TEL AVIV JOURNAL OCTOBER 29, 2011
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The New York Times ran with two demographic surveys one day after the other. The first, which it headlined “Snapshot shows U.S. public more disillusioned than ever,” demonstrated that the American people are fundamentally miserable with their condition. They expressed egalitarian instincts at least to the extent that they want the distribution of wealth to be more even. But this feeling did not manifest itself in any particular warm feeling for the Democrats, although there is wide recognition that Republican politics and policy “favor the rich.” Another irony is that a majority of the public supports a wide range of the president’s concrete economic proposals. Yet this brings no balm to him, either manifest statistically in the survey or, as you and I well know, in the population’s perception of him as a loser (on virtually every issue except Iraq). So should the bad news for Obama give glee to the Republicans? Absolutely not. Their most popular candidate in the GOP presidential sweepstakes is Herman Cain, despite his minstrel affect about which you can read in John McWhorter’s quite dazzling piece earlier this week. This is very bad news for every other Republican contender, especially Mitt Romney who is the establishment’s point man but alienated from the deep and ugly passions among the populists in the party—who, I am afraid, are the party.
The second report, conducted by the Congressional Budget Office and discussed in the Times yesterday, is not a surprise. In fact, it is common knowledge that there has been a steep rise in the percentage of the national wealth held by an ever smaller cohort of the populace over the last three decades:
The top 1 percent of earners more than doubled their share of the nation’s income over the last three decades, the Congressional Budget Office said Tuesday, in a new report likely to figure prominently in the escalating political fight over how to revive the economy, create jobs and lower the federal debt.
In addition, the report said, government policy has become less redistributive since the late 1970s, doing less to reduce the concentration of income.
“The equalizing effect of federal taxes was smaller” in 2007 than in 1979, as “the composition of federal revenues shifted away from progressive income taxes to less-progressive payroll taxes,” the budget office said.
No surprise, you may say. After all, Ronald Reagan and not one but two men named George Bush sat in the Oval Office during this period. Still, let’s face the facts. Bill Clinton was no enemy of the acquisition of wealth. And certainly no enemy of those who do the acquiring. Also, don’t forget his chancellor of the exchequer, brilliant dazzling smooth Robert Rubin who, as Frank Rich reminds us in his hyperbolically happy column last Sunday, was the architect of it all.
There was little public despair about wealth and poverty under W, although the poor certainly had no illusions that they were rich or even comfortable. Ironically, despair emerged under the White House stewardship of the former Chicago community organizer Barack Obama, acolyte of Saul Alinsky. It was Obama, after all, who told us that “yes, we can.” Unfortunately, even he couldn’t. And please don’t blame everything on the damn Republicans. Obama is responsible for something.
So we now have “Occupy Wall Street” and “Occupy Oakland” and many of the cities and towns in between. Also abroad. The “occupation” of Oakland, where Jerry Brown used to be mayor, was interrupted by tear gas and five dozen arrests. My bet is that the cops were provoked, as usual. Similar happenings occurred elsewhere. And, believe it or not, there was an “Occupy Yom Kippur” epiphenomenon on Wall Street and a few other locales, a mild version of the revolution and actually with contrition as its theme rather than revenge.
I know that several of my admired friends have signed on to the occupation. And, frankly, when Michael Walzer and Paul Berman endorse something I take notice and ponder. The fact is that I, too, share in the dismay—actually utter dismay—at the sharpening of the distance between privileged and over-privileged (yes, there must be a category for these) people and ordinary folk, even those whose contribution to society is great and reward very sparse. Woefully sparse. When I was in elementary school—P.S. 28 in the Bronx more than six decades ago—the model expenditure of an ordinary family for rent was 25 percent of income. Now, in all but the most depressed cities in the country, the paradigm is about 50 percent or more. So let’s not dismiss the grievance feeding and fueling the quite (as of now, at least) mild revolt. This is America today.
On the other hand, no real program emanates from the nationwide protests. This is not exactly a criticism. After all, when a crowd gathers (or, rather, multiple crowds gather) without hierarchy and virtually without philosophy, as Elias Canetti has taught us, the drift will always be to the abstract, to the more incendiary, to the emotionally gratifying. You cannot reach for power with such as your base. Which is why memories from the “demos” of the sixties and early seventies provoke only a moment’s nostalgia and deep regret otherwise, even disgust. My heart does not swell or break when I hear “Where Have All the Flowers Gone?” Since, moreover, I do not believe jobs will emerge from these demonstrationsor from the president’s rhetoric, I am left realistically pessimistic. Pessimism is our destiny.
As expected, there is a list of signatories to the “Occupy Wall Street” manifesto. This list has, as some idiot television talk-show host put it, many Type A celebrities on it. Susan Sarandon, for one. Naomi Wolf, who tried to dress Al Gore in earth-tones, for another. Jonathan Demme. And, of course, Gloria Steinem, all but forgotten. Alice Walker, also signer of anything anti-Jewish. Cornel West. 350 Columbia and Barnard faculty, including the Islamist faction plus the Columbia president Lee Bollinger who made the faction possible. (He is also a member of the New York Federal Reserve where, if he wanted, he could do something about reforming or even revolutionizing Wall Street. By the way, he earns $1.4 million per annum, which with his other annual lucre certainly puts him in the top 1 percent of earners.) Signer Michael Moore got into a pissing match with an interviewer, arguing that he may be in the top .1 percent but not in the top .01 percent, a real difference which, ironically, his stupid films have helped to obliterate.
In contrast to the politically minoritarian cast of the “big name” signatories, a poll done by the highly reliable Pew Research outfit demonstrates that 39 percent of the country is in favor of the goals of “Occupy Wall Street” and only a small minority support the aims of the Tea Party. With all the money and publicity behind the tax rebellion you’d have thought that these people would have done much better in public opinion. And given the amorphous character of the ideas behind the Wall Street occupying army you’d have thought—or I thought—it would have done much less well in the vox populi. Anyway, it is as it is. Except, as a poll of 100 occupiers, interviewed early on by Tracey Samuelson in New York magazine, shows, these folk don’t know squat about the financial system. Fully 75 out of the 100 identified themselves politically either with Ralph Nader or Noam Chomsky. Paul Krugman attracted 12 adorers. Maybe this cohort is the revolutionary vanguard. Hey, but what about Barack Obama who is, after all, the president? Three responders identify with him.
As you may have gathered, I am back in Tel Aviv where on July 14 (the birthday of the French Revolution) at Sderot Rothschild (the boulevard commemorating Baron Edmund de Rothschild, the grandson of the founding Rothschild and known as Ha’nadiv, the benefactor, which, indeed, he was, of Jewish agriculture in and Jewish migration to Palestine) about 300,000 Israelis gathered to protest the wild variance not so much in social status but in the economic possibilities of the population. Soon thereafter, the movement radiated out from one of the most fashionable but also hip streets of the city to virtually every town and townlet in the country. This weekend there will be more such assemblies, from Kiryat Shmona in the tipy-tipy north to Eilat on the Red Sea. There’s been a slight escalation in the rhetoric. The organizers seem to be testing the crowd’s ideological limits with their new slogan, “Back to the Streets.” We will see how it fares and what it brings.
There is great paranoia among the leaders, self-styled and actual. Their theme is that Bibi Netanyahu was so desperate to destroy the movement that he is allowing 1,200 terrorists to go free in exchange for one Hamas-incarcerated Gilad Shalit. Now, the liberation of Shalit after five years without visitors (even the Red Cross didn’t visit) and without eyeglasses brought a kind of sublime satisfaction to Israel. (Why no eyeglasses? His captors were convinced that the Israeli security services could locate him through them. Nut cases, if you’ll excuse me. But okay, they could have gone into town and gotten Gilad an innocent pair of spectacles.) Ha’aretz also trafficked in such grotesque fantasies about Bibi. But that’s another matter.
The politics of this amorphous “social justice” movement is hard to track. The costs of daycare, for example, are a burden to every family from the middle class on down. So they cut across from left to right, and as in America many among the poorest—perhaps even most—are on the right. The syllogism continues: Among the richest are people on the left. Still, rich or poor is a reliable predictor of nothing. As Daniel Doron showed in these columns, the etiology of this mixed economy goes back to the early years of the state when a socialist government mixed its own trade union businesses with select private families. Many of these intrinsically corrupt structures no longer exist. The governor of the Bank of Israel, Stanley Fischer, a legendary figure in the world economy, is largely responsible for the general reforms to the economy. But he couldn’t have achieved these without Bibi’s disciplined support.
And then came a government-appointed commission which has now proposed a not unanimously backed package of reforms. Plus, from another more-or-less independent commission, a different set of prescriptions, more populist in character but, of course, also without total support from the populace. Actually, in comparison to the rancor generated around other matters, this public discussion is quite thoughtful, even civilized.
Except for one idiosyncratic feature: A certain madness has taken over in the founder’s head. A dangerous madness, if not dangerous to Israeli society then certainly dangerous to the movement which Daphni Leef improvised. Ha’aretz put this headline on Nehemia Shtrasler’s article: “Israel’s Social Protest Leader Is Now Her Own Worst Enemy.” She has begun to give ultimata to the country’s prime minister. Here is a look at a leader with an insecure mandate who seems to think that she has the power of a commissar:
Daphni Leef has become her own biggest enemy. She has become intoxicated with power. You can criticize the prime minister and demand that he increase social spending, but you can’t humiliate him in public, address him arrogantly and treat him as if he were the lowliest of officials.
At Leef’s press conference this week before tomorrow night’s demonstration, she didn’t hesitate to present Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu with ultimatums; for example: “This is the last time I am addressing you directly.” How scary. If Leef roars, who will not tremble? She also demanded that he reverse economic policy completely so it will suit the caprices of her and her colleagues. She, after all, has the experience and knowledge and he’s merely prime minister: “We have no intention of compromising …. Your time is running out …. The keys to the country must be in our hands.”
If Leef believes the keys to the country must be in her hands, let her do us the honor of running against Netanyahu in the next elections and defeating him. We are, after all, still living in a representative democracy. At the press conference Leef spoke about the state’s obligation to provide all its citizens (for free, of course) excellent health care, a worthy education, fair housing, art and culture—and also a nice salary and respectable pension because these “are not luxuries but rather basic things.”
The fact is that there was a significant antecedent of the July 14 Rothschild Boulevard assembly, and it occurred not long before the great mobilization. It was modestly titled “the cottage cheese revolution.” It aimed first at the dairy industry led by a company named Strauss and following right behind was Tnuva, both run by women heads of the owner families. This fact allowed some columnists to take stabs at the idea that more women business executives would ease social stress. The Jerusalem Post ran an article titled “Unrest in Curdistan” and written by David Rosenberg. It cops out at the end, blaming the situation of the poor on the educational system, as if a grand revolution in the schools will do anything in the immediate future for harsh economic realities. But the piece describes the structure of the dairy industry and its role in the ordinary lives of Israelis—which is actually why the revolution started there:
The first thing is to recognize the real problem, which is that cottage cheese is a symbol of middle-class distress. As housewives were turning their noses up at the dairy shelves last week, Merrill Lynch published its annual report of the world’s millionaires. Israel counted a total of 10,153 in 2010, a remarkable 20.6% increase from the year before and more than double the worldwide percentage growth. The average salary last year rose 3.7%.
It’s not a perfect demonstration of growing income inequality in Israel, but it captures many of the issues. The economy is growing, but a small fraction of the population is enjoying most of the fruits. If you had a substantial investment portfolio, which millionaires by definition have, you did very well last year. If you had an advanced degree and worked in technology or finance, you did well, too. This is a trend taking place all over the developed world, but in Israel it is more pronounced because the economy is so reliant on hi-tech at its top end and has so many people not working at all on the bottom. After the US, Israel is the most income unequal society in the West.
Daniel Doron wrote another illuminating article, “It’s not just cottage cheese. It’s everything,” in the Post, and Calev Ben David a broader piece in Bloomberg. Thomas White gives us an amazing narrative of the revolution which has forced the food industry—the basic food industry—to respond to the boycott of its customers. Before the Jewish holiday of Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles, earlier this month the protest organization set a goal to reduce the price of food put on the table of an average family by 15 percent.
Of course, this aim was not met. But Osem, another huge company in the cartel, did reduce prices on 35 of its products substantially. This development was reported by Ora Coren in “The Marker,” the financial section of Ha’aretz. Included in the cost cuts are baby formula and other “Materna” products, ketchup, flour, crackers, chicken soup, soy sauce, corn products—and, of course, hummus and tehina. The company took its own initiative in announcing that starting in April 2012 it would not raise wages for senior executives but pay the sum saved to its employees who do not earn the company’s average wage.
None of this comes close to a real social revolution. But we’ve had enormously painful experiences with social revolutions over the last century, the poor even more than the rich.
Martin Peretz is editor-in-chief emeritus of The New Republic.
57 comments
The Occupy Wall Street Crowd are the same sort of rabble who provided the base for Communism and Nazism. Can any sane American challenge me on the following statement: Noam Chomsky is a psychopathic liar, and all 'round lunatic?
- bulbman1066
October 29, 2011 at 1:15am
bulbman1066 "The Occupy Wall Street Crowd are the same sort of rabble who provided the base for Communism and Nazism. Can any sane American challenge me on the following statement: Noam Chomsky is a psychopathic liar, and all 'round lunatic?" You got bulbs for brains, Bulbman. The comment about Chomsky is a Non sequitur. And only an ignorant moron would equate the OWS demonstrators to Nazis. You know nothing about history bulber.
- arnon
October 29, 2011 at 5:39am
Bulb, seek help man. No one playing with a full deck would look at the OWS crowd and see brownshirts. And how does a group of people exemplify the funamentals of both communicms AND naziism at the same time? You're beginning to sound like the crazypants teapartiers who hold up signs accusing Obama of being a communist with his picture adorned with a hitler moustache.
- Tristan
October 29, 2011 at 5:52am
Is it me or are Marty's posts becoming increasingly more coherent and sane?
- Tristan
October 29, 2011 at 6:10am
I could swear PS. 28, my first school, is not in the Bronx. It's on 155th in Manhattan, where I grew up. World... (or at least New Yorkers) please weigh in.
- sollyman2
October 29, 2011 at 7:15am
Say what you want about the bulb, he is irrepressible.
- basman
October 29, 2011 at 8:46am
"Say what you want about the bulb, he is irrepressible." so is herpes
- Tristan
October 29, 2011 at 9:15am
This essay isn't about OWS, or inequality, or "cottage cheese". Like all of MP's essays, it's about him. It will generate a flood of comments, most filled with more anger than MP's essay. I have never met the man, and what little I know about him I learned from the profile by Stephen Rodrick in the NYT earlier this year. I suspect MP disputes much of what's in the profile, but MP's own essays, including this one, confirm the worst (or best, depending on one's view of anger and conflict as nutrients for the creative mind). As a long-time reader of TNR, a BP (before Peretz), I cannot overlook his contributions to this magazine and my enjoyment and education as a reader. Kinsley, Sullivan, Beinart, Chait, and now Cohn, Noah, MacGillis, nobody but MP could put together such a talented group of writers, who, ironically, don't seem to share MP's insatiable need for conflict.
- rayward
October 29, 2011 at 9:15am
Yes Tristan, Marty is making much more logical sense in his writing and seems to be refraining from his uglier tendencies, such as tedious, mostly irrelevant mean-girl viciousness towards his selected Democratic enemy-of-the-month or year (never Republican). I really respected his piece on the far right in Israel, it was the best I'd seen anywhere on that particular movement, it was impressive. Although his retarded shtick on Cain/Warren (Cain somehow being a man of the people and Warren an elitist - uh yeah) still tells me he can seriously backslide in the maturity department. Maybe he's a Gemini like me, or two Marty's or bi-polar or all of the above. My only beef with this piece is that unfortunately, I don't understand the point he's trying to make, can you help me out? Itzak? You too are always so cogent and sharp, what is Marty trying to sell here? I'm game, just confused. That OWS and the protests in Israel feel similiar? I didn't see the transition. It might very well be there, perhaps I just didn't catch it.
- WandreyCer
October 29, 2011 at 9:29am
Tristan, I just caught your herpes line - you devil you! You made me spit up my coffee laughing again.
- WandreyCer
October 29, 2011 at 9:30am
Since our OWS Crowd is so enamored with income distribution I thought I would point something out to the 99%. As a middle aged white male stuck in a middle class technical profession, I have been frestrated with the wage stagnation happening in America. Roughly I am making what I was making 6 years ago. And yes I know it is foreign competition to the auto industry that has held the line on my wages. But as someone who follows this subject I would like to point out another set of statistics buried within these stagnant wages. Almost every year when the BLS or whoever releases the income statistics there have been incomes gains reported by groups within the average wage classifications. Every year for about 20 years now the wages of women and minorities has gone up. While white males has stagnated or declined slightly. The gains for women have been pretty substantial, they are about on par with most men. And this makes sense too. In 1980 it was rare that women were attending college. Now most colleges have a majority of women on campus. My last trip to Ann Arbor was a shock with the amont of foreign students. As all these new folks join the mainstream labor market the wages have stagnated, but the individual wages of people previously excluded has risen. The increase in the labor supply has held down the cost of that labor. While these 99%er's rail against corporate greed and the distribution of wealth they really don't know how fairly this wealth is distributed in America. They are cherry picking one number and using this as the basis for a movement.
- CRS9TNR
October 29, 2011 at 9:47am
"Noam Chomsky is a psychopathic liar, and all 'round lunatic?"" Noam Chomsky is NOT psychopathic or lunatic. Whatever he says and writes is done with pre-meditation and logically derived from certain principles. To say he is insane is to let him off the hook for his malevolence.
- noga1
October 29, 2011 at 10:58am
I agree with you completely noga. I thought you made a great case CRS9TNR, except for your last sentence. We all cherry pick I guess. What OWS has advocated for is old school corporate accountability, real capiltalism - not socialism like we have now, an end to bought off politician/prostitutes of both parties (good luck). You add valid and interesting layers to the wage stagnation discussion (which doesn't seem t be part of the OWS platform as far as I know) but take them away from all the rest of the discussion. That's cherry picking defined.
- WandreyCer
October 29, 2011 at 12:15pm
Sollyman2 -- quick note: I don't know specifically re PS8, but the same number could be used for schools in different boroughs...They'd be designated, e.g., PS 28 M, PS 28 Bx....
- LISAH
October 29, 2011 at 1:15pm
CRS writes: "My last trip to Ann Arbor was a shock with the amont of foreign students." Ditto with my recent experiences on college campuses. Folks love to talk about social mobility in this country, and love to note how it's better in Europe. And they are somewhat correct. But they are dead wrong when it comes to social mobility for for those that have recently arrived (1-2 generations) to our country compared to say, Sweden. In these cases, the US is the best place in the world to be as we're the most mobile society in the world for recent immigrants. One other point that fell out of the the CBO report was that capital income has been decreasing for the top 1%. This means that the top 1% aren't getting fat by collecting investments. They are getting fat by working and producing amazing things. And their skills are sharp enough that they are able to find employers to actually fight and bid over them. Now, put these two together, and you have a group of hyper-achievers that are coming to American, going to college, staying heads down and raking in big money. Maybe not all in the top 1%. It is larger than that. Recently, I was at a meeting at a very prominent semiconductor vendor in San Diego. A former employer buys a few $billion of silicon from this company each year. Of the 20 some odd people in the room, two were white. 11 were Asian, 7 were Indian. In San Diego. Native-born Americans will be shocked to learn while they are wasting time demanding more, there are those out there that are actually taking it from under their nose while they are protesting. The country always has a place for a smart worker who is willing to work 60 hours a week. They will always be well paid. Those folks are arriving on our shores in droves. They are staying, and they are making a huge impact. It's not about the bankers, the CEOs, the sports stars, etc. They are such a small slice it just doesn't matter. The top 1% are this countries hyper-achievers. Those that are working long weeks and building amazing things. Sure, there are a few fat-cat CEO scattered in there. Sure there are a few insurance company executives in there. But the products you covet, the products you crave, the products you want....be they movies, or computers or cancer treatments or cars or whatever, these were designed by the top few % in this country. We should be very, very careful not to gut that segment of our society. It it was the rest of the world wishes they had.
- seattleeng
October 29, 2011 at 1:37pm
Not a clue as to his point here. You could look up "discursive" in the dictonary and the piece could be its defintion as to the negative branch of that word's meaning.
- basman
October 29, 2011 at 2:44pm
Not a clue as to his point here. You could look up "discursive" in the dictonary and the piece could be its defintion as to the negative branch of that word's meaning.
- basman
October 29, 2011 at 2:45pm
rayward "This essay isn't about OWS, or inequality, or "cottage cheese". Like all of MP's essays, it's about him." At least it's not about you, Ward. That's something to be thankful for.
- arnon
October 29, 2011 at 2:53pm
I see bulbman -- who seems to be up early these days getting the first comment in -- as a kind of strange bird-like figure who is occasionally observed flying between the rooftops of a medieval town. Sometimes he lands on a wall or a parapet, harangues passers-by with strange guttural repetitions that sometimes make sense, but often not, and then flies off. He seems both angry and a little sad, somehow unable to show anything except a narrow, hostile range of feeling. People feel a tad afraid when they see him land, and hold the children a bit closer as they pass, but he has never harmed anyone that we know about. His harsh aggressive cawing also has a touch of loneliness about it, its sound -- or its echo -- often haunts me as I walk home through the twilight town under the walls of the old castle . . .
- ironyroad
October 29, 2011 at 3:07pm
Are you in a Poe'ish mood, ironyroad?
- noga1
October 29, 2011 at 3:59pm
Well I agree with Tristan about Marty's posts. As to a point. Well, who needs a point? This is a very interesting piece about several overlapping situations, most of which involve poor distribution of wealth, which is creating real stress in two Western societies, ours and Israel. In Israel, they voluntarily made some changes, they being partially on the government side and partially on the corporate side, in order to reduce corruption on the one hand and reduce prices and help consumers and workers on the other hand. I would LOVE to see American executives hold the line on their salaries and give the money to their workers and similarly, it would be nice the "health" industry for example to make their goods and services more affordable. Because as it is we are in real trouble here, unable to make decent money, unable to afford vital services, drugs, etc - in many cases Americans cannot afford food. I saw a table the other day comparing income of CEOs vs workers in several countries. In Japan for example the honcho makes 11 x the salary of the average worker. In the US it's something like 450 x and that's consistent with the absurd and obscene theft of our work and our money that's resulting in an oligarchy. So, re-read the article, I think you'll see several points.
- Sophia
October 29, 2011 at 5:50pm
Now, above is a comment that claims, because women are doing better, we shouldn't be looking at the 99% business. Excuse me but women have to work now. Any money we make is absolutely vital, it's extremely difficult to support anything near a middle class standard household on one income anymore unless you have one big humming income. So, CRS9TNR, you're wrong about the 99% business being misleading because the cost of living has exceeded what any one person can earn. And if you're old, sick, young, whatever, OUCH, you are looking at poverty. Not to mention that any job at all is becoming very hard to get, and, if you're in "non-vital" professions, you might never work again, ever, period. That's a terrible thing not only for individual people or families, it's ultimately deadening to the culture as a whole because art, music, pure science, research, scholarship for the sake of scholarship are not really luxuries, they are what make us civilized. As to the rather absurd point that we should all be out working 60 hours a week: good lord. Are there no salt mines? Are there no work houses? Please seattle GIVE US A BREAK. If you want to go back to the Dark Ages, or Victorian London, please, be my guest. Go already.
- Sophia
October 29, 2011 at 5:58pm
More proof above that bulbman and his ilk have never studied Bolshevism and Nazism. I agree with basman. Bulbman brings a certain joie de idiocy to the discussion. He, does, indeed, get a lot of threads here off to a bouncing start--after his head bounces off the ceiling. I agree that Marty has toned it down a bit. I think he may have digested many of the negative comments about him. Maybe he could mentor bulbman.
- magboy47.
October 29, 2011 at 6:04pm
Noga -- a touch of Poe, colored by Hoffmann, a shading of Lovecraft.
- ironyroad
October 29, 2011 at 6:06pm
...As to a point. Well, who needs a point?... Me.
- basman
October 29, 2011 at 6:15pm
A shading of love craft?
- basman
October 29, 2011 at 6:39pm
Basman, there are several. #1 being that skewed income/wealth levels put a majority of people even in wealthy states in a bind. #2 being that in Israel, corporations and government voluntarily tried to ease the situation although it seems they have a lot more to do. #3 is maybe a trickier problem because it's structural, and integral to many Western and other advanced states/regions: hi-tech industry rewards a few people very well and leaves a lot out in the cold. We need to look at that one. The enormously wealthy Apples, for example, don't employ all that many people. How do we work around this? We are developing a two-tier society, the opposite of what all the wars and revolutions and economic thinkers and lawmakers have been trying to undo for centuries now because we know it doesn't work, isn't stable and is essentially unfair.
- Sophia
October 30, 2011 at 12:17am
ironyroad, last night I went to a screening of this film: http://www.documentaryedge.org.nz/2011/wgtn/film/eichmanns-end-love-treachery-death Thought you might be interested in it. It's mostly in German.
- noga1
October 30, 2011 at 9:04am
Sophia, thanks for the analysis. I'll give it some thought. But I want to enter a complaint by way of observation: somebody, wiser and much better read than I, here once suggested to me that the essence of liberalism is generosity. I find that an illuminating insight and wonder still whether that characterization is descriptive or conceptually irreducible, necessary perhaps but not sufficient. So why not leave Bulbman alone rather than continually heaping vitriol on him? He's not uintelligent and has a consistent world view which favours freedom and hates, from his having actually experienced it, tyranny. If he's too emphatic and splenetic for some here, ignore him. But for shame comparing him to herpes and slagging in the lowest possible way. I have done a bit of this myself but not that savagely, I daresay. Where is the generosity here so deep at the core of liberalism? Just ignore him, if you can't be either kind or at least not savagely insulting.
- basman
October 30, 2011 at 2:19pm
Ha! He calls women sluts Itzak, forget it. Wrong woman. Whatever it is that he's "contributing" it isn't intelligence, I'm sorry. However, I sincerely salute your impulse, however much I disagree in this case. I don't really see liberals as generous per se, that feels like too granular of a word to apply to a political orientation. It's a word I'd apply to an individual. I think we're seekers of justice, but this would be a terrific thread somewhere - the semantics of liberalism. I have committed to not reading reading another keystroke by the man thugh, so I am taking your advice at some level. I just always regret when threads are hijacked by his stuff.
- WandreyCer
October 30, 2011 at 3:11pm
I don't think my paragraph of whimsy on bulbman is savage and vitriolic. I guess you're not saying that, but I'd like to know for sure.
- ironyroad
October 30, 2011 at 3:36pm
Irony, you have tons of equanamity and are perhaps the fairest minded guy here, fair in making arguments, willing to concede a point when you feel you should, unfailingly civil and with a twinkle-of-the-eye ironic sense of humour and other things too. That said, except for the guy who talked about herpes, which I think was needlessly cruel, I won't characterize other people's comments. And I'm not trying to preach to anyone--though it may come off that way--I'm just saying what I think. I agree with Jill that we should of course distingush, in thinking about liberalism, between people who call themselves liberals and what liberalism is as a set of ideas, a sensibility about, and disposition toward, reality, but if liberlaism andand what animates it does not have generosity as part of its essence, then I for one don't understand it. Maybe I've been reading too much Trilling lately. (I'm right now reading his essay on the Intimations ode: what a lovely piece of critical writing.) I will say Jill that I don't agree that that generosity is too granular; it may be too vast or overly simple, but I find the idea illuminatingly resonant in thinking about liberalism. And I guess too that I think individuals who think themselves liberals, I do, should try to incorporate its ethics. I'm very close to the front of the line of those who, in my view, and I speak only for myself and what I think, should remind themselves early and often, just like voting in Chicago, of its ethical foundations, kind of like asking "what would Jesus do."
- basman
October 30, 2011 at 4:27pm
...equanimity... that should be.
- basman
October 30, 2011 at 4:28pm
Phew! Noga -- looks as if it could be a compelling film or an embarrassing disaster, if it was fumbled. What did you think of it?
- ironyroad
October 30, 2011 at 5:48pm
Oh dear Itzak - I'm sorry for not being clear! Your comment on bulbman was very kind and struck a chord, so I"ve been thinking about it. My Dad was adamant that I was supposed to fight bigotry head on. He was raised by his mother and sister, so he was especially triggered by men bullying anyone, but especially women. I just do what he did, as daughters will sometimes do, and he just did was his mother did, as sons sometimes do. Pure imitation, swallowed whole. Sometimes it's too much. But that's the way I was raised . Knowing I'd had a Nazi great-grandfather, raised at times by my German grandmother (his daughter) who turned him in the OSS and went on to become a close friend and major supporter of Mel Mermelstein: (Marty knows who he is: http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/33d/projects/survivors/mermelsteinbread.htm. He basically put the holocaust denial racket out of business in the US, set the stage for making it straight up illegal in Germany) was the soup I was raised in. As my mother always said about my Dad and I, you two are always ready to put your cape on: there was no Hannah Arendting around in my family. Otherwise it could happen to anyone! It can be triggered to easily. Anyway, I hope I make sense. You've sold me on generosity and liberalism, especially when constrasted with its opposite. I imagine "generous" is about as odious a concept in conservatism as "empathy." Generous with what and to whom would make a conservative pounce. A fair question I'd day - or at least one Irony, you and I should try formulating an answer to.
- WandreyCer
October 30, 2011 at 6:02pm
It was well made but I suspect a shoe-string budget. The documentary part revealed information I was unaware of, like the existence of a series of recorded interviews with Eichmann between 1952-1957. Also the claim that many people knew that Ricrado Klement was Eichmann. And that the Israelis hesitated for two years after getting the initial information before verifying his identity and mounting the operation. Many questions remain open which for me served as proof that the film was done thoughtfully. The interviews added a dimension into Eichmann's personality which could validate Arendt's assessment of his character and simultaneously contradict it. Well worth seeing. I thought it strange that I remember nothing about it in my own memory. I was a little girl at the time of course but I do remember clearly when JFK was assassinated and how shocked and grieved my parents were. But I don't recall anything being talked about at the home about Eichmann and his end. Only when I was 12 or thereabouts my mother spoke about it and that was after I had brought up the subject. But then maybe she didn't know how to speak about it; we were surrounded by Holocaust survivors who never spoke about it, too.
- noga1
October 30, 2011 at 7:26pm
Sophia writes: "Please seattle GIVE US A BREAK. If you want to go back to the Dark Ages, or Victorian London, please, be my guest." it's not going back to the dark ages at all to say you get out of something what you put into it. Those that have the ability to create things that people want, be it bridges, art, cellphones, movies, etc, will be richly rewarded for it. And in return, they'll create even faster. It's good for everyone. In other news, it's funny to watch the moochers (aka professional homeless) completely derail the free meals being prepared for OWS. And pissing everyone off in the process. The best part of OWS is that it's taught basic economics to thousands in just a few short weeks. Prior to that, they had no clue. What is even funnier is how surprised some are by it all.
- seattleeng
October 30, 2011 at 7:48pm
"it's not going back to the dark ages at all to say you get out of something what you put into it. Those that have the ability to create things that people want, be it bridges, art, cellphones, movies, etc, will be richly rewarded for it. And in return, they'll create even faster. It's good for everyone." Who ever said different. In our society inventors as a class are rewarded handsomely for their creativity as they ought to be. It's those folks who make nothing tangible but make money speculating on the mortgage market going south that are part of the problem in an unregulated financial market.
- arnon
October 30, 2011 at 9:56pm
WandreyCer, when I try to inject the common sense moral beliefs of the majority of the American people into the conversation you howl in protest. Face it: women who get pregnant with the expectation that the taxpayer will support the child are, in fact, sluts. If you support their behavior you are morally challenged and I hold you in the contempt that you deserve.
- bulbman1066
November 1, 2011 at 11:30pm
basman writes: "But I want to enter a complaint by way of observation: somebody, wiser and much better read than I, here once suggested to me that the essence of liberalism is generosity." The essence of liberalism is generosity with other people's money. Of course that isn't generosity at all. The essence of liberalism is hypocrisy.
- bulbman1066
November 2, 2011 at 12:52am
Put it this way, basman. My god is the late Steve Jobs. Your god is most likely some slimy public employee union boss or Democratic politician.
- bulbman1066
November 2, 2011 at 1:00am
Noga1, To explain how a brilliant man like Noam Chomsky can be so dishonest and so anti-human would be to solve the mystery of evil.
- bulbman1066
November 2, 2011 at 2:00am
bulby you're enough to try a man's soul. "Other's people's money" is one step away from someone's pending fortune or misfortune. Other's people's money is a decent social safety night, as argued for by Hayek for example. It's a hallmark of a just society that we try to help and buffer people against undue privation, ruin over uncontollable calamities like serious illness, lend a helping hand in the face of job loss, try to help the elderly, the impoverished, the disabled, make a decent secondary educaton affordable, try to approximate equality of opportunity by steps towards ameliorative equality of condtion, provide some buttressing, generally, against life's deep misfotunes and tragedies. That's not "other people's money" that's the state as commonwealth trying to be just and decent, where those who have benefited the most by what the state facilitates for all paying back more in fair proportion to their means. If you ever want to talk about this seriously then drop your shit about "who my God is" in your own toilet, then wipe your ass, then wash your hands and then make an argument worth my while.
- basman
November 2, 2011 at 5:48pm
bulby you're enough to try a man's soul. "Other's people's money" is one step away from someone's pending fortune or misfortune. Other's people's money is a decent social safety night, as argued for by Hayek for example. It's a hallmark of a just society that we try to help and buffer people against undue privation, ruin over uncontollable calamities like serious illness, lend a helping hand in the face of job loss, try to help the elderly, the impoverished, the disabled, make a decent secondary educaton affordable, try to approximate equality of opportunity by steps towards ameliorative equality of condtion, provide some buttressing, generally, against life's deep misfotunes and tragedies. That's not "other people's money" that's the state as commonwealth trying to be just and decent, where those who have benefited the most by what the state facilitates for all paying back more in fair proportion to their means. If you ever want to talk about this seriously then drop your shit about "who my God is" in your own toilet, then wipe your ass, then wash your hands and then make an argument worth my while.
- basman
November 2, 2011 at 9:46pm
Basman, We need to make a distinction between a government provided safety net, which the great libertarian economist and political philosopher Friederich von Hayek advocated, and a welfare state. A safety net would include unemployment insurance, privately owned Social Security accounts, vouchers for the poor to pay for schooling and medical care, and an earned income tax credit (negative income tax) for the working poor. By contrast, in the welfare state the government takes over what should be the role of the individual, the family and the community until all the life is sucked out of civil society, and the individual is reduced to perpetual minority as a ward of the state. It is only by making individual liberty and the right to keep what what has one earned, whether by labor or by investment, the *default*, and income transfers the *exception to the default* that a sustainable democratic society is possible. Income transfers are necessary up to a point. But beyond that tipping point they are self-defeating. The incentive to work, to save, to create is undermined, to everyone's detriment. The Europeans have discovered this the hard way.
- bulbman1066
November 3, 2011 at 12:00am
Can we agree that the key to sound policy is not to insulate people from the consequences of their behavior? Doing so creates what economists call a "moral hazard". The amount of wisdom contained in that term cannot be overestimated. Banks whose deposits are guaranteed by the taxpayer should be required by law to make only conservative investments. Beyond that the investor is on his own. Government flood insurance is a bad idea. It encourages people to build in flood plains. Government guarantees for mortgages are a terrible idea. They encourage banks to make irresponsible loans. Fill in the blanks with your favorite examples.
- bulbman1066
November 3, 2011 at 12:20am
Political Liberalism can be entirely consonant with the first side of your distinction—a safety net partly comprised by some of your specifics—and with the rejection of a welfare state as you define it. So for myself I'll accept your distinction and favour the first and, obviously, reject the second. Our problem, I think, or rather surmise, based on my reading of some of your posts is that you hold Obama and his administration as exemplars of the welfare state whereas I think him and it as exemplars of both pragmatic, centrist liberalism and Third Way politics. It’s trite to observe that the Democratic Party before Clinton had swung too far in the direction of a certain kind of statism that helped foster the Conservative political ascendancy marked at the executive level by Reagan and Bush 41. But Clinton even before his presidential ascent, as head of the Democratic Leadership Council, was already arguing for a roll back of welfare entitlements and in some respects a roll back of certain staples FDR’s depression geared entitlements. (To this day Clinton still sparks the hatred of a certain class of “progressives,” some who I know, who see a continuum between their Democratic Socialism and Liberalism.) But, to get to the point, Obama is a pragmatic centrist, an incrementalist, and a believer in regulated market capitalism in the flexibleThird Way tradition of Clinton and Blair, and not a latent Lenin ready to communize America. Then there is another big issue not touched on here either in principle or in practice and that is policies aimed at trying to approximate equality of condition to try to approximate equality of opportunity.
- basman
November 3, 2011 at 12:42am
I agree with you that Clinton was a moderate. As you say, he had roots in the DLC, and he returned to his moderate roots after the failure of his early swing to the left (Hillarycare) and the takeover of Congress by the Republicans. Clinton governed as an "Eisenhower Republican". To his eternal credit he passed NAFTA and welfare reform, which no Republican president would have been able to do. He worked will with the Republican Congress, and at least in domestic policy was the first successful Democratic president since Harry Truman. The idea that Obama is a Clintonian moderate just doesn't match his behavior. Don't ask me. Ask the American people. Read the polls. Obama's hard core progressivism has rightly spawned outrage in Middle America. A whole new populist political movement has grown out of outrage against Obama's stated desire to create a European style welfare state in the land of the free. Are you saying that Obama is lying when he declares his aim to "transform America" and to redistribute the wealth? Obama is far from being a centrist. His progressivism is in fact a major reason for the continuing high unemployment in this country. Why invest when there is a constant threat of new taxes and more regulation? This is particularly true as regards small business, the engine of employment growth. Large corporations are mostly doing well. They have all the employees they need, and they have the resources to deal with the burdens imposed by government. Not so small business.
- bulbman1066
November 3, 2011 at 3:39am
I agree with you that Clinton was a moderate. As you say, he had roots in the DLC, and he returned to those moderate roots after the failure of his early swing to the left (Hillarycare) and the takeover of Congress by the Republicans. Clinton governed as an "Eisenhower Republican". To his eternal credit he passed NAFTA and welfare reform, which no Republican president would have been able to do. He worked will with the Republican Congress, and at least in domestic policy was the first successful Democratic president since Harry Truman. The idea that Obama is a Clintonian moderate just doesn't match his behavior. Don't ask me. Ask the American people. Read the polls. Obama's hard core progressivism has rightly spawned outrage in Middle America. A whole new populist political movement has grown out of outrage against Obama's stated desire to create a European style welfare state in the land of the free. Are you saying that Obama is lying when he declares his aim to "transform America" and to redistribute the wealth? Obama is far from being a centrist. His progressivism is in fact a major reason for the continuing high unemployment in this country. Why invest when there is a constant threat of new taxes and more regulation? This is particularly true as regards small business, the engine of employment growth. Large corporations are mostly doing well. They have all the employees they need, and they have the resources to deal with the burdens imposed by government. Not so small business.
- bulbman1066
November 3, 2011 at 3:41am
"Why invest when there is a constant threat of new taxes and more regulation?" This somewhere beyond nonsense. There have been no new taxes since Obama took office -- indeed for the individual American or American family the tax burden has been reduced -- and even a restoration of tax rates to the Clinton era levels would not involve "new taxes." As far as regulation goes, there can always be genuine arguments about the one or the other constraint, but as we have seen to our cost capitalism cannot operate productively without it.
- ironyroad
November 3, 2011 at 11:59am
Obama hasn't raised taxes, but not for want of trying. Down the road we're going to have to raise taxes, but now is not the time to do it. We need regulation. On Wall Street we need to bring back the spirit, if not the letter, of Glass-Steagall, which required the separation of commercial from investment banking. We need to prevent the selling of securities like the packaged mortgages that are impossible to evaluate. What we don't need is a regulation requiring that loans be made to uncreditworthy customers. The politicians loved that regulation. The Democrats liked it because it helped "minorities" and supposedly promoted equality. Republicans liked it because they figured that since homeowners tend to vote Republican more homeowners would help the GOP. It turned out to be the mother of all bad policies. We need strict environmental regulation. But before turning the screws so tight that we throw large numbers of people out of work we need to do cost-benefit analyses. Getting rational discussion on this issue is difficult, but we have to do it. We need regulation. But the Center and the Right agree, I think, that incentives are generally preferable to command-and-control. Cap-and-trade, pollution taxes, that sort of thing.
- bulbman1066
November 3, 2011 at 2:02pm
If Obama is the committed socialist you think he is, bulbman, then why hasn't he been working day and night to achieve exactly the regulatory regime you describe above? And while we're at it, isn't the regulatory regime you describe pretty much a social democratic policy goal (one the Republicans would try to blow out of the water) of a type you otherwise claim to despise? And finally, if Obama has, in your opinion, been working toward the regulatory regime you describe, why are you against him? I mean, don't I look confused enough already? I agree with you about creditworthiness, but that is somewhat of a different matter from regulation. Indeed, it bespeaks the absence of it.
- ironyroad
November 3, 2011 at 2:13pm
Bulbman, Bulbman, you conceded that Clinton was a moderate, on the safety net side of the safety net/welfare state distinction you drew without objection from me. Yet he raised taxes amidst apocalyptic howls from supply siders, conservatives and libertarians promising significant economic detriment in the consequence—the economy did well in fact. So how do you square that circle, that is to say, the contradiction between him being a moderate yet committing the mortal sin, in your book, of raising taxes? As for moral hazard, it’s too simple and singular an idea, when it's not a slogan, to be a determinative prescription for all policy decisions. It’s, rather, an important factor and a significant presumption—people bearing the consequences of their choices—to be accounted for in context while balancing all factors weighing on decision making in any specific instance. It would be terrible for such a nostrum, important as it is, to inform an unbending ideological perspective in making policy. Had that been so, while I’m no expert in this, it seems that America would not have the car industry it now has. As someone, not me, once wrote, and I adopt it ...The history of modern American business is littered with federal bailouts, loan guarantees, and no-questions-asked reorganizations. Some are well known, such as the Chrylser bailout of 1979, the savings and loan bailout of 1989, and the airline bailout of 2001. Most occur in the relative dark, such as the 1998 bailout of giant hedge fund Long-Term Capital Management (courtesy of former Fed chair Alan Greenspan), the not infrequent bailouts of under-funded corporate pension plans by the government's Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation, price supports for big agribusinesses facing market downturns, or the bailout of Wall Street… As for Obama being a tendentious Socialist, that’s not a debate worth having. It’d be like arguing against the assertion that the earth is flat.
- basman
November 3, 2011 at 3:45pm
The repetition of your name was an accident, not an attempt at effect.
- basman
November 3, 2011 at 3:46pm
Basman, read what I write before you reply. I said that taxes are going to have to be raised (raised across the board, and not just on the top 1%). I merely pointed out now is not the time to do it. I think Keynesians, and members of just about every school of macroeconomics, agree with that. As for the bailouts you mention I'm against them, as are just about all conservatives. I reluctantly supported the rescue of the banks by Presidents Bush and Obama because there was a danger of worldwide depression if the banking system collapsed. As I understand it, the banks have paid the money back, but the moral hazard is obvious. Maybe some of the other bailouts were necessary also. If so we need to prevent such situations from arising by regulations aimed at ending "too big to fail". I think it would be better to call Obama a social democrat rather than a socialist, since "socialist" is an ambiguous term. It can mean either socialism as in Fidel Castro or Hugo Chavez, or it can mean social democracy as in the Labour Party in Great Britain. Different countries have different political scales. On the American scale Obama is far to the left. In France he would be center-left.
- bulbman1066
November 3, 2011 at 4:47pm
I don't know whether it's time now to raise taxes. I have little competence in economics. As for now being not the time to raise some taxes, why not? Your country needs some revenue and the desire, as I understand it is not to raise taxes on the middle class, which non raising, in theory, is stimulative, and to raise it by a few marginal points on the top dollar by those who can well afford to pay a little more and whose increased taxes won't deter either their spending or their industry--because they have enough money either way--as it didn't when Clinton raised taxes. I'll certainly try to read you more accurately but what was the rationale for Clinton raising taxes when he did, against the protest universal of the right, did you find so congenial that you still call him a moderate? That *seeming* contradiction has not yet been answered by you. Obama is not a social democrat or any mode of socialist. But conceptually, social democrat is an ambiguous term, rife with a mixture of big government notions and with respect for regulated markets. Not for nothing was Blair, the head of Britain's 'socialist party" a kind of poster child for Third Way politics, as was Clinton and as is, I argue, a Obama, and as is any reasonable centrist in the end. That Third Way can encompass a nominal "Social Democrat" like Blair shows how in the context of American politics how little utility there is in such a label and how absurd it is to apply to Obama. In Canada, my country, Stephen Harper, Tory, of even more radical right wing vintage, from his stint in Preston Manning's reform Party, would not dream of encroaching seriously on our national health care system.
- basman
November 3, 2011 at 6:09pm
Actually that should be lower middle class tax rates, which will be stimulative.
- basman
November 4, 2011 at 10:56am