POLITICS FEBRUARY 2, 2012
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The demonizing of Israel, dismissing the democratic Jewish state as a right-wing, religious, racist project, continues. The latest storyline describes ultra-Orthodox Israelis—known in Hebrew as haredim—as medieval Neanderthals rapidly converting Israel into an Iran-style theocracy. This popular caricature encourages those liberals seeking excuses to stop supporting Israel. The appalling images of bearded, black-hatted zealots spitting on eight-year-olds, forcing women to the back of public buses, and parading their children with yellow stars in protest, are all being read as tea leaves predicting Israel’s imminent degeneration into Haredistan. But what if the opposite is true? Haredi rampages seem more like impotent attempts to build a firewall against modernity than harbingers of conquest.
Change is coming to a community defined by its rejection of change. Haredim are joining Israeli society. Haredi vocational programs are proliferating, as government generosity wanes. Over 3000 haredi soldiers have now served in Israel’s army, including a combat-ready unit. Many haredi women, who increasingly are highly educated and working, are demanding more respect while continuing to maintain gender distinctions. The debate about television and internet usage is intensifying, as modern popular culture seeps into the society, which is not hermetically sealed.
While haredi triumphalists emphasize their high birthrate, the outflow of the last two centuries since the Enlightenment continues. Though statistics are elusive, communal anxiety abounds about the apostates. Most haredim, while denying the hemorrhaging, have close relatives who are no longer haredi. The deserters are numerous enough to have inspired a television drama series: Simanei She’eilah (question marks), which tracks the stories of haredi runaways living in a Tel Aviv halfway house, debuted last year.
The Zaka organization provides the most dramatic—and inspiring—example of haredi engagement with Israeli society. Zaka became famous during the second intifada, dispatching ultra-Orthodox crews who cleaned up the spilled blood and pieces of flesh strewn about after bombings. Their reverence and thoroughness impressed normally hostile secular Israelis. Zaka’s heroism, along with the suicide bombings in haredi neighborhoods, reminded all Israelis of their shared destiny. Today, more than 1500 Zaka volunteers nationwide serve in ambulances and participate in search and rescue operations. A Zaka team in Haiti after the 2010 earthquake worked through the Sabbath, saving lives.
One haredi friend, with two sons who served in the army, warns that articles praising Zaka volunteers and haredi soldiers often tout them as the “good” haredim for doing what haredim usually don’t do. “Note the many good deeds done by haredim doing what they normally do, too,” he urges, emphasizing the community’s charitable spirit and elaborate self-help networks. These spawned two leading social service organizations that serve all Israelis: Yad Eliezer established soup kitchens and distributed relief supplies during the 2006 Second Lebanon War, while Yad Sarah’s nationwide network assists the disabled, the elderly, and the housebound.
In the popular media, in both Israel and abroad, images of rock-throwing, gender-segregating, yellow-star-wearing extremists obscure these good works—and a more accurate picture. Noah Efron, a Bar Ilan University philosopher and historian, has explored the ingrained prejudice and popular revulsion against haredim. “The Jewish fight against ultra-Orthodoxy is part of a long-running struggle about what legitimately counts as Jewish,” Professor Efron says. “The modern forms of Judaism have so won the day that this need to continue fighting the battle seems neurotic.” Nevertheless, emphasizing the bad behavior of haredi Jews—who epitomize the stereotypical Jew—makes modern Jews and non-Jews feel better, less judged, suggesting that “these ostensibly superior Jews are actually inferior,” Efron says. “We continually prove our own probity to ourselves by proving the depravity of those people.”
More broadly, these stories provoke secular Westerners’ condescension toward religious people. Reading many of the American and European blogs about the haredi tensions this winter, Efron has been “stunned” by “the depths of the hatred and the crassness of the arguments. The attacks reflect a toxic mix of old style anti-Semitism and contemporary anti-Zionism, with a new style modern anti-anything-that-is-not-secular-liberal-and-Western added.”
Haredim—and their leaders—are, of course, partly responsible for the broad anger against them. Many lack civic spirit. Few serve in the army. The separation of women often entails inequality. Their politicians exploit Israel’s fragmented coalition-governing system. A culture of lawlessness has grown in many communities, and their holier-than-thou attitude toward fellow citizens rankles.
Nevertheless, even in Bet Shemesh, the town where the haredi men spat on the eight-year-old schoolgirl, the true story is more complex than headlines suggest. “Haredi residents are furious at the recent developments and resent that they are being blamed for the acts of a tiny minority,” the haredi paper, HaModia reported. This doesn’t excuse haredi leaders: In a hierarchical community that grants rabbis so much power, the rabbis must do a better job of restraining the bullies. But as Rabbi Yeshaya Ehrenreich, a member of the Beit Shemesh City Council, told the newspaper, “The haredim who live in the same neighborhoods as these [fringe elements] suffer more than anyone else.”
In Bet Shemesh and elsewhere, the fight often pits ultra-Orthodox against modern Orthodox, not necessarily religious versus secular. Rachel Azaria is a young activist who surprised everyone by winning a seat on Jerusalem’s City Council in the last election. She has fought gender segregation on buses and the banning of female images from bus ads, while working to make the Western Wall welcoming to all visitors and not the world’s largest outdoor haredi synagogue. A religious woman, the mother of three young children, Azaria insists she is not anti-haredi, and that many haredim have encouraged her. “I am the address for haredim,” she explains, “because I am willing to get my hands dirty.” She adds: “I want to affirm to the haredim that they are a part of us—we are all here to stay.”
Statistical projections warning of haredi hordes overwhelming “normal” Israel stoke the media hysteria. But statistical trends are not historical facts. In researching his 2003 book Real Jews: Secular Versus Ultra-Orthodox: The Struggle for Jewish Identity in Israel, Professor Efron traced these Chicken Little statistical warnings to the 1960s. “It has become a staple media trope,” Efron says, “with some predicting the tipping point in 10 years time, others seven, sometimes 15. It should have happened in 1970, then again, and again, but never did.” And while demographers insist that now the threat is real, the steady, underpublicized exit from the community may provide the counter that the million-person Russian immigration provided a decade ago. This attrition accounts for the mirror-image standoff. Haredi and non-haredi Israelis both feel embattled, threatened by the other, and abused by the other’s advantages.
This political dynamic, rooted in the 1990s, persists. Most histories of the haredim in Israel emphasize Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion’s initial deal to exempt a few Torah scholars from military duty. Two other moments were also critical. The counter-revolution of 1977, when Menachem Begin’s Likud broke the Labor Party’s 29-year political monopoly, fragmented the Israeli political market, boosting the haredim. During the 1990s, demagogues in the ultra-Orthodox party Shas and the anti-ultra-Orthodox party Shinui both discovered the political benefits of battling each other. The result has been growing polarization—and a feeling among the haredim that they are a despised minority, whose standing is resented and imperiled.
The recent spate of spats may be a good sign. Constructive reform sometimes begins with seemingly destructive clashes. Rachel Azaria and other activists no longer feel alone. They believe Israelis are now addressing this issue, which requires visionary leadership. The experience of the 1990s suggest that demagoguery and demonization will not help. What’s needed is statesmanship with a soft touch, a rarity in Israel’s dyspeptic political culture. The right accommodation with the haredim will balance values that are frequently in tension for Americans too. It is difficult reconciling majority rule with minority rights, freedom of religion with equality for women, group prerogatives with individual autonomy.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu could secure a second term with a more solid majority if he produced a new civic covenant between haredim and Israeli society. But Netanyahu will have to stop acting like a Chicago alderman and start acting like a national leader. Rather than tending his coalition above all else, he must take risks. He should leverage the generous subsidies the haredim currently enjoy to force the rabbis to control the bullies and accept more responsibilities as Israeli citizens. Needed reforms include teaching a core curriculum of general subjects in schools that receive state funding, limiting the number of army exemptions, and increasing vocational training. In return, Netanyahu should pass legislation guaranteeing haredim a separate school system and particular exemptions, so their every benefit is not perennially in doubt. And Netanyahu must move all Israelis beyond classical Zionism’s monolithic, tanned, bronzed secular “New Jews” finding unity in uniformity; today’s multicultural Israelis should celebrate diversity while sharing common civic commitments.
Just as particular historical forces shaped this haredi moment, a new covenant can foster a healthier relationship. Israelis await such wise governance, in this realm and many others.
Gil Troy is Professor of History at McGill University and a Shalom Hartman Institute Engaging Israel Fellow.
61 comments
Finally, a relatively knowledgable, level-headed TNR article about Israeli hareidim without all the shallow & simplistic stereotypical generalizations. I didn't think TNR was capable of rising above its hidebound Liberal illiberalism. Hershel Ginsburg Jerusalem / Efrata (but in Brooklyn this week)
- ginzy
February 6, 2012 at 12:24am
This is an optimistic report and I for one wish that what he wrote would come to pass: “Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu could secure a second term with a more solid majority if he produced a new civic covenant between haredim and Israeli society. But Netanyahu will have to stop acting like a Chicago alderman and start acting like a national leader. Rather than tending his coalition above all else, he must take risks. He should leverage the generous subsidies the haredim currently enjoy to force the rabbis to control the bullies and accept more responsibilities as Israeli citizens. Needed reforms include teaching a core curriculum of general subjects in schools that receive state funding, limiting the number of army exemptions, and increasing vocational training. In return, Netanyahu should pass legislation guaranteeing haredim a separate school system and particular exemptions, so their every benefit is not perennially in doubt. And Netanyahu must move all Israelis beyond classical Zionism’s monolithic, tanned, bronzed secular “New Jews” finding unity in uniformity; today’s multicultural Israelis should celebrate diversity while sharing common civic commitments.” However, I have little faith in Netanyahu’s leadership. I would have been more impressed by Professor troy’s report had he quoted the current head of the central Bank in Israel Stanley Fischer who recently warned that Israeli society cannot continue making payments to populations (he cited Arabs and Haredim) who do not work. As to the confrontation between Haredim and secular society, no one suggests that Israel is about to become a theocracy tomorrow or the day after. However, when many secular Israelis don’t feel comfortable in Jerusalem that’s an indication that the conflict isn’t merely a media creation. The one paragraph where professor Troy offers some real hope is this one: “Haredim—and their leaders—are, of course, partly responsible for the broad anger against them. Many lack civic spirit. Few serve in the army. The separation of women often entails inequality. Their politicians exploit Israel’s fragmented coalition-governing system. A culture of lawlessness has grown in many communities, and their holier-than-thou attitude toward fellow citizens rankles.” This shows the enormity of the task ahead for responsible leaders to work on integrating Haredim into the modern Jewish world. I wish them luck.
- arnon
February 6, 2012 at 12:54am
This is a very perceptive and knowledgeable article. "The demonizing of Israel, dismissing the democratic Jewish state as a right-wing, religious, racist project, continues." This is exactly my point. "However, I have little faith in Netanyahu’s leadership." On this issue or in general?
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
February 6, 2012 at 7:19am
While balm for those who spy anti-Semitism in all criticism of Israel or any aspect of Israeli society -- while always intoning that there is room for legitimate criticism of Israel, this just isn't it, as this is never it -- this piece both misses the point and caricatures the left, also in the inevitable manner by which any criticism of Israel is deflected. "Oh yes, there is grounds for criticism, but this criticism fails to appreciate all of the subtleties, the nuances, the difficulties, and is hysterical and over-wrought and extremist and seeks ultimately only to demonize Israel (hint, anti-Semitic). But that's not to say there are not grounds for criticism, just that only those who are here may criticize, and then only if they are not too left." Sure. The concrete issue is official tolerance for lawless behavior by right-wing elements of Israeli society. There is a separate issue of special privileges for haredim that do not seem to be of much concern to those outside of Israel. I find them odd, but don't much care if the society wishes to grant them if it is willing to do the same for non-Jews. The imposition of the haredim on others, particularly when assisted by the state or due to state tolerance, is a different matter. Israel is not exempt from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, much as the critics of its critics would like it to be.
- roidubouloi
February 6, 2012 at 8:26am
Not that anything that happens in America has any relevance for events elsewhere, but compare and contrast: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rock_Nine This is how a society that refuses to tolerate extremist lawlessness behaves. Here's another example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altalena_Affair But then, Benjamin Netanyahu is no David Ben-Gurion.
- roidubouloi
February 6, 2012 at 8:38am
roi: The left does a great job caricaturing itself. Your comment is the proof.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
February 6, 2012 at 12:26pm
BTW, good example with Altilena roi. I agree, artillery should definitely be used against Meah Shearim.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
February 6, 2012 at 12:28pm
Well said: ...Haredim—and their leaders—are, of course, partly responsible for the broad anger against them. Many lack civic spirit. Few serve in the army. The separation of women often entails inequality. Their politicians exploit Israel’s fragmented coalition-governing system. A culture of lawlessness has grown in many communities, and their holier-than-thou attitude toward fellow citizens rankles... I would just amend that by deleting the word "often" in the fourth quoted sentence. Part of the premise of this sensible piece is that outward looking and outward wanting dynamics within the ultra orthodox stand to weaken them and make them less of a force in Israeli society. That premise and the other described countervails against their power and influence help make the case against their zealous impositions on Israeli public space.
- basman
February 6, 2012 at 1:26pm
I correctly predicted that that was EXACTLY what you would say, makeover, because I understand perfectly both how obtuse you are and how devoted to defense of the indefensible in your customary style of obfuscation. Do you really think that it requires artillery to persuade the religious and other rightwing zealots that they too must abide by the law, or can that be achieved with ordinary law enforcement and firm political will, both of which are lacking under the government of Prime Minister Benjmin Netanyahu? That is his office, no? Not toady and pandered in chief?
- roidubouloi
February 6, 2012 at 1:30pm
What a shame that arnon and roi seem to be the only representatives of Democratic American Jews on this board. They tend to radicalize every discussion they step into. Seven comments into the thread and roi is suggesting that Haredi neibourhoods in Israel be subject to the same treatment as the historic Etzel weapons ship "Altalena" was served: it was bombed and sank into the sea. Such an act is necessary, apparently, to place Netanyahu on the same level of greatness as Ben Gurion. I'm wondering why this obsessive interest in the way a minority in Israeli society conducts itself while a very real and menacing crisis is developing with regards to all Jews in Israel. It's not an attempt to distract, is it? http://www.wnd.com/2012/02/ayatollah-kill-all-jews-annihilate-israel/ "In order to attack Iran, the article says, Israel needs the approval and assistance of America, and under the current passive climate in the United States, the opportunity must not be lost to wipe out Israel before it attacks Iran. Under this pre-emptive defensive doctrine, several Ground Zero points of Israel must be destroyed and its people annihilated. Forghani cites the last census by the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics that shows Israel has a population of 7.5 million citizens of which a majority of 5.7 million are Jewish. Then it breaks down the districts with the highest concentration of Jewish people, indicating that three cities, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and Haifa, contain over 60 percent of the Jewish population that Iran could target with its Shahab 3 ballistic missiles, killing all its inhabitants."
- noga1
February 6, 2012 at 1:38pm
As a person with no direct experience of Israel, and as a person with no horses in this race, and as a person with lots of horses in this race, I am not sure what to believe, I am not sure whom to believe, and I am not sure what to do (though I presume there is not much I can do).
- skahn
February 6, 2012 at 2:13pm
"I correctly predicted that that was EXACTLY what you would say" We have a term for somebody that can "predict EXECTLY what you would say". We call him one who ate the s..t of the prophets. B' teavon roi:
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
February 6, 2012 at 2:28pm
The last thing the Haredim need is a separate school system with exemptions. This is basically what they have now ever since Ben Gurion gift to them to become the first PM. Their children end up unprepared for the modern world as if relegating them to always be wards of society. Plus why should anyone in a country at war for the seeable future have some who do not serve?
- Poupic
February 6, 2012 at 2:31pm
noga: I don't know about Arnon, but roi is definitely not a representative of Democratic anything, whether it be Jews, Christians, Muslims or pagans. roi is representative of idiocracy, so prevalent in the lunatic circles like the ones he frequents.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
February 6, 2012 at 2:39pm
Too bad noga1 with her guilty conscious makes herself a spokeswoman for Israel.
- arnon
February 6, 2012 at 3:07pm
arnon: Why do you think Noga has a guilty conscience? I am not sure I understand.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
February 6, 2012 at 4:03pm
And what shall we make of noga and makover as representatives of Israel? One must constantly remind oneself not to generalize from these two defenders of the execrable to the country as a whole. Because, if these two were representative of their country, then Israel would be an abhorrent place deserving of no sympathy or support from anyone. Yes, noga, you and makover, twin morons, believe that I am suggesting that the haredim be shelled with artillery, rather than that the state must use as much force as is necessary to prevent extremists from taking the law into their own hands or defying it, EVEN if that requires the use of artillery. The issue is not so much the vile behavior of some of the haredim and some of the settler fanatics, but that right-wing lawlessness is tolerated by the state. THAT is the serious problem, something Ben Gurion understood to be utterly intolerable, even to the point of using artillery. As Abba Eban might have said of you, you never miss an opportunity to fail to see a point. ______________ It takes no great insight, surely not prophetic insight, to predict what you are going to say, makover. Most every utterance of yours is banal and juvenile, hence predictable, often, as in this case, in detail. LOL. _________________ Noga does not have a guilty conscience, arnon. Noga has no conscience. That, indeed, is her defining characteristic, the very definition of sociopathy.
- roidubouloi
February 6, 2012 at 4:10pm
Evidence of a some conspiracy-addling having set in: ...I'm wondering why this obsessive interest in the way a minority in Israeli society conducts itself while a very real and menacing crisis is developing with regards to all Jews in Israel. It's not an attempt to distract, is it?... with the emphasis on "...It's not an attempt to distract, is it..."
- basman
February 6, 2012 at 4:13pm
"... o prevalent in the lunatic circles like the ones he frequents." Here is the thing, makover. I don't think roi is half as boisterous as he is here. I suspect that where there are non-Jews Democrats present he is very docile and on his best behaviour. He exhibits EXACTLY the same craven spirit of those activist Satmars and other Chareidim. Where I live, they are extremely well behaved and docile (even when they call me and my little girl "pritzes" they do it in Yiddish and in low voice). There is no question of throwing stones on passing cars on Shabbatt or their own segregated buses. When they are in Israel, all of sudden, they find their assertive voice, they go out in the streets, they deface public property, they spit on little girls, they maintain segregated buses. Why is that, do you think? ___________ "We call him one who ate the s..t of the prophets." I'm not familiar with this saying. Is it relatively new? What I know is that according to an old Hebrew saying, since the destruction of the Temple, 1,935 years ago, the gift of prophecy has been granted only to idiots.
- noga1
February 6, 2012 at 4:17pm
When "a very real and menacing crisis is developing with regards to all Jews in Israel," what should one do? Well, if you are a clod like Benjamin Netanyahu, you abjure diplomacy, do whatever you can to frustrate it, likewise do what you can to alienate the support of your critical ally, threaten action that you don't really have the means to carry out (but might scare everyone else about the unpredictable consequences so as to get them to do something) and . . . build apartments for religious and settler nuts, of course. What else? Given Netanyahu's behavior in the face of this "developing crisis," is it remotely plausible that Israel intelligence really perceives a grave threat? Is it possible that anyone could actually behave as Netanyahu does faced with such a threat? Or is this just an effort to draw attention away from Israel's continuing human rights violations? Look over there, nukes!
- roidubouloi
February 6, 2012 at 4:20pm
"There is no question of throwing stones on passing cars on Shabbat or their own segregated buses." Because in a civilized place they would be arrested and prosecuted until they desisted. Their religious fanaticism would not be tolerated, surely not treated as a reason to accord them immunity. Cannot even draw the obvious conclusions from your own anecdote, can you noga? No wonder you prefer to live in Canada, with a constitution that was identified in today's NYT as the most highly respected in the world. Who can blame you for preferring Canada to Israel?
- roidubouloi
February 6, 2012 at 4:25pm
The author is not going to convince many with this hyperventilating, over-sensitive and wildly defensive article. I've never heard any outlet of the MSM infer that Israel was becoming Iran. Silly hyperbole. There is, however, no question that the Israeli government is quickly burning through its political capital with moderate and liberal Americans. Perhaps this is the source of the author's defensive posture?
- Tilghman79
February 6, 2012 at 4:46pm
“Haredi residents are furious at the recent developments and resent that they are being blamed for the acts of a tiny minority,” the haredi paper, HaModia reported. I think an analogy to Kamtza and Bar Kamtza might be appropriate here. The Talmud relates a story of a wealthy man hosting a lavish feast and wished to invite his friend Kamtza. However, his servant by mistake conveyed the invitation to his enemy Bar Kamtza. When Bar Kamtza showed up at the feast, the host was outrages and expelled him from the feast. Bar Kamtza asked not to be humiliated by such a public ejection and offered to pay his portion of the feast, then half the cost of the entire event and finally the entire cost. None of this assuaged the host who unceremoniously ejected Bar Kamtza from the feast. Afterwards, Bar Kamtza decided that he didn't harbor resentment to the host, because he was his enemy and thus it was understandable, but he did resent that none of the other guests at the feast rise up in his defense. Such is the case with Hareidi society and the actions of their small number of extremists, and it is a small number, only 50 to 100 families. However, when a petition went out opposing the actions of the handful of extremists, only two individual hareidim signed it and no hareidi rabbis did.
- sighthnd
February 6, 2012 at 5:01pm
"Because in a civilized place " I see. Israel is not a civilized place, so sayeth roi. Fact is that the rioters and the spitters were all arrested and indicted. But you wouldn't allow such tiny details derail your sprayed venom.
- noga1
February 6, 2012 at 5:32pm
sighthnd, I like your analogy. I think it does illustrate the principle of peer pressure very nicely. We tend to regard peer pressure as a negative but the fact is that as in anything that deals with human behaviour, peer pressure can be both a negative as well as a positive force. The problem is that Charedi communities are quite hermetic. However, many Charedi women are in the workforce so some paths are open for inter-community dialog. I once worked in a company where the bookkeeper was a Charedi woman. There was absolutely nothing that we could not discuss, including her affection for Danielle Steele's novels (which apparently had been okayed for reading by her rabbi).
- noga1
February 6, 2012 at 5:42pm
noga: It's very old. It fits hemoroid perfectly אכל חרה של נביא. To respond to hemoroid is difficult, how can one get down to a level of a slug? Very challenging. But that's all for tonight hemoroid.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
February 6, 2012 at 5:52pm
I'm afraid the author is too easy on the Haredim. I cannot accept his characterization of the once secular party, Shinnui, as being equally demagogic as Shas. Religious parties in Israel seek to comandeer the police powers of the state in order to impose their views on unwilling Israeli citizens. Secular parties just want to make sure that religious observance is a matter of personal choice and not of government coercion. This, interestingly enough, also tracks the difference between church/state seprationists in the Untied States and the religious right wing. In the final analysis, an atheist like is also far more supportive of Israel's military operations, undertaken in self defense, than would be many ultra orthodox who don't even accept Israel's legitimacy, yet benefit from the Israeli government's largesse.
- liberalman
February 6, 2012 at 6:17pm
"many ultra orthodox who don't even accept Israel's legitimacy, " Perhaps you could provide some statistics. How many of those you call "ultra orthodox" are of the Satmar anti-Zionist kind? Is Shas among them? Is there a difference between "Ultra orthodox" and Charedim? Where do the religious settlers fit into this?
- noga1
February 6, 2012 at 6:29pm
In an earlier comment, I asked for guidance (as a person with little personal expertise with Israel) how to make sense of this discussion. Without any such guidance, I am stuck to fumbling along on my own, with the usual lamentable results. As follows: 1. People who communicate for purposes not clear to me – can it possibly be to persuade? – by using insults and calling names and maligning the intelligence and character of the people they communicate with – somehow lose “ethos” with me. 2. As an extravagant admirer since childhood of Roger Williams, and an admirer of how the separation of church and state seems to have contributed to the stability and general welfare of the United States, I hold a great deal of suspicion and uneasiness about the wisdom of forming a national state on the basis of a particular church or religious group. Despite my lack of Middle East experience, I do know some Palestinian Christians who told me they fled Palestine (after having bullets flying over their heads and similar unpleasant experiences) to Saudi Arabia. At first things seemed to go well – as a family member was a close advisor to the Saudi King – but after a while they became restive and unhappy at experiences such as being told their daughters should wear veils (not exactly a Palestinian CHRISTIAN thing). They seem to be much happier here in the United States where they go to the church they wish to, where their daughters dress as they please, and they operate a very successful and constructive business. Although their names might sound a little odd, they strike me as downright American, if you know what I mean. Well, the Muslim countries of the Middle East are what they are, and Israel is what it is, and if God exists [whatever faith He or She observes] I hope that some day God will persuade all the countries of the Middle East to live in peace and prosperity and mutual respect. Tomorrow, say, would not be a bad day for everyone to give it a whirl, just for the Hell of it.
- skahn
February 6, 2012 at 6:50pm
Skhan: medicus curare te
- arnon
February 6, 2012 at 7:14pm
"Despite my lack of Middle East experience, I do know some Palestinian Christians who told me they fled Palestine..." Kahn must be suffering form Alzheimer's. He has posted this same anecdote at least a half dozen times. Whenever the Israel is mentioned on a thread. His line is that he doesn't know much about Jewishness, apparently he has never met a Jew. However, he has met many Arabs and he knows what "nice people they are." At the very least Kahn is a passive aggressive.
- arnon
February 6, 2012 at 7:34pm
Why do you live in Canada noga?
- WandreyCer
February 6, 2012 at 7:54pm
Montreal
- noga1
February 6, 2012 at 8:06pm
Montreal is in Israel.
- nr106646
February 6, 2012 at 8:34pm
Arnon Insults #8 and #9 if I am counting correctly.
- skahn
February 6, 2012 at 10:28pm
Kahn, your inane post are an insult. Stop inflicting your neurosis on everyone here.
- arnon
February 6, 2012 at 11:01pm
No, noga, Israel is no longer a civilized place. It forfeited the claim to be a member in good standing of the civilized world when colonization of the Arabs became official government policy, courtesy of the Israeli right. That more than likely was the de facto policy for many years, as the Arabs claimed and the government always denied, but now there is no longer any doubt. Israel therefore encounters the opprobrium of almost the entire world, which the apologists like you dismiss as anti-Semitism on the grounds that there are worse crimes being perpetrated elsewhere. As the right-wing ascends and the society adjusts itself to the "norm" of colonization, it is inevitable that the coarsening and indifference to human rights begins to infect the broader society. The social disease of colonization cannot, alas, be confined to the colonies as the same sort of twisted, religious-extremist "logic" that justifies the one spills over the boundaries and manifests itself in society. Official appeasement of the extremists only emboldens them. The claim that the lawlessness of the haredi is being met with what anyone even might consider effective law enforcement is a falsehood. So in character for you, noga. Do you ever make a claim here that is not false? See for example: http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/12/haredim-allegedly-attack-modern-orthodox-man-in-beit-shemesh-234.html This passage is particularly chilling: "These haredi extremists have previously assaulted students, hurled rocks at the building and at Modern Orthodox children, and called the girls whores. They also stormed the school building, took over some of the classrooms, and tried to vandalize them, but Modern Orthodox parents fought back and drove the haredim out of the building." So, in Israel, this civilized place, it is the necessity that parents "fight back" and drive haredi assailants from the building. Do you suppose any were arrested? How long do you think it ought to take for the police to arrive in response to an incident like this? Why is there no continuous police presence in the immediate environs given the clear intention of the haredi community to continue to engage in this behavior? One must also contrast the response of the police to stone-throwing and rioting haredi to their response to stone-throwing Palestinians. What, no tear gas? No riot police? No riot gear? Definitely stay in Canada, noga. You wouldn't be safe in Israel. Meanwhile, no arrests yet in the two "price-tag" arsons of West Bank mosques. Israel seems to have better intelligence within the Arab community than the Jewish community. Likewise, no progress on dismantling the settlements that even the Israeli government considers to be illegal. Action has been officially postponed for six months of negotiations with settlers, although this problem has persisted for years without any meaningful government response. The Israeli government cowers and appeases in the face of right-wing lawlessness, while demanding that the far weaker Arab proto-state bring its violent elements to heal. Such hypocrisy. But what can you expect from a place that has walked away from civilization? Israel is in the process of turning itself into an anachronism, the last colonial enterprise in the western world. Very painful to see.
- roidubouloi
February 7, 2012 at 10:59am
Saw a great bumper sticker yesterday: "Proud to Be Everything the Right-Wing Hates" What a wonderful sentiment, one that I share completely! For which reason insults from makover are truly a badge of honor. If you weren't spitting like a haredi fanatic, makover, I would worry that I was getting tired or soft. One can almost be certain of being on the right track if you are inspired to insult.
- roidubouloi
February 7, 2012 at 11:08am
" ..., courtesy of the Israeli right. " Anyone with the most rudimebntary knowledge of Israel's history would know that the settlement projects in the West bank, Gaza and the golan heights were initiated and consolidated by Israeli governments dominated by the Labout party. But don't let facts interfere with roi's favourite revised histories and records. http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/Occupation%20and%20Settlement.htm "Settlements for Military Purposes Agrarian settlements manned by IDF soldiers were established soon after the war along what the IDF felt were crucial corridors of defense, especially along the Jordan river, near the “Green Line”, in the Golan Heights, and near Gaza. Because Egypt, Syria and Jordan remained belligerent states for decades after the war, and because the PLO was actively trying to develop bases for terrorism in the newly conquered territories, and because Israel had previously been invaded across these territories, these settlements were intended primarily to serve a strategic military defensive purpose. The Alon plan, developed by General Yigal Alon shortly after the war, envisioned a series of these military-agrarian settlements (referred to as “nahal” in Hebrew) protecting strategic areas along the Jordan river (it is important to recall that the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan was in a de iure state of war with Israel until 1994) and across parts of the West Bank where surveillance and the potential for rapid military deployment were deemed essential for security purposes. In several cases, where Palestinian farmers utilized the Israeli court system to lodge complaints that the army was unnecessarily taking land without proper military purpose, the Israeli High Court of Justice decided in favor of the plaintiffs. The army site at Beth El (near Ramallah) is the best-known case, and probably one of the few cases in all of world history where the legal system of the victorious country decided in favor of the defeated, contrary to the security-related demands of the army. The IDF was forced to move its base about ten kilometers further west, to accommodate the land claims of the local Palestinians. Settlements of Jews Returning To Their Pre-1948 Homes Settlement of civilian Israelis in the West Bank began shortly after the 6-day war, with a small group of Orthodox Jews setting up a few households in the former Jewish section of Hebron, followed by larger re-settling of Jews in the rapidly reconstructed Jewish Quarter of East Jerusalem. Jews had lived in Hebron almost continuously since the days of Joshua (3100 years), and were expelled only during the horrific Arab pogroms of 1929 in which hundreds were slaughtered. Jewish habitation in Jerusalem had a similar millennia-long history, with the 1948 war and the massacre of about half of the population of the Jewish Quarter terminating Jewish presence there. Later, Jews resettled the villages of the Kfar Etzion area (aka Gush Etzion) southwest of Bethlehem. Since this area had been extensively settled and developed in the early part of the 20th century by Zionist pioneers, and most of the Jews of these villages were massacred by Arab irregulars during the 1948 war, the return of Israelis to these sites created additional Type B settlements. Expanding Suburbs Unoccupied areas around Jerusalem and to the east of Kfar Saba and Netania (near Tel Aviv) and to the northeast of Petah Tiqvah were used as sites for major building projects that created low cost housing for the expanding populations of the Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv areas. In most cases, the land utilized for these projects was Jordanian ‘Crown Land,’ land to which no individual could lay claim of private ownership. In the absence of Jordan’s willingness to enter into peace negotiations after the war, Israel’s expropriation of these unoccupied areas was legal in as much as Israel’s sovereignty, having been created via defensive actions against an aggressor nation (Jordan), was legal. In cases where West Bank Arabs legally owned land that Israel wanted for these expansion projects, Israel bought the land at fair market prices. Land sale to Israel was fairly active throughout the decades after the Six-day war. So much so that when the Palestinian Authority was established in 1994, chairman Arafat declared that sale of land to Jews was punishable by death; as a result, Palestinian families who had benefited from these sales were suddenly in mortal danger and some were forced to flee the West Bank. The rapid growth in Jerusalem’s Jewish population after the war presented the Israeli government with both a problem and a solution of considerable political valence. Areas of dense Jewish settlement were developed in order to accommodate this growth, and these settlements were used to surround Jerusalem, such that the 1948-67 phenomenon of a “Jerusalem Corridor” (where Jerusalem was surrounded on 3.5 sides by hostile Arab towns and villages with access to other Israeli areas restricted to only one narrow road) would not be re-created in the context of a future peace agreement with the Arabs. The outlying areas (French Hill, Ammunition Hill, Gilo, Ma’aleh Adumim, Har Homah, inter alia) were turned into hi-rise suburbs that expanded the city’s perimeter and accommodated the burgeoning population. Of these, only Gilo was built on privately owned land. A Christian family in Beit Jalla sold the hill-top site to the municipality of Jerusalem in 1974. Missionary Settlements Over time, religious and right wing political pressure supported the creation of settlements elsewhere in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Under Prime Ministers Begin and Rabin, these settlements proliferated. Often they were founded near ancient Jewish holy sites, such as Joseph’s Tomb near Nablus (Biblical Shehem). "
- noga1
February 7, 2012 at 12:28pm
Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of Israel's history would know that the government used to claim that the settlements were not a violation of international law because not permanent, subject to being removed as the result of successful negotiations for a peace settlement. That is no longer the case, courtesy of the Israeli right. Hence, "It forfeited the claim to be a member in good standing of the civilized world when colonization of the Arabs became official government policy, courtesy of the Israeli right. That more than likely was the de facto policy for many years, as the Arabs claimed and the government always denied, but now there is no longer any doubt." Don't let the facts get in your way, noga. You haven't up until now, no reason to start. As you are nothing more than a propagandist anyway, it doesn't matter. As ever, you invent your own versions of what people say with which to take issue. So tedious. So tiresome. So noga.
- roidubouloi
February 7, 2012 at 1:04pm
roi's explicit and self-righteous slander reminds me of something I read recently about the author Ian McEwan: "After discussing his many duplicitous characters—such as Briony Tallis, the precocious adolescent of his 2001 novel, “Atonement,” who ruins two lives when she makes a false accusation of rape—McEwan pointed to a “study in cognitive psychology” suggesting that “the best way to deceive someone is first to deceive yourself,” because you’re more convincing when you’re sincere. (“She trapped herself, she marched into the labyrinth of her own construction,” McEwan writes of Briony. “Her doubts could be neutralized only by plunging in deeper.”)"
- noga1
February 7, 2012 at 1:21pm
You are no doubt completely oblivious to the irony of what you just posted. It's a very good laugh though for those who aren't.
- roidubouloi
February 7, 2012 at 2:17pm
roi and irony are mutually exclusive. Never seen anyone less likely to be an ironist than the semi-professional politician of the TNR boards. Maybe Prof. AbuKhalil, from U of California. Maybe.
- noga1
February 7, 2012 at 2:24pm
Abu Khalil is from California State University, not U of C. We've been through this.
- ironyroad
February 7, 2012 at 2:51pm
It's confusing. And not really all that important.
- noga1
February 7, 2012 at 3:21pm
The latest from the professor of political science at California State University, Stanislaus and visiting professor at UC, Berkeley, AbuKhalil: "Israel's existence "On Sunday he told his cabinet that for Israel, living in the Middle East required self-sufficiency and toughness. “In such a region,” he said, “the only thing that ensures our existence, security and prosperity is our strength.”" Let me tell you this--although I don't talk to you or to your ilk--nothing, I mean nothing, can ensure your existence. The entity is doomed. Start running. "
- noga1
February 7, 2012 at 3:41pm
Another nugget reported with much glee by AbuKhalil: "A poll of Arab public opinion (pdf) by the University of Maryland and Zogby International, which included Egypt, asked respondents to "name two countries that are the biggest threat to you": 88% named the United States, and 77% named Israel; only 9% chose Iran."
- noga1
February 7, 2012 at 3:46pm
"It's confusing. And not really all that important." Huh. You never seem to have any difficulty discerning the obscure differences between the various lunatic right-wing elements of Israeli society and the Israeli government itself. Why should this cause you you so much trouble?
- bunthorne
February 7, 2012 at 3:49pm
"Why should this cause you you so much trouble?" What a silly question. As an Israeli of course I would be much more knowledgeable and savvy about the way Israeli society functions. As a Canadian I have much greater intimacy with the way Canadian society and institutions operate. Why would I have much, or any, familiarity with the way Californian Universities are named? Have you run out of rational accusations to fling about? I'm glad to note , though, that you follow my comments attentively.
- noga1
February 7, 2012 at 4:28pm
Look, cows! It is inevitable that whenever there is critical discussion of Israel, noga will eventually try to distract us by turning our attention to some depravity or depraved remark from the Moslem world. So, let's see, do you think Netanyahu really did say that The New York Times and Ha'aretz are the two biggest threats to Israel? I bet he did, but no one recorded the conversation, so we will never know. Is there some other Israeli depravity we can discuss to amuse ourselves while noga carries on? Even more amusing, noga, than your failure to see the irony of your post is that you remain oblivious, even after it is pointed out to you, while insisting that it is I, rather than you, who does not understand irony. You are doubling down. Funnier still. If one can forget your viciousness and ignore the content of what you say here, the absurdities are a barrel of laughs.
- roidubouloi
February 7, 2012 at 5:05pm
" Look, cows! It is inevitable that whenever there is critical discussion of Israel, noga will eventually try to distract ..." Watch out, roi. This kind of talk might be taken as "Evidence of a some conspiracy-addling having set in: " ...
- noga1
February 7, 2012 at 5:44pm
You are a conspiracy of one, thank god. If there were two of you in cahoots, it wouldn't be safe to walk the streets in Montreal either.
- roidubouloi
February 7, 2012 at 7:38pm
Oh, it's already morning and the hemo roid is still here "foaming" at the mouth? He must be a result of "Santorum". Time to apply "Preparation H" to this blog and get rid of this disease!
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
February 7, 2012 at 11:21pm
Challenged by reading the clock too, makover? pm means "post meridian" and signifies the afternoon and evening. But it is now morning in America, and here is the über-putz, our favorite four-year old moron, blessing us with his tushy jokes. You really are pathetic, makover. Do your country a favor, go anywhere else, just not here. Maybe noga has a place on the floor for you in Canada. She can open a day-care center with you as the first and only client.
- roidubouloi
February 8, 2012 at 8:24am
Thank you for translation hemo roid. I didn't know that. Wow. You are so smart. By the way, I was referring to morning in Israel. I understand that in America is only half time.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
February 8, 2012 at 2:18pm
makover is in Israel and it was morning there when he wrote the comment. Someone is certainly challenged on these boards.
- noga1
February 8, 2012 at 2:19pm
It wasn't his morning at 7:38 EST, now was it? Let me help you: The big hand tells the minutes, the little hand tells the hour. I think changing makover's diaper would be the perfect job for you, noga. You can learn to tell time together. :-)
- roidubouloi
February 8, 2012 at 2:47pm
At 02/06/2012 - 5:32pm EDT I wrote: "I see. Israel is not a civilized place, so sayeth roi. Fact is that the rioters and the spitters were all arrested and indicted. But you wouldn't allow such tiny details derail your sprayed venom." And roi managed to distract from the main point by going into an unleashed fulmination against Israel and Palestinians (not the subject of this thread). But let it be noted that roi's declaration about incivility in Israel was this: "Because in a civilized place they would be arrested and prosecuted until they desisted" Since his "rationale" for calling Israel uncivil was an easily provable lie and a slander, he immediately seized upon the most available inciter around, namely, poor Palestinians. If one reason is disproved, what ho, roi's got plenty others in his bag of tricks. Any lie, any invention, any insult, any distortion will do, as long as he can score a point. The work of the consummate mob inciter, our very own semi-professional politician of the boards.
- noga1
February 8, 2012 at 5:56pm
I just noticed also that wandercer (or whatever) was asking WHY I live in Canada, not where. I gave her too much credit, I guess. Why do you need to know?
- noga1
February 8, 2012 at 6:00pm
What bizarre kinds of insults roi thinks up when he tries to convince peoples that Israel is an uncivil place and that he is in a position to make that judgment: " Maybe noga has a place on the floor for you in Canada. She can open a day-care center with you as the first and only client." "I think changing makover's diaper would be the perfect job for you, noga. "
- noga1
February 8, 2012 at 8:48pm
Ah, now you are in your element, noga. Lying and fabricating. Your stock in trade. It is not the case, not even remotely close to being the case, that "the rioters and the spitters were all arrested and indicted." You just made that up. Despite an ongoing series of incidents involving hundreds of haredi rioters, only a handful have been arrested. And it is directly relevant that the police display none of the zeal they show with regard to Palestinian lawbreakers. Here's a good example: "Several hundred hareidim hurled rocks at police forces and set garbage dumpsters on fire on Nehar HaYarden street, near the Orot Neria girls' school. . . . Police dispersed the rioters and arrested three of them." http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/151228#.TzNF4Zi1mrJ That's showing them! Here's another concerning a different riot: "Hundreds gather in haredi neighborhood of Mea Shearim for Eda Haredit rally to protest arrest of six members who are suspected of carrying out tax offenses worth millions. . . . On Sunday evening aome 200 ultra-Orthodox in Beit Shemesh blocked a street, threw stones and clashed with police forces in protest against the arrests. Four demonstrators were detained." http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4175778,00.html Here's another, regarding the latest incident. "According to Haaretz, these tensions erupted into a full-scale riot today, Approximately 300 ultra-Orthodox Jews began chasing police officers, hurled rocks at them, and burned trash cans after police were called to remove a sign on a main street that orders the separation of men and women in the neighborhood. The sign has been removed and re-instated several times over the past two days. Confrontations also occurred in another of the city’s neighborhood after a Channel 10 news crew attempted to film a news piece in the neighborhood. The crew was surrounded by ultra-Orthodox residents who began harassing the crew, who immediately called for police reinforcement. One policeman was wounded by a rock and two of the rioters were arrested." Two? Three? Four? Out of hundreds? Is this what you mean by "all?' So, you see, noga, it's just another case of your lying. You always lie. You always fabricate. Here you are again. This is not a civilized place, because you are in it. As ever, you resort to personal insult and attack and then whine and complain because you get the worst of the exchange. There is no possibility of dealing with you as one would a civilized human being. So it goes. I decline to let your abusive behavior go unchecked. Hence, things get very uncivilized very quickly. No matter to you. As an Israeli, you are inured to it. And that is just the problem. You and your pet boy up there think that being a thug is your birthright.
- roidubouloi
February 8, 2012 at 11:25pm