POLITICS MARCH 5, 2012
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The 2012 GOP nominating contest has witnessed the final triumph of an unlikely figure. I say “unlikely” because his name hasn’t been invoked much (if at all) by any of the candidates, nor has he been mentioned frequently by the press in its campaign coverage. What’s more, he died in 2007. Yet when historians someday go looking for the intellectual and ideological father of the Obama-era GOP, I suspect they will fixate on one figure above all others: the Reverend Jerry Falwell.
That may sound odd: After all, Falwell was a social conservative; and social conservatives, while undoubtedly powerful within the GOP, are commonly thought to be just one of several key constituencies that make up the modern Republican Party. Moreover, isn’t the animating philosophy of today’s GOP deeply libertarian—and aren’t libertarians the intellectual descendants of anti-Christian thinkers like Hayek, von Mises, and Rand? Plus, you might point out, Falwell was an evangelical Protestant, and the three finalists for the GOP nomination this year are a Mormon and two Catholics. Can his influence really have been that strong?
In a word, yes. Falwell helped to lay the groundwork for the coalition of Protestants, Catholics, and Mormons that now makes up the social conservative wing of the GOP—and helped to bring this coalition of social conservatives into an even larger coalition with fiscal conservatives and foreign-policy conservatives. Moreover, it was Falwell who did more than anyone—even Ronald Reagan—to foreshadow the political style of the contemporary GOP, a style rooted in orthodoxy and disdainful of compromise. In short, if at any point during the past few years you’ve found yourself wondering how the Republican Party got to its present state, understanding the worldview of Jerry Falwell is a good place to start.
IN 1981, ONE OF Reagan’s top aides, Michael Deaver, told an interviewer that evangelicals like Falwell were welcome in the White House, but they had to come through the back door. When Falwell did come for a visit, Reagan assured him he could always come through the front door. Falwell told reporters, “Mike Deaver probably couldn’t spell ‘abortion.’”
The incident, and others like it, gave rise to a narrative that traditional conservatives like Deaver (who were more focused on fiscal matters), social conservatives like Falwell, and foreign policy hawks were three distinct groups within the Reagan coalition—all pitted against each other in a battle for influence within the party. But this narrative was far too simplistic because it grossly underestimated the degree to which these groups would eventually merge. And, in many ways, it was Falwell who presided over that merger.
Even before the 1980s, evangelicals had long supported free market economics and a strong foreign policy. Their commitment to both capitalism and a strong military was rooted in their pronounced anti-communism. Earlier evangelical preachers such as Carl McIntire in the 1950s had voiced their enthusiasm for Senator Joseph McCarthy’s anti-communist witch hunts. But for Falwell, the links between capitalism, foreign policy, and religion ran especially deep.
Falwell’s laissez-faire economic views stemmed from a particular theological perspective: his hostility to the Social Gospel movement. During the first decades of the twentieth century, liberal Protestant pastors, such as Walter Rauschenbusch, had encouraged Christians to move beyond traditional charitable concern for the poor and to support the social welfare state as an ethical matter. Falwell strongly opposed this position. In 1965, he delivered a sermon entitled “Ministers and Marches,” in which (ironically) he criticized Martin Luther King and other preachers for being too politically engaged. The sermon was printed in leaflet form to assure its widespread distribution. In that sermon, Falwell condemned the Social Gospel movement as unbiblical. “Education, medicine, social reform, and all the other external ministries cannot meet the needs of the human soul and spirit,” he told his congregation. For Falwell and other fundamentalists, efforts to improve this world detracted from the effort to attain the next.
Still, Falwell ended up backing into an exception to his lack of concern with worldly matters: anti-communism. Two years after his “Ministers and Marches” sermon, he placed advertisements in a local newspaper for two Sunday evening sermons on “godless Communism” at Thomas Road Baptist Church in Virginia. Several years later, in 1975, Falwell’s commitment to American exceptionalism, in contradistinction to communism and European-style socialism, manifested itself in a series of “I Love America” rallies. He would fly the choir from his school, then called Lynchburg Baptist College, around the country, invite local pastors and their congregations, erect a flag-bedecked stage on the steps of the state capitol building, and give an address filled with the kind of encomiums to American exceptionalism that Sarah Palin would later make a staple of her stump speech. Reagan, too, expounded a version of American exceptionalism, but it was Falwell who gave it the distinctly religious character it enjoys today, which sees the American founding as a quasi-salvific event and treats the constitution as a semi-sacred text. “The United States Constitution has as its cornerstone the Ten Commandments,” Falwell told his television audience in March 1976. “I was reading the Constitution this week. It is a masterpiece. I don’t believe it was written under divine inspiration like the Bible, but I indeed believe it was inspired. … There’s no question about it, this nation was intended to be a Christian nation by our founding fathers.”
When Falwell finally decided to jump into the political fray by forming the Moral Majority in 1979, the group’s political platform had four over-arching themes. It would be pro-life, pro-family, pro-moral, and pro-American. This last theme entailed support for a tough U.S. foreign policy. An early piece of Moral Majority literature warned against an “unprecedented lack of leadership” with the “danger of capitulation to the Soviet Union a very possible result.” In the South, where Franklin Roosevelt had often located new military bases as a way to secure the support of conservative southern senators for other parts of his political agenda, the military was becoming a central part of the culture—more so than in other regions of the country. The South was also, of course, the evangelicals’ geographic base. All of this made it the perfect environment for Falwell’s marriage of conservative theology and hawkish foreign policy.
Many commentators voiced alarm when President Reagan, in a press conference on his ninth day in office, denounced détente with the Soviet Union. In fact, he was using words that could have been lifted from any of a number of Falwell’s sermons or from the preacher’s 1980 book Listen, America, which included a chapter on fighting communism. Here was Reagan: “I know of no leaders of the Soviet Union since the revolution, and including the present leadership, that has not more than once repeated in the various Communist congresses they hold their determination that their goal must be the promotion of world revolution and a one-world Socialist or Communist state, whichever word you want to use.” And here was Falwell on the same subject: “The Soviets have always had one goal, and that is to destroy capitalistic society. They are a nation committed to communism and to destroying the American way of life.” What’s more, the fear of a one-world state—which Reagan alluded to—had important implications in the universe of fundamentalist thought. A 1980 mailing from Falwell’s “Old-Time Gospel Hour” warned that the time of Tribulation foretold in the Bible would witness a “Russian invasion of Israel” (although Russia is not mentioned in the Bible), and warned that “A powerful ruler, led by Satan and referred to as the Anti-christ, will rise to power. After leading the nations to form an alliance to help preserve the world system, he will break the treaty and be responsible for persecuting the nation of Israel and leading the last great battle against the forces of God in the battle of Armageddon.”
In the spring of 1981, the newly installed Reaganites made the decision to lead with their economic agenda, not with the divisive social issues like abortion and gay rights that were understood to be the principal concern of Christian conservatives. Some interviewers were surprised when Falwell told them he endorsed this decision. “I don’t think the president is sidestepping the moral and the social issues,” he explained on “Face the Nation.” “I think he wants to give [his economic agenda] the full shot.” But Falwell did more than support Reagan’s decision to emphasize economic issues. He also lent him cover for his proposed cutbacks in social programs. “We must be sensitive to the fact that we cannot ignore the presence and the needs of the poor among us,” Falwell said in that same interview, “and I think that is where the churches must quickly move in, particularly conservative churches of which I am a part, and fill the vacuum that no doubt the country can no longer fill.”
For Falwell, then, being a social conservative was not simply a matter of denouncing abortion and gay rights. It also meant fealty to laissez-faire economics and to an aggressive foreign policy. But even as he was helping to make evangelicals into hard-right fiscal conservatives and foreign policy hawks, Falwell was also doing something else: giving them permission to form alliances with other religious groups. Before Falwell, fundamentalists were warned against being “yoked” with non-believers, and a “non-believer” was anyone who did not share the core beliefs of evangelical Protestantism. Mormons, Catholics, and most liberal Protestants did not make the cut. But, after reading Francis Schaeffer’s teachings on “co-belligerency”—the idea that believers and non-believers could cooperate—Falwell came to see the necessity of working with non-fundamentalist but conservative believers of other creeds. This newfound awareness of ecumenical possibilities came to Falwell in the late 1970s, just as he was being encouraged to get politically involved by GOP operatives. If Simon the Cyrene could help Jesus carry his cross, Mormons and conservative Catholics and fundamentalist Baptists could join forces to defeat liberalism. In the early years of the Moral Majority, Falwell would brag that a third of the group’s members were Roman Catholic.
And so it is that the three remaining Republican candidates for president (excluding Ron Paul, who has one ideological foot outside the GOP) are a Mormon and two conservative Catholics. Without Falwell, it seems quite possible that none of their candidacies—let alone the entire coalition that presently forms the Republican base—would have been possible.
BUT PERHAPS THE MOST profound impact Falwell had on the modern GOP was that he promoted the language and the logic of orthodoxy in conservative politics. In doing so, he paved the way for the emergence of a Republican Party that is incapable of compromise, in which moderate Republicans are seen as betrayers—a party that nominates Christine O’Donnell over Mike Castle, and is in the midst of a primary campaign that has focused less on experience or electability than on adherence to the Tea Party creed.
This was a key area where Reagan and Falwell differed—and where today’s GOP is really more in line with the preacher than with the ex-president. Reagan was a tolerant, pragmatic man. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence suggesting as much: the fact that he got his start in Hollywood, that he opposed a 1978 California ballot initiative which would have barred homosexuals from teaching in public schools, that he was divorced, and that he was, according to his biographer, Lou Cannon, “not the sort of person who bothers about what people do in their own bedrooms.”
The upshot here is not simply that Reagan was a lot less interested in social conservatism than today’s typical Republican. It was that, with the exception of some of his rhetoric about the Soviet Union, he tended to eschew the harsh Manichaeism, the rigid obsession with orthodoxy in all political matters, that now defines the Republican Party. Orthodoxy, by contrast, was the signature of Falwell’s style. And irony, tolerance, and pragmatism were never his strong suits. They did not sit well with the earnestness and literalism of fundamentalist Christianity. “In the intellectual battle of the present day there can be no ‘peace without victory’; one side or the other must win,” J. Gresham Machen, a professor of New Testament at Princeton Theological Seminary and one of the founding lights of fundamentalism, wrote in 1923. Falwell’s folksy sermons transferred this absolutism about church doctrine to the political realm. “We are developing a socialistic state in these United States as surely as I am standing here right now,” Falwell preached in one sermon. “Our give-away programs, our welfarism at home and abroad, is developing a breed of bums and derelicts who wouldn’t work in a pie shop eating the holes out of donuts.”
It was this cast of mind, the sense that political and religious facts were as obvious as his “standing here right now,” that was arguably Falwell’s principal contribution to the shaping of the modern GOP. Yes, Falwell made abortion a key issue; he liked to say that you could no longer run for the Republican nomination to be dog catcher without articulating your position on abortion. But the arrival of an orthodox temperament to Republican politics was not only about abortion or about social issues. It soon extended to everything.
Whatever the value of Falwell’s black-and-white approach to theological debates, this worldview, when carried over to the political realm, resulted in a coarsening of discourse and increased ideological rigidity. Politics does not save, but the newly engaged religious right brought all the fervor of, well, evangelists, into discussions of economics, foreign policy, the environment, and a host of what had previously, and properly, been considered mundane concerns. With evangelical voters, everything took on an eschatological veneer. “Falwell’s speech is not like secular speech,” wrote Professor Susan Friend Harding. “He inhabits a world generated by Bible-based stories and, as a ‘man of God,’ his speech partakes of the generative quality of the Bible itself.”
Before Falwell, if liberals wanted to increase the minimum wage by one dollar and conservatives did not want to increase it at all, they could compromise and raise the minimum wage by fifty cents. Before Falwell, the American public’s ambivalence about abortion could find expression in the Hyde Amendment, which does not prohibit abortion but denies federal funds for the procedure. After Falwell, such compromises were seen not as part of the art of governance, but as a betrayal of first principles. After Falwell, conservatives could not entertain differences of opinion on many issues without being accused of political heresy. Grover Norquist is as much Falwell’s heir as any preacher. Stephen Schneck, director of Catholic University’s Institute for Policy Research & Catholic Studies, puts it this way: The Tea Party’s “zeal, anger, conviction of righteousness, and its prophetic engagement in the world have a fervor beyond mere partisanship or political ideology. Maybe crusade is the right word.”
FOR YEARS, FALWELL’S INFLUENCE seemed to be everywhere. His ministry purchased a plane to facilitate his campaign-style speaking tours, rallying the troops. And the influence of his Lynchburg Baptist College, which grew into Liberty University, was significant as well. “Television and radio are effective; the local church here is effective; our speaking tours are effective,” Falwell told Christianity Today in 1986. “But my hope for making an impact on the world with this generation and generations to come is to train young people in the things that are vital to the cause of world evangelization.” The school’s journalism and government programs, and its law school, which opened in 2004, have trained an array of influential conservatives from Shannon Bream of Fox News to Tony Perkins, head of Focus on the Family. In 2010, Liberty University brought one of the first lawsuits against the Affordable Care Act.
In recent years, pundits have generally been slow to recognize the degree to which Falwell influenced the modern GOP. Still, as frustration and bewilderment with the state of the Republican Party has grown, some pundits have begun to point to the connection between fundamentalism and the current Republican mindset—a connection that Falwell did much to establish. “Conservatives have created a box of orthodoxy so small that even the most conservative candidates must engage in contortions just to fit,” former Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson wrote in The Washington Post this past November. “Many political activists have adopted a form of fundamentalism: the belief that a return to power can be achieved only by a return to purity.” For a community of believers, orthodoxy certainly does matter and heresy really is a threat. But, as Gerson rightly indicates, politics requires agility as well as firmness, pragmatism as well as principle. Gridlock can be as threatening in politics as compromise. Besides, Christians are called to be “stubborn in the Lord” not stubborn in the tax code.
Issues, and the events that lend them currency, may come and go, with the electorate focused at different times on different policies. Falwell’s legacy is that he shaped the way the Republican Party approaches all issues. Without the temperamental revolution that Falwell authored, it seems unlikely that Mitt Romney would have felt compelled to describe himself as “severely conservative” during his recent appearance at the Conservative Political Action Conference, or that Rick Santorum, a deeply flawed politician whose main selling point is the sanctimony of his worldview, could have vaulted to the lead in national polls of Republicans. And without the intra-religious coalition of social, economic, and foreign policy conservatives that Falwell helped to assemble, the Republican Party would not be the entity it is today. The party of Reagan? Please. Today’s GOP is the party of Jerry Falwell.
Michael Sean Winters is the author of God’s Right Hand: How Jerry Falwell Made God a Republican and Baptized the American Right.
26 comments
EXCELLENT portrait of Falwell and his ugly legacy. It confirms what I've been telling people for years--that the intransigence in all areas of policy, including economics, of today's Republicans is a result of the infiltration of their party by religious fanatics. Even Republican atheists have a religious-type rigidity about them. I've been studying "atheist" police states for many decades, and the present GOP reminds me of the religious-type fanaticism in those states. Fortunately for our country, we Americans have not allowed Republicans to take over our nation completely. Not that they don't want to. Karl Rove and other Republican operatives have fantasies of an America controlled by the GOP forever. That's why they go into a furious rage when Democrats like Clinton and Obama get into the Oval Office. One of the most chilling videos I've ever seen is one of President G.W. Bush telling members of a black church that America doesn't need government rules; the only rules it needs are those in the Bible. Falwell bragged in the media about being a frequent visitor to the Bush White House, where he "advised" the president. And now the chilling chickens of his advice are coming home to roost. Many of our founding fathers were Deists. They knew the danger of marrying a particular religion to the state. State religionists have spilled more blood in history than all the "atheist" dictators put together. Jerry Falwell's fanaticism betrayed everything that America stands for, beginning with the Constitution.
- magboy47.
March 5, 2012 at 1:21am
Wow. This is truly illuminating.
- chaitless
March 5, 2012 at 1:36am
Check this out - Catholic Cardinal calling for "freedom of religion war," http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/nyregion/cardinal-timothy-m-dolan-urges-catholics-to-become-more-politically-active.html
- Sophia
March 5, 2012 at 1:45am
I agree with magboy. The deranged-over-abortion faction of the post-Gerald Ford GOP reminds me of the Taliban in their language and slanders, based on having forced myself to read some of their recent online postings elsewhere. Truly unfortunate that the post-W Democratic Party forgot to include fiscal conservatives. The American experiment in representative democracy has failed. NO country for old people who know how to budget.
- K2K
March 5, 2012 at 9:01am
It's all about fear. Fear of communists. Fear of Muslim terrorists. Fear of economic collapse. Fear of modernity. Fear. It's the most powerful motivator. Falwell was not so much a religious leader as a fear monger. The growing ranks of today's evangelical Protestants are different. For them, it's all about community, a community of like-minded Christians, Protestant Christians who believe in God's grace above all else, including "good works" in this life. That helps explain the explosion of community churches and the spread of the prosperity gospel. And helps explain the opposition to such social programs as Obamacare. Falwell's brand of fear mongering works well with tea partiers, fundamentalists, xenophobics, and, yes, racists, but only goes so far with today's evangelical Protestants. Then again, the split among Christians between those who believe in God's grace alone as the path to salvation and those who believe God's grace doesn't exist in the absence of "good works" (whether in the sense of caring for widows and orphans or adherence to Jewish law) goes back to the beginning of the Christian faith. Not much has changed in two thousand years. It would be helpful if we knew where Falwell went when he left this life for the next.
- rayward
March 5, 2012 at 9:37am
I agree the article and the comments are excellent. As religious author Karen Armstrong has indicated, the world seems to be dividing into two main groups fundamentalists vs. kind and charitable people on the other hand. I guess a BIG question is: can fundamentalists be domesticated? When I attended the Republican caucus, one gentleman (obviously very conservative in political and religious belief) gave me a 20-minute sermon about the essence of Christianity being love. I did not beat him about the head and shoulders demanding that he allow my daughter and daughter-out-of-law to get married (as they clearly love each other), but I take his sermon as indicating about a .000000000001% indication of the de-talibanization of the American taliban branch. However, I am not willing to become a vegan this year.
- skahn
March 5, 2012 at 10:07am
My family has a, um, history with Jerry Falwell, so I'm a bit surprised that the article does not mention Falwell's support of segregation. (Yeah, I know he apologized later, but still.)
- timteeter
March 5, 2012 at 12:35pm
Regardless of the brand they're pitching, be it love, fear or prosperity, be they Bishops or evangelicals, these are religious groups who are not willing to let the American plurality, in all its glorious diversity, just exist for its own sake. They are aggressive and are making a real stab at acquiring and consolidating political power. I realize I am stating the obvious but for me this is a huge shock since I assumed we all believe in the Constitution and in the sacredness of the American dream; that's the umbrella under which we all shelter. Where does this religious aggression leave religious minorities, atheists, agnostics and others who don't happen to share their values? Women for example; we are "sluts, prostitutes and feminazis" if we want to use contraceptives? If we seek equal rights in the workplace, we are "nazis"? If we seek family planning we should put sex films on the tube? In Texas, they've passed a law that essentially assaults women seeking legal recourse to unwanted pregnancy. It forces the doctors to stick a ten inch ultrasound probe up the vagina and forces the woman to watch. The doctor then has to engage in what amounts to mental torture of a woman who is already in a fraught situation. This is like something out of WWII as far as I am concerned. Women are being set up for legal torture, for rape by the state, because SOME people in Texas have certain religious values about perfectly legal rights obtained by women many decades ago. All too often these religious values are misogynist. They are not modern, they can be repressive and insulting. Frequently they are effectively anti-semitic and Islamophobic. I've been at a seder where an Evangelical person told me and my cousin that the hagaddah shouldn't be used since it wasn't what Jesus used at the Last Supper. In other words here we have a born-again telling a couple of Jews how to conduct Passover. It was insulting and we were very uncomfortable. Of course he tried to convert US. Now this guy goes to Mexico to convert Catholic Mexicans to his brand of religion which of course includes, getting plenty of money for HIM. Faith is enough to get into Heaven, not having faith will send you to hell; meanwhile, it's good to be rich! Anyway, past a certain point, that of the right of individuals to worship how they wish, the church does not belong in the business of the state, which represents the people and our resources as a whole. We can as individuals put up with insults (not that we should have to) and part of the American dream is getting as much money as possible, apparently. But, I don't think the state is well-equipped to fend off a determined attack by religious zealots. For one thing, freedom of religion is sacred in America; which is part of the greatness of our state. But, it makes us queasy about even discussing these things. Well, I think we have to discuss them. It's like class. Nobody has wanted to discuss money in America. But clearly it is a huge issue, and I'm glad we're starting to recognize it, even if it makes the Romneys of the world uncomfortable. The same goes for religious superstitions. They are legal. But, do they have the right to take over the country? Should religious institutions challenge the freedom and power of the American PEOPLE? When the fundamentalists started to appear, I told myself, these guys will never become really popular; they are just too extreme. Boy was that a mistake. Their goal all along wasn't getting into heaven, it was taking over the earth, starting with us.
- Sophia
March 5, 2012 at 1:21pm
Dolan's broadside makes him look like some Falwell guy in a cassock, and just think -- there used to be something a bit less mean-minded about Catholicism, more universal in its resonance. It puzzles me -- the Catholic Church is a religious body in certain areas, and in others it's an employer subject to the law, with many non-Catholic employees. Why does it seek to act like a community of the faithful in a context where it's clearly not that? They writhe in indignation at the thought that the state might come between an individual and his or her doctor, but they have no issue with an employer doing the same.
- ironyroad
March 5, 2012 at 1:48pm
Very good article and very good comments. rayward, you're on the mark with your stress on "fear" and in the hands of Falwell and offspring, any and all change is used to promote a sense of unease amongst the flock. It is spirituality turned on its head to a great extent. Our spiritual side and religious practices are supposed to help us form a moral foundation with which we can make sense of and remain tethered in an ever-changing world. Falwell preached a gospel (note the decision not to capitalize) that promoted a vision that change must be stopped and we see that today. ironyroad, I don't disagree with your sentiment, but I think it's important to differentiate between the Catholic Church and Catholics. The Vatican has retrenched on a number of issues since Vatican II and those changes seem to be more seismic right now for some reason (maybe it's having Santorum on the stage).
- Lundell
March 5, 2012 at 2:11pm
K2K - There are plenty of fiscally conservative Democrats who know how to budget and understand moral hazard. I'm one of them, as are my parents. As is Barack Obama. Like many (not all) of my kind, I was once a Republican, from a long line of midwestern Republicans, until that party was co-opted by Falwell and his kind. Unlike the voodoo fantasists that pass for "fiscal conservatism" among modern Republicans, I understand that government expenses need to be balanced by revenues, that tax cuts for the wealthy don't make money fall from the magic money trees, that a developed economy can't survive without public investment in infrastructure, education, defense, and the environment, that regulation is necessary, and that the needs of both labor and capital are important.
- krlong014
March 5, 2012 at 3:04pm
It seems the most politically active Evangelicals (regardless of persuasion) and Fundamentalists have conflated agape with eros. They've traded in the unconditional love of God towards Man & the reciprocating love towards others in for the eros of power, money, and dominance. I'm not a religious person myself. I've studied Western religion and philosophy in college and on my own but have never felt "at home" within the Church. And while I attend Catholic masses with my wife & her family, whom are Catholic, I'm still very much agnostic in my world view even if I find attending mass at the Episcopal church I was baptized at or with my in-laws. I find the prosperity gospel being spread by TV evangelists disingenuous and contrary to the original intent of Christ's gospel. It really ends up being a sly way of justifying greed and power grabbing.
- singlspeed
March 5, 2012 at 3:15pm
I agree with every comment posted so far, which is my (not very truthful) way of segueing into a social science insight I had while attending the Republican caucus. Although my evidence is anecdotal; not double-blind tested, and not quantified by accurate record-keeping, I still think I am correct. Human beings prefer to evangelize others about 100 times more often than they are willing to be evangelized. For example, when I quietly announced that I more often vote Democratic than Republican, I was greeted with enthusiasm and delight by the Republicans who assumed 1) That I was on the first steps to seeing the "light" and 2) was open to seeing their particular hue of "light." That I might be [that very eccentric creature] a person attending out of curiousity and a willingness to communicate with people of a different belief system than mine, did not particularly seem to enter their nervous systems. When I tried (very quietly and politely) to evangelize [stop using "Obama care" as a racial-epithet like insult; to straw vote for Gary Johnson rather than Ron Paul; and to avoid signing the petition to repeal homosexual marriage in Washington state] my efforts were greeted mostly with the equivalent of a kid's putting hands over ears and saying "I'm not hearing you --- LA LA LA LA. Is TNR any more open-minded and willing to consider new ideas than the GOP people who caucused across the country? Pobably. Otherwise, would a person as perceptive (even if close to demented) as I am participate here? However, I will also argue: 1) Let's have some Muslims participating here. 2) Let's have a few more conservatives and let's be more polite to the ones who do. Bulbman? Seattle? Any more 3) Let's learn to disagree without irrelevant insults? I know. No fun unless we have a war and an enemy. OK, everybody commit a rude gesture in the direction of Rush Limbaugh.
- skahn
March 5, 2012 at 5:09pm
Interesting, K2K, you use the word "Taliban." A good friend who lives in Oklahoma calls it "The Christian Taliban." Colorful, surely, but it really does fit the all-out take no prisoners attitude.
- Tgossard
March 5, 2012 at 5:27pm
Lundell -- yes, I agree. I should have made it clear I meant the hierarchy, not Catholics in general. skahn -- it's difficult to maintain being polite to conservative posters if they start issuing blanket condemnations of liberals or whatever 0.5 seconds after they show up. For example, bulbman (although a curious and ultimately harmless creature, I believe) couldn't seem to post a single comment without lecturing everyone on how they were unpatriotic traitors and enemies of America. It's tiresome.
- ironyroad
March 5, 2012 at 5:59pm
It's difficult to maintain being polite.... 1. This statement (taken out of context) is true. Even if Bulbman is wrong and irritating, being more irritating and perhaps as wrong hardly improves the situation. As you say, at worst he is a curious and harmless creature, that hardly puts him into Assad territory. Keep in mind Kahn's law: people are 100 times more motivated to evangelize than be evangelized. The corollary is people are 100 times more likely to try to change minds than have their minds changed. Here's my suggestions (which I also suggest to those who regard me as irritating and/or wrong. 1. Point out factual mistakes with documentation and good arguments. 2. Point out opinion/value mistakes with polite arguments. In other words, do not lie down in the mud with the pig to demonstrate your kosher qualifications and qualities. Or, whatever.
- skahn
March 5, 2012 at 8:01pm
If you look back in American History, there have been several religious and quasi-religious uprisings, Temperance being only one of them. We weren't there so we can not have witnessed the fanaticism. Among orthodox protestant groups there are constant references to Satan, Satan's power and determination to corrupt as many as possible before the end. Some of this has bled over to Catholicism. Add to that millenialism, which ever more insistently warns of The Rapture, even as it looks forward to it. The idea of conversion is key to all these movements, and conversion breeds fanaticism. The sentimental character of extreme religious groups only makes this worse.
- Tgossard
March 5, 2012 at 8:10pm
Oops. Skahn, be careful about italics or bold in your comments. Somehow html language goes haywire in these threads so we end up having all italics, bold, and bold italics.
- Tgossard
March 5, 2012 at 8:16pm
A good discussion is to be found here. As to welcoming conservatives, I'm sure many of the commenters are willing to hear conservative ideas and have civil conversations. After all, the Democrats are a centrist party because they try to apply social democratic (left-wing) insights to a market-oriented (centre-right) state built from a 223 year-old Constitution with very few positive rights (right-wing/libertarian). The problem here is that cap-and-trade is a centre-right idea. Carbon taxes and strict regulations would be centre-left. So-called Obamacare is centre-right. The NHS would be thoroughly left-wing and Canada's system is centre-left. Conservatives have so radically shifted the goalposts that they don't realize that to be a Democrat is often to be a conserative and to be a Republican is to be a radical. That and the splenic partisanship of the Republican bots that peremptorily defecate ideology without wishing to have a level-headed discussion dooms your longing for some reasonable conservative voices. I did really like it when Jim Manzi and Michael Kazin had a left-right section on the website, though. And David Frum is good to consult--at least when he's not Likud-shipping or generating ridiculous examples to try to defend ultra-low capital gains rates. In fact, I bet you many commenters actually read these or other more principled conservatives, to see other approaches and hone their own argumentation.
- chaitless
March 5, 2012 at 9:21pm
Like Hitchens said, if they had given Falwell an enema they could have buried him in a matchbox.
- pgombar
March 5, 2012 at 9:29pm
Note: as long as you don't bold or italicize the text where the view full comment message appears, you may bold or italicize with impunity. EXAMPLE: ... Just how [b]pathetic[/b] are Romney's opponents? (Use <>, of course.) And if, after viewing in preview, it looks like this: ... Just how path ... view full comment Then change it to something like: ... Honestly ask ... view full comment And it will render as: ... Honestly ask yourself: Just how pathetic are Romney's opponents?
- chaitless
March 5, 2012 at 9:32pm
chaitless that's brilliant! I won't try it because I'll screw up the whole board:) Anyway, the Rapture folks in particular scare me to death. This negativity is likely to create a disaster.
- Sophia
March 5, 2012 at 10:36pm
Tgossard and Chaitless: The problems with bold and italic on the TNR discussion boards represents a lack of spiritual and religious purity. Every appearance of contaminated formatting is evidence that Satan is at work. The only solution is to ensure that only white Anglo-Saxon Protestants who are TRUE Christians post comments from now on at TNR. As I am a Jewish ethical nihilist, I cannot define for you what a TRUE Christian is, but the following web site (apparently with a direct line to God) explains it clearly and verbosely: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/definition.html. As an empiricist, I will add that I think Chaitless is correct.
- skahn
March 5, 2012 at 11:11pm
Or to put it more another way, make sure you don't have any coding, bold, italic, or anything, active at the point where the preview text breaks off . . . .
- ironyroad
March 6, 2012 at 12:00pm
You guys don't know anything about Jerry Falwell.
- trinity225
March 10, 2012 at 9:17pm
What this article completely ignores is that in 1977, AIPAC and the AZOs begun funding and coordinating with the Falwell movement in exchange for the Christian backing for the Zionist supremacist ideology. The Christian Evangelicals were convinced to back the Likud agenda with the promise that once greater Israel is established, JC will come back down and convert or kill all the Jews. What a sound basis of relationship....LOL.
- MSA70
March 15, 2012 at 8:50am