideon Levy as a hero , it figures. He is the ultimate self hatred Jew anti Israel. I stopped reading his venom a long time ago. I always wondered why he has not been arrested on sedition charges. Maybe because his diatribes are predictable , maybe because he is a failed mediocrity. And come to think he was involved with Shimon Peres,, and the other character I don't remember now, member of Knesset and other failure mediocrity, in working the Oslo accords.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 10:40pm

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Yossi Belin is the other failed mediocrity.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 10:44pm

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Roi, apologies for misunderstanding you. I think maybe the term "outlaw" got me upset; I think that's strong. It takes more than one side to make peace. I understand your pov on the settlements but the security issues, as JC points out, are serious and they're real. Territorial concessions must be accompanied by a sincere desire for peace by the other parties involved and I'm not sure this has been forthcoming, even from Egypt. From the leadership, yes - but from the people? That's another story and among the Palestinians, and parties in Lebanon, probably sincerity isn't 100%. Noga, I think there's a difference between hating a people and criticizing the government of a nation state for its actions. Now, when it comes to those who demonize Israel or even suggest it shouldn't exist, I think that's the same thing as antisemitism. However, stating that in one's opinion, certain Israeli government policies are wrong is not antisemitism and it isn't anti-Zionist. I admit that some on the Left do seem reflexively anti-Israel and that probably amounts to the same thing as being anti-Jewish; I have given this a lot of thought and don't see how one could advocate the destruction of Israel without advocating the destruction of Jews. I include demographic destruction, one-state solution and Arab ROR in this category, unless the people of Israel themselves vote and agree to such a process, it would be extremely destructive to us as a people. But criticizing the government of a state isn't the same thing as hating its people. It's more akin to saying, in some respects the Iranian government is bad, which is true, whereas we are not saying the Iranian people are bad. Maybe this seems like hairsplitting but it really is an important point don't you? Anyway, as to being armed, Jaime, so was the Polish Underground. The Polish Army for that matter, and the French, and the Soviets; the British. The fact is once in awhile a horror like Nazi Germany comes along. 20 million Soviets were killed at Nazi hands and they were armed to the teeth. People in general need to figure out a way to end war, to end the armed destruction of one another and in my opinion our environment including our animals, plants, fish; and their habitats. So in this respect fear of nuclear weapons is totally understandable. Along those lines I don't understand why Gunter Grass doesn't understand that the Israelis are afraid of Iran acquiring nuclear weapons, and I also don't understand why he assumes they would launch a preemptive strike using nuclear weapons. I think his poem and the sentiments behind it are pretty disgusting. That said I stand by my assertion, I agree with you that the rockets from Gaza and Lebanon are unacceptable in the extreme; but I also think there are aspects of the way the people of Gaza have been treated - the economic constraints for example - that are very upsetting and have nothing to do with arms interdiction and/or suppression of rocket attacks; ditto I don't respect the settler movement; and I think many actions in Lebanon are hard to defend on moral grounds, this goes back to the Lebanese Civil War. So I say this having done my homework, with respect; I still think non-violence is preferable to violence; don't you agree? We should try absolutely everything else; starting a war is starting a war, period. On the other hand the Iranian government does its best to sound like Nazis so what do I know. I'd like to think they are just ranting but I'm not sure. I guess, I would like to see any military action be spearheaded by an international body. And meanwhile I pray no military action is required.

- Sophia

April 8, 2012 at 10:58pm

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And you have to give credit where credit is due the great hero that advised the Jews to arm themselves and defend themselves, was Zeev (Vladimir) Zabotinsky. The idol of Heruth, now Likud. although David Ben Gurion followed admirably. Thus either the right or the left, but all the contrary. All together, simply Jews finally defending themselves. With great heroes, Moshe Dayan, Itzhak Rabin, Ariel Sharon, Ezer Weizmann, Netanyahu's brother, and many others. Hey include Menachem Begin, Levy Eshkol, Itzhak Shamir and his wife. And many others.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 11:01pm

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Sophia if Russians had not been armed maybe half of their people would have perished, like half of the Jewish people did. But the pacifist like Chamberlain allowed nazi Germany to arm was the error. Like we are seeing being done today with the nuclearization of theocratic Iran. But still I see you are unmoved or ignoring the thousands of Iranian missiles in Lebanon an Gaza and constant attacks against Israel. and the fact that Iran is in war with Israel. But that is the way it goes. American Jews live in America. Israeli Jews live in Israel. Even Israeli Arabs, Moslem and Christians, live in Israel. Everything else is commentary.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 11:16pm

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Sophia the truth of the matter is that the Palestinians have been kept backwards by their leaders. Do you think that Gaza is in such dire needs that they have 10,000 rockets/missiles instead of food? Do you think that Hezbollah Lebanon is such peace loving people that they have 55,000 missiles planted in all their villages to wage war again? American Jews live in America. Israelis live in Israel. Early March 2012, Islamic Jihad from Gaza fired 300 rockets at Israeli civilians in the Sinai. One million Israelis liven in bunkers for the week. Prior to 2008 Gaza war, Hamas kept firing 4000 rockets for months. When Israel decided to stop this aggression was criticized by the ultra left. Hamas considered a great triumph. Same by Hizbollah of the 2006 Lebanon war. But I assure you although they are rearmed again they are mighty careful not to provoke Israel again. And Iran knows pretty well that they are tuning out of time, on their nuclearization follies. And the ayatollahs are shaking under their skirts.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 8, 2012 at 11:36pm

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I was expecting noga to tell us that Gideon Levy and Haaretz are anti-Semitic. That would be in character. Close, but no cigar. Then there is the report the other day, also in Haaretz, of Mofaz publicly branding Netanyahu as a liar. Mofaz is no doubt an anti-Semite. Now Netanyahu's government, in another intensely stupid move, has barred Grass from entering Israel. So much for Israeli complaints about public boycott of Israelis and Israeli public figures. "Grass, a Nobel laureate for literature, did no more than write a poem. The State of Israel, through its interior minister, reacted with hysteria. It seems that at issue is less an undesirable person than an undesirable policy." From an editorial in Haaretz. http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/an-undesirable-policy-1.423312 Netanyahu seems determined to hold Israel up to ridicule, and the extreme reaction speaks volumes about Israel's doubts about its own policies. ____________________ Sophia, Israel is an outlaw because its settlements in occupied territory are in flagrant disregard for its obligations under the Fourth Geneva Convention and under the UN Charter. Israel's settlements in occupied territory are illegal regardless of whether the Palestinians do or do not make peace, Period. Israel is entitled to do in the occupied territories what is plausibly necessary for its own security and otherwise it is obliged to allow the Palestinians to live as free of Israeli control as Israel's security will allow. Israel continues in provocative defiance of its obligations and renders settlement of the conflict intractable meanwhile demanding that the world act to protect it against Iran or risk the consequences of Israeli unilateral action (which would also be in violation of the UN Charter). As this stalemate continues, the potential consequences for the rest of the world grow worse. As such, Israel and its illegal actions are a threat to world peace. This situation will not go on indefinitely. As the risks grow, the time will come when the UNSC acts to impose a settlement, one that will probably not be to Israel's liking. Yet the clod Netanyahu does whatever he can to render settlement impossible. Netanyahu is surely a threat to world peace.

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 12:07am

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I should have made clear that the way in which Israel makes the conflict intractable is by insisting that its illegal settlements be legitimized as a condition to making peace.

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 12:32am

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The odious argument from and with roid are totally unnecessary. The thread was doing pretty well till he showed up. Let him be. Let him post to his hearts content his approval of Gunter Grass and his hatred of Israel. He has replaced reductio ad Netanayhu for Reductio ad Hitlerum. Why do you people care what he says?

- arnon1

April 9, 2012 at 12:36am

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Israelis have the right attitude. Ignore assholes like Grass and live your own life. "Israel ranked 14th happiest countryUN-commissioned report finds social factors as significant as economic ones" http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-is-ranked-as-the-14th-happiest-country-in-the-world/ Academics and leftist are a perennial unhappy species. The judge all by their own gloomy disposition.

- arnon1

April 9, 2012 at 12:39am

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So Gideon Levi wouldn't save a settler. If you were a settle would you wish to be saved by such and asshole? I suppose that by settler he also includes babes in arms and old ladies. Gideon Levy is the face of modern moral universalism. No wonder these moral barbarians are in the minority everywhere.

- arnon1

April 9, 2012 at 12:43am

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"I should have made clear that the way in which Israel makes the conflict intractable is by insisting that its illegal settlements be legitimized as a condition to making peace." No you was clear or as clear as yous can be. But what does this have to do with Gunter claiming that Jews want to nuke Iran? The Nazis claimed that Jews wanted to take over the world which is why they were at war with Judentum. Gunter must have been remembering his golden yout.

- arnon1

April 9, 2012 at 12:46am

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Can't you do any better, arnon, than completely misrepresenting what I said? You are still the same vile liar as ever, just cleaned up a bit lately. Didn't last. Too bad. You thuggish ultra-nationalist types imagine yourselves as Israel's great defenders when all you succeed in doing is deepening its isolation and further tarnishing its reputation before the rest of the world. Pity Israel that it has friends like you. Sure you thought this thread was just fine. As long as the lot have you think you have an anti-Semite to feast on publicly, you imagine all is right with the world, that attention can successfully be diverted from the substance of these problems and from any need actually to offer persuasive defense of Israel's policies. That your public feasting actually gives credibility to Grass's falsehoods doesn't trouble you at all. You would rather indulge yourselves.

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 12:54am

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The point, arnon, is that Grass's claim that Israel is a threat to world peace will, in light of the realities of Israel's policies, have great resonance in the world. As Levy correctly points out, Grass then undermined his own claim with his hyperbole about Israel threatening to destroy Iran. But that will be utterly lost as a result of the attacks on Grass as an anti-Semite and Nazi and the fact that Netanyahu has made attacking Grass a matter of actual government policy. Has he no sense of national dignity? The very extremism of Netanyahu's reaction will ensure widespread acceptance of Grass's accusations in their entirety. The whole sorry episode also points out the extreme stupidity of Netanyahu's behavior. Rather obviously, he has not been making threats against Iran, but threats against the west as a means of forcing action against Iran. Did he think there would be no reaction? He is just another ultra-nationalist moron without the slightest strategic or tactical sense. Couldn't even take control of a boat full of civilians without making an international incident out of it. And the rest of the ultra-nationalist morons applaud him and disport themselves dissecting Grass. That will surely move the world.

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 1:04am

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One wonders how many yards out of their way some of the posters here would go to save Günter Grass.

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 1:07am

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Ironyroad wrote: "Grass wasn't any different at the age of 16/17 than his peers, and I don't believe twelve years in a kind of cocoon of propaganda is likely to make even a smart teenager a good judge of things. Add to that the all-encompassing fear of the Red Army approaching and the normal desires of youth to prove themselves and show themselves worthy, and I think you have a story like Grass's." That sounds right to me. It's also true that Grass is out to lunch when he says that Israel is fixin' to nuke Iran. They just want to bomb certain potential bomb-making facilities in Iran. But their (conventional) bombs, deliverable on existing Israeli aircraft, don't really have the necessary power. They'd like the US to provide the muscle. We (as in US) have some extremely powrful albeit non-nuclear bombs which can dig deep, & blow the bejeebers out of Iranian underground facilites, no matter how deeply buried. The Israelis would like the US to provide that service for them. Their only leverage against US reluctance is the threat to use their own nukes to accomplish the task, & so engage in a sort of game of chicken with the US. But it isn't working, & will not work. The US is not going to go down that road again, in that part of the world, not any time soon.

- Haole45

April 9, 2012 at 1:20am

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Jaime: "But the pacifist like Chamberlain allowed nazi Germany to arm was the error." Not true -- Chamberlain has been pilloried by glib and superficial commentators, but he wasn't stupid and he knew that in 1938 Britain did not yet have the Spitfire fighter ready for deployment, nor the radar technology for air defense, nor the civil defense network, and they are all things that -- narrowly -- achieved victory against the Luftwaffe in 1940/1. There are some people who made the correct call in their cirucmstances who weren't called Churchill.

- ironyroad

April 9, 2012 at 2:41am

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Territorial disputes anybody and no Geneva convention. Belize Falklands/Malvinas Hong Kong Kashmir Taiwan Ireland mess Guantanamo That little island Russia and Japan quarrel about Cyprus

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 2:43am

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My my my. Chamberlain right call. Let German nazis arm. Superb victory. After Holocaust. After millions upon millions dead. Right call. What do they call this? History re-assessment?

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 2:52am

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Three points: (1) Spitfire, (2) radar, and (3) civil defense structure. Any evidence-based arguments to make, Jaime? Or is it all hot air to you anyway -- just say stuff, and the world will shift itself to your way of thinking, like magic?

- ironyroad

April 9, 2012 at 3:08am

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roidubouloi "One wonders how many yards out of their way some of the posters here would go to save Günter Grass." No one is threatening Grass and there is no need to save him. The usual "European pa pacifists" who didn't want us to fight Hitler either will pretend that Jews are out for their pound of flesh and will make a lot of noise. But it won't amount to much.

- arnon1

April 9, 2012 at 3:50am

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Final comment. Chamberlain appeasement of German nazis was wrong. End of story.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 3:57am

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"The point, arnon, is that Grass's claim that Israel is a threat to world peace will, in light of the realities of Israel's policies, have great resonance in the world." They will with people like Levy and you but not with people who know how complicated the situation on the West Bank is and that no one side is responsible for the lack of peace there. Of course those Germans who are tired of not being able to blame Jews for all the problems in the world who think it unfair that just because their parents and grandparents killed millions of Jews and more than a million Jewish children that they should not be allowed to attack the Jewish Sttae. Oh those poor leftist Germans your heart just brakes doesn't it? Let them march and support Grass. Their actions only show how untrustworthy they are. Peace is not what they are after. Israel is. They wish to undermine the Jewish State. This is what its' about and this is all that it is about.

- arnon1

April 9, 2012 at 3:58am

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Now if you want to dwell about air force try Ezer Weismann. Even you know who will like it. He switched from extreme right to extreme left during his career .

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 4:59am

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A few questions: Do Jewish settlements in the West Bank exist in violation of international law? Does the current Israeli government's support for such settlements mean that it is acting in violation of international norms? If so, does such action in violation of international norms justify censure of Israel on this basis if no other on the part of foreign governments, non-governmental organizations and individuals? If so, is it foolish of the current Israeli government to isolate itself in this way? Caveat: "It's complicated" is not an answer.

- AaronW

April 9, 2012 at 5:03am

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Two more questions: If it is accepted that the West Bank settlements are illegal, does the current Israeli government's claim of a right of self-defense over such settlements complicate in the eyes of the world it's legitimate claim of a right of self-defense over Israel proper? Is it anti-Israel if not antisemitic to raise such questions?

- AaronW

April 9, 2012 at 5:10am

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"If so, does such action in violation of international norms justify censure of Israel on this basis if no other on the part of foreign governments, non-governmental organizations and individuals? If so, is it foolish of the current Israeli government to isolate itself in this way? Caveat: "It's complicated" is not an answer." Israel has said that it willing to forego most settlements on the West Bank when an agreement is reached between them and the PA. Israel has also stated that those settlements closest to Jerusalem it will keep and annex in exchange for a similar amount of territory to be given to the PA from land inside the green line. Sorry, it's complicated is the only answer you will get right now because neither side is willing to move on this issue. Declaring human beings illegal and and then justifying their murders is also illegal and makes it that much harder for Israel to withdraw from these settlements I am all for withdrawal and for a two State solution. However right now the issues are complicated and made even more complicated by people who blame Israel and justify mass murder of Jews. Millions of human beings live illegally in countries not their own yet no one suggests that they should be murdered. Why the double standard? Finally only and international court can decide what is legal and what is illegal here.

- arnon1

April 9, 2012 at 6:24am

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roi says "I was expecting noga to tell us that Gideon Levy and Haaretz are anti-Semitic. " __________________ http://www.news1.co.il/archive/0019-D-1068-00.html?tag=14-23-47 According to the Israeli author, Irit Linur, in a private conversation with the radical Leftist journalist from Haaretz, he told her that he wouldn't drive 100 yards to rescue the life of such a species, a "settler" (שיחה פרטית איתו, אמר לי פעם שהוא לא היה נוסע מאה מטר כדי להציל את חייו של מתנחל ). I took that to mean that if he could drive 100 yards to save the lives of the Fogel children in Itamar, he wouldn't do that. And roi tells us that we are supposed to take moral lessons from the likes of such a person.

- noga1

April 9, 2012 at 7:42am

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Continued: According to the Israeli author, Irit Linur, in a private conversation with the radical Leftist journalist from Haaretz, he told her that he wouldn't drive 100 yards to rescue the life of such a species, a "settler" (שיחה פרטית איתו, אמר לי פעם שהוא לא היה נוסע מאה מטר כדי להציל את חייו של מתנחל ). I took that to mean that if he could drive 100 yards to save the lives of the Fogel children in Itamar, he wouldn't do that. And roi tells us that we are supposed to take moral lessons from the likes of such a person.

- noga1

April 9, 2012 at 7:46am

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It isn't complicated at all. Israel is in flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention that prohibits the transfer of an occupiers own population into occupied territory. On top of that are a slew of UNSC resolutions calling on Israel to desist. It matters not one whit whether the occupation itself is legal or the war in which it the territory came to be occupied was legal. The settlements are illegal. Moreover, the International Court of Justice has already decided that the settlements are illegal in the case about the security fence. As for their impact on Israel's security claims, the Israeli justice on the ICJ dissented on the grounds that insufficient attention was given to the security justification for the fence. However, he concurred that the settlements are illegal and opined that, to the extent the security fence was was routed so as to protect illegal settlements, it too is illegal. Israel has no business insisting on retaining one illegal settlement as a condition to peace. That makes it a lawbreaker and aggressor. It is not a concession to peace to agree to keep that to which you have no right and are holding illegally by force of arms. It is an obstacle to peace. And it is not as if any of this was a secret or a late surprise after the fact. Israel has been violating UNSC resolutions on the point for decades. Nor is the language of the Fourth Geneva Convention at all obscure. Further, Israel's formula of "land swaps" for the settlements is a fraud. By this Israel means that it keeps what it wants and considers defensible in exchange for scraps of desert that no one wants. The land swaps are a fig leaf in Israel's forlorn effort to legitimize the settlements. A genuine bargain for exchange of land would involve trading, land the Arabs want for land Israel wants. If such a bargain could be struck, fine, but it requires a bona fide effort to bargain. If not, then Israel has no claim on the occupied territory. None. It can insist as a condition to ending its occupation on measures necessary for its security. Nothing more. Israel's strategy is clear, however, to hold the Palestinians and their independence hostage until they will agree to Israel's illicit demands. In this manner, Israel illegally perpetuates the conflict, a conflict that threatens to grow wider and damage interests far afield from Israel. Thus, Israel is, as Grass said, a nuclear power that is a threat to world peace. That Grass, for whatever reason, even that he is actually a Nazi, went on to make the false, hyperbolic claim that Israel threatens to destroy Iran does not change that reality one iota. Nor will anyone but the usual suspects be impressed by the standard maneuver in defense of Israel, pillorying Grass as an anti-Semite. There are already so many, from Thomas Friedman on down, who have been characterized as such by Israel's defenders, the charge is deployed so profligately, that it has lost its force. It is the standard tactic, applied whether it fits or it doesn't fit. These days, if you are not accused of being an anti-Semite by Israeli ultra-nationalists and fellow travelers, you can be pretty sure you have said nothing relevant at all.

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 10:05am

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Not a single piece of the places named by Jaimechuch is occupied territory. Every bit is incorporated into some state, even if the claims of that state are disputed. In my opinion, Israel would not be in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention if it had incorporated the occupied territory, something it has carefully refrained from doing. If it did, then it would have to accord the inhabitants full political rights within Israel -- the one state solution -- or be guilty of the crime of apartheid. Further, although the UN essentially permitted Israel to incorporate territory gained in the War of Independence, territory of which the UN itself was the de facto sovereign as successor to the Palestinian Mandate, by 1967 it had wised up. UNSC resolutions have made it impossible for Israel to do so. The UN itself is the sovereign in the occupied territory and no force of arms can perfect a claim against it. If Israel will not make its peace with the Palestinians, eventually the UN will assert its authority over the occupied territory and impose a settlement. It will happen eventually, but if there is but one crisis, such as an Israeli attack on Iran, that seriously compromises the interests of the rest of the world, the US will stop sheltering Israel from the consequences of its own illegal actions. Americans are not going to pay a price that is discernible to them just so that Israel can maintain its illegal settlements. Even Ariel Sharon could see the handwriting on the wall, although himself was a major architect of the settlement policy Netanyahu is too stupid. He will be remembered with all the scorn now heaped on Chamberlain.

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 10:12am

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Because noga "takes that to mean" that Levy literally would not do anything to protect the Fogel children does not mean that that is at all the case. That is her own malign interpretation of words that we don't even know Levy ever uttered. I read that Netanyahu said privately that the greatest threat to Israel is not Iran but Haaretz and The New York Times. Does that mean he said it? Can we "take that to mean" that Netanyahu is a bona fide fascist? Moreover, at least in English, the expression, "I wouldn't cross the street to help so and so if he were dying [hit by a truck, etc.]" is not at all uncommon as an expression of extreme disdain or hatred. No one who hears this understands it to be more or less than that. There is no version that applies it to someone's children, even if one is being extremely literal. Noga simply "takes it to mean" that. Whose morals are thereby implicated?

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 10:21am

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Seems that Irit Linur is someone with a big ax to grind regarding Gideon Levy: "Gideon, the eldest of two sons of Nazi holocaust survivors, was born in Tel Aviv in 1953. In an interview with ABC on 11 June 2007, he described his “modest mission” as being “to prevent a situation in which many Israelis will be able to say, ‘We didn’t know.’” He is constantly critical of what he describes as Israeli society’s “moral blindness” to the effects of its acts of war and occupation; and he has described the construction of illegal settlements on private Palestinian land as “the most criminal enterprise in Israel’s history” On the subject of Israel’s most recent war on the Gaza Strip, (an offensive which I described as a naked act of Zionist state terrorism, war crimes and all), Gideon wrote that it was a complete failure. “The conclusion is that Israel is a violent and dangerous country, devoid of all restraints and blatantly ignoring the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council, while not giving a hoot about international law.” He supports a unilateral withdrawal from occupied Palestinian territories without demanding concessions. “Israel”, he has written, “is not being asked ‘to give’ anything to the Palestinians; it is only being asked to return – to return their stolen land and restore their trampled self-respect, along with their fundamental human rights and humanity.” Gideon is, of course, vilified by some Israelis and other supporters of the Zionist state right or wrong everywhere. In 2002, Israeli novelist Irit Linur sparked a wave of subscription cancellations to Ha’aretz when she wrote an open letter to the paper cancelling her own subscription. “It is a person’s right to be a radical leftist, and publish a newspaper in accordance with his world view… However Ha’aretz has reached the point where its anti-Zionism has become stupid and evil,” she wrote. http://www.alanhart.net/the-truth-about-israel-as-only-gideon-levy-can-tell-it/

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 10:28am

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It should not be forgotten that, for years, successive Israeli government insisted the settlements were not illegal because they were not permanent and could and would be withdrawn in the context of a peace settlement. The Arabs said that was a lie, meant to cover the theft of their land. It seems the Arabs were right all along. This massive violation of the human rights of the Palestinian Arabs, rights guaranteed to them by the Fourth Geneva Convention, is something we are all supposed to ignore. But if Günter Grass is extreme in condemnation of Israeli policy, we are supposed to get ourselves all wound up in moral outrage. The Holocaust, you know. It wipes away all sins committed by Jews, past, present, and future, and makes of anyone who questions Israel's conduct in the world a Nazi.

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 10:38am

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roi contoniues in his downward spiral, trying to cleanse the well known) sheretz, gideon levi ( his new hero, so it seems) by quoting a fawning article about levi written by the same author who wrote a book about Zionism, entitled, what do you know, "Zionism is the true enemy of the Jews". Here is a quote: "The colonial enterprise that Zionism is has corrupted everything it touched, beginning with the United Nations and including the mainstream media, what passes for democracy in the Western world (America especially) and Judaism itself.[3]". "In an article published on the Iranian run Press TV, Hart described Zionists as “The New Nazis” and argue that “Europeans and Americans could have stopped the original Nazis and prevented the extermination of six million Jews. If Europeans and Americans do not stop the New Nazis, it is likely that their end game will be the extermination of millions of Palestinians.”[4] (wiki) These are the writers roi wishes us to heed and learn from, to have inform our understanding and knowledge of Israel. Let me repeat that roi quoted Gideon Levi, who is reported by Irit Linur, an Israeli author, as stating "that he wouldn't drive 100 yards to rescue the life of such a species, a "settler" (שיחה פרטית איתו, אמר לי פעם שהוא לא היה נוסע מאה מטר כדי להציל את חייו של מתנחל ). The Fogel children in Itamar are "settlers" in every aspect of the word. Levi wouldn't drive 100 yards to save them from the knives of the Palestinian murderers who butchered them in their sleep. Ist here any other way of interpreting that comment, by the son a Holocaust survivors? The very son of Holocaust survivors who rushes to defend Gunter Grass against the indefensible? This is what we need to pay attention to, when we read roi's fulminations. We need to know who his heroes are, whom he reads and what kind of knowledge informs his position.

- noga1

April 9, 2012 at 10:43am

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Gunter Grass fantasizing about Israel's genodical aspiration for Iran, Alan Hart fantasizing about Israel's genocidal aspirations for the Palestinians, Gideon Levi finding truth in both of these persons and roi with his well documented anti-Israel animus quoting and defending Gideon Levi and Gunter Grass by quoting Alan Hart. It doesn't get any better than that. (But somehow I'm sure it will, with roi being in presence and good shape here).

- noga1

April 9, 2012 at 10:53am

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"End of story." Only for the fool who likes spouting freely but makes it obvious he can't deal with a concrete historical question.

- ironyroad

April 9, 2012 at 11:29am

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The schlemiel has spoken.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 11:43am

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He is so stupid can not qualify to be a schmuck.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 11:45am

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Chamberlain was the appeaser arming German nazis. Fortunately he was thrown out and replaced by the real hero Churchil the one that saved and succeeded in the Battle of Britain. But we have the stupid schlemiel trying to re-ass-ess history. old stinking fart. How imbecilic you can be. Yes we have our mentally handicapped in our clan.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 11:53am

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End of story stupid.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 11:55am

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Of course, noga, it takes not very long before you have to resort to lies, now does it. I have not defended Günter Grass. And my "well documented anti-Israel animus" is exactly as well documented as your own race hatred for Moslems and genocidal fantasies toward them. All very well documented. You can never make a case for anything other than against the perverted lies you attempt to plant in other people's mouths. Same old, same old. Propagandist to the core. Moreover, you can never make an argument of any kind that is not an assault on someone's character. Everything one can say about Israel's policies is, in your mind, answered by what you think you can dredge up as a smear about whomever says it. If you cannot find one uttered by someone else, you don't hesitate to make one up. Never anything but. The piece I excerpted from Hart (it was Hart approving of Levy, not the other way around -- no detail small enough that you will not mangle it) because it notes that Levy is the son of Holocaust survivors. Not that that suffices to negate accusations by such as you that he is an anti-Semite, Jew-hater, Israel-hater. The equation is very simple for you: Anyone who deplores Israel's illegal settlement of the occupied territories, anyone morally conscious enough to notice how it dishonors the memory of those who perished in the Holocaust let alone observes that it a threat to peace, is perforce an anti-Semite. And you allow the word morality to pass your lips? The second noteworthy point is that Irit Linur is hardly an objective journalist when it comes to Gideon Levy. Thus, there is no particular reason to accept her word about anything Levy purportedly said to her. We don't need to know who informs your thoughts. We don't need to engage in your incessant tactic of trying to associate this one with that one with the other one as a smear. Your own words are quite sufficient to brand you as morally bereft. Go ahead, repeat, repeat, repeat that Levy says he would not go out of his way to rescue the Fogel children. The more you repeat this slander, fabricated entirely by you, the more ugly and naked you are. A dozen more repetitions at least, please. More, more, more of your lies, please. Heap them upon us. Let them flow without restraint. Let's see the real noga, right here and now, no more hiding.

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 11:59am

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Jaime, you appear to like spouting about things you don't have much of a clue about. I'm not saying that Chamberlain's decision at Munich was morally right or ethically secure or anything like that. I am, however, saying that the Battle of Britain in 1940 was a damned close-run thing -- as anyone involved would admit -- and to imagine it taking place a year to 18 months earlier is to also imagine how it could have played out WITHOUT the elements that secured a narrow victory over the Nazi Luftwaffe. If you think Europe would have been better off with a Britain beaten out of the war in 1939 with a wrecked air force, cities with more casualties from the bombing, and no possibility of developing the key strategies and technologies that won in reality, then I don't understand your perspective. If you just assert w/o evidence that everything would have worked out, then that's not thinking, it's magical incantation.

- ironyroad

April 9, 2012 at 12:03pm

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"I'm not saying that Chamberlain's decision at Munich was morally right or ethically secure or anything like that." We had this conversation before and at the time I conceded that you had a point I was not aware of. Once I stated that, you, ironyroad, then wrote that that doesn't mean to agreed with Chamberlain's decision. I was confused and left it at that. But now you are repeating the same dance with Jaime. You disagree with his reading of Chamberlain and at the same time you declare that you do not disagree with his judgment of Chamberlain. So please, can you enlighten me about what your own position is? How can Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler be unethical and at the same time Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler be the only realistic choice, dictated by Britain's military needs? Isn't the only realistic choice sometimes the ONLY ethical choice? If you think so, why not just state it?

- noga1

April 9, 2012 at 12:14pm

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ironyroad is not a schlemiel, Jaime. From your autobiographical stories and the material and scope of knowledge you demonstrate here (when you are not under the spell of galicianerism) it is clear to me that you are a very erudite and even deep thinker. How, then, can you repeatedly misjudge ironyroad's first-rate intellect and razor-sharp wit?

- noga1

April 9, 2012 at 12:19pm

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The emus are curious big birds, they watch other animals and humans. They can not distinguish ,though, the stupid one from others, the admirer of Chamberlain the naive appeaser responsible for arming German nazis. Only the genius of Churchill, the courage and determination of Churchill, the oratory skills of Churchill , led England and the west to victory over the German nazis. But we have stupid , a real imbecile demonstrated by all his babbling blogs, now trying to re-ass-es history. In the past he has defended self hatred Jew Thomas Friedman. he has defended the only Christian Americans fought Iraqi war statement. And now he is defending treacherous appeasers allowing theocratic Iran to acquire nuclear weapons. As always a stupid remains stupid. End result the appeasement of Chamberlain allowing arming German nazis, led to the Holocaust killing half of the Jewish population, 6 million including one million children, and the overall dead of 50 to 70 million people. How stupid can you get, old fart. You are so mentally handicapped as a schlemiel that you don't qualify to be a schmuck. Others are charitable with you and pity you. But this time you are beyond contempt. And for your info I don't read your idiotic bah..bah...bah..lings. End of story.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 12:32pm

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Let's make sure we all understand the moral calculus in noga world. First, whatever Levy writes regarding Grass, including noting that Grass falsely claimed that Israel has threatened Iran with nuclear weapons, can be dismissed because noga has branded Levy a "well known sheretz [unclean thing, low life]." Case closed. Any response to the substance of what Levy said in commenting about Grass? None. Not necessary. Noga has impugned Levy's character, nothing more required. Just as, if Grass' character can be impugned, no one need pay any attention to what he expresses, even if the sentiments are shared by millions in the western world. Why, if Netanyahu, the clod, bars Grass from Israel, surely all of Europe will cease to pay attention to him. That problem is solved. The Israeli government lies for decades to cover its scheme of illegal colonization of occupied territory, violating the human rights of millions, immiserating millions. Millions of actual, living human beings. No big deal for noga, neither the lies nor the deeds. For arnon, this is "complicated." And anyone who is sufficiently morally alert to note and deplore this is ipso facto a Jew-hater and and Israel-hater, like Levy, the son of two Holocaust survivors. Case closed. No need to discuss any further what Israel is actually doing to millions of people. Then Günter Grass gets carried away and hyperbolically accuses Israel of threatening Iran with nuclear weapons (Israel is indeed threatening to bomb Iran so it is at least possible that Grass is actually confused about just how much or little Israel proposes to bomb) and we are to be stunned, shocked, appalled by the horror of this verbal crime. This is supposed to be morality?

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 12:33pm

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Jaime is a Jew-hater, as long as the Jews are Galicianers. Its just a question of which Jews, you see. These fine distinctions are very important. As long as you don't hate Litvaks, you are above reproach. The moral comedy at TNR rolls on.

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 12:37pm

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I don't know, Noga. I've thought about this and I have to admit that it just feels good to murmur "Appeasement!" and think oneself a better person than Chamberlain. After all, who wants to be an appeaser? Ugh! But then I remember some of the things people have said who were around at the time (I think there was an early Marcel Ophuls documentary about Munich that I watched a long time ago) and they seemed to be almost desperate to get people to understand the state of Britain's air defenses in 1938 and early 1939 at a point when the Germans had put the largest and most advanced bomber force on the continent together. So I can't say much except to say that Chamberlain is for me a tragic figure who had to make a decision that historically would be condemned despite its objective rationality. It is of course possible that Chamberlain made the objectively correct decision but for bad -- appeasement-type -- reasons. It is also possible that Hitler might have been so astonished if he had met resistance in Munich that he would have sat back and changed -- or delayed -- his plans. In any case, it's all historical second-guessing.

- ironyroad

April 9, 2012 at 12:43pm

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noga1. You are a kind person, and a charitable one. If you notice he insulted me first. In the past I tried to ignore him. I strongly disagree with you. He is mentally handicapped, he has a sort of mental dyslexia, and always tends to be an appeaser. He denied that Thomas Friedman is a self hatred Jew, after his infamous article claiming the AIPAC had bought all of Congress to give Netanyahu more than twenty standing ovations. He interfered in my criticizing that only Christians have done the USA war fighting. He has supported for Iran to obtain nuclear bombs. Well maybe mentally dyslexic is in reality in plus of stupid , a schlemilic meshumet. You are nice and patient, and I admire you for that. You are like a kind nurse for this mentally challenged individual. Thank you for your help. Good luck.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 12:49pm

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Jaime, if you stop foaming at the mouth and think about your comments before you post them, you will recall that Churchill took over the government in May 1940 -- and BY THEN the fighter aircraft and the radar system were in place to enable a real chance of defeating Nazi air power. That is, from my perspective, Churchill was able to command the assets that had been developed with intense speed over the two years since Munich. Nobody puts it like that, of course, but it's true.

- ironyroad

April 9, 2012 at 12:51pm

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Oh, too funny! Perhaps my memory deceives me, but I seem to remember JaimeChuch excoriating noga not too long ago in exactly the sort of language he now addresses to ironyroad. The hilarity never ceases at TNR (at least when the defenders of Israel are around).

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 1:07pm

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roi..dent the Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew apologizer for Iran and German nazis, is trying hard to turn over the omelet. He demonizes Israel, he demonizes Netanyahu , he loves Ahmadenijad and ayatollah Khameini and repeatedly have said so, and now he defends and admires German nazis. well, no surprises here, after all he is a Galicianer self hatred Jew, known for being dishonest, liars and double crossers back stabbers. Watch his every writing, this character is pure evil. He desires deep in his schtomach the destruction of Israel. But he remains a failed mediocrity. He blabbers over and over about international issues of the liberated territories. I listed many of the cases that as always the internationals have done nothin as failed mediocrities. The roi..dent looked the other way. How about Kashmir, Belize, the Falklands/Malvinas, Gibraltar, Hong Kong, Guantanamo, Taiwan, that little island Japan and Russia quarrel about, and many others. The roi..dent, hemor..roid failed mediocre is mute mute mute. And how about over half of the USA was taken fair and square from Mexico. Not that there is nothing wrong about. The Mexicans are really piste off about it, they say USA should have taken all of Mexico, they would be much better off today. same rational by the Palestinians via beloved Israel. This really makes hemor..roid mad, too much suffering on top of his inept mediocrity.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 1:13pm

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Oh yes, I forgot: "He denied that Thomas Friedman is a self hatred Jew" I just want to say, Jaime, that I have no memory of asserting or denying that Friedman is the one or the other kind of Jew. I'm not Jewish myself and thus I avoid making remarks like that, which would be silly and -- at least to me -- an intrusion into things I can't judge. Obviously, I've supported Friedman's comments on the Middle East at various times, but I've no opinion on what, if any, his personal type or degree of self-hatred is.

- ironyroad

April 9, 2012 at 1:22pm

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Schlemiel you are being taken care by noga1, she understands you and knows all of your needs. But watch for evil Galicianer dishonest failed mediocrity self hatred Jew apologizer for Iran and defender of German nazis. Stop re-ass-ing history. Please noga1 give him his calming shot. Do you have one for failed mediocrity roi..dent, hemor...roid? He really needs big chief medicine just up his tuches.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 1:23pm

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Schlemiel you are being taken care by noga1, she understands you and knows all of your needs. But watch for evil Galicianer dishonest failed mediocrity self hatred Jew apologizer for Iran and defender of German nazis. Stop re-ass-ing history. Please noga1 give him his calming shot. Do you have one for failed mediocrity roi..dent, hemor...roid? He really needs big chief medicine just up his tuches.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 1:23pm

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besides the German nazis were planning invading Britain, but were dissuaded because analyzes showed it would be a failure. Besides by that time they decided to invade Russia. The brilliant triumph of Churchil in the Battle of Britain opened the eyes of the USA to enter the war.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 1:33pm

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None of Kashmir, Belize, the Falklands, Gibraltar, Hong Kong, Guantanamo, Taiwan, or the Kuriles is under military occupation. Some are disputed territories. Disputed territory is not the same thing as occupied territory. I would explain the differences and the implications for international human rights law to someone who is neither crazy nor stupid yet still in need of enlightenment., but I don't see anyone around here who fits that bill. So I won't bother myself. _____________________ I don't think your point is trivial, irony, but the military history I read says that Hitler was not prepared for war in 1938 and that, relatively, was weaker then than in late 1939. However, it is more than likely that Münich made no ultimate difference. Hitler was going to attempt to dominate Europe by military force as soon as he felt able to do so. Stalin had no illusions that the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact would prevent war with Hitler, but he really did need to buy time. Hitler may have refrained in 1938, but he would have eventually invaded Czechoslovakia and Poland, and then Russia, unless Britain and France were prepared to invade and subdue Germany before it could do so. That is not likely, Churchill notwithstanding. Yet history is not kind to Chamberlain because he does not seem to have understood the inevitability of war with Germany and was not merely engaged in a tactical retreat. To all appearances, he really believed that he had bought "peace in our time."

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 1:53pm

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ironyroad. See your comment below defending Thomas Friedman. You were wrong then as you are wrong now. Your 4:16 pm comment http://www.tnr.com/article/world/101440/obama-netanyahu-israel-iran-aipac-foreign-policy COMMENTS (259) 03/07/2012 - 2:05am EDT | ironyroad It's also important to keep the Iranians guessing, rather than giving them more information than they need. It's not the president's job to lay out fixed lines of response but it is his job to make the direction of American policy clear. Under that umbrella, different things can take place. It seems fairly obvious that one could, for example, make a public declaration of a commitment to diplomacy (genuinely meant) while delivering through other means such as naval movements and sanctions administration a message that things are going to get tougher. 03/07/2012 - 5:00am EDT | bunthorne You know what, Halevi, fuck you. Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. Can you please point to the part of the oath of office which states that the primary job of the president is to cater to every little whim of Israel? How can it still be so goddamned confusing to you that Obama puts the interests of the US above those of a foreign nation? 03/07/2012 - 7:16am EDT | amidut Bunthorne, HaLevi is an Israeli citizen living in a perilous situation, but I am a US citizen, and so are millions of other Israel supporters in the United States. Obama is not the United States incarnate. He is, yes, an elected President, not a King. I voted for Obama in 2008 and will likely not vote for him this year. As much as I share the liberal perspective on the US economy, I will not be party to betraying Israel. I wish I could share Irony's confidence in the Obama administration. When Panetta promises that action will be taken when all other options are exhausted, that condition is to be determined by the Obama administration, not the country in peril, Israel. The administration was ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 7:28am EDT | amidut Let me add Rashid Khalid to Obama's spotty history. 03/07/2012 - 8:35am EDT | noga1 "Can you please point to the part of the oath of office which states that the primary job of the president is to cater to every little whim of Israel?" What's the "little whim" you are referencing here, bunthorne? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020345860457726338240748898... "Should Israelis and pro-Israel Americans take President Obama at his word when he says—as he did at the American Israel Public Affairs Committee policy conference in Washington, D.C., on Sunday—"I have Israel's back"? No. Here is ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 8:38am EDT | noga1 And about Khalidi's influence on shaping Obama's positions about Israel: http://www.martinkramer.org/sandbox/2009/06/sweeping-khalidi-under-obama... "Wolf has impressions about Obama’s initial views on Israel more than specifics, and the impression was one of sympathy for the views that he and their mutual friend, Palestinian advocate Rashid Khalidi, expressed to him on Israel—views including the need to pressure Israel to give up the West Bank. In retrospect, he believes that Obama was carefully considering thei ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 8:47am EDT | noga1 About Bibi: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/lorna-fitzsimons/we-need-to-talk-about-b... in response to this, by Avi Shlaim, a known anti-Zionist "New historian": "The central thread of Netanyahu's policy, [Shlaim] argues, is "outright hatred towards the Arabs in general and the Palestinians in particular." Bibi "does not believe in peaceful co-existence" but in the "never-ending struggle between the forces of light and the forces of darkness" - hence his war-mongering over I ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 8:47am EDT | makover I think that Halevi describes with great precision the feeling of Israelis. 03/07/2012 - 9:58am EDT | ginzy Speaking from the Eastern end of the Mediterranean (the one not slaughtering its citizens) Y.K.Halevi does I think capture what many, if not most Israelis feel. Keep in mind that Halevi is very much the moderate who oscillates on a center-moderate left axis. And bunthorne also demonstrates why in the end Israel will probably have to deal with Iran one on one. I don't say this happily, but rather grimly but with a mix of determination and resignation. It's my sons (including the father of my granddaughter) and son-in-law, all combat soldiers now in the reserves, who will be called up for emergency reserve duty to secure the country's borders and deal with a possible rocket barrage from Hezb ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 10:57am EDT | K2K amidut: well stated. and, always good to hear from you ginzy. I forced myself to watch/listen to Obama's AIPAC speech. I still do not know if he was being honest, but he sure did not look or sound like he wanted to be there. Using "have your back" was so out of character - that is a police and military term that has real meaning. (it is what Rick Perry said, after calling for sanctions on Iran's Central Bank) Of course, I am more curious as to why Nancy Pelosi used the word "evacuate" instead of "excavate" when she was referring to the archaelogical dig that uncovered the 2,700 year old seal with "Netanyahu" in Hebrew. Will future US policy be to evacuate Jerusalem, the etern ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 11:15am EDT | wildboy "Nor does Obama’s record in the Middle East more broadly reassure Israelis. Perhaps the worst moment of his presidency was turning his back on the Iranian anti-government demonstrators in 2009, who chanted “Obama, are you with us or with the regime?” Obama’s silence was a historic missed opportunity. So is his current inaction on Syria, Iran’s most important ally. There appears to be no strategic coherence in his Middle East policy. Why, for example, help bring down Qaddafi, as odious as he was, after he had abandoned his nuclear program and his support of terrorism—while allowing Assad a free hand?" I have a hard time believing that Halevi is this dense. Even if Obama's policy o ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 11:27am EDT | arnon1 This article is wrong headed. Obama spoke to Israel because it's Israel that doubt doubts his intention to challenge Iran's development of nuclear bombs. Halevi also confuses the Iranian crisis with the stalled peace process. All in all a disappointing article written by a usually very astute analyst of the Israeli scene. 03/07/2012 - 11:49am EDT | amidut K2K, I feel sorry for Nancy Pelosi. She is an astute politician and legislator. She knew the mood of her audience, but couldn't deviate from the White House message. If only Obama had her back and Harry Reid's back during all the tussle over health care reform. Wildboy, the relationship between Left and the Jewish voters has become an abusive one. Whenever some Jews deviate on matters of Jewish concern, all the patronizing house Jews come out of the American Left's Yevsektsia to abuse us and warn us of the dire consequences of independent thought and action. If the United States could not anticipate the democracy protests in Iran, as Wildboy admits, how good is its military intelligence? We ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 11:51am EDT | blackton all Israel has to do is wait until after November's elections and they will have free rein to do what they want. If Obama wins he will not have to worry about running for re-election and if Romney wins then no way in hell would he object. The greatest catastrophe for Israel would be for them to act now and either cost Obama the election and then have to deal with a deep, long standing enmity amongst millions of Democrats from now on or if Israel acts now but Obama still wins then they will have to deal with the enmity of the Democrats and a sitting President all of whom will despise Netanyahu and will not be inclined to lift a finger for Israel. I can deal with the fallout of an Israeli actio ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 12:10pm EDT | roidubouloi When faced with an existential crisis, build a few apartments in Jerusalem. What could be more important? And what could be more indicative of the disdain of Netanyahu at least, and perhaps a large part or even the majority, of the Israeli electorate for the United States and for the notion that the relationship demands reciprocity. Israel taxes the United States. With its vulnerability and the US commitment to Israel's defense, it has yoked us to its settlement policy, a policy that violates the Fourth Geneva Convention, a multitude of UNSC resolutions, is deplored by the entire world, rejected as illegal by the ICJ, including conspicuously by the Israeli justice, and is, yes, contrary to ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 12:12pm EDT | wildboy "Wildboy, the relationship between Left and the Jewish voters has become an abusive one. Whenever some Jews deviate on matters of Jewish concern, all the patronizing house Jews come out of the American Left's Yevsektsia to abuse us and warn us of the dire consequences of independent thought and action." Amidut, I hope that you were one of those Jews who voted for George W. Bush in 2004, primarily on the basis of his stalwart support of Israel in facing down the Second Intifadah and his Global War on Muslim terrorists. If so, you got exactly what you deserved, right down to the financial crisis. How did that "independent thought and action" work out for ya? 03/07/2012 - 12:16pm EDT | wildboy Oh, and Amidut, did Israeli intelligence anticipate those Iranian protests in 2009? If so, I don't recall reading about it anywhere. That would have been something they would have bragged about, in showing how well Israel understands Iranian society, right? 03/07/2012 - 12:22pm EDT | NR851651 Yes - more adjectives please! Maybe Obama should start calling the "military option" the "military option of extreme harm, destruction, and death." What he needs is some sort of branding expert really. Maybe he should pitch his boring sanctions as "mangling measures" or something like that ... a little alliteration could go a long way. 03/07/2012 - 12:22pm EDT | roidubouloi I pretty much concur with blackton. Obama has done his best not only to inform Israel, Iran, and the world of what US policy is, independent of that of Israel if you can imagine such a thing, but to insulate himself politically from negative consequences should Israel proceed on its own and make a big mess of it and the world economy. If he were seen in any way as condoning Israeli action, he would not only be inviting the mess, but chaining himself to it. Being well-positioned at least to say I told you so is the soundest course for him and for us. I am encouraged at Obama's threading of this needle. Not perfect (how could it be perfect in the face of a political anomaly such as AIPAC? ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 12:29pm EDT | ironyroad "I wish I could share Irony's confidence in the Obama administration." Well, I think there is some evidence for confidence, in particular the contrast between the focus shown by this administration and the drift the Iran policy showed under its predecessor. Also fwiw I think there should be a new version of the absurd point in any discussion, the Argumentum ad Hitlerandum (you know, when someone scrapes the bottom of the barrel and says something like 'Well Hitler was a vegetarian too!'). I'm going to call it the Khalidi Pirouette, and it describes the moment when, lost for anything else to bring up against Obama's foreign policy, the speaker/writer whirls around and snaps "And he was a friend of Rashid Khalidi!" 03/07/2012 - 12:30pm EDT | JAIMECHUCH It is imperative that the republicans do not win in November. They are mortal enemies of the middle class. What we have seen this week is two friends USA and Israel that agreed to disagree. Both leaders Obama and Netanyahu were as always very articulate , very intelligent, frank, honest and assertive. It was a show of democratic free world discourse. I wish the middle eastern countries would do the same. I hope that Israel will obtain the alliance of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, the Kurds from Iraq, Azerbaijan in stopping Iran from nuclear weapons. I have been wondering why Sadam used chemical/biological weapons exclusively against the Kurds in Iran and in Iraq. Why he never used them against the Shi ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 12:32pm EDT | roidubouloi You shouldn't have to wait long, irony. 03/07/2012 - 12:49pm EDT | ironyroad Oh yes, I'd also like to point out something that keeps getting missed here: the process by which Obama is reframing the Iranian threat from something that hangs over Israel into something that hangs over the region and, ultimately, U.S. national security interests at the highest level. Friedman laid it out this morning in the NYT quite effectively and I'm pretty damn sure that Netanyahu knows exactly what the president is doing. This changes the nature of the whole discussion and gets it out from under some "Mirror mirror on the wall / Who's the more pro-Israeli of us all?" competition in which the one who shouts loudest wins. If carried out effectively, it makes Iran realize that Israel is only one aspect of what they have to deal with. Teheran can bluster, but they understand that (a) they have to decide if they really want to base their future on some Islamist fantasy and (b) they are not going to get the free ride they got between 2001 and 2008. 03/07/2012 - 12:52pm EDT | JAIMECHUCH According to one erratic blogger stated that the budget of USA intelligence agencies is larger than Israel GDP. This lie is such a lie, Israel GDP is 240 billion, that is more than risible. And the USA intelligence agencies failed in predicting, and understanding, first the Iranian society uprising, followed by the Arab spring. It is not only the failure of Israel in the understanding of these societies, but that of the " enormously rich USA intelligence agencies". The king... Is a dishonest distorter, shame on him, followed by the other soon to be domesticated and to become a grownup fellow blogger. Two of a kind, dishonest, distorters, and above all biased very very biased. 03/07/2012 - 1:09pm EDT | JAIMECHUCH I guess the message doesn't get through. The NYT and it's spokesmen Thomas Friedman and Roger Cohen are fiercely anti Israel distorting and dishonest, very biased. Their credibility is much less than zero. The logo of the NYT is "all the biased news fit to print". Roger Cohen distinguished himself as an Iranian apologist. Thomas Friedman not only posts anti Israel diatribes. But also anti Semitic. On Netanyauh's previous speech to Congress, where he received multiple standing ovations, Thomas wrote that all of Congress had been bribed by the Israel lobby. All the biased news fit to print. I kid you not. 03/07/2012 - 1:17pm EDT | JAIMECHUCH I have told over and over to my fellow articulate blogger to stick to correcting grammar. 03/07/2012 - 1:24pm EDT | JAIMECHUCH Lunch break. 03/07/2012 - 1:26pm EDT | wildboy Enough of this Iran stuff! What I really want to know is whether JAIMECHUCH is celebrating Purim starting at sundown tonight, like most Jews, or if he is celebrating it on Chuchan Purim starting at sundown tomorrow? 03/07/2012 - 1:27pm EDT | roidubouloi Calm down, Jaime. It was a joke, meant to draw attention to the reality that the US is going to decide whether to make war on Iran based both on its own interests and its own intelligence assessments. However, the fact is that the US intelligence budge is northwards of 35% of Israel's GDP. Now, you might think that the US would be better off ignoring its own intelligence services and depending instead on Israel's. Maybe you would be right. But for bureaucratic reasons alone, even assuming the US gets nothing for its $80 billion a year, that is not going to happen. More generally, the fantasy that Israel's experience of urgency and angst is going to be the mover of US policy -- even wer ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 1:38pm EDT | amidut Wildboy and others: I voted for Al Gore in 2000 and John Kerry in 2004. 03/07/2012 - 1:44pm EDT | roidubouloi And so? 03/07/2012 - 3:10pm EDT | wildboy "When faced with an existential crisis, build a few apartments in Jerusalem. What could be more important?" Roid, those two sentences are a great formulation of just about everything that's wrong with the current Israeli government and its relations with the US. 03/07/2012 - 3:12pm EDT | IggyPop I really do wish TNR would publish one article, just one, that isn't regurgitating the same line, over and over and over again on this issue. In serious danger here of being seen as a propaganda outlet rather than a serious magazine. 03/07/2012 - 3:25pm EDT | amidut IggyPop is welcome to peruse The Nation, American Prospect, The Guardian, The New York Review of Books and all the other predictably anti-Israel organs. He's just upset that TNR takes a more independent line on Israel. He has a strange definition of quality: adherence to the party line. 03/07/2012 - 3:33pm EDT | IggyPop You could argue it's independent all right Amidut. (Although every article I've read in other brands, including the ones you mention, all frame the question in the same terms: when to strike, how to strike, etc.) If this is an independent approach, then it's certainly a myopic one. It's essentially the same article by analysts, professors, politicians, citizens, again and again and again. 03/07/2012 - 3:37pm EDT | JAIMECHUCH Well, no kidding, our articulate blogger goes haywire , now is 80 billion handout from USA to Israel. we better check the NASDAQ with the large number of Israeli companies making billions for American investors. Just ask Intel, Microsoft, HP, Apple what they think about their billions in investment in Israel. My fortune cookie advised: avert misunderstanding by calm, poise and balance. No way with dishonest, distorted bloggers. Why are they anti Israel? Why are they self hatred Jews? Maybe bad experiences during their youth? Maybe jealousy ? Nobody knows. They probably don't know. One is a frustrated , maybe, fired diplomat. The other ... Why don't you tell us the truth. We are listening soon ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 3:53pm EDT | JAIMECHUCH IggyPop are you referring to demonization of republican candidates. Adulation of incumbent Obama. Or what. However I am against republicans winning in November, they are enemies of the middle class. Anyhow. TNR is the only free for all boogers site. Even you can give credit to this. Now we have established self discipline. Try to blog in the NYT, it is screened for everything specially if you criticize their obsessed anti Israel policies. TNR is true freedom of the press, NYT is all the biased news fit to print. However I am a fan of the Yankees , and the NYT reporting of the Bronx baseball team is just terrific. Otherwise I bypass Thomas Friedman, Roger Cohen, and all their reporting, edito ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 4:01pm EDT | roidubouloi Whoa, Jaime, whoa! I hate to interrupt you when you are on a roll, and doing so well I might add, but the $80 billion figure I quoted is the US intelligence budget. It has nothing to do with Israel. I was comparing the size of the US intelligence budget, literally this time, to the size of Israel's GDP and noting that, for better or worse given the magnitude of this expenditure. the US is going to rely on its own intelligence assessments. It will certainly listen with great interest to anything Israel has to say, particularly as to facts, but is not going to rely on Israeli judgments even if those were not responsive to Israeli interests that are not identical to US interests. ___________ ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 4:02pm EDT | yerubal When I first glanced over this article, dated today, it was deja vu, but I was mixing it up with the article a few days ago, http://www.tnr.com/article/world/101304/obama-israel-iran-usa-preemptive... . 03/07/2012 - 4:07pm EDT | JAIMECHUCH Let me ask you a personal question soon to be domesticated old irritant. Do you play the role of Amman in Purim? I am sure yo enjoy it. Surely our articulate blogger does enjoy it. 80 billion USA-Israel handout , my foot, even that I have been recovering from burst inflammation on my left foot. Keep it coming . Galicianers are known to be dishonest. And you re-afirm the rule. Although my late Galicianer father in law was not dishonest . 03/07/2012 - 4:09pm EDT | roidubouloi I would also like to take this opportunity, because it amuses me to do so, to note that the GDP of the City of New York, comparable in population to Israel, is six times that of Israel and about 10% of the entire United States and is larger than that of the State of Texas. The GDP of Tel Aviv appears to be 50% of that of Israel. How about that? For some reason I cannot fathom, the GDP of Tokyo appears to be slightly larger than that of New York. Must be a statistical error. The internet and google are grand things, surely. 03/07/2012 - 4:14pm EDT | roidubouloi I am struck dumb, Jaime. What does the size of the US intelligence budget have to to with "USA-Israel handout?" Yes, it is true that all we Galicianers, except your late father-in-law of course, are liars. But I looked the numbers up. You can look them up too if you don't believe me. I am completely mystified at your dyspepsia over this. 03/07/2012 - 4:16pm EDT | ironyroad Don't be ridiculous, Jaime. Friedman is not anti-Israel and if you think so, you then have the job of explaining why it's bad for Israel to have the Iranian nuclear program an American and even a global security/proliferation issue. Indeed, there has been much commentary elsewhere about how Israeli governments have always wanted to make this whole affair "Iranian threat toward everyone" and not "Iranian threat toward Israel," with the promise of a broader resistance to Teheran. But when Obama does exactly that -- making it clear to Iran that the stakes are a lot higher than they might like to believe -- he gets pilloried. Curious. 03/07/2012 - 4:20pm EDT | Tgossard Reluctantly and with great regret, in the main I support what roi and blackton have said. I am a passionate supporter of Israel and always have been, and though noga has respectfully and I think sympathetically discounted my declaration to make every effort to go to Israel myself to help it defend itself—unrealistic as it probably is to suppose I would succeed, I mean it with all my heart, as does my partner who is in total agreement with me and similarly a passionate defender of Israel. I don't want Israel to be destroyed or forced to cede some or any of its sovereignty. I believe it would be disastrous, even calamitous, for the World should Israel, G-d forbid, cease to exist. I don't bel ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 4:21pm EDT | JAIMECHUCH History of Israel intelligence. Menachem Begin was given an intercepted dispatch saying that there was a plot to assassinate Sadat of Egypt. Begin told him why do you give it to me send it to Sadat. This was just after the Yom Kippur war triumph of sorts of Egypt vs Israel. The news riched Sadat and he was spared assassination, at least then. Good news good feelings. Then Sadat said I will visit Jerusalem if you Begin invite me. Begin invited Sadat, and he came to Jerusalem. Everything else is commentary. At least one of the successes of Israel intelligence. You wouldn't hear it from our articulate fellow blogger. 03/07/2012 - 4:27pm EDT | noga1 "Oh yes, I'd also like to point out something that keeps getting missed here: the process by which Obama is reframing the Iranian threat from something that hangs over Israel into something that hangs over the region and, ultimately, U.S. national security interests at the highest level" Yes, that is a good reframing of the Iranian threat and one that Israel has insisted upon for many many years now. Obama, until a while ago, chose to create a non-existent linkage between the Iran threat and the building of a few apartments in Jerusalem. Maybe he HAS learned something but what I'm hoping is that it not too late now. If he really means it, if he really meant what he said to AIPAC, then it is ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 4:32pm EDT | JAIMECHUCH Sorry my friendly grammar corrector. Thomas Friedman is going to come and kiss you, and I wouldn't blame him. 03/07/2012 - 4:42pm EDT | yerubal Many thanks to TNR and the editors who got this timely followup to the earlier Halevy article to happen. This is indeed a restrained but serious, subtle and fair critical piece that should serve as a reminder to open-minded readers of the salient elements of the problem. I too voted for Gore and Kerry, and then Obama (with fingers crossed). And I, too, like Halevy, have now seen this tragedy unfold to this point. If I were describing the situation in a nutshell, I would have nothing to add or subtract from what Halevy has exposited here. 03/07/2012 - 4:55pm EDT | JAIMECHUCH Our articulate fellow blogger. Frustrated diplomat is terrific, he brings the best on me. I keep catching him on anti Israel lies. First he had the canard of USA Israel 3billion aid to Israel as a waste, in spite that Israel with 240 billion GDP, spends over 16 billion in military purchases exclusively with American companies. Then he states that USA intelligence agencies budget is larger than Israel's GDP, ost du shein geert, 240 billion!!!. Then he phrases, as only a diplomat can, a dishonest one, that USA 80 billion expenditure is wasted. Then he explains that is the USA intelligence budget. Well at least you are a distorter. At any rate Israel should attack Iran if and if only Saudi Arab ... view full comment 03/07/2012 - 5:11pm EDT | roidubouloi If the rhetoric of Obama's speech is satisfactory to noga, even while she distrusts his intentions, then it was a very successful speech. We can likely expect this shortly to become a non-issue through the election, and Obama will not be under untoward pressure to do damage to US interests for domestic political purposes. Goodbye, AIPAC. Have a pleasant trip home. 1 2 3 4 5 6 next › last » Post new comment Your name: JAIMECHUCH Comment: *   Input format  

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 2:19pm

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Ha ha ha ha no military occupation in those disputed territories. How dumb can you be roi..dent, hemor...roid. That have military all up their ears . No surprises here that you are a failed mediocre, shame on you shame shame.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 2:26pm

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Jaime, in the comment you cite I said as follows: "Don't be ridiculous, Jaime. Friedman is not anti-Israel and if you think so, you then have the job of explaining why it's bad for Israel to have the Iranian nuclear program an American and even a global security/proliferation issue." I fail to see any reference by me to self-hating or any similar designated activity ascribed to Jews. I don't say stuff like that, for fairly obvious reasons, as noted earlier. Noga: Yes, ok. As you see from my previous comment, I think one can read it that way too. I would just like the discussion to take into account that there is testimony from historical witnesses as well as respectable historical analysis that serious worries existed about the capabilities of the air defense system (both fighters and radar) in 1938. If someone argues that Chamberlain should have drawn the line in the sand anyway, that's fair enough -- but that should be in the knowledge that nobody can say for sure how Hitler would have reacted or how a Battle of Britain in late 1938 would have concluded.

- ironyroad

April 9, 2012 at 2:55pm

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Oh sorry -- malahat. That was your comment I was replying to, not Noga's. Roid -- I didn't see yours either (!) But my last para above is probably my response there too. It may well be that Chamberlain was under a complete delusion, as you say, but my argument is simply that the empirical reality was that, if the attack was to come, 1940 was better than 1938.

- ironyroad

April 9, 2012 at 2:59pm

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Hmmmmm. Well let's leave Chamberlain aside for the moment. I think Jaime's right about the Palestinian leadership, there was an opportunity in Gaza just for one example, after the Israeli withdrawal, to make a modern, prosperous and free city-state, but ploughs were beaten into rockets almost immediately. It's pretty difficult to ignore that. Also with regard to the illegality and outlaw status of Israel why isn't this also true of the Arabs who refuse to recognize Israel and continue asserting that it must be demographically compromised to say the least? This is effectively continuing an active state of war is it not?

- Sophia

April 9, 2012 at 4:02pm

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So, if you see war as immoral and illegal, and I sure do, then, Israel is really not the only party and has actually been a serial victim, is this not true? I say this despite also asserting, as I have, that on some occasions Israeli military response has been, in my opinion, far too aggressive. Anyway I don't think there should be a double standard. The Arabs and other parts of the Muslim and Christian worlds have been effectively at war with Israel since 1948. That's impossible to ignore and you can't see Israeli actions as wrong unless you take that into account and also recognize the severe threat to Israeli lives. Continuing to hold some control over West Bank and Gaza are not simply an attempt to flaunt international authority! PS in regard to which, omg. The people casting the biggest stones are living in very warlike countries, it seems to me.

- Sophia

April 9, 2012 at 4:06pm

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OK, let me take one minute to get Chamberlain off my chest. There was a lot wrong there, in Britain, in France, the Nazis were in plain sight and so was their philosophy. Alas, there was a lot of commerce with Nazi Germany and also, more than a little sympathy for the devil. The Jews were doomed. WWII was the culmination of so many centuries of hatred and bigotry. After all who would love a people that supposedly mixes Christian blood in their matzohs? Who killed god? Also, we were pinned for inventing democracy, Communism, starting wars, inventing capitalism also, and just for being different too. Don't forget everybody read the Protocols, Henry Ford wrote his own version and put it in every car off the line. I read something in regard to "The King's Speech" which won an Oscar, in which certain facts may have been fudged. One thing is for sure, Palestine was blockaded, the St Louis was turned away, The Canadians said one Jew was too many; there was a big Nazi movement in the US, fortunately stopped by the FBI - but - I don't think they ever really went away. And I also don't think that more guns is the answer. That's like these paranoid white guys, Zimmerman, and stupid "hold your ground laws" which get people dead. We need answers besides more damn guns and this is true on the international level as well. I guess people have been struggling with our lack of a moral compass and loving kindness since at least the days of Moses and probably long before that.

- Sophia

April 9, 2012 at 4:14pm

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irony of ironies. Gimmi a break. Thomas Friedman posts article after article demonizing Israel, over and over again. If his statement of AIPAC paying all of the USA Congress to give Netanyahu 20 standing ovations is not anti Jewish, I don't know what else is. Please irony of ironies do not insult my intelligence. Make a practice of reading TF columns always full of demonization of Israel and twisted lies at it. Reading TF you would get the impression that the Islamic enemies Israel don't even exist. Even roidicle stated the discussion should not include Iranian bellicosity and terrorism a la Chamberlain. And doesn't bother you the result of WWII, The enormity of human sacrifice, Holocaust six million Jews massacred with one million children, and up to 70 million dead. What kind of person are you.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 4:40pm

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Well roidikle, about no military in disputed places. Cuba can take over Guantanamo. Argentina can take over the Falklands/Malvinas. Pakistan can take over Kashmir. China can take over Taiwan. Spain can take over Gibraltar. Mexico and Guatemala can take over Belize. Eh? There are no military. There is roidikle insulting the intelligence of everybody. You are loosing credibility .

- JAIMECHUCH

April 9, 2012 at 4:49pm

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"And doesn't bother you the result of WWII" That's right, Jaime. As everyone around here knows, I'm the guy who doesn't care what the result of WW2 was. You are some piece of work.

- ironyroad

April 9, 2012 at 4:55pm

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezvz6CNQr94 "And now, once again, Grass is inventing a delusional reality, but this time he is projecting into the future. Israel could launch a preemptive strike and wipe out the Iranian people, he writes, and therefore Israel should be viewed as a threat to fragile world peace. Just as Grass imagined a past that never was out of a need to exonerate himself, the same need is compelling him to imagine a future that will never be. Israel has never threatened Iran's existence, whereas Iran's leaders are constantly vowing to wipe Israel off the map. But Grass' subconscious needs Israel to wipe out the Iranian people, because the day that Israel exterminates 80 million people will be the day that Grass will finally be acquitted in the court of history: Hitler and the Third Reich, whose uniform Grass donned, only killed 50 million people – and Israel is about to exterminate 80 million people. What a monstrous secret wish has emerged from the depths of this great writer's psyche! What hellfire burns there, deep inside the soul of the former SS man. Demons erupt from the depths of the soul "with what ink remains," as he writes. The problem is not Gunter Grass. The problem is the 50 percent of the Süddeutsche Zeitung readership that agrees with him, according to an Internet poll taken by the German newspaper. Does the entire Christian world have a psychological need for Israel to commit a worse crime than the ones committed by the Nazis? Is this the secret wish of all those who question Israel's right to exist? Do they hope that Israel will, once and for all, justify the general yearning to destroy it by giving the world the gift of a massive crime against humanity? Is their disease so malignant and incurable? " ___________ Yehoshua Sobol (יהושע סובול) (born in Tel Mond in 1939), is an Israeli playwright, writer, and director at theatres in Israel and abroad.

- noga1

April 9, 2012 at 5:18pm

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Sophia, Under international law, Israel has every right to control the occupied territory for purposes of security, and to insist on adequate substitute security arrangements as a condition for withdrawal. That has zero to do with its illegal colonization. Indeed, even population transfer into occupied territory is permitted under the Fourth Geneva Convention if there is a bona fide security reason. There is no security justification for the settlements. They are in fact a security liability. _______________________ I have no time or patience to explain international law, treaty obligations, the difference between occupied territory and incorporated territory, to a wacked-out moron. Not even going to try. Those here who evidently remain confused about these matters will have to resolve their confusion on their own, or not. Who cares?

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 5:22pm

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Netanyahu is busy threatening the west that Israel will wreak havoc if someone else doesn't stop Iran's nuclear program on Israel's timetable. That will be plenty of "gift to the world" if it comes to pass. 50% of the SZ readership agrees with Grass? What a surprise. Of course, no one would ever possibly imagine that, if Israel makes these threats, justified by explicit reference to the crimes of the Holocaust by a government that itself blatantly ignores international law, that no one is going to feel threatened by this. Whoduh thought? And when people feel threatened, they do not always correctly perceive the intentions of the source of the threat. You would think the clod Netanyahu would have thought about that before proceeding further to isolate Israel just when it most needs to be in the fold of the western community. Nope. Not the ultra-nationalist wack-jobs, Likud and the rest of the messianic right wingnuts in Israel. They all suffer from the same delusions of power that they don't have believing that their own self-righteousness will suffice to allow them to prevail. How does Israel suffer this moron?

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 5:34pm

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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4214341,00.html "Israel ranked 14th in the United Nations’ first World Happiness Report. The list is headed by Denmark, Finland, Norway and the Netherlands, the paradises of political correctness, welfare, anti-war, ultra-liberal and anti-nationalistic feelings, beacons which, according to the Global Peace Index, topped the list of the most “peaceful” places in the world. So how can we explain the happiness of Israel, the only civilized country under mortal danger, the only nation without recognized borders and globally selected to be an emblem of evil?"

- noga1

April 9, 2012 at 5:55pm

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Ireland's at number 10, so -- given the weather -- go figure!

- ironyroad

April 9, 2012 at 6:47pm

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http://soundcloud.com/kick-around-sounds/juan-calle-havah-nagilah

- noga1

April 9, 2012 at 6:52pm

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Ah. You have a point.

- ironyroad

April 9, 2012 at 6:58pm

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I gather that being under mortal danger, without recognized borders, and the object of global opprobrium makes Israelis happy. Maybe so. That might explain why peace is so hard to achieve.

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 8:44pm

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Reeplau should remind people here of Roid “Sweden’s ‘Damn Jew’ Problem” http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/96146/swedens-damn-jew-problem/ “Wearing a yarmulke is no longer safe in the city of Malmö. The mayor blames the Jews, while other Swedish politicians point to ‘social inequality.’” “The store window had been smashed many times before. The shoe-repair shop is located in one of the rougher parts of Malmö, Sweden, and the Jewish owner, a native of the city, had gotten used to this sort of vandalism. But in the spring of 2004, a group of immigrants just under the age of 15—too young to be prosecuted by Swedish law—walked into the store yelling about “damn Jews.” The owner was hit in the face by one of the boys. Yasha, an 85-year-old customer and relative of mine, was struck in the back of his head. The doctor who received him at the emergency room concluded that he must have been hit with a blunt object. “I left Poland to get away from anti-Semitism,” he later told the police. “But at least there I never experienced any violence. That only happened to me here, in Sweden.”” “But Malmö’s mayor of 17 years, Ilmar Reepalu, has “Tourettes syndrome with respect to Jews,” according to Kvällsposten, a Swedish newspaper. Last week, Reepalu, a Social Democrat, made headlines across the country after I published an interview with him in which he said that Sweden Democrats, an anti-immigrant party with its roots in the Swedish neo-Nazi movement, had “infiltrated” Malmö’s Jewish community in order to turn it against Muslims. On Monday, he was publicly reprimanded by the head of his party.” “Reeplau has promised that he is no anti-Semite, but this is far from the first time that he has put his foot in his mouth on the subject of Jews. When a journalist from the Malmö daily Skånska Dagbladet asked him in January 2010 about growing anti-Semitism in his city, he replied, “We accept neither anti-Semitism nor Zionism in Malmö.” His reaction to the fact that Jews are leaving his city because of anti-Semitism was to maintain that “there have been no attacks against Jews, and if Jews want to leave for Israel that is not a concern for Malmö.” In an interview with Danish television in March 2010, he described criticism about his statements regarding Jews and Zionism as an attack orchestrated by “the Israeli lobby.”” Yes, like Grass and Roid Jews and Zionists are to blame for attacks and murder of Jews.

- nr106646

April 9, 2012 at 9:26pm

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roidubouloi "I gather that being under mortal danger, without recognized borders, and the object of global opprobrium makes Israelis happy. " This is what roi concluces from: "So how can we explain the happiness of Israel, the only civilized country under mortal danger, the only nation without recognized borders and globally selected to be an emblem of evil?" Isn't it clear that roi did not open the link to find out why Israelis are happy, DESPITE all of the above? Isn't it clear that roi perverted the meaning of the question so that he can slander Israeli society? What do you call a person who does that? Here is a suggestion: A liar, a slanderer and an inciter of mobs. But what else to expect from someone who defends Gunter Grass by quoting an anti-Zionist who wouldn't lift a finger to defend a settler, propped by an antisemite who calls Israelis "The new Nazis"? Let me tell you something, roi. Unless your Israeli relatives absolutely share Gideon Levi's anti-Zionist agenda, they, too, are included in Alan Hart's "New Nazis".

- noga1

April 9, 2012 at 10:36pm

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It was your moronic point, noga. I was merely pointing out how thoroughly stupid. As for lies and slanders, they all belong to you. I have not defended Günter Grass, but that won't stop you from repeating that lie ad infinitum. Lying, slandering, and smearing are your entire oeuvre here. While you like to accuse me of lies, the last time you had the nerve even to attempt to take issue with any factual claim of mine was now years ago. Because you can't. You, on the other hand, can be found lying about someone in virtually every thread where you appear, as here where you invent the fiction that I am defending Grass. Not only that, you are never able to respond to a substantive point made either here or by any other source quoted here. Your response to everything is invariably another attempt at character assassination. You really are an abomination. Keep up your pissing and moaning about all the anti-Semites in the world. The likes of you are sealing Israel's fate by propelling it down the same dark road while attributing its problem exclusively to the enmity of the world. Not that you will be there to share in Israel's fate. By your own account, you are hiding out in Canada because you are afraid to share the fate of your country, the one you are selling down the river with your execrable behavior in its name and your unwillingness to do more for your country than whine. There is no need to slander Israel. The reality of its behavior is fully bad enough. No lies necessary. It is the truth that you cannot stand and do your utmost to drown out with shrieking.

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 11:32pm

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Says NR, "Yes, like Grass and Roid Jews and Zionists are to blame for attacks and murder of Jews." No, Israelis are to blame for their own actions, colonizing another people in flagrant violation of international law and immiserating them so as to provide for the security of Israel's illegal settlements. These actions make conflict inevitable, as no people has every willingly been colonized, and provoke enmity toward Israel and toward Jews who publicly identify themselves with Israel, are for the most part apologists for Israel, and hence are not separated from Israel in the public mind. That conduct by Israel does not make Israel responsible for criminal attacks on Jews any more than the wrongful conduct of Arabs towards Israel make the Arabs responsible for the unlawful behavior of Israel, as Israel and its defenders like to claim all the time. Or do you think, NR, that Israel's violations of international law and subjugation of millions are justified vengeance? In which case, if you so believe, why would Israel and Zionists not likewise be responsible for attacks on Jews as justified vengeance?

- roidubouloi

April 9, 2012 at 11:43pm

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And while we are pondering events in Malmo, Sweden, where two Jewish man were hit on the head in 2004, we can ponder this: Background on violence by settlers Published: 1 Jan 2011 Image from video footage. Photo: Muna a-Nawaj’ah, a volunteer in B’Tselem’s camera project. Israeli civilians have committed various forms of violence against Palestinians in the Occupied Territories, including killing. From the beginning of the second intifada, in September 2000, to the end of June 2011, Israeli civilians killed 50 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. From December 1987, when the first intifada erupted, until the outbreak of the second intifada, Israeli civilians killed 115 Palestinians. In some of the cases, Israelis fired at Palestinians when their lives were under threat, including when armed Palestinians attempted to enter settlements. In many cases, however, the shooting was not out of self-defense. For example, in some cases, Israeli civilians chased Palestinians who had thrown stones, and killed them by shooting directly at their bodies. Such acts are absolutely illegal under criminal law and breach the open fire regulations that apply to civilians. In recent years, settlers have carried out violent acts under the slogan “price tag.” These are acts of random violence aimed at the Palestinian population and Israeli security forces. They generally follow actions by Israeli authorities that are perceived as harming the settlement enterprise, or follow Palestinian violence against settlers. B'Tselem has documented many such acts, which have included blocking roads, throwing stones at cars and houses, making incursions into Palestinian villages and land, torching fields, uprooting trees, and other damage to property. The term "price tag", coined by settlers, was explained in media interviews. For example, on 24 July '08, after Israeli security forces removed a bus that had been placed in the Adey Ad outpost, the head of the settlers' struggle headquarters in Yitzhar was quoted in Ha'aretz as saying, "the police have to understand that there will be a very high price tag on any event of this kind". He described the harm to Palestinians as "a display of good citizenship that is intended to help the police enforce the planning and building laws in the area on Palestinians, too". On 15 Nov. '08, after the Federman Farm outpost was evacuated, Eliezer Melamed, the rabbi of the Har Bracha settlement, was quoted in NRG as saying, "the price tag policy appears to be very effective and the security establishment is doing everything to break it". http://www.btselem.org/settler_violence And this: Dual system of law Published: 1 Jan 2011 Although settlers in the Occupied Territories live in an area that is subject to military rule, and despite the fact that the settlements have not been formally annexed, Israel has applied a substantial part of Israeli law to the settlers. As a result, Israeli civilians living in the Occupied Territories are not subject to military or local law, as are the Palestinians, but are prosecuted according to the Israeli penal law. The Emergency Regulations (Offenses in the Occupied Territories – Jurisdiction and Legal Assistance), 5727-1967, enacted by the Minister of Defense in July 1967, provided that Israeli civilians who have committed offenses in the Occupied Territories can be tried also in Israeli civil courts. This created extra-territorial personal status for Israeli civilians in the Occupied Territories. Since then, the Knesset has regularly extended these regulations. Being subject to the Israeli judicial system, settlers enjoy liberties and legal guarantees that are denied Palestinian defendants in the Occupied Territories charged with the same offense. The authority to arrest an individual, the maximum period of detention before being brought before a judge, the right to meet with an attorney, the protections available to defendants at trial, the maximum punishment allowed by law, and the release of prisoners before completion of their sentence – all of these differ greatly in the two systems of law, with the Israeli system providing the suspect and defendant with many more protections. Thus, different legal systems are applied to two populations residing in the same area, and the nationality of the individual determines the system and court in which he or she is tried. This situation violates the principle of equality before the law, especially given the disparity between the two systems. It also violates the principle of territoriality, conventional in modern legal approaches, according to which a single system of law must apply to all persons living in the same territory. http://www.btselem.org/settler_violence/dual_legal_system The word for this dual system of law that B'Tselem dares not utter is "apartheid."

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 12:04am

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So to roid hitting Jews on the head and forcing them to leave a city is no big deal. Did he help Arab students intimidate Jews in a Florida University? "Jewish Students Get Fake Eviction Notices" By JTA Read more: http://www.forward.com/articles/154522/jewish-students-get-fake-eviction-notices/#ixzz1rbjIRDnI Roid is an antisemitic fascist who hides behind the law.

- nr106646

April 10, 2012 at 12:14am

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Apartheid is what you have in every Arab country. Apartheid is what Arabs are reintroducing into the West when they target Jews or atheists who make fun of Muhammad. Roid is just too stupid and too bigoted to see it.

- nr106646

April 10, 2012 at 12:17am

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Noga's description of Gideon Levy as sheretz is very apt. For those who are not familiar here is a translation of an article by Ben Dror Yemini from Maariv courtesy of Salomonia: " Baron of Falsehood Industry". http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2010/11/ben-dror-yemini-baron-of-the-falsehood-i/index.shtml And Sophia, "the Israelis go off half-cocked militarily and crush bugs with bombers"? Say what? Those "bugs" shoot anti tank rockets at school buses. For your information, the Israelis do exactly what Americans do, attack active terrorists with drones with one great exception. We rarely kill in the process three or four dozens innocent civilians in order to kill two terrorist. That is the only difference I am aware of. I followed the comments here for a while and I know I should never be surprised by anything roid would write, still, his defence of Gunther Grass and Gideon Levy surprised me.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 10, 2012 at 12:22am

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"Gunter Grass' delusions" "In his subconscious, the author needs Israel to wipe out the Iranian people, because the day Israel exterminates 80 million people will be the day that Grass – in his own delusional mind – will finally be acquitted in the court of history." Yehoshua Sobol http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=3891

- nr106646

April 10, 2012 at 12:23am

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"Why is Israel so happy?" "Op-ed: What's Israel's secret, which allowed Jewish state to rank 14th on global Happiness Report?" "Israelis, which have one of the longest life expectancies of any nation in the world, are happy because their country has a history of scintillating enlightenment, with the highest production of scientific publications per capita in the world, more museums per capita and the highest worldwide publication of new books. In a war-ravaged country like Israel, the past few years saw five Israeli Nobel Prize winners. Another reason is economic success. No other industrialized country does it better, especially for a nation that doesn’t have natural resources and has a population roughly half of Belgium’s. Israel’s high-tech industry is flourishing, making the country known as “start-up nation.”... http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4214341,00.html I also think that Israelis are happy that the fascist Roid doesn't live there.

- nr106646

April 10, 2012 at 12:27am

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Examples of Arab apartheid: "Blanford repeats another assertion that has become set in stone: the Beirut synagogue was bombed by the Israelis themselves: “Much of the structural damage was inflicted, ironically, by shelling from Israeli gunboats in 1982.” This rumor was started by none other than the Middle East “expert” Robert Fisk, whose reputation for truth-telling has taken a few knocks recently. The CSM report is typical of a trend in Middle Eastern reporting hailing the restoration of Jewish buildings in countries with no more than a handful of Jews as somehow indicative of pluralism and tolerance in the Arab world. Even Jews fall for the fantasy, grateful for the slightest acknowledgement that members of the Tribe once lived there. “Look, we even have Jews here!” a restored Jewish site proclaims. Or, as one journalist put it, “Tolerance of Jewish cultural remains can be exchanged for Western goodwill and aid without necessitating any messy engagement with actual Israelis.”..." http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/why-it-pays-to-restore-synagogues-in-the-arab-world-2/

- nr106646

April 10, 2012 at 12:30am

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"I also think that Israelis are happy that the fascist Roid doesn't live there." I know I am.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 10, 2012 at 12:33am

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Fine, NR, let's all stipulate to hideous apartheid in Arab countries. I don't approve of anything that goes on in Arab countries. Does this in your mind justify Israeli apartheid in the West Bank? Why, I believe it does. That kind of makes you a racist and a fascist, doesn't it? And here comes makover, noga's pet boy, recycling her lies and nr's (the one who calls himself a number) smears. Can't you even think up something original, makover? Well, the question answers itself. We know from long experience that you are not very bright. All Americans can be glad to know that you aren't here, and it would be nice if you don't visit, ever. You have nothing that we need or want. Indeed, we have enough of our own ultra-nationalist crackpot morons with no need to import any more. However, it seems that for all the happiness in Israel, the ynet joy, the scintillation, some large part of the Israeli population has emigrated to the United States, perhaps while you weren't looking. "Israeli population in U.S. surges, but exact figures hard to determine By Sue Fishkoff · December 22, 2010 SAN FRANCISCO (JTA) -- The number of Israelis living in the United States grew by about 30 percent over the past decade, according to newly released U.S. Census Bureau figures. Some 140,323 people living in the United States today were born in Israel, up from 109,720 in 2000. Of the Israelis living here, 90,179 have U.S. citizenship and 50,144 do not. But Israeli expatriates and Israeli government sources say the true figure is actually much higher. The Israeli Consulate in New York estimates there are 600,000 Israelis living in the United States." http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/12/22/2742296/israeli-population-jumps-in-the-us-but-is-still-hard-to-count 600,000 Israelis in the US (assuming that almost all of them are Jewish Israelis) would be 10% of Israel's Jewish population. I am sure they were all very sad to leave and miss out on all the fun. Then of course, there are those like noga who says she lives in Canada because she is afraid to live in Israel. Quite the traveling bunch you Israelis. Shall we consider ourselves blessed to have you? Meanwhile, Israel is still sending shaliachim here to persuade Americans to emigrate to Israel and experience the happiness. Personally, I wish my sister would come home after 35 years trying to build the unbuildable in a moral ruin. For a thoughtful and morally upright person as she is being surrounded by such turds as makover must at least be a major dent in the joy. In fact, a year or so ago her desparing comment to me at one visit was "This country is fucked." And she wasn't talking about by the Arabs. She was talking about the rightwing pestilence, the makovers, who run the place. But then she would have to leave her children and grandchildren in Israel, so she won't. I wouldn't dare ask, but I am pretty sure that if she had her life to live over again, she would not have made aliyah.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 1:18am

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And while we are pondering the exodus of Swedish Jews called to our attention by NR, in the standard tactic of Israel's defenders who try to divert attention to bad deeds elsewhere as if this somehow excuses Israel: From The Times of Israel "The Foreign Ministry on Thursday rejected the findings of a European Union report about settler violence, calling it “Palestinian propaganda.” The report claims that Israel is not doing enough to stop the large increase in attacks on Palestinians by Jewish extremists. The Foreign Ministry contended that the report is based solely on Palestinian sources and that its compilers didn’t seek an Israeli response. The report by the 22 heads of mission of EU countries’ ambassadors in Ramallah said there were 411 assaults in 2011, compared to 266 in 2010 and 132 in 2009, according to euobserver.com, which saw the report. The Netherlands was the lone country that refused to endorse the report. http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-not-halting-settler-violence-eu-report-says/ Ah yes, the work of all those anti-Semitic European governments. The vast anti-Semitic conspiracy that fails to understand the harmony in the West Bank, a part of the general happiness of Israel. Nothing here that makover wouldn't defend. And I am not surprised at all.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 2:03am

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Crimes against US or European Jews don't matter because it's the fault of settler's on the West Bank. Next time Jewish children are murdered by Muslim fanatics these murderers should be given American citizenship and treated like heroes because it's all the fault of those damn children who had the temerity to be born Jewish. The fascist Roid has got it right. Let Iran build a A bomb and wipe those Israelis off the map because they are just a bunch of settlers who have no business living anywhere on earth. Any Jew is guilty, guilty, guilty....

- nr106646

April 10, 2012 at 3:32am

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Jews had it coming all along: the holocaust was their fault for colonizing Europe and the Middle East. “Israel-Iran History, Holocaust Perverted in Grass’s Poem” By Jeffrey Goldberg “Guenter Grass, the German writer and recipient of the Nobel Prize in Literature, brought forth last week an odious little poem that focuses on the threat to world peace posed by the Jewish state, and congratulates its author for the courage to point out this truth. The poem, published in the German newspaper Sueddeutsche Zeitung and elsewhere, was titled “What Must Be Said,” which is quite a vainglorious title. There is very little in the world that is safer (or less novel) than criticizing Israel in a European newspaper. In this poem, Grass suggests that Germans haven’t been saying “what must be said” about the various sins of the Jews. Of course, many post-Nazi German intellectuals, and intellectuals across Europe, have been saying quite nasty things about Jews and the Jewish state for some time, without noticeable consequence. (No fatwas have been issued against European critics of Jews, and no opponent of Israel has been murdered for his criticism.) The German historian Ernst Nolte argued in a 2004 speech that “the only difference between Israel and the Third Reich is Auschwitz,” a statement exceeded in intemperance by Grass’s fellow Nobel Prize recipient, the late Portuguese novelist Jose Saramago, who once compared Ramallah, the de facto capital of the Palestinian West Bank, to Auschwitz, and who accused Jews of worshipping a “spiteful” god. Waffen SS Grass, in his writing, shows himself to be a man tired of hearing about the Holocaust, tired of thinking about the Holocaust, tired of carrying around the moral burden of the Holocaust. This is in some ways an understandable feeling for young Germans, at least, to hold. They didn’t commit the deeds, and would like the world to judge them for their actions, not those of their parents and grandparents. Grass, however, is a former member of the Waffen SS, and being a former member of the Waffen SS means having to say you’re sorry. Unfortunately, all the harshness directed against Grass after he revealed this fact in 2006 -- six decades afterward -- seems to have made him angry at the SS’s victims. Thus, our poem. “What Must Be Said” is interesting for what it says about the mind of Guenter Grass, but it is more interesting for what it says about the manner in which some intellectuals think about Israel and Iran. By extracting the self-pity, self-aggrandizement and guilt-expiation from “What Must Be Said” and leaving only the politics, Grass’s thinking is clear. The short version of his message: Israel may one day soon commit nuclear genocide against the people of Iran. “It is the alleged right to the first strike / That could annihilate the Iranian people/ Subjugated by a loud-mouth / And guided to organized jubilation / Because in their sphere of power / It is suspected, a nuclear bomb is being built.” Perhaps it reads better in the German, or perhaps Grass is simply T.S. Eliot’s inferior in anti-Semitic poetry, but put aside the poem’s aesthetic shortcomings and consider the idea advanced in the first two lines: That Israel, which in reality is contemplating targeting six to eight nuclear sites in Iran for conventional aerial bombardment, in fact wants to annihilate the Iranian people in a “first strike.” This is, of course, delusional. Not even the Iranian regime seems to believe this. To make yourself believe that Israel is seeking to murder the 74 million people of Iran, you must make yourself believe that the leaders of the Jewish state outstrip Adolf Hitler in genocidal intent.” http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-09/israel-iran-history-holocaust-perverted-in-grass-s-poem.html

- nr106646

April 10, 2012 at 3:51am

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"I also think that Israelis are happy that the fascist Roid doesn't live there." Roi is more of a Stalinist (a "red fascist"), but it comes down to the same thing.

- noga1

April 10, 2012 at 7:09am

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The idiotic and personal attacks by roid don't even qualify a response.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 10, 2012 at 7:12am

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What a bunch of fucking morons and moral ciphers the lot of you are. You engage in nothing but personal attacks and smears of one sort or another, including the favorite tactic of all of you, inventing lies to place in the mouths of others. Then you actually complain about personal attacks. And, in your childish, self-absorbed, grandiose, twisted imaginations, you imagine this as a defense of Israel (on behalf of which you are unable to say not a single word). Please, tell me there are no more like the three of you there or here. The burden of having to live with such human crap as the three of you as its public face is more than any nation should have to bear. Don't even think about responding makover (I don't qualify) when I say that you are not the most vicious piece of garbage to show up here (that would be noga, the gorgon), nor the stupidest (although you are in contention). Nor are you the craziest, nr (whatever your number is); that would be a certain Spanish chap. But a bigger collection of assholes than you three, each of whom manages to combine extraordinary degrees of stupidity, viciousness, dishonesty, and sheer lunacy in a single package, cannot be found on the planet. "Assholes for Israel." You can start an NGO.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 8:05am

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"What a bunch of fucking morons and moral ciphers the lot of you are. You engage in nothing but personal attacks and smears of one sort or another, including the favorite tactic of all of you, inventing lies to place in the mouths of others. Then you actually complain about personal attacks." given that 95+ percent of what roid posts are personal attacks the above is quite an admission.

- nr106646

April 10, 2012 at 8:27am

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Roid loves it when Jews are attacked. This is what he lives for. Gives him an excuse to blame it on Jewish behavior. He would also have made a loyal Stalinist had he been alive then.

- nr106646

April 10, 2012 at 8:29am

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Here's a chillilng piece from a couple of years ago by the now Israeli ambassador to the United States. Rather unselfconsciously and clearly unintentionally, he gives a pretty scary account of just what Israel is doing to itself. He must be an anti-Semite. Worse, he publishes this damning condemnation of Israel in that anti-Semitic rag, Commentary. http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/seven-existential-threats/ Especially repugnant is Oren's explanation as to why the illegal settlements cannot be removed: It would require more IDF soldiers than exist to quell the violent Jewish response to any attempt to do so. Meanwhile, while Israel, an organized state with a well-organized army and police force, has neither the will nor ability to enforce its law against its own extremists, it demands that the Palestinians, who are far weaker, root out terrorists elements. Oren also unselfconsciously makes clear that the Arabs were right all along about Israeli perfidy. Successive Israeli governments claimed the settlements were not permanent as justification for them. The Arabs said that it was a lie, that Israel was stealing their land by trying to settle it irrevocably, all the while professing its desire for peace. The Arabs were right, and we have none other than Michael Oren to tell us so. Is Michael Oren too a sheretz? The rightwing fanatics who have dominated Israeli political life for a generation (and for whom Israelis blame not themselves but the Arabs) have dug for it a colossal moral and strategic hole, a veritable pit. Yet all the ultra-nationalists (such as the liars and crackpots who promiscuously display themselves here) can think to do now is keep digging. Now, like Samson, to bring down the temple on everyone's head, to wreak havoc on the world in exercise of a claimed right of preemptive self-defense that also violates international law. What does Netanyahu make his highest political priority in the face of all this? Why, building a few more apartments in Jerusalem for fanatics whom Oren says are destroying the place and provoking the US government. Can anyone think of any place on earth more firmly in the grip of mass self-delusion than Israel? This is exactly why my sister, who made aliyah 35 years ago, says of Israel today, "This country is fucked."

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 8:40am

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I don't make personal attacks, NR. I defend against the attacks of lying scum like you. And then, of course, you whimper and cry and whine like a baby that you are being attacked. Had you been there, you surely would have been a Nazi. You do a very good impression even now. You can certainly lie like one, all of the inversions of reality, the accusation that others are engaged in your own perverted behavior. God, please deliver us from you insane, rightwing extremists. The world cannot take it. We may not survive any of your stupidity, your corruption, your adoration of violence, or your endless enmities, but the combination is surely unbearable.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 8:50am

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roidubouloi "I don't make personal attacks, ..." You do nothing else when you can't win an argument.

- nr106646

April 10, 2012 at 10:21am

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You are a perverted liar. Read up here and see just who it is, you, noga, makover, who are always the ones employing personal attacks and smears in lieu of argument. I only respond in kind. It is the same on this thread as on every thread. What's more, I cannot lose an argument to you morons because you never make an argument. I make arguments. None of you does. If you are not smearing someone, you are trying to divert attention to some other issue, usually some Arab crime or some claimed anti-Semitism elsewhere. I don't deny Arab crimes, nor do I argue about them. I don't deny anti-Semitism, nor do I argue about it. Neither a perfect catalog of Arab crimes nor a perfect catalog of anti-Semites and their falsehoods and hatreds will serve either to justify bad behavior by anyone else, including Israel, nor to resolve Israel's strategic dilemma. The fascination with those who hate Israel is like gazing into a bottomless well to the point of falling in. It solves nothing and is an admission of moral and strategic paralysis. The moral and strategic imperative is for Israel to look to its own situation and the actions it can responsibly and ethically take -- with full regard to the constellation of forces in the world and the interests of other powers that they will more than likely pursue -- to strengthen both its moral stature and is strategic posture. All the rest, the pissing, the moaning about the Arabs, the anti-Semites, the endless search for the phrase, the word, the association that proves that this one is an anti-Semite or that one is an anti-Semite, the apartments in Jerusalem, the demand that Israel be recognized as a Jewish state, the dissembling about the settlement policy, is complete, utter, fucking nonsense. It is what only a moron (such as the Prime Minister of Israel) would attend to in the face of bona fide danger, about like picking your navel for lint while you are being hunted by assassins. If the issue is Israel's policy, as it is in Grass' poem, then that is what I discuss. You, like noga and makover, are incapable of speaking to the point and must immediately veer off into character assassination of someone or into long excursion about someone else's bad behavior, as if that is either justification or reason enough to ignore the subject criticism. My entire point upon entering here was that the question of whether Grass is or is not a Nazi or an anti-Semite is of no importance whatsoever. The issue is whether his criticism is valid or not. As to that, I disagree with some of his claims, certainly the hyperbolic one about genocidal intent, and agree with another of his claims -- that Israel is a threat to world peace -- but on different grounds than his. You and the rest of your dumbass friends have nothing to say and so you resort to lies, smears, and personal attacks. One cannot lose to that. One can only beat up the muggers or ignore them. I would rather beat you up. You deserve it and I am not a pacifist.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 10:55am

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China militarily occupies Tibet and has imported so many Han colonists that they outnumber the (reduced in number) indigenous Tibetans. They also control all government levers of power. NO discussion of this ever occurs in the Security Council. India militarily occupies Kashmir, and Hindus rule the majority Muslim population by force. The indigenous rebellion is crushed by massive force. I have no sympathy for that indigenous rebellion since its leaders are insane hyper-violent islamists. My point is merely that there is NO discussion of this, ever, in the Security Council. Sudan for 60 years occupied "South Sudan", engaged in a massive genocide against the non-Muslim population, and sought to convert them to Islam to force. Never a condemnation in the UN Human Rights Commission. 2 million dead. And 400,000 civilian dead in Darfur by the same regime. Ditto response from the UN. Those are facts in which to put the world-wide condemnation of the Israeli "illegal occupation" of the West Bank. I don't support the occupation, but I do condemn hypocrisy. Some people steal horses to great applause; others are hung for looking over the fence at the herd.

- ProfEthan

April 10, 2012 at 11:57am

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Prof, Neither Tibet nor Kashmir is occupied. Both are legally incorporated into the respective territory of China and India. Whether that incorporation is legitimate or not is a separate question, but is in the nature of a territorial dispute. In my opinion, neither territory is legitimately incorporated, but then there is the practical question of what is to be done about it. China sits on the Security Council. The Security Council is therefore no more going to do anything about that than it would about the illegal US invasion of Iraq without UNSC authorization. Life is unfair. Great Powers run the system and get away with things that small powers don't. The situation in Kashmir was not solved, but was settled by an agreement on a de facto border. Are you prepared to argue that the Moslem population is entitled to rebel? Why not then the Arab population of Israel if you do not want to be a hypocrite? The world system accepts that there will be minorities and that they are entitled to equal treatment under law and as a matter of social reality. Unless those are absent in the extreme, we do not recognize a general right of armed rebellion, and I don't think Israel wants to advocate for such in order to assure consistency in international affairs. South Sudan was to my knowledge part of Sudan. That there are huge human rights violations across the world, many ignored, is a reality. It is also the reality that they more often become the subject of attention because of a nexus of both strategic and human rights issues. Israel and Palestine are such a place. No complaint about hypocrisy is ever going to persuade any power to ignore a situation where both are engaged. And your argument is in the end an argument that all human rights violations should be ignored unless and until all are addressed. It is in the nature of every legal system that many crimes go unpunished. That has never yet been a successful argument for abandoning a regime of law. If one took your argument literally, then one would have said that the world should have ignored South African apartheid. It did not, and it does not ignore Palestine either. Nor will it so long as there is oil in the Middle East. The incorporation by Israel of parts of the Arab partition was also not taken up by the UNSC. Do you insist now that it be revisited to avoid hypocrisy? Israel expects to be a member of the western community, to enjoy its commerce and support. It cannot expect to do so if it does not observe western standards of human rights. Is that unfair? If it is, then it is, but accusing most of the world of anti-Semitism or hypocrisy will in the end do nothing for Israel's security and future. Perhaps if Israel grows to be as powerful as India or China, different rules will apply in practice. Hypocrisy is, for the most part, quite irrelevant in international affairs. If we are to abide only by universal standards consistently applied throughout the world, there are no standards.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 12:45pm

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As I have said before, if Israel were to incorporate the occupied territory and extend equal rights to all inhabitants, I don't think that would be a human rights violation, nor would the Fourth Geneva Convention any longer apply. For obvious reasons, Israel is not about to adopt this one-state solution. Further, it has been prohibited from doing so, at least without Arab consent, be a series of UNSC resolutions that forbid any unilateral Israeli boundary modifications. Again, while there are many situations ignored by the UNSC and the UN, this is not one of them, and if it had been ignored, there would be no Israel today. Israel cannot escape its own history and the fact that the mandate, including both present-day Israel and the Palestine coming into being, were part of a UN protectorate.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 12:51pm

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One last thought. If the countries in Europe were to tolerate anti-Semitism including violent attacks on Jews, would you accept that we should not criticize them and demand their adherence to western standards of human rights because things are worse in Pakistan, or Darfur, or Iran? Somehow I doubt it.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 1:01pm

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I thought so too.

- ironyroad

April 10, 2012 at 2:51pm

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Ditto.

- noga1

April 10, 2012 at 3:14pm

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Roid doesn't get it, this blog isn't about the West Bank which is his obsession. This blog is about Grass' antisemitic comments. Roid can't deal with antisemitism unless he blames Jews for having caused it. That is his problem.

- nr106646

April 10, 2012 at 3:14pm

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"Some people steal horses...": it's a Spanish proverb. Good one to know for understanding international relations. :) Roid seems to think that because in the case of Tibet the theft is complete, and in the case of Kashmir the theft is almost complete, that somehow this makes the situation on the West Bank a moral catastrophe, while the same is not true of Tibert or Kashmir. Tibet was an independent country between 1918 and 1951. That it was incorporated by force into China does not make the incorporation legal, nor does it lessen the impact of military occupation by Chinese troops or the vast colonization that has occurred, in which the Tibetans have become a minority in their own homeland. Those are facts. The Indian occupation of Kashmir is maintained only by the presence of 300,000 Indian troops. I know the former commander of a large part of them. In 1974, Turkey invaded northern Cyprus. 200,000 Greeks were either expelled or fled before the Turkish army. Their place in northern Cyprus was taken by Turkish colonists from mainland Turkey who had no previous connection to the island. In 2004, the UN offered its own solution to the Greek refugee problem: 1. ONLY the actual refugee generation, NOT their descendants, counted as refugees. 2. ONLY those refugees over 65 years of age could return to northern Cyprus. (3) Under NO circumstances could the Return constitute more than 5% of the total population in any one area of Northern Cyprus, or in Northern Cyprus taken as a whole. Yes--THAT is what the UN itself considered justice in the case of the Cypriot refugees and Turkey. No one makes a deep moral issue of it, or suggests that Turkey is itself deligitimized by of its colonialist and racist behavior. I myself am completely against the West Bank settlements. BUT, as Mahmoud Darwish was quoted above as having said, the Palestinians are lucky indeed that their enemies are Jews. Because Jews are ALWAYS an issue. That's a fact. Not like, um, Chinese, or Indians, or Turks or Sudanese.

- ProfEthan

April 10, 2012 at 4:20pm

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As it happened with the Arab aggressors , Germany and Japan lost the war. The difference is that they dedicated themselves to commerce and industry and were demilitarized. The conquerors have maintained their army's to today.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 10, 2012 at 4:21pm

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As it happened with the Arab aggressors , Germany and Japan lost the war. The difference is that they dedicated themselves to commerce and industry and were demilitarized. The conquerors have maintained their army's to today.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 10, 2012 at 4:21pm

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The story of Taiwan is the same. The nationalists under Chiang Kaishek invaded and subjugated the Taiwanese. Later communist China has been wanting to takeover Taiwan. But the indigenous Taiwanese have been wanting to be independent from either the nationalists or communists.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 10, 2012 at 4:30pm

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""Some people steal horses...": it's a Spanish proverb" Can you represent the proverb in its Spanish origin?

- noga1

April 10, 2012 at 4:31pm

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roid: "What's more, I cannot lose an argument to you morons" You just did.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 10, 2012 at 4:36pm

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"If the countries in Europe were to tolerate anti-Semitism including violent attacks on Jews, would you accept that we should not criticize them and demand their adherence to western standards of human rights because things are worse in Pakistan, or Darfur, or Iran? Somehow I doubt it." They do you asshole. No one talks about Darfur because they don't care either about attacks on Jews or about Darfur. Would Europeans have done anything about Darfur had not the US pushed into it? I doubt it. Besides what are Europeans values? antisemitism is not alien to Europe, neither is genocide. You are a moron, Roid.

- nr106646

April 10, 2012 at 5:26pm

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Even if I had lost the argument -- when I haven't even cleared my throat yet -- no reason why ProfEthan, who is clearly capable of advancing a rational argument and does, should be lumped in with the morons like you, makover. You are a moron. He is not. You cannot advance an argument. He can and does. _______________________ Now, where was I. Oh yes. Actually, it does make a difference whether territory is incorporated and the citizens are accorded the full rights of citizens, because there is a human right, recognized by the Fourth Geneva Convention, not to be colonized and not to be subjected to apartheid. There is no human right to live within particular borders. There is also the principle that borders may not be altered by force of arms. Armed force can only be used in self-defense or when authorized by the UNSC. Don't like the way the world is governed? Find yourself another planet. But for these utilitarian principles, there would be rather a large number of borders in the world, probably hundreds not dozens, now considered settled that would no longer be. This would include the portions of the Arab partition that Israel incorporated after 1948. Do you propose Israel be required to return to the original partition lines or can the Green Line be considered settled as an addition to the territory of Israel? How do you decide which separatist movements you consider legitimately entitled to use force? The Palestinians, no, the Kashmiris, yes, the Tibetans, yes. How about the Basques? The Turkish Cypriots don't consider themselves occupied, even though the Greek Cypriots consider part of Cyprus occupied. And it was Greece, after all, that deposed the President of Cyprus precipitating the invasion by Turkey that today we would consider a humanitarian intervention. Do you think Argentina can invade the Falklands, no problem, although everyone there considers himself British? IRA guerrilla war is okay with you or not? Does the Confederacy get thumbs up or down from you? When groups are intermingled, the principle of majority rule carries you just so far because every majority region contains minorities and every minority region that could be a majority region also contains minorities. Do you have a particular principle you apply do discern which rebellions are legitimate? If you consider armed rebellion over borders (as opposed to armed rebellion over repression and lack of human rights and equal political rights) acceptable sometimes but not always, just which criteria are you applying to decide which border revolts to support? The principle established by the UN Charter is that the change of borders by force of arms is unacceptable. Force may only be used in self-defense. It is not a perfect principle. And, of necessity, it leaves untouched borders that were created by force of arms prior to the creation of the UN. But the merry-go-round has to stop somewhere. If we start to undo borders created by force of arms, there is no end to it. So, despite the inevitability of imperfection, I think the principle has great utility and should be observed. That principle is indeed the very basis upon which Arab violence to change the boundaries of Israel, including the territory it occupies, is illegitimate. It also renders illegitimate the Pakistani invasion of Kashmir which, under the Indian Independence Act of 1947 and the extant notions of sovereignty, had acceded to India. That it is in rebellion now and military force is necessary to suppress that rebellion is neither here nor there, and it is doubtful that such force would be required if Pakistan refrained from providing support. So you see, Pakistan is in the role of the Arab states and India is in the role of Israel. If India cannot use force to suppress armed rebellion, how do you justify Israel using force to maintain its control over the West Bank? China was not a UN member when it invaded Tibet (although its claims on Tibet are not without historical foundation). It is a tragedy, but one that neither the structure of the UN nor the legal rules of the UN Charter can redress. You can consider that hypocrisy, or you can consider it practical reality, because, if the goal is to end armed conflict, you must accept where the de facto borders lie when the principle of self-defense only comes into force. There are many boundary disputes in the world. We do not accept the use of force to resolve them. As far as I know, the West Bank is in fact unique as it remains under military occupation, not incorporated into Israel, something that the Arabs apparently would like to occur, undoing the partition, and Israel obviously refuses, insisting on its legality by virtue of the actions of the UN, yes, that one, the one you say is hypocritical (an inappropriate anthropomorphism as the UN as an organization of states, not of people). But, if Israel will not incorporate the West Bank and maintains it as occupied, as it does, then the Fourth Geneva Convention applies. There is no recognized human right to live within particular boundaries. There is a recognized human right, embodied in the Fourth Geneva Convention, not to be colonized, as Israel colonizes the Palestinians, and there is a principle that border disputes may not be resolved with violence. Israel would like to ignore the first principle while asserting the second. There is no other comparable situation in the world. Finally, it is simply not acceptable for Israel to defend its illegal conduct on the grounds that there is illegal conduct elsewhere. Israel, by its illegal behavior, perpetuates and renders intractable a conflict that threatens harm to much of the world, including the United States. As there is no legal principle that obliges us to tolerate this, I see no reason why we should. I expect my government to stop supporting Israel's illegal colonization and to use its power to bring the threat to an end. I confidently expect that eventually it will and I see know reason at all why anyone should pay the slightest attention to the ludicrous excuses that Israelis offer (or more often don't bother to offer relying on accusations of anti-Semitism) for Israel's flagrantly illegal conduct.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 6:11pm

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Roid loses every time because he doesn't respect the people he argues against and doesn't bother to respond to their individual argument. he stand on his soap box, and a filthy box it is, and declaims his usual rants. You are not even interesting, Roid.

- nr106646

April 10, 2012 at 6:16pm

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Hey, fuckface. Yeah you, the idiot NR(what's your number). Tell me you really are not that stupid. The point, you jackass, is that European nations can hardly defend tolerance for anti-Semitism on the grounds that things are worse in Pakistan, or North Korea, or, for that matter, in Israel, now can they? Take a moment. Think hard. See if you can get that very, very simple idea to settle into the ball of goo you use for a brain. Now, if you have managed to get that straight, maybe you can then understand that Israel also cannot justify its illegal behavior by pointing to anti-Semitism in Europe or to the fact that things are worse in Pakistan or North Korea. Got it? Practice for a few days. See if some lightbulb will go off.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 6:19pm

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I respect ProfEthan. He comports himself civilly, expresses himself rationally. What's not to respect? I don't respect you, NR, because you are an idiot who resorts to abusive behavior out of frustration with your own all too obvious incapacities. Of course anything I say could not possibly interest you. It is all waaaaaaaaay over your head. You cannot even follow the tread of a simple argument, let alone one that has a couple of propositions that have to be knit together. But don't worry. I don't care what you find interesting or uninteresting. Indeed, I am sure I would be appalled by anything that could interest a moron like you.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 6:24pm

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"Even if I had lost the argument -- when I haven't even cleared my throat yet --" To makover; Shouffouni gibor. To roi: Translation (so that you don't have to bother your Israeli relatives for translating it for you): `My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!’

- noga1

April 10, 2012 at 6:32pm

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ProfEthan writes: "In 2004, the UN offered its own solution to the Greek refugee problem: 1. ONLY the actual refugee generation, NOT their descendants, counted as refugees. 2. ONLY those refugees over 65 years of age could return to northern Cyprus. (3) Under NO circumstances could the Return constitute more than 5% of the total population in any one area of Northern Cyprus, or in Northern Cyprus taken as a whole. Yes--THAT is what the UN itself considered justice in the case of the Cypriot refugees and Turkey. No one makes a deep moral issue of it, or suggests that Turkey is itself deligitimized by of its colonialist and racist behavior." You do know, Prof, that it was Greece that destabilized Cyprus by deposing its president in an attempt to annex the island to Greece, don't you? How does that Turkey a colonizer? Meanwhile, since you consider the solution to the Greek Cypriot refugee problem to be so unjust to them as to be acceptable to the UN and the world, I assume you would support the return of Palestinians to Israel up to 5% of the population of Israel, that would be 350,000. In turn, Palestinian would have to accept as legal residents Israeli settlers up to 5% of its population. That would be 200,000. Or does your sense of what is just and not hypocritical require larger numbers than in Cyprus? Or would you favor pure population exchange? As part of a final settlement, Israel withdraws all of the settlements and the Palestinians abandon their claimed right of return? Or is it somehow the case that your sympathies for Tibetans and Kashmiris, and Cypriots obliges the Palestinians both to concede the claims of all refugees and also legitimize the illegal Israeli settlements? Just what solution to the conflict between Israel and Palestine do your sympathies for Tibetans, Kashmiris, and Cypriots suggest to you? And what about the Tamil Tigers? What lessons do you draw from Sri Lanka for the settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? While we are at it, should Japan bomb North Korea?

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 6:43pm

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Why, noga, that is very charming of you. A witty remark without a single lie or smear. I really didn't think you had it in you.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 6:49pm

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"The point, you jackass, is that European nations can hardly defend tolerance for anti-Semitism on the grounds that things are worse in Pakistan, or North Korea, or, for that matter, in Israel, now can they?" The point is that there is antisemitism in Europe and that they don't need to defend it. They rely on assholes like to do it. You are a waste, Roid.

- nr106646

April 10, 2012 at 7:15pm

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You are even dumber than I thought. And nothing much comes out of your foul mouth that is not a lie. Human garbage stinking up the place.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 7:41pm

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To be sure, Roid--Greece destabilized Cyprus first. But if you take that line, then it is also becomes crucially relevant that the Palestinians attacked the Israelis first, in Nov. 1947, and that for the next five months the Palestinians were winning the war they started (until mid-April 1948). One conclusion might then be: the Palestinians are entitled to no rights of any kind to any recompense of any kind; they started it, they lost, end of story. Yet one often sees this kind of reasoning applied to Cyprus and never to Israel-Palestine. Similarly in 1967 the Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians did something similar to Greece with Cyprus in 1974; they destabilized the geopolitical situation (and with military moves, not simply political ones). The result was that Jordan lost the West Bank--which had been officially part of Jordan for 20 years with NO dissent from any international organizations. And Egypt lost Gaza--which had been officially part of Egypt for 20 years with NO dissent from any international organizations. None of this changes the scale and impact of Turkish invasion and colonization on the Greeks of northern Cyprus, or the important political implications of what the UN officially thinks would be a "fair outcome" on Cyprus 40 years later, compared to Israel 60 years later. And none of this changes the grave unwisdom of the Israeli West Bank settlements. But compare Turkey strutting through the UN to the outrage and fury the Israelis face, compare the Cyprus Plan to any of the peace plans which the Palestinians have rejected out of hand to international leftist applause, and you see the profound nature of the hypocrisy problem. The broader picture shows many people stealing horses to great applause, Roid. So why the focus on the West Bank as if it were an example of a unique and uniquely large injustice? It isn't. For instance, the Partition of India/Pakistan in 1947/1948 caused 20 times the refugees (14 million) and 50 times the casualties (800,000 dead) as did the Partition of the British Mandate of Palestine in exactly the same two years. I don't like the West Bank, as I've said. But again, given these facts about the world, why the focus on Israel or the West Bank as if it were an example of a unique and uniquely large injustice? It isn't.

- ProfEthan

April 10, 2012 at 8:00pm

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For the first time he is corralled in the corner like a wild animal. He has been obsessed with hatred. Looking for allies in theocratic Iran, terrorist Palestinians, and now German nazis. His obsessive advocacy for failed international institutions is a failure. Only he can find by himself why he is so wrong and mistaken. This is the dilemma of the self hatred Jew. Funny that we don't find the self hatred Moslem so obvious, of course some Imam will have them killed, thus their silence. It is the Jewish way that we discuss and discuss, the respect for human discourse , even with extreme traitors. We strive for honest justice. The highest human intellectual discussions take place in the Talmud, and have nothing to do with religion, it is pure intellect. Also I highly recommend Gunther Plaut The Torah A Commentary. That is what Judaism is all about. You talk it over, even if harsh words come about from those with lack of patience and diplomatic respect for your adversary. Patience is a very special gift. The world was not created in one day, it took six days and on the seventh we rested. The following editorial may explain in part this dilemma. The self hatred Jew. http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-4214039,00.html Why Jews demonize Israel Op-ed: Persecution complex prompts some Jews to align themselves with ill-advised partners Dan Calic Why are some Jews willing to stand side by side with the Palestinians and demonize Israel? What motivates them to think that slicing up Israel is the way to resolve the conflict?   The answer to such questions goes to the heart of the Jewish psyche, within an historical context. Mideast Changing The new Palestinian tragedy / Guy Bechor Op-ed: Palestinians stunned to discover that world, Israel's Left no longer care about them Full Story   No other people come close to suffering as much persecution throughout history as the Jews. They were held in bondage in Egypt, exiled to Babylonia, conquered, persecuted and exiled by Rome, persecuted and exiled by the Crusaders, by England and by Spain. The Holocaust destroyed two thirds of Europe's Jews.   Having endured two millennia of being history's scapegoat, it should come as no surprise many Jews have been so deeply affected, they have developed a "persecution complex."   Most people, including Jews, view themselves and others as inherently "good," rather than "evil." However, when factoring in the persecution complex built into the DNA of many Jews, this becomes a game changer.   Having been ridiculed, exiled, tortured, discriminated against and killed for so long, Jews understandably prefer to be seen as making positive contributions to society. Indeed, Jewish contributions in the fields of medicine, technology, education, science, business, entertainment and so on are proportionately higher than any other group of people, by far.   The true underdog is Israel The last thing Jews want is to be unjustly accused of doing to others what has been done to them. Sadly, some have taken advantage of this mindset. For example, how many times have you seen Israel compared to Nazi Germany, when it comes to the Palestinians? This is a vitriolic attempt at reverse psychology designed to label Jews as hypocrites.   No Jew wishes to be seen as persecuting a perceived underdog, or viewed as an obstacle to "peace, justice and reconciliation." Indeed, Jews have been leading advocates of these noble goals for generations.   However, when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, some Jews in their zeal to be considered champions of the "underdog" have either failed to realize or are unwilling to accept something quite important.   Those whose cause they are promoting have no interest in reciprocating. The Muslims are not going to extend their hands in gratitude if Israel turns over land to them for a state. They will not suddenly see Jews as their friends and willingly agree to peaceful coexistence with Israel.   Indeed, at this time Arabs live in a world where many parents, schools, political and religious leaders as well as the media have convinced them the Jews are responsible for all their problems.   What's tragic is that the Jews who are demonizing Israel are playing directly into the hands of people who will turn on them the moment their dream becomes reality. In reality, the actions of these Jews are a misguided attempt to endear themselves to others by taking up the popular cause of the "underdog," at times to their own detriment.   This is one of those times. While championing the underdog is noble, this is the wrong "underdog." The true underdog is Israel. Hopefully these Jews will realize this before it's too late.   Follow Ynetnews on Facebook and Twitter    

- JAIMECHUCH

April 10, 2012 at 8:12pm

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ProfEthan. I strongly disagree to your minimization of the development of the liberated territories. Apparently you have not given the proper thinking. We were denied access to our sites for twenty years. Denied access to Jerusalem Temple Wall, denied access to the Patriarch Tombs in Hebron, denied access to Rachel's tomb, to Joseph's tomb. And utter destruction, by the Jordanians, of all of the ancient synagogues in Judea and Samaria. Abbas and the Palestinians have declared that in an eventual Palestinian state it will be free of Jews. Israel was attacked in 1967, the Moslem leaders shouted at all winds they were going to push the Jews to the sea. And it was not a way of saying. They meant it and failed. The Arabs lost fair and square. And amazingly they were not pushed to where they belong, in Jordan. And now with all their hatred and terrorism, and in spite of oppression by their Palestinian leaders, and unfair and dishonest blaming of Israel, they might even get their own state. Which is a big question mark, because Palestinian leaders don't have what it takes to be true leaders. Gold Meir had it right, peace will come when Palestinians will care for their children more than anything else. I may add just like the Jews, like the Israelis do. What kind of people are they when they see the Jews exchanging one Israeli Jew prisoner for 1000 Palestinian prisoners, and are not ashamed.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 10, 2012 at 8:48pm

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| roidubouloi "You are even dumber than I thought. And nothing much comes out of your foul mouth that is not a lie. Human garbage stinking up the place." How profound, the attorney in waiting says: you are dumb, I say, you are dumb, he says you are dumber, I wanna say so is your mama, roid dear boy.... But why bother. This dumb shit can't talk about antisemitism in Europe without bringing up the West Bank as if Europeans gave a shit about the West Bank. They hate Jews and it's another way of justifying their hatred. Now, antisemitism in Europe is flourishing from Lithuania and Hungary to Norway and Sweden, from Spain to Austria. Now they sic their Arab and Muslim dogs on the Jews of Europe and Roid the fool yells, "West Bank."

- arnon1

April 10, 2012 at 9:00pm

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The above was written in support of NR's views on Roid.

- arnon1

April 10, 2012 at 9:02pm

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"Why the focus on Israel or the West Bank as if it were an example of a unique and uniquely large injustice? It isn't." Prof, I don't think Israel-Palestine is a uniquely large injustice in the scheme of history. The point I am trying to make, and not very well it seems, is that all these comparisons of the scale of this injustice relative to that injustice are ludicrous. They have nothing do with anything. If we catch someone stealing cars, we don't say, "Oh, but we cannot prosecute him because there are far worse offenses going unpunished. This is not a uniquely large crime." Yes, looking at other problems can sometimes inform our thinking, but deciding that the resolution of this conflict must be this way because the resolution of this other one was that way and a third is unresolved is a hopeless and completely unproductive task. It doesn't matter whatsoever what was or was not done with regard to Tibet, Cyprus, Kashmir, Afghanistan, Iraq, Darfur. No more does it matter that whatever Israel is doing wrong there are far worse deeds being committed elsewhere. It is all completely irrelevant. The Israeli view seems to be that the Arabs caused the wars, they were beaten, now they have to accept whatever Israel chooses to offer as terms of settlement of the conflict. While Israelis like to talk about what they offer as being incredibly generous, my observation is that Israel insists on everything that it desires and does not compromise at all. It expects the Palestinians to abandon their claimed right of return AND legitimize as many of the illegal settlements as Israel thinks it can practicably hold onto in exchange for bits of desert that no one wants. Who could possibly, willingly accept a deal like that unless they felt they had no choice, which is exactly where Israel is trying to put the Palestinians by refusing to deal rationally? "We won. You have to surrender. Why? Because Germany surrendered and Japan surrendered. That's why." Except that, in the real world, the immediate neighbors may have been beaten, but the Arab world was not subjugated, nor the larger Moslem world. Nor does Israel have the power, now or ever, to subjugate it. We couldn't even subjugate Iraq. Israel is not going to subjugate a billion Moslems. It is as if someone had conquered New York, demands that New Yorkers make peace by conceding Long Island and New York City, and also expects the rest of the United States to just stand around doing nothing or New Yorkers to consider themselves defeated while the entire rest of the United States is still there. Oh, says the would-be conqueror, "But it was all your fault and, because we are so fair, we will give you an equal amount of land somewhere in the arctic. Who could turn down a land swap like that?" As a practical matter, who in the world is ever going to be persuaded that the Fourth Geneva Convention, as interpreted by the International Court of Justice, plus all of the UNSC resolutions demanding that Israel respect its obligations under the Convention are of no importance because China is occupying Tibet? No one except the people who are hell bent to steal the Palestinians' land and have persuaded only themselves that this is a compelling justification. The rest of the world is not going to abandon the positions negotiated in the UNSC over decades because of this sort of reasoning. Certainly not China. If the conflict is not settled, billions of Moslems will still exist in 100 years and likely be better organized and more powerful. If the Palestinians don't spill out of the West Bank into Israel long before that, what do you think is going to happen? If oil becomes scarcer over time and the slightest twitch in oil supplies has the potential to cause a recession in the west, what do you think is going to happen? Are any of the geopolitical interests that press upon the region going to retreat or be satiated because it is unfair, unjust, tragic that China occupies Tibet or India Kashmir or Turkey Cyprus? From the standpoint of this conflict, who cares? Why should anyone care? If this conflict is going to be settled, it will have to be settled upon terms that all the interested parties can live with, including the Arab world, the Moslem world, Europe, and the United States. And Israel too, but Israel least of all because it is the smallest and weakest of the powers engaged and is sustained in the conflict only by the support of the United States. The real question then is, what can the United States live with? It wants a pacified Middle East, it wants warfare kept far away from oil supplies. It wants no opportunity for Russia or China to wreak havoc with its economic interests by bidding for regional clients. It wants to minimize the occasion for terrorism directed against it. It wants to uphold modern international law and the structure of the UN, both of which were essentially invented by the United States for the purpose of managing the world at an acceptable cost to itself. It wants a settlement that is not so unfavorable to Israel that other clients of the US become skeptical of the value of being a US client. It wants a settlement not so unfavorable to Israel that domestic American opinion is that the outcome was unfair. In light of those interests, can the United States live with a settlement that 1) gives Israel adequate security measures, 2) is not a demographic threat to Israel because it extinguishes any unresolved claims west of the Green Line, 3) gives the Palestinians sovereignty in the land east of the Green Line which was in any case part of the Arab partition and the UNSC has repeatedly told Israel it cannot grab? I think the answer is rather obvious that it can. Can Europe live with it? Sure. Can the Arab world live with it? Most likely. The Saudi plan is already more than half way there. When it becomes clear enough that the Palestinians and the Arab world will accept such an outcome, or when it becomes clear enough that the risks to the US of this conflict continuing are too great, that is what will happen. It is only a matter of time. The question is whether Israel would rather be at least a co-author of a solution so that it maximizes its outcome or whether it wants to roll the dice and live with what will ultimately be imposed upon it. In the meantime, Israel does what it can to perpetuate the conflict in the forlorn hope of legitimizing the settlements. That deal has been turned down three times already and yet Israel is "shocked, shocked" that the Arabs do not see Israel's great magnanimity in agreeing to keep only some of what it has taken illegally. Israel's strategic position erodes with delay and it is lately in the utterly perverse position of threatening the west, upon which it depends completely, with war or economic ruin if the west does not take care of Iran to Israel's satisfaction and on Israel's timetable. These truly are dangerous delusions of grander. All because the Likud cannot admit that it made a colossal error in pursuing Greater Israel. Tibet is of no help in getting out of the mess. Tibet does not justify Israel's violations of international law and no one but the pro-Israel zealots can be persuaded that it is of any relevance. It's a case of Israelis blowing smoke up their own asses and wondering why there is no applause.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 9:44pm

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"That is what Judaism is all about. You talk it over, even if harsh words come about from those with lack of patience and diplomatic respect for your adversary. Patience is a very special gift. The world was not created in one day, it took six days and on the seventh we rested." Really? Clearly, Jaime, there are some exceptions to that very admirable rule. You consistently refused to even engage with my practical questions regarding Chamberlain's decision and on the second day you accused me of not caring what the consequences of WW2 were, when the entire thrust of my argument before that had been about the possibility that the consequences of WW2 could have been different (one must at least consider it, if one is a rational human being) if war had broken out in 1938. Every single poster on this thread apart from you knows that, whether they agree with me or not. You also accused me of making comments about so-called "self-hating Jews" and when pushed you could not produce a single shred of evidence that I ever said such a thing -- which I wouldn't do, as I would consider it inappropriate and embarrassing to get involved in such a discussion. Perhaps the fact that I'm not Jewish is the real problem for you. Just too much trouble to "talk it over' with the goyim, I suppose.

- ironyroad

April 10, 2012 at 9:45pm

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Well then, arnon, yell anti-Semitism if you like. See how much that accomplishes. It seems you too fail to get the point: Anti-Semitism in Europe no more justifies Israeli colonization of the Palestinians than Israeli colonization of the Palestinians justifies anti-Semitism in Europe. If Israel is perpetuating the conflict by colonizing the Palestinians and refusing to stop or negotiate the end of its colonization, of what relevance is it that there is anti-Semitism in Europe or that Günter Grass in particular is a Nazi? None.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 9:56pm

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The issue, Roid, is that lots of those who point the finger at Israel are themselves covered in blood. It undermines the moral impetus of the Turks' condemnations of Israel when the Turks themselves have engaged in a massive and truly classic imperial colonization project on northern Cyprus and no one bats an eye. That holds for everyone who does't bat an eye, too. The parallel is the prosecutor who is a serial killer and he brings into court and prosecutes to the max a jaywalker, and does it with all the moral condemnation of which he is capable to convince a jury, many of whom he knows are themselves serial killers--and the sentence for jaywalking is death. Gunter Grass, with his SS background, has now joined that jury. Lots of people in the Left, in Germany, the UK and the US, are happy to see him join them. As someone who participated in the first project of genocide of Jews, Grass now provides cheer to those engaged in the second project by essentially recycling medieval blood-libel (Jews as [potential] mass murderers): and then he expresses outrage that anyone would find his conduct questionable.

- ProfEthan

April 10, 2012 at 10:00pm

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Günter Grass says Israel is a threat to world peace. Whether they follow his specific claims or not, millions will accept this accusation because the Israel-Palestine conflict threatens to spiral out of control, Israel is threatening to bomb Iran where a good chunk of the world's oil comes from, the whole world has condemned the settlements as illegal, and only an idiot could imagine they are not a provocation and obstacle to peace. Israel says, "The settlements don't matter because the Arabs would still hate us so we will keep them thank you very much and anyone who disagrees is an anti-Semite." Oddly, no one is persuaded. But, somehow, tarring Günter Grass as a Nazi is supposed to change the syllogism that, given these circumstances, Israel is a threat to world peace. Levi says, "We had better pay attention to this even if Grass was over the top." The response is, "Levi is a low life." Like I said, self-delusion on a grand scale.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 10:09pm

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No, Prof, that is not the issue or even an issue. It is of no consequence to anything in the world, least of all the future of Israel, whether lots of those who point a finger at Israel are covered in blood or grape jelly. Nor will those who are inclined to credit what Grass says going to be persuaded that he is wrong because he is held up as a Nazi. To the contrary. They are going to be persuaded that, if that is the best that Israel can say in response, that Grass is a Nazi, then he must be right. Banning him from Israel guarantees that he will be widely credited.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 10:16pm

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Is being in the Waffen SS as more or less a kid of 16/17 (who had grown up since age six in the wall-to-wall propaganda of Nazi Germany) for three months in 1945 as the place collapsed around him an "SS background" or "participating in genocide"? We're not talking about a set of adult choices here. Does the work of a lifetime after that, both as a writer and as a public intellectual, count for nothing? Work that among other things probed exactly the mentality that led to the first experience? It seems to me that Grass can be condemned in every which way for his recent tirade without overdoing it by rushing energetically to discover that his novels were always no good or that he was a secret Nazi sympathizer all his life or some such nonsense. That kind of stuff will always backfire.

- ironyroad

April 10, 2012 at 10:24pm

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Have the Turks transferred population from Turkey to Cyprus? Are the Turkish Cypriots desirous that the Turkish army withdraws its protection? Claiming that the Turks are colonizing Northern Cyprus is about like claiming that the US is colonizing South Korea.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 10:27pm

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"That kind of stuff will always backfire." Guaranteed to do so.

- roidubouloi

April 10, 2012 at 10:29pm

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ironyroad: You are asking a great deal of good faith from the Jewish people when you minimize Grass's transgression. And the fact that "That kind of stuff will always backfire." does not speak well of those multitudes who find this particular example to pile it on the revanchist Jews. The question for me is how come Grass could have written his anti-Fascist fiction and have this snake coiled up in his soul? What does it say about his quality and authenticity as a poet, author and moralist? In "Peeling the Onion" when he mentions the Wannsea villa he doesn't let on that he knew what it had been. How is it possible? The fact is, he seeks to project the moral superiority of his judgment as the son of genocide perpetrators who knows better. He actually believes that in that capacity he knows better than the victims of that genocide what the signs of genocide are. What he projects instead is his utter ignorance about the matter, his moral laziness, and an odious type of conformism. All of which factors played an important role in the general German silence when their Jewish neigbours were taken away into a black hole. He proves that he has no moral authority, that writing "The tin drum" may have been for him nothing more than an exercise in narcissistic mea culpa. It was all about HIM and his nation. Frankly, you spend a lot of time (too much effort in my opinion) in this thread trying to remind us that he wrote some good fiction and that he was only an adolescent when he was in the Waffen SS and that he was brainwashed since birth to believe in German superiority. As if it matters. Germans and the rest of the world may continue to regard his work as worthy and splendid or whatever and dismiss his latest effort as a one time deviation. We Jews reserve the right to be sceptical, either about his worth, or the one-time deviation theory, or the great importance that should be attached to what the whole world thinks. That you warn us about the stuff backfiring is quite amazing. What you are saying in effect is that we shouldn't make our own perspective known, we shouldn't make waves. The whole thing reminds me of Orwell's opening lines in his essay about antisemitism: " Young intellectual, Communist or near-Communist: “No, I do not like Jews. I've never made any secret of that. I can't stick them. Mind you, I'm not antisemitic, of course.” Middle-class woman: “Well, no one could call me antisemitic, but I do think the way these Jews behave is too absolutely stinking. The way they push their way to the head of queues, and so on. They're so abominably selfish. I think they're responsible for a lot of what happens to them.” Milk roundsman: “A Jew don't do no work, not the same as what an Englishman does. ’E's too clever. We work with this 'ere” (flexes his biceps). “They work with that there” (taps his forehead). Chartered accountant, intelligent, left-wing in an undirected way: “These bloody Yids are all pro-German. They'd change sides tomorrow if the Nazis got here. I see a lot of them in my business. They admire Hitler at the bottom of their hearts. They'll always suck up to anyone who kicks them.” Intelligent woman, on being offered a book dealing with antisemitism and German atrocities: “Don't show it me, please don't show it to me. It'll only make me hate the Jews more than ever.” The last example is particularly relevant to this discussion.

- noga1

April 11, 2012 at 7:06am

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"That kind of stuff will always backfire." Woody Allen, in "Scoop": "What instrument do you play?" "Oh, I play the Bruce Harp." "The Bruce Harp? I've never heard of it." "Oh they used to call it a Jew's Harp but you know how those Jews are! You say anything remotely antisemitic and they start sending you letters."

- noga1

April 11, 2012 at 7:12am

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irony: Grass' novels were or are very good indeed and you are right, he should be condemned for his most recent tirades. Kurt Vonnegut put it very well when he wrote: "If I'd been born in Germany, I suppose I would have been a Nazi, bopping Jews and gypsies and Poles around, leaving boots sticking out of snowbanks, warming myself with my virtuous insides. So it goes." However, you must admit that the Waffen SS past is not something that should be taken lightly either. It's not like belonging to "Boy Scouts" isn't it? Waffen SS was declared criminal organization and if my memory serves me right being a member could disqualify one for seeking American Citizenship.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 11, 2012 at 7:21am

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I often wonder if Germans and Europeans would have more respect for Jews if Jews were more like Palestinians: vengeful, implacable, maximalist, violent, terrorists, rejecting any compromise. http://www.wrmea.com/archives/December_2005/0512022.html "Now, you say we refuse to recognize Israel. Yes, we refuse to recognize Israel because the Israel you are speaking about is an act of usurpation of an Arab territory, and Arab land; an act of ouster of an Arab population. Every Israeli who is in Israel today is living in the home of an Arab who has not been compensated for his property. Every Israeli who is in Israel today is there because an Arab has been ousted. Israel is, because Palestine has been made not to be. The being of Israel is the non-being of Palestine. We do not endorse the non-being of an Arab country called Palestine. We will not recognize Israel as long as that means non-recognition of Arab Palestine. … DS: If she’s a usurper state, and inhabiting your land, the only successful conclusion, from your point of view, would be her final demise, or defeat? FS: Not necessarily. DS: What else would accommodate your ambition? [-] FS: Give up statehood, but not give up existence. DS: Well, that’s charming. Don’t die, but go away. [-] DS: Turn over the state to an Arab country, is that it? The state of Israel? FS: While they’re there, it will not be an exclusively Arab country. Any Jew who has no place else to go will be able to stay in Palestine;" ______________ Yes, I mean this kind of implacability. This kind of undentable view of Jewish lack of rights in this world. So much easier to come to terms with, to admire, to coddle, to support, no?

- noga1

April 11, 2012 at 7:24am

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In 1967 Egypt, Jordan and Syria attacked Israel to push the Jews to the sea. The Arabs lost. Jerusalem and the territories were liberated, now the Jewish worship sites were accessible to the Jews. The Sinai was conquered. The Golan Heights were no longer shooting site attacking Israel. Gaza was no longer the terrorist center against Israel. And the liberated territories are a center of continuous progress. The continuous building provides jobs to thousands of Palestinian construction workers, paid 1.4 billion USD, and taxes of 100 million USD are given back by Israel such that the Palestinian Authority can function and exist. The Jew haters Palestinians are asking the anti Israel gangs to stop rocking to boat. These includes ultra leftists and self hatred Jews that love Iran and German nazis. Obsessed delusional promoters of failed international organizations are included, inept mediocre failure. Even, not too smart Chamberlain arm the German nazis , obsessed, admirers are included.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 11, 2012 at 7:56am

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You see it is the Chamberlain mentality. Let the German nazis arm themselves. Declare peace forever. And cause the Holocaust and WWII up to 70 million dead. How can a not too smart defend this? Because he is not too smart. Let us recognize his handicap. Ignore the not too smart chap.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 11, 2012 at 8:10am

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The Turks certainly did transfer tens of thousands of Turkish colonists from the Mainland to Cyprus after 1974; none of them had previous ties to Cyprus, and they inhabit the properties that the Greek Cypriots who were pushed out by the Turkish army and/or fled used to own. The original refugees numbered 200,000. That gives you an idea of the scale that has gone on. Roid adduces an alleged parallel in U.S. domination of S. Korea. But it is hardly the case that hundreds of thousands of Americans are moving to S. Korea, replacing actual Koreans. Cyprus is a different and much nastier kettle of fish. Of course, the Indian colonization of Kashmir with Hindus was on a larger scale than the Turkish colonization of northern Cyprus, and the Chinese colonization of Tibet with Han Chinese was far larger even than that. But these topics never go to the Security Council. As I said, the judges in this case are covered in blood--while being honored internationally. As for Roid's claim about Israel being the cause of potential disruption of world peace, so it is a special case, the only threats to peace are coming from the genocidal, maximalist, racist, Islamist-fanatic Palestinians who are the cause of the local problem in the former British Mandate. Itt is genocidal, maximalist, racist Islamist-fanatic Iran that is the cause of the problem in the larger region. And Gunter Grass in his vile poem resurrecting anti-semitic tropes from the Middle Ages now supports Iran as an innocent victim of Jewish aggression. As for Grass serving in the SS: he wasn't drafted directly into the Waffen SS, and he didn't exactly volunteer either, but the issue is not just the spring of 1945 when he was 17. It's that his entire impressionable youth was spent under Nazi anti-semitic propaganda everyday. People will say he transcended it. I now do not think so. It turns out that all his life, as one posting said, he had this coiled snake inside. Now we know, and it now legitimate to look back to find the causes.

- ProfEthan

April 11, 2012 at 8:19am

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Additionally or alternatively, one could argue that Gunter Grass is just expressing the current thinking among his fashionable far-left friends. But if so, this returns to the questions we have been puzzling over: (1) why, of all the "liberation" movements in all the world, the German far left is so strongly attracted to a movement, the Palestinians, that aims at genocide against Jews, while (2) within the German far left there has always been since the late 1960s an overt anti-semitic tinge and a far larger refusal to recognize its existence. (The latter point is made in Tilman Fichter's interview in Sight and Sound from 2005, referenced above.)

- ProfEthan

April 11, 2012 at 8:32am

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Says noga: "I often wonder if Germans and Europeans would have more respect for Jews if Jews were more like Palestinians: vengeful, implacable, maximalist, violent, terrorists, rejecting any compromise." Then she excerpts from an interview conducted in 1967, leaving out a great deal of what was said. Here, however, is an excerpt from the Likud Party Constitution, as in effect to this day, never amended or modified, under General Purposes: "b. Safeguarding the right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel as an eternal, inalienable right, working diligently to settle and develop all parts of the land of Israel, and extending national sovereignty to them." While the Likud continues publicly to claim all of the territory west of the Jordan, the Palestinians have already recognized the State of Israel and accepted that the Green Line should be the border between Palestine and Israel, abandoning their territorial claims west of the Green Line including territory that was originally granted them in the UN partition. So, who is it exactly that is "implacable, maximalist?" I should say it is Benjamin Netanyahu and the Likud government of Israel. Anyone interested should go to noga's link and read the entire interview from which she excerpts in order to give an appearance of one-sided implacability. Here, for example, is part of what she left out: DS: Dr. Sayegh, why will the Arab countries refuse to sit down, at this point, with Israel to negotiate peace?… FS: For the simple reason that, when Israel asks for negotiation, it says it wants to negotiate with the Arab states. It so happens that the party primarily responsible for discussing the fate of that area is the people of Palestine. We, in Kuwait, Syria, the UAR, Iraq, all the Arab states, have no right to dispose of a portion of Palestinian territory. It is up to the Palestinians to decide what they agree to and what they do not agree to, by way of ultimate disposition of their land. Israel wants to negotiate with non-parties, rather than with the party to the problem. Secondly, by saying, “let us negotiate directly,” Israel is saying—in a whisper—“keep the United Nations out of the picture.” This is the virtual implication of the demand for direct negotiations: the ouster of the United Nations, the blockage of the way of the United Nations to intervene. Now, let me remind you, the United Nations has been responsible for the creation of every stage in the evolution of the Palestine problem, from 1947 until today. Israel cannot, having benefited from a partial implementation of U.N. recommendations in the past, having benefited from U.N. actions, and from U.N. inaction, Israel cannot now say, “Let the U.N. stand out of the picture; I want to deal directly with the Arab states.” It cannot at one time say, “The whole problem should be decided upon by the U.N.,” and then, at another stage, say, “The U.N. has no say in the matter.”…

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 9:11am

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The only reason the UN recommendations were only partly implemented was because of the Palestinian Arabs in 1947, and the Arab states in 1967. The UN has proven completely incapable of having any peace measure recommendations accepted by the Arabs in general or the Palestinians in particular. Far more representative of Palestinian opinion than Sayegh is the current Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who said on Palestinian TV in January that it is the religious duty of every Muslim to kill Jews. ALL Jews. The same Hadith is quoted in the Hamas Charter. The chant that killing all Jews was a religious duty was the chant that greeted Ismail Haniyah the head of Hamas when he arrived in "moderate" Tunisia in January. And it's not just bluster. That was the message of the Second Intifada, where 2/3 of Israelis killed were--intentionally--old people, women and children. Children on a bus going to school, old people at a Seder: legitimate targets. And that's the express opinion of Yusuf al-Qaradawi, with his radio following of 40 million. That's the message, too, of thousands of rockets shot from Gaza aimed at Israeli civilian targets within the 1967 borders. It was still happening two weeks ago. And that's the message of Mohammed Mera's slaughter of Jewish children in Toulouse. When is Gunter Grass going to write a bitter poem about THAT? Answer: NEVER.

- ProfEthan

April 11, 2012 at 9:29am

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And the Arabs want to push the Jews to the sea after all the Mediterranean waters are warm enough. 1948, 1967, 1973, 2006, 2008. Theocratic Iran wants a friendly nuclear bomb, according to the not too smart, because of the Iraq war. And declares Thomas Friedman is not anti Israel. And declares the German nazi is a good German nazi, quite an oxymoron. And defends only Christians have done the fighting for the USA. And declares Chamberlain a hero for defending arming nazi Germany. Well the Galicianer is a pea of the pot. And the not too smart is is, well, not too smart. Is Shakespeare an anti-Semite for his Jew demanding a pound of flesh? Is Richard Wagner an anti Semite? Is the German nazi an anti-Semite? Well the not too smart declares I am not qualified since I am not Jewish I don't know what a self hatred Jew is all about. And goes on and on. Israel is a threat because it has the audacity of defending itself. Hey don't you know, Jews are not supposed to defend themselves. Go and tell these bubishe stories, these idiotic stories to the Goyim. They will believe them. Don't mess with the Yidn. This is the 21st century, don't you know?

- JAIMECHUCH

April 11, 2012 at 9:46am

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Says ProfEathan: "As for Roid's claim about Israel being the cause of potential disruption of world peace, so it is a special case, the only threats to peace are coming from the genocidal, maximalist, racist, Islamist-fanatic Palestinians who are the cause of the local problem in the former British Mandate. It is genocidal, maximalist, racist Islamist-fanatic Iran that is the cause of the problem in the larger region." I did not say that Israel is THE cause of a potential disruption of world peace. I said its policies are in fact A threat to world peace because Israel insists on maintaining its illegal settlements as a condition to reaching a peaceful resolution with the Palestinians. Thus, it holds them and their future state hostage to their concession of that to which Israel has no legitimate claim. It is hardly the case that "genocial, maximalist, racist Islamist-fanatic Iran" is the cause of Israel's intransigence or of its illegal conduct. ______________________ Under the category of "be careful what you wish for" there is this from ProfEathan: "But it is hardly the case that hundreds of thousands of Americans are moving to S. Korea, replacing actual Koreans. Cyprus is a different and much nastier kettle of fish." This would be a perfect summary description by the Arabs of the creation and subsequent history of the State of Israel. I will say again that I think these attempted analogies between different conflicts are pointless and irrelevant. But if one wants to play that game, then it is the Turkish Cypriots who are the Israelis in that conflict. Rather than an independent, bi-national Cyprus (formerly a part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire) in which the Greek Cypriots were the majority, the Greek Cypriots persistently sought Enosis, union with Greece. The response of the Turkish Cypriots in the 50s was a proposal for partition. Doesn't that sound familiar? They did not want to be submerged in a much larger Greek population anymore than the Jews were willing to be a minority in Palestine as part of a much larger Arab population. This was rejected and agreement was finally reached on an independent Cyprus under the presidency of a Greek Cypriot. But the Greeks didn't stop their pursuit of Enosis any more than the Arabs stopped trying to liquidate the state of Israel. In 1974, they deposed the president of independent Cyprus in preparation for the absorption of Cyprus into Greece. That precipitated the Turkish invasion in protection of the Turkish minority. There were then refugee movements between the Greek and Turkish zones, very little different than what occurred in Israel and Palestine. Reportedly, 160,000 Greek Cypriots moved south and 50,000 Turkish Cypriots moved north. If one wants to rely on these analogies and insists that the Greek Cypriots who moved be allowed to return, then why not the Palestinians who left the area west of the Green Line? I also believe it is a falsehood that India has undertaken to alter the demographics of Kashmir, but I don't consider it worth investigating. I believe the reverse is the case, that there has been a loss of the Hindu population in the Kashmir Valley. In any case, Kashmir is not occupied territory. It is incorporated in India. Basically, Prof, you have your historical analogies all garbled. It is a dangerous game. The issues in Israel and Palestine are the issues in Israel and Palestine. They cannot be resolved by reference to what was or was not done elsewhere, because the local histories are always different and there will be more than enough analogies for all sides. In Israel and Palestine, Israel is illegally colonizing the West Bank in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention and a host of UNSC resolutions. The refusal of Israel even to desist (despite previous agreements to do so) is a clear obstacle to peace. The previous claims of successive governments of Israel that the settlements were legal because temporary and able to be removed as part of a final settlement are not revealed as a lie, exactly as the Arabs always claimed. They recognized Israel at Oslo and what they got for their concession, in advance of a final settlement, was continued colonization. The insistence of Israel that its illegal acts be legitimized as a condition to a Palestinian state (to which they are entitled as a matter of international law) is an obstacle to peace. Israel's policies are a threat to world peace. That there are other threats to world peace, that there are other unresolved conflicts in the world, is of no relevance except for those who are doing their utmost to distract attention from Israel's illegal conduct and the threat that it poses not only to Israel but to the interests and security of the world. Israel is a state outlaw and should stop. That there are other outlaw states in the world is no excuse whatsoever.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 9:52am

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"And that's the message of Mohammed Mera's slaughter of Jewish children in Toulouse. When is Gunter Grass going to write a bitter poem about THAT? Answer: NEVER." Israeli settlers in the West Bank have also murdered Palestinians. The demand that anyone who criticizes Israel first undergo ritual purification by opining on an approved list of outrages against Jews is ridiculous. How about if the government of Benjaman Netanyahu -- the legal government in the West Bank -- ritually purifies itself by actually enforcing Israeli law against settlers who commit acts of violence? Writers are not under any obligation to speak about what Jews and Israelis want to hear. The Government of Israel has an affirmative duty to enforce its laws so as to provide security to all the inhabitants within its jurisdiction. All just more of an effort to justify bad deeds of Israel because others in the world commit bad deeds. This is a disreputable undertaking that neither persuades anyone of the justice of Israel's cause nor moves forward the day of a resolution.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 10:02am

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Galicianer king of the distortions. You are a liar. but again Galicianers are famous for being dishonest. No surprises here apologist for Iran, apologist for murderous Palestinians, apologist for German nazis, apologist for inept failed anti Israel international institutions. Is your sister leaving Israel and moving back with you? Do the right thing, you will make a wonderful chorus , hate Israel, hate Netanyahu, hate USA. This is freedom . If you lived in a Muslim country and complained, you would be history, and not be missed. With music a la Fiddler on the roof, how did he grow up to be such a self hatred Jew?

- JAIMECHUCH

April 11, 2012 at 10:18am

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Or is it when did he grow up to be such a self hatred Jew. Please my mediocre unlearned colleague , document the Israeli multitude of crimes against Palestinians you so often mention. If you don't do it, you will proof being a Galicianer dishonest liar, as I claim you are, roi de la non verite . Cest sa. Meshant, meshant, meshant. A meshumet always a meshumet.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 11, 2012 at 10:28am

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I stand corrected on one point, the Turks have transferred population into Northern Cyprus, although again here, if one is looking for historical analogies, this would most closely approximate Jewish migration into Israel west of the Green Line. And there has been objection in the UN. "As a result of the Turkish invasion, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe stated that the demographic structure of the island has been continuously modified as a result of the deliberate policies of the Turks. Following the occupation of Northern Cyprus, civilian settlers from Turkey began arriving on the island. Despite the lack of consensus on the exact figures, all parties concerned admitted that Turkish nationals began systematically arriving in the northern part of the island in 1975.[88] It was suggested that over 120,000 settlers were brought into Cyprus from mainland Turkey.[88] This was despite Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which prohibits an occupier from transferring or deporting parts of its own civilian population into an occupied territory. UN Resolution 1987/19 (1987) of the "Sub-Commission On Prevention Of Discrimination And Protection Of Minorities", which was adopted on 2 September 1987, demanded "the full restoration of all human rights to the whole population of Cyprus, including the freedom of movement, the freedom of settlement and the right to property" and also expressed "its concern also at the policy and practice of the implantation of settlers in the occupied territories of Cyprus which constitute a form of colonialism and attempt to change illegally the demographic structure of Cyprus"." But further as to the danger of these analogies: "President Makarios, in his speech to the UN Security Council on 19 July 1974, described the coup which replaced him as "...an Invasion of Cyprus by Greece..." and called for the restoration of the democratic government." A further irony is that Turkey and Turkish Cypriots have accepted a federal "one-state solution," but the majority Greek Cypriots will not while also rejecting the legitimacy of the Turkish Republic of Cyprus: "On 24 April 2004, the Greek Cypriots rejected by a three-to-one margin the plan proposed by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan for the settlement of the Cyprus dispute. The plan, which was approved by a two-to-one margin by the Turkish Cypriots in a separate but simultaneous referendum, would have created a United Cyprus Republic and ensured that the entire island would reap the benefits of Cyprus' entry into the European Union on 1 May. The plan would have created a United Cyprus Republic consisting of a Greek Cypriot constituent state and a Turkish Cypriot constituent state linked by a federal government. More than half of the Greek Cypriots who were displaced in 1974 and their descendants would have had their properties returned to them and would have lived in them under Greek Cypriot administration within a period of 31/2 to 42 months after the entry into force of the settlement. For those whose property could not be returned, they would have received monetary compensation."

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 10:45am

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Oh my god! Lunatics are loose again in the land.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 10:47am

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That should read, "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus."

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 10:50am

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Partition for Israel. Partition for India. Partition for Ireland. Partition for Yugoslavia. No partition for Cyprus. There is no consistent logic as to borders and the resolution of border disputes. There is a consistent logic as to human rights law, although its observance and enforcement are anything but consistent.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 11:38am

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And no partition for Croatia, Kosovo, or Bosnia.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 11:40am

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Noga, nowhere did I say that people shouldn't make waves. I'm all for making waves. If the wave involves calling out antisemitism and anti-Israelism (that is, attacking the nation itself as opposed to its government's policies), then that wave should be made and who gets bounced around on it is a secondary issue. What I have a problem with is the kind of wave-making that causes absolute and irreversible judgements to be made that can then become problematic in themselves because the discussion then becomes a kind of "are you on my side or are you evil?" trap. The kind of thing that doesn't just condemn a writer's present day action on its merits but seeks to vacuum his entire career backwards through the filter of a current controversy. I'm sorry if I'm expending unwanted effort on this, but I think it's a serious issue. I don't think Grass should get away with this, but I don't want a kind of one-dimensional notion of a human being or an author to become the standard measure either. Is Tin Drum is about him and his nation? -- yes, very likely, it tends to be what writers do. Those entities, self and society, are the great subjects of the novel. But it's not the only thing he wrote: Local Anesthetic, for example, is in part about exactly what has been discussed here -- the tendency for Germans of the Nazi generation (a decade or so older than Grass) to want to play off their guilt by embracing the blind radicalism of the '68er students. Oh yes, give me a chance to find that Wannsee passage in Peeling the Onion -- I don't remember it and I wanted to look at it to see what you mean.

- ironyroad

April 11, 2012 at 12:07pm

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"And declares Thomas Friedman is not anti Israel." That is correct, Jaime. I did indeed say that, and I would like to declare it again. Amazing, that you were actually able to make an accurate point somewhere in the poisonous spew of lies and hatred that is your contribution to the discussion here. Well done!

- ironyroad

April 11, 2012 at 12:14pm

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The not so smart is still not so smart he is damn stupid.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 11, 2012 at 12:42pm

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The not so smart now is tin dumb, tiny dumb. Was born dumb and now is dumber. Ha Chamberlain a hero. And admires the German nazi. Veritable friend of the mediocre Galicianer lier. International legality of liberated territories. When is your sister coming to join you?

- JAIMECHUCH

April 11, 2012 at 1:07pm

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I have already discussed the specifics of the UN peace plan on Cyprus, 15 years after the pro-forma remarks in 1987. It's, um, quite different. And meanwhile Turkey is not subject to any world-wide campaign of condemnation for what is a true imperialist and colonialist action: the INVASION of a foreign state by a FOREIGN GOVERNMENTAL ARMY first, then that ARMY's driving away of the indigenous population, and only then, and by specific government policy, the flooding into the island of a huge population of Turks who have NO previous connection with Cyprus. This is alleged to be a parallel with Israel? Please. Compensation to the Greek refugees for loss of their property in the North would, under the Annan plan, not be paid by the Turkish government, but by the entire Cypriot population in the form of a tax. That is the Greek would be paying compensation to themselves for the loss of their property! Try that with the Palestinians... There would be a federal republic in which the Greek Cypriots would have half the representation and the Turkish population would have half as well, even though the Greek population in the southern half of the island is eight times that of the Turks. In addition, Return to former Greek areas (Cyrenia, Famagusta, Nicosia) was severely restricted under the Annan Plan (despite Roid). The UN plan envisaged the gradual return of only a fraction of the Greek refugees in a timeline which itself stretched over decades. They could accept monetary compensation, but that compensation wasn't coming primarily (let alone fully) from the Turks who now held their property (see above).

- ProfEthan

April 11, 2012 at 1:34pm

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You know, Jaime, every time I see one of your posts, I'm reminded of the Scottish comedian Billy Connolly, who had a great response for hecklers shouting unintelligibly from the back of the theater: "You're very brave up there in the darkness -- does the Mother Superior know you're out?"

- ironyroad

April 11, 2012 at 2:02pm

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If you really want to play the Cyprus (and other) analogies game, you have to keep your analogies straight, Prof, as in which team you are playing for. First, you have to decide whether legality under the UN Charter and international convention, treaty, and practice is or is not important. Unless that is you don't really give a damn about outcomes and just think that political rhetoric of states must meet some standard of yours for consistency. So, is the problem that Cyprus is divided or that the UN has not condemned Turkey to your satisfaction? If the problem is that Cyprus is divided, why isn't it a problem that Palestine is divided, meaning the Palestinian Arabs are correct and you lose your own game? Oh, I know the answer. Because Israel was a legitimate state under international law based on the UN partition of Palestine which was a UN protectorate. But, uh oh for you, no you are resting on international law and the legal authority of the UN. What then about the UN Charter that obliges Israel to observe the resolutions of the Security Council (not least because the territory in question is still a UN protectorate as not other legitimate sovereignty has ever been established)? The UN system and Geneva Conventions are peachy when you like the outcome, but not when you don't? Then another problem arises for you. Cyprus too was a legitimate bi-national state. Are you disputing the history that Greece in 1974 was attempting to destroy Cyprus as an independent state and take it over? Or is it just that the invasion of Israel, a legitimate state, in order to merge into into a larger Arab polity was somehow forbidden but the military takeover of Greece to merge into into a larger Greek polity was okay? Care to explain what principle you rest on for such a proposition? If a Greek takeover by military coup was not permitted, what principle of international law would you like to invoke to render Turkey's intervention in aid of the minority Turkish population illegitimate? Same one that makes the US intervention in Korea illegitimate? Oops. Same problem for you. That was authorized by the UNSC. Back to the issue of legality under the UN Charter, something you don't recognize because you don't think that state actors that are members of the UN are consistent enough. Then you seem to object to a resolution that does not allow all Greek Cypriots to return to their former homes. That Turkey, the Turkish Cypriots, the UN, the UK, and the US approve of the plan doesn't move you, so let's just skip over that. I assume then that you would object to any plan that does not allow the Palestinians all to return to former homes west of the Green Line? But, of course you do object to Palestinian right of return, or am I misreading you? Or is it only the compensation for those who cannot return that disturbs you? And based on what principle, or is it no principle, do you support a right of return for Greek Cypriots but not Palestinians? The Universal Declaration of Human Rights says anyone may leave his or her country and return (even if we agree for the sake of discussion that this does not apply to descendants). Doesn't matter why they left. They may have felt threatened. They may have been threatened. Maybe they went on a holiday. Doesn't actually matter. I think you are kicking an "own goal" here. And what about the Turks settled in Cyprus? Do you demand that they be repatriated to Turkey? What then for the Israeli settlers? Should they be repatriated to Israel? Or, like Israel, do you demand that some part of Cyprus with Turks and Turkish Cypriots in the majority be annexed to Turkey? Care to share any opinions of the secession of various provinces from Yugoslavia with the aid of the EU and the US Do you approve or disapprove? Please explain. Is it a question of which side was violating (or the worse violator of) the human rights of the other? Right now it is Israel violating the human rights of the Palestinians. How do you account for that in the analogy game? Or is the analogy game limited to Cyprus only? I think you need to get your story straight if you want to play the analogy game.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 2:46pm

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As for "Turks who have NO previous connection with Cyprus," I do recall that Cyprus was long a part of the Ottoman Turkish Empire. More than 20,000 Turkish Cypriots left for Turkey at the time of the British annexation. Most of the periodic communal fighting was initiated by Greek Cypriots (of course, they were in the majority) and I believe that, overall, a considerably larger share of the Turkish Cypriot population was displaced or killed. Classic majority on minority violence. But, what the heck, they're Moslems. Who gives a shit, right? On the other hand, I am sure that all of the Jews now living in the West Bank had "a previous connection." Biblical. Turkey, by the way, was not merely invading as "a foreign state by a FOREIGN GOVERNMENTAL ARMY." It was one of two legal "guarantor powers" under the acts establishing an independent Cyprus in the first place. When Greece sought forcibly to absorb Cyprus, what do you suppose the Turkish "guarantor power" was entitled to do? Guarantee, I should think. Like I said, you need to get your story straight if you are going to play the analogy game.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 3:02pm

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Roid writes: "Turkey, the Turkish Cypriots [WHO??--that means, mostly, the Turkish colonists!], the UN and the UK and the US approve the Annan Plan." Yes: and this only shows up the nature of the double-standard applied in the Israel-Palestinian case all the more starkly. The issue, again, is those stern hanging judges in the Israel-Palestine issue are themselves covered in blood. The issue is, exactly, double-standards. Gunter Grass will show he is not guilty of the application of double-standards to Jews seeking to defend themselves, but rather he is applying at least minimally similar standards of behavior to everyone, when he publishes a bitter poem attacking Islamism for its genocidal ideology, as exemplified not by a hypothetical attack on someone but by the actual Toulouse massacre of actual Jewish children. How about we make a bet, Roid? You pay me a dollar for every week that Grass doesn't publish such a poem condemning Toulouse. I'll pay you a dollar a week every week after he publishes it. You know what? I'm not rushing to take money out of my bank account.

- ProfEthan

April 11, 2012 at 3:05pm

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P.S. Thanks, Mahalat. Ethan

- ProfEthan

April 11, 2012 at 3:06pm

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Wow the mediocre is long and longer. Reminds me of the woman Vietnamese that sells hoagies, she can talk for hours, her Chinese husband doesn't say a word. And the uncle that sold everything and moved to Israel in1949 to escape his father in law. Lost everything and was rescued by my father in law. The uncle is now 94, and has hated Israel ever since for his own misfortunes. The failed mediocrity must have the same experience. BTW that uncle can talk for hours and hours.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 11, 2012 at 3:06pm

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But to mimic the Galicianer, what have standards anything to do with this discussion . What has the truth anything to do with this discussion. Just let me expand another few hundred words. the legality of liberated territories, internationally speaking. And Netanyahu is also funny looking. And Israel is not as nice as you rightist claim it is. Actually keeps committing crimes that are only in my delusional mind. I kid you not.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 11, 2012 at 3:22pm

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Oops. Forgot some other nice analogies lying around: 1. A rightwing Israeli favorite: "You started the war. You lost. Get over it." Point Turkish Cypriots. 2. "We have the more powerful army. We're here. Get over it." Point Turkey. 3. "Two states for two peoples." Point Turkish Cypriots and taksim. 4. Protecting the rights of the local ethnic minority. Point Turkish Cypriots. Let me repeat, these analogies between conflicts are pointless. They are a distraction from what is just and what is achievable in particular situations, each of which is unique in many if not most respects, including the extent of the interests of outside forces.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 3:26pm

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It is malahat not mahalat. But you are good. Way superior to the failed mediocre. A liar will fall sooner than a one legged person.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 11, 2012 at 3:26pm

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I'll make you a different bet. $1 per week for every week that Benjamin Netanyahu does not enforce Israeli law against the settlers. The winner based on whether Grass does what you think impossible first or Netanyahu does what I think is impossible first. I'm counting my money now. Of course, what Grass says must be considered of vastly more importance than what Netanyahu, a head of state, does to a subject population, don't you think? All of this self-righteousness is pretty tedious. Grass is not responsible for what Israel does or does not do. Israel is. It does not matter who says what. What matters is whether or not it is true. Israel's defenders resort to attacks on the character of critics and attempts to divert attention to other wrongs elsewhere because even they don't seem to think they have any convincing arguments on the merits. That speaks volumes. It is the very reason why attacking Grass as a Nazi will serve only to enhance his credibility on all of his claims, be they right or wrong. The attacks on him in lieu of responses to what he claims reveal Israel's moral nakedness.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 3:33pm

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Isn't it yet time for lunch in the insane asylum? Why are the inmates still out and about?

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 3:37pm

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Personally, I think that if Grass had told the story of his service in the Waffen SS, his credibility would have been enhanced. I don't know why he hid it. Shame? Fear? What difference does it make? Apparently his unit functioned as a regular Panzer division, separate from the regular army only because of Hitler's desire for mutually antagonistic military forces that he, like many dictators, imagined would protect him from a coup. Grass was a teenaged, conscripted soldier, not a concentration camp guard.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 3:44pm

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Here's what the moron, Netanyahu, might have said: "It is reported today that the distinguished German writer and Nobel laureate, Günter Grass, has written a poem about the approach of conflict between Israel and Iran. We disagree with Mr. Grass's analysis, but we welcome the fact that his celebrity is bringing the attention of the world to this problem. Iran is currently subject to UN Security Council sanctions for its illegal program of nuclear development and lack of cooperation with inspections. The president of Iran, Mr. Ahmadinejad, has repeatedly made public threats against the State of Israel. We must take these very seriously. At the same time, contrary to the claim in Mr. Grass's poem, Israel wishes no harm upon anyone in Iran. We do not threaten Iran. We wish the ancient people of Iran peace and security and expect the same for ourselves, free of threat. We earnestly look forward to the day when the combined efforts of world powers and the UN Security Council succeed in gaining Iran's cooperation with international arms control efforts and treaties. I wish to extend to Mr. Grass my personal invitation to come to Israel. We will do our best to present him with the facts as we know them in the hope that his works in the future will correctly reflect the realities of the situation and thereby contribute to the maintenance of peace."

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 3:58pm

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"Noga, nowhere did I say that people shouldn't make waves. I'm all for making waves. ... What I have a problem with is the kind of wave-making that causes absolute and irreversible judgements to be made that can then become problematic in themselves because the discussion then becomes a kind of "are you on my side or are you evil?" trap. The kind of thing that doesn't just condemn a writer's present day action on its merits but seeks to vacuum his entire career backwards through the filter of a current controversy." I must have misunderstood what you meant by "It seems to me that Grass can be condemned in every which way for his recent tirade without overdoing it by rushing energetically to discover that his novels were always no good or that he was a secret Nazi sympathizer all his life or some such nonsense. That kind of stuff will always backfire." Perhaps you could provide some quotes that could bear out your claim that what is being said here about Grass is that "his novels were always no good or that he was a secret Nazi sympathizer all his life ". Aren't you getting carried away by your fear for Grass's literary reputation by over-the-top suspicions? As for me, I already said and I meant it, that anything I will happen to read from Gunter Grass from now on will be seen through the filter of this "poem". And that I will no longer feel it necessary to dismiss his teenage political choices by claiming that a teenager's moral ethos is not yet fully formed. If anything, it works the other way. He was the beneficiary of a great deal of reasonable doubt and good will from his Jewish critics. This poem, which is more than just "anti-Israelism" (what's that anyway?) may have settled that dispute about him, once and for all.

- noga1

April 11, 2012 at 4:29pm

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Noga, I think in some ways you're actually saying what you are asking me for evidence to bear out. I'm confused because if that's not what you are doing, what are you doing when you say "anything I happen to read . . . will be seen through the filter of this 'poem'"? Just to be clear, I'm not saying that it's a simple matter of "authors get a pass" or that one should pull punches now just because it's Mr Nobel Prize Grass. I am saying that I am very uneasy about reading Grass's entire body of work over 50 years through such a filter. As malahat says above, one can potentially separate the two, although one may not want to. The accusation of hypocrisy on Grass's part is completely justified -- his eagerly adopted position as poetic truth-teller of the nation is undermined by the 2006 revelations (although apparently the Waffen SS detail can be read clearly on his registration card in the Wehrmacht registry in Berlin -- an open archive that anyone could have looked at over the decades). To take a vaguely related example, in some respects -- for me at least -- Ezra Pound is a much worse offender than Grass because (a) he was an adult when he made his choices, (a) he committed treason to boot, and (c) he never looked back critically or expressed the slightest regret for his antisemitic racism or his fascist/Nazi loyalties. But that doesn't stop me reading/teaching "Hugh Selwyn Mauberly" Should it? The case is a little different, agreed, as HSM was written many years before Pound became a fascist admirer, but not that much: one can see some of the attitudes and perspectives in that poem that feed into a paranoid cultural conservatism, if nothing worse.

- ironyroad

April 11, 2012 at 5:53pm

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" Grass was a teenaged, conscripted soldier, not a concentration camp guard." Only because the war ended before he could be sent to guard the remaining few Jews left alive. The intellectual left has decided to give Grass a pass and true to form Roid follows suit. Can's accuse him of having an independent mind.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 6:42pm

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If the intellectual right cannot tell lies to try and make a case, it can never be satisfied. The truth, the facts of what actually did and did not occur, simply will not do. What Grass actually did in the war is not important, indeed it is trivial. What he would have done had the war gone on long enough is what matters. And, needless to say, the intellectual right knows exactly what that is, the choices one such as Grass would have faced and just what he would have done when confronted with them. They are like gods seeing into the past, the future, and all the alternative universes that never existed. And they know. I have no doubt that these beings of the highest moral fiber, these gods, if drafted into the German army in 1944 at age 16 or 17 and ordered to serve in a Panzer brigade would have lined up to be shot rather than serve, or gone underground, or attacked a commander with their bare hands before being hung with piano wire. Something heroic and godlike.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 7:00pm

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Pound is a good example, ironyroad. Here is how I see him: His lurid antisemitism was kept separate from his poetic endeavours, in letters and articles. And additionally, I remember reading somewhere that he did recant. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1986/oct/09/an-exchange-on-ezra-pound/?pagination=false "It was only a number of years after his release from the insane asylum—on October 28, 1967, in the restaurant of the Pensione Cici in Venice—that Pound said to me, Allen Ginsberg, and Peter Russell “The worst mistake I made was that stupid, suburban prejudice of anti-Semitism.” I published an account of this conversation in The Evergreen Review the following year, later in the paper-back edition of my book Ezra Pound, a Close-Up. The audience was not a bit “charmed,” as Kazin sarcastically writes—I wasn’t, anyhow. I myself felt shocked—the light of the truth, as Pound had finally recognized it, being dazzlingly sudden. " ___________ Grass turned his poetry, and relied on his reputation as an author and poet (thus tainting an entire oeuvre) into a tool for antisemitic incitement. He got a free ride up until now, due to reasonable doubt. Now he provided proof that his artistic creation and his living thoughts come from the same source. You may go on admiring his works; you are not the target of his blood libel no matter how sympathetic you think you are to Jewish hurts. I cannot. If he were to demonstrate that he understands fully the harm he has committed in his poetic slander I may reconsider my attitude. Otherwise, to me he is no longer useful, either as a poet or an author or a human being. I do not possess your largeness of forgiving spirit. And anyway, for forgiveness, according to Jewish ethical rules, the transgressor needs to demonstrate contrition. This has not happened.

- noga1

April 11, 2012 at 7:04pm

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I know, Irony, however.... If Grass had said something like 'Israel is right to fear Iranian intentions, still it should allow the US and other countries to see what they can accomplish through sanctions before they try to disable the nuclear program on their own' I might have agreed or disagreed but I wouldn't have had any problem with his comment. But to lie about Israel's intentions and to state that it was "Israel that was looking to annihilate Iran" and not the other way around argues that the man is either senile or that he still harbors some of the Juden hass he grew up with. That many liberal leftists in Germany and elsewhere came to his defense means that they share his views at some level. I know that talking about it isn't going to change many minds but one doesn't speak the truth because it will be accepted, one says what is so because it is so and because one wishes to counter blatant lies.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 7:18pm

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roidubouloi "If the intellectual right cannot tell lies to try and make a case, it can never be satisfied." Falling back on easy labels again. I am not either right or left when it comes to thinking about intellectual issues. On economic matter I don't mind being called a leftist.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 7:22pm

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I am sure Grass is weeping at his expulsion by noga from the company of worthies. Doubtless he will write to her soon, confess his error, and ask for her forgiveness. Since measuring and cataloging crimes and lining them up in order has become such a favorite pastime of the Jewish right (so that the list of worse things than whatever Israel may do on any given day is always handy), we can now say definitively that "antisemitic incitement" (which means and includes both any criticism of Israel and perforce any false criticism, as the need arises) is a much worse crime than the actual daily oppression of living human beings who are not Jewish, or even stoning them once in a while. After all, it is the thought that counts. Grass, for example, can now be held personally responsible for all violent acts against Jews, at least on the continent of Europe. Actual crimes committed by Jews against Moslems, not so important. What matters is whom we can blame for incitement of those crimes. And, of course, it is the Arabs themselves. They are responsible for any crimes committed against them.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 7:27pm

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Sorry, didn't mean to fall back on easy labels, not that you would do such a thing or even recognize when you are being lampooned. I should have said, "If arnon, who is neither left nor right when it comes to thinking about intellectual issues, cannot tell lies to try and make a case, he can never be satisfied."

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 7:29pm

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I get a very peculiar feeling whenever I read that comment of Pound's. It doesn't quite feel like recanting to me. On the contrary, it sounds very much as if he is regretting that he contaminated the purity of his love for Mussolini and Italian fascism with that ugly ol' "suburban prejudice." Also, like others I am puzzled by the term "suburban" here. Pound knew as well as anyone that antisemitism was pretty widespread in American life and was especially obvious in rural America and small towns as well as the cities and indeed could be found in Ivy League colleges where, in the early 20th century, they started introducing regional quotas to suppress the number of Jewish students from New York and the urban centers. "Suburban" is a way of saying that this kind of prejudice was cheap and superficial, and therefore it was a mistake to embrace it, not that it was malignant and hate-filled. He makes it sound like a matter of taste. To express it as Pound does is to imply that he mistakenly took on something that was foreign to his background, and I do no believe that to be the case: rather, the hoarded and nurtured something that was there in the middle-class American culture of his formative years -- as it was for Hemingway too. Only Pound brought into the center of his thinking, however. It may seem that I'm being harder on Pound than on Grass -- but Kazin's comment (quoted in the article) that he was uninterested in the obliteration of fellow writers artists seems to me to hit close to the target. It wasn't so much Pound's antisemitism that was the real issue, it was his open and energetic support for European fascism in the years of its most aggressive expansion.

- ironyroad

April 11, 2012 at 7:31pm

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arnon -- nobody has mentioned this except you, but I'm wondering if the senility point isn't getting pretty close to the reality? Also, what really astonishes me -- I said this earlier -- is that the Süddeutsche Zeitung editorial people let this through apparently without demur. I mean, it's meant to be a serious paper in a country that still takes newspapers seriously. That would mean a sort of dark folie-a-deux with senility on one side and a latent Judenhass on the other.

- ironyroad

April 11, 2012 at 7:36pm

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Sorry, multiple typos above -- it should read: To express it as Pound does is to imply that he mistakenly took on something that was foreign to his background, and I do not believe that to be the case: rather, he hoarded and nurtured something that was there in the middle-class American culture of his formative years -- as it was for Hemingway too. Only Pound brought it into the center of his thinking, however.

- ironyroad

April 11, 2012 at 7:38pm

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"That would mean a sort of dark folie-a-deux with senility on one side and a latent Judenhass on the other." I can accept that, Irony. From another point of view it seems to me that German intellectuals are jumping at the bit from the feeling of being constrained by their history to keep from criticizing Israel. They don't feel like free thinkers and are trying to find way of getting around it. In reality though it's the "free intellectuals of other European countries who are following fashion instead of thinking for themselves. Go tell that though to someone who can't wait to join the crowd and show himself to be part of the 'her of independent minds."

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 8:05pm

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Here, malahat, is what wikipedia says: "Grass attended the Danzig Gymnasium Conradinum. In 1943 he became a Luftwaffenhelfer, then he was drafted into the Reichsarbeitsdienst. In November 1944, shortly after his seventeenth birthday, he volunteered for submarine service with the Kriegsmarine, "to get out of the confinement he felt as a teenager in his parents' house" which he considered stuffy Catholic lower middle class.[8][9] However, he was not accepted by the Navy and instead was drafted into the 10th SS Panzer Division Frundsberg, only to find out that it was the Waffen SS when he arrived.[10][11] With the Panzer Division he saw active combat from February 1945 until he was wounded on 20 April 1945, captured in Marienbad and sent to an American prisoner-of-war camp." So, do you really think at that point in the war that the German military was accepting polite requests for transfer to other assignments? And why would Grass have requested transfer from a Panzer division? Because it was called Waffen SS? So what? But for Hitler's division of his armed forces into competing armies under distinct commands, in derogation of good military order but in response to his own insanity, it would have been a regular armored division. Should Grass have requested transfer because he didn't like the associations with the name? Do we have any idea what he even knew about the rest of the Waffen SS? He was drafted and served in a regular armored division in regular combat against Allied forces. If someone wants to make a case out of that, they should go ahead. But the attempt to make his military service into something lurid is, frankly, ridiculous.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 8:11pm

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I should have said "what he knew about the rest of the SS," because the Waffen SS was defined to be the regular combat arm of the SS. It was an "elite combat unit" of the wehrmacht. In its operations, it had no more to do with the rest of the SS than did the regular German army. It is as if Grass were drafted as an army Rangers rather than into the regular infantry. And so?

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 8:20pm

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Wikipedia articles tend to be partisan. They are trustworthy when the writers are dispassionate about their subject which is seldom the case when it comes to writers and poets of all kinds. Notice how quickly his attack on Israel was added to the article as if it were ancient history. Any German born in 1927 spent his formative years under a Nazi regime and must have been influenced in some way by their ideologies. Jurgen Habermas who is part of the same generation spent his whole life trying to understand the far reaching influence of a totalitarian regime and proposed a way to analyze and to counter it.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 8:22pm

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The Luftwaffenhelfer were students who served as paramilitary. When he was of age, he volunteered for the navy, was rejected, and was drafted into an armored division within the Waffen SS. So, why do you think that it made any sense for him to seek a transfer or that he would have received it? Should he have said, "I don't want to serve in a unit in the Waffen SS because I hear that other units of the SS are doing terrible things to Jews." And if Hitler hadn't created all these different labels but there were still Death's Head units within the army, running extermination camps, and combat units in ordinary combat, what then? Are you seriously trying to assert that the nature of Grass's service turns on Hitler's table of organization?

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 8:26pm

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"Jurgen Habermas who is part of the same generation spent his whole life trying to understand the far reaching influence of a totalitarian regime and proposed a way to analyze and to counter it." I'd like to read about it. Can you point me to a book or an article?

- noga1

April 11, 2012 at 8:27pm

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Yeah, I read that already. I still don't see your point. The entire Nazi regime was a criminal organization. What does that say about Grass's service in ordinary combat? It does not appear that his unit was accused of any war crimes. It does not appear that he was personally involved in any war crimes. He is somehow more or less culpable because of the place of his unit in Hitler's table of organization? That makes no sense at all.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 8:33pm

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Gosh, Noga I wouldn't know where to begin. Habermas has written dozens of books and hundred of articles. Perhaps an accessible introduction would be this: "The Philosophical Discourse of Modernity: Twelve Lectures" http://www.amazon.com/The-Philosophical-Discourse-Modernity-Contemporary/dp/0262581027/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1334190605&sr=8-16

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 8:33pm

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Here is a more advanced work: "Moral Consciousness and Communicative Action: Moral Conciousness and Communicative Action" http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Consciousness-Communicative-Action-Conciousness/dp/0262581183/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1334190605&sr=8-15 I don't necessarily agree with his theory but he did spend his life thinking about the disastrous end traditional European history led to.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 8:36pm

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roidubouloi "Yeah, I read that already. I still don't see your point. The entire Nazi regime was a criminal organization. What does that say about Grass's service in ordinary combat? It does not appear that his unit was accused of any war crimes. It does not appear that he was personally involved in any war crimes. He is somehow more or less culpable because of the place of his unit in Hitler's table of organization? That makes no sense at all." Very, very few German army units didn't in some way aid the "final solution to the Jewish question." You are really out of your depth here, Roid.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 8:44pm

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bernardhenri-levy/gunter-grass-israel-poem_b_1417160.html "Grass's own past. What he admitted six years ago, when he told of joining a Waffen SS unit at 17. How can one not think of it today? How can one fail to make the connection between the two sequences? Between this and that, between the Burgrave social democrat confessing that he learned the ropes under the Nazis and the scoundrel who declares today, like anyone else who is nostalgic for a fascism that has become taboo, that he can no longer remain silent, that what he is saying "must" be said, that the Germans are "already sufficiently burdened" (one wonders with what) without becoming, what's more, "complicit" in the present and future "crimes" of Israel. Isn't the connexion, unfortunately, patently obvious?"

- noga1

April 11, 2012 at 8:46pm

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I still don't see your point. Yes, the "organization" was singled out as a criminal organization because the SS was responsible for most of the war crimes. But in Hitler's Byzantine system of organization, there were regular combat units that were the Waffen SS. Do you have information that he wasn't drafted (as the article says occurred after 1943)? Do you have information that he served in a unit that was other than a regular combat unit? A Panzer division was a division of tanks. Although initially Waffen-SS were denied rights afforded regular veterans, ultimately they gained them by arguing that they were combat units no different than regular wehrmacht units. I really think you are getting confused by the bizarre nature of Hitler's military organization. It has often been the case in dictatorship that the military is divided in command as a means of preventing coup or insurrection. This goes all the way back to Rome.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 8:46pm

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"I think it's wholly inappropriate to compare the Waffen-SS to US Rangers." I missed this. If Roid really said this he is more ignorant that I though about history. All he seems to know is Legal and economic theory which swallowed whole and can vomit at great length when he is trying to impress people. There is seldom any socio-historical context to what he writes.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 8:47pm

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Says arnon: "Very, very few German army units didn't in some way aid the "final solution to the Jewish question." You are really out of your depth here, Roid." No arnon, you are out of your depth, or have not read much of the history of WWII, or didn't understand what you read. If you wish to argue that service in a tank corps in the wehrmacht implicates Grass in war crimes, go right ahead. But if you are hanging your hat on the fact that the unit was designated to belong to the Waffen SS, you don't know what you are talking about.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 8:50pm

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Thanks, arnon1.

- noga1

April 11, 2012 at 8:50pm

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"Although initially Waffen-SS were denied rights afforded regular veterans, ultimately they gained them by arguing that they were combat units no different than regular wehrmacht units." Argued where? Gained where? In German courts. In any case arguing that they "were combat units no different than regular wehrmacht units" doesn't speak well of the regular army, does it?

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 8:51pm

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Look what is going on here, Roid who accuses settlers of being like Nazis is trying to minimize the role of ordinary German soldiers in the Shoah This is typical of people who hobnob (or so he says) with people of wealth and status these days.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 8:54pm

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Malahat, the available history says he volunteered for the navy, was rejected, then drafted into a Waffen SS Panzer division. Your speculation that he was not in fact drafted, or that he could have been undrafted, is speculation in the air. Young teenagers were used for AA duty, freeing older teenagers and men for service at the front. By the end of the war, they were sending even kids to the front, so desperate were they for soldiers. When Grass was 17, he was drafted and went to the front as a member of a tank division. He could not have been anything more than a ranker. As with arnon, if you want to argue that his actual service as a soldier in a tank unit implicates him, go ahead. But by attempting to add lurid detail that is at odds with reality, you strongly suggest that you don't think that argument carries much weight. There is no reason to embellish his actual service with speculation and claims at odds with the facts.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 8:58pm

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As usual Henri-Levi got it right: This (Gass') declaration filled the fanatics who reign in Tehran with pleasure, so much so that, through the intermediary of their Minister of Culture, Javad Shamaghdari, they could not wait to praise the "humanity" and the "spirit of responsibility" of the author of The Tin Drum. It was the object of ecstatic comments in Germany and throughout the world, among all the Pavlovian cretins who confuse the refusal of the politically correct with the right to let loose and, in so doing, liberate the stench of the most pestilential of thoughts. It was the occasion for the habitual and boring debate about the "mystery of the great writer capable of being a coward or a scoundrel" (Céline, Ezra Pound) or, worse still, about the "moral indignity, or the lie, that must never be literary arguments" (in consideration of which one permits throngs of sub-Célines or poor man's Pounds to wallow in abjection)...." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bernardhenri-levy/gunter-grass-israel-poem_b_1417160.html

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 8:58pm

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" But by attempting to add lurid detail that is at odds with reality, you strongly suggest that you don't think that argument carries much weight. There is no reason to embellish his actual service with speculation and claims at odds with the facts." Reality? What reality? Internet reality, wikipedia reality. This isn't reality it's special pleading of the most abject kind.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 9:00pm

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Another lying smear from the scumbag arnon. Listen you putz, I have said nothing whatever about whether and how ordinary soldiers in the German army are or are not implicated in the Holocaust. What I have said is that you should make your argument, if you have one, based on the facts of the man's war service as they are known and not embellish them with lurid non-facts. But you just cannot help yourself, can you? Once you, with your godlike powers, have determined what this man would have done had the war gone on longer, you are going to manufacture whatever lies you think you need in order to make the smear stick. And when and where have I ever said that Israeli settlers are "being like Nazis?" More shit you just made up. That's what is so disgraceful about the bunch of you creeps. Once you have decided to attempt to discredit someone, you will make up any lie that you think will serve that purpose. Fuck you asshole.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 9:03pm

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Yes, every Jew on the West Bank no matter their age is guilty of war crimes, and subject to execution. Now even Jewish children in French schools are fair game, and their murders can be charged to the Israeli government but German soldiers in the Nazi army where as innocent as the German courts said after the war. And people wonder why most Israelis don't trust the crazy ignorant leftists in their midst.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 9:06pm

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The perfect confession from arnon: "Reality? What reality?" Like the lying scumbag you are, if you cannot find facts that will serve your malign purposes, you will just make them up. For you goons, there is no truth, there are no lies. There are only useful lies and useless lies.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 9:06pm

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Here we go, Roid loses and argument and tries to get even by misquotes and insults. Perfect example of what he is about. There is very little that is real on the internet and it's information has to be supplemented by reading real books, by documentary studies and by common sense. Roid is deficient in all these areas.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 9:09pm

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GO ahead and insult away. The few people here know what I said and what you said and aren't as gullible as you are.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 9:10pm

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"I think, given the circumstances, there's reason to believe it wasn't as straightforward as "being drafted"." If you think so, you have given no reason for your belief other than that you believe it. After 1943, men were drafted into the Waffen SS. It is the reason why, after the war, the draftees were immediately accorded the same privileges as veterans of the regular wehrmacht even though the SS as a whole was not. All the sources I can find say the same thing. So, while I have no special information, I am relying on what is publicly available. You have nothing but your own speculation. All I have suggested is that there is no basis to go beyond the facts such as they are known with hints that there is something more lurid that we do not know. You have nothing to hang that on.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 9:16pm

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Oy, Roid factoids.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 9:19pm

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Could a Roid ever engage someone like Henri-Levy's article? I doubt it.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 9:20pm

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All I can say over the internet is that you are a lying sack of shit, arnon. What you said here, you piece of garbage, is that I have identified settlers with Nazis. That is a complete fabrication invented by you. Who is gullible enough to belief the filth that comes out of your mouth, I cannot say. But the fact that you resort to baldfaced lying is all the confession one needs that you know yourself to be an incompetent. As for your morality? Feh!

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 9:22pm

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No retreat for you, arnon, into bullshit about some other article that I have said nothing about. You are spewing fllthy lies and you are a scumbag. The perfect confession from arnon: "Reality? What reality?" Like the lying scumbag you are, if you cannot find facts that will serve your malign purposes, you will just make them up. For you goons, there is no truth, there are no lies. There are only useful lies and useless lies.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 9:24pm

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Sorry, malahat. What is published in multiple places says he was drafted into a regular combat unit of the Waffen SS. Your speculation that he could have remained in an anti-aircraft unit is a pure invention. I don't claim that the published reports are true or not. Obviously, I have no way of knowing. But it is unfair to embellish them based on nothing at all. That is what you are doing.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 9:27pm

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roidubouloi "All I can say over the internet is that you are a lying sack of shit, arnon. What you said here, you piece of garbage, is that I have identified settlers with Nazis. That is a complete fabrication invented by you." He has lost it, again. I hope someone has saved Roid's choice comments about settler being legitimate targets and that they were all guilty under the some geneva article of other.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 9:27pm

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roidubouloi "Sorry, malahat. What is published in multiple places..." On the internet. ON the internet.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 9:28pm

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This is what the NY Times says about it: "But in 2006 the author stunned Germany and the world by confessing that he had a buried past. In his autobiography '‘Peeling the Onion,’' he revealed that he had been drafted into the Waffen SS in the final months of World War II. It was an admission for which he was widely condemned because he had kept his Nazi service a secret for more than 60 years while urging other Germans to confront their painful histories." http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/gunter_grass/index.html They quote him as saying that "he was drafted."

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 9:31pm

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It is quite remarkable that so many of the defenders of Israel here constantly feel the need to invent facts about the world or about other posters or manufacture things that they falsely attribute to other posters in order to make a case in defense of Israel. Noga, arnon, NR106646, and others all are constant practitioners of this sort of dirty propaganda trick How is it that seemingly no one here will defend Israel's position without inventing falsehoods?

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 9:32pm

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Has anyone seen this? "Nobel Prize-winning author Gunter Grass sues Random House over claim in new biography by Michael Jurgs that he volunteered to serve in Nazi Waffen SS unit as teenager; Grass, in his autobiography Peeling the Onion, said he was drafted in final months of World War II" http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C01E2DD143FF937A15752C1A9619C8B63&ref=guntergrass How did the court case end? Was it settled out of court?

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 9:32pm

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"He revealed that he had been drafted into the Waffen SS in the final months of World War II. It was an admission for which he was widely condemned because he had kept his Nazi service a secret for more than 60 years while urging other Germans to confront their painful histories." Then condemn him for keeping his military service a secret if you like. Of condemn him for serving in a tank division. But don't invent lies about his military service

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 9:35pm

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roidubouloi "It is quite remarkable that so many of the defenders of Israel here constantly feel the need to invent facts about the world or about other posters or manufacture things that they falsely attribute to other posters in order to make a case in defense of Israel. Noga, arnon, NR106646, and others all are constant practitioners of this sort of dirty propaganda trick" Bullshit, I don't invent facts. I am against Israelis settling on the West Bank but don't d see them as "legitimate targets of Palestinian and Arabs assassins." And I certainly don't see Jewish children or adults as legitimate targets of Arabs and European antisemites.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 9:35pm

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I condemn him for being a Tratuffe as Henri-Levy said. I also condemn him for seeing Israel as a "danger to world" peace but not Iran or Russia, (Chechnya) or China, (Tibet0 or North Korea, or Pakistan, etc.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 9:38pm

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What I think is being ignored here is that patriotic feelings were and are the norm and if you are 17 and want some adventure and you feel your country needs you, then you can make decisions like Grass did. I think it's interesting that his first desire was for the submarine service -- that was not associated with the Eastern Front, was not associated with the Waffen SS or the Party (the navy was probably the least NSDAP influenced service), but it WAS associated with danger and courage. I think we make a big mistake in underestimating how well the Nazis succeeded in taking legitimate feelings of identity and loyalty and utilizing them in a genocidal enterprise. Obviously it's insulting and perverse to directly compare the Waffen SS with the US Army Rangers but it's not insulting or perverse to compare the desires that young guys might have in two radically different situations but situations that are older than either the United States or Nazi Germany -- that go back to very basic responses to challenge and calls to duty. It's a big step at the age of 17 to decide that your country is an evil empire, so to speak, and unless you have a personal experience of e.g. a family member being a victim of the system, you are quite likely to accept the standard line even if you affect a cynical cocksureness. Young people have a passion to belong and to prove themselves. Again, I'm not offering a defense for or justification of his current behavior and malicious rhetoric. I'm just saying that tiny movements and random chances often separate one fate from another.

- ironyroad

April 11, 2012 at 9:53pm

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You invented several lies right here. Or do you want to document your claim that I have ever identified settlers with Nazis or said anything "minimizing the role of ordinary soldiers in the Shoah" or indeed anything whatsoever about the role of ordinary soldiers in the Shoah? And just who is it who claims to see Israeli settlers as "legitimate tragets of Palestinians and Arab assassins?" Or do you just sort of make that up too as a means of making yourself appear virtuous? Any other unidentified horrific opinions you would like to deplore for the crowd? Go ahead, asshole. Either back up these attributions or admit that you are a liar. Or maybe you should just allow that you got excited and carried away with the facts. Gee, if that's the case, maybe Günter Grass just got excited and carried away with the facts. Maybe, or maybe not.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 9:56pm

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Reminds you of someone? http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.ca/2012/04/mondoweiss-vipers-nest-of-antisemites.html "In order to collect all that dirt they've got to pass by the occasional positive story too, but these never get linked to or even alluded too unless to demonstrate how yet another journalist has succumbed to the threat of Zionist censorship. The result is a depiction of reality which has at best a glancing relationship with the real world, but these folks aren't interested in the real world. In their world, Zionists are easily the worst group of humans, they purportedly hate all Palestinians, they enforce the most cruel policies possibly on them, they steal from-, degrade and kill Palestinians, on a daily basis. You read Mondoweiss regularly and the force of hatred towards Zionists becomes overpowering: no normal decent person could have anything but the deepest contempt for such a gang of deceitful violent criminals. As a commentor named "American" recently wrote: The thing about the zionist is they attack even those who help them. They turned on England, calling it “worse than Hitler’ because England tried to uphold the immigration quotas agreed to. They demonize the UN that created their state for them. Everyone, without exception, who has ever had anything to do them has regretted it….the US will too in the end. They are vipers who need to be decapitated."

- noga1

April 11, 2012 at 10:06pm

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Grass apparently volunteered for the navy a year or two prior to being drafted. He was refused, perhaps because he was too young. Later on he was drafted. He may have felt patriotic about it. Maybe he didn't. The Waffen SS Hitler's Elite Guard at War, 1939–1945 George H. Stein Cornell University Press Paperback - $19.95 Description Reviews Detailed info This landmark study, first published by Cornell University Press in 1966, shows how Hitler's elite army grew from a praetorian guard of barely 28,000 men at the beginning of the Second World War to a combat-hardened army of more than 500,000 in 1945. George H. Stein examines in detail the structure and organization of the Waffen SS and describes the rigid personnel selection and intensive physical, military, and ideological training that helped to create the tough and dedicated cadre around which the larger force of the later war years was built.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 10:07pm

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1, Roid is ignorant of the nature of the Wehrmacht, let alone the Waffen SS. On this he should read, e.g., Omer Bartov, The Eastern Front, 1941-1945: German Troops and the Barbarization of Warfare. Even the "ordinary Wehrmacht" units were guilty of horrendous war-crimes in the East, and the Waffen SS even more. These were not ordinary soldiers. No, Grass wasn't a concentration-camp guard but there was a permeable boundary between such people and the Waffen SS; but he was brought up his entire early life until age 17 under Nazi propaganda, and one of the most famous Waffen SS units was the 3rd SS Panzer Division "Totenkopf" (Death's-Head), which was initially formed from concentration-camp guards. I agree that it is indeed striking that someone who is comfortable calling Westbank settlers "Nazis" nevertheless protests against being overly judgmental of a person who actually served in the Waffen SS and now has resurrected medieval anti-semitic tropes in a public poem. For an example of the kind of person who commanded Gunter Grass's division, the 10th SS Panzer Division, look up SS Gruppenfuhrer Karl Fischer von Treuenfeld. 2. The Wikipedia article says he volunteered for the U-boats because he found his parent's Catholic lower-middle class house "confining". (a) U-boats mostly attacked civilian shipping. (b) He finds his parents' home "confining" so he volunteers for U-BOATS?? Think about it. 3. It is worth noting that Grass didn't reveal his SS background (2006) until, um, AFTER he had been awarded his Nobel Prize for Literature (1999). Just what would should we imagine would have happened to that Prize if he had been honest, and revealed his SS background beforehand?

- ProfEthan

April 11, 2012 at 10:10pm

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"However, after Stalingrad, Hitler took more extreme decisions. In January 1942, he authorised Himmler to create new Waffen-SS units. However, the manpower was simply not available and young native Germans were conscripted – despite the protests of parents and from the Wehrmacht. The original pedigree of the Himmler’s idea for the SS was being diluted – he wanted ideologically pure volunteers; those who were willing to fight and die for the cause. Now, the new units were being made up of conscripts. To go with this, Waffen-SS units were made up of men from Eastern Europe. They went completely in the face of Nazi racial purity but they were needed to fight the Partisans who were becoming more and more successful in the east. The sole qualification to join was a hatred of communism. The Waffen-SS was to include Croats, Albanians, Russians, Ukrainians, and Caucasians etc. Over 100,000 Ukrainians responded to Himmler’s call in April 1943." http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/waffen-ss.htm

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 10:14pm

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'And just who is it who claims to see Israeli settlers as "legitimate tragets of Palestinians and Arab assassins?" Or do you just sort of make that up too as a means of making yourself appear virtuous? Any other unidentified horrific opinions you would like to deplore for the crowd?" Let's remember that roi quoted Gideon Levy by way of sustaining his defense of Gunter Grass as a truth sayer. When informed of the fact that Levy is a sheretz who is quoted by an Israeli author as telling her he would drive 100 yards to save a settler, he provided an encomium on Levy by the British Alan Hart who calls all israelis except for Levy "the New Nazis". When roi was informed that he was relying on very obscene thinkers for his advocacy of Grass, or for his attacks on Israelis, he simply refused to accept that this was the case. Maybe he did not utter the words himself but by quoting them and defending their authors he certainly signaled that he was in agreement with their primary assumptions and positions. If, as he claims now, he does not maintain that "Israeli settlers [are] "legitimate tragets of Palestinians and Arab assassins" and that he does not identify Settlers with Nazis then he should make it clear that he made a mistake in quoting these two writers and relying on their moral judgments for his arguments here.

- noga1

April 11, 2012 at 10:18pm

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"I agree that it is indeed striking that someone who is comfortable calling Westbank settlers "Nazis" nevertheless protests against being overly judgmental of a person who actually served in the Waffen SS and now has resurrected medieval anti-semitic tropes in a public poem." Well, well, well, ProfEthan. It seems that you are fucking scumbag liar too. Would you care to document your claim that I have called settlers "Nazis?" Astonishing. Not one of all of you self-righteous idiots can manage to very long without resort to incredible lies and smears. I find it striking that everyone here who excoriates Grass, or anyone who does not join in doing so, cannot manage without resort to such filth. What a wretched lot of unctuous hypocrites.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 10:21pm

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quoted by an Israeli author as telling her he would NOT drive 100 yards to save a settler,

- noga1

April 11, 2012 at 10:22pm

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And of course here comes the daughter of Goebbels herself with this: "When roi was informed that he was relying on very obscene thinkers for his advocacy of Grass, or for his attacks on Israelis, he simply refused to accept that this was the case. Maybe he did not utter the words himself but by quoting them and defending their authors he certainly signaled that he was in agreement with their primary assumptions and positions. If, as he claims now, he does not maintain that "Israeli settlers [are] "legitimate tragets of Palestinians and Arab assassins" and that he does not identify Settlers with Nazis then he should make it clear that he made a mistake in quoting these two writers and relying on their moral judgments for his arguments here." This is the typical noga smear. If one refers to someone or quotes them for some purpose, it is taken as given that this constitutes "agreement with their primary assumptions and positions." I quoted Levy for his point that there is good reason to pay attention to what Grass says even though Levy concurs that Grass was hyperbolic, uttering falsehoods, in his claims. In noga's twisted mind, this is perverted into quoting Levy as authority for Grass's truth. The entire point of the quote of Levy was that Grass was not honest but that there was none-the-less important reason to pay attention to his claims (as opposed to just branding him an anti-Semite and Nazi which is sure to fail). I quoted Hart for the information that Levy is the son of two Holocaust survivors and the history that Irit Linur was hardly an objective journalist with regard to Levy, based on her very public excoriation of him, and should not be considered reliable as to what he supposedly said in private. Noga, with her typical smear tactics, then expands this into my concurrence with anything that either Hart or Levy have ever had to say. Meanwhile, noga herself has no problem exaggerating what it is that Levy purportedly said to Linur with her own embellishment that he would be indifferent to the murder of the Fogel children. On the one hand, the things these people say are supposed to be so awful that civilized people should pay no attention. Yet, apparently that are not considered awful enough without embellishment by the lot of you. Truly disgusting. No, I don't think anyone, including the settlers, and including the Arabs whom settlers have murdered, is a legitimate target of Palestinians and Arab assassins. Now, since you support the settlements, can we take that as a signal that you "are in agreement with the primary assumptions and positions" of the settlers, including "payback" violence, the stoning of schoolchildren, and any other atrocity that any of them may perpetrate? Do you consider that a legitimate inference? Can we infer that because there are settlers who are racist haters and assassins of Palestinians that you approve? If you are a supporter of the current government of Israel, can we infer that you approve of everything that Lieberman, a minister in that government, says? Just how far shall we extend the signal of our approval with primary assumptions and positions? What a lot of horseshit. The filth of a bunch of lying propagandists.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 10:41pm

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And no, I don't identify settlers with Nazis. But I identify you with Nazis, noga, because you are filthy liar who uses every disgusting propaganda trick, every sort of lie, perversion, inversion oft the truth, that they ever invented, and with great relish. You are a nightmare. Israel should be grateful that you hide out in Canada afraid to live in your own country. Pity Canada. Not one of you pieces of human garbage can sustain an argument without finally resorting to lies and smears. Putrid.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 10:50pm

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"I think we make a big mistake in underestimating how well the Nazis succeeded in taking legitimate feelings of identity and loyalty and utilizing them in a genocidal enterprise. Obviously it's insulting and perverse to directly compare the Waffen SS with the US Army Rangers but it's not insulting or perverse to compare the desires that young guys might have in two radically different situations but situations that are older than either the United States or Nazi Germany -- that go back to very basic responses to challenge and calls to duty." I can accept this, Irony. It's much more nuanced and better written than anything Roid posts..

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 10:55pm

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Perhaps in the future I shall always refer to "Noga, who advocates the stoning of Palestinian schoolchildren," and "Arnon, who approves of the murder of Palestinians," and "ProfEthan, who urges that a Moslem child somewhere be murdered in retaliation for any rocket that lands in Israel." I mean, what the hell. Why not just make up whatever lie I can think of about any of you, the more lurid the better? It is what the lot of you do.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 10:57pm

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Take issue with what you think is my lack of nuance all you want, arnon. You are still a filthy scumbag lying piece of shit. Nothing nuanced about the grotesque lies you invent, now is there?

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 10:59pm

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Let it be noted how roi demonizes the "settlers", not some marginals who are arrested and brought to trial for their violence, but ALL settlers, as practicing on a regular basis " "payback" violence, the stoning of schoolchildren, and any other atrocity ..." and that "there are settlers who are racist haters and assassins of Palestinians". By settlers, one assumes he means each and every Israeli Jew who lives beyond the sacred Green Line. That would include Jews who live in Jerusalem (both west and East), along the green line, on the Golan Heights, in the Jordan Valley, in Mevasseret Zion, on Zur Hadassah, etc etc.

- noga1

April 11, 2012 at 11:01pm

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"Even the "ordinary Wehrmacht" units were guilty of horrendous war-crimes in the East, and the Waffen SS even more. These were not ordinary soldiers. No, Grass wasn't a concentration-camp guard but there was a permeable boundary between such people and the Waffen SS; but he was brought up his entire early life until age 17 under Nazi propaganda, and one of the most famous Waffen SS units was the 3rd SS Panzer Division "Totenkopf" (Death's-Head), which was initially formed from concentration-camp guards." Of course, they were. Hasn't anyone here red the tens of thousands of collected testimony by victims of the Nazis published over the years? I read my way through the first four volumes published by the Dutch government i the late forties after a commission of inquiry tried to find out what happened to Dutch Jews sent East. It was a sickening experience, and after the fourth volume when some eyewitnesses reported that Jews women tried to run away and where caught by "ordinary" German soldiers and that some who in a stater of delirium attacked their captors were burned to death with flame throwers I gave up reading the rest. This kind of testimony is readily available for those who have the stomach to go through them. Most of the books published of eyewitness accounts leave out a great deal, probably on the advise of publishers.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 11:05pm

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There is something pathetic and inhuman about Roid's posts.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 11:07pm

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You are the one, noga, who defends "payback violence," the stoning of Palestinian schoolchildren, and any atrocity settlers commit on the grounds that the Arabs have provoked this violence directed at them with their hate speech. One assumes that you mean every Palestinian Arab should be the target of racist violence because there are some Arabs who hate Israel. Do you see much difference between the violence against Arabs that you consider legitimate and the violence of the Nazis against the Jews?

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 11:11pm

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There is something subhuman about your disgusting lies, arnon. You have the nerve to associate a piece of filth like yourself with Israel and the Jewish people?

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 11:15pm

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The "learning history" site linked to by Roid is grade school level summary of the Nazi armed forces behavior in the Russian front. There are dozens of history books and novels on the subject: "Babi Yar: A Document in the Form of a Novel (Russian: Бабий яр. Роман-документ) is an internationally acclaimed documentary novel by Anatoly Kuznetsov about the Babi Yar massacre. The two-day murder of 33,771 Jewish civilians on September 29–30, 1941 in the Kiev ravine was one of the largest single mass killings of the Holocaust." http://www.amazon.com/Babi-Yar-Document-Complete-Uncensored/dp/0374528179/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334200425&sr=8-1 "Kuznetsov describes his own experiences, supplementing them with documents and testimonies of survivors. The tragedy of Babi Yar is shown in the context of German occupation of Kiev from its first days of September 1941 until November 1943. "It is also about the curious fact that a 14-year-old boy can show up anywhere and adults -- German soldiers -- don't especially care. By accident, then, he saw what others were not allowed to see. And by accident, he survived the occupation and lived to write about it."[3] The chapter "How Many Times I Should Have Been Shot" lists 20 reasons the fascists should have shot him according to orders issued by the Nazi occupiers. When he talks about his own family, the author does not shy away from criticizing the Soviet regime. Several intermissions directly address the future reader." Here is the source of the quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar:_A_Document_in_the_Form_of_a_Novel#cite_note-2

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 11:16pm

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Typical Roid, he repeats what was said to him. Pathetic and stupid.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 11:17pm

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I'll leave Roid here to bray at the moon. Got better things to do with my time.

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 11:18pm

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Here's another disgusting lie by you arnon: "I hope someone has saved Roid's choice comments about settler being legitimate targets and that they were all guilty under the some geneva article of other." No one saved them because they don't exist. But you are a moron. When you get frustrated that you cannot untangle your childish thoughts, all you can think to do is invent lies. Typical arnon. What a piece of garbage.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 11:21pm

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Sure go ahead, arnon. Get lost. As if a moron like you could possibly have anything at all to do. Face it asshole, you have been caught multiple times here making up disgusting lies out of whole cloth. So what do you do with your time, torture small animals, molest children, poison wells, or do you just masturbate to Nazi propaganda films?

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 11:25pm

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As if it matters, the piece I quoted regarding the Waffen SS is on the point that they were conscripting soldiers into the Waffen SS after 1942. It says nothing at all about the conduct of either the Waffen SS or the rest of the wehrmacht. Arnon has trouble reading simple paragraphs and so confuses two different subjects. I have made no comment at all, one way or the other, about the conduct of German units. Because I am not a liar like arnon, I have only said that Grass's military service should not be falsified as a basis for criticizing him. He should be criticized for what he did, not for what arnon imagines he would have done had the war gone on long enough. That is just a simple matter of honesty and decency. Two subjects that arnon knows nothing about.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 11:31pm

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As for noga, she defends "payback violence," the stoning of Palestinian schoolchildren, and any atrocity settlers commit on the grounds that the Arabs have provoked this violence directed at them with their hate speech. One assumes that she means every Palestinian Arab should be the target of racist violence because there are some Arabs who hate Israel. What is the difference between the violence against Arabs that noga considers legitimate and the violence of the Nazis against the Jews?

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 11:34pm

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Irony, did you ever see the German film, "The Nasty Girl" made by Michael Verhoeven?

- arnon1

April 11, 2012 at 11:34pm

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Gee, arnon, you lying scumbag sack of shit. Weren't you leaving to do something else? Here's another disgusting lie by you arnon: "I hope someone has saved Roid's choice comments about settler being legitimate targets and that they were all guilty under the some geneva article of other." No one saved them because they don't exist. But you are a moron. When you get frustrated that you cannot untangle your childish thoughts, all you can think to do is invent lies. Typical arnon. What a piece of garbage. The perfect confession from arnon: "Reality? What reality?" If you cannot find facts that will serve your malign purposes, you will just make them up. For you goons, there is no truth, there are no lies. There are only useful lies and useless lies.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 11:38pm

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Roid had no trouble describing West Bank settlers as "racist haters". Yet he has trouble describing a man who was in the Waffen SS as having a suspect past, and urges us to understand the pressures HE was under. He sure doesn't like seeing this contradiction pointed out. But the issue here is not Roid. The issue is Grass and his anti-semitic poem. Let's stick to the topic. 1. In the context of Grass's anti-semitic poem, it is natural that Grass's service in the Waffen SS takes on a new importance and an even darker aspect. 2. If the argument is that with his vicious poem, Grass is merely following fashionable attitudes of the German far left concerning Israel, and there is no special connection to his problematic past, then the nature of the attitude of the German far left towards Israel becomes in turn highly relevant. We've already had a discussion of the German far left in this Comments sectio. The facts that emerged were disturbing regarding anti-semitism, starting with these Germans' special championing of a genocidal anti-Jewish movement, the Palestinians. But this also includes the violently anti-semitic activities of the Tupamaros West-Berlin and the RZ. And it includes the much general reluctance of German leftists to see there is a problem with any of this.

- ProfEthan

April 11, 2012 at 11:41pm

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Fuck you too Ethan. The subject we need to stick to is that you too are a lying sack of shit who cannot seem to make whatever point you want to make without the embellishment of lies. I have said not a word about "the pressures that Grass was under." That entire discussion was by ironyroad. You have a problem with that, take it up with him. Since you have now become a master of innuendo, that I "have trouble describing a man who was in the Waffen SS as having a suspect past," I have said nothing whatever to that point. I have said that criticism of his past should be based on his actual past, including his actual military service, not on what various people have openly started to imagine about his past, for example that he was not in fact drafted let alone arnon's ruminations about what crimes Grass would have committed had the war continued long enough. So, the point now is you, Ethan, and the fact that you too engage in the execrable practice of inventing falsehoods to plant in other people's mouths. What is wrong with you? "it is natural that Grass's service in the Waffen SS taken on a new importance and an even darker aspect" What the hell is natural about that? What about his service? What is it that he is supposed to have done while serving in Panzer division that is relevant to his poem that you say is the subject? Speaking of genocidal movements, are we now to understand that "the Palestinians," all of them, are "a genocidal anti-Jewish movement?" Do you want to rephrase that or should we just accept that you are a racist with genocidal designs on "the Palestinians" and move on?

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 11:52pm

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You want to quote me, Ethan, do it honestly. I said, "there are settlers who are racist haters and assassins of Palestinians." And indeed there are. Your version was this, "Roid had no trouble describing West Bank settlers as "racist haters"." Those don't mean the same thing at all, now do they? So either decide that you want to behave here with some decency and honesty or count on being tagged as a lying scumbag piece of shit along with arnon.

- roidubouloi

April 11, 2012 at 11:58pm

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"Fuck you too Ethan." Isn't he a sweetheart, Ethan?

- arnon1

April 12, 2012 at 12:40am

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Gee, arnon, you lying scumbag sack of shit. Weren't you leaving to do something else? As if a moron like you could possibly have anything at all to do. Face it asshole, you have been caught multiple times here making up disgusting lies out of whole cloth. So what do you do with your time, torture small animals, molest children, poison wells, or do you just masturbate to Nazi propaganda films? Here's another disgusting lie by you arnon: "I hope someone has saved Roid's choice comments about settler being legitimate targets and that they were all guilty under the some geneva article of other." No one saved them because they don't exist. But you are a moron. When you get frustrated that you cannot untangle your childish thoughts, all you can think to do is invent lies. Typical arnon. What a piece of garbage.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 12:44am

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I quoted Roid accurately. He has no problem describing West Bank settlers as "racial haters"; also: "assassins." But he has a problem with agreeing that the author of the anti-semitic poem also has a problematic past in the Waffen SS. ANYONE who served in the Waffen SS has a problematic past! Why else does anyone think Gunter Grass kept his service with the Waffen SS hidden for 50 years--does anyone here think he FORGOT? Why didn't he say something when he won the Nobel Prize in 1999? Was he still being FORGETFUL? Roid wants to make such service in the Waffen SS not so bad, especially if Grass were drafted in the last months of the war. Roid evidently does not know the fundamental literature on the Waffen SS. And the circumstances of Grass joining the Waffen SS are murky--despite, um, Wikipedia. Lots of people were simply drafted into the Wehrmacht in the last months of the war, that's true; Gunter Grass was not among them. His anti-semitic poem makes this problematic past in the Waffen SS even more problematic. I add: anyone who served with the Wehrmacht in the East has a problematic past as well. The idea that the Waffen SS were brutes but that the regular Wehrmacht in the East were honorable regular soldiers who acted honorably: this is a self-serving myth created by Nazi generals such as Guderian and von Manstein. Omer Bartov has proven this with great thoroughness.

- ProfEthan

April 12, 2012 at 7:31am

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You are lying again Ethan. Why do you deny that there are racist haters and assassins amongst the West Bank settlers when attacks by them on Palestinian Arabs, including murders and the stoning of schoolchildren trying to go to school, are well documented? Obviously because you have trouble disapproving of any atrocity committed by settlers against Palestinians. That stands to reason. It is you, after all, who said that even for a Palestinian to exist is "to be part of a genocidal Jewish movement." For a right-wing extremist like you, cribbing your material from right-wing hate sites on the internet, how can you complain of genocide? You are an advocate of racist genocide, but you think it is Arabs who should be exterminated. How are you different from the Waffen SS?

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 7:46am

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The 10th SS Panzer Division Frundsberg or 10.SS-Panzer-Division Frundsberg was a German Waffen SS panzer division. . . . The division was mainly formed from conscripts and it first saw action at Tarnopol in April 1944. It took part in the rescue of German troops cut off in the Kamianets-Podilskyi pocket.[1] It was then sent to Normandy to counter the Allied landings. It and its "twin" Division, the 9th SS Panzer-Division Hohenstaufen, played an important part in holding the British Forces back in Normandy, particularly during Operation Epsom.[1] It retreated into Belgium before being sent to rest near Arnhem where they soon had to fight the Allied parachute assault during Operation Market Garden at Nijmegen, in the Netherlands, at which time it, along with the 9th SS Panzer, constituted the II SS Panzer Corps.[1] After rebuilding it fought in the Alsace in January 1945 before being sent to the Eastern Front where it fought against the Red Army in Pomerania and later in Saxony.[1] Encircled at the Halbe Pocket, the division took heavy losses but managed to break out of the encirclement and retreated through Moritzburg before reaching the area of Teplice in Czechoslovakia at the end of the war.[2] At this location, the division surrendered to the Soviet Army.[3] German writer and Nobel laureate Günter Grass was an assistant tank gunner with the division after having been conscripted into the Waffen-SS at the age of 17 in November 1944.[4] __________________ The commander of the 10th Waffen SS Panzer "Frundsberg" Division was Hans Hormel. "A highly respected soldier, Harmel was never accused of any war crimes; in fact, in 1984 he was awarded the Medal for Franco-German Reconciliation by the town of Bayeux, Normandy, around which his division had fought 40 years previously. He also developed a post-war friendship with Maj Gen John Frost, against whose British paratroopers he had fought at Arnhem. Harmel had personally authorized a cease-fire to allow the collection of British wounded from the battlefield, and ensured their decent treatment thereafter." Excerpted from German commanders of World War II.: Waffen-SS, Luftwaffe & Navy, Volume 2 By Gordon Williamson, Malcolm McGregor _______________________ I am sure that those here who are devoted to lies and smears as their preferred method of making a point will continue first to speculate about Grass' war service and then to regard their own speculations as facts. As an American who served in the American army in Germany wrote, "So it goes."

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 8:43am

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So much for you and your "fundamental literature," Ethan. You are a fraud, pretending to know things you don't know at all while pointing a finger at me for failing to speculate in the odious manner that you do. Basically, you are full of shit. Just another jumped up moron.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 8:47am

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It's a bizarre feeling to watch roid descendence into total solipsism. There is practically no one on this blog that he did not dismissed as "moron, s...face, f...face, idiot, liar, full of s..., racist, scumbag, fascist" and other such pleasantries. There is only roid and his truth. How sad.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 12, 2012 at 9:38am

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Roid knows nothing about the Waffen SS or any of its units, except what he reads on Wikipedia. I've given Roid the book to read about how the Waffen SS (and the Wehrmacht) operated in the East: Omer Bartov. That's not some unknown author on Wikipedia; that's the chair of the Department of History at Brown University. Even in the West, Wilhelm Bittrich, commanded the SS Panzer Corps to which 10th SS Panzer Div was assigned; after the war was brought to trial twice on charges of war crimes committed by his men in France. He was acquitted both times and his defense was that out-of-control officers lower down committed those crimes. GET IT? Similarly, Bittrich claimed that the murder of hospitalized British prisoners at Arnhem was done by "Party functionaries" who made him look like a liar regarding his promises to the British opposing commander regarding good treatment. Where, in a battle zone, did these Party-men come from, eh? GET IT? Heinz Harmel, the commander of 10th SS Division in 1944 into early 1945, seems to have been an honorable person. Fine. But his commanding officer Bittrich's mode of defense on the two war-crimes accusations tells one much that one needs to about the nature of soldiers in the 9th and 10th SS divisions. It is hard to imagine that things were much better in the desperate days of early 1945, when Gunter Grass was part of the scene as the division fought in the East (Pomerania). We do not know what, if anything, Grass did; but this can't be whitewashed.

- ProfEthan

April 12, 2012 at 10:08am

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Be sad, makover, very sad, for your poor country. There is no one here to speak for it who cannot refrain quickly from resorting to slanders, smears, and lies. Imprecations may offend a tender child such as yourself, but they are mere words, opinions if you like, or less than that. They are not the equivalent of knowing and defamatory falsehoods, the chosen weapon of totalitarians. One is therefore forced to ask, what is it about Israel or Israel and TNR that accounts for such behavior and for the lack of anyone who will put a case for Israel in a sober way employing facts and arguments, even when Israel clearly has the stronger argument? Why is it that the instant response to criticism of Israel is resort to the charge of anti-Semitism? Why are the people who come here to defend Israel so incompetent? Their lies are often incredible for their boldness, their indifference to obvious truth that can be discerned on the same page, but so childish. For all that the lot of you lack scruple, you are not even good liars. It is a puzzle. But the right-wing, extremist lunacy that infects your country and spills over to this site, that has to roll in the mud of lies and smears at the first opportunity, is certain to continue to erode Israel's stature in the world, hence its strategic posture, hence its ability to defend itself. None of that matters to you in the slightest. All that matters is that, at any given moment, you find some weapon, without regard to honesty, with which to attack any critic. Maybe it is just the example of your prime minister who, even in this incident, embarrasses your country by banning Grass. Beats me. For an Israeli to accuse anyone of solipsism in the context of a political discussion is the height of irony. Solipsism is your national disease. You spew all this nonsense not only without regard to honesty or decency, but oblivious to the reality that it persuades no one and repels ever growing numbers of people in the western world upon whom your existence depends. This, of course, you dismiss as the mysterious resurgence of anti-Semitism, because you dismiss everything as anti-Semitism. You are lost in your delusions.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 10:17am

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It's a waste of time engaging Roid about issues he know little about, Ethan et al... He is incapable of admitting even to himself that he doesn't what he is talking about.

- arnon1

April 12, 2012 at 10:31am

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Cannot stop manufacturing the facts you want, can you, Ethan? Of course, it is quite possible that there are terrible things we don't know anything about. It is possible that you really do molest children in a dungeon in your basement, isn't it? But there are no facts of record regarding the actions of the division in which Grass serve during the short period in which he served or before that implicate it in war crimes. Certainly there are people superior to General Harmel who are implicated in war crimes. We can even assume that your claims about Harmel's commanding officer are true, although your track record with the facts is pretty awful. So what? Since it is now clear that you manufactured your accusations, we are now supposed to accept that, "Bittrich's mode of defense on the two war-crimes accusations" implicates Grass in some manner? Not even Bittrich's conduct regarding any action in which Grass participated, not the conduct of the field commander in command of the division, Harmel, but "the mode of [Bittrich's] defense" after the fact at trial? Do you have any idea how pathetic that is? However, in this case too we can easily see that you don't know what you are talking about. You disdain wikipedia, but in the absence of some contrary evidence, none of which you ever produce, it is a responsible and generally reliable source. Here is what it says about Bittrich (are you so inept you cannot figure out how to look this stuff up before you make claims?): "General Bittrich is regarded as a Waffen-SS officer who largely behaved with integrity and chivalry throughout the war[citation needed]. After his arrest on May 8, 1945 he was extradited to France on charges of having ordered the execution of 17 members of the Resistance in Nîmes. The trial revealed that Bittrich had not given such an order and had even opened procedures against the responsible officers. As the commander in charge of the culprits, he was held responsible for the misconduct of his subordinate troops and sentenced to five years in prison. The sentence was considered as served after a long pretrial detention. He was put on trial for a second time in 1953, but was acquitted by the French court in Bordeaux again and released in 1954.[2]" Since you have no facts at all upon which to implicate Grass for being other than an assistant tank gunner in a unit engaged in regular combat, you finally resort to this: "It is hard to imagine that things were much better in the desperate days of early 1945, when Gunter Grass was part of the scene as the division fought in the East (Pomerania)." That's right. Your own imagination. And now you are candid enough to admit it. Like I said, you are a fraud. You pretend to know what you don't know, point the finger at me for declining to engage in your odious behavior of using your imagination to fill in the blanks, and then, hilariously and unselfconsciously, admit that you are relying on your own imagination. What nice things do you think should be said about someone who behaves as you do?

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 10:33am

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"Gunter Grass Compares Israel to E. Germany" "German literary giant Gunter Grass said Israel’s decision to bar him entry following publication of his controversial poem resembles the behavior of a dictatorship. Writing in the German Sueddeutsche Zeitung, Grass said the decision puts Israel in the company of Communist-ruled East Germany and junta-ruled Myanmar – the only two regimes that ever have barred him entry. Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai declared the Nobel Prize-winning writer persona non grata this week after Grass published a short poem that suggested that Israel’s saber-rattling on Iran was a greater threat to world peace than the prospect of a nuclear-armed Islamic Republic. “It’s the alleged right to a first strike that could destroy an Iranian people,” Grass wrote in his poem. “Why only now, grown old, and with what ink remains, do I say: Israel’s atomic power endangers an already fragile world peace?” After the poem sparked a firestorm of criticism in Israel and Germany, Grass said he should have phrased the poem differently to make it clear that the current Israeli government was his target, not Israel as a whole." Read more: http://www.forward.com/articles/154691/gunter-grass-compares-israel-to-e-germany/#ixzz1rpwHKIXJ I didn't think that Grass should be barred from going to Israel, but his comparison to East Germany is another desperate attempt to deny that his comments about Israel were absurd, untrue, and just plain stupid.

- arnon1

April 12, 2012 at 10:35am

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It's a waste of time engaging Roid about any issues.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 12, 2012 at 10:35am

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We can be sure you know what you are talking about, arnon, because you knowingly manufacture falsehoods to place in the mouths of others and don't have much of anything else to so. I am sure that by now I don't even need to repeat again what that makes you. The unfortunate thing is, there really are not adequate words to express what a disgrace you are. Th sum of all the imprecations in the English language does not begin to do you justice.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 10:35am

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The failed mediocre is hysterical. Has been blogging continuously. He needs professional treatment. Is it true that the liberated territories have been expanding at a rapid pace. Construction is done by Palestinian construction workers. Israel pays them 1.4 billion dollars. The collected taxes, 100 million USD are given back to the Palestinian Authority, without this money the PA could not exist. Is it true? Double check with your sister. Although Galicianers are known dishonest, and this might be an attempt in futility. Sadly I am adding to your hysteria. But apologizing for theocrat Iran, apologizing for German nazi. Apologizing for Palestinian and Islamic terrorism. Condoning Islamic fanatic murder of Jewish children. Lying about the liberated territories where there is progress and advancement, and controlled terrorism. You should be ashamed of yourself. And your sister too.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 12, 2012 at 10:41am

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There is also this from the wikipedia article on Bittrich: Following operation Market-Garden in 1944, Albert Speer visited the frontlines and had an opportunity to meet General Bittrich. Speer later wrote: Other visits (to the front) showed me that efforts were being made on the Western Front to arrange agreements with the enemy upon special problems. At Arnhem, I found General Bittrich of the Waffen-SS in a state of fury. The day before, his Second Tank Corps had virtually wiped out a British airborne division. During the fighting the general had made an arrangement permitting the enemy to run a field hospital behind the German lines. But party functionaries had taken it upon themselves to kill captured British and American pilots, and Bittrich looked like a liar. His violent denunciation of the party was all the more striking since it came from an SS general.[3] After his unit had been tasked with the defense of Vienna in spring 1945, Bittrich immediately pulled his troops out of the city to save it from destruction despite the order to hold Vienna "to the last breath". _________________________ Of course, there is no need to resort to any factual sources. We have Ethan and arnon to imagine for us what the members of the Panzer corps, from General Bittrich, to General Harmel, down to Grass, a newly recruited assistant tank gunner (was there any lower rank?) were doing from November 1944 when Grass was drafted until the end of the war (when, according to all available accounts, they were engaged in regular combat).

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 10:48am

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Incredible that such a collection of clowns, who cannot even stir themselves to read sources available in two seconds at the touch of a button, can claim that anyone else on earth doesn't know what they are talking about. Don't even bother Jaime. I couldn't possibly be irritated by your lunatic spewing after having to deal with the defamatory lies of the likes of Ethan, arnon, noga (and her pet boy, makover), and NR106646. You are the pimple on the ass of the elephant.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 10:50am

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I sort of missed this from makover: "It's a waste of time engaging Roid about any issues." Hysterical! As if you EVER manage to engage on any issue rather than resort to juvenile insults.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 10:53am

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The truth why the German nazi was barred to enter Israel is that they could not protect him from somebody killing him. Now in Germany some good Samaritan might complete the deed. On the other hand the German nazi would be accepted with open arms in Iran. Let us say in the next conference denying the Holocaust Part 2. The islamo fascists and the German nazi will enjoy each other immensely. Now, this better happens soon, before theocratic Iran is bombed out of existence.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 12, 2012 at 10:56am

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No need to call for violence against Gunther Gassed. Such calls would make him out to be a martyr.

- arnon1

April 12, 2012 at 11:05am

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The hysterical failed mediocrity also called Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew, apologizer of Iran and German nazi. He named himself king of the stinky baloney. As a madman defends failed international institutions dealing with the progressive liberated territories. He lies about imaginary Geneva agreements. He madly demonizes Israel and the great prime minister Netanyahu. His sister, he tells us emigrated to Israel 35 years ago, is also mad as hell, maybe because she has not been hit yet by a Palestinian rocket. So, roi...dent, hemo...roid, has his mouth full of shit. Thus far he has been spiting this shit all over the place. Let us hope the shit gets stuck in his throat. Hysterical failed mediocrity.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 12, 2012 at 11:13am

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Oh yes, according to roid SS-Oberstgruppenführer Bittrich was simply a honorable officer. Just a milk of human kindness on all levels as opposed to those murderous settlers.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 12, 2012 at 11:20am

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arnon -- I haven't seen The Nasty Girl (oddly enough) but I'm very familiar with the story. BTW I've just been going through Peeling the Onion (briskly, so I may miss stuff) and I'm puzzled by something Noga wrote earlier, but I haven't got time now to go into it.

- ironyroad

April 12, 2012 at 11:25am

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Up to now the hysterical failed mediocre had a good life confronting noga1. His distortions and false statements were always handled by noga1 with class and high civility, which is to be admired when dealing with a scum. But now this shit head defends the German nazi. He has crossed a line that only Jewish capos in the concentration camps used to practice. We need to realize he is mentally deranged, his hatred for Israel and the Jews is enormous, he needs urgently professional help. I am sure his sister is reading his diatribes. Hopefully his sister will try to help him, before he jumps of the cliff. Hysterical failed mediocrity. And an unmitigated liar. King of the stinky baloney. The required medications are either clozearyl or geodon .

- JAIMECHUCH

April 12, 2012 at 11:35am

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Up to now the hysterical failed mediocre had a good life confronting noga1. His distortions and false statements were always handled by noga1 with class and high civility, which is to be admired when dealing with a scum. But now this shit head defends the German nazi. He has crossed a line that only Jewish capos in the concentration camps used to practice. We need to realize he is mentally deranged, his hatred for Israel and the Jews is enormous, he needs urgently professional help. I am sure his sister is reading his diatribes. Hopefully his sister will try to help him, before he jumps of the cliff. Hysterical failed mediocrity. And an unmitigated liar. King of the stinky baloney. The required medications are either clozearyl or geodon .

- JAIMECHUCH

April 12, 2012 at 11:35am

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The point about Bittrich and Harmel is that their defense about these atrocities is their claims about the mood in their Waffen SS divisions, which led others--not them--to commit war crimes. That's their own portrait of their men. Roid somehow doesn't think there's anything particularly bad about having been in the Waffen SS, or anyway the 10th SS Panzer Division. Almost like a regular Wehrmacht division. No-- Roid doesn't understand the nature of these organizations. Grass by contrast was there, and doesn't have to depend on Wikipedia for his knowledge. Iif he hadn't felt there was something bad about it, he would not have hidden his involvement for FIFTY YEARS.

- ProfEthan

April 12, 2012 at 11:41am

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The medications are closaril, the other is geodon. When you are out of control blogging 24 hours, and very mad, you need either of these medications for going back to normality. Closaril requires monthly blood analyzes, in some cases it can damage the liver, otherwise is quite safe. Geodon side effect is insomnia, additional medications are prescribed to let you sleep. With all in all your physician will tell. After all good luck hysterical fellow blogger.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 12, 2012 at 11:48am

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The medications are closaril, the other is geodon. When you are out of control blogging 24 hours, and very mad, you need either of these medications for going back to normality. Closaril requires monthly blood analyzes, in some cases it can damage the liver, otherwise is quite safe. Geodon side effect is insomnia, additional medications are prescribed to let you sleep. With all in all your physician will tell. After all good luck hysterical fellow blogger.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 12, 2012 at 11:48am

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"BTW I've just been going through Peeling the Onion (briskly, so I may miss stuff) and I'm puzzled by something Noga wrote earlier, but I haven't got time now to go into it." That sounds ominous, ironyroad. I'll try to find the exact page number for you. I can't find my copy of the book but I may have access to the chapter in which Wannsea is mentioned this evening.

- noga1

April 12, 2012 at 12:38pm

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ProfEthan "The point about Bittrich and Harmel is that their defense about these atrocities is their claims about the mood in their Waffen SS divisions, which led others--not them--to commit war crimes. That's their own portrait of their men. Roid somehow doesn't think there's anything particularly bad about having been in the Waffen SS, or anyway the 10th SS Panzer Division. Almost like a regular Wehrmacht division. No-- Roid doesn't understand the nature of these organizations. Grass by contrast was there, and doesn't have to depend on Wikipedia for his knowledge. Iif he hadn't felt there was something bad about it, he would not have hidden his involvement for FIFTY YEARS." Ethan, Roid like a lot of Jews born in the 60's has only a superficial level of knowledge about the Shoah gotten mostly from movies, documentaries and the internet. I doubt he has read many first hand account of it and those he read (if he read any ) were by famous people Like Elie Wiesel or Primo Levi. I have met many people like him who think that Germany had been "captured" by a small party who forced their views on the public. These tend to assign blame to a small group of people beginning with Hitler. Their view of the Shoah is that since Hitler is dead therefore what happened is past and done with. No need to think about it anymore except maybe (by lawyers and law students) as a question of the misuse of law. These is what may account for Roid's ignorance about Nazism and the Shoah. He doesn't seem to realize that the "small number" comprising the Nazi apparatus was supplemented by the larger German army and by millions upon millions of ordinary Germans. That the SS was mainly preoccupied with killing Jews but that the German army and even civilian volunteers were used to round up Jews and recapture them if they escaped. That Hitler is dead is no comfort since Hitlerism is very much alive in many parts of the world. The irony is that most Germans today know more about it than he does. There were also many German intellectuals like Habermas and Jaspers before him who took Nazism very seriously and didn't come up with easy answers.

- arnon1

April 12, 2012 at 12:51pm

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Says makover: "Oh yes, according to roid SS-Oberstgruppenführer Bittrich was simply a honorable officer. Just a milk of human kindness on all levels as opposed to those murderous settlers." Of course, makover. So thoroughly immersed are you in the crazy house of propaganda and smears that is your universe that to say that Bittrich was acquitted of any personal responsibility for war crimes (not that he is innocent of any, that we do not know, but that there is no record that he was) and is reported to have acquitted himself in accordance with the law of war (or even been at some time more merciful than the law of war required) is the same thing as declaring him "a milk of human kindness." That's because facts of any kind don't matter to you, makover. You are oblivious to facts. You don't care about facts any more than you care about the reality of the situation your country is in. You are only interested in what narrative you can manage to make stick to someone and assume that everyone else is as thoroughly dishonest and corrupt as you are and does the same. In the perverted reasoning of your mind, if I don't approve of unsubstantiated accusations against the man, then I must be characterizing him as the diametric opposite of whatever you falsely claim, "the milk of human kindness." But I make no such claim. Indeed, I didn't make any claim other than that Ethan was inventing claims. I reported some of what is know and can easily be found by someone who is actually interested in facts. I simply believe that Bittrich, or Harmel, or Grass should be criticized based on what they are known to have done or for which there is at least some sort of persuasive evidence. Evidence does not include what corrupt people like you, arnon, or Ethan imagine they must have done or might have done or would do in the future. Also, in his first trial, it appears that Bittrich was found not to have ordered people executed but was convicted based on the fact that he was the commanding officer of the division. If that standard were applied in either the US or Israel, there would be quite a few generals from both countries in jail. If you have some criticism to make of Grass for having been for a few months an assistant tank gunner in ordinary combat, the worst charge that any evidence will support, go right ahead. The only reason you all have to embellish and elevate Grass to implied responsibility for the actions of a whole division (for which there is in any case no evidence of atrocities for which even the commanders were culpable) is that you don't think that would be very convincing. And then, of course, you absolutely cannot help yourself. You have to invent some falsehood to place in my mouth. The bunch of you scummy liars is so stewed in extremist propaganda and accustomed to engaging in the same extremist behavior, no doubt what you teach your children around the dinner table, that you don't even notice yourself doing it. Lying is as normal to you as breathing.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 12:54pm

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Ethan the fabricator says this: "Roid somehow doesn't think there's anything particularly bad about having been in the Waffen SS, or anyway the 10th SS Panzer Division. Almost like a regular Wehrmacht division." But in fact, the history is that the 10th SS Panzer Division fought as a regular Wehrmacht division during the two years from its inception to the end of the war. Its commanding officer, General Hamel, was never accused of war crimes and was in fact honored by the French years after the war. You have no idea what I think, but because you are scummy lying smear artist, you use innuendo to imply that I think there was "nothing particularly bad." What I think is precisely that the 10th SS Panzer Division fought as a regular Wehrmacht division, because that is what the historical evidence shows, and you haven't furnished anything to the contrary beyond what you admit to imagining. In terms of culpability for service in the German army in World War II, I don't attach much to a 17-year old who was drafted and, as far as is known, served as a mere ranker in ordinary combat. You are welcome to ascribe to Grass whatever culpability you like based on what he did. But when you ascribe culpability to him for what you are only imagining, based on no evidence about either him or the unit in which he served, then you are a liar. Which of course, you are.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 1:03pm

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And here is arnon, trying to retreat from his grotesque lies by imputing to me all sorts of lack of knowledge and all sorts of beliefs about the history of Nazi Germany again based purely on his own imagination. Incredible! You people simply cannot help yourselves. The moment you open your mouths, out comes the invented history that you insist on attaching to everyone and everything so that the world can seem to conform to your incredibly childish views of it and the people in it. You go on and on speculating at great length about what I do and do not know about the Holocaust, what books I may or may not have read about it, and whatever else pops into that walnut-sized brain of yours. You even manage to invent the decade in which I was born, off by a decade. I had Holocaust survivors in my family, people who were in camps, tattoos on their arms and all. I can actually remember the Eichmann trial and their reaction to it. What about you? Despite the gravity of the subject matter, I cannot help starting to laugh at what a completely un-selfconscious idiot you are, arnon. Did you graduate from high school? Did you even make it to high school?

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 1:14pm

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"You even manage to invent the decade in which I was born, off by a decade." Actually, I would have thought by your claims to be a student of law that you had been more much later than the 560's. But then no one should you at your word. "I had Holocaust survivors in my family, people who were in camps, tattoos on their arms and all. I can actually remember the Eichmann trial and their reaction to it. What about you?" Hard to believe that by what you write about both Grass and Israel.

- arnon1

April 12, 2012 at 1:44pm

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A great article by Ari Shavit: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/gunter-grass-and-the-mute-left-1.423895 "With the sensitive instincts of a great writer, Grass makes a radical statement that reflects a deep-seated idea now spreading in the dark cellars of the new Germany, the new Europe and the new left. According to this deep-seated idea, Israel, not Iran, is the present-day aggressor in the Middle East. Not the extremist Shi'ites but the extremist Israelis are the new Nazis. The crime against humanity that must be at the center of our consciousness is not what Hitler did to the Jews but what the Jews are about to do to the Iranians. Therefore, in the name of the Holocaust, the Jews should be denied the nuclear power that could enable them to cause a second Holocaust. "

- noga1

April 12, 2012 at 1:59pm

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The point is not the knowledge of details. The point is that you are completely dominated by hatred towards Israel and towards Jews. In your hatred you defend theocratic Iran, you defend German nazi. You condone the killing of Jewish children by the fanatic Islamist in Toulouse France. The other point is that you are blogging constantly without respite repeating the same mad lunacies. Spewing immense hatred. Ask yourself if hatred at the level of irrationality makes any sense. Ask yourself if non stop blogging with long long paragraphs is not a sign of insanity. It is hard because denial is very strong in mental illnesses. A close relative, or a professional can help you. I have watched you for some time. And now you are more out of control than ever. You are very hysterical. There comes a point that you are a danger to others and a danger to yourself. I am not a physician, but I have had wide experience personally with a child of my own, he screwed up himself by using LSD in his teens. He has been under control by using closaril the last 20 years of his life. At the peak of his illness when he was 20, he could talk constantly for 24 hours for days repeating the same thoughts over and over again. He was not aggressive. But I had to call the police to take him to the hospital. Treatment has made him function normally. I hope you realize you need help. Surely I wish you well.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 12, 2012 at 1:59pm

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arnon: I think that you are wrong about roid view on the Shoah and the Nazi era. I agree with you that his knowledge of this issue is limited to "googling" wikipedia but I think the problem is that once roid advances any view an idea or a concept he is incapable to revise or update it in any way. He is not able to admit that anybody might have a better or superior knowledge or understanding of the issue. His is a typical example of Narcissistic behaviour. In short, he is incapable to admit publicly any error and his writing immediately deteriorates into name calling and bullying. I must say that I read with amazement his helpless rage. It emulates a behaviour of a 2 year old child.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 12, 2012 at 2:02pm

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In that case, malahat, I wouldn't rule out senility as a cause of his penning such shitty poetic doggerel.

- arnon1

April 12, 2012 at 2:07pm

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makover, I agree that Roid is incapable of acknowledging error. I sad so on many occasions too. He needs to play the ubermentch. "arnon: I think that you are wrong about roid view on the Shoah and the Nazi era." I would've rule out that I erred with respect to something or other, but since I don't know to which of my posts you are referring I can't respond to what you said above.

- arnon1

April 12, 2012 at 2:42pm

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arnon: You are right. Let's not discuss roid. It's waste of time.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 12, 2012 at 2:51pm

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Yes, Gunter Grass in 1985 bitterly opposed and protested Reagan and Kohl's visit to the Bitburg cemetery. This was because buried there, among 2000 other German war-dead, were 49 Waffen-SS soldiers. Only one of them was an officer, most of them were between the ages of 17 and 19. Unlike Roid, Grass didn't see these men as ordinary soldiers. He bitterly opposed giving them honors with the other war dead. And he didn't have to look it up on Wikipedia to understand why. But as Alfred Grosser wrote when Grass in 2006 at last admitted the truth about himself, "What Grass should have said in 1985 was: 'If I'd been killed, I'd be lying right here among these men.'" ("Wenn ich getotet worden ware, ware main Grab zwischen diesen hier gewesen"). (Frank. Allg.Zeitung, August 18, 2006; sorry, can't put in oomlauts). Yes, indeed.

- ProfEthan

April 12, 2012 at 3:39pm

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"Hard to believe that by what you write about both Grass and Israel." That is because you are a moral cipher, arnon. What you learn from the Holocaust is that anything a Jew does under the claim of self-defense is necessarily legitimate, anything a Jew does that advances attachment to the physical land of Israel is necessarily legitimate, and anyone who questions either of those two propositions is an anti-Semite. Much more thoughtful and sophisticated people than you, both intellectually and morally, don't agree with any of that. Some even think that the best memorial to those lost in the Holocaust is a scrupulous regard for law and human rights and that the existence of anti-Semitism does not excuse a lack of regard for either. Tough for you to understand, I know. ______________________ "He is not able to admit that anybody might have a better or superior knowledge or understanding of the issue." More comedy from makover. Are we supposed to understand the factually unmoored speculations of arnon and Ethan superior knowledge? I don't rely on google for my knowledge of the world, but being of a mental age more than 10, I know perfectly well how to use it for claim-checking, something you morons seem never to do. You are quite happy to spout complete nonsense, as Ethan does, somehow thinking that an air of assumed authority will suffice to carry the day when it is trivially easy to check what you all say. And you still don't get that. How ridiculous are you? As for superior knowledge or argument, the fact that the lot of you must constantly resort to inventing falsehoods to place in my mouth is all the evidence one needs that you are collectively incapable of even arguing anything I say on the merits. If you were not so incompetent, you would not have resort to falsely claiming I have said or written things that that you then think is within your capacity to refute. You fail completely to understand that such behavior is not only execrable but a confession of helplessness. If I am to yield to superior understanding or knowledge, one of you first has to know something, anything, and then you have to be able to fashion an argument from it. So, far you cannot do either. _______________________ "The Waffen-SS was the armed force of the Nazi Party. 'Nuff said." No, it isn't enough said. The Wehrmacht was also the armed force of the Nazi party. Hitler's need for multiple forces with different commands was born of his uncertainty about the loyalty of the professional army general staff. He needed them, but he did not trust them, especially not to commit his crimes for him. So, he created a parallel army, of especially ideologically committed troops, that was formally a part of the party rather than the state. But there was no difference in reality between the party and the state. Also, over time, with the exigencies of war, much of the distinction between the Waffen SS and the regular Wehrmact was lost. The units operated together and, as was described above, after 1943 the Waffen SS, previously the most ideologically committed units, was filled mostly with conscripted and with non-Germans. Grass was conscripted into such a unit late in the war. While the symbolism at Bitburg may warrant ignoring distinctions, as symbolism always does, it is a different matter with respect to individual culpability. The inference constantly drawn here, without foundation, is that Grass is more culpable for his service in a tank division of the Waffen SS than he would have been in a tank corps in the regular Wehrmacht. Given the history of the division in which he served, there is no basis for that.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 4:00pm

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If you all want to fault Grass for hypocrisy, go right ahead. You are all experts on hypocrisy, indeed some of the finest practitioners I have seen, so you are right in your element there. When you stick to the realm of symbolism, rather than attempting to marshal facts and connect them politics let alone geopolitics, you are on much safer ground given your obvious limitations. Anyone can think what they want about a symbol. You will never have to worry about being shown for fools.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 4:08pm

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The Shavit piece linked by noga is excellent. It also includes this: "For now, the storm has ended. But Grass' profound moral failure and the Zionist left's profound failure to respond are a bad sign. They show that the long years of occupation distort people's minds and make them forget key concepts. They show that leading intellectuals in the West and Israel are no longer capable of defending Israel. The words said by Grass and the words not said against Grass prove that the gangrene of delegitimization is gradually spreading and devouring us." I would even accept Shavit's premise that the Zionist left is more at fault than the Zionist right in failing to respond to Grass, except that most of the right-wing response has not been a sober response to the substance of what Grass said, but attacks on him as an anti-Semite, Nazi, worthy of being barred from Israel, and so forth. The furious right-wing hate response, going right up to Netanyahu himself, the Israeli embassy accusing Grass of "blood-libel" pretty much assured that nothing else could be heard. Gee, let me pause here and say, "I told you so." But in the land of right-wing Jewish extremist nuts, which includes both Israel, much of the American Jewish community, and, certainly the posters at TNR, even suggesting that it is a bad idea to demonize Grass rather than respond to what he says means you have to fend off claims that you want to murder West Bank settlers and their children. When I quote Gideon Levy for the proposition that, even though Grass was hyperbolic and uttering falsehoods, it is necessary to pay attention to what he says, we all know what ensues. You people are basically out of your fucking minds. So, let me just say, "I told you so," again. Here, for example, is a good example of what the insanity from Netanyahu on down elicits: http://consortiumnews.com/2012/04/10/demonizing-gunter-grass/ Now, before I am accused of murdering Jewish children in Efrat and putting their blood in my matzos, let me say that I am not endorsing what this writer says. I agree with some of it. I disagree with a lot of it. But that is not why I link to it. I link to it so that you foaming at the mouth wingers can try, try, try to get a sense of how your rhetoric and behavior resonates in the world outside of your little echo chamber. Give it a whirl. Now, re-read the paragraph I quoted from Shavit. I don't know Shavit's views on the settlements and the occupation, but even he can see the causal connection between the occupation and the de-legitimization of Israel. The right insists that the settlements are trivial, the occupation justified, the Arabs are to blame, all the standard garbage you can read here every time there is post about Israel. But try and understand this: Even if the whole world is wrong and you are right, the world is not buying your story and is growing every more frustrated that all Israel does is repeat the story and perpetuate the conflict to save the settlements. Why doesn't the world believe the story? Because it is so patently false that no thinking person could believe it: 1. The settlements clearly make the occupation far more onerous, and everyone knows that they are a provocation. They are colonization. 2. The settlements are illegal, which makes of Israel an outlaw and saps all its claims, whatever they may be, of credibility. The Iraq war had a similar impact on the US, but we elected a different president and are winding it down. 3. Since it is evident that the occupation is to protect the settlements, even the Israeli justice on the ICJ says so, it is no longer evident that the occupation, a military occupation, might still be necessary even without the settlements. They have drained the military occupation of its legitimate security justification. 4. You all believe that if the conflict with the Palestinians were resolved, nothing would change in the Middle East, including the threats by Iran against Israel. You might be right, but almost no one else believes it. The Zionist left has not lost the ability to defend Israel; it is losing the stomach for defending Israel, because defending Israel means yoking us to an inhuman settlement policy that we abhor. Worse, every time someone on the left who supports Israel's security tries to create some daylight between support for Israel's security and support for the settlements, what follows is a chorus of abuse from the Jewish right. That's you, whether you think you are on the right or not. You will not permit anyone to criticize the settlements as illegal and a human rights violation without accusations of anti-Semitism, Jewish self-hatred, and on and on. Thus, you, whether you think you are on the right or not, have created a situation in which it becomes impossible to defend Israel without de facto supporting the illegal settlements that we cannot stomach. Entreaties about Tibet and Cyprus or Bumfuck in some obscure corner of the world don't help. You would like the world to see the provocation of the settlements as discrete from the security situation. It is not in fact, and no one but a rightwing Zionist True Believer is going to see it that way. Israel has attempted for decades now to legitimize the settlements by trying to wrap them in security claims that no one believes. The result has been not to legitimize the settlements, but to de-legitimize Israel's security claims. This is the all to fertile ground into which Grass steps. While there are distinctions that should be made about who is threatening whom, very few people in the world are going to make them when the perception is there that Israel is dominating the Palestinians and prolonging the conflict in order to continue the occupation and retain the settlements. Israel bet that the Palestinians would let Israel off the hook by allowing it to keep the bulk of the settlement population. That bet is lost, finished, gone. Only Netanyahu and the rest of the wacko right does not see that. Yet, it is as plain as day. Meanwhile, the prolongation of the conflict is threatening to escalate in a very unpredictable way, and the fear of that is only made worse by Netanyahu's improvident threats against the west in general and the United States in particular -- do what we want or we will pull down the temple. When it comes to political rhetoric, that Grass got his facts garbled is not going to make a difference, even if the Zionist left rose up in a body to argue that he got it wrong. My bet is that Grass knew exactly what he was doing and that his objective was to bring pressure to bear on Israel using the rhetoric that would serve to that end. He played fast and loose with the facts to do it, but that is how political rhetoric works (and the reason why smart political rhetoric would not have been to attack Grass which only added to his credibility). If you agree with Shavit, then you will think, as I do that Grass has succeeded. Shavit again; "The words said by Grass and the words not said against Grass prove that the gangrene of delegitimization is gradually spreading and devouring us." Got that? If you all care about the future of Israel, you will stop blasting away at phantoms on the left and tend to your own home. Netanyahu needs to get serious and negotiate a final settlement, even a settlement that means abandoning the settlements. Israel's strategic position is eroding; I have been saying this here for 6-7 years already while watching it unfold pretty much as predicted. Time is not on Israel's side. It is as plain as day. The occupation is a wasting asset. Israel needs to get what it can for it and get out. Because once the tipping point is reach on world opinion, there will be no turning back. Not there yet, but getting there. Netanyahu's belligerency only makes it worse. You all think I am obsessed with the settlements. You are right. Because they are sinking Israel, and the Cyprus game is not going to help one little bit.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 5:04pm

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"But I do wonder why you're still taking that position when Grass himself, a Waffen-SS member (though not known at the time), so publicly thought the difference was clear." Because it is part and parcel of the misguided effort to brand Grass as a Nazi, and implicitly or in some cases explicitly as culpable for war crimes. Plus, the failure to make truthful distinctions is at the root of Grass's perfidy. I don't think emulating him, lumping everything lurid all together in the expectation that no one will make distinctions, is a good idea.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 5:17pm

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The recommendation is to contact NAMI, stands for National Alliance for the Mentally Ill. There are local chapters in every state and major cities. Is an advocacy group. There is nothing wrong. Mental illness is like any other. Unfortunately you have to fight ignorance. Here is where NAMI is of great help. Wish there was something similar to fight anti semitism and self hatred Jews.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 12, 2012 at 5:33pm

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roidubouloi "Hard to believe that by what you write about both Grass and Israel." That is because you are a moral cipher, arnon." Oh, what an excellent argument by a man who doesn't know the history of Germany, the history of WW2, the history of antisemitism, doesn't understand its nature and doesn't know the first thing about morality. Attacking me is his only way of pretending that he won an argument. Finally, his response to the Grass antisemitic "poem" shows that his world view is not just cloaked in darkness it is a piece with that of Gunter Grass. All of his comments are totally irrelevant to Jews who have a modicum of self respect and know the difference between morality and palaver.

- arnon1

April 12, 2012 at 5:39pm

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Gunter Grass the ex-Waffen SS man knew the distinction between the Waffen SS and ordinary soldiers, and expressed it vehemently and in public in 1985, while still in the midst of hiding his own past (and for good reason). He ought to know. Yes: 'Nuff said.

- ProfEthan

April 12, 2012 at 5:41pm

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"The Waffen-SS was the armed force of the Nazi Party. 'Nuff said." "nuff said," by Roid indeed. Of course the SS was the armed forces of the Nazi Party, so was the Wehrmacht. Did they ever not follow the Nazi parties orders? Without the Wehrmacht standing behind the SS the latter would not have been able to murder millions of people. In Poland it was the SS who rounded up Jews but it was the Wehrmacht that made sure they didn't escape.

- arnon1

April 12, 2012 at 5:45pm

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Roid is a fevered ignorant narcissist and a fool.

- arnon1

April 12, 2012 at 5:46pm

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malahat "Roi, How does making a distinction between the Wehmacht and the Waffen-SS in any way part of "the effort to "brand Gunter Grass as a Nazi and implictly or in some cases explicitly as culpable for war crimes", or conversely, how does not making such a distinction address the same?" You are wasting your time. Roid is a man who can't be wrong about anything and the less he knows about a subject the more he yells about it. The about Grass isn't that he is a "Nazi.' The point is that Grass and thousand of German and even European intellectuals feel so guilty about the Shoah that they need to find ways of branding the Jews guilty of something even if they have to distort the facts.

- arnon1

April 12, 2012 at 5:51pm

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By the way, it's worth saying that we seem to be in a no-man's-land between wildly escalating stupidities here. The Netanyahu government's banning of Grass from Israel was the single dumbest response (are there no diplomats left in Israel who have a clue, or does Netanyahu just not listen the way he doesn't listen when Obama is trying to help him?) that Israel could come up with, making it look as if Grass was on to something. It would have been far better to note his literary contribution, express sadness at recent developments, point out where he is factually and by implication wrong, and ask him to Israel so he could get a feel for the real situation himself. That would have made Grass look like the guy who says the first dumb thing that comes into his head, rather than the national literary sage. Instead -- was anyone surprised? -- Netanyahu came out shooting and handed over the high ground complete with decorated frosting to Grass -- who then intensified the 24-carat regression to the lizard brain by handing it back to N. when he compared Israel to East Germany. I don't know where we are at now -- but here was an opening to do some subtle but devastating surgery on Grass's malicious whimsy, and N. blew it. I don't understand why smarts and flexible responses are so unwanted nowadays. What happened to appealing to people's intelligence rather than their stupidity?

- ironyroad

April 12, 2012 at 6:03pm

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ironyroad: On page 406-7 in the chapter entitled: "The wqedding gifts I received"

- noga1

April 12, 2012 at 6:06pm

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| ironyroad, of course the banning of Grass was dumb and it will look dumber when they decide to lift as they should and will. Netanyahu often makes the wrong moves, but I am not sure that he was the one who proposed the ban. I think I read that it was some Shas minister who did that.

- arnon1

April 12, 2012 at 6:15pm

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Noga -- ok thanks

- ironyroad

April 12, 2012 at 6:22pm

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NAMI. The National Alliance for the Mentally Ill, fights the stigma.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 12, 2012 at 6:33pm

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NAMI. The National Alliance for the Mentally Ill, fights the stigma.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 12, 2012 at 6:33pm

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About banning the German nazi from visiting Israel . Allen Dershowitz and Salman Rushdie indicate he should have been allowed to visit Israel. The German Jews agreed with the ban. Myself he should be banned from life altogether. http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=265626

- JAIMECHUCH

April 12, 2012 at 6:44pm

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Noga -- I just read those pages carefully and I'm not sure what you meant earlier in the discussion. I thought you were saying Grass was hiding something here, but he actually writes about the poets' meeting in the villa, "the house belonged earlier to some Nazi bigwig." That was true of a large number of places in that part of Berlin -- the U.S. took over a lot of them, as it happens, and still held a few right up to 1994 when all the military left, and I lost my interesting job.

- ironyroad

April 12, 2012 at 8:31pm

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ironyroad says: "It would have been far better to note his literary contribution, express sadness at recent developments, point out where he is factually and by implication wrong, and ask him to Israel so he could get a feel for the real situation himself." I already made precisely every one of these points well above with my little version of the speech that Netanyahu might have given. ________________________ arnon is having a little trouble with his reading comprehension again. He takes issue with me for this: "The Waffen-SS was the armed force of the Nazi Party. 'Nuff said." But this was a quote from malahat here: 04/12/2012 - 1:59pm EDT | malahat whereupon I proceeded to make the identical point that arnon then makes, that the Wehrmacht too was the army of the Nazi party as there was no distinction between party and state in Nazi Germany. Arnon then calls me a narcissist and fool, mistakenly thinking that the original statement was mine rather than malahat's, but I am sure he never intended to insult malahat for failing to know thoroughly the history of the Third Reich and its intricacies. It is just that arnon fancies himself an expert who, uniquely, has read "first hand accounts" and thought this was an opportunity to display his superior knowledge. Good job, arnon! ____________________ malahat asks: "Roi, How does making a distinction between the Wehmacht and the Waffen-SS in any way part of "the effort to "brand Gunter Grass as a Nazi and implictly or in some cases explicitly as culpable for war crimes", or conversely, how does not making such a distinction address the same?" This goes directly to the symbolism of Bitburg. The point of these various ceremonies in which German war dead too are honored is that we are symbolically accepting the Germans back into the human family. But in doing so we have to create a little fiction, that the "ordinary German soldier" bears no peculiar responsibility for atrocities and crimes against humanity. Then, however, we need to identify who was so responsible other than the ordinary German soldier. Conveniently, Hitler's convoluted organization offers an answer. We have the SS, one of the departments of which was directly responsible for the camps and another, I believe, for the Einsatzgruppen, the roving death squads that preceded the industrialized killing of the camps. So, we now organize the history into Wehrmacht, "mostly just ordinary soldiers," and the SS, "the perpetrators of the Holocaust." This is essentially a fabricated distinction as, in reality, things were much more jumbled up, just as Hitler's organization was mad and jumbled up. The Wehrmacht were responsible for many atrocities and part of the SS, the Waffen SS, was a second army that fought in regular combat alongside the Wehrmacht. Of course, the Waffen SS too was involved in atrocities, to a greater extent in the early part of the war when it was still volunteers only. But the distinction between the Waffen SS and the Wehrmacht, such as it was, was disappearing after 1943 when the Waffen SS begin to conscript Germans and to use foreign soldiers. The point is that the convenient narrative for purposes of removing the Germans from purgatory is that the Wehrmacht were just soldiers and the SS were not. In all likelihood, there is not much difference, for good or bad, between the Waffen SS buried at Bitburg and the Wehrmacht buried there, but that doesn't fit the political narrative we need now that lets as absolve Germany without seeming to forget the mass crimes. Hence all the brouhaha. But when Reagan visited Bitburg, you can be sure that no what was going to attempt to explain all the arcane distinctions. If people had understood them, it would have ruined the entire symbolic value. We could no longer have absolved the ordinary soldier and by implication the ordinary German. (Arnon is convinced that I don't know anything about the broad responsibility of German society for the Holocaust and that he is peculiarly well-informed, but that is another matter.) One of the results is that, in the public mind, the distinction is now fixed. Hence, to say that Grass was in the Waffen SS is to say that he was part of the Nazi party executing the Final Solution. Not so. But we see various of the posters above, who imagine themselves well-versed in the history, confused about the admittedly confusing history. The reality is that Grass was, near the end of the war, a conscripted assistant tank gunner in a regular combat unit that is not known to have engaged in atrocities, even though it was formally part of the Waffen SS as opposed to the regular Wehrmacht. That doesn't fit the desire of many now to brand him as a Nazi participant in the Final Solution, because we have already given mass absolution to the ordinary German soldier, at Bitburg among other places.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 9:56pm

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arnon is very interested in the moral implications of the Holocaust. I am too. My take on it is that, if we are not ourselves to become like the broad German population that did share responsibility for the Holocaust, we all have a constant responsibility to criticize clearly, visibly, and sharply the moral failures of the state, particularly our own state and moving outward from there. As I indicated in a discussion a while back on this subject, I think there is such a thing as a western community and we who are part of it must also police ourselves, the western community, against human rights lapses. That certainly includes Israel which is a member of the western community. Of course things are worse in other parts of the world. But as an American, I feel a peculiar responsibility to be critical of my government for any moral lapses, and as a Jew I feel a peculiar responsibility to be critical of the government of Israel for its moral lapses. After studying the Holocaust, and teaching a course on it to high school students 40 years ago that obliged me to do a lot of reading, that is what I concluded. It is the only sense that I can make out of it. It cannot really be the case that we are fundamentally different from the Germans of the 30s. Hence, we must be vigilant in policing ourselves. I find it quite ironic that to be an admittedly harsh critic of human rights abuses by the government of Israel is now likely to result in being called an anti-Semite or even a Nazi. Had the Germans been harsh critics of the Nazi regime while they still had time, before the terror descended upon them, perhaps there would have been no Holocaust.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 10:18pm

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Well, malahat, when we, Americans, French, British, lay wreathes in honor of German soldiers who perished in the war, I think this is what we are doing. Matter of opinion, to be sure. As to the metaphysical or theological impact of the ceremony, I myself have no opinion. I don't think it is difficult to find lots of people in the course of the general furor branding Grass as a Nazi, if a naïve one at 17. They think they will discredit him this way, but, of course, it has the opposite effect as ironyroad has pointed out a couple of times. I don't much care whether he is or isn't. There are worse characters still living and I think it is a distraction from what is important.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 10:33pm

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"I already made precisely every one of these points well above with my little version of the speech that Netanyahu might have given." Then the radiant penumbra of originality is yours, roid. Sorry -- I didn't recall that you had said anything like that and I wasn't planning to search 400+ posts to avoid accidental plagiarism.

- ironyroad

April 12, 2012 at 10:36pm

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I wasn't suggesting plagiarism, irony. I merely thought that, in the no-man's land between stupidities, it was a nice opportunity to take credit for having had the same idea. 04/11/2012 - 3:58pm EDT | roidubouloi, at page 6, I believe.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 10:52pm

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I wasn't suggesting, malahat, that you would. But in the post-war reconciliation, this is what occurs. Some great author, I cannot remember who (but someone may remind us), wrote at length about the value and necessity of forgetting along with the value and necessity of remembering. I think human beings have the need to suppress parts of what they know and remember to make life bearable. It would be difficult to be friends with contemporary Germany and might be difficult to be friends with contemporary Germans if one could not somehow put some things aside in a different place in one's mind. I have several German friends, all born after the war, and I think they are wonderful people. Some have living periods who would have been children or teenagers during the war. I have tried to understand how they manage to deal with the history of their country (although none lives in Germany). I cannot figure it out. I don't know how they manage it.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 11:01pm

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I think I read that Bittrich, the commander of the II SS Panzer corps, was aware of and sympathetic toward conspiracies against Hitler late in the war. That he was an SS general was part of why Speer was so surprised at his outburst against the Nazi party. This is also why Hitler created the SS. He was afraid of the regular army, especially the aristocrats whom he knew disdained him as an Austrian, a house painter and lowly corporal in the Great War.

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 11:06pm

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Oy, "some have living parents" not "living periods"

- roidubouloi

April 12, 2012 at 11:23pm

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roidubouloi "arnon is very interested in the moral implications of the Holocaust. I am too. My take on it is that, if we are not ourselves to become like the broad German population that did share responsibility for the Holocaust, we all have a constant responsibility to criticize clearly, visibly, and sharply the moral failures of the state, particularly our own state and moving outward from there." Still here, still arguing with thins historical evidence still getting it wrong. I am not interested in the "moral implications" of the Holocaust. I am interested in the fact that it happened. I am interested in how it happened. ' In the fact that Jews from before the Holocaust from say around the time of Karl Luger the Mayor if Vienna show introduced the term "antisemite: in (ich bin kegen di semitism--or something like that) Jews had been marginalized. Intellectuals of the period form H G Wells to Eliot to G K Chesteton viewed Jews as something repellent. In the fact that many Jewish intellectuals began seeing themselves through the lens of their enemies. Jews were the enemy, they were alien and they were only interested in furthering their own agenda which was “expoit the goym” Jewish bankers etc. (Pounds favorite theme, though not original with him.) Or they saw Jews as using the communists to enslave the Russian people, etc. (Even someone as pro Jewish as Churchill fell for that one for a couple of years.) The only choice Jews had was either to hitch a ride on the non Jews Socialist or Communists movements who had no more use for them than did Karl Luger though like Lenin and Stalin pretended that they did because they could use them to further their ideological world view. “ By the time Hitler came on the scene he didn’t have to invent a fricking thing he attacked die Juden. He didn’t need t seduce anyone because most people in Germany and elsewhere including South America agreed with him. I am interested in this history because they same is happening now with regard to Israel. Israel doesn’t belong to the Jews, it is said. It is a criminal State they say. The try to isolate the Jewish State the way Jews were isolated before 1945. (Eve the NY Times didn’t come to the defense of Jews in the prewar years and during the war. Today they and the New York Review of Books have nary a kind word to say about Israel and Jews who support it. The same kind of abandonment of Jews is going on right now and Gass awful poem should be read in that light. His absurd bias from the ignorant poem to his comparison of Israel to east Germany is of a piece with all the idiotic and contradicatory evil nonsense that was believed about Jews in pre the pre 1930 period. Israel is like east Germany? Hardly, east Germany championed the terrorists who attacked the Jewish State. East Germany never recognized Israel. Gunter Grass is like Ahamdinejad in as much as he comes up with outright lies in order to further his owneveil inclinations towards the Jewish State. And it’s all done in the name of morality. Jews are immoral because…. (feel in the blank). No I don’t think in terms of morality because the anti-Semites have stolen moral discourse and made it barbaric just as the anti-Semites of yore made modern civilization barbaric by using the most up to date technology to erase the Jews of Europe. Instead of morality I am interested in asking why the same sentiments that led to genocide is now in evidence with regard to Israel? Why Grass and the former Mayor of London Livingston and their ilk are preparing the ground work for the annihilation of the Jewish State. Just as before the Holocaust there were stages in which Jews were made gto seem completely immoral almost inhuman so too now Israel is exaggerated as the enemy of peace, as an inhuman monster as bad if not worse than the Nazis. Morality has today be usurped by inhuman monsters who use it as a weapon against their Jewish enemies just as yesteryear they used the weapons of mass production and industrial production as the means for eliminating them. I am not optimistic that we will win, but I am damned if I ever will given in to these lying haters who have no more moral sense than Charles Manson. After the war there was a pretense that gee “how could such things happen.”

- arnon1

April 13, 2012 at 12:42am

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"This is also why Hitler created the SS. He was afraid of the regular army, especially the aristocrats whom he knew disdained him as an Austrian, a house painter and lowly corporal in the Great War." This theory is pretty old and has been disprove almost forty years ago by many historians. Even Shirer had a more complex explanation. read his Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. He was n Berlin during the 30's and saw first hand what was going on. "william shirer rise and fall of the third reich" http://www.amazon.com/The-Rise-Fall-Third-Reich/dp/0671728687

- arnon1

April 13, 2012 at 12:46am

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Jeff Goldberg on Guenter Gass: "Israel-Iran History, Holocaust Perverted in Grass’s Poem" http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-09/israel-iran-history-holocaust-perverted-in-grass-s-poem.html

- arnon1

April 13, 2012 at 12:51am

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I'm sorry, arnon. I gave you way to much credit in suggesting that you had any interest in whether the Holocaust had any implications for moral behavior in the present. I had you pegged right the first time when I said: "That is because you are a moral cipher, arnon. What you learn from the Holocaust is that anything a Jew does under the claim of self-defense is necessarily legitimate, anything a Jew does that advances attachment to the physical land of Israel is necessarily legitimate, and anyone who questions either of those two propositions is an anti-Semite. Much more thoughtful and sophisticated people than you, both intellectually and morally, don't agree with any of that. Some even think that the best memorial to those lost in the Holocaust is a scrupulous regard for law and human rights and that the existence of anti-Semitism does not excuse a lack of regard for either. Tough for you to understand, I know." And now here you are saying: "No I don’t think in terms of morality because the anti-Semites have stolen moral discourse." proving that I was more right than even I realized. At least we have that cleared up. Explains nicely why you have no scruple about what you say once you, in your august majesty, have decided that someone is an anti-Semite. By the way, Shirer's book is long-since regarded as being so unreliable as to be not even properly considered history.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 1:47am

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You are a moral ignoramus and barbarian. You use moral discourse to justify your violent feeling towards the Jewish State. In any case writing to you I was writing about you and your predictable response is about as fresh as last weeks headline and just as uninteresting.

- arnon1

April 13, 2012 at 2:38am

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Look up "moral cipher" on the internet and you will get a million plus hits. It's the unoriginal insult of the day which is why Roid is so happy throwing it around. He can neither think nor write anything original. You are one boring dude.

- arnon1

April 13, 2012 at 2:41am

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ironyroad: I mentioned his treatment of the Wannsee villa in that passage as a possible indication of his own indifference to the subject of the Holocaust. To go to that villa for a poets' conference, to remember it had a Nazi past and to not even allude to the previous conference that had taken place there seem to support my view. What's important about the villa is not that it belonged to a Nazi bigwig but the event that had taken place there. That he was unaware of it, or didn't consider it worth mentioning says something about his priorities. It would have been better had he remained completely silent about the location but he didn't. He demonstrated that he had historical knowledge and a certain sense of iron but not any PROPER FEELING for what is really important about that location. In this he fails as a writer and a human being and this kind of selective or manipulative amnesia goes together with the kind of interpretation of the Holocaust he offers in his recent poem. BTW, it was not Netanyahu who banned Grass but Eli Yishai: http://www.jewishnews.net.au/israel-bans-nobel-poet-grass/25627 "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu released a statement saying: “Gunter Grass’s shameful moral equivalence between Israel and Iran, a regime that denies the Holocaust and threatens to annihilate Israel, says little about Israel and much about Mr Grass.” Referring to Grass’ admission in 2006 that he had been an SS soldier, Netanyahu said: “For six decades, Mr. Grass hid the fact that he had been a member of the Waffen SS. So for him to cast the one and only Jewish state as the greatest threat to world peace and to oppose giving Israel the means to defend itself is perhaps not surprising.” Israel’s literary community joined the criticism. The Hebrew Writers’ Association claimed in a statement that Grass’ “terrible statement cast a dark shadow over all of his writings.” Interior Minister Eli Yishai, who took the decision to bar the writer, said he did so because of his “attempt to inflame hatred against the State of Israel and people of Israel.” ______________ Did Grass express any wish to visit Israel? After publishing this poem, wouldn't visiting Israel to see for himself be more like closing the doors of the stable after the horses have gotten away? Why make such an issue from the response to Grass's libelous incitement against Israel? How come irony you have no resources of sympathy and a quest for FAIRNESS (which you insist we apply to Grass's work) when it comes to a very natural expression of disgust and rejection by a people slandered with the most horrific kind of genocidal intentions? Why would any Israeli Jew extend a hand to shake the hand that had penned such an ugly document of human perversity? Where are your priorities in all this? All I see is a repeated effort on your part to maintain and preserve Grass's status as a literary beacon, as if you regret more the damage done to his reputation than the damage he inflicted on Israel's reputation and moral standing.

- noga1

April 13, 2012 at 6:56am

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BTW, roi didn't imply you plagiarized his ideas. What he meant to do in his comment was to create a circle of amity and common sense around you and him. In other words, he was sidling up to you, saying in effect: ironyroad and I are the only ones who are civilized enough to understand what's what and how things should be understood and done amid all these Jewish hysterics and yahoos. Since everyone around here seems to want to bask in the light of your ethical approval, a commonality between two would be a feather in his cap. For me, alas, it works in the opposite direction.

- noga1

April 13, 2012 at 7:03am

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I must confess, arnon, I have been very impressed with the originality of your thought, your detailed grasp of history, your erudition, and your moral acumen. Roi: "You are a moral cipher, arnon." Arnon: "I don’t think in terms of morality because the anti-Semites have stolen moral discourse." Perhaps you can suggest a more interesting description than "moral cipher." I would certainly like to avoid repetition. ______________________ "Hysterics" would be about right. "Yahoos," I don't know. That implies a lack of culture and sophistication that doesn't quite seem to fit. One should not discount "messianic nuts." Although the two groups, the hysterics and the messianic nuts, are distinct, they do overlap. And in Israel they form a governing coalition. Last time I checked, Eli Yishai, the head of the ultra-orthodox, right-wing Shas party, was a Deputy to Netanyahu and a cabinet member in Netanyahu's government. Of course, to point out that Netanyahu is in the thrall of religious, right-wing extremists is hardly news. After all, we cannot attribute every misstep of Netanyahu's to sheer stupidity. Even he couldn't contrive to be such a clod. There have to be other reasons. Pity that Netanyahu wouldn't publicly accept a two-state solution (how many years after Oslo?) so as to form a coalition with Kadima rather than Shas. Of course, one might think that being aligned with Shas gives Netanyahu a good political excuse for the implacability that he in any case prefers.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 9:07am

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"You are a moral cipher, arnon." It does my heart good when someone keeps repeating the same insults. It shows his brain his stuck like a needle on an old record. Moral cipher can have more than one meaning even though these days it's used to mean something of no worth. However, since you are incapable of de-ciphering its other possible and worthier meanings I'll just take your phrase to mean something like a person trying to come to terms with they way 'morality" is used these days to justify all kinds of hideous crimes of which the enforcer Roid has not inkling or in some cases approves of justifying barbarities in the name of morality. Yes I am a moral deci-pherer and according to my calculations there isn't much genuine morality out there. Just enough to keep bobos like Roid happy in their predetermined understanding of "morality" as is the case of our booboisie.

- arnon1

April 13, 2012 at 9:33am

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Babarities? How would you know? Your idea of barbarity is, "When you do it to me it is a barbarity. When I do it to you it isn't." Because thinking about what is or is not right behavior is too tedious for you post-Holocaust. There is only one primordial crime for you, anti-Semitism, the single organizing principal of the universe. Everything else follows from that. Along with the rest of the moral nihilists (new word there, look it up and see how many google hits you can get), you consider that it is all relative anyway and, as long as you can find someone, somewhere doing something worse, anything a Jew does must be accepted. Ohterwise, it is a case of anti-Semitism, the über-crime. You do have a very simple organizing principle. That must appeal to you a great deal as it must at least seem like something within your grasp.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 10:16am

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"Pity that Netanyahu wouldn't publicly accept a two-state solution (how many years after Oslo?) " Don't confuse him with records and facts: 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wye_River_Memorandum 2. http://www.haaretz.com/news/full-text-of-netanyahu-s-foreign-policy-speech-at-bar-ilan-1.277922

- noga1

April 13, 2012 at 10:40am

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BTW, this thread is about Gunter Grass's antisemitic poem in which he denies the Jewish people in Israel the right to protect themselves on the grounds that when they are worried about Iran's (for him, non-existant) threats it actually means that they are planning a genocide of 80 million Iranians. Of all the people in the world the Jews get his first rate attention. Why? Because he considers himself an expert on Jewish suffering and genocide, seeing as he was and remains the son of a nation who actually perpetrated a genocide upon the Jews. This thread is not about apartments in Jerusalem, or about the two-state solution, or about Israel's society or about Netanyahu's intelligence. It is about the healthy state of antisemitism in Germany. Roi here will have you believe the two are tightly connected. Don't believe him. They are not. A false connection was created by Gunter Grass, a German with dark sentiments and actions in his past who should know better, now an antisemite with receipts, on record.

- noga1

April 13, 2012 at 10:54am

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roidubouloi "Babarities? How would you know? Your idea of barbarity is, "When you do it to me it is a barbarity. When I do it to you it isn't." Because thinking about what is or is not right behavior is too tedious for you post-Holocaust." Your ignorance astounds, Roid. Moral barbarism is at play when Jewish little school girls are murdered in Toulouse France by vengeful Islamic fanatics and a discussion starts among intellectuals on the left about Israel being responsible for this killings and a teacher at a French Lycee asks her students for a moment of silence to honor the killer who in her barbarous consciousness identifies as the real victim. Moral barbarism was on display when Guenter Gass publishes a poem accusing the Jewish State of planning a genocide against the Iranian people instead of acknowledging that Iranian officials from the moderate Rafsanjani to the bellicose Ahmadinejad have threatens to destroy the Jewish State with one atomic bomb. Moral barbarism is on display when "well meaning" people accuse Jews of only caring about themselves and saying that they should not fight back on their own but allow the rest of the world to come to their aid. (As they did no doubt during the years of genocide 1933-1945.) Interesting Sartre when he wrote his famous critique of antisemitism "Antisemite and Jew" made it a point of answering the charge that liberals while they day they care about murderous Jew hatred see it only as one hatred among many and assign it a low priority. Sartre's book is worth reading more for his critique on liberal inaction than on any positive recommendation made regarding antisemitism. Moral barbarism is at play each time human rights organizations meet to plot against Israeli sovereignty which they see as the most and to some only real problem in the world today. Moral barbarism has its aim assigning primary responsibility for the mid-eat conflicts on Zionism. Their ultimate aim is the abolition of the Jewish State and the setting up of a single State where Jews would be in the minority and like most minorities in the Mid East will disappear.

- arnon1

April 13, 2012 at 11:14am

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All very welcome, noga. Two posts in around that are a serious contribution to debate. As to records in facts, did Prof. Alon Ben-Meir, in his contemporaneous article, mischaracterize the reason for collapse of the coalition negotiations between Livni and Netanyahu? His analysis of the consequences of Netanyahu's preference for Shas et alia seems quite prescient. "The Collapse of the Coalition Negotiations between Benjamin Netanyahu and Tzipi Livni by Alon Ben-Meir Alon Ben-Meir is a professor of international relations at the Center for Global Affairs at NYU. He teaches courses on international negotiation and Middle Eastern studies. alon@alonben-meir.com Web: www.alonben-meir.com 13.03.2009 The collapse of the coalition negotiations between Likud Leader Benjamin Netanyahu and Kadima's Tzipi Livni over Netanyahu's refusal to commit to the two-state solution may force him to form a narrow-based right-of-centre government. Such a government is likely to impede any progress or end up disintegrating under domestic and American pressure to make important concessions for the peace process. The Obama administration must remain unequivocal in its pursuit of the two-state solution to prevent a further escalation of the conflict with unpredictable regional implications. Ms. Livni was absolutely correct in turning down Netanyahu's "generous" offer to join his government, where her party would be granted important portfolios in the coalition but denied any sound assurance that the peace negotiations would continue. Indeed, an Israeli government which is not committed to the two-state solution is sewing the seeds for incessant terror and violence that will do nothing but set the Israelis and Palestinians further apart. A narrow centre-right government is a recipe for paralysis as most of Netanyahu's coalition partners condition their joining the government on continuing the expansion of settlements." http://www.factsandarts.com/articles/the-collapse-of-the-coalition-negotiations-between-likud-leader-benjaminnetanyahu-and-kadimas-tzipi-livni/ ______________________ Years ago, in one of the discussion a lot like this one, I wrote something to the effect that, if you poke a dog in the eye with a stick and it attacks you, you have the right to kill it in self-defense, but you cannot evade moral responsibility for the outcome. To the extent that Israel, by illegal acts, provokes and perpetuates the conflict and refuses to come to the table in pursuit of an illegitimate end -- the legitimation, as a condition for making peace, of the illegal settlements on which it has no claim -- it cannot avoid responsibility for continuing conflict and for the possibility of escalation of that conflict and a widening war. Prof. Ben-Meir's analysis is very good in my opinion. I don't see that either the Wye River Accords or Netanyahu's speech to the Likud are particularly relevant. Between the Fourth Geneva Convention and resolution 242, Israel has no leg to stand on with regard to the settlements. I don't see why this thread is any more "about" Günter Grass's putative anti-Semitism (which is of no real consequence in the world) rather than his critique, which is at one and the same time an act of political theater, a reflection of broadly held views about what is provocation and what is response in the ongoing conflict between Israel and the Moslem world (not just with the weak Palestinians which is how Israel would wish the conflict to be and remain), and a moral criticism of Israel's position, all of which are of real consequence in the world. The only relevance of whether Grass is an anti-Semite is whether that is a basis on which effectively to negate the force and effect of what he wrote. I think that is clearly the very opposite of the case. The attacks on Grass only give him greater credibility.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 11:20am

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"liberals while they day they care about murderous Jew hatred see it only as one hatred among many and assign it a low priority' Perhaps because, in the present world, Jews are very little the sufferers from oppression and hatred. That is not to say that anti-Semitism does not exist and should not be fought, but that, in terms of present suffering and risk, it is therefore not the highest priority and cannot serve as an excuse for deeds that perpetuate conflict and cause suffering on a wide scale to millions of actual, currently living human beings. Of course, one can only do what is within one's power to do. It may not in fact be within the power of Israel to settle the conflict even by agreeing to live west of the Green Line. But in the absence of a sincere, good faith effort to do so, we will never know. That is to say, maybe the dog would attack anyway, but that is not a reason for continuing to poke it in the eye with a sharp stick.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 11:30am

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roidubouloi "Babarities? How would you know? Your idea of barbarity is, "When you do it to me it is a barbarity. When I do it to you it isn't." Because thinking about what is or is not right behavior is too tedious for you post-Holocaust." Roid is stuck in his own muck and keeps repeating notions that I and others have already disproven. He is incapable of carrying on a discussion on real issues because his grasp of reality is truly tenuous while his understanding of sociopolitical issues is second rate at best. Poor little rich boy Roid he is out of his depths and he can't stand it. He knows nothing but what has been inculcated into his hollow brain. I feel sorry for you.

- arnon1

April 13, 2012 at 12:23pm

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Malahat you are wasting your time with Roid. He is ignorant, willful, and malicious and that makes him ill equipped to judge for himself and to admit that he just doesn't have it him to see what is going on. He is a perfect specimen for a party man. When his "intellectual" bosses (professors) tell him that antisemitism is a problem he will keep following in their footsteps of denial. It's like 1939 when Germany and Russia made a pact to dismember Poland all the local communists agreed that it was no big deal. But when a year later the Nazis attacked the Soviet Union then every last little chit of a commie decided that the attack on Poland was something momentous. So to Roid the murder of Jewish little girls in Toulouse is no big deal right now, or forcing Jews to flee Malmo or firing rocket at Israeli towns. None of this matters right now. I sure wouldn't want to be Roid forty years from now.

- arnon1

April 13, 2012 at 12:33pm

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Noga, unless I'm misreading it, the passage on pages 406-8 in Peeling the Onion describes a meeting in somewhere called Haus Rupenhorn in Wannsee. That house has nothing to do with the infamous 1942 Wannsee Conference where the organizational decisions for the Final Solution were made by Heydrich and other Nazi bureaucrats -- that was the Villa Marlier, a completely different place that since 1992 has housed a museum and memorial site. I could be wrong but I think you're just mixing up the house in Grass's account with the actual site of the genocide planning. Regarding Israeli official responses, my personal opinion is that I think it could have been played smarter and more effectively. I don't think Grass's poem damaged Israel's standing and reputation -- which would be a ludicrous notion, as a poem no matter how objectionable has limited capability -- but I think there might be better ways of exploiting the potential damage to Grass's own standing than quick-draw indignation on every side. I'm not responsible for Grass's literary reputation, which rests on his work (or should, at least).

- ironyroad

April 13, 2012 at 1:17pm

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By the way, I thought that Noga's and arnon's comment that this post is about Gunther Grass and European antisemitism are very well taken, I just have to answer this nonsense: Tzipi Livni's descendance into irrelevance is direct result of advise such as the one by Alon Ben-Meir who writes that because she was"denied any sound assurance that the peace negotiations would continue.." she decided not to join the coalition. And I always thought that only assurance was as Americans' say "death and taxes". Foolish me. Kadima had the opportunity to be the balancing weight against the hardliner Herutniks and religious fanatics. It had the opportunity to influence events on the ground but it have chosen petty squabbles and political naivete instead. Now fractured and destroyed, it has only Ms. Livni to blame for listening to advice of foolish academics and left wing talking heads who can shoot their mouth but never have to pay the price. Rather than to bide the wishes of her Israeli electorate who desperately wanted her in the coalition she had decided to sit in the opposition and be a potted flower. This is her and Kadima's deserved political dead end.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 13, 2012 at 1:19pm

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irony:Your point is very well taken.Yes, it was an idiotic response by a Eli Yishai, a ridiculous and primitive character whose spiritual mentor claimed not long ago that Holocaust victims died because of non observance of the Shabat or some other such nonsense. Let this be a warning against knee jerk response by government officials.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 13, 2012 at 1:23pm

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Interesting view of nonsense. Netanyahu was organizing the government. He had his choice between the hardliner Herutniks and religions fanatics as his partner or Kadima as his partner. Which did he choose? And why wouldn't he? The evidence of his whole career is that their policy preferences are his. Had he chosen Kadima -- at the cost of concurring publicly with the two-state policy that the overwhelming majority of Israelis desperately prefer -- he could have had plenty of room for maneuver. But he didn't want room for maneuver. He wanted exactly what he has. Had Kadima joined his coalition, it and Livni would have been "a potted flower" giving political cover to exactly the same policies as Israel has now. What would have been influenced "on the ground?" Most likely the effort by Livni to exercise influence would have caused the whole thing to fall apart quickly and revert to its natural state which is where it is and where Netanyahu wants to be. The electorate wanted Kadima in the coalition and gave Kadima a plurality because it wanted Kadima's policy on the critical issue of peace. But it couldn't get it with Netanyahu organizing the government. Netanyahu had a choice. He has the government he chose. It is invariable that the right will blame someone on the left for its own actions. Indeed, inevitable.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 1:32pm

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"it was an idiotic response by a Eli Yishai, a ridiculous and primitive character" More blaming someone other than the responsible party. Netanyahu is the chief of state, not Yishai.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 1:33pm

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Asks malahat: "And who ever said that anti-Semitism is the excuse for deeds that perpetuate conflict or anything else?" All you have to do is read here a very short while. The invariable response to criticism of bad deeds by Israel is to point to anti-Semitism elsewhere or to worse deeds by some other actor elsewhere. The simple dichotomy that the apologists cannot grasp is that one is responsible for one's own actions first and foremost. Thus, it is not relevant whether someone elsewhere is doing something worse. That is likely not within one's control and hence not one's primary moral responsibility. One's own bad deeds are one's own primary responsibility. This childish amorality is evidenced clearly in arnon who only wants to take his little measuring rule and decide which are the worse deeds. And invariably whatever is done to a Jew is the worst deed hence that to which the entire world must devote its attention now, including any Jews who are themselves doing what they should not. Basically, as long as their are anti-Semites killing children or firing rockets, in the mind of arnon Jews are free to do whatever. arnon says: "So to Roid the murder of Jewish little girls in Toulouse is no big deal right now, or forcing Jews to flee Malmo or firing rocket at Israeli towns. None of this matters right now." All of it matters, and what can be said and done should be said and done. But it is not "we" in our community who are doing these things. Hence, it is not primarily our responsibility to stop doing them. We can only do our best to prevent them and engage others in preventing them. A large part of doing our best at that is not ourselves giving others cause for just grievance and conducting ourselves in a morally correct manner. And even if that does not assist in preventing bad deeds directed against us, we still need to conduct ourselves morally correctly. We are our own responsibility. The principle that one is responsible for one's own actions first and foremost is within the moral and intellectual grasp of children from about the age of six onward. This tells us everything we need to know about arnon's moral and intellectual age -- something south of six.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 1:50pm

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"I don't think Grass's poem damaged Israel's standing and reputation -- which would be a ludicrous notion, as a poem no matter how objectionable has limited capability . . . " Then why all the fuss? Why isn't the reaction, "Huh? It's a poem (and a poor one). And who's Günter Grass, and what does he know about nuclear arms anyway?"

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 1:56pm

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Kadima was not able to form a coalition since it's natural allies Labor and Meretz have been decimated. Livni gave up and Likkud, which had second largest number of mandates was selected to form government. Netanyahu's first choice was Kadima as a member of National Unity Coalition. Kadima and Livni as the head of the party chose not to play so Netanyahu formed a coalition with his natural allies. That's the way its done and that's the way it should be. Livni played hard to get thinking she is the only game in town and that she can do what's rarely possible, win a vote of non confidence. She lost the game of chicken and now she lost the game. Hey, the buck stops at Netanyahu but yes, the response was Yishai's. Just like in the US. When member of cabinet shoots his mouth, the President takes the blame.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 13, 2012 at 2:00pm

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All this nonsense of "criticism of bad deeds" is a shibboleth. Whoever utters it is "Good" whoever does not is "Bad". We are all sorry that we do not conform to roids unique Olympian standards. We are just people trying to live and raise families in the most dangerous area of the world, surrounded by enemies sworn to destroy us and barbarians who shoot rockets at us at will. Still, I don't think we done so bad considering... So go and find somebody else to pin your feelings of inadequacy on.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 13, 2012 at 2:09pm

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Yes, Netanyahu is with his natural allies, exactly where he wants to be, exactly where he chose to be, pursuing exactly the policies he wants to pursue. Had he been in a coalition with Kadima, that would have been marginally more difficult for him. Hence the choice he made. And the choice that Israel makes as it supports his coalition. In a democracy, people are also responsible for the government they elect, certainly when they support its policies and don't criticize them, which might change the policies or might lead to a change in government, or might just be futile criticism, the future being uncertain. The Fourth Geneva Convention is not an Olympian standard. Very few obligations, only those considered the most important, are written into law and adopted by virtually every country on earth including the State of Israel. Israel flagrantly violates the human rights of the Palestinians as set out in the Fourth Geneva Convention with no justification beyond greed for land. Given Israel's wealth, power, level of education, that's "not doing so good considering." I don't know how you feel. I suspect not much of anything. That's what comes of having to reconcile oneself to being an oppressor while going about ordinary life as if nothing is going on "over there." Just as likely, you are quite pleased to be colonizing another people. They shoot rockets at you at will, you colonize them at will. There's a lot to be said for the rest of the world, including the United States, simply ignoring you and allowing you to destroy each other. Unfortunately, your security depends on my country, and your country's actions affect my country and its security.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 2:25pm

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In the US, when a member of the cabinet does something contrary to the president's policy, the action is corrected and the errant member apologizes or resigns or is fired.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 2:28pm

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And the president publicly explain his own policy and repudiates that of the errant cabinet member.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 2:28pm

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Stop quoting the Geneva Convention to me. I know what it is and it's applications better than you. I had to learn the conduct on the battlefield which is probably more than you ever learned. So don't teach me because I and my children and my friends learned it on our own flesh. Israel is doing what every other country in the world has done and will continue to do with regard to territories. So, when the Palis decide that they finally want Palestine we will get the hell out of there, but not before. We are not going to be pursued by rag tag militias, terrorists, murderers and other such "peace loving refugees". I'll be damn if we are going to endanger and sacrifice our children so people like you will have a have claim on high morality. And frankly, I don't care if your lefty friends invite you to their parties or not. Official Israeli policy is that ex Nazis are persona non grata except in handcuffs. Whether Yishai misspoken or done something stupid it was not against "policy" per se. It was simply unwise in my opinion, that's all.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 13, 2012 at 2:48pm

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Speer was surprised at Bittrich's outburst (about atrocities committed by Nazi underlings for which he was technically responsible as commander): yes, indeed. And why was he surprised? Speer was surprised because the Waffen SS was supposed to be loyal to the Fuhrer to the End, and most of them were. Speer wasn't surprised at the atrocities. He was surprised that Bittrich was angry. GET IT? It is exactly the case that Gunter Grass didn't have to look at the individual dossiers of the 49 Waffen SS buried at Bitburg to know that these men shouldn't have been honored. He knew what they were. And as Alfred Grosser said, Grass in 1985 should have noted: "Wenn ich getotet worden ware, ware mein Grab zwischen diesen hier gewesen." This fact can't be whitewashed, though Grass for 50 years did so.

- ProfEthan

April 13, 2012 at 3:08pm

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"when the Palis decide that they finally want Palestine we will get the hell out of there, but not before. We are not going to be pursued by rag tag militias, terrorists, murderers and other such "peace loving refugees". I'll be damn if we are going to endanger and sacrifice our children so people like you will have a have claim on high morality." No evidence that Israel is willing to get the hell out of there now or ever. You claim to know the Geneva Convention, but you appear to understand nothing of what it says. The patent falsehood, endlessly repeated by Israelis, that colonizing the Palestinians in plain violation of the Convention is somehow necessary for, or even in aid of, Israel's security is the very reason that the world does not take Israel's claims about security very seriously any longer. It is understood that, no matter what the issue, you will claim security as justification for doing whatever it is you want to do, legal or not. Shavit certainly understands the relationship between the occupation as it is conducted and the de-legitimization of Israel. That will have consequences eventually. I am not sure what other territories you are referring to in which the inhabitants do not enjoy the same juridical rights as other inhabitants based on race, ethnicity, or religion. I believe that the last other such place was apartheid South Africa. Even the claim that Israel is no different in this regard than anyplace else is patently false. I don't really expect that Israel is going to do anything differently. I consider it pretty much a lost cause in that respect, too far in the grip of the right-wingnuts and messianic wingnuts. I do believe that eventually my country will get tired of compromising its own interests and security in order to support Israel's policy of illegal settlement. I don't know when or what will be the precipitating event. It may be something to do with Iran or something in the oil market, some new violence and riposte. I can't say. I will continue to say and do whatever little thing I can to bring that day forward or at the very least be able to say that I wasn't silent when these things were done. You can be sure that the party invitations are flocking in as a result. It is most of what we talk about at parties here. Doesn't matter to me whether you get invited to parties at all, with your religious wacko right-wing friends, your lefty friends, whomever. Just do it there, not here, why dontcha. _________________ Of course Speer wasn't surprised at the atrocities. Of course he was surprised that Bittrich was angry. That is the entire point. Isn't that obvious? And apparently the perpetrators were not people under Bittrich's command but Nazi party operatives who interfered with his orders. Of course, how this makes Grass culpable for being other than an assistant tank gunner in regular combat is obscure to say the least.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 3:39pm

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What is the attitude and reactions of the Arabs towards UN resolutions, Geneva accords, Oslo accords. Did they ever respect them. Or was the green light to attack terrorize Israel? Completely unreal. Don Quijote saw giants instead of wind mills. Saw Dulcinea instead of a full moon . The hysterical and the German nazi see Israel and they don't see theocratic Iran, Syria, Hamas, Hizbolah , Palestinian terrorists. For the hysterical hatred of Israel is the only thought of his brain. For the German nazi Jews are not supposed to be armed and defend themselves, they are supposed to behave like sheep going to the slaughter house. Again for the hysterical my recommendation is get involved with NAMI, National Alliance Mentally Ill. You will be helped. For the German nazi hide while you can.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 13, 2012 at 3:52pm

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Defensive colonization. What time do the serve dinner in that asylum? Does everyone eat together? Do you take turns? Are you part of the general population or on some special ward?

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 3:57pm

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For the hysterical is worth repeating. Look for help, NAMI , national alliance for the mental ill. Medications closaryl or geodon. They work wonders. Failed Geneva accords, UN resolutions, failed Oslo accords will disappear from your hysterical brain like magic. I don't know if your hatred for Israel will ever disappear from your hysterical brain, though.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 13, 2012 at 4:00pm

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Why don't you join the asylum hysterical Israel hater?

- JAIMECHUCH

April 13, 2012 at 4:02pm

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Israel has offered several times to get "get the hell out of there". In my life I remember at least 6 serious offers. Palis either said no or started a war. Israel got out of Gaza and got Hamas and Kassams in return. The Arabs are in a hold of a maximalist world view and they still think that they will return to their properties in Israel. By the way, if every refugee who claims that he owned land in Israel was telling the truth, this country should be the size of Canada. And please, stop with the colonization bullshit. This is another mantra by the left wing idiots who think that any land disagreement in which a third world country is involved is by definition "colonization" if the other claimant to the title is a Western country or Israel. I see no colonization. I see only stupidity and political machinations and misguided religiosity. As I said before countless times, I am for getting unilaterally out of there, but it is easy for me to speak like this because the security of the state does not depends on my decision. I think that you misunderstand Shavit. Shavit is blaming both the left and the right for the current delegimitization problems Israel is having and he is correct. I am quoting Shavit: "The right sinned by contaminating Zionism with the occupation, and the left sinned by abandoning the campaign over Zionism's justice. As a result, Israel lost not only its way, but its voice. The fundamental truths that brought us here, and which justify our existence here, have been lost and forgotten." You write that you dont' expect Israel to do anything differently. I know you are wrong. We are examining our policies, our defenses and our life and I know that we will make the correct choices. Don't think even for a moment that there is something you can teach us that we don't already know.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 13, 2012 at 4:22pm

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"In the US, when a member of the cabinet does something contrary to the president's policy, the action is corrected and the errant member apologizes or resigns or is fired." We don't have a Parliamentary system. (Some have complained about that we have an "imperial Presidential system."

- arnon1

April 13, 2012 at 5:26pm

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Malahat most intelligent people know that articles on wikipedia are often self serving.

- arnon1

April 13, 2012 at 5:28pm

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Maybe the hysterical frantic is celebrating Shabes. Oh oh the North Koreans violated UN sanction resolutions. Oy oy oy they join Arabs , terrorist palestinians, theocratic Iranians, massacring syrians. Geneva accords UN resolutions Oslo accords get no respect.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 13, 2012 at 6:09pm

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It is welcome to see the effort to find out what is known on a topic of interest rather than rely on speculation and imagination. I believe Bittrich was convicted for an incident in which captured French partisans were executed, not the same incident as the one recounted by Speer in Normandy where wounded Allied soldiers (pilots I think) given quarter by Bittrich were shot by Nazi party operatives. At lost one source said Bittrich was affirmatively found not to have given any order for the execution of partisans but was held to account for the actions of subordinates, a standard seldom if ever applied in any Allied army from WWII onward. In any case, Bittrich was the commander of the II Corps which included both the 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisions. The 10th, in which Grass served, was commanded by Harmel and he was never accused of any war crimes. What this says about the culpability of Grass is beyond me, except that there appears to be little evidence that his division was other than a regular combat unit and he a lowly assistant tank gunner. _____________________ "This is another mantra by the left wing idiots who think that any land disagreement in which a third world country is involved is by definition "colonization" if the other claimant to the title is a Western country or Israel. I see no colonization." As I have written here countless times, it is colonization because Israel refuses to incorporate the territories and accord the inhabitants the same political rights as other citizens. Obviously Israel does not do so because 1) it would be a demographic nightmare, the one-state solution and 2) the UNSC has forbidden it. If Israel did incorporate the territories and then failed to accord equal rights, it would unambiguously be guilty of apartheid, a crime against humanity. To avoid incorporation, Israel keeps the status of the territories as "occupied," something it has every right to do in the absence of peace. It can also take whatever measures in the territories are plausibly necessary for its own security but is otherwise obliged to allow the inhabitants as much of a normal economic life as possible, subject to the constraints of security. Where Israel has gone awry is by transferring its own population into occupied territory (in contrast, for example, to the free settlement of the territory it held after 1948 which was incorporated -- municipal law applies and all citizens/residents have the same rights). The problem is then compounded not only by the favorable legal treatment and access to resources accorded the settlers within the West Bank (which may well constitute apartheid), but the fact that the needs of their security then further burden the local population. This was discussed at some length by the Israeli justice on the International Court of Justice who concurred that the security fence, to the extent it was needed for the security of the otherwise illegal settlements, was itself illegal. Arafat was snookered at Oslo. He recognized Israel and then settlement activity continued despite this: "Article XXXI(7) of the Interim Agreement (1995) states: Neither side shall initiate or take any step that will change the status of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip pending the outcome of the permanent status negotiations." Israel always claimed that it was making no change in status because there was no legal change (evidencing among other things that Israel is itself quite aware of the importance of legal status), arguing that settlements could be removed as part of a final settlement. The Arabs said this was a lie, that Israel was de facto annexing territory and hence violating Oslo. History and Netanyahu have now shown us that the Arabs were right. In the Road Map, Israel again agreed to cease settlement construction, specifically including "natural growth" the weasel words that Israel lawyers used to claim previously that they were not violating undertaking to freeze settlement. Needless to say, this commitment to was worthless. In any case, given the Geneva Convention, there was no need for all of these agreements. Israel has always been obliged not to transfer its population into the settlements. The claim that settler families must be permitted to grow is specious. When families outgrow their quarters, they move. Other families replace them. As well, there are numerous "illegal" outposts created by settlers, whereupon the state furnishes roads, services, and defense and fails to enforce the law against these illegal takings. While Israelis claim that Israel is only doing what "everyone does," the state has in fact played an obvious game of cat and mouse with the law making clear that it is quite cognizant of its legal responsibilities and is deliberately evading them. That is what colonization consists of. If you don't see it, you either are not looking or don't want to see what is right in front of your nose.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 6:40pm

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Bringing up west bank settlements every time an issue dealing with Arab and European antisemitism comes is a sign that one is trying to desperately trying to justify this thousand year old hatred. As for the SS unit Gunter Grass served in,I don't care if he was a nurse there. The SS was part of State whose aim was to conquer Europe and beyond and to subject conquered people (the lucky ones) to perpetual servitude. Moreover the SS played a leading role in pacifying the conquered people and exterminating the "inferior Jews" but playing a leading role doesn't mean that other units of the regular German army didn't play a part. They did. The whole state apparatus was conscripted to achieve its aim of conquest and extermination. There never was a State like Nazi Germany though some countries from time to time did use similar measures for more limited aims. The mystery of how such a State could have arisen in post enlightened Europe is still part of an inconclusive debated and will remain so for the foreseeable future. That Guenter Grass would compare Israel to East Germany a successor State to Nazi Germany and which gave material aid to terrorists whose aim was to kill Jews shows that he still hasn't come to understand what he had been a part of any more than did the West German baader meinhof gang whose Jew hatred is legendary and who helped Palestinian terrorist factions hijack planes and kidnap Jews. The Israeli settlement activity on the West Bank is not relevant as an explanation of either the baader menihoff activity nor Gass hideous poem and certainly not to explaining Iran's desire to use nuclear weapons against the Jewish State. (Jews have not conquered any Iranian land nor have they threatened to thought the Iranian Hezbollah was tied to the murder of Jews in Argentina in two separate attacks.) To come up with tangible causes for Jew hatred one would have to include such activity as banking, trading, organizing workers, owning land anywhere in the world (Jews who owned farms in Argentina in the 1920's were said to be part of some nefarious colonizing effort targeting Argentina. And more recently some Israeli involved in an accidental forest fire was said by some government official to be part of a Zionist plot.) Antisemitism was an is real doesn't have its origin in West Bank settlement or even in the creation of the State of the Jews. To keep bringing up the settlements as the cause is to justify it.

- arnon1

April 13, 2012 at 7:49pm

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Yes, and no. The doctrine certainly exists, but there is a fair amount of legal controversy over its extent. In civil law, respondeat superior, responsibility for the acts of subordinates, is a commonplace. In criminal law the application has always been more limited, even outside the realm of military law, because we have the deep-seated notion that to be held criminally responsible, one must be morally culpable, to have knowingly done something prohibited or knowingly failed to do something one had a duty to due with the severe consequences reasonably foreseeable. (Caveat: I am a long way in time from the study of criminal law, although I was lucky to have been taught by the very distinguished Prof. Yale Kamisar. Anyone is invited to correct my formulation of the standard of criminal responsibility.) There has been some effort to supply a similar standard of "criminal negligence," gross failure to execute the duty of supervision of subordinates or failure to act in the face of known atrocities). Here is a good link that comes from yours: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_responsibility#Introducing_responsibility_for_an_omission Without a clear set of facts, I don't have much of an opinion about Bittrich, but from the little bit I read sounded as though he was initially convicted on a pretty tight standard of absolute liability for the acts of subordinates and then subsequently acquitted because he was found not to have met some standard of necessary personal responsibility. I think the legal standard today would not be the standard under which Bittrich was initially convicted but more like the standard under which he was subsequently acquitted. I doubt that in either case he could have been held responsible for the acts of the Nazi party agents, not under his command, who executed downed pilots to whom he had given quarter. But I am sort of winging it here as there are only hints from the literature about Bittrich

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 7:55pm

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The issue here is only exclusively anti-Semitism for those for whom anti-Semitism is always the exclusive issue. The substance of Grass's critique, right or wrong, and the political context in which it appears are also very much at issue. In particular, the increasingly widely held view that Israel's policies are an obstacle to peace and therefore are part and parcel of the risk of a wider war is definitely connected both to Grass's poem and to the occupation. In turn, the occupation cannot be understood apart from the settlements that de-legitimize what would otherwise be a legal military occupation (if that is it were being carried out in accordance with international law). Had Grass not been hyperbolic and suggested the possibility of a genocidal first-strike by Israel, it would be very hard to characterize what he wrote as anti-Semitic, although doubtless the usual suspects would attempt to do that. However, given the climate that has been created by Israel's defiance of international law, the relevant distinction is unlikely to be noticed by many and unlikely to be considered important by any who are not already essentially immune to what Grass says. What will be heard is Grass saying that Israel is a threat to peace, because that is already a widely held view. One that I share. As I said above, I don't personally think Grass was just confused. I think he was engaging in a deliberate lie to increase the attention and seduce those (most?) who don't pay close attention. Both Levy and Shavit, in different ways, recognize that there is a powerful need to pay attention to the political phenomena even though neither thinks Grass's poem was honest. Shavit explicitly recognizes that the occupation is the context in which this occurs and that it is having a corrosive and dangerous effect on support for Israel. It is possible that that would be true even if there were no settlements, only military occupation, but in that case it would at least be clear, if the Palestinians were not willing to make peace, that their desire for the destruction of Israel rather than the colonization of Palestine was the reason. As well, given what occurred when military occupation was withdrawn (prematurely in my view) from Gaza, there would be a very powerful argument that continued military occupation is not only legal but necessary in the absence of a final peace. Given that the settlements are both illegal and a strategic liability, the only reason to refuse even to freeze them, as Obama asked and as the United States has requested many times in the past, is the fraught political life of Israel in which right-wing extremists (and I include Netanyahu in that number, he is a Jabotinskyite to the core) hold the whip hand.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 8:15pm

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Thanks for the link, malahat. There is some pretty interesting stuff there.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 8:15pm

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Both law and history.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 8:16pm

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Neither the State of Israel nor the settlements are the cause nor even a cause of anti-Semitism in any direct way. There is an indirect relationship to which the Jewish Ambassador to Belgium, a son of a Holocaust survivor, called attention. Needless to say, he was then excoriated for being a self-hating Jew. A climate in which Israel is an outlaw and regarded as engaged in provocation that prolongs a dangerous conflict is one in which it is much easier for those who are anti-Semites to flourish. Many people don't pay close attention to fine distinctions. Thus, by creating the opportunity for strong and valid criticism of its human rights behavior, both Israel raises tensions and creates additional rhetorical space for arguments that a less astute and educated public will not recognize as anti-Semitic. This cycle is then self-reinforcing. Indeed, perversely, the constant attacks on those who do criticize Israel as being anti-Semites contributes to blurring the distinction between valid criticism and anti-Semitism. When everyone is an anti-Semite, from Thomas Friedman to Ambassdor Guttman, no one is an anti-Semite. The accusation loses all force.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 8:31pm

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Hysterical they are self hatred Jews. And you are a failed mediocrity no more no less. The liberated territories are as legal as they can be a source of employment for Palestinian construction workers. They never had it so good. And the theocratic Iran and the German nazi and you can not stand progressive Israel. You are boiling in your hysterical frantic mediocrity. Name any international accords the Arabs have respected and obeyed. Not one. Continue with your hysterical delusions. Get help from NAMI , national alliance for the mentally ill , medications closaryl or geodon, will do wonders for you.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 13, 2012 at 8:46pm

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"Had Grass not been hyperbolic and suggested the possibility of a genocidal first-strike by Israel, it would be very hard to characterize what he wrote as anti-Semitic,...." But he did do that, didn't he. "although doubtless the usual suspects would attempt to do that." And of course I am the usual suspect, right? I do not see all critics of Israel as antisemitic nor do I see Obama whom I support as anti_Israel. However there is enough antisemitism out there and enough evidence that to shut one's eyes when it does arise is a sign of not facing reality. "However, given the climate that has been created by Israel's defiance of international law..... What will be heard is Grass saying that Israel is a threat to peace, because that is already a widely held view. One that I share." Which explains your inability to distinguish between genuine criticism of Israeli policy and antisemitic tirades. Interesting that many of those who cannot "distinguish between genuine criticism of Israeli policy and antisemitic claims happen to be people in countries (Norway Sweden, Austria, Hungary, Argentina, etc. ) which have had official antisemitic policies at one time of another before WW2. And how is Israel more of a threat to world peace than China, Pakistan, Iran, India (with its occupation of Kashmir) Russia with its genocidal policies in Chechnya, Turkey (Cyprus, the Kurds) or another dozen countries with equally aggressive policies towards their minorities or neighbors? However, the hatred of Israel is all out of proportion to its alleged "crimes." But the Roid has told us that he too considers Israel a "treat to world peace." No wonder he can't tell the difference between genuine criticism and calls for its destruction.

- arnon1

April 13, 2012 at 8:50pm

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Great post Malahat. I grew up among many Holocaust survivors and I heard many stories of decent individual Germans who helped Jews so your account doesn't come as a complete surprise. I have always made a distinction between individual in even the worse regimes and the majority of people (the crowd who like to go along to get along). It is this difference that has given me the hope that humanity can better itself in some distant future. I just don't expect that future to be manana or the day after; maybe the day after that.

- arnon1

April 13, 2012 at 8:59pm

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Shabbat Shalom to you too, malahat.

- arnon1

April 13, 2012 at 9:24pm

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I didn't say Israel was more of a threat to world peace than China, or India, or any other place. I didn't make any comparison. Israel is in an armed conflict with a large nation, the nation of Islam, that is still in the process of organizing itself, but is doing so bit by bit, as evidenced by Pakistan's (the nation I consider the greatest threat to world peace) acquisition of nuclear weapons. The Moslem world also controls much of the world's oil supply. It is dangerous for Israel, certainly, but also dangerous for the world particularly becuase this growing, as yet poorly organized power, is not in control of itself and may never be. What is clear is that its power and ability to threaten is growing. Prolonging that conflict for a few apartments in Jerusalem and land no which Israel has no legitimate claim is foolhardy and reckless, both for Israel and for a lot of other people. It is on a par with bear baiting, and basically over nothing more than religious sentiment. It is the sort of craziness that only religious nuts and right-wingnuts could engage in. And they do. I don't deny the legitimacy of the sentiments, but the practical reality is that this was settled by the world body with a partition plan, and partition there will be. For Israel to continue to defy the UN, regardless of its sentiments, is reckless. That is what makes Israel a threat to peace -- the reckless conduct of its rightwing government, under the additional pressure of messianic lunatics who are every bit as crazy as the mullahs of Iran, maybe moreso. The game of trying to figure out which threat is the bigger threat to world peace on a given day is every bit as pointless as the Cyprus Game or the game of lining up atrocities and various lesser human rights violations to decide which is worse. The situation in the Middle East, where two powers are already armed with nuclear weapons, is threatening enough to make any short list.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 9:49pm

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That should read, "Regardless of its sentiments, for Israel to continue to defy the UN is reckless." I say that the religious right in Israel may be crazier than the mullahs because I think the mullahs are for the most part religious politicians, more in the vein of medieval popes than bona fide religious nuts. I think they use religion for political power and there is plenty of method to what looks like madness from our point of view. In contrast, I think the religious right in Israel are full-fledged religious nuts. They are not using religion for power. They think they are talking to God.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 9:54pm

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"One perhaps distinction-without-a-difference that I make between the Wehrmacht and the SS is that the Wehrmacht was originally constituted as the military force for the defense of the state, while the SS was always constituted as a volunteer military force for the defense of Hitler in particular and the Nazi Party in general." But because of Versailles, the Wehrmacht was tiny when Hitler came to power. He enlarged it from roughly 100,000, top-heavy with officers, to an army of millions. Thus, the Wehrmacht was also Hitler's creation.

- roidubouloi

April 13, 2012 at 9:58pm

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It started 4/6 the mediocre hysterical failure continuous his vomiting . I have been watching over the movie Lawrence of Arabia. Famous remark by the British officer of the Arab Affairs Branch (Claude Rians): it appears that we are going to have a powerhouse run by British with an Arab flag, do you think it was worth it? In talking to the American correspondent (David Kennedy): those that tell lies, like me, know where they are. Those like you, that tell half lies, in going back, never know where to find them. Well what is going on there, is one is half mad. The other is totally unscrupulous. That is mayor Lawrence, and General Allenby. Ah I remember Allenby street in Tel Aviv. I bought real Cuban cigars, that made me totally dizzy, but they tasted terrific. That was in 1991, when I had the wonderful experience to meet Itzhak Shamir and his wonderful wife. Benjamin Netanyahu, the young tiger and his beautiful wife Sarah, pregnant at the time. Bibi spoke to us in that wonderful Philadelphia accented English. We also met Moshe Arens, then defense minister . It was in Ariel, where the hospital was dedicated to the memory of Bibi's brother fallen in the Entebe rescue. Ariel, forward city of the liberated super legal territories. The liberated territories where the new pioneers dwell forward with ever present progress. This is the true new Middle East. The Jewish miracle of miracles. Baruch atah Adonai, sheheyanu be kimanu be hiyanuh la zman azeh. Amen.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 14, 2012 at 12:18am

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The mullahs are religious politicians.,!!! Are they murderous savage fanatics killing Jews in Argentina. Providing thousands of missiles to Hizbullah and Hamas killing civilians in Israel. You fetid Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew defender of fanatic Iranians and murderous German nazi. You are not only an inept failed mediocrity, you are a vile hemo..roid , roi...dent. king of the rotten baloney. The fanatic theocratic Iranians will soon be destroyed forever.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 14, 2012 at 12:41am

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The liberated territories are progressing under the modern pioneers. Pious Jews full of peace and love for humanity. The best of the best of Judaism. The true Zionism of the modern profit Theodore Herzl. no venomous vermin can stop this progress. The Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew hater of Israel, was a failure, is a failure totally mediocre. A coward .

- JAIMECHUCH

April 14, 2012 at 12:50am

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“Israel is in an armed conflict with a large nation, the nation of Islam, that is still in the process of organizing itself, but is doing so bit by bit, as evidenced by Pakistan's (the nation I consider the greatest threat to world peace) acquisition of nuclear weapons. The Moslem world also controls much of the world's oil supply. It is dangerous for Israel, certainly, but also dangerous for the world particularly becuase this growing, as yet poorly organized power, is not in control of itself and may never be. What is clear is that its power and ability to threaten is growing.” I would put it differently. This inchoate Muslim world power is in conflict with Israel and also potentially with much of the non-Muslim world. Hence Israel is only a front line State in this dangerous game. It’s also obvious that in this conflict what Israel does is only of marginal utility in settling in solving the conflict and while I think that it’s to Israel’s advantage to evacuate most settlements in the West Bank and annex those closer to Jerusalem I am not kidding myself that this in itself will matter much in the ultimate adjudication of the conflict. Neither international law nor the UN will matter, what will matter is power. If the Muslims and Arabs think they can destroy Israel militarily they will do so no matter what international institutions or law says. Using your formulation, not Israel but the “coming Islamic super power” is a danger to world peace.

- arnon1

April 14, 2012 at 1:28am

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Arye Eldad: Israel must annex Judea and Samaria “It is time for Israel to annex Judea and Samaria and put a halt to the dangerous and ultimately doomed land-for-peace process”. Political Zionist Arye Elad has no political power. That is why He promote a solution that expired decades ago. This was the message by Israeli lawmaker Arye Eldad (National Union) to Christian Zionists gathered at Israel’s Knesset on Thursday. Hundreds of Christian supporters of Israel gathered for the fourth Jerusalem Assembly, an event hosted by the parliament’s Christian Allies Caucus. In attendance were 115 church leaders representing tens of thousands of churches and hundreds of millions of Christians from around the world. The highlight of the gathering was a speech delivered by Israeli lawmaker Arye Eldad (National Union), who told the Christians it is time for Israel to annex Judea and Samaria and put a halt to the dangerous and ultimately doomed land-for-peace process. “The entire world wants two states for two peoples and to end the occupation,” Eldad said. “I am in favor of ending the Muslim occupation that began in the seventh century and establishing a Palestinian state in Jordan.” What is today known as “Jordan” was originally part of the territory of the British Mandate for Palestine, all of which was promised to the Jews in the Balfour Declaration and at the San Remo Conference in 1920. In historical and legal terms, all of what is today Jordan, Israel and the so-called “West Bank” forms a single territorial unity, and the Arabs who live in those various territories are of one ethnic and cultural background. The “Jordanian” and “Palestinian” national identities are modern inventions. Eldad believes that with the Arab Spring revolutions threatening the current ruling regime in Jordan, it is only a matter of time before the Palestinian majority there takes over and Jordan “will become the Palestinian state it already is.”

- JAIMECHUCH

April 14, 2012 at 1:59am

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judea samaria Palestinian to Israeli losses: 0 to 5 During routine Friday riots, some 150 Palestinian Arabs hurled stones at Jewish soldiers near Kadim village in Samaria. Five soldiers were lightly wounded. There were no losses among the Palestinians. Constrained by crazy orders, the Israelis could not open fire on the murderous crowd, though live fire would have stopped the Arabs immediately and prevented further incidents for some time 24 March 2012 Posted in feature, war in Judea and Samaria. Criminal investigation will placate the leftists The Attorney General ordered police to open an investigation into housing construction in the village of Shiloh in Samaria. Mind you, construction at the oldest Jewish site, the site of our first permanent Tabernacle location, the terrace of which can still be seen there, is now illegal due to our efforts to keep peace. The investigation is entirely useless, as was the one opened before in Amanah. The state already conducts re-zoning to allocate land for construction. The only purpose of the criminal investigation is to satisfy Peace Now, which petitioned the High Court. 02 March 2012 Posted in settlements Palestinians prefer living in sewage for political reasons Twenty-one out of twenty-two Arab villages refused the government’s offer to connect them, free of charge, to a sewage pipeline built with taxes paid by Jewish villages in Samaria. 05 February 2012 Posted in Arabs War of stones intensifies According to an army report, Arabs intensified rock and firebomb attacks on Jewish cars across Judea and Samaria after they succeeded in Palmer’s murder. There is little that the army can do because such murder attempts are hard to prove, and courts sentence the Arabs to minor terms. 18 January 2012 Posted in terrorism Netanyahu vetoes a reasonable solution to the outpost problem On the PM’s orders, the Justice Minister rejected a draft which would legalize almost all outposts in Judea and Samaria while compensating the Palestinians for the private land taken from them. In very few cases are outposts built on private Arab land, and in those cases ownership was established well after the construction. The bill could well pass the Knesset. 19 December 2011 Posted in settlements Bibi is only technically right on central committee With two weeks left until the election of the Likud central committee, Netanyahu changed the allocation of seats to increase the power of the cities against the settlements in Judea and Samaria. His move is theoretically correct because the allocation is indeed skewed if Likud wants proportional representation of its voters on the committee. But that misallocation has stood for twenty years, and every other Likud leader has preserved it in order to keep the party distinctly conservative. Netanyahu’s idea is to weaken opposition to the eventual withdrawal from the West Bank. He may be mistaken, though. With all the support the withdrawal would enjoy from leftists and Arabs, he should be more concerned with maintaining a shred of support for his more conservative policies in the central committee. 30 November 2011 Posted in settlements Rabbis, IDF make religious soldiers hostage of their squabble The latest round of confrontation between West Bank rabbis and the army centers around the prohibition for religious soldiers to attend live singing performances by women. The army is fond of such performances. The issue is very old, and not particularly important compared to the many other religious transgressions occurring in the army. The brass provoked the conflict by punishing a few religious soldiers who quietly left a singing event. The army has a problem. Most conscripts assigned to combat units come from Judea and Samaria. If they are not ultra-religious themselves, they at least sympathize with the yeshiva draftees. But the army remains institutionally leftist, which deeply offends their values. Instead of coming to terms with growing religious sentiment, the army seeks to converting conscripts to secularism. 21 November 2011 Posted in army Arab murderers arrested Shabak swiftly found and detained the two Arabs who threw the stone that killed a Jewish family. Three other Arabs who had robbed the dead were arrested as well. The Arabs come from a village near Hebron, and they are just normal Arabs. Meanwhile, other Arabs hurled rocks at a Jewish school bus in Judea. Because of such attacks, Jewish children ride in bulletproof school buses, the only such children in the world. 07 October 2011 Posted in terrorism Cozy relationship continues After Abbas’ UN bid Israel might have been expected to pressure her old enemy. Tax transfers, however, continued unabated. The Palestinian chieftains had no trouble transiting Israel to get to the UN, and Israel continues to supply the PA with electricity. Now the Israeli government is contemplating ‘goodwill gestures’ toward Fatah, such as ceding larger chunks of Judea and Samaria to Arab control. 06 October 2011 Posted in peace process Israel sanctions pogroms The Chief of the Civil Administration of Judea and Samaria, an Israeli government official, has ordered his forces to carry out demolition orders only against Jewish homes, never against Arab structures. This policy has been in effect for many years, but only now has it been put in writing. Tens of thousands of illegal Arab homes clutter the area, and from time to time Israeli courts order a few of them demolished. Now the Civil Administration refuses to carry out even those rare orders. 13 September 2011 Posted in feature, settlements Rabbi Kahane’s videos There is an ftp server at ftp://ftp.samsonblinded.org You can download Rabbi Meir Kahane’s videos (right-click and save): NEW: DVDs with Rabbi Kahane’s lectures in Hebrew, English, and Russian. DVD 1 DVD 2 DVD 3 DVD 4 Brandeis National Press Club Beverly Alan Dershowitz Yeshiva University Thunderbird Motel Why Be Jewish? Part 1 Why Be Jewish? Part 2 Why Be Jewish? Part 3 Sonya Friedman Minnesota University 60 minutes Axelrod Congregation Shaar HaShamayim Greenberg Kach annual dinner Kach promotion Linkolnwood State of Judea Yeshiva of the Jewish Idea Young Israel The video and audio quality is considerably better than what is available on YouTube. The files are large, so use a download manager such as FlashGet. You can also view small-screen copies on Google Video: Yeshiva University Debates with Alan Dershowitz National Press Club Beverly Brandeis University Why be Jewish? Part 1 Why be Jewish? Part 2 Why be Jewish? Part 3 This is a very important book by Rabbi Meir Kahane: Uncomfortable Questions for Comfortable Jews 24 June 2011 Posted in Articles A word of truth from the Palestinians Palestinian negotiator Erekat remarked that peace negotiations in Israel are over. It testifies to Jewish madness that he spoke at a conference in Tel Aviv. Indeed, on that same day Israel sent the PA $100 million in tax transfers. Erekat is definitely right. Everyone knows the conditions for peace for each side, and they are irreconcilable: The Palestinians cannot forfeit their ‘right of return,’ and we Israelis cannot accept it. Everything else is settled: the Israeli government has agreed to abandon the Temple Mount and outlying settlements, and the PA agreed to leave three settlement blocs to the Jews. Given the situation, a Palestinian declaration of statehood is the most logical course of action. It simply avoids the problem. The Palestinian government is fine with de facto abandonment of the right of return. The one problem the PA faces with statehood is that refugees would be able to move from Lebanon and Syria into the West Bank, breaking the fledgling state. The Palestinians would love for Israel to continue guarding their borders. A de jure Palestinian state is not bad at all for Israel, the only better alternative being to expel the Arabs from Judea and Samaria. 16 May 2011 Posted in feature, peace process The army of whom? Maj-Gen Amidror was known for his right-wing views, thus his appointment as Israel’s NSC head raised some eyebrows. Amidror quickly downplayed his right-wing credentials by slamming rabbis who encourage insubordination in the army. Amidror said their actions posed an existential danger to Israel. Huh, we thought Iranian and Pakistani nukes were the existential danger. In fact, rabbis only call for insubordination when the army is sent against its own people, to destroy Jewish houses in Judea and Samaria. And if that’s a problem for Amidror, he can always encourage Tel Aviv draft dodgers to join the army and carry out the eviction orders. But IDF cannot afford to rely on settlers for manpower and then order them to destroy their own homes. 17 March 2011 Posted in army, feature Jews exhibit a bit of normality In several incidents, angry Jews in Judea and Samaria vandalized Arab property after the Arabs murdered a Jewish family in the village of Itamar. Shamefully, Israeli police vowed to prevent these acts of retaliation. As if sentencing an Arab or two would bring the Jewish family back to life. The terrorists will serve a few years and then they will be exchanged. Wholesale retaliation is the only proper way to prevent future terrorism. 13 March 2011 Posted in terrorism Israeli racism: Arabs have more rights Arab MK Sarsour said that Obama can go to hell after the US vetoed the UN resolution condemning Israeli settlements in Judea and Samaria. When Lieberman uttered similar words about Mubarak, Israeli leaders rushed to apologize. This time there were no apologies, because everyone understands that Jewish and Arab MKs are not alike: the Arabs do not represent the state, despite their parliamentary status. Sarsour also decried Obama’s loyalty to Israel. Presumably, Sarsour himself, though a member of the Israeli Knesset, is not guilty of such criminal affection. 21 February 2011 Posted in Arabs IDF disarms Jews Judea and Samaria Division Command ordered the confiscation of firearms that had been distributed among settlers during the Second Intifada. The government knows that it cannot implement the peace accords, which would require it to evict tens of thousands Jews from their homes in Judea and Samaria, and wants to disarm them so that they flee before the Palestinians. 14 January 2011 Posted in feature, security Terror escalates Four people in Israel have been wounded by artillery fire from Gaza. An armed Arab terrorist has been shot dead at an IDF checkpoint near Tubas village in Samaria. Arabs tried to lynch the residents of a Jewish house in Silwan, Jerusalem. Dozens of Arabs attacked Israeli Border Police at a Silwan checkpoint. It looks like a peace agreement with them is around the corner. 09 January 2011 Posted in terrorism This time, it was the Palestinians Palestinians fired shots at a Jewish shepherd in Samaria, but failed to injure him. This is almost not news. But imagine the outcry if Jews had fired at a poor Palestinian shepherd. 31 December 2010 Posted in pro-Arab Israel in provisional boundaries Unable to sell their citizens the concessions necessary for a peace treaty with the Palestinians, Israeli leaders are trying to push Abu Mazen into accepting an interim agreement. According to the terms of this agreement, a Palestinian state will be established in temporary borders, with Jerusalem and the settlements not to be discussed for some time. The Palestinians rightly refuse to accept this plan: once their state is created, international pressure on Israel will wane, and they will never get Jerusalem (unless they take it over demographically). In the meantime, Israel is falling into the same trap. Jews tread the very path of incremental concessions which Palestinians refuse. Under the 1972 Egyptian peace offer, we could have had a peace treaty with all Muslim states by abandoning the West Bank. Today, we would only have an agreement with the Palestinians. One by one, Israel surrenders her bargaining chips: we evacuated Gaza, withdrew from most of Judea and Samaria, and have unofficially agreed to abandon the Temple Mount. Israeli bargaining power diminishes while international pressure on us increases to stop squabbling over minute details. It is not Palestine, but Israel that is being pushed into provisional borders by the settlement construction freeze. Just as the Palestinians would have sat in their provisional borders dreaming of Jerusalem, Israel holds the settlements dreaming of their expansion. Palestine’s actual borders are now firm and won’t become less so, while Israel’s borders shrink with every new initiative. We play on ourselves exactly the trick we intended to play on the Palestinians. 24 November 2010 Posted in feature, peace process Harming whom? The settlers of Judea and Samaria are protesting the upcoming construction freeze with an odd strike: schools and municipal services are closed down. And why would the government care that some villages in the West Bank do not remove their garbage? 21 November 2010 Posted in settlements « Older Entries

- JAIMECHUCH

April 14, 2012 at 2:12am

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I wouldn't disagree with that formulation, but the conclusion regarding the settlements is the same. Geography means that Israel cannot escape the Moslem world. It will always need nuclear weapons as an ultimate deterrent and it will always have to be vigilant. But its safest place is not as the "vanguard" of conflict between the west and the Moslem world, a conflict that may go on in one form or another for quite a long time, a century at least, probably two, maybe more. The history of Moslem losses and colonization, after having been at one time the prospective master of Europe, has a great deal to do with this. Indeed, the conflict isn't new; it is ancient and some of what moves it is murky to the players. Israel depends on the support of the western community. Nuclear weapons or not, it cannot endure in isolation. As things stand, Israel taxes American policy and interests and European policy and interests and also effectively holds itself out as the lightning rod for what is in fact a conflict between the Moslem world and the west. That means that Israel is taxing the interests of a community of 900 million to which it belongs and keeping itself as the flashpoint of conflict between the 900 million and a billion Moslems. That is the wrong place to be. Taxing the community of it which it is and must be a part over nothing, and it is nothing, is what makes no sense. Insisting on being and remaining the flashpoint of the conflict between giants, over nothing, makes no sense. Strategically, Israel doesn't need the settlements. It can evacuate them or let them be part of Palestine or some combination. What it needs is to extinguish forever, with the blessing of the UN and the west and the public agreement of the Arabs (regardless of their intentions or hidden designs) the claimed Palestinian right of return. It would have been nice to get security control of the Jordan, as Rabin said was necessary, but I think Israel's procrastination has perhaps put that out of reach. That doesn't ensure that Israel won't still be drawn into the conflict over god knows what period of time, but it should be in the rear, not in the van. Metaphorically, Israel is fighting way above its weight class. It should look to get out of that situation and give the heavies on its team as much room for maneuver as it can. The settlements are in the way because they undermine the American project of international law, as embodied in the UN, and American diplomatic strategy and flexibility. They are completely alienating Europe. They are an absolute strategic liability and Israel is nuts to leave its head in a noose to satisfy a bunch of mystical, religious zealots. They're just apartments, and in the midst of a hostile population.

- roidubouloi

April 14, 2012 at 2:32am

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Very good, Jaime. You have unintentionally published a compelling account of the ultimate and inevitable failure of the settlement policy. They smart thing now is to get something for them before it is too late even to do that.

- roidubouloi

April 14, 2012 at 2:42am

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Saving Lives in Judea and Samaria – The Untold Story By: Tazpit News Agency Published: January 25th, 2012 You are currently on page: 1 2 All Pages        PRINT      Photo Credit: Ehud Amiton A common phenomenon in Judea and Samaria is that many Palestinians turn to the IDF and to Israeli medical emergency services to receive medical attention. Local Arabs, whether ill or wounded, receive immediate life-saving medical treatment regardless of existing security tensions, and with no prerequisites. A recent case is that of a two year old infant who was treated by Magen David Adom (MDA) medics and the Kfir battalion medical staff after being critically wounded by his father, who accidentally hit him with his car. The family brought the child to the main gate at Neve Tsuf, where he received first-responder treatment. Two weeks later, IDF medical officials and local volunteers treated two Palestinians that were brought to Neve Tsuf after falling from a high elevation and suffering moderate injuries to their limbs and spinal columns. They were later evacuated to a hospital in Ramallah. Neve Tsuf is one of several Jewish settlements that provide medical care to local Arabs. Israeli medical services primarily tend to Palestinians wounded in car accidents throughout Judea and Samaria, usually between Palestinian vehicles. An agreement was signed between Palestinian Red Crescent and the MDA, ensuring the use of MDA’s advanced equipment by Red Crescent. By virtue of this agreement, Red Crescent ambulances pass through military checkpoints without inspection, and occasionally abuse this privilege to transport weapons. Medical treatment by Israeli medical officials is provided even during periods of increased security tensions, such as Arab riots, stone throwing, and various assaults on Jewish residents of Judea and Samaria, including a stone-throwing attack on an ambulance from Neve Tsuf over a month ago. And yet, the humanitarian aid provided to Arabs in Judea and Samaria has not been picked up on or published by the media. MK Aryeh Eldad of The National Union party, a former commanding officer of the military medical corps in the IDF, stated: “In any case when emergency medical care is required, it is to be provided regardless of gender, race, nationality or religion, whether he’s a friend or foe. Thus, the IDF and MDA must offer medical care if it is needed immediately, eligibility for medical insurance not withstanding. Every doctor and medic in the army takes an oath to conduct themselves in this fashion. The world at large knows little about these occurrences; “the world” is more interested in incidents of harm brought to Arabs rather then cases of treating them. There is no doubt the world should know more about these activities”. Jerusalem district MDA spokesman, Danny Rotenberg, added that the MDA, as a national rescue organization, provides emergency care services throughout the entire State of Israel, including Judea and Samaria. He said that the population of Judea and Samaria includes an Arab segment, and when the MDA receives an emergency call, it is understood that they are morally obligated to provide medical care via the medical teams dispersed throughout Judea and Samaria. When asked about the funding of medical treatment for Palestinians, Rotenberg points out that it’s a sensitive issue. The MDA never stipulates the provision of medical care with the ability to pay for it. First, medical care is provided, and then the issue of reimbursement is examined on an individual basis. “We hope that through cooperation in emergency cases of this kind, we are acquiring ambassadors of good will on the basis of the love of human kindness regardless of religion, age or nationality”. Avigdor Shatz, Director of the security department in the Benyamin regional municipality, said in a statement: “This phenomenon exists in other settlements in Judea and Samaria, although not as frequently as in Neve Tsuf, which is situated on a main route, and therefore is more accessible to the Palestinian population”. He added that as a professional he offers support to anyone who requires it. “I think this is a part of a basic set of ethics which anyone who provides medical care should have. And this is how we conduct ourselves. The number of Palestinian casualties in car accidents we treat is immense, and does not consist only of those who seek care at the front gate”. When posed with the question of whether the Palestinian population and their representatives conveyed any expressions of gratitude, he replied that there is a big gap between what actually happens and between what the politicians report on our side, as well as what is publicized outwardly. “This aspect is of less interest to me, I don’t think the Palestinian Authority has expressed any gratitude except in two cases which occurred in the Palestinian Authority’s territory. In one case, a large purification facility collapsed while the concrete was being laid, and we came and rescued tens of casualties and treated them. In another case, a building in El-Bira collapsed; an entire floor fell in, we arrived with other medical teams such as the IDF’s search and rescue unit, and provided medical care and evacuated the wounded. In the first case the engineer’s company which designed the facility published a newspaper ad thanking us, and in the second case the governor of Ramallah thanked us personally”. Continue reading: 1 2 All Pages        PRINT     About the Author: You might also be interested in:   The Palestinian Super Victims  Metzitzah B’Peh – Where We Are And Where We Need To Go  ‘You Don’t Read A Terrorist His Miranda Rights’: An Interview With Professor Michael Widlanski  Sefira And The Battle With Our Evil Inclination  Nuke Negotiations With Iran Put Possible Israeli Attack On Backburner  Video: Iran Vs. Israel – Back to the Future  Egyptian Team Must Wear ‘Zionist’ Uniform or Play in their Skivvies  Did You Know ‘Brokeback Mountain’ Star Jake Gyllenhaal Was a Tzadik?  This Just In: Warner’s ‘Maccabees’ Suspended, Mel Gibson Stil Hates Jews  Jewish Press Radio: Journey Into Passover  Judge Throws Out Suit Calling on Minnesota to Divest its Israeli Bonds  Two Essays Explore Role of Anti-Nuke Fatwa in Guaranteeing Iran’s Nuclear Program Stay Peaceful  IDF Captures Terrorist Armed with Seven Explosives  Resurrection of the Dead: New Police Presence on the Mount of Olives  The Failure of the Palestinian Venture  Knesset Speaker: Elections in September; New Law Will Reduce Power of High Court; Pollard Will Go Free  Are You Allowed to Cry ‘Heil Hitler’ in a Crowded City Hall?  With JP Morgan Purchase, Conduit Becomes Israel’s First Billion Dollar Internet Company  Egypt Sending 2,000 officers into the Sinai, Well Above Treaty Limits, to Fight Rampant Terrorism  Iran Busts ‘Major Israeli Terrorist Network’  Opinion: Jonathan Pollard is Dead  Video: Under the Prayer Shawl – Secrets of the Priestly Blessing  ‘The Unchosen Ones,’ New Reality TV Show, Will Follow Dropout Hasidim  No More Hebrew Classes in North Texas University, Registrar Glitch Blamed Click to use the JewishPress.com comment form, and to make all comments visible (one comment so far)  

- JAIMECHUCH

April 14, 2012 at 4:17am

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http://www.c4israel.org/c4i/projects/help_the_jews_at_home/communities_in_judea_and_samaria_christian_friends

- JAIMECHUCH

April 14, 2012 at 4:37am

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The Islamic conflict with Israel is driven by Islamic conflict with the West and not otherwise as some would like us to believe. Israel is just a symbol of the "corrupt West" which points out to the Islamic impotence and low self esteem. Britain defeat of Ottoman Empire and end of Sunni caliphate ended the process of Islamic decline which began with the Turkish defeat at the gates of Vienna. British desire to be the midwife of the new Abbasid empire in Baghdad and British and French habit of creating non previously existing countries with a stroke of pen did not improve the situation. Yes, Israel is a part of the ME and I think some Arab countries are starting to realize that. The threat of Shia Iran is creating new realities in the Arab world. It will take time until all this will trickle down to the "Arab street" but it will. When Egypt will elect it's first Islamic Brother for president, when famine will spread through the land of the Nile this will signal beginning of the end of Islamism. That of course only if the West foolishly will not support Egyptian Islamic regime in the name of Human Rights or dignity or some other such slogan. I said this before on this pages and I will say it again. The settlements are an issue only for people who do not understand the geopolitical situation on the ground and the politics of Israel/Palestine. Large areas of settlements around Jerusalem will be annexed to Israel under any peace agreement (if there ever be one). All other what I call "mobile home on the hill" settlements will be vacated unless the Palis agree to keep the settlers in their territory which I doubt. The annexed areas will be given all the civil rights enjoyed by Israeli citizens whether Arab or Jews as they already do in Jerusalem. Those willing to accept Israeli citizenship will be allowed to vote in general and municipal elections and those that do not will be given a resident alien status. If the settlers of Hebron are willing to live in a Palestinian polity and if the Palis are willing to accept them, more power to them. Regarding religious right talking crazy, pleeeeese... All religious right talks crazy. However, I think that Israeli religious right is not half as crazy as others. Have you ever listened to Pat Robertson? The man talks to God on regular basis. Or Yusuff al Qaradawi? But since this is about Gunter Grass I would like to quote Shavit's new article which succinctly discusses the myriad of responses to it: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/gunter-grass-and-the-mute-left-1.423895

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 14, 2012 at 8:47am

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Talking of antisemitism: From the blog "Simply Jews": http://simplyjews.blogspot.ca/2012/04/jews-or-israelis-no-matter-really.html "More than 200 Jewish students attending Florida Atlantic University in Boca Raton, were surprised to find "eviction notices" posted to their dorm room doors on Friday. The students later found out that the fake notices were placed by the Students for Justice in Palestine." I would say that the Jewish students in this case are a target no more relevant and/or legitimate than the three kids and their rabbi teacher in Toulouse murdered by that "martyr". I would also say that the line that was supposed to separate the Jews in general from the Israelis in particular seems to have totally disappeared from the (granted, unsophisticated) minds of the so called "anti-Zionists". A Jew is a Jew is a Jew for them and a legitimate target in these minds, no matter whether the Jew is of a Zionist, anti-Zionist or "neutral" variety."

- noga1

April 14, 2012 at 9:22am

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"Large areas of settlements around Jerusalem will be annexed to Israel under any peace agreement (if there ever be one)." Or not. But Israel's refusal to consider anything other the legitimation of the illegal settlements as a condition to peace is the point I have been making for years already. Quite clearly, despite Israel's profession to want peace, it's desire for the land exceeds its desire for peace. If it cannot have its third bite of the partition, it will not make peace. Or then, Israel may discover that it can bear trading for the settlements, not scraps of desert that no one wants, but a Palestinian right of return on a scale comparable to the settlement population it wants to bring into Israel, thereby recognizing one of Palestine's core demands. That is what genuine bargain for exchange is made of, you get something you want in exchange for something I want. Israel's version of a bargain is, we will stop occupying you if you give us what we want, the settlements, the extinguishing of your claims west of the Green Line, and the security arrangements we want. That will never work, as it has not worked. Netanyahu knows he can never make that deal which is why he makes sure he is never sitting at the table. Meanwhile, the strategic situation continues to erode.

- roidubouloi

April 14, 2012 at 9:31am

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Something new from the anti-Semite and self-hating Jew, Peter Beinart, formerly of TNR: http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/10/beinart-fires-back/

- roidubouloi

April 14, 2012 at 9:33am

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makover re-links the Shavit piece linked by noga. Perhpas something else was intended, but here again is the last paragraph from Shavit: "For now, the storm has ended. But Grass' profound moral failure and the Zionist left's profound failure to respond are a bad sign. They show that the long years of occupation distort people's minds and make them forget key concepts. They show that leading intellectuals in the West and Israel are no longer capable of defending Israel. The words said by Grass and the words not said against Grass prove that the gangrene of delegitimization is gradually spreading and devouring us." Shavit's "devouring" is rather more forceful than the term I used, "eroding." All for a bunch of apartments on land to which Israel has no claim.

- roidubouloi

April 14, 2012 at 9:37am

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When you think about it, why should there be a line between professed Zionists and the rest of the Jewish community? It is not as if Jews themselves observe such a line. If you are a Jew and not a Zionist, and even if you are a Zionist Jew who does not toe the right-wing extremist line, you are excoriated as a self-hating Jew and anti-Semite. Thus, the extremist Jewish right (is there such a thing as a non-extremist Jewish right?) insists that there be no distinction permitted. If that is what the Jews think, it is rather a lot to expect those who feel aggrieved by Zionism, Jewish nationalism, to make a distinction. Now, I must hasten to add that even legitimate grievance does not make violence, let alone the murder of children, acceptable or tolerable. But I must also add that the necessity of having to say this is a blot on the McCarthyite and fascistic tendencies of the Jewish right. No one should be required ritually to deplore murder, lest they be accused of condoning it, in order to make a political point. So it goes.

- roidubouloi

April 14, 2012 at 9:45am

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Irony of ironies, here is a paragraph from the very blog linked by noga, making my point rather nicely that right-wing Zionist Jews themselves will not permit any distinction: "So why I am addressing this post to my anti-Zionist and loosely affiliated with them "Israel? We could care less" Diaspora brethren? Because no matter how passionately and how frequently you flaunt your "Not in My Name" and "as a Jew I protest" and other pathetic slogans designed to repaint and otherwise maintain that blue/white line between your detached peaceful Jewish existence in peaceful and friendly Diaspora on one side, and these uncouth aggressive and lacking in spirit Israelis on the other side, the line exists in your own minds only. There is no such line in reality, there never was one, not in the minds of our enemies." A whiff of hypocrisy is in the air.

- roidubouloi

April 14, 2012 at 9:53am

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I linked to Shavit's article because I couldn't find the post that Noga posted. As I said before, I think you misunderstand Shavit's point. His point is that the left has failed on all fronts, to defend Israel from an assault by anti-Zionist forces and antisemitic forces, by becoming an ally of the Islamists and enemies of Zionism and by becoming an ally of the anti democratic and anti liberal forces that are gathering and that it's failure is both political and moral. You write: "But Israel's refusal to consider anything other the legitimation of the illegal settlements as a condition to peace is the point I have been making for years already." You are contradicting yourself. In one post you claim that Israel's annexation of the area will resolve the issue of legality, in another you claim that nothing will do. Decide what is it. Furthermore, those territories have been acquired in a defensive war. Yes, it sucks but that's the way it is. Starting wars has it's price as all other defeated aggressors might testify. So it stands that the Palestinians will have to pay the price of failed aggression too. As far as those scraps of desert that no one wants, fine, they don't want it, we keep it. Your last point regarding Noga's post: Yes, we are sick and tired of you moralizers. We are fed up with your sanctimonious preaching. Walk in our shoes for one year and then re-examine your concepts. I bet they will be different. The hypocrisy is all yours.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 14, 2012 at 10:29am

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I understood Shavit's point the first time, and I even allowed that the Zionist left can be faulted in this way, although I think you are hyperbolic in your restatement. However, the right insists on yoking the left to a settlement policy that the left cannot abide, and to an extreme. The right first insists on the patent falsehood that the settlements and self-defense are the same and will then not tolerate criticism of Israel's human rights violations without accusations of anti-Semitism and Jewish self-hatred (on the grounds expressed right here by you that to do so is to deny Israel's right to self-defense and to be an ally of the enemies of Zion). Thus, the right has made it essentially impossible to maintain a distinction between supporting Israel's right to self-defense and supporting Israel's illegal colonization of the Palestinians. Then you complain that the left is not vigorous enough in supporting Israel's right to self-defense. The moral failure in the first instance is a state policy of violating the human rights of the Palestinians as guaranteed to them by the Fourth Geneva Convention. The second moral failure, of the right, is in refusing to tolerate the maintenance of a distinction between defending Israel's right to self-defense and defending its illicit settlement policy. You are the one I think who fails to understand Shavit's point. Even if the Zionist left rose up en masse to deplore Grass and to say exactly what you or Shavit would want said in response to Grass, it would have no effect at all. The occupation is a corrosive political force undermining Israel's legitimacy and support. Nothing that the Jews, left or right, say in its defense is going to persuade anyone else in the world. The Jewish right, in both Israel and the US, has drained all credibility from Israel's self-defense claims by trying to identify them with the settlements. No one believes that, hence no one any longer believes you. I was not contradicting myself at all, but you need to re-read. The Fourth Geneva Convention applies to occupied territory. If the territory is incorporated and municipal law extended to all inhabitants, as with the annexation of areas around Jerusalem, then the Fourth Geneva Convention does not apply. However, Israel has not in fact incorporated the territories, because it can't, and is very careful not to do so. There are two reasons why it can't. First, if it did, it would have to extend the same political rights to all inhabitants or be guilty of apartheid, a crime against humanity. The settlements are a human rights violation, but not a crime against humanity or a war crime. Israel's leaders don't want to find themselves in the dock at the Hague. Second, the UNSC has flatly prohibited Israel from incorporating the occupied territories, starting with resolution 242. Israel has defied this in the case of Jerusalem, but cannot afford to extend that defiance further. There is the sheer political risk of doing so, the risk of overreach that provokes a strong counter-reaction, and Israel wants to maintain that Jerusalem is special, that, for example, demographic changes there are not settlement. This may or may not fly, but if Israel were to annex more widely, then the chance of maintaining the special status of Jerusalem vanishes. Finally, Jerusalem itself was not part of the Arab (or the Jewish) partition. Thus, it has a somewhat different legal status. Though muddy, it is at least different from the rest of the West Bank in this respect. So, on, it doesn't suck in the manner you would wish. You would like to live in a world before the UN, before the rules of international law that exist today. But you cannot get there. To the extent that Israel had a territorial claim east of the Green Line, such that that territory could be considered disputed, it was extinguished by the partition plan and the subsequent care of the UNSC to make clear that no unilateral territorial changes are permissible. It doesn't matter whether the Palestinians are defeated aggressors (although they were not the state actors in the Six Day War, whatever their sympathies). The outcome is the same. Whether the war was defensive or not is irrelevant. Resolution 242 already says so. The Fourth Geneva Convention applies regardless of whether the war was a legal, defensive war or not. I am sure that you are sick and tired of being reminded that Israel has made itself an outlaw. But it is everyone's duty, both inside and outside Israel, to remind you until Israel decides that it is ready to desist from violating the human rights of the Palestinians. Two states for two people. Theirs is east of the Green Line. Yours is west of the Green Line. Jerusalem is something you will have to strike a deal over. Changes to the boundary would require Israel to offer the Palestinians something they want, as the territory east of the line is already presumptively theirs. You can offer land they want, you can offer to leave the settlements in place as part of Palestine, you can offer compromise on the Palestinian right or return, you can offer whatever you want that they will accept. That is what bargain for exchange means. If they will not accept, then you will have to reconcile yourselves to the Green Line. The settlement policy was a colossal political and strategic error, born of the failure to recognize that the State of Israel is not the Yishuv and could no longer play cat and mouse with the international system as it did with the British. The hope has been that if Israel is intransigent, the Palestinians will let you off the hook by giving you the settlement blocs. They might if you were willing to compromise on what matters most to them, but Israel is implacable, so they won't and you will have to live with that outcome. Which do you want more, the settlements or the end of the Palestinian claims west of the Green Line? Time to decide, because time is not on Israel's side.

- roidubouloi

April 14, 2012 at 12:38pm

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The truth will set you free of your demons. Judea and Samaria . First our Christian Friends. Second pictures of the Jewish pioneers transforming the wilderness of the liberated territories into freedom, progress , technology, peaceful coexistence. Palestinians never had it so good. A clear example of humanity. No self hatred Jews and German nazi lovers accepted.  http://www.c4israel.org/c4i/projects/help_the_jews_at_home/communities_in_judea_and_samaria_christian_friends http://www.google.com/search?q=Judea+and+Samaria+newspapers&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=1qeJT_H0J8Th0QGH5dT7CQ&ved=0CE4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=690

- JAIMECHUCH

April 14, 2012 at 1:00pm

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Try it again Judea and Samaria . First our Christian Friends. Second pictures of the Jewish pioneers transforming the wilderness of the liberated territories into freedom, progress , technology, peaceful coexistence. Palestinians never had it so good. A clear example of humanity. No self hatred Jews and German nazi lovers accepted.  http://www.c4israel.org/c4i/projects/help_the_jews_at_home/communities_in_judea_and_samaria_christian_friends http://www.google.com/search?q=Judea+and+Samaria+newspapers&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=1qeJT_H0J8Th0QGH5dT7CQ&ved=0CE4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=690

- JAIMECHUCH

April 14, 2012 at 1:02pm

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TRy it again http://www.google.com/search?q=Judea+and+Samaria+newspapers&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=1qeJT_H0J8Th0QGH5dT7CQ&ved=0CE4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=690

- JAIMECHUCH

April 14, 2012 at 1:06pm

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Hurray now it worked. Beautiful Judea and Samaria. Photos galore . http://www.google.com/search?q=Judea+and+Samaria+newspapers&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=1qeJT_H0J8Th0QGH5dT7CQ&ved=0CE4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=690

- JAIMECHUCH

April 14, 2012 at 1:09pm

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roid; I am tired of this back and forth. I think that both of us made our positions clear. You write that "it is everyone's duty, both inside and outside Israel, to remind you until Israel decides that it is ready to desist from violating the human rights of the Palestinians." No, absolutely not. Not only it isn't their duty, it is not even their right. Israeli violations of Palestinian human rights are like a piss in the ocean compared to everyday genocides happening around the globe. It's like Professor Eithan compared it to genocidal maniacs, with hands dripping innocent blood that are rounding up Israel into the court of public opinion to prosecute it for jay walking. The Palestinians are lucky that faith gave them Jews as enemies. That's the only reason they still exist and still continue to make their ridiculous maximalist demands and nobody is even laughing. They want to turn the wheels of history back 60 years. Israel is not an outlaw, Israel is a country that is caught up between a rock and a hard place surrounded by enemies sworn to destroy it, the enemies are the outlaws. Anyway, this is the last post I post on this particular issue. For some reason a discussion of a despicable antisemitic poem turned in a questioning of Israel's right to exist. I will have none of that.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

April 14, 2012 at 1:38pm

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Have it or don't have it, the constant and patently absurd attempt to equate Israel's right to exist with the unambiguous violation of the human rights of the Palestinians (and who knows how many UNSC resolutions calling upon Israel to desist) is the reason why Israel has little and shrinking credibility. Worse, Israel's refusal to make peace unless its illegal settlements are legitimized is the most conspicuous threat to Israel. It prolongs an already dangerous conflict for no more reason than a bunch of apartments on land upon which Israel has no claim. Sad, to say the least, but, as I said above, I think Israel has become quite hopeless. That's what happens after not only prolonged occupation, but prolonged governance by a religiously obsessed right-wing, another sort of occupation. Events will overtake. Netanyahu and Israel seem to prefer that to making rational decisions about the their future.

- roidubouloi

April 14, 2012 at 7:16pm

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http://www.google.com/search?q=Judea+and+Samaria+newspapers&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=1qeJT_H0J8Th0QGH5dT7CQ&ved=0CE4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=690 These pictures are great. Modern Judea and Samaria in all its splendor.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 14, 2012 at 8:10pm

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NOTE: The TT has said it a thousand times,* for the majority of European politicians, a Jew who builds a home or has a trailer in his/her native ancestral homeland is considered a war crime and an obstacle to peace, but an Arab terrorist who murders a Jew(s) is not a war crime and such an act, no matter how vile and outrageous, can never be allowed to become an obstacle to peace. That’s how these immoral morons think. A missed opportunity for the EU By TOMAS SANDELL 03/20/2011 21:39

- JAIMECHUCH

April 14, 2012 at 8:16pm

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More links from JaimeChuch in which he unconsciously demonstrates the inevitable failure of Israel's colonial adventure. I open the link he has posted just above to all the wonderful news about Judea and Samaria and immediately find this: "A Dec. 30 A-section item from the Associated Press, about an Israeli Supreme Court ruling giving Palestinians access to a section of West Bank highway previously closed to them, incorrectly said that Israel reserves some roads for Jews. The country closes some roads to virtually all Palestinians, but they are open to all Israeli citizens and to other nationals, regardless of religious background." If if weren't an awful situation, the sheer obliviousness would be funny.

- roidubouloi

April 15, 2012 at 12:36am

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The college of Judea and Samaria http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Education/cjs.html

- JAIMECHUCH

April 15, 2012 at 5:34am

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Ariel college. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_University_Center_of_Samaria

- JAIMECHUCH

April 15, 2012 at 5:41am

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http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/04/11/george-jonas-on-gunter-grass-great-author-or-big-jerk/ "... novelist Gunter Grass (congratulations, you guessed) poses a rhetorical question: What took him so long? Why not years ago? Why was he saying only now, “in his old age, using his last ink,” that Israel’s atomic power was “endangering the fragile peace of the world?” Good question, Herr Grass. Why? Well, first, because of Nazi Germany’s “matchless” crimes against the Jews (please note that Grass, unlike his protégés in Tehran, is no Holocaust-denier) and second, his fear of being accused of anti-Semitism. Nobel laureate Gunter Grass an anti-Semite? Perish the thought! But then what actually has changed? Does Grass no longer consider Nazi crimes to have been matchless? Or is he no longer afraid of being accused of anti-Semitism? What made him lose his fear? Could the winds of political fashion have shifted? Has anti-Semitism stopped being a career-breaker or even a social handicap, especially when disguised as anti-Zionism? Is it because Grass, who has always been attuned to nuances, senses that it’s becoming prudent to flaunt what would have been imprudent to admit only a few years ago? Is it because the great author is a jerk?"

- noga1

April 15, 2012 at 8:01am

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Germany punishes anti semitism by incarceration. But the German nazi only demonized Israel, that doesn't qualify as antisemitic. Just like being anti Israel doesn't qualify as self hatred Jew. And about demonizing the liberated territories read the truth http://www.thejc.com/blogs/advis3r/myths

- JAIMECHUCH

April 15, 2012 at 8:14am

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Far more interesting that Jonas' column are the comments that follows, some very astute criticism of Jonas' hyperbolic excess. The illustrate not only the stupidity of attacking Grass as an anti-Semite, especially for the State of Israel itself (he more than likely is one in fact, but that is beside the point). The comments are also a window onto the political climate Anti-Semitism is real, hatred of Jews is real, enemies with genocidal designs are real. The question is, faced with real enemies, does a prudent steward of the fate of Israel tax its world-wide friends and alienate those in the mushy center who don't think deeply about political matters? Worse, does a prudent steward do this merely to satisfy the messianic longings of a bunch of religious nuts and in pursuit of aims that the whole world outside of Israel believes to be illegitimate?

- roidubouloi

April 15, 2012 at 9:15am

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He thinks he is the whole world, as well as he thinks he is the king. Mirror mirror on the wall who is the whole world of them all, who is the king of them all..... The legal liberated territories.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 15, 2012 at 12:03pm

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The German nazi is just anti Israel. Not a shade of bad feelings, just anti Israel. Biased, bigoted , one sided.

- JAIMECHUCH

April 15, 2012 at 12:10pm

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http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=6727 "Palestinian parents should teach their children that it is their role or destiny to destroy Israel, according to a cartoon in the official PA daily. Text in book: "Palestine" Mother's words: "This is your bride... When you grow up you will know the dowry." In the cartoon, a mother is showing her son a book with a map that includes all of Israel and the PA areas. The text in the book defines the map as "Palestine." The message of the PA daily is that parents either are educating their children or should be educating their children to see their obligation to replace all of Israel with a state of "Palestine." The dowry - the cost of liberating Palestine - is yet to be learned. Last week, Palestinian Media Watch reported that the Minister of Social Affairs, Majida Al-Masri, said in a speech that Palestinian unity is needed in order achieve "the liberation of Palestine - all of Palestine," meaning Israel's destruction." _________ As long as there are settlements in the WB, Palestinians will be more focused on their disappearance. Once they are gone, Palestinians will turn to the rest of "occupied Palestine". With the precedent in place, how can "international law" deny the validity of such a move? This is why it is absolutely essential to challenge Obama's view of Jerusalem both east and west, as "occupied territory". Or his view that the Green Line is a sacred and indisputable border. The fyltilla's "pace" activists named their project: "Welcome to Palestine". They don't see Jews as human beings with aspirations and attachments and legitimate claims that must also be addressed and accommodated. roi shares in that mindset. Whatever he declares to be his objective, he vibrates with anti-Israel animus, the kind of animus I find on Abukhalil's "news service" and the execrable Mondoweiss (and a few other notorious blogs/websites). But I think most posters here have already realized that. Even roi realized it. Note the slight change of tone in his more recent comments. I predict that it won't last for long.

- noga1

April 15, 2012 at 12:28pm

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Majority if Israelis will agree with most of the conclusions advanced by this Israeli leftist who was an adviser to PM Sharon: http://www.timesofisrael.com/talia-sasson-we-had-no-state-for-2000-years-why-are-we-now-jeopardizing-its-jewish-democratic-essence/ "Somehow, through the decades since the land was captured in 1967, all of Israel’s governments – those that spoke more of the liberation of historic Judea and Samaria, and those that spoke more of the occupation of the West Bank – have contrived not to take overarching decisions about the destiny of that territory, not to formalize and hold to a guiding policy on Jewish residency there. That failure, in Sasson’s view, is nothing short of catastrophic. In the years since delivering her report, and briefly serving as an adviser to Sharon when there was a prospect of its being implemented, she has been active in left-wing circles – running unsuccessfully for the Knesset with Meretz in 2009, serving on the board of the New Israel Fund, and sitting on the steering committee of the Geneva Initiative. She happens to believe, she says, that Israel does have a potential partner for a land-for-peace deal in the Mahmoud Abbas-headed Palestinian Authority. But freezing settlement to the east of the security barrier, and removing the 100,000-120,000 Jews who live there, is not “a favor” Israel might consider doing for the Palestinians or “a bargaining chip” in negotiations, she argues" __________ I'd like to highlight two point she makes: 1. "all of Israel’s governments – those that spoke more of the liberation of historic Judea and Samaria, and those that spoke more of the occupation of the West Bank – have contrived not to take overarching decisions about the destiny of that territory, not to formalize and hold to a guiding policy on Jewish residency there." 2. "But freezing settlement to the east of the security barrier, and removing the 100,000-120,000 Jews who live there..." Note that she refers to the Barrier as the arbiter of what she considers "settlements". NOT the "Green Line". This is a significant distinction.

- noga1

April 15, 2012 at 12:37pm

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Noga writes: "They don't see Jews as human beings with aspirations and attachments and legitimate claims that must also be addressed and accommodated. roi shares in that mindset. Whatever he declares to be his objective, he vibrates with anti-Israel animus, the kind of animus I find on Abukhalil's "news service" and the execrable Mondoweiss (and a few other notorious blogs/websites)." ________________ Considering, noga, that you condone "payback violence" and the stoning of Palestinian schoolchildren, you are clearly quite personally knowledgeable about seeing other people as sub-human, without normal aspirations, attachments, and legitimate claims (such as those recognized by the entire rest of the world) that have to be accommodated. You vibrate with animus, period. I try to talk about politics, and political reality, and international law and legitimacy. You only catalog whom you hate and why.

- roidubouloi

April 15, 2012 at 12:54pm

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This is also from the article about Talia Sasson linked by noga: "She thought she was going to take a break from some of that. But the prime minister of the day, Ariel Sharon, was coming under heavy pressure from the United States to honor previous pledges to dismantle illegal settlement outposts and halt government funding for settlements. Sharon decided, as a first step, that he needed a legal overview of building in the territories. And when he asked then-attorney general Menahem Mazuz to recommend someone who could prepare that legal study for him, Mazuz gave him only one name – that of the recently retired Her report, a “Summary of the opinion concerning unauthorized outposts” delivered in early 2005, detailed how successive government departments, without the necessary authorization, had allocated funding and resources to expanding the Jewish presence in the West Bank, notably at dozens of outposts that those same governments acknowledged to be illegal under Israeli law. It was a devastating document – an indictment of a reality in which the settlers were “king” and the institutions of state, emphatically including the army, their subjects. 'State and public authorities took part in breaking the law,” she wrote. “They are the ones who financed construction without a resolution by the political echelon, contrary to government resolutions, with no legal planning status, sometimes not on State owned land, sometimes on private Palestinian property or on survey land… State authorities and public authorities broke the laws, regulations and rules made by the State.'" ______________________ A lawyer of Sasson's caliber undoubtedly knows that the settlements between the Green Line are illegal. Even the Israeli justice on the International Court of Justice had no difficulty concluding that the separation barrier, to the extent routed to protect the illegal settlements, was itself illegal. The settlements make the barrier illegitimate; the barrier doesn't legitimize the settlements. But Sasson is neither a dummy nor a crazed religious nut, like to right-wing politicians who dominate Israeli political life. She knows perfectly well that if, in the current climate in Israel, she questions the legitimacy of the settlement blocs, she will be dismissed out of hand. The nogas will declare that she is a self-hating Jew who considers settlers less than human. I think Sasson understands that the necessary first step is to get Israel to accept the concept that the lawlessness of the West Bank cannot continue. If people come to accept (as for example makover does not) that there is law and that it must be observed, then it becomes an argument over what the law is, a normal part of legal and moral discourse as opposed to justification for lawlessness. One step at a time.

- roidubouloi

April 15, 2012 at 1:47pm

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Here is the title and sub-title of the piece, interesting in and of themselves: "Talia Sasson: We had no state for 2,000 years. Why are we now jeopardizing its Jewish, democratic essence? The revival of Israel was a miracle. The settlement enterprise risks destroying it, says the legal expert and left-wing activist who wrote a landmark report for Sharon on West Bank outposts" _____________________ The woman must be an anti-Semite. There is no other explanation.

- roidubouloi

April 15, 2012 at 1:50pm

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Your facetious comment adds nothing to the discussion. Of course, the settlement policy is a threat to Israel economically as well as diplomatically, but even with the best of wills their dismantling will not change the minds of those who have an ill will towards the Jewish State. Still, Israel should do this for its own sake and not to appease anti-Semites.

- arnon1

April 15, 2012 at 2:38pm

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TNR published in this issue a review of a book by a British historian. “Vanished Kingdoms: The Rise and Fall of States and Nations” By Norman Davies http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/magazine/102117/vanished-kingdoms-norman-davies-europe-history-nation-states#comments “History as Fantasy” Jacob Soll I had read some books by Norman Davies many years ago about Poland and the Second World War in which he attacked Jewish historians for “distorting” Polish history by claiming that it was an anti-Semitic country. The reasons he gave for such distortions in the past had to do with ‘Jews always blaming others for their own faults’ this used to be and is the explanation people of Davies’ ilk give when justifying anti-Semitism. This explanation was often used in combinations that saw Jews as “money-lenders,” “Bankers,” “Communists” etc. After the founding of history the justification for anti-Semitism changed. Here is Soll: “What is that full story, according to Davies? He cryptically complains that “the rich, multi-layered legacy of Galicia remains in the shadows. The Kingdom ‘as it really was’ remains at best half-forgotten and half-remembered.” This may be true. But Davies clearly struggles with the question, returning to the inescapable traces of the 502,000 Galician Jews who were destroyed by the Final Solution. He cannot keep from reenacting his own role in the denial of Polish culpability in anti-Jewish pogroms: “The Jews did encounter a certain measure of discrimination, especially during the Polish-Soviet War. But stories of widespread pogroms, though oft-repeated, were dismissed by successive international inquiries.” To deny the fact that Jews in Poland, Belarus, the Baltic states, and Russia were subject to hundreds of years of pogroms is pure and foul revisionism. But this, alas, is a refrain in Davies’ work: when he claims that Poland was not anti-Semitic, or that Poles suffered in pogroms (which makes no sense), Davies cites his own writing of forty years ago, an article from 1973 in which he insists that pogroms were invented by British Zionist Jews bent on separating Polish Jews from their Polish brothers. He claims that the findings of the Morgenthau Report of 1919 on Polish pogroms did not take into account the counter-views of Morgenthau’s “non-Jewish colleagues” and is therefore “inconclusive.” He further claims that “the actual record of anti-Semitic events in ethnic Poland is therefore unexpectedly mild.” Russians and Germans were responsible for pogroms and the Holocaust. Information about Polish pogroms was supplied by Jewish “agencies,” “organizations,” and “Zionist publicity.”” I wonder if he now blames settlements of the West Bank for Jew hatred in Poland and elsewhere?

- arnon1

April 15, 2012 at 2:41pm

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Don't you know that we Galicianers are all liars? JaimeChuch has said so. __________________________ And this just in from the NYT http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/16/world/middleeast/israel-moves-to-block-activists-from-entering-country.html?hp What is fascinating is not that Israel won't let foreigners in to participate with Palestinians in what no one, even the Israeli government, seems to think are anything other than peaceful ceremonies and meetings. What is really interesting is the bespectacled, undoubtedly Israeli young woman (bared midriff and low cut jeans and all -- if you have been there, you would understand) being arrested at Ben Gurion Airport for holding up a little sign, printed on letter-sized paper, that says, "Welcome to Palestine." When this is the level of fear of criticism and dissent in the government of Israel, that it is banning Grass and arresting girls in jeans holding a piece of paper, you know its policy is in the process of crumbling. These are admissions of defeat. The question is when and how Israel will manage to change gears. That could be a long time. A zombie right-wing could hold on for quite a while.

- roidubouloi

April 15, 2012 at 3:32pm

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"Don't you know that we Galicianers are all liars?" I am a Litvak myself.

- arnon1

April 15, 2012 at 3:45pm

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Oh Isabel Kershner, Figures. So you some airhead holding up a sign which they got wrong. The people visiting are the ones welcomes, they are not the ones who do the welcoming.

- arnon1

April 15, 2012 at 3:48pm