FROM THE BACK OF THE BOOK MARCH 14, 2012
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Silenced: How Apostasy and Blasphemy Codes Are Choking Freedom Worldwide
By Paul Marshall and Nina Shea
(Oxford University Press, 448 pp., $35)
I.
In spite of its slightly agitated title, this book is mostly a cool and even-tempered human rights report, and its findings go a long way toward explaining one of the mysteries of our time, namely, the ever-expanding success of political movements with overtly Islamic doctrines and radical programs.
Some people may suppose that Islam itself, the ancient religion, mandates theocracy. Seen in this light, the vigor of theocratically tinged political movements right now ought to seem normal to us, and maybe even commendable—a fitting renaissance of cultural authenticity in places around the world that, having left behind the indignities of colonial domination and the awkwardness of the post-colonial era, have entered at last into the post-post-colonial age of the return to self. Movements that carry such labels as “Islamism” or “radical Islam” or “political Islam,” judged in this way, could perfectly well drop their suffixes and adjectives and simply adopt the name of Islam itself—an Islam that has exited the mosque in order to fulfill still more sacred obligations in the public square. But Paul Marshall and Nina Shea take a different view. And in order to confer an august authority upon their contrary estimation, they have padded their human-rights report, or perhaps armored it, with learned commentaries by three Islamic scholars, two of whom are recently deceased but all of whom are distinguished.
The Islamic scholars are the late Abdurrahman Wahid, who at one time was president of Indonesia; the late Nasr Hamid Abu-Zayd, a professor of Arabic literature at Cairo University until he fled into exile; and Abdullah Saeed, in exile from the Maldives, who is currently a professor at the University of Melbourne. All three of these eminences argue stoutly and knowledgeably that the radical Islamic political movements of our time represent, in Wahid’s phrase, an “extreme and perverse ideology.” The ideology ought not to be confused with other, more tolerant and traditional currents of thought within Islam, more compatible with modern liberal ideas—such as the peaceable Sufism endorsed by Wahid, together with sundry humanist currents that descend from Islam’s medieval Golden Age. The three scholars display a confident erudition in laying out their view. And yet the scholarly self-confidence only raises a further question: why have liberal-minded and scripturally sophisticated thinkers such as Wahid, Abu-Zayd, and Saeed failed in so many parts of the world to out-argue the extreme and perverse ideologues? Why haven’t the liberals and the moderates crushed the radicals? This is the mystery that Marshall and Shea address.
Marshall and Shea have been toiling for many years at the Hudson Institute’s Center for Religious Freedom in Washington, and the dossier they have assembled on religion and human rights shows that, in the Muslim world and beyond, the proponents of a radical and politicized Islam have set one great goal for themselves, which is not at all dreamy or utopian. The goal is to narrow the limits of what everybody else is allowed to think. The way to achieve this goal is to invoke sacred taboos against apostasy and blasphemy, together with a series of other taboos—“insulting Islam,” “corruption on earth,” “fighting against God,” “witchcraft,” and so forth.
The radical ideologues deem apostasy and blasphemy to be capital offenses punishable, according to the code of sharia, by death. The radicals do not expect everyone else to share an enthusiasm for corporal punishments, but they do want the rest of the world to acknowledge that apostasy and sacrilege against Islam are abominations, which ought to arouse indignation in the heart of every decent and fair-minded person. As it happens, everyone else does not assent to this crucial point. The scholarly Muslim contributors to Marshall and Shea’s book explain that, from their own non-radical standpoint, sharia ought to be regarded as a flexible call for a thoughtfully pious morality, and not as a rigid code of temporal punishments. Nor do blasphemy and apostasy send the non-radical scholars reeling in horror. Nor is there any consensus on how to define blasphemy and apostasy. There is, instead, a debate. But the debate has gone the way it has gone. The liberal counter-arguments have gotten trampled underfoot. The limits of permissible thought have shrunk. And the radicals’ success is owed in significant measure to a large and observable factor that Marshall and Shea are at pains to document. It is systematic intimidation.
THE RADICALS, WHO are perfectly happy to argue in a conventional manner, are equally happy, should argument fail, to enforce. In countries where the radicals are in power, enforcement falls into the hands of the uniformed services—a visible reality in countries as diverse as the ultra-revolutionary Islamic Republic of Iran and the ultraconservative Wahhabi monarchy of the Arabian peninsula. But police enforcement of the apostasy and blasphemy taboos used to figure in the Egypt of Hosni Mubarak as well, if only because Mubarak’s Free Officers’ movement, for all its boasting about secular modernity and democratic aspirations, managed to strike up a working alliance with the semi-tolerated Muslim Brotherhood. In still other countries, non-governmental militias—for example, the Boko Haram in Nigeria—take enforcement into their own hands. There are also the mobs, as can be seen in various places from West Africa to Pakistan. And there are vigilantes.
Marshall and Shea present a summary of these violent campaigns and their consequences in some twenty countries around the world, chosen from among the forty-plus countries whose populations are principally Muslim. Indonesia, the most populous, remains a largely tolerant place—as does the not-so-populous Mali, just to show that Indonesia’s civic virtues are more than a local aberration (though just now, as I write, Mali has fallen into a civil war, along ethnic instead of religious lines). A religious oppression weighs more heavily in other places, such as Abdullah Saeed’s unhappy Maldives in the Indian Ocean, a miserable sea-bound spot for anyone hoping to dip a toe into the free-floating waters of the untrammeled intellect.
The radicals have focused their campaign against apostasy and blasphemy on several categories of people, which Marshall and Shea have taken the trouble to identify and to describe, beginning with religious minorities. No one will be surprised to learn that, for Christians in different parts of the Muslim world, today is the age of the Roman lions, and Christians have been fleeing en masse. Marshall and Shea remind us that in Sudan an Islamist government sparked a civil war partly by trying to impose a ferocious version of sharia on Christians and other non-Muslims in the south, and by the time the war ended (though the violence seems to be starting up again) more than two million people of various confessions had been killed.
In Somalia, Islamists have looked on the entire Christian population as Muslim apostates, and this has led to a call by one of the Islamist groups for a general extermination. Christians have suffered persecution even in places where, formally speaking, the government is secular and civic rights are supposed to apply. There is the case in Algeria, where, in response to an Islamist outcry ostensibly against foreign Christian missionaries, the government during the last few years has taken to exerting pressure on a variety of Christian activities, sometimes with the implication that Algeria’s Christians are agents of foreign forces. In Egypt, Christians appear to be fleeing, perhaps in large numbers.
The most consistent pressure has fallen upon heterodox Muslim groups such as the Ismailis, the Alevis, and the Ahmadis (who suffer persecution even in Indonesia), not to mention offshoots of Islam such as the hugely oppressed Baha’i. Then again, the militants of radical Islam tend to hang the label of blasphemy around the necks of whichever mainstream Muslim denomination happens to be locally in the minority—the Sunnis in Shiite Iran, the Shia in Sunni Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Surely everyone has noticed that, for many years now, scarcely a week goes by without a report of yet another massacre of random Shia, sometimes in mosques, sometimes at funerals—a vast development in Iraq, but also in Pakistan and recently in Afghanistan. Entire ethnic groups are sometimes deemed to have fallen afoul of the taboos. The persecution of Christians in Algeria singles out the Algerian Berbers, known as Kabyles, some of whom are Christians, though most are Muslims. Islamists in Sudan have declared the Nubas apostate, which puts half a million people at risk—though a full-scale massacre has failed to occur.
Marshall and Shea punctiliously demonstrate that persecution by the radicals focuses everywhere on the Islamic humanists, liberal reformers, and free-thinkers. Some very distinguished Islamic reformists have been killed—for instance, the Sudanese intellectual Mahmoud Mohamed Taha, who was executed by Sudan’s Islamist government on a charge of blasphemy in 1985. I mention Taha because one of his disciples, Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na’im of Emory University School of Law, published an incisive book in 2008 called Islam and the Secular State, which means that any readers who have been following our own American debate over Islamic theology and its uses and distortions may recognize Taha’s name and may even suspect, on the basis of his disciple’s reasoning, that Taha offered exceptionally powerful arguments for a tolerant and modern Islam. But Marshall and Shea have filled their pages with a great many additional names and case summaries, such that you could easily conclude that in our time an entire generation of progressive Muslim intellectuals has come under attack. If you have been following the news you may have noticed that a new generation, too, has come under attack—as demonstrated by the case of a Saudi columnist named Hamza Kashgari, age twenty-three, who fled from Saudi Arabia to Malaysia after having posted three Twitter messages having to do with Muhammad, and has now been deported back to Saudi Arabia to face charges of blasphemy, apostasy, and atheism: capital offenses.
Marshall and Shea feel that, having taken note of the tolerant exceptions, they are in a position to generalize from their country-by-country analysis. They write, “Our survey shows that in Muslim-majority countries and areas, restrictions on freedom of religion and expression, based on prohibitions of blasphemy, apostasy, and ‘insulting Islam,’ are pervasive, thwart freedom, and cause suffering to millions of people.” The suffering is sometimes inflicted subtly or indirectly, which makes it no less grievous. The visible persecution falls upon the designated heretics and out-groups, but the ordinary members of the privileged majority population also learn their lesson. Each lonely individual, in the privacy of his own ruminations, has to reflect on the possible consequences of allowing a wayward thought to wander down a forbidden alley. Islam itself ends up a victim. An-Na’im observes that if you do not have the possibility of abandoning your religion, you do not enjoy the possibility of freely embracing it, either.
Who will stand up, under these circumstances, to block the militants in their forward march? Absolute majorities of people in one country after another may well look upon the champions of a totalitarian Islam with disdain and horror. But the majorities have every reason to keep their feelings to themselves; and people who keep their feelings to themselves tend not to know, after a while, what their feelings are. Anyway, majorities sometimes do side with the radicals, as we have been learning, which leaves the whole responsibility for putting up a resistance in the hands of some very lonely minorities.
THE RADICALS SOMETIMES keep an eye on other parts of the world, and this, their global orientation, adds up to something new. The conventional leaders of Islam in times of yore did not generally regard departures from sharia in non-Muslim regions of the world as grounds for concern, and, for that matter, neither did the radicals— until recently. Islamism in its modern and recognizable form got started in the 1920s and 1930s with the founding of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and a scattering of fraternal movements in other countries—and the Islamists of those decades dreamed mostly of resurrecting the ancient sacred caliphate in its historic zones. The notion of not only resurrecting the caliphate but expanding it outward to the rest of the world was mostly a millenarian afterthought, mentionable, but not, as it were, actionable.
The more expansive rethinking emerged only in the course of the Rushdie affair in 1988–1989, when Ayatollah Khomeini and other leaders judged that corporal retribution for the satanic act of writing and publishing The Satanic Verses should be meted out even to Rushdie’s publishing houses, translators, and booksellers in all parts of the world, unto California, which experienced an arson, and Japan, which saw a murder. The Age of the Rushdie Affair, having gotten under way, has not yet come to an end. Marshall and Shea summarize some of its continuing manifestations: the murder of Theo van Gogh, the Dutch filmmaker, on an Amsterdam street in 2004; the response to a dozen Danish cartoons in 2005 lampooning Islamic terrorism, which generated mass demonstrations, riots, and arson attacks and, all in all, 241 deaths around the world; the repeated attempts to murder the Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard, who drew the most pointed and memorable of the cartoons (the one depicting Muhammad with a bomb tucked into his turban), with would-be assassins arrested as far away as Chicago; the response to Benedict XVI’s lecture at Regensburg, Germany, in 2006, which led to the murder of Christians in Iraq and Somalia and to bombings and shootings aimed at Christian centers in Gaza and the Palestinian West Bank.
More: the response to a cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad by the Swedish art theorist and artist Lars Vilks, which led to a conspiracy to assassinate him that included “Jihad Jane” in the United States; the response to a film by the Dutch right-wing politician Geert Wilders (one of the very few people involved in these affairs, as Marshall and Shea point out, who actually does express a thorough hostility to Islam), which led to the killing of a Dutch soldier in Afghanistan; the response to a romance novel by the American writer Sherry Jones about one of Muhammad’s wives, which led to the arrest of three men in England for attempted arson against the publisher (after Random House in the United States had already backed off publishing the book); the conviction of a man for threatening the creators of the South Park comedy show, though South Park decided not to go ahead with its depiction of Muhammad in a bear suit; the beating in Oslo of Kadra Noor, a Norwegian-Somali feminist. And so forth—with my examples culled only from incidents in which people have been killed or injured, or in which suspected terrorists and vigilantes have been arrested.
Incidents in which artistic or intellectual presentations have been cancelled without any accompanying violence or arrests have become fairly common: the sandblasting by the Dutch police of a mural in Amsterdam protesting the murder of van Gogh; the removal of artwork from London’s Whitechapel Gallery in 2006; the cancellation of a display at the Tate Gallery; the cancellation in Geneva in 1993 of a production of Voltaire’s play Fanaticism: or Mahomet the Prophet (followed, a dozen years later, by a minor riot when Voltaire’s play did receive a French production); the quiet removal of artworks from display by the Metropolitan Museum in New York in 2010 (though I wonder how Marshall and Shea would judge the Met’s ambitious new wing of Islamic art); the removal in 2009 of the Danish cartoons from a scholarly Yale University Press book about the Danish cartoons; the cancellation in 2009 of a German mystery novel about Muslim honor killings; the flight underground of a threatened cartoonist, Molly Norris, of the Seattle Weekly; the decision by eight hundred newspapers in the United States not to run a syndicated cartoon by Wiley Miller. And so on.
The most telling intimidation has naturally fallen upon artists and public figures in Europe who are themselves Muslims or come from Muslim backgrounds—the Anglican bishop Michael Nazir-Ali, who converted to Christianity; the brave and morally precise Italian-Egyptian journalist Magdi Allam, who also converted (at the hands of the pope, no less, such that his middle name is now Cristiano); the writer and activist Ayaan Hirsi Ali in Holland, until she left Holland; Necla Kelek, a German feminist from Turkey; Ekin Deligöz, a German Green politician from Turkey; Souad Sbai, the head of Italy’s Association of Moroccan Women, and too many others to list. Most of these people are émigrés who, having fled to Europe from their old homes, have now found themselves obliged to flee anew and sometimes to rely on pseudonyms and the police. Marshall and Shea cite North American instances: a campaign of threats against Tarek Fatah and his colleagues of the reformist Muslim Canadian Congress; threats against the Canadian reformist writer Irshad Manji; the beating in Canada of a Pakistani-born journalist, Jawad Faizi; and the necessity even in the United States to adopt a pseudonym and behave circumspectly for the profoundly learned Pakistani-born scholar Ibn Warraq, the author of Virgins? What Virgins? (you see his problem right there) and the masochistically subtitled book Why the West Is Best: A Muslim Apostate’s Defense of Liberal Democracy.
I could go on, but the point is made. There are far too many of these incidents and unhappy life-stories to dismiss the lot of them as a marginal phenomenon.
II.
THE ANTI-BLASPHEMY and anti-apostasy campaign has meanwhile advanced on still another terrain, which is that of law. Some fifty-seven countries around the world adhere to the lately renamed Organization of Islamic Cooperation, or OIC, founded by Saudi Arabia in 1969. Not every government in the OIC tilts in radical directions, but the ideologues do seem to enjoy an outsized influence. In 1990, the OIC proposed a thorough subversion of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The new statement was called the “Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam,” and it stipulated: “Everyone shall have the right to express his opinion freely in such manner as would not be contrary to the principles of the Shari’a.” And the OIC launched a campaign to persuade the United Nations to integrate a respect for sharia into international law.
It is worth asking why the OIC would bother doing such a thing, and indeed why the larger radical movement would have shifted its already grandiose focus from resurrecting an ancient empire to evangelizing the planet. But this is not so mysterious, if you take the trouble to read some of the classics of the Islamist literature. The “extreme and perverse” ideology is not, as many people tend to assume, merely a call to return to the pieties and amputations of grandfather’s day. The ideology is modern, and, as with many another totalitarian mania of the last century, its perversity hangs on a paranoia. The doctrine postulates a conspiracy theory, according to which Crusaders and Zionists have been plotting to annihilate Islam for many hundreds of years—in the case of the Zionists, ever since the Medina controversies of the seventh century. Not too many foreign ministries around the world, or even among the constituent governments of the OIC, are likely to uphold the Crusader-Zionist delusion in its full exotic glory. But like a spilled drink, the exotic theory is capable of blending into the conventional fabric of modern fears all over the world about Western power and its arrogant habits and intentions.
Marshall and Shea cite the presentations of a United Nations official with the magnificent title “Special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia, and related intolerance”—who, from 2003 to 2008, was a jurist from Senegal named Doudou Diène. The Special Rapporteur felt that people in the Western countries who expressed anxieties about Islamic extremism were mounting a kind of racist assault on Muslims. He worried about “Islamophobia”—an irrational fear or bigotry, bolstered by theoretical and ideological justifications. From a viewpoint such as his, even a set of innocent-or-mischievous cartoons in a little-known newspaper in a tiny European country like Denmark could appear to be a massively powerful Islamophobic weapon, akin to an imperialist intervention against the world’s Muslims—no, not just akin, an actual weapon, designed to wreak damage. In this fashion, medieval paranoias about Crusaders and seventh-century Jews could be presented as sophisticated mid-twentieth-century-style exposés of remnant or resurgent colonialist ambitions. And the OIC discovered that a suitably rephrased anti-blasphemy campaign could perfectly well attract support from well outside the circle of Muslim delegations.
The OIC has come up with one and another proposal, submitted to the United Nations, to condemn defamation of Islam or “Islamophobia,” and the proposals have led sometimes to non-binding resolutions either from the UN’s various human-rights committees or even from the UN General Assembly. Marshall and Shea tell us that, after a while, some of the Western democracies bridled at these resolutions, and Western reactions led to clever reformulations on the part of the OIC, adopting the more catholic approach, so to speak, of condemning the defamation of religions in general, as if without any parochial concern for Islam. Or the resolutions condemned “hate speech” and “contempt” of religion. But the underlying intention remained.
In Marshall and Shea’s interpretation, the Obama administration, instead of smiting these resolutions down, has sometimes helped the campaign along its way. In 2009, the administration, pursuing its new policy of “engagement,” agreed to co-sponsor with Egypt a resolution in the Human Rights Council condemning “negative racial and religious stereotyping” and “any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence”—which, in Marshall and Shea’s view, lent still more legitimacy to the larger campaign. Worse: the Obama administration, in Marshall and Shea’s interpretation, may even have hinted at an American willingness to back away from a full-throated defense of free speech.
I WONDER IF Marshall and Shea, in commenting on these matters, haven’t fallen into the Potomac swampland of American politics. The administration of Bush the Younger followed a policy at the United Nations of stomping its feet and exiting the room whenever its ideological foes from other parts of the world came up with preposterous or offensive proposals, and the door-slamming effectively left the OIC unopposed, and the OIC ran amok. This was worrisome. The committee resolutions, piling up, were eventually bound to seep into political and legal understandings around the world. But the Obama administration succeeded in altering the language in the 2009 version of the ever-changing resolution, and the alterations cleverly blunted the campaign—or so it can be argued.
Marshall and Shea themselves sulkily acknowledge that, early in 2011, the anti-defamation-and-apostasy campaign suffered an open setback at the United Nations, in favor of a still newer resolution offering a proper and admirable defense of free speech—which might suggest that “engagement” had scored, in fact, a triumph. Success, at last—if only on East 43rd Street! Procedural cleverness is good. Then again, no one should imagine that clever politicking at the U.N. is going to bring these debates to an end. Just a few months ago, in November 2011, an Iranian project, expressed in “the Tehran Declaration and Programme of Action,” from 2007, attracted yet another group of supporters—this time in favor of a resolution protecting “cultural diversity.” But the rhetoric of “cultural diversity,” like the previous rhetoric about hate speech or insults to religions-in-general, merely offers one more way to demand the legal suppression of anything deemed inconvenient by the radical ideology.
Marshall and Shea argue pretty strenuously that, after so many years, the project of legally silencing critics around the world has seeped into the legal assumptions even of countries that ought to know better. They mention the courtroom problems in France of people such as Brigitte Bardot, who keeps getting fined by French judges on hate-speech grounds for having published her condemnations of Islamic animal-slaughter practices and her worries about “the Islamization of France.” Bardot offers an ambiguous example, though. France cultivates its own notions of civility and public space, which, from an American perspective, can seem over-regimented—though the French regimentation, which obliges right-wing enthusiasts such as Bardot to pipe down, also prohibits Muslim schoolgirls and everyone else from wearing ostentatious religious symbols in the public schools, and the one hand and the other hand are duly shackled together, to the general satisfaction of the public, including the French Muslim public.
Some other courtroom episodes from the last few years, as described by Marshall and Shea, seem to me more disturbing—ranging from a lawsuit against France’s best-known novelist, the morosely naughty Michel Houellebecq, who was obliged to defend in court his right in 2002 to declare Islam “the stupidest religion of all” (paraphrasing Voltaire on Christianity, by the way), to the troubles of one of France’s best-known philosophers, the soberly upright Alain Finkielkraut, who has likewise had to contend with legal complaints, not to mention personal threats. It is reassuring to learn from Marshall and Shea that Houellebecq won his case, and that none other than Nicolas Sarkozy rose to Finkielkraut’s defense. French republicanism will never regiment the glories of French culture. And it is reassuring to learn that, in Germany, a production of Mozart’s Idomeneo, which depicted the severed heads of various religious figures, not excluding the founder of Islam, ultimately did go on stage, after a moment’s hesitation, amid a nervous deployment of police guards and electric scanners; and reassuring to learn that, in the United States, a small publisher stepped forward to publish Sherry Jones’s novel.
Marshall and Shea observe, however, that victory in cases like these can cost a pretty penny, and the costs are likely to dampen anyone’s ardor for self-expression—a point they make in regard to the writer Mark Steyn, who had to fend off complainants in a Canadian court at his own expense, and again in regard to an Australian church minister named Daniel Scot, whose legal expenditures added up, in his own estimation, to hundreds of thousands of dollars. There is always the possibility, too, that even the most decisive of legal victories will leave a door open for extra-legal defeats. Marshall and Shea cite a lawsuit in 2007 against the editor of the French left-wing satirical newspaper Charlie-Hebdo, who was accused of having broken the law by reprinting the Danish cartoons, and was duly acquitted. A few months ago, after Charlie-Hebdo announced a forthcoming issue satirizing the Islamist movement, the newspaper’s offices in Paris were demolished in a fire-bombing.
The legal issues and even some of the violence seem to me, in any case, secondary to a still larger phenomenon, which is a vogue all over the world for an entirely voluntary self-censorship—a custom of downplaying certain topics that are deemed sensitive, or declining even to utter certain controversial words, while pretending to be frank and forthright. By now everyone has noticed the fog of euphemism that has crept over the word “moderate” when applied to Islamist movements and leaders. A “moderate” is someone such as Rachid Ghannouchi, the Islamist leader in Tunisia, basking for the last few months in his October 2011 triumph at the polls—who has spoken at length over the years about “Jewish Masonic Zionist atheistic gangs” and the “Talmudic satanic project” to create a “new Jewish world order on the ruins of the American Western world order,” about the mothers of suicide terrorists as “a new model of woman,” and more generally about “the extinction of Israel” or, more recently and hygienically, “the germ of Israel,” which he has come to think will, like polio, shortly be eradicated. Ghannouchi is one of the leading champions around the world of Hamas—a leading champion because Hamas itself has never been well-endowed with intellectuals, but Ghannouchi is an educated philosopher. Then again, Ghannouchi promises to respect democratic norms within Tunisia itself. Measured by Islamist standards, he is indeed a “moderate.” No one but satanic Masonic Zionist germs need fear extermination, if Rachid Ghannouchi has his way. At least, not for the moment! Yet how can it be that Islamist standards have ended up accepted in the mainstream Western press, such that, for months now, barely a day goes by when we do not read encomia to the “moderation” of Rachid Ghannouchi?
MARSHALL AND SHEA devote very little attention to superstitions about the Jews, and this makes sense from a narrow point of view. A human-rights report should chronicle acts of persecution, and during the last several decades nearly the entire Jewish population of the Muslim world successfully fled to Israel and other places—which means that, unlike the oppressed Ismailis, Ahmadis, Baha’is, Muslim liberals, Christians, and other unhappy minorities, the Jews of the Middle East are right now capable of defending themselves con fuoco, even con troppo fuoco. The only substantial exception can be found in Iran, where a rump population of the ancient Jewish community has stubbornly remained in place. But Marshall and Shea report that Iran’s Jews, having declined to flee, also decline to raise even the tiniest of wan complaints about their circumstances, which may suggest a high degree of intimidation. There are twenty thousand of these people.
Seen from an angle broader than human rights persecution, though, the belief in supernatural Jewish evil might seem worthy of commentary. It is often supposed that, when the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt first acquired a mass popularity, beginning in 1936, its appeal rested on a nationalist loathing for the British. But the campaign that in fact attracted hundreds of thousands of Egyptians into the Brotherhood ranks was anti-Zionist, in solidarity with the Arab Uprising in Palestine—with Zionism defined in the more-than-human manner that could be understood by studying The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, just then taking their prominent place in the Islamist literature. That was ages ago. But does anyone really suppose that supernaturalist anti-Zionism has somehow receded more recently to the margins of the Islamist imagination?
I urge any of my more optimistic readers to look up the various YouTube videos of a sermon delivered by Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi in Tahrir Square, Cairo, in February 2011, to an enormous crowd. His sermon was one of the turning points of the Arab Spring—the moment at which the Muslim Brotherhood finally decided to ripple its muscles in front of a broad public. Qaradawi is the most widely known and admired Sunni cleric in the world, owing to his al-Jazeera televangelism, even apart from his status as the Brotherhood’s leading theologian. He devoted most of his sermon to celebrating the early moments of the new revolution. He urged the Egyptian people onward. But the sermon also rose to a climax that turned away from Egypt altogether in order to touch on Palestinian issues. He prayed to God to be allowed “to witness the conquest of the Al-Aqsa mosque,” in Jerusalem—though, in another translation, “conquest” is rendered as “opening.” His meaning was clear, either way.
Qaradawi is famous for having bestowed clerical blessings upon suicide terror and the policies of Hamas. He resembles Rachid Ghannouchi in this respect, his fellow member of the European Council for Fatwa and Research, except that Qaradawi is the senior figure. The jaunty title “mufti of martyrdom operations” is something Qaradawi assigned to himself, in a fit of televised ghoulish humor. The prayed-for “conquest” or “opening” of the Al-Aqsa mosque at the climax of his sermon at Tahrir Square could only mean the triumph of Hamas’s jihad. There are people who claim not to know what this would involve. But Qaradawi himself has offered a few hints. Hamas’s jihad means the completion of what Hitler, as the agent of God, long ago began—another element of Qaradawi’s thinking that, together with his overall condemnation of the peace process, he has announced to his gigantic television audience.
But what strikes me about Qaradawi’s Cairo sermon was the crowd’s reaction to those final, climactic invocations. The reaction was oceanic. On some of those videos a giant wave appears to lift up the vast city square. Here was the revolutionary emotion—not for every last Egyptian, to be sure, but evidently for a great many people who have just now voted for one or another of the Islamist parties. Here was the revolutionary goal, openly announced. It was not merely the overthrow of Pharaoh. It was the liberation of Jerusalem. The crowd at Tahrir Square erupted in emotion because huge numbers of people look upon Qaradawi’s goal as a transcendental aspiration—the jihad that is spiritual and material at the same time.
And yet Qaradawi, too, is typically described as a “moderate.” Even his Tahrir Square sermon has been described and applauded more than once as “moderate,” without the slightest reference to its concluding section. How can this be, almost seventy years after the defeat of Nazism—the presentation of such a person as a “moderate,” amid the discreet overlooking of his rantings on Jewish themes? The omissions tend to be systematic, too. The scholar Samuel Helfont has commented on this magazine’s website about a recent American scholarly biography of Qaradawi that likewise manages to overlook or underestimate the rantings. A similar distortion can be seen in historical scholarship on Qaradawi’s predecessor as grand theoretician, Sayyid Qutb. The most recent of the scholarly Qutb biographies duly takes up his theories about satanic Jewish conspiracies, but somehow the conspiracy theories merit only a handful of pages, which will scarcely seem appropriate to anyone who has actually read Qutb’s enormous Koranic commentaries, not to mention his pamphlet on the Jews. Martin Kramer has made the same point in regard to an Oxford University Press book about Ghannouchi. Silenced is the name of Marshall and Shea’s human-rights report, and Self-Silenced ought to be the title of a round-up analysis of some recent Western academic scholarship.
THE MATTER OF self-censorship also rises to more-than-academic heights. There is the sensitive question of how the most powerful of Western governments have come to define what can be discussed, and what should be deemed unsayable. Marshall and Shea report:
In 2008, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security and the State Department instructed their employees to avoid the words “salafi,” “wahhabist,” “caliphate,” and “jihadist” as offensive to Muslims when used by non-Muslims. On the advice of unidentified Muslim consultants, the word “liberty” was also dropped in favor of “progress.” That year, the U.K. Home Secretary also dropped the term “Islamic terrorism” and instead instituted “anti-Islamic activity.” In 2009, the U.S. Homeland Security secretary dropped “Islamic terrorism” in favor of “man-made disasters.” The May 2010 U.S. National Security Strategy document, which in previous years had said, “The struggle against militant Islamic radicalism is the great ideological conflict of the early years of the 21st century,” dropped any reference to “Islamic extremism.”
Old news? Marshall and Shea’s book makes the old news seem newly worrisome. Their book paints a worldwide landscape of censorship and self-censorship, and the scenes of violence and intimidation suggest that a fondness for bureaucratic Orwellianisms in Washington or London may reflect something more than diplomatic discretion. The whipped-up hysterias over blasphemy and Islamophobia have certainly turned out to serve a military purpose. The protests against the inadvertent burning of Korans in Afghanistan in February , after the publication of Marshall and Shea’s book, have led to twenty-nine Afghani deaths and the killing of six American soldiers, and have led to something more as well: a visible tremor among the NATO allies in Afghanistan, a hint of military defeat.
Marshall and Shea’s book is not always easy to read, mostly because the topic is painful, but also because the presentation is repetitive and sometimes a little chaotic. The index is oddly truncated, which makes for difficulties if you want to look up any number of significant cases and their summaries—such as the story of Mozart’s opera in Germany, recounted in the text and absent from the index. I do not doubt that rival human-rights groups could hurl objections at various details in Marshall and Shea’s report, given the reality that human-rights documentation is not the science that its practitioners pretend it to be. The Obama administration has reason to grumble about going unappreciated by Marshall and Shea on various matters, and the veterans of the Bush administration have equal reason to mumble their appreciation for going undiscussed. An uncontroversial report on the human-rights challenge of our present moment will never be written.
But everyone ought to be able to agree that, in composing their book, Marshall and Shea have accomplished something large and admirable. They have painted a portrait to accompany the series of Arab Human Development Reports from the U.N., except they have done so on a global scale, which no one has attempted before, at least not in a convincing or thorough way.
Their portrait is dismaying, and yet it does stimulate a few thoughts. The human rights movement has always looked into repressive governments. Anyone who studies Marshall and Shea’s report will recognize that political and religious movements, even without government power, can likewise prove to be massively repressive; and what is massively repressive ought to be examined and exposed. The report also raises a couple of questions that are hard to quantify but ought still to trouble us—questions not just about the right to think freely, but about the habit of actually doing so, which is easily lost; and not just about rights and habits in faraway places, but at home, too, in the land of the free. Anyway, if you have been keeping up with the election results from North Africa and the civil wars in different parts of the Arab world, you may have already intuited that the worldwide campaign to suppress criticism of the Islamist movement, as documented by Marshall and Shea, is about to make a gigantic and intimidating lurch forward, beyond anything we have so far seen.
Paul Berman is a contributing editor for The New Republic. This article appeared in the April 5, 2012 issue of the magazine.
96 comments
The toughest thing in writing about radical Islam is to figure out a style of composition which allow readers, who don't want to acknowledge the gravity of the situation described here or are even hostile to being informed about it, to process the information given. Berman does a superb job here. He is a master writer who translates difficult information into a language that can be easily assimilated.
- arnon1
March 16, 2012 at 12:44pm
One caveat: the Obama Administration is not trying to protect Islamism, but rather is addressing religious persecution, which is something else altogether. Such resolutions would have saved a gazillion Jews. I believe it's possible to address oppressive religious and political movements, in fact it's imperative that we do (as here at home in the US, with the recent attacks on women) and at the same time protect minorities and the right of people to worship as they choose. However, those rights have limits and again, the arguments here at home are beginning to confront and define them.
- Sophia
March 20, 2012 at 8:09pm
...But Marshall and Shea report that Iran’s Jews, having declined to flee, also decline to raise even the tiniest of wan complaints about their circumstances, which may suggest a high degree of intimidation. There are twenty thousand of these people.... One will remember from a few years ago the controversy between Peretz and Roger Cohen about the latter's "reporting" how tolerant Iran was of its rump Jewish population. Would that this stellar review had then existed to provide the powerfully relevant context.
- basman
March 23, 2012 at 1:13am
More generally, Berman's is both an exhaustive review of a seemingly exhaustive book and an essay in its own right, about which the adjectives that come to mind are illuminating, systematic, comprehensive and eloquent. Berman's essay provides a powerfully relevant context in which to understand the diverse yet unified events he reviews the authors reviewing. Arnon1's incisive initial comment is all to the point.
- basman
March 23, 2012 at 1:33am
Paul Berman is one of the very best contributors to TNR. Without ranting he makes it obvious how political correctness can be used by Islamic extremists to get people to silence themselves. There are moderates in every religion (although they are a minority in Islam), but the real moderates, including those in Christianity, don't have the courage to speak up and publicly denounce the fanatics among them. They leave it to the radicals to denounce them as apostates. In that sense moderates are a serious part of the problem (where are the liberal Christians in the American media?). It's a pathetic world where extremists are described as "moderates" only in comparison to worse extremists. I'm looking forward to re-reading this article in the TNR hard copy I get in the mail.
- magboy47.
March 23, 2012 at 3:16am
Magboy, I don't know whether you're suggesting an equivalence between Christian moderates as against Christian fanatics and Islamic moderates as against Islamic fanatics. If you are, I can't see it.
- basman
March 23, 2012 at 3:24am
Who would want to think freely? It's just so much trouble.
- ironyroad
March 23, 2012 at 3:31am
I didn't read Berman's piece yet (I just printed it out to read later) but I did read see the comments on the Iranian Jews & Roger Cohen's report. A few comments in reaction if I may: a) Roger Cohen does not speak Persian (strange as it may seem); when he interviewed the Iranian Jews, he used a translator supplied by the Iranian government who, oddly enough, also served as a "minder" for both Cohen & the Jews he spoke to. Thus to state as he did that the Jews he spoke to spoke freely and without fear is either the ultimate fantasy or intellectual dishonesty, pick your poison. BTW Cohen did not reveal this in his series of articles on Iran. Rather, he was speaking in a L.A. synagogue of mostly Iranian Jews about his trip & observations. During the questions, a member of the audience confronted him on his knowledge of Persian or lack thereof and who the translator was. As I understand it (but never confirmed the veracity of the story) the questioner stood up and started asking Cohen a question in Persian which of course forced Cohen to 'fess up. b) There are some 20,000 Jews in Iran now but up until the Khomeini revolution the community consisted of several times that. The majority of the Iranian community have left, to Israel, to LA, and other places. c) Some of those who are in Tehran now did try to move elsewhere but couldn't make it there either for financial reasons and/or language and/or inability to integrate and / or missing family they left behind in Iran. Leaving is always easier said than done. Better the devil known that your understand, than the devil unknown that you don't understand. Unfortunately there is a long tradition in Jewish history of not knowing when to leave or just staying behind under impossible conditions because the thought of leaving is not tenable. Some examples: >> There used to be a small but thriving community in Kabul. Up until recently there were two Jews left in Kabul, sworn enemies each of which claimed guardianship over the same synagogue or two separate ones (I forget which). One of them died. The remaining Jew is still there, refusing to leave or join his wife & adult kids who left Kabul a long time ago and live in Israel. >> The bulk of the Yemeni community of course came to Israel in 1949-50 but a handful, less than 100 remained. Some of those finally came to Israel a few years ago. I think there are still a few Jews (<50) left in Yemen. >> After Hitler came to power, many Jews started leaving Germany (many came to then mandatory Palestine) but many more stayed. My paternal grandparents living in Cologne stayed thinking things will get better even as their kids feared playing in the park because they would get beaten up by brownshirts etc. Ultimately they left a day or two before the emigration option ended, and even then were able to get out by leaving everything they had behind & taking a small suitcase per family member. They told the guards at the train that they were going to Belgium for a family wedding (my grandmother was well into her 9th month at the time and ended up giving birth when they arrived in Belgium). After a year in Belgium they were able to get in to the USA. But many Jews stayed behind believing that it couldn't get worse. >> My maternal grandfather left what was then Austria-Hungary & came to the USA with his parents & maybe a brother early in the 20th Century. But after a year or so in NYC my great-grandparents concluded that they couldn't make it in the USA and that they could not be certain that their kids would remain Jewishly observant. So they moved back to the home country to the devil they knew. Without going into all the details, my grandfather & most of his kids manage to survive the war albeit with a stint in Auschwitz for several of them. Obviously other family members (wife, daughter) & extended family members did not. >> Moving to a new country & culture & language is difficult even when you are well prepared for it and are doing it out of ideological reasons. Trust me, I know. d) There is a long and strong history of severe anti-semitism in Shi'ism especially in Iran. Actually under reign of the relatively secular Shah (at least the last one) it was a lot better for the Jews there. But that was the exception rather than the rule. Khomenini's writings & sermons show him to be a rabid antisemite. There was recent web piece on the subject but I can't find it now. Suffice it to say that during the last 500 years or so the Jews of Persia were subject to periodic bouts of repression, physical attack, and forced conversion. e) Many advocate "regime change" as the real solution for the Iranian nuke problem. Sounds good to me. Will someone please tell who is going to put the bell on the cat and more importantly, how is it going to be done. And the outcome should be one that can be trusted with nukes. Guarantied. Shabbat Shalom - שבת שלום Hershel Ginsburg Efrata / Jerusalem
- ginzy
March 23, 2012 at 7:19am
Extremists of all stripes share one feature: piety. Whether Muslim, Christian, or Jew, it's all the same. In my own faith, Christianity, Jesus equates piety with hypocrisy, yet that doesn't seem to trouble the many (and growing number of) pious Christians in my community and elsewhere. "An-Na’im observes that if you do not have the possibility of abandoning your religion, you do not enjoy the possibility of freely embracing it, either." I describe my pious Christian friends similarly: their faith may be a mile wide, but it's only a millimeter deep.
- rayward
March 23, 2012 at 8:11am
Ginzy - thank you for that post.
- Tristan
March 23, 2012 at 9:43am
Say Ray, of the unpious bias, o ye lover of the log in your own eye inclinations, are you drawing a relativist conclusion of content? All things being equal.... etc.
- jacko
March 23, 2012 at 10:00am
Predecessors to Karadawi are Sheik Amin el Husseini, the grand Mufti of Jerusalem broadcasting from Berlin in support of Hitler's effort to exterminate all the Jews. Fathi Shaqaqi who invented the justification of suicide bombing for the PLO that engendered Abbas's Fatah who glorifies killers of Jews every occasion he can find including the jailing of the two who slit the throat of a baby after having knifed the parents and sibling of that baby. Islam itself is on the march and the West's response is that is "Islamophobia." The Jews killed in Toulouse, France can't claim to differ. Nor can the Black paratroopers killed previously by the same Islamic fanatic just because they were Blacks serving in a French uniform. Really not the only reason. Arabs call Black people Slaves "Abed" in Arabic. Up to a generation ago Saudi's still held slaves, Black slaves. Darfur has no other reason than Arabs vile disregard of Black people, Jews, Christians…
- Poupic
March 23, 2012 at 10:08am
and another thing. The Jewish community of Persia is one of the most ancient communities in the world. Jews just celebrated survival in Persia thanks to Queen Esther. Mentioning that there is a Jewish community in Iran (today's name of Persia) is not even fit for a comedy. 20,000 Jews in Persia today? They fled for their life in waves to Israel, to the US, to wherever they could. That the oldest Jewish community has now 20,000 aging Jews means that community is almost gone. It is not even on life support anymore.
- Poupic
March 23, 2012 at 10:17am
It sounds like the bloggers of TNR.
- JAIMECHUCH
March 23, 2012 at 12:21pm
Who is going to do the regime change in Iran? The USA under the orders of Saudi Arabia. The Saudis control the president of the USA . They controlled and ordered all the recent wars, from Bush I, to Clinton, Bush II, and now BHO. Don't blame the neocons, don't blame AIPAC, don't blame Netanyahu. The Saudis are really enjoying how the self hatred Jews, the ultra left neofascists, the Palestinians, Iran demonize and attack Israel and blame Israel for all the ills of the ME. While the Saudis give the marching orders to USA presidents that always obey dutifully. And to add insult to injury we arm them to max while they do nothing, we do their fighting and our men perish.
- JAIMECHUCH
March 23, 2012 at 12:38pm
Who is going to do the regime change in Iran? The USA under the orders of Saudi Arabia. The Saudis control the president of the USA . They controlled and ordered all the recent wars, from Bush I, to Clinton, Bush II, and now BHO. Don't blame the neocons, don't blame AIPAC, don't blame Netanyahu. The Saudis are really enjoying how the self hatred Jews, the ultra left neofascists, the Palestinians, Iran demonize and attack Israel and blame Israel for all the ills of the ME. While the Saudis give the marching orders to USA presidents that always obey dutifully. And to add insult to injury we arm them to max while they do nothing, we do their fighting and our men perish.
- JAIMECHUCH
March 23, 2012 at 12:38pm
Islamic reformers face a formidable obstacle: traditional Islamic texts themselves. The extremists have the Koran on their side. Also the extremists are more willing to kill and be killed. To Rayward: Islamic extremism is more frightening than its Christian and Jewish counterparts. Christendom early on, to its eternal credit, developed separate institutions for Church and State. Which left room for a secular space to develop. That did not occur in Islam where the Caliph is both head of state and Islamic pope. Islamic law (Shariah) is the law of the State and applies to everybody, both Muslim and non-Muslim. Today, Islamic extremists are trying to impose Islamic speech codes on non-Muslim societies. Jewish theocrats, however obnoxious, never had the power of Christian or Islamic theocrats. Roger Cohen, to be restrained about it, is truly self-deluded. He has the full support and acquiescence of the proprietors of the New York Times: the Sulzberger family. For ideological and psychological reasons, they are unable and unwilling to face the harsh truth about the Jews of Iran. This undermines our faith in the New York Times.
- amidut
March 23, 2012 at 1:01pm
"Magboy, I don't know whether you're suggesting an equivalence between Christian moderates as against Christian fanatics and Islamic moderates as against Islamic fanatics." basman, I was suggesting an equivalence in kind, not in degree. Obviously, Muslim extremists know no bounds in their lust for blood. But Christians have had their day in that respect, too. Both Islam and Christianity have been spread around the globe by the sword. And "Christian" politicians like G.W. Bush still invade other nations and try to impose their will on other peoples, often at great expense to their own citizens (although I must admit that I supported the invasion of Afghanistan, because the Taliban regime there was inviting as many terrorists as could fit in that godforsaken country to come and hone their evil skills). I've only seen a very few instances (less than a handful) in the American media of Muslims speaking out against the extremists among them. The vast majority of Muslims who have commented on the subject invoke "Islamophobia" to divert the discussion. But Christian extremists in America are now invoking a "War on Religion" to silence the debate about their agenda. And if you've ever seen the documentary Jesus Camp, you know that many Christians see a future apocalyptic war as the only means to save their religion from non-believers (hmmm, they sound a lot like Islamic extremists). It's too late for Islamic moderates to effect change in their own religion. Islam is dominated worldwide by conspiracy theories and paranoia now, as Berman so eloquently demonstrated. But, apart from the bloggers and commentators in the liberal media like TNR and MSNBC, I don't see Christians speaking up about extremism in their own faith. And they have much less to fear in the way of reprisals than their Muslim counterparts. I would like to see a Republican Party Christian criticize the religious wackos in his or her own party. McCain may be the only candidate for that honor. He did bravely say to a nut-case woman during his 2008 presidential campaign that Obama is not a Muslim. I admire him for that as much as I do for his bravery in a Viet Cong prison camp. Note: This morning Pat Robertson was so "upset" about Denver signing Peyton Manning and dumping the super-Christian Tim Tebow that he implied that the Broncos would deserve being without a decent QB, if Manning gets re-injured. The wrath of the Lord, I guess. Actually, I don't see how Manning can avoid getting re-injured. Fused neck vertebrae? The heads of NFL QB's get slammed into the ground routinely. Here the wrath of DE's and DT's, not that of the Lord, is involved.
- magboy47.
March 23, 2012 at 1:22pm
amidut... "To Rayward: Islamic extremism is more frightening than its Christian and Jewish counterparts" Though I've disagreed with you on some things in the past, this is right on target. I usually go to great pains to defend against broad-strokes bigotry - in this case fear and hatred of all Islam - but radical Islam is truly a grightening thing, and far more dangerous to the world community than its counterparts from other belief systems. Radical evangelical Christianity may be loathsome (in many ways especially loathsome to those of us who believe, who shake our heads in dismay at how twisted these people's "faith" tryly is from what Jesus taught and commanded), but it poses nowhere near the terrifying dangers of radical Islam. I still believe there is nothing in Islam per se that is diametrically opposed to Democvracy and liberal tenets... though some Koranic passages certainly advocate practices wildy opposed to liberal ideas, you can find the same things in Christianity and Judaism. But even with those you wouldn't exactly call radical, militant muslims the inability to acknowledge that a civilized community cannot exist in any form resembling free and democratic without freedom of speech... in this case, the freedom to say things that yes, may be obnoxious and offensive - say, a cartoon lampooning the prophet - but this should not be met with a fatwa against the author or cartoonist or whomever. There is something truly terrifying about a group of people who think it's ok to kill somebody because of something they said or wrote.
- Tristan
March 23, 2012 at 2:29pm
Magboy, you would appear to be one of those old timey easy pickins gotcha kind of sports lover. Why else in Gods name would you concern yourself with anything Pat Robertson has to say? I'm pretty sure that if old Pat were to read this that it would be unlikely he would issue a writ of rape upon my lowly soul. I am fairly wary however of blaspheming the Koran, not so much for my own sake but for that of my family, the fear of violence visited upon their innocents. I would even feel relatively safe wiping my bum with a pic of Jesus. Not so with the hero of Islam. Hell the Jesus thing would get me approval from many quarters standing ready to defend me with the 'Crusades'.... freedom of speech..... what's in a picture? what's the big deal.... you have it coming anyway because you're judgmental midgets anyway.
- jacko
March 23, 2012 at 2:31pm
Magboy thanks for your response. A few points back to you: 1. All to the point here is that difference in degree amounts to difference in kind. That yawning gap of difference explodes the notion of equivalence which becomes exploded down to the non telling, for these purposes, of nature of extremism. There’s a logical fallacy involving the identification of common but not defining characteristics is different phenomena and then on the basis of that shared non significant trait calling the two things equivalent. (Isn’t that an example of a category error?) 2. So I think your erroneous use equivalence is confirmed by your examples of comparison: a. recourse to Christianity over history is a non starter. We are speaking of current Christian apples and other current Islamic apples not the latter and long past Christian oranges; b. it’s inapposite in the extreme to characterize the Iraq and Afghani wars, wrongheaded or not, a debate for another day, as Christian fanatics spreading Christianity. The motives and reasons for those wars, scurrilous or righteous, were secular and so they don’t count as examples of modern day Christian fanaticism; c. I know you’re being light hearted in your note about Tebow/Manning and Robertson, but Robertson is a poster man for what’s thought of Christian fanaticism, American style. To think that he stands in any qualitative comparable way to the picture of intimidation, theocratic suppression by killing and violence, the stirring up of masses to explode in lethal violence over the any perceived slight—say, the cartoons—the pervasive Jew hatred and other things is the height of absurdity. 3. You overlook the structural differences between present day Christianity and Islam so well pointed our above by Amidut and I repeat: … Islamic extremism is more frightening than its Christian and Jewish counterparts. Christendom early on, to its eternal credit, developed separate institutions for Church and State. Which left room for a secular space to develop. That did not occur in Islam where the Caliph is both head of state and Islamic pope. Islamic law (Shariah) is the law of the State and applies to everybody, both Muslim and non-Muslim. Today, Islamic extremists are trying to impose Islamic speech codes on non-Muslim societies. Jewish theocrats, however obnoxious, never had the power of Christian or Islamic theocrats.. 4. Finally, when you read Berman’s reviewing account of the Islamic crushing of true Muslim moderates and liberals and when you consider the deafening Muslim silence even where rule of law and freedom of expression exist over Islamic depredations too many to start listing, how can you even in the same breath the putative lack of outcry against the more extreme statements of the American Christian right and their exemplars. Is Santorum a spokesman for that extreme right? Is he in any telling way qualitatively comparable to those Muslim clerics and political leaders who foment the recurring events of Islamic horribles? Are Democrats comprised in significant number by Christians? Are these Christian Democrats noticeably muted in their criticism of far right Christians? Sorry, but there is no ground for meaningful comparison here.
- basman
March 23, 2012 at 2:52pm
basman, I didn't say that the Iraq War was a Christianizing one. I put "Christian" G.W. Bush in italics and said he started the (Iraq) War to impose his will (not his religion) on the country. Your logic failed you there. But your logic succeeded grandly when you discussed differences of degree and kind. I took several philosophy courses in college (I liked Philosophy of Science best, because the scientific method is the mother of democracy), but Logic courses lost me early. You win that discussion. I had a Logic professor in college who filled 3 blackboards with one mathematical equation about language, and when he turned around to face the class, his fly was open. A buddy of mine had to go up to him and whisper what his transgression was (what we've got here is a failure to zip). I'm not saying you're like him; I'm just saying that I and some philosophy professors get lost in Logic. You know what you're talking about in that respect, and I don't. Don't ever confuse me with an apologist of any kind for Islam. I lived in Detroit, which has the largest per capita population of Arabs outside the Middle East, and I got a firsthand (in-home) taste of the havoc that Islam has wreaked on people, especially women (whom most Arab and/or Muslim men hate). One of the many reasons I'm a Near Leftist, instead of a Far Leftist, is because I can't fathom the extreme Left's painting of Islam as a nation of victims. It creeps me out. But don't think that pent-up Christians in America can't someday convince a U.S. president to bomb Iran, and that could start a world war. Obama is doing very well now by squeezing Iran with sanctions. He and others have the Revolutionary Guard, the Ayatollah, and the president there going at each other's throats because of frozen bank accounts and the lack of materials and goods. Maybe someday there'll be an Iranian Spring (not that it'll change things dramatically). jacko, I've been studying Nazism and Bolshevism and hyper-Christian Tudor England since the Fifties. I believe in knowing mine enemy (extremism). And I do not believe in getting info secondhand from people who believe as I do. I like to go to the source. And you're right. Pat Robertson is an excellent source of Christian fanaticism. He's what they call in history a primary source. I love 'im for that. He's a veritable font of entertainment--until he starts talking about bombing Iran. BTW, he has a liberal tinge. He favors the legalization of pot. Maybe he's high on his show.
- magboy47.
March 23, 2012 at 4:21pm
Ok Magboy, let"s leave it there save to all pants zipped last time I looked.
- basman
March 23, 2012 at 4:33pm
Human beings evolved at a time when about the most damage we could do to each other was by throwing a rock, and when a spear was a “high-tech” weapon of mass destruction. We didn't like or trust strangers (though we liked to get it on with their women so we could spread out genes); and if a tribe was nastier and meaner, the easiest thing to do was move on down the line to the next valley. We don't like to die, so we wrapped ourselves as mummies, and invented Gods, who also punished the wicked and reward the good (who don't get fair treatments in this life). Now instead of rocks and spears, we have jet planes and atom bombs. The world is vastly overpopulated; there's no next valley. The Gods we invented won't go away, and have taken on a life of their own. Come right down to it, monotheism (which we Jews take so much pride in inventing), might not have been such a good idea at that. No wonder so many people persecute us; their jealous. We're the original little girl (and boy) with the curl in the forehead; when we good, we are very, very good; when we are bad...
- skahn
March 23, 2012 at 4:50pm
Meant to say, "They're jealous." (Who invented English, anyway?) Is Hebrew a more sensible, coherent and PURER language than English?
- skahn
March 23, 2012 at 4:54pm
"I lived in Detroit, which has the largest per capita population of Arabs outside the Middle East, and I got a firsthand (in-home) taste of the havoc that Islam has wreaked on people, especially women (whom most Arab and/or Muslim men hate)." Hey! A new reason for dissing Detroit. An unexpected bounty.
- ironyroad
March 23, 2012 at 5:10pm
magboy47 “I was suggesting an equivalence in kind, not in degree. Obviously, Muslim extremists know no bounds in their lust for blood. But Christians have had their day in that respect, too. Both Islam and Christianity have been spread around the globe by the sword. And "Christian" politicians like G.W. Bush still invade other nations and try to impose their will on other peoples…” Magboy, you need to update your knowledge of socio-religious history. Yes, bith Christianity and Islsm conquered to spread their religions. But between the 18th century enlightenment and the present much has changed within the West. A world view arose and while not perfect it didn’t appeal to religion for its cognitive and social understanding of the world. This and not only Christianity is what the murderous Islamists appeal to. Bush went into Iraq putatively to impose democracy and a totalitarian and semi-theological State. This is why many supported his policy. (He also had his own private agenda which was t avenge the plot to kill his father.) I never thought that we could impose democracy in Iraq or any other Arab country. However to suggest that both Christianity and Islam spread their faith by the sword tells me nothing about the conflict today. Many leftists would like to equate democracy and “Christianity” because their own Marxist world view is in tatters and find it more consoling to view Islamism and their own anti-Capitalism-at-any-price comforting.
- arnon1
March 23, 2012 at 6:30pm
amidut: "Islamic reformers face a formidable obstacle: traditional Islamic texts themselves." Although it is true that the Islamic text are rather bloody so is the Hebrew bible. Revelation religions always have at least two components: A revelation, be it a holy book or words of the prophet and a tradition that interprets this revelation. The Islamic tradition tends to interpret the holy book more and more toward extremism. Therefore in my opinion the problem is with the believers rather than the revelation. Poupic: Arabs call Black people Slaves "Abed" in Arabic. Although I have encountered native Arabic speakers most of my life, either through business or socially, I have never heard this expression as denoting a black person. It is usually used as derogatory term, something like the N word in English. If my high school Arabic still serves me right a black person in Arabic is Aswad or Zanji. I think this has become something of an urban myth.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
March 24, 2012 at 12:02pm
Good article. What I'd like to know is: what can ordinary powerless schmo like me do to stop radical Islam from spreading?
- Singlpayer
March 24, 2012 at 12:39pm
"What I'd like to know is: what can ordinary powerless schmo like me do to stop radical Islam from spreading?" Read TNR and write letters to the NY Times editor. They don't print them but they read them.
- arnon1
March 24, 2012 at 2:17pm
...03/24/2012 - 2:17pm EDT | arnon1 "What I'd like to know is: what can ordinary powerless schmo like me do to stop radical Islam from spreading?" Read TNR and write letters to the NY Times editor. They don't print them but they read them... Yeah, that'll do the trick.
- basman
March 24, 2012 at 4:09pm
Sam Harris on Islam and the future of liberalism http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/islam-and-the-future-of-liberalism
- basman
March 24, 2012 at 4:36pm
TNR publishes Berman, etc.
- arnon1
March 24, 2012 at 4:39pm
basman: great article by Harris. Thanks.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
March 24, 2012 at 5:24pm
The Harris article was very good but it addressed a different audience than the Berman essay. Harris has his own blog and was probably writing for the converted. Berman's task was harder because he was writing for a somewhat skeptical audience.
- nr106646
March 24, 2012 at 7:42pm
A propo Harris's concerns about liberalism and Israel's predicament, here is a great sermon by reform Rabbi Stephen Wise: Peter Beinart's Offense against Liberalism http://vimeo.com/39083446
- noga1
March 25, 2012 at 4:26pm
You must have read Rick Richman today because that's where I found Rabbi Wise's fantastic sermon. I sent a copy to everyone I know, left right and centre, pro and not so pro Israel. His oratory is of MLK ian proportions, eloquent, impassioned and compellingly clear. I'm glad you mentioned it here.
- basman
March 25, 2012 at 6:27pm
In Jeff Goldberg's interview with Ben Ami, the head of "J Street" says that Beinart has more passion than sense. "An Interview With Jeremy Ben-Ami on Settlements, Beinart, Obama, the Whole Nine Yards" http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/03/an-interview-with-jeremy-ben-ami-on-settlements-beinart-obama-the-whole-nine-yards/254918/ To me misplaced moral passion can be more lethal than sheer stupidity.
- arnon1
March 25, 2012 at 6:46pm
You know, there are more than a few words which could and should be said about competitive iconoclasticism. It is a hazard of the monotheistic head trip and would seem to be a particular hang up for the illiberal liberal. Hoist upon thine own.....
- jacko
March 25, 2012 at 7:13pm
I'd like to read a transcript of the speech by Rabbi Wise. If anyone has a link, please post it. I liked his opening (too gentle for my taste) criticism of The New York Times. I was reminded this week again why Rabbi Wise's words were so appropriate.
- arnon1
March 25, 2012 at 7:39pm
Just a reminder. Rabbi Stephen Wise died in 1949. The rabbi you heard in Noga's video link is Ammiel Hirsch.
- amidut
March 25, 2012 at 7:59pm
Oh dear. I'm so sorry. What a foolish mistake.
- noga1
March 25, 2012 at 8:14pm
BTW, I thought the "gentleness" of the criticism of the NYT was extremely effective. It was a masterpiece of a sermon. The introduction is a great case of rhetorical understatement. No rage. No fury. Just cool-mindedness, clarity and cognition. Reminded me of Nietszche's comment about Jewish intellect: "Consider Jewish scholars in this light: All of them have a high regard for logic, that is for compelling agreement by force of reason; they know, with that they are bound to win even where they encounter race and class prejudices and when one does not like to believe them. For nothing is more democratic than logic; it is no respecter of persons and makes no distinction between crooked and straight noses.. " (Nietzsche, The Gay Science, 348)
- noga1
March 25, 2012 at 8:20pm
Satan then said: How do I overcome This besieged one? He has courage And talent, And implements of war And resourcefulness. Only this I shall do, I'll dull his mind And cause him to forget The justice of his cause Then Satan Said, By Nathan Alterman
- noga1
March 25, 2012 at 8:31pm
amidut "Just a reminder. Rabbi Stephen Wise died in 1949. The rabbi you heard in Noga's video link is Ammiel Hirsch." Thanks Amidut, maybe I'll be able to find a transcript now.
- arnon1
March 25, 2012 at 8:39pm
Alterman is like a dear old friend of mine. I have been reading his poetry in translation for decades.
- arnon1
March 25, 2012 at 8:41pm
My apologies. I compounded the error. Thanks for the clarification.
- basman
March 25, 2012 at 8:56pm
Rabbi Hirsch spoke at the Rabbi Stephen Wise Synagogue. It's an easy mistake to make.
- arnon1
March 25, 2012 at 8:58pm
I checked out Rabbi Hirsch's bio. It's impressive.
- basman
March 25, 2012 at 9:29pm
Noga, thank you for the text of the Alterman poem.
- amidut
March 25, 2012 at 9:53pm
The English translation, not the text!
- amidut
March 25, 2012 at 9:54pm
I tried to listen to the sermon. I keep coming back to two questions: Why is one of the most intensely religious areas of the world one of the areas most filled with violence, fear, and hate? Isn't the most important task facing human beings today: to move ourselves away from identity politics, whether Jewish, or Christian, or Muslim; or black and white; or straight and gay; or whatever group rows your boat; to one that identify ourselves with compassion, kindness, and tolerance? Two people who come to mind are Gandi and King. Expensive, but what choice do we have?
- skahn
March 25, 2012 at 11:14pm
skahn's booooooooring sermon. We have heard it before, kahn. But you probably forgot you posted it already a dozen and a half times.
- arnon1
March 25, 2012 at 11:19pm
Thank you, Arnon. Guess what? I am troll, I am invincible. Get over yourself, and go back to posting better comments, which you are perfectly capable of doing. But thank you for reading. And thank you for reinforcing my behavior. (Study your Skinner/operant conditioning theory.)
- skahn
March 25, 2012 at 11:40pm
If we're talking about the Middle East, Arab extremism, oil, Israel, and sand, I thought Tom Friedman's piece in today's NYT was a pretty effective summation of the problem: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/opinion/sunday/friedman-a-festival-of-lies.html?_r=1&ref=opinion At the end of the day, we're like the guy who wants to break it off with the girl, wusses out, and ends up being married to her for the rest of his life and getting a friday night poker game with the guys as a consolation prize.
- ironyroad
March 25, 2012 at 11:57pm
skahn 'Thank you, Arnon. Guess what? I am troll, I am invincible." You wish you were but you are neither. You are just a bore, Kahn. BTW: i don't know what region you are talking about. Israel is more liberal and most people there are irreligious especially government officials than in your State of Oregon.
- arnon1
March 26, 2012 at 12:00am
ironyroad "If we're talking about the Middle East, Arab extremism, oil, Israel, and sand, I thought Tom Friedman's piece in today's NYT was a pretty effective summation of the problem" The interesting part of his thesis Irony he borrowed from a Victor Hanson (the neocon). Of course he fucked it up by claiming that settlements in Israel's West Bank were on a par with killings in Afghanistan and Syria. I doubt Hanson would agree. The guy is an obsessed loon when it comes to Israel.
- arnon1
March 26, 2012 at 12:03am
Indeed, I was surprised by both Friedman using the piece and Hanson's original remarks, which appeared remarkably and unusually objective. Arnon, you assert that TF was saying that settlements were "on a par" with the situation in Afghanstan, Syria, etc. I don't believe he was saying that. If you read the piece carefully he's listing the things that the superpower United States of American can't seem to say and/or avoids saying because of previous complications. Of course the settlements aren't "on a par with" mass killings in X or Y Arab or Muslim country -- but they are a significant political problem, damaging to Israel, to Israel's case in the world, (ultimately) to Israel's profile in the United States, and finally -- and this was his point -- to Israel's own political culture. If someone is so sensitive to having Israel even mentioned as a problem of truth-telling for the U.S. in its foreign policy, then there is some serious denial going on.
- ironyroad
March 26, 2012 at 12:20am
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/03/25/thomas-friedman-middle-east-theories-failures/ "In adding Israel to that list, Friedman once again slips in offensive language that is redolent of the Walt-Mearsheimer conspiracy theories about The Israel Lobby. In December, Friedman earned the scorn of the Jewish world for falsely claiming that the Congressional ovations for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu were “bought and paid for by the Israel lobby.” Here, he seems to be repeating that anti-Semitic slur by alleging that the votes of the pro-Israel community — a vast bi-partisan force that encompasses the overwhelming majority of all Americans — has prevented the U.S. from placing enough pressure on the Jewish state. But a different twist on that phrase shows why Hanson rightly did not include Israel in his formulation. It is the “votes” of Israelis — which makes it the one true democracy in the Middle East — that makes it the exception to his rule in which the lack of shared values prevents the United States from establishing a coherent relationship with the other countries in the region. We can debate just how effective a U.S. policy of democracy promotion can be but the one thing that the alliance with Israel proves is that its absence makes a long-term commitment to a nation a shaky proposition. While American Middle East policy has been a mess, Thomas Friedman’s contributions to that legacy as well as his smears of Israel’s supporters deserve prominent mention in any list of such failures."
- noga1
March 26, 2012 at 12:32am
"If someone is so sensitive to having Israel even mentioned as a problem of truth-telling for the U.S. in its foreign policy, then there is some serious denial going on." How is Israel a problem of truth telling for the US? Was Obama's speech to AIPAC "truth telling" or election lies? How exactly are the settlements a problem to a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians? Have the Palestinians ever signaled that they are ready for peace with Israel? We know what Obama thinks. His thoughts do not a truth make, however it might be convenient for you to believe it. Obama understands very little about the Middle East. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
- noga1
March 26, 2012 at 12:40am
"If someone is so sensitive to having Israel even mentioned as a problem of truth-telling for the U.S. in its foreign policy, then there is some serious denial going on." you are barking up the wrong tree, Irony. I don't support settlement building in the West Bank. There was something seriously wrong going on with TF's essay. He was arguing that whatever the US did to bring democracy to the Mid East wasn't the right approach and often led to violence. The US didn't bring democracy to Israel. Zionists brought democracy to Israel and pretending otherwise made TF look foolish.
- arnon1
March 26, 2012 at 12:55am
That's not true.
- ironyroad
March 26, 2012 at 1:10am
What is not true?
- arnon1
March 26, 2012 at 2:19am
There was something dishonest about TF ostensibly adopting Hanson's analysis of the failed relationship between America and the ARAB world and dragging Israel into the mix as if TF was doing no more than supporting and boosting Hanson's position. Hanson is a muscular friend and believer in the utter justness of Israel (unlike the wimpy Beinart or TF who respond to shifting winds of popularity of a cause, rather than principled sobriety). It is a strange article that shows something very muddled and even desperate to please about Friedman's thinking and ability to look, record and draw conclusions. The moment a journalist cares more about making the kind of noises to PLEASE his prospective readers he loses whatever pretense he has to that title. As far as I'm concerned (and many Israelis) Friedman is no more than a useful tool for the anti-Zionists. What does he mean, BTW, by "settlements"? Do you know?
- noga1
March 26, 2012 at 6:55am
The 'settlements' are nothing more than a side show. Such 'if only' is preposterous. It's been a strange thing to watch, this gradual and slow turning ship of ratified victimology.
- jacko
March 26, 2012 at 7:32am
Irony, it’s surprising that as a teacher of writing you wouldn’t catch the jarring note TF’s dragging in the settlements into a pretty decent article about essentially US policy toward non Democratic Arab and Muslim States. It doesn’t matter how he defined the settlements and what his position on it were. The subject just didn’t belong here. It’s like a student of yours turning in a paper on Hawthorne’s criticism of utopianism in The Blithedale Romance and threw in a paragraph on Hawthorne’s Miriam, a Jewish settler in Rome, in his last novel “The Marble Faun.” I am taking the irony road here, but you get my drift. I don’t’ disagree with Noga’s comment on TM, btw, but since I don’t like it when more than one poster gang up on me, I will not go on with anymore criticism of your view on TF for now.
- arnon1
March 26, 2012 at 8:15am
In the main, I thought TF comment on American policy in the Middle East quite persuasive (with the exception noted above). I often find myself liking an article but not agreeing with everything said in it. I had the same problem with Sam Harris’s excellent piece on the liberal obsession with Israel. Yet, I did a double read when I hit the first part of this paragraph: “Consider the position of Israel, which is so regularly vilified by the Left. As a secularist and a nonbeliever—and as a Jew—I find the idea of a Jewish state obnoxious. But if ever a state organized around a religion was justified, it is the Jewish state of Israel, given the world’s propensity for genocidal anti-Semitism. And if ever criticism of a religious state was unjustified, it is the criticism of Israel that ceaselessly flows from every corner of the Muslim world, given the genocidal aspirations so many Muslims freely confess regarding the Jews. Those who see moral parity between the two sides of Israeli-Palestinian conflict are ignoring rather obvious differences in intent.” Why would Sam Harris define himself as a non-religious Jew, as I do, and then see “a Jewish State” only in religious terms? Without getting deeply into the issue, his view just didn’t make sense in the context of the article’s theme. (As with TF it bespoke of some private obsession of his.)
- arnon1
March 26, 2012 at 8:25am
arnon, when I said "that's not true" I meant your comment that suggested that Friedman was claiming that the U.S. brought democracy to Israel. He never said that as it would obviously be a ridiculous and utterly insupportable statement. You also say in the same post, however, "I don't support settlement building in the West Bank." OK. But why? I'd make a wild guess that the answer would be something like Friedman's. So I'm a little puzzled as to why you reacted negatively to that one thread in his piece. I take your Marble Faun reference to heart, but I think the distance from Massachusetts to Rome is further than from Egypt to Israel -- or let me put it this way: I'm not sure that "Israel" and the "Middle East" are two distinct novels in the way that Blithedale and Marble Faun are. What do you think? Curiously, nobody seems to have mentioned the one glaring absence that I see in TF's op-ed -- why the U.S. can't tell the truth to the Palestinians! They enjoy none of the leverage that he lists for the other countries involved, but still we can't tell them -- Hey Palestinians! (1) Israel isn't going away, (2) you can dismantle the high-octane rhetoric so that your own people don't keep imagining a future that isn't there, (3) you need to stop pretending that there's always a better deal around the corner, and settle for a nation-state you can live in, and (4) at some point we are going to stop paying for a kids' pantomime.
- ironyroad
March 26, 2012 at 11:28am
"It is a strange article that shows something very muddled and even desperate to please about Friedman's thinking and ability to look, record and draw conclusions." Noga, I don't think it's very different from much of what Friedman has been saying/writing for years -- just that here he put it in a very succinct form. One can argue that one shouldn't cite another author if one has serious and comprehensive disagreement with the basic view of that other colleague -- which in a certain sense, if you cross a line, is a macro-version of taking remarks out of context in order to use them for one's own purposes. One can also say that all's fair etc -- it depends a bit on the circumstances. In any case I think that TF was within the boundary here as he quoted so substantially from Hanson -- and clearly echoed his finding if not his conclusion -- that it wasn't any kind of malicious cut'n'paste job.
- ironyroad
March 26, 2012 at 11:36am
Good point about omitting reference to the Palestinians in the article, but I think it's of a piece with his irrelevant introduction of settlements into his article. My point was that Friedman's article was a poor piece of writing. It doesn't matter if I agree with his any, all or none of his views. His writings seems to be powered by some powerful nervous tick in his soul and not by a concern with consistency, unity or truth.
- arnon1
March 26, 2012 at 11:59am
"In the main, I thought TF comment on American policy in the Middle East quite persuasive (with the exception noted above). I often find myself liking an article but not agreeing with everything said in it." "My point was that Friedman's article was a poor piece of writing." arnon, I'm getting a headache! How can a "poor piece of writing" be simultaneously "quite persuasive"? I hope you don't have an article somewhere that begins "There is much to admire in Hawthorne's banal and inept novel The Marble Faun" :)
- ironyroad
March 26, 2012 at 12:14pm
I happen to like The Marble Faun. (There is difference between an example and an actual fact.) Tf piece was a flawed piece of writing which made some good points. Any problems with that?
- arnon1
March 26, 2012 at 1:28pm
Er . . . no. None at all. Took an aspirin. Worked like a dream. I'm a fan of Blithedale Romance.
- ironyroad
March 26, 2012 at 1:38pm
Aha. I've figured it out. Why Arnon becomes so unglued by my comments, when otherwise he is perfectly capable of making intelligent, coherent, interesting, and courteous comments.
- skahn
March 26, 2012 at 1:58pm
"I'm a fan of Blithedale Romance." Me too. That will probably give you another headache.
- arnon1
March 26, 2012 at 3:12pm
Could it be that when I am confronted by whining nonsense I get irritated, skahn?
- arnon1
March 26, 2012 at 3:14pm
For those interested in Western intellectual support for totalitarian movements in the third world (including Foucault's support for Hezbollah in Iran) Richard Wolin has written and interesting essay on the subject: http://lareviewofbooks.org/post/18548053684/dreaming-in-chinese His essay is based on a book he wrote on the subject: "The Wind from the East: French Intellectuals, the Cultural Revolution, and the Legacy of the 1960s" by Richard Wolin "Michel Foucault, Jean-Paul Sartre, Julia Kristeva, Phillipe Sollers, and Jean-Luc Godard. During the 1960s, a who's who of French thinkers, writers, and artists, spurred by China's Cultural Revolution, were seized with a fascination for Maoism. Combining a merciless exposé of left-wing political folly and cross-cultural misunderstanding with a spirited defense of the 1960s, The Wind from the East tells the colorful story of this legendary period in France. Richard Wolin shows how French students and intellectuals, inspired by their perceptions of the Cultural Revolution, and motivated by utopian hopes, incited grassroots social movements and reinvigorated French civic and cultural life. Wolin's riveting narrative reveals that Maoism's allure among France's best and brightest actually had little to do with a real understanding of Chinese politics. Instead, it paradoxically served as a vehicle for an emancipatory transformation of French society. French student leftists took up the trope of "cultural revolution," applying it to their criticisms of everyday life. Wolin examines how Maoism captured the imaginations of France's leading cultural figures, influencing Sartre's "perfect Maoist moment"; Foucault's conception of power; Sollers's chic, leftist intellectual journal Tel Quel; as well as Kristeva's book on Chinese women--which included a vigorous defense of foot-binding. Recounting the cultural and political odyssey of French students and intellectuals in the 1960s, The Wind from the East illustrates how the Maoist phenomenon unexpectedly sparked a democratic political sea change in France."
- arnon1
March 26, 2012 at 3:42pm
Here is a link to an earlier book on the same subject: "The Seduction of Unreason: The Intellectual Romance with Fascism from Nietzsche to Postmodernism" http://www.amazon.com/The-Seduction-Unreason-Intellectual-Postmodernism/dp/0691114641/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1332790165&sr=1-3
- arnon1
March 26, 2012 at 3:44pm
I suspect that skahn likes to taunt people, a bad habit that doesn't quite fit in with his proclivity to preach to us here about why can't we all just get along together.
- noga1
March 26, 2012 at 4:45pm
Noga, I'm not sure that I am guilty of taunting you. However, if that is what floats your boat, I will try and fill your tub. I have sometimes noticed that when a person really irritates and exasperates me beyond measure, I realize that the impetus and spur is that I perceive traits and behaviors in the offender that I don't much care for in myself. I am suspecting that there is something in my comments that Arnon fears or dislikes in himself. However, to be fair, sometimes when I really dislike someone, it's because he or she really is a nasty, disgusting, turd smelling slug. So it's possible that A) That is what I am. B) That is what Arnon is. C) That is what we both are. D) Neither of us qualifies. (Though such a conclusion may violate the basic laws of logic.) E) It is also possible that Noga wants to join us in the relationship? I took French, though I never became very good at it. However, the term, I think (though never in my college textbooks) is menage a trois. When we get to three people, the possibilities seem endless. Even more fun if one of us were Jewish, one of us were Muslim, and one of us were an ethical nihilist.
- skahn
March 26, 2012 at 7:27pm
'menage à trois,' I believe.
- ironyroad
March 26, 2012 at 7:46pm
skahn, you are not funny, you are not witty, you are just a conceited ass who thinks the world revolves around you.
- arnon1
March 26, 2012 at 8:07pm
Is it possible that Skahn confuses taunting with wit?
- noga1
March 26, 2012 at 8:41pm
I see one positive development in evidence in TF sometimes confused essay. By going to Victor Hanson's view and drawing from his insight TF is acknowledging the dead end of his own formulations. TF is telling us that we need a synthesis of views taken from his own centrist liberalism and that of Victor Hanson's centrist conservative point of view and people like him. To me this is a step forward; how far forward it's too early to say.
- arnon1
March 26, 2012 at 10:22pm
Ironyroad, your French is much better than mine. Thank you for your good example. While I was a terrible student, my French teachers were mostly irritating, supercilious snots, especially the ones born in France, though they were surpassed by the one born in Paraguay, who considered herself more French than the French. Is it possible that Arnon and Noga are French? If not in "blood," at least in spirit and soul? Arnon, I am sure that I am not funny and I am not witty. However, as long as you keep posting attacks on me, and responding to my comments, it is difficult for me to disabuse myself of the notion that at least one person of is revolving himself around me, or at least racing me to the bottom. Noga, it takes two to taunt; the taunter and the willing tauntee. Is this your first menage à trois? Is it as much fun as you thought it would be? Both of you have written serious comments worthy of consideration. Why you cannot concentrate on doing so instead of feeding my inner troll is a mystery to me, and I suspect incomprehensible to quite a few other people who probably cannot comprehend what bees are in your bonnets. Perhaps the two of you represent the incipient stages of a bee colony suffering from colony collapse disorder? I just skimmed over an extensive Wikipedia article about this problem. It listed many possible causes, though it did not include the presence of an skahn in the hive. Who knew?
- skahn
March 26, 2012 at 10:54pm
skahn, I don't speak French, except when I'm in Marseille and have consumed enough wine and am in an energetic discussion with my friends/hosts there and the German one says more or less ok I'm tired and I'm not translating any more. I know about diacritics, though. All those acute and grave accents and the umlauts (düde!) and that Spanish s with the wiggly line over it. All available via ASCII codes.
- ironyroad
March 26, 2012 at 11:04pm
To get back on topic -- why the hell not? -- there seems to be "good" religion and "bad" religion. I try (with incomplete success) to keep my comments within one "box." I think good religion represents the "angel" in our nature and bad religion represents the "devil" in our nature. While there is no evidence any religious belief is based on anything besides wishful thinking, what we know of evolution, cultural development, and social psychology indicates that humans can be compassionate, caring, and considerate and can be vicious, deadly, and dangerous. As far as I can tell, every major religious beliefs demonstrates all these traits and characteristics. If someone finds my comments on this topic boring, repetitive, and superficial, you can prove your point (not to mention your superiority) by posting better, more original, and more interesting ones, or you can prove your point by insulting me and denigrating this comment. The latter action would prove some point, without a doubt.
- skahn
March 26, 2012 at 11:05pm
Ironyroad, you are indeed witty, intelligent, a gentleman and a scholar. When I was studying (at various times without much success) Spanish, Russian, and French, and when I worked as a typesetter, as a technical writer, and as a computer trainer, I did know about the accents and the umlauts (and so on), and I knew how to produce them with ASCII codes. Now I am old, lazy, bored, and don't give much of a shit, and having much more fun being a troll, especially when there are people who can't resist feeding me.
- skahn
March 26, 2012 at 11:10pm
"...having much more fun being a troll, especially when there are people who can't resist feeding me." Trolling is a kind of sickness. It boggles the mind that anyone would enjoy their sickness.
- noga1
March 27, 2012 at 7:35am
Noga, you seem like a pleasant, intelligent, and sensible person. I don't know you personally, but from previous communications on TNR, I think that I have some idea of your situation, experiences, and motivations. Again, I only troll when people feed me with insults, accusations, and the like. Aside from banning participants (which as a supporter of free speech I don't much care for), an easy way to stop my trolling is to cease the insulting. I don't perceive you as insulting me, but you are getting awfully close. I don't know Arnon's motivations and reasons -- and he is obviously capable of better behavior -- but he continues obsessively. There's an old cliche that runs something along the lines of "The friend of my friend is my friend -- the enemy of my enemy is also my friend." As I am an ethical nihilist I think none of this much matters, but even so, I react with normal human emotions. So you can put yourself (passively or actively) on my side, which makes you a friend of sorts, or you can put yourself on Arnon's side, which makes you ... well, you can figure out the rest of the equation. Enjoy your -- what? -- non sickness?
- skahn
March 27, 2012 at 12:03pm
"Noga, you seem like a pleasant, intelligent, and sensible person." You should never conflate appearance with substance. You should never assume that people are taken in or mollified by such phony praise. And you should never assume that you can get any idea about anybody's "situation, experiences, and motivations" from their cyberspace persona. I don't make such far-reaching assumptions about you. I only respond to the words you commit to your comments here. It is clear to me that you like to taunt certain posters here, myself included from time to time. That is not acceptable etiquette but it's a free country so there is nothing anybody can do about it. You are right that you should be ignored. But such is the nature of a taunt that it is very difficult to ignore. It's not the content of the taunt that bothers. It is the very presence and motivation of a taunt that cause offense.
- noga1
March 27, 2012 at 1:13pm
Noga, it is certainly true that communication via an electronic medium is very difficult and uncertain. For that matter, communication in person by face to face human beings is very difficult and uncertain. (That is one reason that divorce courts and other courts are always very busy.) I will point out again that Arnon1, a frequent and often articulate and intelligent comment poster, frequently posts irritating and stupid comments about me. I perceive no reason not to post irritating and stupid comments about him. I see no reason for you to join in this stupid exchange. However, if you do so, I suggest you aim at least some of your criticism at him. When I post a comment to you, I do not think I am "taunting" Noga. I suggest that both you and Arnon think about what you want (in regard to me); express it clearly, politely, and comprehensively, and then we can go from there. If you want me to stop posting comments at TNR, that is unlikely. If you want me to stop posting comments addressed to either or both of you, that can be a topic for negotiation. Perhaps there is some under-under-under-under-Secretary of State assigned to Middle East peace negotiations who can assist us in the matter, in between talks with the Libyans, Iraqis, Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, Israelis, Turks, Iranians, and so on. Which task would be more difficult?
- skahn
March 27, 2012 at 5:39pm
skahn: What extraordinary strange things to say, and with such seriousness! There is nothing whatsoever I "want" from you. What are you to me? Why make it personal? With all due respect and I think you like to taunt people just because they respond to you irritably and that for some reason makes you happy as a troll. When you do that and draw negative attention to yourself it may cause a bit of fuss but no more than that. I think most posters simply leap over your comments. I think it is bad form to taunt people. It's a sort of bullying but as it comes from you, it is not really a bullying but a sickly kind of pastime. You remind me a little of Uriah Heep.
- noga1
March 27, 2012 at 9:05pm
Noga, your comments to me are getting stranger and stranger. However, I can keep this up as long as you can. I am not sure what you mean by the word "taunt." "I think most posters simply leap over your comments." Indeed, I am sure that is true, and indicates that most posters are sensible people. I invite you to become a sensible person and leap over my comments.
- skahn
March 27, 2012 at 9:37pm
" I invite you to become a sensible person " I thought you already ajudged me to be a "pleasant, intelligent, and sensible person." You can't even keep up with your own pretensions. You can look up the verb "taunt". You've got google, I presume.
- noga1
March 28, 2012 at 7:59am
I will say to you what I have said to other people in other contexts. On line forums are not very nice places. They are something like the equivalent of "biker bars"; places where rather rough people congregate and where brawls often break out. I got beat up when I was in fifth grade and seventh grade, convincing me that I have little talent for physical combat, so I avoid "real" physical biker bars. But I've never learned my lesson in regard to forums such as this. However, some people get their feelings easily hurt, and are easily upset when they participate in the on line brawls. So participation in forums such as this (as noble and refined as I am sure TNR considers itself) is probably not a good idea for everyone. But it's up to you. Maybe you are getting tougher with practice.
- skahn
March 28, 2012 at 10:38am