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Go Home Barack Obama, You Remind Me of Herbert Hoover

POLITICS JANUARY 5, 2010

Barack Obama, You Remind Me of Herbert Hoover

Barack Obama has been compared to almost every American President of the last hundred years--favorably to Franklin Delano Roosevelt, John Kennedy, and Ronald Reagan; and unfavorably to Jimmy Carter and George H.W. Bush. I want to put another name in the hat: Herbert Hoover.

It might seem ludicrous, or unfair, to compare Obama to one of the most vilified presidents of the last century, but that’s because Hoover’s reputation is largely, or at least somewhat, undeserved--the product of Democratic attacks and Hoover’s own strident responses to these attacks.

To his contemporaries, Hoover had been the American most suited to be president. He had performed brilliantly as head of the American Relief Administration after World War I. In 1920, The New Republic and Franklin Delano Roosevelt urged him to run for president as a Democrat. Hoover chose not to run. Instead, he became perhaps the greatest of all commerce secretaries. He was responsible, among other things, for persuading industry to reduce overall costs by standardizing industrial parts and tools. Because of Hoover’s innovations, an auto mechanic could repair any American car.

Hoover was also not a conservative Republican like Calvin Coolidge, but a progressive who believed that capital and labor could work together with the encouragement of a beneficent government. In 1928, Hoover won the presidency in a landslide, and might have enjoyed success if the Great Depression had not intervened. Still, Hoover responded to the greatest economic crisis in the nation’s history. He funded what was then the largest peacetime public works expenditure. He signed a labor bill, the Norris-LaGuardia Act, that was the precursor of the Wagner Act. And he established the Reconstruction Finance Corporation to lend money to ailing banks. “The Hoover administration,” biographer Joan Hoff Wilson wrote, “became the first in American history to use the power of the federal government to intervene directly in the economy in time of peace.”

Unlike other Republican conservatives, Hoover didn’t regard unemployment as a passing irregularity that time and patience would remove. In 1921, in the wake of an earlier sharp downturn, Hoover had convened a President’s Conference on Unemployment, which recommended public works as a response to unemployment. When he became president, he renamed it the President’s Committee on Recent Economic Changes. Its path breaking report, published at the end of his presidency, recognized the new problem of “technological unemployment.” Unlike his predecessor, Hoover also tried to do something about the international monetary system that was breaking down under the weight of unpaid loans and reparations from World War I.

But Hoover failed, finally, because he shared the same assumptions about deficit spending and government intervention as most other politicians and economists of his day. He was willing for government to do more to combat the business cycle, but he feared that enlarging the state would lead to Soviet-style socialism, and he thought that in the end the economy would right itself the way it had before. Hoover had the potential to be a very good president, but he was overwhelmed by the unprecedented challenges that he faced.

Obama, of course, is not making the same mistakes as Hoover or facing exactly the same situation. But Hoover’s example shows that a person who is highly qualified to be president and who boasts significant accomplishments in office can still fail because of the enormity of the challenges he faces. Obama could enjoy great success in getting legislation through Congress, including national health care insurance; he could take larger steps than any of his predecessors, including Franklin Roosevelt, to pull the United States out of a slump; but he could still fail and bring his party down with him.

I’ll describe Obama’s formidable challenges in foreign policy in a subsequent column. I want to concentrate here on the domestic and international economy. There are two features of the current downturn that make it different and more dangerous than previous post-World War II recessions. First, it combines a financial crash--and its effects on housing--with the deterioration of that part of private industry that produces tradable goods and services, from cars and machine tools to software and pharmaceuticals. Call this part of industry the productive core of the economy.

Most economic commentators have focused on the “financial crisis” and ignored or downplayed the crisis in the productive core. In the broadest terms, this crisis goes back to the 1970s when the U.S. began to lose market share--and in some cases entire industries like consumer electronics--to European and Asian competitors. It abated somewhat in the 1990s with the emergence of new computer/telecommunications/internet industries, but it became acute again in the early 2000s with the dotcom-telecom bust, which underlay the recession of 2001-2. There was a brief uptick in private non-residential investment in 2005-6, but according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, it began to decline in 2007 and has continued to do so. In the third quarter of this year, at the same time that economists were trumpeting the recession’s end, investment in non-residential structures fell 19.8 percent and in industrial equipment 4.8 percent from the previous quarter.

The proximate cause of this slowdown is that entrepreneurs do not see plentiful outlets for new and expanded investment. The deeper cause is competition from abroad--sometimes fair, sometimes unfair, and sometimes including goods from American overseas firms--and global overcapacity in industries like steel, automobiles, and telecommunications. If the financial crisis of 2008 had deepened and led to a worldwide run on major financial institutions and governments, it would have destroyed any chance of reviving the productive core of the economy. But preventing the worst from occurring--as the Bush and Obama administrations did or as the Roosevelt administration did in 1933--hasn’t by itself revived the productive core. Just as the entrepreneurs are reluctant to invest, the bankers are reluctant to loan.

The second ominous feature of this downturn--one that also echoes the early 1930s--is the accompanying strains in the international monetary system. To a great extent, these strains are centered on the American trade deficit, and on the relationship between the United States and the export-driven countries in Asia that are running surpluses. The relationship has worked something like this:

As the U.S. lost ground in the ’70s and ’80s to competitors in core industries, its trade deficit began to grow. According to economic theory, persistent trade deficits should force a country to devalue its currency and to stem imports and hold down what would have to be rising interest rates by slashing its budget. Austerity is the usual cure for trade deficits. But the United States has been able to avoid that fate largely because Asian countries--Japan and China, in particular--have been willing to reinvest the surplus dollars they earn in buying American stocks, bonds, and Treasury bills. They do the United States this kind of favor because it keeps the value of their currency low and allows them to continue running trade surpluses. The U.S., for its part, has been able to run large trade and budget deficits without paying an immediate penalty in cost of living, but it has suffered, in the process, the erosion of its productive core.

This system began to break down in the last decade, as the dollars, which found their way back to the United States, were not invested in the productive core, but in speculation. As Fed chief Ben Bernanke reiterated last week at the American Economics Association meeting, these dollars helped to fuel the housing bubble and the market in derivatives. When the financial bust came in 2008, it revealed an economy in arrears. Policymakers now argue that financial panics of this kind could be prevented by rigorous reform measures. Perhaps so, but the problem that created the crash, and contributed to the erosion of American industry, lay not so much in domestic finance as in the unbalanced trade and currency relations between the United States and Asia. If nothing is done to mend those relations, the recovery itself is likely to be weak--like the pseudo-recovery after the 2001-2 recession--and financial panics will recur.

In Obama’s first months in office, the president and his chief economic advisors, White House aide Larry Summers and Secretary of the Treasury Tim Geithner, may have underestimated the economic crisis they faced. Obama repeatedly referred to it as a “financial crisis,” suggesting that if the government were able to prevent the banks from going under, they would begin loaning again and the economy would recover. Treasury’s worst case estimates of unemployment in 2009fell below the double-digit rates of the last quarter.

But Obama and his advisors did grasp--if tentatively at first--the novelty of the challenge that the American economy faces. The stimulus package that Congress passed last February exceeded any previous attempts to counter a downturn. It included funds for improving education and subsidizing the development of green and biotechnology industries--two areas where the U.S. could find new outlets for private investment and growth. The Obama administration was also quick to bail out the American automobile industry. And Geithner criticized China for “manipulating its currency”in his January confirmation hearing.

The question with Obama--as it was with Hoover--is whether his efforts, which are in the right direction, will prove sufficient. The stimulus has promoted growth, but largelyin non-tradable private and government services. It may have continued the trend toward an economy divided between Wal-Mart at one extreme and Goldman Sachs at the other. Promoting green growth--from windmills to electric cars--is a good idea, but Asia and Western Europeare already ahead of the United States in these industries and are putting more money into them than the United States is. The sheer size of the stimulus may not be large enough to keep unemployment below double-digits next year. And Obama’s and Geithner’s tentative jawboning of China seems to have had little effect. Indeed, when China has responded harshly to American criticisms of its currency and trade manipulation, the U.S. has quickly backed off. Forced to content himself with half-measures, Obama, like Hoover, could fail to meet the challenges of the economic downturn.

Hoover’s principal failing was ideological. He wasn’t willing to do what was necessary because he feared the growth of an all-powerful American state and because he thought budget deficits would end up retarding rather than spurring economic growth. Obama and his advisors are not so much victims of their own ideology, but of politics, geopolitics, and other people’s ideology. If Obama wanted to undertake a dramatic government-led reinvigoration of the core economy--the industrial equivalent of war--he would be blocked by Republicans and probably by some Democrats as well. The opposition would certainly involve blind partisanship on the part of some Republicans. And it would be facilitated by the Senate’s archaic rules. But the basic problem isn’t partisanship or process; it’s ideology.

In his theory of history, Arnold Toynbee introduced an idea he called the “idolization of ephemeral  institutions.” Countries that face economic or military decline have tended to look for solutions to those ideas and institutions that they associated with their past glory. The British in the 1920s looked to the gold standard as the solution to their economic slump. The Germans and Italians hearkened back to their authoritarian past. In the U.S., the specter of decline has revived arcane notions of economic and political individualism and pre-Keynesian economic theories. As Obama’s half-measures of spending and stimulation have failed to stem the rise in unemployment, many Americans have concluded that the fault lies with government intervention itself.

Internationally, too, Obama is finding it difficult to assert his economic priorities. That’s partly because of the administration’s preoccupation with the Middle East and South Asia. During his visit to China, Obama probably downplayed American concern over China’s currency manipulation in order to win Beijing’s support for curbing Iran’s nuclear ambitions. But the erosion of America’s productive core and the strains upon the dollar-denominated world economy have also reduced America’s leverage. It has to tread lightly for fear of provoking a run on its currency.

If Obama does fail to stem the downturn--if unemployment hovers in the high single digits during his presidency--he and the Democrats are likely to lose power. The public’s approval of a president and his party closely track the state of the economy. In this case, the story of Obama’s presidency could have a very unhappy ending--not just for Obama and the Democrats, but for the United States.

When Hoover failed to reverse America’s slowdown and was booted out of office in 1932, he was replaced by Franklin Roosevelt, who, unlike Hoover, was not hamstrung by a rigid anti-government ideology and anti-deficit economics. If Obama and the Democrats lose power to the Republicans in 2010 and then 2012, they will be replaced by a party that is mired in the idolization of past institutions and is even less equipped than the Democrats to deal with the challenges of the twenty-first century. Hoover’s defeat led eventually to America’s revival. Obama’s defeat could speed the country’s decline.

UPDATE: Lo and behold, I was not the first person to compare Barack Obama to Herbert Hoover. A reader kindly sent me an article Harper’s Magazine ran last July by Kevin Baker, “Barack Hoover Obama: The Best and the Brightest Blow It Again,” that also draws a comparison between the two men.

John B. Judis is a senior editor at The New Republic and a visiting scholar the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

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30 comments

There are a lot of effective and uncomfortable arguments here, but it still seems very much like a retread of Kevin Baker's piece "Barack Hoover Obama" in the July Harper's. At some point the comparison becomes a bit tired and predictable.

- ironyroad

January 5, 2010 at 12:29am

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Obama, a prisoner of his own (and that of his advisors') ideology? I suppose so, but isn't it ironic that his critics claim he is a socialist. I must take exception to Judis' alarm that, as a result of Obama being hamstrung by ideology, Republicans will return to power and hasten the nation's decline. We all know that Republicans, being masters at politics, often do the opposite of what they say, so balanced budgets become deficits as far as the eye can see, and praises of the private sector become expensive new government entitlements. So Judis may well be right that Obama's ideology will lead to Republican ascent, but don't be surprised if the Republicans, once in power, take the nation in a direction that saves us from the economic apocalypse feared by Judis and Krugman. Stranger things have happended.

- raylward

January 5, 2010 at 7:56am

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raylward -- I think Judis is not saying that Obama is being hamstrung by his own ideology, but by the professed anti-statist ideology of his opponents.

- dhurtado

January 5, 2010 at 9:55am

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Dhurt: I think you're right, which makes Judis' arguments in the penultimate paragraph that much more ridiculous. Hoover failed not only because he did not, in the end, employ the vast resrouces of the US government to help the common man (and woman); his failure was one of imagination: in understanding the potential of government, in connecting with the average voter, in signalling to the American public that he understood and cared. Republicans, for all their talk of Joe the Plumber and for all their supposted support for that common woman, Palin, essentially don't give a rat's ass for the average Joe's economic and moral (in the global sense of that word) well-being. Nothing they have done in the past year, and nothing they are likely to do in the next three, no one they have put forward, and no one waiting in the wings, suggests in any way whatever that they understand or that they care. Historical comparisons are useful, in some measure, but they are also constraining and unreal, and so I agree with Irony that the constant harping on Hoover is a beginning to get tiresome. The America of 2009 was not the America of 1929; the nature of the financial and economic crisis is not the same. And Obama, as Judis puzzlingly reconfirms, is not Hoover; he is not constrained in his OWN head by a tired ideology; he is the best policy salesman the country has; his opponents are a bunch of ninnies and crybabies who have managed to bring Obama down to his election-day support and have made no headway into the imagination of the American people. Give us some fresh ideas please.

- icarusr

January 5, 2010 at 11:20am

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The fine commentators above have already addressed Judis's flawed comparison of Hoover with Obama. I would simply like to add that Judis is exaggerating the extent and effectiveness of Hoover's own response to the Great Depression in pursuit of his point about how Obama's policies may not be sufficient to counteract today's economic problems. Many of Hoover's earlier economic responses to the Depression were straight out of his corporatist ideology in which labor and industry were urged to sit down at the same table and make the necessary concessions to get the economy running again -- things like the National Credit Corporation and the Davis-Bacon Act. Most economists and historians agree that these were dismal failures in reducing unemployment and getting the economy growing again. Later in his term (and thanks to the urging of a newly empowered Democractic congressional delegation), Hoover implemented policies like the Reconstruction Finance Administration and the Emergency Relief and Construction Act that purported to take more direct action to stimulate the economy. However, these programs were heavily bureaucratized and did little to actually disburse money into the economy before the end of Hoover's term in office. They became more effective under Roosevelt who was actually willing to implement spending-heavy programs because he was not constrained by Hoover's ideology. The point with Hoover is that, while the eventually talked the talk of spending to spur economic recovery, he barely walked the walk.

- wildboy

January 5, 2010 at 11:59am

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Actually, 2009 is much like 1929: concentration of wealth, un(der)regulated financial markets, budensome debt, unstable international markets. And the list could go on and on. As for the analogy with Hoover, Judis isn't clear. On the one hand, he says Obama isn't the victim of ideology but of politics; but on the other hand, he derisively refers to "Obama's half-measures of spending and stimulation". Isn't Judis' criticism of Hoover essentially the same: Hoover was "a progressive who believed that capital and labor could work together with the encouragement of a beneficent government", but "in the end the economy would right itself the way it had before". As with Hoover, Obama is willing to take some corrective action, but too little and maybe too late (to avert an election defeat).

- raylward

January 5, 2010 at 12:39pm

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Interesting article Mr. Judis. And excellent post raylward. Go Iceland! The end of the tyranny is beginning there. Today!

- luispc

January 5, 2010 at 1:38pm

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Obama reminds me of Horst Buchholz in "The Magnificent Seven"--the new kid in town, dreamboat looks, etc. No, wait: he reminds me of Tony Kubek of the 1960 Yankees--hard-luck victim of a bad hop! Um... no, that's not it... I got it! Celebrity chef Martin Yan! Yes! No? Are you sure? Okay, how about Chief Bromden from "Cuckoo's Nest"? No? Kristine Lilly, most capped player on the U.S. women's national soccer team? Abner Hammond, Georgia's Secretary of State from 1811 to 1823? Joyce Dewitt, "Three's Company"'s ever-perky brunette? Soranus of Ephesus, who used lithium to treat mania in the Second Century C.E.? Okay, so maybe I've missed the mark. But it's a big wall. I keep throwing stuff at it, something's bound to stick.

- williamyard

January 5, 2010 at 1:45pm

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Luis, are you referring to this in regard to Iceland? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/06/business/global/06icebank.html?ref=business If so, pending national bankruptcy is not something that people usually cheer about unless they are disciples of Lenin's political tactics.

- wildboy

January 5, 2010 at 1:49pm

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So, wildboy, you suggest the people from Iceland pay interests to their bones (and renounce their national health service) because those are the rules made to protect bankers who were bailed out themselves? I don't know if that's Lenine's tactics. But it sounds strangely unfair to me. You know, a modest sense of justice. "Common sense" in Paine's sense of the expression... As for me, as a modest consumer, I'm buiyng everything that comes from Iceland as long as they stick to their resolution. And guess where my next vacation will be?

- luispc

January 5, 2010 at 1:57pm

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John B. this confirms my suspicions, you are an idiot. Largely credited with causing the Great Depression with his introduction of Smoot Hawley, higher taxes and runaway regulation, You are right in one regard; Hoover is probably the best example of Obama's policies. This certainly doesn't argue in Obama's favor. Check it out... http://unfundedliabilitiesandclasswar.blogspot.com/

- ptuttle

January 5, 2010 at 2:13pm

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Pop history exaggerates Hoover's ineptitude and FDR's triumphs, but there remain key differences between them, and those are the same key differences between Hoover and Obama. Indeed, Obama reminds me far more of FDR than Hoover, and Judis's very criticisms -- Obama, hamstrung politically, can't do all he might want -- apply to FDR perfectly, and far better than they do to Hoover, who, as Judis acknowledges, was hamstrung ideologically. Obama, like FDR, is essentially a liberal who sees a government role and duty to ensure access to a minimally decent life for its citizenry, and he seeks out reasonable ways to do that, including selective intervention in the economy. Hence, health care reform. Obama sees it as a right, and as a moral duty of government. In fact, I'm sure Obama would be inclined to agree in spirit with FDR's speech proposing a "second bill of rights" that would have recognized so-called "positive" rights regarding health, shelter, employment, education, and so on. Hoover, though not a total laissez-faire type, did not share such dispositions. Meanwhile, we too easily forget that, like Obama, FDR was forced to enact half-measures too, that, facing political pressure on the deficit, he backed away on the scope and size of New Deal efforts, to which many attribute the "recession-within-the-Depression," and that "Dr. Win the War," rather than "Dr. New Deal," turned out to be the real economic godsend. Nonetheless, FDR did a lot of major things. He restored confidence, he prevented the worst (thus saving capitalism), he instituted financial regulation and consumer protection, and he began social security -- capital s's and small s's -- the specific program and the concept too. As Judis notes, the stimulus was a big deal, though not as big as he, Krugman, or Obama, probably would have wanted and tilted more toward tax cuts than they would have wanted. Health care reform will be an even bigger deal. History shows that small-s social security measures become entrenched and beloved, and that they are often expaneded and seldom pulled back. But, with today's political and ideological alignments, they are nearly impossible to pass. The fact that it is going to pass now is a small miracle, very FDR-ish, and not Hoover-ish at all. Judis may see health care reform as half a loaf. If it is, it's still a huge hunk of bread, and don't forget that Social Security was humble at its inception. So, yes, other than the fact that Obama is a liberal and Hoover was a conservative, that Obama will have enacted major social legislation the likes of which Hoover never would have dreamed of, and that Obama will have sponsored large-scale Keynesian intervention into the economy at the beginning of his presidency rather than small-scale, grudging Keynesian intervention at the end, they're exactly alike.

- jhildner1

January 5, 2010 at 2:15pm

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Luis, surely you remember those hoary Leninisms, "The worse, the better" and "Heighten the contradictions of capitalism" -- the notion that economic and political conditions need to get worse so that a revolution can be achieved and a bright new sun burst forth? It seems to me that cheering on the self-defeating behavior of the Icelandic citizenry and its elected leaders in the hope that it produces some kind of better outcome is similarly flawed. Though I will happily grant you that you are not any sort of Leninist in the political sense. I have no financial dog in the fight between Iceland, the UK and the Netherlands over the Icesave bailout and I certainly appreciate the reluctance of Iceland's citizens to cut back on the welfare state that is the fruit of their hard-won labor. Iceland, like Norway, was a rather poor country just 60 years ago and its progress since that time is quite impressive. But the fact remains that, when the financially reckless overseas tactics of Iceland's banking sector caught up with it in late 2008, the democratically elected governments of Britain and the Netherlands had to use their own taxpayer money to save the deposits of their own citizens who had money in Icelandic institutions. For this, it is entirely appropriate for Iceland and its own citizens to take a haircut and compensate the British and Dutch citizens whose tax dollars were used to effectively bail out Iceland's banks. If Iceland's citizenry refuses to face this and rejects countries that are now their creditors, then they should be prepared to face national insolvency and much worse financial conditions than they are currently facing. Not something to celebrate in my view.

- wildboy

January 5, 2010 at 2:30pm

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Wildboy, skiping the labels ("Leninist", and so on), your image of the world is quite candid. In your version, UK and Netherlands "citizens" had money in Iceland and were expecting to be paid back. In my version (which I think is more realistic) speculators had money in Iceland and were pretending to get their interests (not just their capital, by far!) out of extorsion... ...while actual people is experiencing hell. Talking about the worse the better... And you can be only joking when you mention a "haircut". Just the yearly interests (INTERESTS, again, not invested capital) demanded by UK and Dutch banks times a huge part of Iceland's health and education budget... Talking, yet again, about the worse the better...

- luispc

January 5, 2010 at 3:27pm

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"...“The Hoover administration,” biographer Joan Hoff Wilson wrote, “became the first in American history to use the power of the federal government to intervene directly in the economy in time of peace...." Huh? The first counterexample that came to mind was Theodore Roosevelt and trust busting.

- malahat

January 5, 2010 at 3:40pm

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"In your version, UK and Netherlands "citizens" had money in Iceland and were expecting to be paid back. In my version (which I think is more realistic) speculators had money in Iceland and were pretending to get their interests (not just their capital, by far!) out of extorsion..." Luis, assertion is not a form of proof, and asserting your version is more realistic is setting yourself up. As Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan (one of my heroes) once observed, "You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts".

- malahat

January 5, 2010 at 3:47pm

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So, bl462 what is wrong about my facts?

- luispc

January 5, 2010 at 3:49pm

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With respect, I suggest you do some basic reading on capitalism, money, banking and credit.

- malahat

January 5, 2010 at 3:51pm

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Sorry, Luis, but I'm not buying it. There were over 400,000 British and Dutch investors in Icesave and similar accounts. Many of these were small investors and entities like municipal police and fire department operating funds that were attracted by higher interest rates paid on their deposits through Icesave - if they were "speculators", they were no more in the category of speculators than most people in the first world who were looking for higher-yield investments in the past decade. Their governments felt they had to take steps to save their principal and at least some of their interest from default, in the same way that the US government has taken steps to prop up large failing banking institutions, auto and insurance companies and mortgage borrowers -- because letting them all fail precipitously would unleash a cascade of defaults throughout the broader economy and make it next to impossible to stop the avalanche until it hit such a bottom that no mere bailout would be sufficient (like in 1929-32). As for Iceland, it is a first-world economy with a (supposedly) regulated banking sector and (supposed) investor and depositor protections. If it wants to make money by playing in wider financial markets, the country and its citizens need to bear some of that risk. Read Simon Johnson about this crisis -- he is as much of a critic of the bailout mentality and IMF practices as anyone, and he has supported the effort to get Iceland to pay back the British and Dutch governments.

- wildboy

January 5, 2010 at 3:56pm

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"With respect, I suggest you do some basic reading on capitalism, money, banking and credit." OK, bl462. All that "science" (as respectful as the marxist-leninist "science" taught at the Moscow institutes of "high studies" on history, classes, exploration and revolution...) will surely lead me to equate "citizenry" with "financial speculation". And all that "science", I'm sure, will even turn me into a specialist that considers to be fair compelling a people to pay interests rather than pay for education and health!

- luispc

January 5, 2010 at 3:59pm

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I respectfully repeat my suggestion. For starters, I recommend that you closely read wildboy's comments.

- malahat

January 5, 2010 at 4:02pm

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«... if they were "speculators", they were no more in the category of speculators than most people in the first world who were looking for higher-yield investments in the past decade» You may have a point. But it all turned out... as it turned out... And to compell Icelanders this way to pay interests arranged at that demential period is at least disturbing. It is like arranging a huge party at a neighbour's house and to demand compensation from him on the broken glass and the noise made... Even if Iceland is not to be "bailed out" purely and simply, a fair solution that does not compel them to pay these sorts of interests (arranged at a moment some, even if 400 000, expected absurdly unreasonable returns on their capital) should be found. Until that solution is found, they're right to say no.

- luispc

January 5, 2010 at 4:09pm

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Thanks for the advise bl462. I'll get back to you, after my "education" (or should I say "reeducation"...) is completed!

- luispc

January 5, 2010 at 4:10pm

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Luis reminds me of that student of mine who said, "I took your course so that I could argue against you. But I actually learned something." Kind of. At least the first part. I like the fact that UK and Dutck "citizens" are put in scare quotes. In fact, Luis appears to like scare quotes a lot - the mark of a weak mind and a strained education, in my humble opinion - not that I'm judging, as some of my best friends have weak minds and weaker bladders. And then there the repeated use of "capital" and "interest" as if one were talking about electric shocks in Siberian gulags .... "Capital", invested in a bank or with an investment firm, is nothing but savings - savings of people like me who work and pay taxes and put away a little each paycheque to be able to afford a dwelling of their own. In the old days, I would be tied to the bank around the corner and captive to its shenanigans. Now, we have more choice. Those of us who bother to save and who have a sense of the market and the importance of circulating money (instead of putting it in the freezer), will naturally invest, looking for the least risk for the highest return. There is nothing either immoral or wrong about it. Some will risk more, some less; we collectively agree that certain risks should be collectively insured (FDIC), others should be collectively regulated (the SEC, even if weakly) and still others (derivatives), up to now, less so. True, some people, some firms, some cities, some funds made bad choices. They are no better, but no worse, than the people and communities that enabled the risk-taking in the first place. Iceland, if you have bothered to look into what is going on there at all, simply turned its eyes away from supervising its banks. The Icelanders were giddy with the money pouring in and simply decided not to bother to look at how three banks managed to have assets three times the size of Iceland's GDP. I was in Iceland when they were doing well, and let me tell you, paying $200 for a taxi ride from the airport to the hotel was not fun; nor was the $50 pizza or the $12 coke. They loved it and loved milking me, though. They made wrong choices. No one suggests putting them in a pillory or indentured servitude; but to applaud them appears, to these eyes, somewhat exaggerated.

- icarusr

January 5, 2010 at 5:53pm

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Your humble opinion should have noticed that the quotes were used precisely because at stake were substantives ("citizens" or "speculators") that translated one's views on the subject. What do you teach if you missed that? On the rest of your argument it is simply bullshit. Savings may deserve restitution. But the expected returns of 20% do not, in a scenario such as this. And on making Icelanders pay for their lousy Banks supervision, I'm glad Americans are not being made to pay remotely on the same proportion.

- luispc

January 6, 2010 at 3:16am

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Huh - which part of the rest of my argument is "bullshit"? The part about my savings? About the cost of Icelandic cab rides? About the exposure of Icelandic banks? About people making bad choices? About people looking around for best returns on their money? I mean, if you are going to insult, be creative in your insults; and if you are going to respond, respond to the points raised. Merely stating that a set of arguments is bullshit is little better than my six year-old cousin's "nya nya nya" replies. I don't think anyone in their right mind is looking for a 20% return (on what? over how long a period? invested in what form? how calculated?). "I'm glad Americans are not being made to pay remotely on the same proportion." Well, not to the same proportion, but US financial institutions did not collect $38 trillion in overseas assets and then go bankrupt. The US taxpayer is on the hook, so far this year, for about $1.4 trillion dollars in one sort or another; plus, nearly $10 and perhaps up to $30 trillion in US asset values have been wiped out over the past two years. So, in some way, Americans are "paying". Instead of snarky comments and idiotic insults, and getting into pseudo-intellectual discussions about "substantives ... that translate[] one's view on the subject", just stick to the substance and address the points raised. Right now, you're just sounding like George Walton.

- icarusr

January 6, 2010 at 2:15pm

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«Right now, you're just sounding like George Walton.» This is a repetitive line. Typical from a weak mind that never insults anyone. BTW, whatever happened to George Walton? OK, get the Icelandic money till the last dime and convince yourself that the US taxpayer is on the hook on the same proportion. If it makes you happy.

- luispc

January 6, 2010 at 3:57pm

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And if Iceland doesn't play ball they can join the Axis of Evil!

- luispc

January 6, 2010 at 4:12pm

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I assumed that George Walton was off hiking the Appalachian Trail.

- wildboy

January 6, 2010 at 5:57pm

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George left the scene so suddenly and completely that one wonders if something bad happened to him. A bit of circumspection is probably in order.

- dhurtado

January 6, 2010 at 6:55pm

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