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TEL AVIV JOURNAL FEBRUARY 25, 2012

All of Western Civilization Could Soon Be Threatened By a Nuclear Iran

BY MARTIN PERETZ

I don’t know whether it’s time just yet for someone, anyone to bomb Iran. But it’s been quite a few years since the wise folk in the strategy profession have been saying “sanctions need time.” This sounds very reassuring unless, of course, Tehran’s nuclear option beats out Tehran’s financial collapse. Just how much economic pain will the world’s self-appointed moral monitors permit even a repellent and perilous Islamic power to endure until all the strings of conscience are played and the will to act is foreclosed. Before you know it, in fact, all of Western civilization will be in the dock … and all of Iran’s highly plausible threats and convincing menace will be right there about to be executed. Yes, make no mistake about who will be the first to be imperiled. 

The Germans waited until January 1942 to detail at the Wannsee Conference their plans for the “final solution to the Jewish problem,” which was actually already in full swing. Looking back through the madcap film images of Nazis as Chaplinesque funny men, the nightmare has aspects of comedy. I suppose there is a parodic aspect to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s fulminations, what with the diminutive little man, his scruffy beard and open-collared white shirt, his formal dress, dining out at the National Council of Churches of Christ, addressing a special convocation convened by Lee Bollinger and lecturing at the Council on Foreign Relations. There is not much to lampoon in his boss, Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, whose views on Israel are, if anything, more belligerent than those of Dr. A’jad and since he is actually supreme leader he should be taken seriously, much more seriously. 

Now, of course, in Israel itself there is a plethora of views, some more hawkish than the mainstream, many (many more than you would think) less hawkish. And the same comparison can be made with the opinions of the cabinet which is also not at all monolithic. No one serious in this argument is completely predictable, except for Haaretz which is influential not because Israelis read its daily Hebrew edition—maybe 25,000 do—but because foreign correspondents are delighted to be confronted every morning with accusations against the Jewish state that somehow make the Holocaust less onerous to European souls. The Jerusalem Post is a somewhat more balanced but a suffusive religious undertone makes the skeptical reader feel he is always arguing with God. (As it happens, The Times of Israel is a new English language web daily created by the Post’s former editor, David Horovitz, a scrupulous journalist who had long chafed under his former owner’s whims.) 

American military interlocutors are now publicly worrying that Israel does not have the capacity to cripple Iran’s nuclear designs on it. Is the inference that, if only it waited some more, the edge of the Israel Defense Forces over the Iranians would somehow increase? One principle of the IDF and, more important in a way, of the intrinsic Zionist idea is that Israel does not want, never wants American men and women to fight for it. That is why Israel is so irritatingly cautious about surrendering the whole West Bank (with half of Jerusalem) to capricious and weapons-wanton Palestinians. Ariel Sharon made that mistake already in Gaza, and the shelling of the Negev is its most dispiriting but lesson-teaching consequence. All the blather about 1967 cease-fire lines in just that … blather. A very tough regime of Israeli surveillance all over the West Bank and on its frontier with Jordan—how long do you think the peaceable kingdom will survive?—will have to be installed before Palestinian independence, so to speak, is attempted. (And that’s only if Arab Palestine isn’t like Egypt and Syria, which it might just be and as I am inclined to think it is destined to be. Alas.) 

That one principle of the IDF, that they actually fight their own battles, is inviolable and inviolate, words with slightly different meanings but one carrying the implication of sacred. And sacred it is. No American force has ever actually done battle for Israel. None. Neither Bibi Netanyahu nor Ehud Barak is about to relinquish that idea and that reality. They may want to borrow some refueling equipment. But they already have enormous numbers of bunker busters, as the best-informed military correspondent in Washington Eli Lake reported just a few days ago. I should note (humbly) that Barack Obama approved the sale of 55 of these 5,000-pound deep penetrators to the Israelis already in 2009, when he had only begun to dicker with them over settlements. These are not all that they have, since their own armaments industry has been producing thousands of lesser and slightly lesser capacity devices. If Israel cannot do it, believe me it won’t. 

So back to all the fretting in Washington. Do the heavy thinkers believe that Israel should just wait for Iran to have a certifiable atomic device capable of hitting any place in Israel? Hey, maybe the Israelis and we Zionists who worry about them should cross our fingers and hope.

I know that most of you don’t cotton to the editorials of the Wall Street Journal. Well, here’s one every responsible citizen should confront. It’s called “Containing Israel on Iran: General Dempsey Sends a Message of U.S. Weakness to Tehran.” 

P.S. I know that some of my readers (and maybe even most of them) do not judge arguments and articles I cite by their historic evidence or their logic but by whether their authors are good guys or bad. But let me try again. Former U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. John Bolton is a certified bad guy, what with him having been George W.’s emissary to the fraudulent international debating society and, what’s more, doing lots of his writing, including this article, in The Washington Times. I challenge anybody to try to make hash of this piece. Ditto for Ilan Berman’s little essay in the same daily on the same day.

P.P.S. Apropos my above reference to David Horovitz and his new e-paper The Times of Israel, Horovitz analyzed the prospects of an Israeli strike against Iran through the prism of Ehud Barak’s relationship with the prime minister, a fortunate bond for both and for the Jewish state primarily.

Martin Peretz is the editor-in-chief emeritus of The New Republic.

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478 comments

Rather obviously, Peretz doesn't actually read the articles he links. Or, if he reads them, he doesn't understand them. From The Times of Israel piece by Horovitz: First and foremost, the unarguable military fact is that Osirak and Syria constitute no precedent whatsoever where Iran is concerned. With the Iranian program, the picture is entirely different. Iran has constructed its nuclear facilities with Osirak serving as the case study in what not to do – built them, therefore, with minimal vulnerability to attack. The potentially dramatic consequences have provoked former Mossad chief Meir Dagan into an ongoing, utterly uncharacteristic public campaign against the “foolish” notion of military intervention except as a very last resort. Israel evidently wants Iran to know that it is potentially poised for action. Israel evidently wants the international community to think that this may be so – in order to ratchet up the sanctions. ________________________ As for the supposedly unimpeachable piece by the creepy Bolton -- yes, an authentic bad guy -- most of it consists of his breathlessly informing us that Iran actually is seeking to build nuclear weapons, as if this is something that only Bolton really understands. Gee, who'd have thunk that? Good thing this keen analyst and experienced hand is on the job. Still, even he manages to conclude that: "Accordingly, even a successful Israeli strike could now be insufficient to halt Iran’s program for an extended period. And certainly, Iran has more than enough strategic warning to prepare its defenses." _______________________ It's really very simple. Nothing short of either harsh sanctions or war with Iran is going to stop its nuclear program. The consequences of either are huge disruption of world oil markets. Are we going to be bombing Iran and buying its oil at the same time? So, if we are willing to to endure the economic pain of this, and with the world economy still fragile, it will be pain aplenty, possibly even another economic depressoin, we don't have to bomb anything. All we have to do is blockade Iran's oil exports. That will be the de facto outcome anyway, but we can achieve the same result with a lot less violence directed toward Iran, less risk of violent reaction against Israel or ourselves, and greater chance of success than with trying to bomb these undergound facilities while financing the Iranian program with oil purchases. Geez, all this hyperventilating stupidity is so tedious.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 12:32am

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"It's really very simple. Nothing short of either harsh sanctions or war with Iran is going to stop its nuclear program. The consequences of either are huge disruption of world oil markets" Roid is entirely correct, and we should all listen to him on this. Put aside for a moment the ad hominem nature Marty so diligently points out; the simple fact is that Israel does not have the military capability to permanently halt Iran's nuclear weapons ambitions. Full stop. They do, however, have the nearly unlimited ability to make the situation worse. And although everyone seems to follow this with, "...the only ones capable of sucessfully halting blah blah blah is the United States", the fact remains that even the US would face enormous challenges in just pushing the date of Iran's atomic weapons back a year or so. By no means would such an attack have guaranteed success, and again it has the potential to make the situation far worse than anything we've seen, Yet a nuclear Iran remains an existential threat to Israel (though I have difficulty understanding how this somehow threatens all of Western civilization, but whatever.) I think the only sane strategy to be adopted is exactly what the President is currently pursuing... widespread economic sanctions and the threat of massive prolonged aerial warfare, while atthe same time quietly engaging in promses of substantial economic rewards in return for proven dismantling of their nuclear weapons programs. Have the events of the past decade shown anything other than the moral imperitive to avoid warfare whenver possible, to try anything and everything to avoid killing? Marty is correct, I believe, in recognizing the gravity of the threat. But it is unconscionable to take that correct analysis and conclude that war is the obvious answer.

- Tristan

February 25, 2012 at 1:00am

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I was born at the end of World War II. Civilization was in danger; it was not a sure thing it would survive. People said, "We should have stood up to Hitler sooner," but we don't know what would have happened. We won the Cold War when all sides of the MAD antagonists were sane enough not to push too hard. Civilization is always in danger, I guess, and the weapons in our backpacks are more and more powerful, so that now the neighborhood punks and gangbangers can bring the house down. I hope somebody is smart enough to make the right decisions. Roid's and Trisan's comments seem sane and informed. I am not smart enough to offer anything better.

- skahn

February 25, 2012 at 1:10am

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What Marty knows but won't state and what Roi doesn't get, is that this has nothing to do with Iran's nuclear programme and everything to do with regime change. Full regime change is the first and last objective.

- IggyPop

February 25, 2012 at 6:46am

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| IggyPop "What Marty knows but won't state and what Roi doesn't get, is that this has nothing to do with Iran's nuclear programme and everything to do with regime change. Full regime change is the first and last objective." I hoped this is about regime change. A democratic Iran will be good for the Iranian people and it wouldn't be a threat to its neighbors. IN fact a democratic Iran could even develop a program of nuclear power for peaceful purposes. I doubt this will happen, though, since many hypocritical leftists like Iggy who,live in democratic countries won't help others who are not as fortunate to also enjoy the fruits of democracy.

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 7:06am

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Sanctions and diplomacy will not stop Iranian attempts to build nuclear bomb. Anybody who thinks so is deceiving himself. A military action seems to be unavoidable at this stage and the only questions is how and when. Israel is already at war with Iran and further escalation is in my opinion unavoidable. The following is an excerpt from Ari Shavit of Haaretz, Peretz's nemesis: "As of now, the military option is proving to be a diplomatic success. It managed to shake the international community out of its apathy and made a definitive contribution to the tightening of the diplomatic and economic siege on Iran. But the time for playing diplomatic games with the military option is drawing to a close. There's a limit to how many times one can cry wolf. There's a point at which a "hold-me-back" policy exhausts itself. And that's a very dangerous point, because suddenly the military option turns into a real option. The Netanyahu-Obama meeting in two weeks will be definitive. If the U.S. president wants to prevent a disaster, he must give Netanyahu iron-clad guarantees that the United States will stop Iran in any way necessary and at any price, after the 2012 elections. If Obama doesn't do this, he will obligate Netanyahu to act before the 2012 elections." The overwhelming view in Israel is that Israel cannot survive with Iran having a nuclear weapon. Period.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 25, 2012 at 8:29am

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Okay, first of all, it's telling that you can't make it two paragraphs without triggering Godwin's Law. If you have to throw up a smokescreen about Nazi Germany to make your point, your point must be pretty damn weak. Second, I don't normally judge TNR articles by their hyperbolic headlines, which I realize are not written by the authors. But you bring in "all of Western civilization" in the body of the piece. So this one, yes, I'm going to judge by the headline, and the headline is ludicrous.

- Dausuul

February 25, 2012 at 8:50am

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From al arabiya. USA bolsters militarily capabilities in the straight of Hormuz for action against Iran in case needed. http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/02/25/196875.html Hum. The article does not mention Israel whatsoever. How does the USA Israel coalition work according to Al Arabiya sources? Or is it USA-Israel-Saudi Arabia coalition? It does mention European countries. The EU (NATO ) will join the action when and if military attacks will shower on Iran. Russia and China will abstain from military action. Reminder is that China, Japan, India get their oil from Iran. Iran has stopped selling oil to European countries, already. To my knowledge we don't get oil from Iran. However we get it from Venezuela an ally of Iran. Already some are benefiting. India pays Iran with rice for oil purchases. If there is war, a big if, China, Japan and India will suffer. Although they can get oil from Russia. As far as Iranian theocratic regime, the Muslim Shia religion is one of martyrdom and suicidal . So I doubt they worry any. Nuclear weapons on their hands is just part of what they consider progress in joining the 21st century. The scenario will include the Iranian missiles in Lebanon(Hizbullah) 50,000, in Gaza (Hamas) 10,000, and in Syria. Thus for logistics in this great battle, if it happens, the USA and European Union, will take care of Iran. While Israel will attend to Hizbullah/Lebanon, Hamas /Gaza, and what is left of Syria. I wonder what the other Muslim countries will do, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Turkey. Some of them are not particularly fond of Iran. And in the latest show of backstabieng a friend, the leader of Hamas declared in Egypt, after prayers of course, his support for the Syrian rebels. He lived all these years in Damascus, and was handsomely supported by the Syrian dictator. It is no longer the Arab Spring, as Al Arabiya said is now the Arab Winter. And as far as we now the Earth continues to turn.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 8:56am

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Who else but Roid accuses Peretz of hyperventilating?! He exaggerates the possible negative economic impact of an Israeli attack on the Iran nukes. There will likely be short-term impacts. But a successful attack may well clear the air of long-term uncertainty and tension over the Middle East about Iran. It may well reduce Iran's ability to influence events in Syria and other places. Oil is fungible, it is produced in many places and doesn't all transit through the Strait of Hormuz. Tankers can be rerouted. Why not cripple theocratic Iran before it becomes too powerful? Tristan agrees that "Marty is correct, I believe, in recognizing the gravity of the threat." so why is he unwilling to take meaningful action to stop nuclear Iran now? Sanctions and diplomacy have failed. And I question the morality of starving ordinary Iranians in a futile effort to coerce the religious fanatics who rule from Tehran. Some military battles change the course of history. An Israeli raid on the Iranian nukes could well do that, especially with US acquiescence and support.

- amidut

February 25, 2012 at 9:11am

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"The Netanyahu-Obama meeting in two weeks will be definitive. If the U.S. president wants to prevent a disaster, he must give Netanyahu iron-clad guarantees that the United States will stop Iran in any way necessary and at any price, after the 2012 elections. If Obama doesn't do this, he will obligate Netanyahu to act before the 2012 elections." So, it's blackmail, is it? Attack Iran, Obama, or Bibi will redouble his efforts to get you out of office? Shavit's no doubt well-informed rephrasing of the Netanyahu government's intentions is quite illuminating though hardly a revelation. This sort of article deserves much wider dissemination in the US, so that Americans can better understand and appreciate the imperiousness of Israeli demands. It's a shame that so little from the Israeli press finds its way into the US media, because as a rule, it's much more honest than the drivel with which we're generally presented.

- ccarrick@vzavenue.net-old

February 25, 2012 at 9:11am

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Martin referred to Ahmadenijad as doctor. But he is a civil engineer and teacher, his family was poor. Now Basher al Assad is an ophtalmologist , used to practice in England. Netanyahu has a degree in architecture from MIT. Attended school of management at MIT. And studied political science at Harvard. Hey, Obama is a Harvard graduate too, a lawyer though, also Columbia University. We have to rest assured. The destiny is in the hands of all these college graduates. Bashar is getting out of hand but somehow he will have to reason and maybe reconsider.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 9:17am

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Martin referred to Ahmadenijad as doctor. But he is a civil engineer and teacher, his family was poor. Now Basher al Assad is an ophtalmologist , used to practice in England. Netanyahu has a degree in architecture from MIT. Attended school of management at MIT. And studied political science at Harvard. Hey, Obama is a Harvard graduate too, a lawyer though, also Columbia University. We have to rest assured. The destiny is in the hands of all these college graduates. Bashar is getting out of hand but somehow he will have to reason and maybe reconsider.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 9:17am

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Xenophon I gave above the report in Al Arabiya the Saudi paper. Now same report on YNET, the Israeli centrist paper. Haaretz is of the left. Jerusalem Post is of the right. I am neither of the left nor of the right but all the contrary (Luis Echevarria Alvarez Mexican president in the 70's) http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4194482,00.html You have to consider your sources. Haaretz is anti Israel. The new York times is anti Israel. What is Al Arabiya? What is Al Jazeera ? What are you Xeno let the phone ring? It is all a mistery.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 9:33am

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Arnon - Iran is a democracy, of sorts. Certainly, they have more control over their own economic affairs than we do (sanctions aside) and I live in a parliamentary democracy or Bankocracy, as it is now. This isn't about democracy - you support much more undemocratic regimes. This isn't about nukes - Pakistan is much more unstable and represents a far more immediate nuke threat. This isn't about human rights - Saudi Arabia? Take your pick. This is about removing the Islamic revolutionaries for good; opening the second largest reserves of gas and third largest reserves of crude to western corporations; removing the nuisance that is any independent, non- Dollar denominated trade of crude and as always, China/Russia.

- IggyPop

February 25, 2012 at 9:36am

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If Israel is determined to attack Iran, although the likelihood that it can put a big dent in Iran's nuclear program is low and it may suffer grievous losses both in the air and from retaliation, we should make every effort to restrain it and certainly not assist in any way. We should keep as far away as possible. Israel's likely futile war with Iran must not become our war. lIf the blowback mushrooms, the likely result will be that the UNSC, including the US, will finally decide that the future of Palestine and the borders of Israel must be settled for good and all lest the continued turmoil produce an ever-widening war, and Iran will then be prevented from developing nuclear weapons in the bargain. A silver lining? The nuclear weapons in Pakistan are already a worse threat than nuclear weapons in Iran. Iran has a government, at least until the west destroys. Pakistan barely does, and the government is heavily infiltrated by religious extremists. There is a real possibility not of official Pakistani use of nuclear arms, because no nation wants to be destroyed in retaliation, but of loss of control of those arms. That is a threat to western civilization in a way that Iran is not and is not going to be unless we stupidly try to take it apart. These military fantasies of power that does not exist are an endless source of trouble. The hawks always think that everyone else lacks their clear vision and will. The reality is that they have no vision and are always in the grip of fantasies about what war will gain. Incredibly, no matter how many times their wars go awry, they never, ever learn. We successfully invaded Panama and Grenada? NATO forced Serbia to back down? Serbia? With the military machine designed to face down the Soviet Union? When the preponderance of force and means is absolutely overwhelming, we achieve victory. But we couldn't defeat Vietnam, we couldn't subdue Afghanistan or Iraq. The United States, Britain, and Russia TOGETHER defeated Germany to the point of unconditional surrender. Yet the military power fantasies continue unabated.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 9:37am

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Xenophon, who is perpetrating blackmail here? Iran, which threatens Israel with genocide? Or Israel, which is trying to defend itself? Your moral inversion is contemptible.

- amidut

February 25, 2012 at 9:38am

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makover First Haaretz is anti Israel . Does not talk by any rate, for the overwhelming majority of Israelis. Also Iran is in war with Israel, not the other way around. Israel just defends itself. The scenario is developing that the USA and European Union will take care of Iran, if necessary war would develop. Israel will attend to Hizbullah/Lebanon, Hamas /Gaza, and what's left of Syria. The latter being taken care by Turkey and the United Nations (gulp)

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 9:43am

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"Tankers can be rerouted." From where to where exactly? How is the bulk of the oil produced by the Gulf States going to get shipped without the Persian Gulf? Notice how they are called "gulf states," as in Persian Gulf, as in Iran, as their dependence on that waterway is their common salient characteristic? 20% of the world's oil passes through the Strait of Hormuz. The price impact of even a 5% decline in output would be enormous.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 9:49am

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Don't be absurd, Amidut, Iran is not going to attack Israel with nuclear weapons any more than Khrushchev ever made good on his threat to "bury us." If Israel sees it differently and wants to take action against Iran, that is Israel's business. It is the business of the US government to protect US interests--and being party to an attack on Iran that will drive it into the arms of China in not in our interests. If Israel wants the complete autonomy to attack Iran, then let it foreswear the subsidies, the support and all else it gets from the US. Then it can do what it wants and take the consequences entirely by itself. Israel, I see, is acquiring another Dolphin-class submarine from Germany. I'm sure Israel will have an SLBM deterrent long before Iran might ever acquire any nuclear weapons capability. That will be more than sufficient deterrent for any conceivable Iranian threat ASSUMING that Iran does ever acquire nuclear weapons.

- ccarrick@vzavenue.net-old

February 25, 2012 at 9:51am

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"Israel just defends itself." Let it. Our job is to defend ourselves. If attacking Iran at this time is not in our interest, as it is not, then we should not be blackmailed into participating.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 9:54am

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Israel already has an SLBM deterrent, and thermonuclear weapons, the H-bomb. If Israel tries to twist the arm of the US, maybe Obama will at least learn something about how arm-twisting is done. That would be useful.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 9:56am

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IggyPop I don't think so. Did our war in Iraq opened the oil fields to western companies? Nooo. The Iran case does not fit your analysis. roidubouloi Please shorten your comments. I have told you so. And stop posting your irrational obsolete Obsession with international institutions. The UNSC is as inept as your balling camel manure. I told you, and repeat, your Galicianer dishonesty of a self hatred Jew , is how you put it?, tedious. Why are you a self hatred Jew. What bad experience did you have in the past. Did an Israeli, did a Jew, raped your mother or something? roidubouloi, king du rotten baloney. Blah blah blah international illegality of liberated territories. Ha ha ha the UNSC will impose peace between Israel and the Pals. Like Don Quijote, he is sooo demented that imagines wind mills are threatening giants. roi needs professional attention, he is a menace to himself.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 10:01am

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"Tristan agrees that "Marty is correct, I believe, in recognizing the gravity of the threat." so why is he unwilling to take meaningful action to stop nuclear Iran now?" Perhaps he doesn't feel the heat of the nukes the same way Israelis do. It's nice and cool where he lives.

- noga1

February 25, 2012 at 10:03am

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Xenophon You poor soul, there is a strong USA Israel alliance. Again USA and EU take care of Iran, read my posted sources. Israel will take care of Hizbullah/Lebanon, Hamas /Gaza. Xeno please answer the phone.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 10:10am

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Jamie - not entirely true but you do have a point. Deals in Iraq for all the major players have been problematic. But this is certainly better than the none access they had before. Kurdistan represents a good opportunity, which wasn't there pre liberation. http://drippingoil.blogspot.com/2012/02/exxon-mobil-xom-flex-muscles-in-iraq.html And there's huge deals in progress and more on the table. You'll find this article useful. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2011/12/2011122813134071641.html So, profits and opportunity post liberation are enormous, despite the difficulties a botched occupation has brought. We see even more predictable revenue opportunity for the western companies in Libya with its highly prized light crude. See here http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/sep/02/next-war-libya-one-for-oil Notably, large deals with Chinese and Russian companies went to the wayside, post liberation. To pretend that western involvement in this area has nothing to do with it's critical energy resources is to ignore a century of history and be wilfully blind of the peak crude world we live in.

- IggyPop

February 25, 2012 at 10:13am

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I think that someone needs to send a copy of this piece to the Administration. I do not see the urgency in our State Department and Military that the Israeli's see and think we will be caught badly off guard soon. I know that our President has been in discussions with President Netanyahu, and our Generals are talking to their Generals, Diplomats with Diplomats, but that America has not put forward any action for a potential conflict with Iran from Israel or the US. This attack to take out Iran's Nuclear Program has been in the works for about 5 years now, and no one has pulled the trigger. Lot's of shenanigans in these last 5 years, but no real serious or credible plan. However, Israel has put a deadline on the need for action and it appears to be June. And there has been activity that seems to suggest this is realistic. But America is not preparing for this attack and is not getting out in front of this like it needs to. Our Secretary of State should be out in the arab world telling the Shiites that an attack on Iran is unavoidable and that this is not because of their religion, but becuase of their actions. The Afghanis are rioting right now because we accidently burned a few Korans while getting rid of some terorist trash. And no one is telling the Shiites that Iran is putting themselves into the line of fire? If there is a potential attack coming, America should be on the offensive against Hizbollah and Hamas. There should be top level communication with these terorist and it should be frank. We are getting ready for an attack on Iran and you are a target ahead of this mission. They have a choice, pursue their 'Charity' activities and turn over their weapons, or face attack. Let them know that we are with the opposition in Syria and anything we find there when the rocks are turned over they will be held accountable for. The world is a different place than it was 10 years ago and we will not allow these continued attacks. And the administration needs to deal with the fall-out of an Israeli attack that is coming. The Arab community has always said the existance of Israel is the root cause of all troubles in the Middle East. How about letting Saudi Arabia or Turkey tell the world how they want to deal with Iran? The Arab world after an Israeli attack is going to tell the Us that we told you so, Israel is the problem. America needs to be telling them now that Iran is getting attacked in a few months by countries that are threatened by it. It was 10 years ago that President Bush gave the Axis of Evil speech. Looking back 10 years, he was pretty accurate in what these rogue states would do, and he built up a pretty good response to terrorism and the 9/11/01 attacks. North Korea went nuclear and started proliferating their weapons to Syria. Iran has not stopped their pursuit, and we know what happened in Iraq. Iran doesn't realize how bad off they are. Not even the Russians are interested in their losing cause. Their only friend, Hugo Chavez, is in Cuba as he dies of cancer. Their people want to kill the Ayatollah, and replace their theocracy with a democracy, and the only power the Supreme Leader has is muderous thugs. America needs to start acting like they have a plan and a deadline. It's been 10 years now. Few thought 4 years ago when John Glenn was singing about Bombing Iran that this problem would push out to 2012. But it looks like Israel will take the action that the world keeps ignoring.

- CRS9TNR

February 25, 2012 at 10:16am

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roidubouloi Maybe Israel has also a neutron bomb. This Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew, is so anti Israel . Posting lies and venom is in his nature. But why do I have to take care of him? Because in my ways a feel sorry for this old demented international illegal liberated territories obsessed fruit fly.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 10:17am

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Also, major energy and arms contracts for the Chinese and Russians were lost in Libya. Replaced by western companies. Liberating it's very valuable light crude represents a huge opportunity for the usual suspects. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/sep/02/next-war-libya-one-for-oil To pretend that western, or any involvement, in this area has nothing to with critical energy resources is to wilfully ignore a century of history; the petrodollar and peak oil. I would think those aspects have some input here, wouldn't you?

- IggyPop

February 25, 2012 at 10:17am

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You are in idiot, Jaime. And not even a useful idiot.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 10:25am

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You are quite right IggyPop. The State Dept. Never change. Remember John Foster Dulles, the powerful blunt Secretary of State during the Eisenhower administration. He said something like this to answer critics, the business of USA, is to protect and advance USA business. Hillary just says the same and the same. And I don't find anything wrong with it. The cheaper gas is at the pump the merrier. Although it is being driven up recently. Now is $4 a gallon, soon to be $5 a galling. They partly blame Iran stopping oil sales to the Europeans. But speculation is the name of the game.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 10:27am

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roidubouloi I am suspecting tender feelings from you towards me. You know my late wife was Galicianer father and Hungarian mother. The mother is still alive, 98 years old. But seriously roi, why don't you use your brain to reason. You sound like a lost camel ass. It is embarrassing for a Galicianer self hatred Jew posting such silly nonsense. Grow up. There is still a chance even at your age.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 10:35am

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Iran has an input here but the price is being inexorably pushed up by the Trillions in central bank liquidity. Literally an unprecedented tsunami of liquidity over the last few months alone.

- IggyPop

February 25, 2012 at 10:36am

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IggyPop Please explain. Please expand your comment with data.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 10:38am

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CRS's description of all-out war with Iran is useful. Not because it is realistic -- same fantasies of non-existent power to force events that are the drug of the right-wing -- but because it points out clearly that this would not be just a one-day affair, bomb and go home, but likely a drawn out and escalating conflict that quickly or gradually engulfs a large portion of the Middle East. As for noga's insistence on Israel's supposedly unique existential dilemma, we in the United States lived with the threat of Soviet nuclear arms for decades. When I was a little kid, bomb shelters were the rage and we had periodic atomic weapons civil defense drills where we had to hide under our desks at school. Laughable, to be sure, and they stopped once people began to realize how ridiculous they were. But the threat was real and we lived with it. Iran is not going to use nuclear arms against Israel at the cost of its own complete destruction. That isn't even what this is about. The real utility of nuclear arms turns out to be to create redlines, zones where it becomes too dangerous to press a nuclear-armed opponent lest miscalculation and escalation lead to a nuclear exchange that was never intended, sort of in the manner that World War I began. The threat to Israel is not in being nuked, but in Iran using nuclear weapons to create a sphere of influence and control that extends to the Mediterranean and Saudi Arabia, undermining western willingness to take risks or endure losses (chiefly economic) to support Israel. The hype is about a bomb on Tel Aviv. The real fear is that the west may throw Israel under a bus if Iran becomes too powerful and makes life sufficiently uncomfortable for us. Hence, Israel threatens to throw us under a bus today unless we do something. Of course, Israel would be more secure if it were not diplomatically isolated. But a few apartments in Jerusalem and appeasement of settler and religious nuts is far more important than working to end that isolation. So much for the genuine belief of the Israeli government in existential threat. When the going gets tough, the tough build apartments. It is hard to judge, but I don't think Obama is going to be stampeded.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 10:43am

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http://www.zerohedge.com/news/and-nothing-else-matters

- IggyPop

February 25, 2012 at 10:47am

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CRS9TNR: Netanyahu is a prime minister, not president. _____________ Who needs a useful idiot when there is a roi around to fill that job? He is the quintessential useful idiot. And this, btw, is not really an impeachment of his moral character. Useful idiots are usually considered saintly and lovers of humanity; though they support a malignant cause, they naively believe that cause to be a force for good. They are also literalists, characterized by their total impregnability to a different point of view. Thus you have a perfect true believer, as I said, a saint. _________ "Hence, Israel threatens to throw us under a bus" (roi) Is this a quote from the most recent and improved edition of "The Protocols of the wise elders of Zion"? See what I mean when I say roi is a useful idiot? Whose cause is best served by this kind of statement?

- noga1

February 25, 2012 at 10:51am

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""Tristan agrees that "Marty is correct, I believe, in recognizing the gravity of the threat." so why is he unwilling to take meaningful action to stop nuclear Iran now? Perhaps he doesn't feel the heat of the nukes the same way Israelis do. It's nice and cool where he lives." Or, Noga, I am in agreement with Dagan and many others who feel a massive attack against Iran would not only have very little chance of success but would make a bad situation worse. Just so we're clear, I do not think allowing Iran to have nuclear weapons is acceptable. Relaiable intelligence indicating they have completed even one is casus belli, for both Israel and the United States. But they do not have weapons yet, and it is not too late for sanctions to work, and all options should be exhausted before undertaking the slaughter of tens of thousands, which is what the military action to destroy their nuclear program and affect regime change would, at a minimum, require. You are correct in one respect, though. It is nice and cool here in New England this time of year.

- Tristan

February 25, 2012 at 10:52am

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Pity poor noga. A moron to the last. Understands nothing at all other than the state of her own curdled bile. The one thing that a fanatic like noga cannot abide is any sort of truth about Israel. Sends her into a frenzy of spitting venom. Here is what Horovitz had to say in The Times of Israel, linked by Peretz: "This is not the behavior of a nation that has decided on military action; it is the behavior of a nation seeking to sound the alarm. Israel evidently wants Iran to know that it is potentially poised for action. Israel evidently wants the international community to think that this may be so – in order to ratchet up the sanctions. [As in, you stop Iran ASAP or we will take action with potentially disastrous consequences for you, not that we want to of course, but we have may no choice but to damage you to save ourselves.] All those well-sourced articles, with their tantalizing aroma of insider information, are adding to that impression. Which, presumably, is precisely what those anonymous security sources who spoke to those authors want to achieve: Bolster the sense that Israel feels it may soon have to resort to military action… precisely in order that Israel does not have to resort to military action." ___________________ Israeli hawks and wannabes like noga would like nothing better than for the US to take the risks entailed by starting a war with Iran so that Israel can have the war while, hopefully, avoiding both immediate retaliation and diplomatic blowback. Israel wants US shelter, as usual, from the consequences of policies. Not really that hard to understand, except for one us utterly dense as noga. Hence Israel tries to twist the arm of the US to do its bidding. In the restrained language that is required of him, this is just what Horovitz is telling us. What is served by calling this spade for exactly what it is? Without being stampeded by Israeli hype and the hysteria of Peretz and his little band of equally hysterical acolytes, a clear understanding of where US interests lie. Because that's where we are, most of us, and that's where this magazine is published, and that is in our interest, in not taking unnecessary losses to enable Israel's mini-empire building.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 11:07am

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RdB, "The threat to Israel is not in being nuked, but in Iran using nuclear weapons to create a sphere of influence and control that extends to the Mediterranean and Saudi Arabia" Yes--good point. More time spent considering the implications of strategic nuclear parity--or something close to it--in the ME would be a much better use of resources. What activities would Iran engage in below the nuclear threshold if they had nuclear weapons? Perhaps step up their support to the Shia in Saudi, Bahrain, and Lebanon, but, of course, that's an issue because they are so badly treated in the first two and still semi-disenfranchised in the third. Perhaps ramped-up support to Hamas, though given its change of uniform, that's questionable--at least in the near-mid term. What are the economic ramifications that you have in mind?

- ccarrick@vzavenue.net-old

February 25, 2012 at 11:07am

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What I have in mind, chiefly, is the ability of a nuclear-armed Iran to hold sway over Saudi Arabia and hence become a near oil monopsonist, controlling the price of oil and the the spigot in order both to gain wealth and gain influence over the geopolitics of the west. No doubt with the goal of isolating and damaging or destroying Israel, but not by nuking it. Over the long-term, I don't think that Iran would actually succeed at this. But it would definitely succeed in loosening western tolerance for Israeli ambitions. In any case, starting a war with Iran today is not going to solve the problem, tactically or strategically. The right-wingnuts keep thinking that we just got the execution a bit wrong in the last war. If we have just one more chance, we can get it right and demonstrate to the world that anybody who fucks with us is dead. Not going well.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 11:14am

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Roi's rue and cry will read juvenile, " Ah but for some apartments in Jerusalem!" Yeah, that's the ticket. Like a watchmaker's dissatisfactions that the machine has an inconvenient affliction.

- jacko

February 25, 2012 at 11:17am

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Roi - you're bang on. Nukes aren't a threat in themselves, they allow you to reach further with your conventional capability but I think a SA armed with the latest American hardware would be more than enough of a match. I think that is over done sometimes.

- IggyPop

February 25, 2012 at 11:21am

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I really enjoyed this bit from noga: "They are also literalists, characterized by their total impregnability to a different point of view." Uh, you can actually characterize the stream of unedited stupidity that emerges from the unhinged consciousness of JaimeChuch as "a different point of view?" Come to think of it, I believe you can. Because you are just as unhinged as he is, but a bit better at self-editing in order to conceal your pathology. That is to say, somewhat better compensated, for the moment. What is it about Peretz that attracts every wacko in the place to come out of hiding and display his or her full-blown derangement?

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 11:23am

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xenophon: "So, it's blackmail, is it? Attack Iran, Obama, or Bibi will redouble his efforts to get you out of office?" No it's not! It's a statement of fact: If you don't do it we will. The administration is demanding that Israel will not defend itself as to not spoil Obama's reelection, not the other way around. It is pressuring Israel on a regular basis, diplomatically and through the press. "Don't be absurd, Amidut, Iran is not going to attack Israel with nuclear weapons any more than Khrushchev ever made good on his threat to "bury us." Jews have a long and painful experience with regimes whose ideology includes destruction of the Jews. Being a citizen of a superpower you might take it lightly but Israelis take it very seriously. roid: "Israel just defends itself." Let it. Our job is to defend ourselves. If attacking Iran at this time is not in our interest, as it is not, then we should not be blackmailed into participating." Damn right, so don't kvetch when Israel tells you that is going to do it. If you don't like it, then do it yourself. Tristan: "I am in agreement with Dagan and many others who feel a massive attack against Iran would not only have very little chance of success but would make a bad situation worse." I think everybody who quotes Dagan does not realize that Dagan's objection is not if but when. Dagan himself admits and stated that much, that if the sanctions don't work military strike will be required. He is of the opinion that there is enough time, but there are others who are in majority in Israeli intelligence, both Mossad and Aman that think that the time is running out. I agree with Noga, roid statements are like quotes from the Protocols: "If Israel tries to twist the arm of the US"-"Hence, Israel threatens to throw us under a bus" and other such gems. Sad.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 25, 2012 at 11:27am

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I must have touched a nerve, roi. All it takes is the (easily supportable) suggestion that you are nothing more or less than a useful idiot, and look at your downpour of invective. For a semi professional politician you are very easy to manipulate. Whose cause is being served when roi states: ""Hence, Israel threatens to throw us under a bus"? I can imagine something in the same line being declared by the American anti-interventionists before the US decided to join the war against Hitler: "Hence, world Jewry threatens to throw us under a bus".

- noga1

February 25, 2012 at 11:33am

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That's right, jacko. The Israeli machine has an affliction that is very inconvenient for us. Given that it is also morally unsupportable, we ought to go on about our business in our own interest and not enable machine to inconvenience us and our interests. Israel claims the unfettered right to pursue its interests without regard to the obligations of international law. We ought not do likewise, but we surely should pursue our interests within its bounds. Clarity about the ways, the many ways, in which the interests of the US and Israel diverge is essential to that task. And it is precisely that clarity that the friends of Israel cannot abide, the reason why Israel deploys a lobby like no other to work US policy directly within the Congress. Because they know perfectly well that our own interests, including in the case of Iran, are not such that we would do what Israel wants in their service. The very moment that the divergence is pointed out, you can therefore count on them to immediately to turn on their propaganda full-bore, their name-calling, their accusations of anti-Semitism, the whole shebang. If nothing else, they hope to drown out the point with sheer noise. In the general sphere of American public life, they are pretty successful at it (not a surprise given the many implausible things that many Americans accept), although I think there is considerable unease. Here at TNR, the players at this game are too stupid and/or obviously unhinged to do much more than make a lot of noise. It is an annoying distraction, but not much more than that. They are absolutely hopeless when it comes to actually saying anything persuasive.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 11:34am

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"I really enjoyed this bit from noga:" Only of course the bitter irony is that roi's subsequent wrath and fury convey anything but enjoyment. It's not enough to SAY you enjoy something. You need to SHOW it. If, instead, you respond with strong invective and fantastic accusations one can't help but be very sceptical about that opening flourish.

- noga1

February 25, 2012 at 11:36am

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Ah, self hating Jew and the protocols of zion on a Roi vs Spinesters thread. Brings back fond memories. Entertaining stuff lads.

- IggyPop

February 25, 2012 at 11:38am

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Says makover, "Damn right, so don't kvetch when Israel tells you that is going to do it. If you don't like it, then do it yourself." No need to kvetch. The US simply has to use its power, including the sway it has over Israel, in its own interest. Unlike you, I don't consider incessant whining a viable geopolitical strategy. Yup, Israel is telling us, if you don't bomb Iran, we will. Pick your poison. Quite clearly, if we thought it was in our interest to bomb Iran, we would. That's what we do. We're a superpower. If we don't, we won't. If we thought it was in our interest to allow Israel to bomb Iran, we would. No arm-twisting or threats required. If we think neither is in our interest, then it is incumbent upon us to use our power, in its various forms, in our own interest, including to restrain Israel if that is what is in our interest. And if we don't choose to restrain Israel, or don't want to pay the cost of that, the thing to do is to get completely out of the way and let Israel bear as much of the consequences while doing our best to minimize the consequences for ourselves. Kvetching has nothing to do with it, except for professional kvetchers like you.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 11:43am

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Gee, noga, once again you display that you are literal to the point of blithering idiocy and have no sense of irony at all. Same old. You are ever you. _____________________ It is sort of fun, iggy, isn't it? The thing I really do enjoy about this is that it is so easy to shoot the morons full of holes in this forum, as I once said here, riding backwards, under the horse, while blindfolded. In the real political world, there are endless constraints, one is always struggling as if wading, neck deep, through a swamp of thick goo. Here you can just let 'er rip and give the vicious, ignorant, bigoted boobs, the plague of our political life, their due, no holds barred. It is ever refreshing.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 11:51am

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"It is sort of fun, iggy, isn't it?" The ever reptilian roi sidling up to an anti-Israel non-Jew. So what else is new? Absolutely cringe-worthy.

- noga1

February 25, 2012 at 12:05pm

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Makover, xenophon: "So, it's blackmail, is it? Attack Iran, Obama, or Bibi will redouble his efforts to get you out of office?" Makover: "No it's not! It's a statement of fact: If you don't do it we will. The administration is demanding that Israel will not defend itself as to not spoil Obama's reelection, not the other way around. It is pressuring Israel on a regular basis, diplomatically and through the press." No, the US administration is demanding that if Israel wants to embark on a policy that is NOT in the interests of the US, it should expect to do so on its own and not involve us in the blowback from its adventures. If what Israel is doing is, as you say, simply asserting its right to take action, then what is it waiting for? Why the extended dialogue with the USG and involvement in the US political process? Answer: Because Israel wants assurance that the US will share the disastrous consequences with them and continue to subsidize the Israeli state no matter what it does in contravention of US interests. Thanks but no thanks, Makover.

- ccarrick@vzavenue.net-old

February 25, 2012 at 12:12pm

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02/25/2012 - 9:36am EDT | IggyPop “Arnon - Iran is a democracy, of sorts. Certainly, they have more control over their own economic affairs than we do (sanctions aside) and I live in a parliamentary democracy or Bankocracy, as it is now.” Your use of the term “Bankocracy” (the terms isn’t even euphonious) shows the contempt you have for democracy. Moreover your comment that Iran is a “democracy of sorts” is contemptible. It’s “the of sorts” that gives you away as a standard issue anti-democrat. From the “of sorts” point of view National Socialist Germany was a ‘democracy” as were many State Socialist States from the Soviet Union to its satellites. Your view shows a lot of contempt for the Iranian people who risked their lives to condemn the sort of “democracy” Iran is. It’s up to the people in a country to decide what kind of government they want to live under. The people in Libya revolted against Kaddafi and with the support of the West rid themselves of a despicable tyrant. If in the process China lost some contracts, tough luck. You hate living in a “bankcracy’ as you call it, but don’t mind other people living in “plutocracy” Khadafy ruled by buying off people and foreign governments and institutions including the London School of Economics. The people there too lived in a Bankcracy (as does Iran) though their bankers are China and Russia. Yet, there is a BIG difference between a truly democratic Bankracy and a “democratic of sorts” Bnakracy: You are safe in your apartment while they are not. No State agency will come knocking at your door at 4 in the morning and take you to a torture cell. Why would you not wish the minimum of protection from State terror to these people? Do you hate Libyans and Iranians that much? This isn’t about “revolutionaries” Islamic or otherwise: this is about the fact that you would support tyranny in the name of anti-democratic “revolution.” It’s strange that you should subscribe to an American magazine that stands for democratic principles.

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 12:14pm

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"Why the extended dialogue with the USG and involvement in the US political process?" It's called diplomacy Xenophon.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 25, 2012 at 12:21pm

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(Continued) You also say that : “This isn't about democracy - you support much more undemocratic regimes. This isn't about nukes - Pakistan is much more unstable and represents a far more immediate nuke threat. This isn't about human rights - Saudi Arabia? Take your pick.” You are wrong there. No one at TNR supports these regimes. Your reduction of all social activity to economic matters makes you an economic determinist. Those who believe in economic determinism rarely give liberal social values a second thought. Saudi oil is important that is a fact. I suspect though that if the US were to sponsor regime change in Saudi Arabia you would make the same argument that we were after Saudi oil. You are also mistaken about Pakistan. There is awareness of the danger the Pakistani’s Nukes pose to the world. This is the problem with economic determinism whatever one does is explained in economic terms.

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 12:25pm

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"The thing I really do enjoy about this is that it is so easy to shoot the morons full of holes in this forum, as I once said here, riding backwards, under the horse, while blindfolded." Under the horse is a good place for a hemo roid to be . Why did he moved the gun to his left hand? To shoot himself in the other foot!

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 25, 2012 at 12:28pm

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"It's called diplomacy Xenophon." Well, yes, exactly. But to what end? If Israel is merely announcing action it intends to take autonomously, what need for diplomacy is there? Answer: To wheedle, pressure, arm-twist, and/or BLACKMAIL the USG into supporting it, that's what--after all, that's what diplomacy really is. You are refuting your own argument that all Israel is doing is announcing its own actions.

- ccarrick@vzavenue.net-old

February 25, 2012 at 12:34pm

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roidubouloi The Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew, has not explained why he is so h hateful towards Israel. He was in Paris dans la rue du boulois, not far from the Louvre. That is why he imagines himself an expert in international affairs. His only obsession is what he repeats ad nuseum, illegality of liberated territories. He wants to hurt the Palestinians. He wants Israel to stop giving jobs to Palestinian construction workers. He calls himself roi (king). Oops that explains it all. King du stinky baloney.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 12:35pm

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It is apparent that the threat of a nuclear Iran is rising. I would hardly credit - or criticize - Peretz for writing an article that examines this real issue. The thing that is so intriguing about almost any piece of writing that the now irrelevant Peretz publishes nowadays is how his articles have, like poisonous vine around a trestle, hostile remarks to some [all] of his readers, how he feels the compulsion to include a series of self rationalizing P.S., P.S.S. and P.S.S.S's to chisel for the last word against criticism that, from his rocker and btw nurse visits, he knows will be coming about such distasteful and discredited specimens as John Bolton and David Horowitz. The level of emotional volatility & dysfunction, combined with a very weird and unhealthy and acknowledged dose of self recognized sociopathy with his anticipated readers is very creepy and not even funny. Wow. I wish that if there are any individuals who still love this man - jaimechuch or noga perhaps - they would put a warm blanket over his stooped shoulders, feed him his mush and just listen to his stories about the Old Days, when he taught all those soon to be famous students and people listened to him.

- MrCookie1

February 25, 2012 at 12:40pm

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Arnon - I'm laughing here and bored, hence the reply. Please rest assured that I wholly support any democratic change for the better in Iran, as I do in my own Bankocracy, which is a term coined by respected commentators and widely used here, accurate as well. But wow, the invective. What do you do to relax? Chew glass? Noga - "non Jew"?

- IggyPop

February 25, 2012 at 12:41pm

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"If Israel is merely announcing action it intends to take autonomously, what need for diplomacy is there?" I am not refuting anything. It is within international norms and obligations to discuss with your allies possible outcomes, risks and ramifications of actions or inaction. That is not "arm twisting". That is responsible approach. The fact that you consider it "arm twisting" exposes your biases.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 25, 2012 at 12:45pm

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"But wow, the invective." No invective, just a critique of your ideas such as they are.

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 12:50pm

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"The fact that you consider it "arm twisting" exposes your biases." Does it? I had no idea.

- ccarrick@vzavenue.net-old

February 25, 2012 at 12:52pm

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I certainly wouldn't like to consider myself an economic determinist, the world is far to complex for such a simple model but I do think it economic factors should be included and certainly not excluded when thinking about such issues. I don't claim ownership of any ideas, just stuff I've read that makes logical sense. Like asking the obvious questions such as who benefits and by how much? There's lots of factors at play here with multiple actors all with their own agenda. My list of elements here are not intended to be comprehensive.

- IggyPop

February 25, 2012 at 12:56pm

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I am grateful to Martin Peretz for introducing me to "The Times of Israel.' I hadn't seen this paper's website before.

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 1:06pm

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"Does it? I had no idea." Good! So now you know.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 25, 2012 at 1:07pm

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IggyPop "I certainly wouldn't like to consider myself an economic determinist,...." Perhaps not, but you write (the article I cited, is an example) as if you believed in a pretty vulgar form of economic determinism.

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 1:08pm

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http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/02/24/lawrence-solomon-israels-oil-diplomacy/ "...Now Israel’s periphery strategy is back big time, thanks largely to hydrocarbon diplomacy. Apart from a major oil find in its interior, Israel has known gas reserves of some $130-billion in the Mediterranean, with some estimating that twice as much will materialize as exploration continues. Israel’s Mediterranean neighbour, the island nation of Cyprus, is also discovering immense amounts of gas in the sea bed adjacent to Israel’s. The two are now developing their gas jointly, with plans to export it to Europe or Asia or both. Greece, which may have more oil and gas in its extensive Mediterranean waters than either, is now talking of joining Cyprus and Israel in joint ventures. The sea change in the attitude of Greece and Cyprus is breathtaking. ... And as part of its southern diplomacy, Israel recently established an East African alliance with predominantly Christian Kenya, Tanzania, Ethiopia and South Sudan designed to fend off Iran and Islamist terrorism. Israel’s stock in East Africa is particularly high because of its role in gaining independence for South Sudan, the world’s newest state. Over much of South Sudan’s half-century struggle for independence, Israel almost single-handedly armed and supported the black African rebels against what was widely recognized as genocide and enslavement perpetrated by the Arabic rulers based in northern Sudan. In recognition of Israel’s role in its liberation, the leader of South Sudan made Israel his first foreign stop following independence and promised to establish his country’s embassy in Israel’s capital of Jerusalem, the only country in the world to do so. Israel’s military help will continue to be needed in East Africa. The oil-rich South Sudan may well find itself at war again with the north and East African countries may find themselves subject to terrorist attack, particularly since South Sudan plans to pipe its oil eastward to ports in Kenya and Ethiopia instead of north through Sudan, which relies on South Sudan’s oil. ..." Just wanted to interject some good news into the current obsession over a nuclear Iran. Iran is already an economic hostage of China, who recently announced a joint venture for LNG railway in Israel from Eilat to Haifa. The Saudis are still considering an oil pipeline west, perhaps along the Sinai border, in order to offset threats to the Straits of Hormuz. As for those who actually believe the Ayatollahs of Shi'a Iran are as rational as the former Soviet Union? Really? Shi'a Ayatollahs have spent more than two hundred years, since the Safavids ruled then-Persia, developing the religious doctrine that Jews are a species of bacteria requiring extermination. The USA has treaty agreements with the Saudis and Gulf States to provide the USA nuclear umbrella. The Saudis know that the Ayatollahs of Iran want Shi'ite control over Mecca and Medina. All this blame Israel First re: nuclear Iran, is just a lot of spin. Having tens of millions of Shi'a whose 'celebration' of Ashura has men publicly flagellating their backs into bloody wounds is rather frightening to everyone else, not just "Western Civilization". Israel has shale oil reserves that equal all of Saudi's proven reserves. Federally owned lands in Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana have FOUR times Saudi reserves in undeveloped shale oil, a two hundred year supply of oil at current USA consumption. Make Iran irrelevant by moving past the "peak oil" myth. What would be more exquisite than having this Shi'ite millenialist theocracy a complete economic hostage of the g-dless, pork-eating Chinese? I am certainly looking forward to South Sudan's new embassy in Jerusalem, hopefully east of the 1949 armistice line...maybe Somaliland should just open their embassy next door to gain de facto recognition of their deserved national sovereignty. A stable democratic independent Somaliland would certainly help make the Red Sea more safe for everyone.

- K2K

February 25, 2012 at 1:24pm

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Well, well. Noga's mask has been slipping a lot lately. Fraying at the edges, are we, noga? The other day she dropped her customary misdirection (but what about the North Koreans?) admitted that Israel will not make peace unless and until its illegal settlements are legitimized. Land takes priority over peace. Today we see the racist and bigot inevitably hiding behind all the furious accusations of anti-Semitism, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, blah, blah. Even to respond to another poster is in her sick mind "to sidle up to an anti-Israel non-Jew. . . . Absolutely cringe-worthy." You are not cringe-worthy, noga. You are totally repellent, a really disgusting simulacrum of a human being. What a shame for Israel to be represented here by one such as you. And then, of course, along comes her pet boy, the drooling, nursery school noga himself, makover, to lick her behind. What a pair these two morons. Is there not a single intelligent, decent Israeli, unlike these two not a vicious bigot doing his or her best to ape the worst anti-Semite, who will speak at TNR on behalf of Israel's case? Seemingly not. Perhaps unwilling to be seen in the company of these crude embarrassments. Even the caustic Ginzy seems to have lost his appetite.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 1:26pm

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hemo roid: Are those the best insults you can come up with? Not very creative are they, bigot, pet boy? Oh, did you forget "racist"? Isn't this de rigueur for a pitiful piece of leftist refuse like you?

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 25, 2012 at 1:43pm

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Steadfast in our purpose, we now press on. We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. And in this great conflict, my fellow Americans, we will see freedom's victory.

- CRS9TNR

February 25, 2012 at 1:55pm

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makover: too many "Blame Israel First" posing as Democrats in the USA, when they are not posing as RonPaul2012supporters :) reminds me of the poison that smells like almonds.

- K2K

February 25, 2012 at 2:54pm

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Behold! Roid unloads his misogynistic file on Noga with complete abandon. Who is the little man in the un-control room? Thanks, K2K, for the update. Netanyahu may be Israel's greatest prime minister. His government has taken creative advantage of Israel's strengths and overcome some of the limitations imposed by Israel's small size, dangerous location, and bloodthirsty enemies. Obama, a prissy tight-assed President unwilling to lead, even against Republicans, is reluctantly being lead by Netanyahu. Mr. N got a spontaneous standing ovation from the US Congress. That's why there's this tension between them. Obama genuflects to the Muslim Brotherhood and useless diplomacy with Iran. Netanyahu can't wait for that.

- amidut

February 25, 2012 at 2:59pm

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Make that "misogynistic bile".

- amidut

February 25, 2012 at 3:00pm

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K2K Excellent posting. Constructive. Positive. I knew some of the items. But I was not aware of the developments in Africa. I really wish that the Iranian people would be liberated and participate in progressives positive people building. I understand that Iranian college engineering graduates are the best of the best. Soon there will be the Jewish festival of Purim. It takes place in Persia (ancient Iran). The Jewish Queen Esther saves the Jewish people from the machinations of the Persian prime minister Amman by reporting the plot to the Persian king Achashbeirous . Esther's uncle has an important role in the reporting of the plot. Purim is very similar in celebration to the Christian carnival. Disguises and parades are a plenty. The difference is that in Purim noises are made To celebrate the destruction of the evil one Amman . Is Ahmadenijad the reincarnation of Amman ? Certainly it is. So the Jewish people were once in Babylon (today's Iraq) we have the Babylonian Talmud. We were once in Persia (today's Iran), we have The Book of Esther . We were once in Greece, we have the Greek Tanach (Greek Jewish septuagent). (Hebrew Bible), although we use (canonized) the Jerusalem Tanach . It is believed that many of these cultures are thoroughly reflected in these Hebrew texts. But then in exile we acquired many practices of the countries where we had to be residents and then escape. Israel is a micro image of the world. Jews and immigrants from all parts of the world. True human eclecticism . Jews were not armed during the 2,000 years in exile. Progroms, persecutions, Holocaust, Arab- Muslim attacks, decimated us. We survived. But thanks to Zeev (Vladimir) Jabotinsky , we learned to arm ourselves to defend ourselves. Ben Gurion and others followed. Yes Israel is a light to the nations. I am proud of it. This I believe humbly not arrogantly. But above all we want to reason together. But if we are attacked , we will defend ourselves. No more nice guys, naive guys, dead guys. Survival of the fittest, and finest..

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 3:01pm

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"Israel has shale oil reserves that equal all of Saudi's proven reserves." Do you have a reference for this, K2K?

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 3:09pm

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amidut Excellent posting.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 3:11pm

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Nope, makeover. Those aren't my best insults by half, although all perfectly accurate for the repellent noganand you, are pet boy, whose bathroom fixation is an insult to nursery school children the world over. You see, pee wee, I have to give it to you in small bits, accessible to a tiny mind. Racist? Good chance of that. Most of you right-wing turds are when you scratch the surface a bit. But I don't need to jump the gun and call you out for pathologies you have not yet manifested. The ones you do manifest are quite sufficient. Misogynist, amidut? Why don't you look it up. I made no derogatory reference to noga's sex. She is repellent as a human being, and a poor excuse for one, execrable behavior, execrable opinions, and a sociopathic liar and smear artist. She would be equally loathsome if she were male. It's the usual with the Spine morons. They properly despair of making any intelligent argument or point, quickly dissolve into impotent fury and frustration as a result, descend to insults, and then commence whimpering and whining that they are being abused when itbcones back at them in full measure and then some. Children, children. You are much too stupid and immature to be engaging here and will only find yourselves endlessly frustrated and over-matched. Shouldn't you go play with your idiot peers?

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 3:17pm

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Here is the report about shale oil reserves, etc. Israel, Saudi Arabia. http://quitenormal.wordpress.com/2011/11/07/israel-discovers-yet-another-major-gas-field-off-haifa-coast-dolphin-1/

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 3:18pm

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Really, what a bunch of intellectual clowns, noga, Jaime, and makover, with an occasional supporting cast too dumb to keep it's distance from the toxic trio.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 3:22pm

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"Survival of the fittest?" Your inner Nazi is peeking out, Jaime. That didn't take long, did it. now we know what you are about, although I cannot say it comes as a surprise. Needless to say, noga described you recently as really very kind. That makes perfect sense too.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 3:37pm

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Roid's arguments melt under the afternoon sun.

- amidut

February 25, 2012 at 3:41pm

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It is unfortunate to enmerde the discussion handling roidubouloi the Galiciener dishonest self hatred Jew. The roi (king) du stinky baloney. He is an irritant boil, a camels ass. Very shallow in his postings. Completely obsessed with failed international illegality of liberated territories that is only existent in his fractured mind. Since he knows he is a failure, the only resource he has to stay in the limelight is to insult with the famous obscenities of his Touret syndrome, putting down adversaries. He is a very bitter crackpot. I have been feeling sorry for him for quite a while. It is mysterious what originated his self hatred Jewishness, why as a Galiciener Jew he hates Israel so viciously. I have repeatedly asked him what negative experience lead him to this status in his miserable life. You see there's the case of Michael Learner, the editor of Tikkun Magazine. He is another self hatred Jew constantly attacking Israel and the Jewish community in the USA. The reason is that his mother was rudely ostracized by the Jewish community, an experience he will never forget. He claims to be a leftist. He became a Rabbi, from where nobody knows. He loves the Palestinians so much that he wrote a Pesach Hagadah just for them. Each time you read a new edition of Tikkun it is full of anti Israel vitriol that even Muslim publications pale in comparison. Michael Learner and Tikkun magazine are a marginal non entity. But at one time during the early years of the Clinton administration, Hillary Clinton was very friendly with Michael Lerner who visited the White House frequently. Maybe Hillary was quite impressed, remember her kissing Yassir Arafat's wife at that time? Hillary caught a lot of heath from that incident.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 3:54pm

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Geez when I went to sleep this morning there was one comment and now this thread has grown like rabbits breeding. Amyway, Peretz challenged his readers to make a hash of of the Bolton op Ed that he he linked to. (I am ill informed on the state and potency of Iran's nuclear program and anybody's ability to impede it.) I read the op ed and with my limited knowledge didn't find too much to make a hash of till I came to the end and near to the end. Near to the end Bolton says: ....Given the size and growth of Iran’s program and the notorious inadequacy of our intelligence in that country, there is much we don’t know, and none of it can be good. Accordingly, even a successful Israeli strike could now be insufficient to halt Iran’s program for an extended period. And certainly, Iran has more than enough strategic warning to prepare its defenses.... Which I take to mean that he means what he says: he says, simply reprising him that American intelligence about Iran and its nuclear doings is notoriously inadequate and there is a lot the West does not know. And he has no idea that whether an Israeli strike wold be sufficient meaningfully to halt Iran's program. And he presumes Iran has a lot of time to get its defences set up.  I also think that Bolton's probably better factually informed about Iran's nuclear program than most, more than Peretz and more than most counseling an Israeli attack. So the hash, if that it be, is to ask how Bolton, fair in his confession of what he and we don't know could possibly and so sanguinely conclude that: ....But a world where Iran has nuclear weapons (and, inevitably therefore, so will others nearby) will be far more dangerous than a world after an Israeli military strike.... And thus endeth the hashing such as it be. The decides in Israel confront a terrible dilemma and choice including the consequences in loss of life and destruction that Irani reprisal will exact. Bolton's glib conclusion is unworthy measured in light of that awesome gravity of decision

- basman

February 25, 2012 at 3:58pm

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P.S. to Ken, the reference is to Horvitz not Horowitz.

- basman

February 25, 2012 at 4:00pm

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iggpop: "Noga - "non Jew"?" You are right. Jumping to conclusions, based only on roi's record here. Sorry about that.

- noga1

February 25, 2012 at 4:06pm

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Finally what's with this from Peretz: ...P.S. I know that some of my readers (and maybe even most of them) do not judge arguments and articles I cite by their historic evidence or their logic but by whether their authors are good guys or bad. But let me try again... Coming from a man, whose scatter shot, discursive writing I have generally enjoyed for its spritely provocativeness, not known for his analytic rigor, this is--here's a new one--the kettle calling the pot black. And note the self imposed Sispyphean burden in "But let me try again..." The subtextual sigh is voluble.

- basman

February 25, 2012 at 4:06pm

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roi he he he king du rotten baloney , it is unfortunate your mom did not have an abortion when she was carrying you in her belly. You must be the reason Obama instituted the recent law to promote abortions. We have to make sure specimens like king du rotten baloney do not infest our planet. Can you imagine more than one roident. And a Galicianer self hatred Jew for that. Still you have not told me the reason for your Jewish self hatred madness. oisht shou shein gessen such a meshumet.?

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 4:09pm

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"Needless to say, noga described you recently as really very kind. " I remember perfectly well what I did say. But if you insist on this statement, roi, then you need to support it by a full quote and a link. Unless you do that, and sustain the gist of your statement, you area liar.

- noga1

February 25, 2012 at 4:12pm

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02/25/2012 - 4:09pm EDT | JAIMECHUCH What's the fucking point of this and like comments that make parts of this thread read like a psycho drama?

- basman

February 25, 2012 at 4:19pm

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roident watch the mouse trap. And that famous quote, time for your meds. A Galiciener dishonest self hatred Jew. What a vermin. Mirror mirror on the wall who is the most hateful of them all? Moi the king du rotten baloney. International illegality of liberated territories!! No nurse let me repeat it before my treatment, one more time .....IIofLT.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 4:25pm

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basman You imbecile go back to sleep. Fucking schmuck.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 4:27pm

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gasman we are trying to cure roi. It appears you can join the treatment .

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 4:31pm

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roidubouloi ""Survival of the fittest?" Your inner Nazi is peeking out,..." Come on Roid, Jaime is ignorant and absurd, but the phrase was coined by the British in the 19th c.

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 4:32pm

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I give up on suggesting a little less insanity JAIMECHUCH. We all have commenters here we like less and more or like and dislke a lot. But you are stone loco, or plum, if you prefer, stone, plum, same thing here.

- basman

February 25, 2012 at 4:50pm

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What's an antisemitic Left? כדאי להבהיר מהו שמאל אנטישמי. ובכן, אנטישמיות היא, בין השאר, קמפיין של שקרים כדי ליצור דה-הומניזציה או דמוניזציה. פעם עשו את זה ליהודים. היום עושים את זה לישראל. זו הייתה אנטישמיות אז. זו אנטישמיות גם היום. http://www.nrg.co.il/app/index.php?do=blog&encr_id=f2b4c1b55be76d1e6d7b777256ea0370&id=3417 "It behooves us to clarify what is the antisemitic Left. Antisemitism is, among other things, a campaign of lies in order to create de-humanization or demonization. once they did it to Jews. Today they do it to Israel, it was antisemitism then. It is antisemitism now." (Ben Dror Yemini, Israeli journalist and jurist). When someone says ""Hence, Israel threatens to throw us under a bus" (roi) it is obvious that he has stepped into the realm of the fantastic world Jewish conspiracy, which culminated in the famous fraud which later served as the warrant for genocide. According to the European Union Definition of Antisemitism (EU definition): "Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective - such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions." "Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non­Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.'' In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for ``why things go wrong.'' It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits. " The suggestion that tiny, minuscule, existentially threatened, frightened Israel, with its less than 6 million Jewish citizens, and less than 0.1% of the territory called the Middle East, is in a position to throw the giant American state (with its 330 million citizens and almost a continent size territory, secure between two oceans and two peaceful neighbours) under the bus, qualifies as antisemitic rhetoric par excellence. Of course roi could always retreat from his inciting speech tropes by admitting that he got carried away in the heat of the moment. So, roi, are you willing to take that onus?

- noga1

February 25, 2012 at 5:01pm

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So hemo roid has finally graduated to "inner Nazi" insults. I guess he is just satisfying his inner Uber Schmuck. I love it when hemo roid imbecile exhibits the symptoms of rage. "Roid's arguments melt under the afternoon sun." Hell, they are so flimsy they melt in the Antarctic.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 25, 2012 at 5:02pm

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Now, noga, to be lying you first have to be incorrect, then the error must be intentional. One is not a liar, or truthful, because the evidence is not in hand. Of course, it makes sense that you don't even understand the meaning of the word liar, as you are so immersed in your own endless falsehoods that the distinction doesn't even matter. That's what makes you a sociopathic liar. The link you want is, however, right t'here: http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/100856/conservative-republican-religious-right?page=2 02/20/2012 - 3:58pm EDT | noga1 The gist of the argument, noga, is that you find Jaime and his ravings sympathetic. It is my inference that this is because you are every bit as twisted and sick as he is, but better able to control your spewing so that it bears a resemblance to the speech of people who do not share your evil psychosis. You are two of a kind. The content of what you both say here is pretty much the same. He's merely less inhibited. _____________________________ Here's a nice quote from the same thread: 02/20/2012 - 12:18pm EDT | noga1 "No matter, Israel is not actually interested in any peace that does not legitimize its colonization of the Palestinians " You are correct. _________________________ Here's another cute one: 02/20/2012 - 4:05pm EDT | JAIMECHUCH noga1 You don't have the exclusive right to insult and put down people. Yes you are a nebeile. Yes you are a JAP, or JIP, nasty and despicable. But we have all kinds in our clan. Modesty and compassion will do wonders for you. I bet each time you put down people your face resembles the ugly witch of snow white and the seven dwarfs. And maybe you mist it , you should be like a lamp, on all night, off during the day. ________________________________ What a pack of idiots the lot of you are. arnon, my point about Jaime is quite correct. When originally coined in the 19th century "survival of the fittest" had a different, Darwinian meaning. Taken up by social eugenicists, and then used to justify colonialism, they took on a very different meaning, thence taken up by the Nazis and their eugenics ideology. As applied to human beings, it has nothing but Nazi connotations. Wacko haters often get to the same point by different routes. I don't find it at all surprising that an infuriated nutcase like Jaime gets there too.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 5:08pm

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arnon1 I was wondering when you were going to come with you Turret obscenities put down people syndrome. You are pretty ignorant. I caught you in Tablet Magazine commenting about Jewsih communities in Latinamerica, concerning Venezuelas Chavez antisemitic recent moves. The comments were by an arnon. It is impossible there Are. more than one arnon One arnon ass is more than enough. But here it goes. It stated that there are 50,000 Jews in Mexico. Then the stupid ignorant states they came after WWII, false. They came in the 1920's and 1930's. Then this mayor ass states, grab your seats, that the conversors are a concern, they hide, and shows the dilemma of the community. This arnon ignorant and lazy excrement could have checked Wikipedia . Conversors escaping the Spanish inquisition came to Mexico in the sixteenth century. Established in the north city of Monterrey. There are big businesses today of their descendants But they remained Catholics. The Jewish community in Mexico uses it as historical curiosity. BTW stupid jealous arnon1 I provided you with the reference about gas/oil findings in israel comparable to Saudi Arabia . Since you are so stupid and ignorant instead of thanking me, you resorted to insult me and putting me down. Clear sign of envy because you are inferior to me. You idiot, you could do it yourself, although you are incapable to do it. Just google the subject and will bring you the articles. BTW that harmless arnon in tablet magazine put down all Jewish communities in Latinamerica, including Argentina which is now over 100,000 strong. Used to be larger. Contributions of these communities include the recent deceased billionaire Zaga (helicopter accident) Sephardic Jew Mexican , major contributor to the Shas party in Israel. There was Dultzin head of the Jewish agency and personal friend of Menachem Begin came to Mexico from Poland and then moved to Israel. BTW the Mexican Jews are composed from those that came from Poland, Russia, the Ashkenasim, and those that came from Syria an Lebanon, the Sephardic. At the end arnon is the same vermin like rudubouloi. Only that arnon is more stupid and extremely ignorant. One is a jackass Jew (arnon), the other is a camel ass self hatred Jew (roidubouloi). The frustrations of these losers are put on a defensive posture by Turret syndrome of putting down people using obscenities.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 5:12pm

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roi does not have the guts to provide the full context of my original comments". Why? Because if he provides the full and correct quotes, he is a self-admitted liar. Anyone interested should check out his so called "quotes" to realize the extent of this poster's malignancy. No one who can assert with straight face that "Hence, Israel threatens to throw us under a bus" (roi) should ever be taken seriously by any self respecting rational reader. Unless, that is, roi openly states here that he misspoke, in the heat of the moment and that he had noi ntention of actually suggesting that tiny beleaguered existentially-threatened Israel is in any position whatsoever to throw the mighty US under the bus.

- noga1

February 25, 2012 at 5:24pm

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"So, roi, are you willing to take that onus?" First of all, noga, no speech act could dehumanize you. You are inhuman, your own disgusting creation. Nothing I could say about you could possibly be worse than what you are. I often wish I had the language to describe your utterly vile self properly Here is the perfect example of you as the propagandist par excellence: "When someone says ""Hence, Israel threatens to throw us under a bus" (roi) it is obvious that he has stepped into the realm of the fantastic world Jewish conspiracy, which culminated in the famous fraud which later served as the warrant for genocide." No, it does not mean that it all. As, makover, the kvetcher-in-chief himself pointed out right here, the message that Israel is attempting to convey to the United States is, "If you don't want us to bomb Iran, with whatever losses that may entail for you, your economy, the world, then you have to." It is only a fantastic conspiracy if that is not what Israel is seeking and not the threat that Israel is levying. But quite clearly both are the case. Israel wants Iran bombed in the effort, likely futile, to stop its nuclear program, and Israel wants us to do the job. What we have here is a standard inversion of reality deployed by malign propagandists such as noga. It is called lying in plain sight: Yourself making a true accusation of yourself that is attributed as a falsehood uttered by the enemy. It is a cute maneuver that attempts both to discredit the truth and the speaker of the truth at one and the same time. It is noga's forté. Of course, it is not Israel's desire to have to threaten us with unwanted consequences of its actions. But it is perfectly willing to do so to get what it wants. I don't take it personally as an American. It does not represent any animus toward us. It is simply a state maneuvering, and trying to maneuver other states, in its own interest. It is exactly how we need to behave toward Israel, with all the tools available to us, as a state actor that we want to act in our interest and not in opposition to our interest. Nothing personal, of course. As ever, noga has nothing whatever to say to the point. The only question is how many people she can accuse of anti-Semitism in a given span of time and what tools she can bring to bear to do it. If noga were the face of the Jewish people, how could the world fail to hate us? Hatred would be the only rational response.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 5:26pm

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ass man go back to sleep. A schmuck is a schmuck always a schmuck. basman, ass man, whatever. Another mediocre frustrated old jackass. roi is the camel ass. arnon1, what a looser , he is just a piece of flesh, very ignorant, he suffers from it, envious of those superior to him. But I will be charitable and educate him. It benefits me in finding information. So arnon1 you serve a purpose, with your vile Turret syndrome , it brings the good In me. Too bad you are an unhappy mediocrity. I am having fun educating vermin's, arnon1 and rodent. Now gasman ass man basman that's another story he is so fucked up (using his favorite expression) that he is better off asleep than rotting amongst us.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 5:30pm

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Israel, tiny, beleaguered, aggressive, serial violator of international law, armed with SLBMs tipped with thermonuclear weapons is perfectly capable of doing harm to the US, or threatening harm to the US, if it thinks it is in its interest to do so. Noga has not the slightest difficulty of repeatedly accusing the US and its president of threatening harm to Israel, but suddenly sees anti-Semites appearing at the suggestion that Israel might behave in such a manner. No, Israel is hardly going to destroy the United States, and only the hyperbolic noga could possibly understand what I said in such a manner. But it is perfectly willing to do proceed as it sees fit without regard to our interests or in order to compel us to do what it wants to avoid harm to our interests. I don't think Obama will bite. But maybe if noga writes and tells him he is an anti-Semite he will. ________________ As for quoting you, I leave it to you to quote your own vile trash, noga. You can do that yourself. The link is there for anyone interested. We all breathlessly await the evidence of Jaime's kindness that you and you alone seem to find.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 5:36pm

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Roi the liar provides a quote: "Here's a nice quote from the same thread: 02/20/2012 - 12:18pm EDT | noga1 "No matter, Israel is not actually interested in any peace that does not legitimize its colonization of the Palestinians " You are correct. " here is my full comment. Judge for yourself in what way I meant that ironic "You are correct" in view of the quotes I brought from Palestinian and pro-Palestinian activists who reflect the mindset of the Arab street: "02/20/2012 - 12:18pm EDT | noga1 "No matter, Israel is not actually interested in any peace that does not legitimize its colonization of the Palestinians " You are correct. Here is Prof. AbuKhalil on the same issue: "3) Finkelstein keeps talking about the “law” and how international law supports the state of Israel. But Finkelstein talks about law as if it is fixed. Law changes and adapts quickly to changing conditions on the ground. At one point, international law supported colonialism and the League of Nations endorsed (in its preamble) the Balfour Declaration and the “trusteeship” over nations – all that in the name of self-determination. Finkelstein even invokes the International Court of Justice in the Hague. But if oppressed people in the world resorted to International law in their struggle for independence and freedom, more than half of the globe would still be under colonial rule. I am glad that Finkelstein was not around to advise the people of Africa on how to achieve their freedom through international law. Plus, there are elements of international law which are in favor of what Finkelstein fears: the UN Partition Plan (as unjust as it was) does not give Israel more than 56% of historic Palestine and it does provide for the establishment of a Palestinian state over much more than the West Bank and Gaza. Is that not international law too Finkelstein? Furthermore, the UN General Assembly resolution 194 is also a part of international law that guides Finkelstein’s views on finding a solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. And the UN Partition Plan does not permit Israel to discriminate, confiscate lands, expel peoples, and commit war crimes. These essential ingredients of the state of Israel are not part of international law." And here is a comment to his article: "To me, you either support the dismantlement of the state of israel or your an enemy to justice. Its as simple as that. Anything else is hypocrisy. How can you be against settlements in the occupied westbank of palestine while support settlements in the occupied galilee of palestine, or in yafa or anywhere else in palestine? The biggest settlement does not lie in the westbank, it lies in yafa and is called tel aviv." ___________ To recap: "The biggest settlement does not lie in the westbank, it lies in yafa and is called tel aviv." In which case, roi's statement that "Israel is not actually interested in any peace that does not legitimize its colonization of the Palestinians " (as in the Jewish settlements of Tel Aviv, Haifa, etc etc) is absolutely correct. Roi, who insists on Tel Aviv being a colonization of Palestinians inadvertently allows us a glimpse into his own agenda. He is no better than the crowds who are attending these days the notorious conference at Harvard U, where they debate that Israel as a Jewish state is a colonizing project with no right to exist. Take that, take his statement that "Israel threatens to throw us under a bus" and put it together and tell me what exactly comes out.

- noga1

February 25, 2012 at 5:38pm

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noga1 Very well said. My deep apologies if I blew my top in the past. We have significant enemies of Israel in this site. Too bad. Marty with his eloquence, knowledge, honesty, eternal support of Israel, an heroic Jew somebody to be proud of, happens to attract a whole bunch of vermins. But we have all kinds. But it is true that the bad stinky bring the best in us. To me there is a real pleasure to read MP. It is a strong antidote to the venom spilled by the demonizers of Israel.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 5:41pm

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Here is what roi said: ""Needless to say, noga described you recently as really very kind." And later on he adds: "We all breathlessly await the evidence of Jaime's kindness that you and you alone seem to find." Provide the exact quote where I referred to Jaime's kindness. Surely you are capable of such a task? What are you afraid of? If you are telling the truth, you can quote it and you will be the winner. Go on, then. Show us what you've got, semi professional politician that you are. ___________ FWIIW, Jaime, this has nothing to do with you. I stand by my opinion that unlike roi, who is all invective and foul-minded mouthings, you have shown that, between your mindless and frankly unfathomable fuliminations, you can be kind, as in the case of your exchanges with Skahn.

- noga1

February 25, 2012 at 5:47pm

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The essential endless message of Israelis, reprised here by noga, is nothing but this: We are tiny and beleaguered, by definition, without regard to our actual armed strength, our wealth (and now apparently oil too), or the power we wield in our corner of the world. Hence, the world must accept whatever we choose to do, without regard to international norms. Because we are tiny and beleaguered. Tiresome tripe. No one buys it except the people who peddle it.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 5:49pm

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I give up on suggesting a little less insanity JAIMECHUCH. We all have commenters here we like less and more or like and dislke a lot. But you are stone loco, or plum, if you prefer, stone, plum, same thing here.

- basman

February 25, 2012 at 5:56pm

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Here you are noga at your best, you hideous, cretinous, acolyte of Josef Goebbels. "Roi, who insists on Tel Aviv being a colonization of Palestinians inadvertently allows us a glimpse into his own agenda. He is no better than the crowds who are attending these days the notorious conference at Harvard U, where they debate that Israel as a Jewish state is a colonizing project with no right to exist." There is no lie you will not tell and no lie you will not atempt to plant in someone else's mouth. You cannot find anything, anywhere, anytime that I have ever said that could remotely be interpreted in such a manner, let alone literally say this. I have always here defended Israel's right and duty to defend itself and to enjoy peace and security. I abhor its colonization of the Palestinians in defiance of international law. Those are hardly the same thing, but the ghoulish noga will always attempt to conflate them so that abhorrence of Israel's journey to apartheid becomes indistinguishable from wanting to see it destroyed. You really are a ghoul, noga. There are no limits to your depravity.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 5:57pm

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Go ahead and quote yourself you beast if you want your words repeated again. I don't need to do your work for you.

- roidubouloi

February 25, 2012 at 5:59pm

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roi is upset. His mindless words seem to have overtaken his initial intentions. Poor roi. You must always remember what Montaigne said about liars and good memory. No one has such a good memory that they can keep track of all their lies. When you tell the truth you don't need a good memory; it doesn't change when your needs change.

- noga1

February 25, 2012 at 6:05pm

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K2K: "Israel has shale oil reserves that equal all of Saudi's proven reserves. Federally owned lands in Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana have FOUR times Saudi reserves in undeveloped shale oil, a two hundred year supply of oil at current USA consumption." Well, if so, that's great, BUT it appears that many US shale reserves have been overstated. There are many questions remaining about just how much shale oil and gas we will be able to extract--and that's leaving the water issue aside. http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/casey-research/2011/09/29/shale-gas-aint-everything-they-said-it-would-be http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/bill-powers/2011/05/02/the-fayetteville-shale-peaks http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8677 It's clear we will get substantial benefits from shale hydrocarbons, but these 100 and 200 year reserve estimates will end up being disappointing. The first article above talks about downgraded estimates for the Marcellus Shale. The second discusses the peaking of the Fayetteville Shale. The third is a rebuttal of some of Mortimer Zuckerman's claims about shale hydrocarbons. Although I doubt it will change the overall peak oil (and gas) construct, what it MIGHT do is help buoy the US economy over the medium term, a good thing but also a fillip to those who see a window in which the US can change the overall global power balance by disrupting China's slow rise to parity and subverting or attacking those smaller countries who stand in our way. A temporary decrease in reliance on oil imports would probably provide added strategic flexibility to support uch a maneuver. That's probably why many warmongers are so seized with the idea of shale and the supposed invalidation of the peak oil hypothesis. Of course, per the Bloomberg article below, China may actually have similar-sized shale gas reserves to the US, though the numbers are just as pie-in-the-sky as all the others. If that's the case, since China is more dependent on energy imports than the US, shale might actually be a long-term strategic net loss for the US. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-13/china-may-hold-shale-gas-auction-as-early-as-end-february-1-.html

- ccarrick@vzavenue.net-old

February 25, 2012 at 6:08pm

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Actually, there was quite a bit more to my post above, but one of the attached links seems to have supplanted the "full comment" button somehow. Oh, well. Here are the other two links on shale at any rate: http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8677 http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/bill-powers/2011/05/02/the-fayetteville-shale-peaks

- ccarrick@vzavenue.net-old

February 25, 2012 at 6:23pm

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"02/25/2012 - 5:49pm EDT | roidubouloi The essential endless message of Israelis, reprised here by noga, is nothing but this: We are tiny and beleaguered, by definition, without regard to our actual armed strength, our wealth (and now apparently oil too), or the power we wield in our corner of the world. Hence, the world must accept whatever we choose to do, without regard to international norms. Because we are tiny and beleaguered." This is another one of roi's failed attempts to deflect ("oh look cows!" roi's style) from what he stated above, that "Israel threatens to throw us under a bus" (a statement that fits perfectly the EU's definition of antisemitism).

- noga1

February 25, 2012 at 6:24pm

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basman ass man whatever. You had your fun as an established jack ass. You vent your frustrations by insulting. I have not seen any positive contributions from you. Maybe you live in the basement ? wow another ignorant invective schmuck to add to the mix. Suggestion go and live together with arnon1, you might even marry each other. I am sure that as ignorant both of you are, will be happy together. In this case sex has nothing to do with it, just jealousy that both of you are inferior to me. That's life. Some get it and some don't. And roident, is unearthing his famous repetitive vile, .....international illegality of liberated territories, why are you a Galiciener dishonest self hatred Jew demonizing Israel. Why? Answer the question .

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 6:56pm

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I give up on suggesting a little less insanity JAIMECHUCH. We all have commenters here we like less and more or like and dislke a lot. But you are stone loco, or plum, if you prefer, stone, plum, same thing here.

- basman

February 25, 2012 at 7:04pm

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All of Western civlization? Please. One Ohio class submarine carries 24 D-5 missiles, 10 warheads each for a total of 240 warheads. A well placed submarine, say in the Indian Ocean could use 1/3 of it's payload to hit anything worth hitting in Iran. The Iranians know that. If we could deter the Soviet Union with 36,000 deployed strategic warheads, I think we could deter a nascent Iranian arsenal.

- dubyadoubte

February 25, 2012 at 7:12pm

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"There is no lie you will not tell and no lie you will not atempt to plant in someone else's mouth. " I am a good student of roi's tactics. As he tried to plant in my mouth statements that he knew were not at all what he proclaimed them to be. (as quoting only part of my answer to his slanderous accusation that "No matter, Israel is not actually interested in any peace that does not legitimize its colonization of the Palestinians " "You are correct. ", deliberately trying to mislead the reader into thinking I was talking about Hebron and Nablus, rather than Tel Aviv) (As stating that I told Jaime he is very kind without providing the full comment -- something roi has been too cowardly to do -- which essentially said: That while both roi and Jaime were inclined towards unbridled invective, at least Jaime from time to time showed that he was capable of kindness). See how easily it can be done to you, roi, uberschmuck? It's not pleasant, is it, to be attributed nefarious and inhuman types of thinking, is it? _________________ I almost forgot iggpop's sneer about my suggesting roi was a self-hating Jew. While roi may succumb to antisemitism when his hatred for Israel overheats his beleaguered mind, he cannot be accused of being a self hating Jew. In fact I believe he considers himself the Very Model of a Modern Jew, the goodest Jew around, a Jew who would gain the approval of Walt&Mearshimer's definition of a good Jew. Roi is in fact a Jew who loves himself all too well.

- noga1

February 25, 2012 at 7:12pm

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Does anyone know what the derailed Jaime Chuchu train is talking about?

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 7:13pm

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Itzik - It pains me to read that your wise and moderated comments appear to generate only frothing lunacy from the current crazed inhabitants of tnr and more specifically, the dwindling band of Peretzian acolytes. To think that you have to suffer insults from someone as deranged and demented as this JAIMECHUCH specimen is pretty sad. This thread is a perfect example of why I pretty much dropped commenting on tnr's boards. It seems that someone has posted a tnr flier at Bellevue and this has completely changed the posting behaviors across the board.

- MrCookie1

February 25, 2012 at 7:16pm

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I get it. Jaime Chchu is Santorum doing an impersonation of a Jew. No other way to explain this train wreck.

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 7:22pm

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An interview with Edward Said, 2000: http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0008c&L=fofognet&D=0&F=P&P=2403 "In a binational state, the Jews will quickly become a minority, like the Lebanese Christians. "Yes, but you're going to be a minority anyway. In about 10 years there will be demographic parity between Jews and Palestinians, and the process will go on. But the Jews are a minority everywhere. They are a minority in America. They can certainly be a minority in Israel." Knowing the region and given the history of the conflict, do you think such a Jewish minority would be treated fairly? "I worry about that. The history of minorities in the Middle East has not been as bad as in Europe, but I wonder what would happen. It worries me a great deal. The question of what is going to be the fate of the Jews is very difficult for me. I really don't know. It worries me." The fate of the Jews in an Arab Palestine worries the professor.

- noga1

February 25, 2012 at 7:27pm

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arnon1 In the past you behaved as a coward. But still you are inferior to me. You are an ignorant mediocre old jack ass. You posted your BS of Unitarian church. Here you are back to your turret syndrome with obscenities and because of your inferior personality you put down people. So you were the one in Tablet Magazine posting erratic derogatory opinions about Jewish communities in Latino America, Mexico and such. You are so ignorant about Israel that makes people laugh at you. Well I am here to educate you. Another vermin on the plate. Where is the DDT to eliminate arnon1 (there are no more than 1 , hopefully) arnon1. The old fart posting one liners of the turret syndrome. A schmuck is a schmuck is a schmuck, and such a schmuck.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 8:07pm

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I know this thread has had it but I want to go out talking about the real issues: "U.S. Bulks Up Iran Defenses" "Pentagon Plans New Sea, Land Measures to Counter Any Attempt to Close Persian Gulf Oil Gateway" http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204778604577243640137724400.html The idea that we are not doing anything to counter the threat from Iran isn't factual.

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 8:17pm

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arnon1 You are pathetically inferior. Being extremely ignorant is no excuse. What a schmuck you are. But be grateful you leaned new things from me. Israel gas deposits reference. Jewish community in Mexico. And awareness about your despicable disposition with your turret syndrome. And you got it for free. Say thank you , you inferior schmuck, old fart. Wow arnon1 turret syndrome is virally contagious.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 8:20pm

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Congratulations arnon1, you have learned your lesson. You now know how to google. Still you are an inferior schmuck, pitiful , despicable , affected with turret syndrome. Aren't you glad I educated you with new tricks, you ungrateful schmuck.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 8:25pm

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arnon1 See my posting of 8:51 am You are definitely inferior to me . Ignorant schmuck .

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 8:31pm

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Fuck off Jaime, you are not even worth an insult.

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 8:35pm

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IggyPop Thanks for the references.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 8:41pm

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arnon1 your inferior brain Is in action. Coward. Inferior ? Watch your turret obscenities . You are definitely worth being taken care of. You have gained first price of being the most imbecile in the site. Another poor soul I feel sorry for. Get some professional help. But I guess you are a lost cause.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 8:49pm

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Chuchu loves the word "inferior," he has surely been hearing it all his life with reference to himself.

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 8:56pm

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noga1 The late Edward Said , Palestinian professor at Columbia University ,and Daniel Barenboim, the Israeli pianist/conductor, were friends until the end. Barenboim a pacifist, supported the war against the Hamas Gaza in 2008 as the right of Israel to defend itself. Conclusion. Is to make sure that Jews in Israel remain a majority. even the Palestinians want it to be so.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 9:02pm

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arnon1 Go and sleep. You are past your bed time. You are inferior to me, recognize it, live with it, and make sure you get professional help with your turret syndrome. Is not nice to be obscene and put down people. But I thought you new tricks today. Aren't you happy. Imbecile schmuck. Go to bed, it is an order. Old fart. Wao it is caching .

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 9:10pm

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Perhaps we cold try and get back to the conversation at hand. Do we have any indication there is a viable candidate and entourage who could replace the crazies in Tehran? Is there anyone who has pledged to ban the pursuit of nuclear weapons (and perhaps tone down the whole all-jews-must-die nonsense). Regime change will only work if the new regime is at least somewhat sane. If thats the case, perhaps the answer is a well aimed .50 cal bullet instead of a couple thousand planes. It's not like it hasn't been done before. Thoughts?

- Tristan

February 25, 2012 at 9:14pm

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But Tristan, what about the very intelligent observation from dubyadoubte (and earlier from Roi): That we somehow managed to live with a nuclear Soviet Union for all those years. I think this Iran thing is just a bunch of war mongers trying to whip us into a frenzy.

- MOLLYSIMON

February 25, 2012 at 9:25pm

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Moreover, Tristan, this hype about Iran feels very much like our lead-up to the war in Iraq. Who's driving this conversation, really?

- MOLLYSIMON

February 25, 2012 at 9:27pm

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I agree, Molly. And you'er right, Peter (aka Dubya) made, as he always does, very good points. But we cannot allow Iran to have the bomb. I confess I do not know what the answer is, other than giving - for the moment - sanctions timetpo work. If they do not, and intel points to the imminent arrival of the newest member of the atomic weapons club. We cannot allow that to happen. I just don't know what the hell we do that that point.

- Tristan

February 25, 2012 at 9:39pm

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JAIMECHUCH "arnon1 Go and sleep. You are past your bed time. You are inferior to me,...." Keep talking yourself into believing that you an Übermensch that's what little people do.

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 10:31pm

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MOLLYSIMON: “But Tristan, what about the very intelligent observation from dubyadoubte (and earlier from Roi): That we somehow managed to live with a nuclear Soviet Union for all those years.” The Soviet leaders were cruel tyrannical but weren’t suicidal. With a nuclear Shiite State we are in a completely different environment. They could turn out to be like the Soviets, but … It’s the ‘but’ that should be worrisome. What is also missed with these easy analogies are the close calls we had we the Soviet Union (not just during the Cuban missile crises) and the fact that Iran is reacting more belligerently to any attempt at containment.

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 10:43pm

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Ok let us go to the matter at hand. According to Al Jazeera the. American news media has been drumming. Demonization of Iran implying USA should attack Iran, however the Obama administration is against war , they are only for sanctions. In contrast with the drumming against Iraq that came from the George W administration. http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/listeningpost/2012/02/20122258252674477.html In Israel Ehud Barak was drumming attacking Iran, his fellow ministers told him to shut up. Netanyahu just ordered his Ministers not to discuss in public about the Iran situation. The Obama administration has been quite clear to Israel to give a chance for sanctions to work. However USA has beefed up their fleets in Harmus in case Iran tries to make trouble, see my references in Al ARABIYA and YNET . The case for war against Iran looks to me pretty slim. Everything looks bad for Iran at the present moment, the Syrian situation, the strong sanctions imposed by BHO. Even Hizbollah has said recently that they are not pawns of Iran, and will function with their own decisions. Some countries have profited from the situation. Instead of currency India is paying with rice. China and Japan have made no moves to get oil elsewhere as requested by BHO, they get it from Iran. Yes recently Iran stopped selling oil to European countries, but move is insignificant. Thus war with Iran is not in the horizon in my opinion. What is on the table is Iran playing the game of belligerence mixed with diplomacy. They have to maintain self respect, it is very important in the Middle East. I guess is important everywhere. But the Iranian belligerence and aggressiveness and terrorism, makes Iran not to be trusted. Acquiring nuclear weapons capability by Iran, will be unacceptable to almost everybody, Israel of course. USA, Europe, Iranian neighbors the Sunni countries Saudi Arabia and such. However reading AL ARABIYA, Al JAZEERA, even YNET, there is non of the noise I hear and read in the American news media. Or TNR for that matter.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 10:46pm

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Exactly, Arnon. War should be avoided at all costs, but if Iran does succeed in fabricating even one nuclear device the insanity inherent in their beliefs makes it impossible to look to past near-catastrophies with the former Soviets with any degree of self assurance. I pray it doesn't come to it, the idea of war with Iran sickens me, but if they perfect a nuclear device our hand will be forced. God help us all.

- Tristan

February 25, 2012 at 10:55pm

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Well arnon1 I thought you had gone to sleep, not really, you are simply inferior, you know it and act accordingly. Your whole behavior of insulting and putting down people proves your insecurity and lack of self esteem. You have consistently behaved insultingly with bloggers in this site. And I will not let you get away with it. You have turret syndrome (read Wikipedia). And although this imposes wasting space in the site, you have to be confronted, until you decide to be civil. But I am not going to let you insult me. If you are going to be civil I will be civil. Otherwise I will fight you.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 11:00pm

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Tristan "Exactly, Arnon. War should be avoided at all costs, but if Iran does succeed in fabricating even one nuclear device the insanity inherent in their beliefs makes it impossible to look to past near-catastrophies with the former Soviets with any degree of self assurance. I pray it doesn't come to it, the idea of war with Iran sickens me, but if they perfect a nuclear device our hand will be forced. God help us all." This is a much more reasonable attitude than talking about "war mongers." "War-mongers" is so thirtysh, and so Sovietish.

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 11:03pm

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FUck off, "UBERMENSCH" JAIME CHUCHu. No on here gives a rat's ass about what a demented asshole like you thinks or posts.

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 11:08pm

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arnon1 Watch it . You are out of control. Your inferiority and cowardice is pretty clear. But I repeat I will not allow you to insult and spill your turret sickness against me or any other blogger in this site. You are a sick person. And you will not get away with it. You have to be watched constantly. I will be your guardian, you poor inferior sick soul. Unless TNR decides to assign a moderator. In that case arnon1 will be here no more. He has wasted space with his turret syndrome. And finally he has exploded .

- JAIMECHUCH

February 25, 2012 at 11:50pm

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Deluded "UBERMENSCH" JAIME CHUCHu IS BAAAAAAAAAAACK

- arnon1

February 25, 2012 at 11:55pm

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For what is worth it. The Arab Spring is bearing fruits of good change. The power of Iran appears to be crumbling. Hamas supporting the rebels in Syria. Hezbollah indicating independence from Iran. Hamas under better watch by Egypt. ALARABIYA calling it the Arab Winter. Let us hope that the good things will come to the good Muslim people. Yes I am pro Israel. But if the Muslim people dedicate themselves to peace and industry will be good to everybody around.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 26, 2012 at 12:07am

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arnon1 I have you under control. If capital letters are the sign, you must be screaming your head off. You should avoid a hearth attack. If it occurs , I say good riddance. No more arnon1 insulting and demeaning fellow bloggers. Try to be civil. These might be your last comments in this site, you poor soul you. What a waste.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 26, 2012 at 12:16am

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Well, that was a pleasant interlude, a nice evening at the ballet. Now for a little nightcap, finishing the job I couldn't finish before of disassembling the nightmarish noga, so foul and that any Israeli who happens to stumble in here must be grateful indeed that she has forsaken the country she claims to love to live in Canada. Now, where were we. Oh yes, the wretched slime claims my words are catching up with me and demands that I withdraw my accusation that Israel is willing to threaten to throw the US (meaning US interests) under a bus (the US would not literally fit under a bus) to manipulate us into attacking Iran for it. According to noga, I am damned as an anti-Semite for thinking so. But noga cannot make the charge stick. So she proceeds to do exactly what she always does, quote some Arab Israel-hater and then attribute his words to me. Does it matter whether I expressed those sentiments, approved those sentiments, have ever heard of the guy who expressed them? No, not for this vermin. This is her perpetual tactic. She tried it the other day on ironyroad, trying to pin Khalidi to him with laughable results. In this case, noga goes her own depraved self one better. Not content with trying to make it appear that I approved someone else's words, she manufactures something out of whole cloth and purports to attribute it to me: "Roi, who insists on Tel Aviv being a colonization of Palestinians inadvertently allows us a glimpse into his own agenda. He is no better than the crowds who are attending these days the notorious conference at Harvard U, where they debate that Israel as a Jewish state is a colonizing project with no right to exist." Of course, she cannot quote anything that I have ever said that even remotely resembles this, and doesn't even attempt to try. She just invents the whole putrid lie out of her own diseased mind and declares it. Then, to cap it off, she attributes her own execrable behavior to me. Did I falsely attribute anything to noga? Of course not. I copied her words exactly as the appear on this website. Did she indeed inform us how kind JaimeChuch is, although everyone else here can see that he is as completely insane as she is? She sure as hell did. Thus, we see this daughter of Goebbels at work, depraved, utterly dishonest, completely unprincipled, lying ceaselessly. A twisted ghoul. ______________________ As to the substance of the matter, let me then first reaffirm my own words (as opposed to those that noga invents to attribute to me), completely. What does the phrase "throw under a bus" mean? According to wikipedia, "To throw (someone) under the bus is an idiomatic phrase meaning to sacrifice another person (often a friend or ally), who is usually not deserving of such treatment, out of malice or for personal gain." That shoe fits, although I specifically negated a malign intention. What Israel views as its own gain is quite sufficient as its reason. And no one should be surprised. This is how states behave. We can recall, for example, that Israel never returned the materials stolen by Pollard or cooperated in assessing the damage he caused, as it had promised to do. Israel is quite willing to proceed without regard to our interests, and we should be willing to do likewise, to defend our own interests in the matter first and foremost. Israel is not the 51st state of the Union, it is not our buddy, nor even our ally. It is a dependent client state. We do not depend on Israel, we do not need its support or aid or assistance or forbearance. We should not compromise our own interests on its behalf, except in arrangements that we define as advantageous to us. If Israel is intent on attacking Iran while we do not want to see Iran attacked, and if we are unable or choose not to prevent it from doing so, we should distance ourselves completely and let Israel bear the consequences of its own actions without expectation of shelter from us. Israel is isolated because it chooses to stand alone, defying a multitude of UNSC resolutions. It does not seek to be a member in good standing of the international community if the cost of that membership is to give up its colonial ambitions (no, not Tel Aviv, the occupied territories, occupied not merely in fact but as a matter of both international and Israeli law). Its blustering, bullying leadership insists constantly on Israel's own ability to defend itself. Let it then do so rather than endeavoring to make its security our responsibility or expense. And if Israel threatens actions that harm our interests, let us defend our interests with the power at our disposal.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 12:44am

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It is well and good that we are going to do our best to defend passage through the Strait of Hormuz, but the reality is that we would have to be able to defend against attack along the entire littoral coast of Iran. Attacks by missile or fast boat, or even by stealthy slow boat with a mine or bomb, can be launched from anywhere. If tankers are being sunk, there will be no tanker traffic. If we are compelled to fend off Iranian attacks, it will require punitive raids against Iran itself, with likely escalation, another war we should not be fighting with uncertain consequences. I think it extremely unlikely that Iran would be the aggressor in trying to close the Gulf for just that reason, the situation would almost certainly escalate. But if Iran is attacked, it will most likely try to retaliate by damaging those attacking and their interests and, by extension, the interests of friends. Tactically, this need not at all be limited to the Strait of Hormuz.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 12:53am

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Why can't we allow them to have the bomb? We certainly, at times, thought the Russians were capable of blowing us up. Remember the seven mile bridge (or was it the six mile bridge? I've driven over it but can't remember how long it was). And if what you say is true, then why put off the inevitable? Why wait for sanctions to work if it's possible they won't work and the Iranians get the bomb before we decide we have no other choice but to attack them. And it is possible they won't work. The Iranian people themselves seem to want a bomb. They may be blaming us and not their own leaders for their economy, which is a mess. Containment is probably the only answer.

- MOLLYSIMON

February 26, 2012 at 12:58am

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Those who are old enough or have read some history will recall that the usual extremist right-wingers, whose descendants are now the "mainstream" right, urged Truman to attack Russia while we had a nuclear arms monopoly in order to prevent it from developing the bomb. Truman wisely refrained. He thought the consequences, certain and uncertain, of attacking Russia to prevent it from acquiring weapons we ourselves had were beyond rational contemplation. Had he attacked Russia, it would have eventually developed the bomb anyway and would no doubt have been far more aggressive toward the nation that had attacked it. We are still here, so is Russia.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 1:09am

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Of course, the right assured us then that if we did not attack Russia we would face annihilation later. Does that sound familiar?

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 1:10am

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Still spraying your spittle at 1 o'clock in the morning, Roid?

- amidut

February 26, 2012 at 6:39am

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..

- amidut

February 26, 2012 at 6:42am

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The model of analogy should not be Iran - Soviet Union. It should be Iran - Nazi Germany.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 8:24am

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Latma, on the debate on Iran, @ 6.22; http://www.youtube.com/user/LatmaTV#p/a/8B99644BD8FE4070/0/d9yz_GyuzKE

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 8:44am

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hemo roidal halucinations aside. Comparing the Iran-Israel conflict to US-Soviet Union conflict is so asinine only an idiot like hemo roid can make it. His argument that Jewish State should sacrifice it's existence for the economic well being of it's allies (whoever they might be) is just so pathetic that only a person with their head up their ass could come up with.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 26, 2012 at 9:03am

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The wisdom of amidut. That's pretty advanced thinking for you. Have you been studying?

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 9:03am

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Makover, it is important to note that roi's "argument that Jewish State should sacrifice it's existence for the economic well being of it's allies" is formulated as: ""Israel threatens to throw us under a bus" .

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 9:19am

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hemo roid throws reason under a bus with every statement.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 26, 2012 at 9:22am

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noga: The reasoning of hemo roid. "Why do you think Iran wants to destroy Israel? "Because they said so!" "So, they said, so what?"

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 26, 2012 at 9:30am

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The reasoning of hemo roid. " "Why do you think Iran wants to destroy Israel? "Because they said so!" "So, they said, so what?" _____________ :) Serene Flatulence's line from the Latma link above. (I like his Hebrew name better: Nod Ragoo'a, or, as I would have translated it: Farto Tranquillo)

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 9:51am

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Farto Tranquillo is too tranquil description for the inflamed hemo roid.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 26, 2012 at 9:56am

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Only pointed that it's the same line of argument, not that our roi is anything like Nod Ragoo'a ...

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 10:14am

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Yes, the stakes in the conflict between the US and the Soviet Union were much greater than that between Iran and Israel, and the threat to the US was much more grave. First, the Soviet Union, after Truman wisely refrained from bombing to try to prevent it from acquiring nuclear weapons, had weaponry comparable to that of the US, including thermonuclear weapons. There is a huge imbalance between Israel and Iran as the likelihood that Iran could obtain such weapons is slight while Israel already has them. Further, those weapons are mounted on submarines, quite proof from any Iranian preemptive attack. The US and Soviet Union competed in submarine technology under the ocean for decades. There is no prospect of Iran doing the same. Second, the Soviet Union possessed enormous land forces and a considerable navy that were themselves a direct threat to the US and allies in Western Europe. It was not at all clear that the US could defeat the Soviet Union in a conventional war and plenty of reason to think the US might be the loser in such a war. The preponderance of conventional arms in the Middle East decisively favors Israel. Third, despite its belligerent rhetoric, Iran has no geopolitical interest in direct conflict with Israel. Iran would like to extend its power to the area that surrounds it, particularly to holding sway over the other oil producing states in the Gulf. Israel is not in its way. To the contrary, having Israel as a nominal foe gives Iran credibility in the Sunni world that would otherwise view it as nothing but an enemy. Hence, in terms of Iran's geopolitical interests, there is nothing to be gained by nuclear war with Israel other than its own certain annihilation. Iran would not then wield power or leadership in the Moslem world or anywhere else. It would not exist. As economics is among the vast array of adult subjects that are beyond makover's understanding, he cannot of course appreciate that a big spike in oil prices has the very real possibility of precipitating a worldwide depression at a time when the world economy and financial structure remain in the grip of a crisis. If such an event occurred, many people would suffer, millions or billions. Many would likely succumb to a variety of ills that accompany poverty in the absence of economic activity. As between the likelihood that Israel can successfully prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons and the likelihood that Israel will fail while precipitating a severe economic crisis for the rest of the world, I would have to say that the latter is far more likely than the former. If the world, or even the western world, acts in concert, there is both a much greater likelihood of success and a much greater ability to avoid adverse consequences. But Israel does not want to act in concert (not the same thing as getting the US to do its dirty work for it, something it clearly would like to do). Israel prefers to go it alone. Why? Because it is tiny and beleaguered, and everything in Israel is a matter of ultimate survival (don't forget the Holocaust). Israel therefore chooses diplomatic isolation for the sake of its survival which depends (you guessed it) on . . . building a few apartments in Jerusalem, in the memorable words of Martin Peretz. My god, could the stakes possibly be higher? Not that the well-being of the anyone else in the world should concern Israel. We all understand that Israel's only concern is Israel. However, that is not the case for the rest of us. While we can anticipate that Israel will pursue its interests as it sees them, with quite clearly little if any regard for ours, it is our job to pursue our interests as we see them, with not much regard for those of Israel where its interests diverge from ours. It is Israel, after all, that is dependent on us, not vice versa. Thus, if it is the job of either party in this asymmetrical relationship to take account of the interests of the other, that is for Israel to do. If it is not in our interest, as I am quite sure it is not, for Israel to start a war with Iran at this time, then we would be negligent if we did not exert our power to prevent that from happening, no matter how hysterical Israelis become. If we cannot or will not prevent Israel from acting against our interests, then we should get as far away as possible from the deed and hope that the consequences fall mainly upon Israel. ____________________________ As anyone can see from his extensive writings here, makover's expertise is not geopolitical affairs, economics, military affairs, or pretty much anything else of interest here. Makover's expertise is the tushy. That is the subject about which he can write with gusto and knowledge born of intimate experience. However, given his intellectual limits, I think he might well communicate more effectively if, instead of trying to write -- an embarrassment to himself and to Israel -- he asked his nanny, noga, for a big box of crayons and stuck to drawing. His fingerpaintings would also no doubt be of great interest to all.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 10:19am

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It is not at all farfetched that Iran would like to destroy Israel. The question is whether there is any appetite in Iran even to attempt to destroy Israel if the certain consequence would be Iran's own complete annihilation, pretty much down to the very last human being and human artifact. No matter. When the going gets tough, the tough get hysterical AND build apartments. What else?

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 10:23am

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Ahh. Makover's nanny, noga, is developing his taste for nursery school bathroom humor. My suggestion, children, is that you all say "underpants" a dozen times in a row. Then you can dissolve on the floor in paroxysms of laughter convinced that you have made a tremendous contribution to intelligent debate on the question of Iranian pursuit of nuclear arms. Funny noises would be good too. Don't you think? I have to reflect on the question whether it any longer serves a purpose to point out explicitly that you are a collection of morons. It may be bringing coals to Newcastle and counter-productive.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 10:27am

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What a useless series of posts. Some are too stupid to be believed some are nasty. There isn’t a coherent conversation here, not one. This is like children in a sandbox divided into little groupies yelling insults. Makaver, and Naga attacking Rod and the ever faithful Mally. Yes, yes you are so right Rod. Say it again can’t get enough of your wisedom. Then there faithless Jaime Chu who just loves Naga and hates Rod hates Aron and hates Baseman hates anyone who is smarter than he is. He asks mirror, mirror on the wall who is the dumbest of them all and the mirror is struck dumb. Then there are the occasional nasty posters, nasty Aron and nasty Baseman. What a circus. It’s funny because there is nothing at stake in these moronic diatribes.

- nr106646

February 26, 2012 at 10:33am

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Hey, nr, I do my best to stay on topic. But the nasty little children have to be disciplined, else conversation is rendered impossible. (What they obviously strive for if it is not conversation they approve of.)

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 10:50am

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roi, you have nothing to brag about in this thread. You are a proven, self-confessed liar and a mob inciter. That is the kinder reading. The less kind is that you really are in the grip of some terrible mental illness that makes you hallucinate about your own greatness and omnipotence.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 10:56am

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There is a third possibility, that you really really have a serious reading comprehension disability. The alternative -- that it is all deliberate and premeditated malevolence -- is too uncharitable to entertain.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 10:59am

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Pffft. You have never caught me lying noga, because I don't, although I once did catch me in a mistake of fact that I promptly owned up to. Whereas, you have been caught lying often, including just above. Your nasty propaganda trick of falsely attributing noxious words to others in order to discredit them has been noted by others besides me. For an obvious sociopath like you to then declare someone else mentally unstable is just funny. MollySimon long ago dubbed you "the gargoyle of the Spine." Very apt. The circle of disgust that surrounds you gets wider by the day as it becomes undeniable how sick and toxic you are. I thank god that you are in Canada, a generally sane place where there is little harm you can do, and not in either the United States or Israel, two places where there is already an abundance of pathology.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 11:07am

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BTW, the idea about containment a la cold War solution was already suggested by Fareed Zakaria whose writings are President Obama's favourite bedtime reading. It is not too far fetched to ask whether Zakaria instructs Obama's thinking or vice versa. Martin Kramer: "Fareed Zakaria picks his historical analogy: the US deterred the USSR, so why can't Israel just deter Iran? Well, Israel took out Iraq's nuclear reactor, so why can't it just take out Iran's? It took out Syria's plant without much fuss either. Arguments are never clinched by historical analogy, because history is too rich. Historical analogy is the glib man's substitute for analysis. That's you, Fareed."

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 11:07am

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"MollySimon long ago dubbed you "the gargoyle of the Spine."" She also called me an Aspie, a bad mother, an old woman. And a few other such flattering adjectives. These tell me more about what frightens her and what kinds of challenges she faces in her own life. I am happy with molly having a bad opinion about me. I wouldn't be happy with molly having a good opinion about me. It would bother me no end. Same applies to you, only more so.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 11:15am

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I'll leapfrog most if not all of the posts here, and say, for whatever it may be worth, it is my solemn belief that no amount of bombing will succeed in "destroying Iran's nuclear program." I use the quotes not to any commenter specifically who's commented, but because it is the topic here, and again I'll say IT IS NOT POSSIBLE BY BOMBING TO DESTROY IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROGRAM!" Truthfully, it is intuition that undergirds my opinion, the inward sense that such an outcome, destruction, is impossible. Physically, materially impossible. I think even my own insane proposal, that of dropping a series of nuclear bombs over Qom, may be beyond our reach. It might be tried but would probably would fail, and it would earn us the enmity of countless nations, not alone those with majority Islamic populations, and/or governments. Nevertheless, it is our job to effectively deal with Iran, either to come to rapprochement, or some form of war that will go on for years. If I'm wrong (and I may well be wrong), and there is a strategy with greater than a 50/50 chance of succeeding, it would be better to try to implement it. I believe in the main Iran want's the respect of nations, and acknowledgement that, with whatever faults and whatever complement of evils, it is the legitimate government of Iran. I believe that acknowledgement is possible without dishonor to the United States, United Nations, or Common Market nations. Once having acknowledged such and acknowledged that as the legitimate government of Iran, it is also worthy of our respect, a pathway to as peaceful as possible mutual accord can be found. I'm no dove in this matter. If Israel were actually attacked I will make whatever efforts necessary to get myself to Israel to join in its defense. I feel that deeply committed to the security of Israel. But at all costs, sanity must prevail, war or not, and for all his passion I think Marty is off base. Reduction of violence in the region is to everyone's advantage, and that must be our continuing and sustaining goal. Dropping everything for war at this time is imprudent. It may not be avoidable—we should be prepared to throw our full military might against Iran if it does come to war, but sanity must prevail in any situation. If it doesn't then the fate of the West will surely be in the balance, and, trusting G-d, G-d always has the power of upsetting our hopes and expectations, thwarting our intentions, and rendering us defenseless. I wouldn't want under any circumstances leave it to God to sort out, if we don't make every effort toward peace. We're neither so important, nor so good, to make any assumptions. I hope my post here is coherent. It may not be, but at least you know where I stand. With Israel, ourselves, and Western Civilization, pretty much in that order.

- Tgossard

February 26, 2012 at 11:26am

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"Reduction of violence in the region is to everyone's advantage," Indeed. And bombing Iran's nuclear facilities might be the only way to achieve this overall reduction in violence for the longest term. Robert Kaplan called it "Pagan ethics" (to distinguish from the Judeo-Christian ethics of self-sacrifice). Do a little violence in order to prevent a much greater violence.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 11:37am

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"If Israel were actually attacked I will make whatever efforts necessary to get myself to Israel to join in its defense. " This is a noble sentiment but I doubt it. A tiny leakage in Japan's nuclear plant following the tsunami triggered the evacuation of population in a radius of 200 km from the place. Imagine a small nuke on Tel Aviv. All of Israel will be out of bounds. Israel stretches 424 kilometers from north to south, and its width ranges from 114 kilometers at its narrowest point. There will be very little room for wiggling any sort of defense and I doubt your wife or family will agree to such a suicidal mission on your part.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 11:45am

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noga, you're wrong on this. My (gay) husband feels exactly the same way. I/we acknowledge the potential obstacles, nevertheless we will do whatever is in our power to do. Though I am a liberal Anglo-Catholic, Israel's fate and longevity are at the top of our priorities. So it may be insane, but with all sanity and prudence, and G-d's grace, we will do what we feel we must. Not a noble sentiment at all as far as I am concerned—my rational mind tells me I'm crazy. But those are my priorities!

- Tgossard

February 26, 2012 at 12:19pm

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Tgossard: "IT IS NOT POSSIBLE BY BOMBING TO DESTROY IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROGRAM!" First, why do you assume that it will be done by "BOMBING"? Why do you think that this is the only possible approach? Here is a quote from David Horowitz's Times of Israel: "Barak is also a maverick thinker. The most decorated soldier in Israeli military history, he elevated Sayeret Matkal – the General Staff’s elite commando unit – to mythological status by doing the unexpected, not the repeatedly headlined. If the entire international community is anticipating an Osirak-style direct attack on Iranian facilities, every instinct in Barak’s maverick psyche will be screaming “no” and looking for the avenue to thwart Iran that nobody else has thought of pursuing." "If Israel were actually attacked I will make whatever efforts necessary to get myself to Israel to join in its defense." Thank you.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 26, 2012 at 12:27pm

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Tgossard: a noble sentiment. Let's pray it does not come to that.

- Tristan

February 26, 2012 at 12:44pm

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Using the disastrous consequences of the Iraq war as an excuse not to seek regime change in Iran is like saying, and many did at the time, that we shouldn't fight the Nazis because WW1 was an unnecessary and disaster. I agree that it will almost impossible to stop Iran from developing nuclear weapons that's why we need to take out the Islamic regime and make sure that they get a chance to elect a non religious government. Comparing Iran to the Soviet doesn't make sense because Iran's leadership is too divided among radical anti-Western factions and anyone one of them could start a nuclear war.

- Packard

February 26, 2012 at 12:53pm

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I don't think Asperger's is the correct diagnosis for you, noga. But I certainly can understand why MollySimon thinks there must be a clinical diagnosis for your condition. You can be very gratified by my low opinion of you. If there is a way for my opinion of you to be any lower, I myself cannot imagine what it is. As for this: "Well, Israel took out Iraq's nuclear reactor, so why can't it just take out Iran's? It took out Syria's plant without much fuss either." Horovitz in his Times of Israel piece, linked by Martin ("A few apartments in Jerusalem") Peretz, explained quite succinctly how stupid this is because of the vastly different tactical situation. If Ehud Barak can somehow figure out a way successfully ti disable Iran's nuclear program without a bombing campaign, I am sure the whole world, me included, would be grateful. It is simply characteristic, however, of the right that it refuses to acknowledge physical realities immersed as it is in fantasies of power, in this case delusions, apparently not shared by Obama, thank god, about the efficacy and consequences of bombing Iraq. If Barak has the key to the door, that would be great.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 12:58pm

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"You can be very gratified by my low opinion of you. If there is a way for my opinion of you to be any lower, I myself cannot imagine what it is. ". Once again you are hallucinating about your own greatness, importance and relevance. Your opinion, good or bad, counts for nothing around here.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 1:27pm

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Packard has pointed out how stupid it is to compare Soviet Union to the Islamic Republic of Iran and how irresponsible it is to use the lessons of Iraq war to justify doing nothing. "If Ehud Barak can somehow figure out a way successfully ti disable Iran's nuclear program without a bombing campaign, I am sure the whole world, me included, would be grateful." First of all, I doubt that you or anybody else in the president's coterie will be "grateful" for anything, because their only concern is reelection of the president. Second, are you saying that now it's only "bombing campaign" that is a problem? How about special forces, how about commando raids, how about blood, frogs or vermin? Would that be acceptable to his majesty? Would that not piss the ayatollahs off? Basically, the case against using force or any significant pressure vis a vis Iran boils down to one thing only: not pissing off the ayatollahs and the mullahs so they will not close the straits of Hormuz or otherwise stomp their little feet affecting US economic interests. It almost boils down to claiming that long term US economic interest will be actually improved by Iranians having nuclear weapons?. That MAD will improve the prospects of peace and prosperity in the Middle East? What a bunch of crap. Does anybody saying this really believes this hogwash?

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 26, 2012 at 1:30pm

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The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

- basman

February 26, 2012 at 1:34pm

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Horowitz, quoted by makeover: ". . . every instinct in Barak’s maverick psyche will be screaming 'no' and looking for the avenue to thwart Iran that nobody else has thought of pursuing." It is just thinly possible, I believe (and I have no expertise to go on), that it might be on the cards to damage Iran's nuclear sites with some other approach than an air strike. For example, commando teams with some high-tech tools. But that scenario appears to run even greater risks, for example, the capture and trial/execution of an identifiable Israeli team if something went wrong. In any case, "damage" would definitely require some considerable destructive power being smuggled into the country. Looks like we're back to an airstrike, and we've been through the plusses and minuses of those options, include the worst-case combo of (1) a partial failure to destroy key plant, (2) a massive surge of nationalist anger after such an attack that the Mullahs can gratefully jump onto as the saviors of Iranian national pride, and (3) the sense that they are now safe as the Israelis have shot their bolt.

- ironyroad

February 26, 2012 at 1:38pm

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According to Brzezinski today on Fareed Zakaria's program, most Israelis, most of the Israeli military, most of the Mossad and most of American Jews are against a strike on Iran. Only Netanyahu and the very top American Jews (imagine a sly smile full of knowing innuendo on that white pasty face) -- who are all Likkud and, so the implication goes, thus should not be heeded anyway -- are for it.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 1:47pm

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"The Obama administration leaked to the media the reason for a U.S. national security adviser’s trip to Israel as a quest to persuade the country not to attack Iran, the Republican senator and 2008 Republican presidential candidate told Candy Crowley on CNN’s “State of the Union” today. McCain alleged that the leak weakened Israel’s leverage against Iran and further strained U.S-Israeli relations. “I think the prime minister has every reason to be upset,” McCain said. “I can understand why relations are in very bad shape right now.” http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Obama-Netanyahu-McCain-Graham/2012/02/26/id/430567 This suggests that Israel is alone in this matter. Obama, de facto, is cooperating with the Iranians and promoting their interests.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 1:55pm

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I try to read every comment with the intelligence, perception, and appreciation it deserves, but at some point I wear out. What is it about Peretz that attracts every wacko in the place to come out of hiding and display his or her full-blown derangement? When I read that comment (I forget who posted it), I went and stared in the mirror for a long time. I went outside. It's a pleasant spring day, it's snowing. Soon we will plant some peas. One of the hens laid an egg. Last night, my wife and I had a pleasant dinner with our Christian friends. A few days ago, one of the members of their church, a pleasant woman trapped in a marriage with an abusive man (in part because the pastor suggests she stick it out) told me (without knowing I am Jewish) about how wonderful Jews are. (She uttered cheerful and appreciative generalizations about intelligence, contributions to culture, and so on.) I said, "I appreciate your appreciation of Jews. Although as far as I know, none of my ancestors died in the Holocaust, as a child I did hear tales of pogroms and persecution by Cossaks, so I think it is true that Jews have been punished and scapegoated excessively). Nevertheless, I think uttering generalizations -- even positive ones -- about groups based on race, religion, and other such categories, is a very dangerous practice." Well, anyway, I will stave off my dementia a little more by posting this comment, going out to work in the garden, and then heading to the gym where I will persecute and scapegoat the cardio machines and the strength machines and tell them they are evil Iranian-Muslim devices and I will pre-emptively bomb them before they go nuclear. Or transport them to Israel.

- skahn

February 26, 2012 at 1:59pm

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irony: I don't think that commando raids or other similar covert operations are out of the question but again, I don't know. It has been done before and I am confident that Israeli planners are thinking about. Yes, it has risk but everything has risks. But how would that be different than bombing? Do you think it will piss the ayatollahs any less? I think that waiting for the sanctions to bring the Iranians to heel has more risks for it has zero chance of success. The Iranians are just not going to stop. So, the only other two options are, a military action of some sort, overt or covert, or just dealing with nuclear Iran. For those who think that military action will necessarily damage West's economic recovery, raise the price of oil, close the straits of Hormuz, just wait for nuclear armed Iran. Then you are going to see some real damage to US and West's economy and standing and a real nuclear proliferation in the ME. Can you imagine the ayatollahs, flush with power, threatening everybody who does not do their bidding? Considering their bluster today, I think this is not going to be a pretty picture.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 26, 2012 at 2:01pm

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@irony: "It is just thinly possible, I believe (and I have no expertise to go on), that it might be on the cards to damage Iran's nuclear sites with some other approach than an air strike. For example, commando teams with some high-tech tools. But that scenario appears to run even greater risks, for example, the capture and trial/execution of an identifiable Israeli team if something went wrong." Lack of expertise or no, everything you wrote is correct. My guess is that it would be a combination of special forces strikes to power supplies, with cruise missiles to take out air defense installations followed by GBU 43s that would level the actual production facilities and delivery systems. NSA and the Israelis would take out everything operating on Iran's net with another SUXNET virus in conjunction with physical attacks. I don't see the probability of initial success being unreasonably low, but Iran's ability to restart soon after is anybody's guess. It would set them back, what? a year? two? No one really knows, but I don't know that anyone is trying to say it would end their program permanantly. The only way to do that would be regime change, the kind that guarantees an Iranian government favorable to permanantly ending their nuclear ambitions AND willing to put aside hostility towards Israel. A much tougher nut to crack, I'm afraid. One that will require substantial ground forces and could commit us to another A-stan level adventure. This is what I mean when I say we need to take time to let the sanctions work. If they don't work and we need to strike, fine. But that needs to be the last option. It's not about being unwilling to do whatever it takes to protect Israel or American interests, far from it. It's just simple recognition that the cost in blood will be very, VERY high.

- Tristan

February 26, 2012 at 2:08pm

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Tristan is absolutely correct. My only item of disagreement is with the time to let the sanctions work. I really don't think there is any possibility whatsoever for the Iranians to stop their quest for a nuclear weapon. None. I think anybody who thinks it will work is deceiving him/herself. For the Iranians to succumb to sanctions will signify weakness and hesitation which their national pride will never allow them to admit.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 26, 2012 at 2:22pm

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Noga, who cannot keep any logical train of thought straight in her head: Noga says; "I am happy with molly having a bad opinion about me. I wouldn't be happy with molly having a good opinion about me. It would bother me no end. Same applies to you, only more so." I say: "You can be very gratified by my low opinion of you. If there is a way for my opinion of you to be any lower, I myself cannot imagine what it is." noga says: "Once again you are hallucinating about your own greatness, importance and relevance. Your opinion, good or bad, counts for nothing around here." So what is the correct diagnosis for you, noga? Terminal stupidity? Over a period of years, you have yet to contribute a coherent thought to any dialogue here that is not movie reviews or literary ruminations (and those may be no more coherent but I don't consider myself qualified to judge). By now, it is perfectly clear that you lack the wit. Indeed, as we see above, you cannot even keep track of your own stream of effluent. You end up taking issue with your own insults. All you are able to do here is dirty the place with your filthy lies and crude smears. _________________________ It is pee wee makover, not I, who imagines that there is some physical alternative to bombing Iran (a bolt of Barak) that will magically disable Iran's nuclear capabilities. I find this pretty implausible, but I am happy to humor makover's childish views of the world to the extent if allowing how wonderful it would be. If collective pressure cannot dissuade Iran (and it certainly can if there were sufficiently concerted action as Iran can no more survive without external trade than can Israel), then Israel had best adjust itself to the reality of a nuclear-armed Iran, because that is what is going to happen, bombing or not. One way we will have a war in the Middle East of uncertain proportions, plus a nuclear-armed Iran. The other way, we will have a nuclear-armed Iran. I pick the latter, for a host of reasons, and I don't for a moment consider Netanyahu's fears or Peretz's hyper-ventiliating sufficient reason for the US to condone the former. I do, however, believe that, if Israel bombs Iran and a war results that inflicts significant damage on the west or the world, economic or otherwise, the ultimate outcome will be the US and the other permanent members of the UNSC deciding that they have had enough of turmoil in the Middle East and therefore imposing a settlement on Israel and the Palestinians. That would be a good thing, regardless of the shape the settlement takes. There is no reason for us to continue to indulge Israeli colonialist fantasies.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 2:58pm

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Here's a sobering thought, from Bret Stephens writing in that rag the WSJ nearly two years ago: "But its [Israel's] tactical margin for error will be slim, particularly since an effective strike will require days not hours. And the political risks it runs will be monumental. As Mr. Doran notes, in 1956 [the Suez campaign] it could at least count on the diplomatic support of two members of the U.N. Security Council. Today, the U.S. is its last significant friend." A testament to Netanyahu's leadership and the brilliance of the Likud fanatics.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 3:10pm

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Here is some actual intelligent thought on the problem, in both its military and political dimensions (you can skip this, noga, it won't do you any good anyway): http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/23/opinion/keller-bomb-bomb-bomb-bomb-bomb-iran.html?pagewanted=all

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 3:16pm

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So, hemo roid is inflamed again. It's a pleasure to read his inanities. What a BS. Ha ha ha..

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 26, 2012 at 3:18pm

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You know, I was going to point out the China thing, but never got around to it. That explains why we had a nuclear war with China. And, indeed, half of it survived to become a powerful force in the world economy. Seems Mao was right. Of course, Iran is rather a lot smaller than China, both in landmass and population. But as we have so many faith-based politicians, in Israel, the US, and the Moslem world, one can easily understand how Iran could expect to survive a thermonuclear barrage.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 3:21pm

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That's good, makover. If you limit yourself to one sentence, you don't sound so stupid. Of course, we all know what a moron you are because the evidence is ample. (Actually, I should say that you are bi-polar, swinging between stupidity and juvenility.) But if you constrain yourself to one sentence at a time, it's not as evident. So, crack out the crayons, bro.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 3:25pm

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malahat: The problem with thinking people in the West, nurtured on the values of logic, interests, and humanism, is that they can no longer (so it seems) get into the minds of true believers for whom no cost is too high on the way to their version of a perfect world. Irrationality simply cannot be considered rationally. Hence people do not take seriously the proposition that what the Ayatollahs, or Ahmadinejad, actually believe what they are saying.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 3:28pm

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"I should say that you are bi-polar," This reveals a lot about roi's own demons. Not that it was needed.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 3:31pm

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"The problem with thinking people in the West, nurtured on the values of logic, interests, and humanism, is that they can no longer (so it seems) get into the minds of true believers for whom no cost is too high on the way to their version of a perfect world. Irrationality simply cannot be considered rationally." What a perfect description of all the right-wingnuts, both in the US and Israel, of both the religious and secular varieties, "no cost is too high on the way to their vision of a perfect world." But irrationality can indeed be considered rationally. It is the converse that is not the case. That is why true-believers, fanatics, such as noga are incapable of understanding rational arguments against "paying any price" for their regime-change fantasies, there colonial domination fantasies, their military power fantasies. Inevitably, frustrated by their incapacity when confronted with rational argument grounded in the imperfection of the world, they can do nothing but resort to insult, gross lies, and crude smears. This is a perfect description of what drives noga's gross behavior here. One might even say that it "reveals a lot about [her] own demons. Not that it was needed."

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 3:41pm

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You are really a crack-up, noga. Your incapacity for self-reflection, and the unconscious irony that results, exceed even your other pathologies.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 3:43pm

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Noga refers to a TV interview with Brzezinski. I'm surprised that anybody still listens to him. I weary of our inane TV network news programs. He and Carter handed Iran to the Ayatollahs and were unable to resolve the US embassy hostage crisis there. If the country at stake were Poland, not Israel, he would not sound such a defeatist note or so brazenly misrepresent that country's national consensus. Contrary to some opinions expressed here, I don't think that Iranian national pride or activity will be especially inflamed by an Israeli raid. First, revolutionary Iran is already active on all fronts through all proxies. Second, many Iranians would welcome deliverance from the Ayatollahs. This problem will continue to fester as long as Obama fails to support Israeli action. The US has the resources to make a difference. We can't run away from making decisions here. Roid's misogyny and anti-semitism are quite evident to me. He is consistently rude and disrespectful to Noga and other Jewish interlocutors who are making a case for supporting Israel in this situation. The merits of his arguments no longer matter because his bad faith and hatred shines through.

- amidut

February 26, 2012 at 3:44pm

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Will the 12th occluded Mahdi arrive if Iran has been vaporized in its entirety? Do the mullahs believe so?

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 3:45pm

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roi: I think you need a nap.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 3:47pm

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And if the only alternatives in the real world are Iran becoming a nuclear-armed power and war with Iran followed by Iran becoming a nuclear-armed power anyway, toward what policy result does the fable of the 12th Mahdi, or the mullahs interpretation thereof, conduce?

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 3:48pm

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A nap would be nice, but I have legal papers to write in a pro bono matter I am handling. I really do need to stop procrastinating by toying with you here, as fun as it is.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 3:49pm

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Noga posts are like those by Chuch they must be the same person.

- nr106646

February 26, 2012 at 3:58pm

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"And if the only alternatives in the real world are Iran becoming a nuclear-armed power and war with Iran followed by Iran becoming a nuclear-armed power anyway, toward what policy result does the fable of the 12th Mahdi, or the mullahs interpretation thereof, conduce?" This is a good example of what I suggested earlier that thinking people in the West are incapable of understanding the irrationality of true believers. Roi actually imagines that such rational cause and effect play a part in the ayatollahs' calculations.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 4:10pm

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Oops, just before I go, there is this: "Roid's misogyny and anti-semitism are quite evident to me. He is consistently rude and disrespectful to Noga and other Jewish interlocutors who are making a case for supporting Israel in this situation. The merits of his arguments no longer matter because his bad faith and hatred shines through." First of all, it is always, without exception, as was the case here, noga and makover and the rest of the boob squad (are these the stupidest Israelis ever or what?) who resort first to personal attack, insult and the like, leaving aside the psychotic JaimeChuch who does nothing else. Here is the first instance, by noga, on this thread: 02/25/2012 - 10:51am EDT | noga1 although I had said nothing whatever to or about her. Makover waits a while and then joins noga's party here: 02/25/2012 - 12:28pm EDT | makover although I have likewise said nothing to our about him. So, you see, amidut, you are either deliberately lying or unwilling to extend any effort to confirm your imagined truth. It is quite obvious to anyone who pays any attention here that it is almost without exception the self-declared friends of Israel who cannot abide any argument and, sooner or later but usually sooner, resort to personal insult, smears, and lies. When insults come back, they whimper and whine that they are being victimized. The same sad story, replayed over and over again. As for amidut's charges of misogyny and anti-semitism, these are but more smears, designed to give amidut a veneer of liberality even as he levies them. Let me assure you, amidut, that I do not deplore noga because she is a woman, or Jewish, or a Jewish woman. I deplore her because she is deplorable, a liar and smear artist. I do not deplore makover because he is not a woman, or Jewish, or a Jewish not-a-woman. I deplore him because he is a weenie little boy who cannot conduct himself like an intelligent adult and thus has no place participating here. Both of them are insufferably rude on a good day. The rest of the time, much worse. Nor do I deplore Israel's violations of international law because I hate Jews. Some of (well actually, all of my family including myself) are Jewish. Every single member of my synagogue is Jewish. I live immersed in a Jewish world. I deplore Israel's violations of international law because they are deplorable in their own right and because they serve to perpetuate a conflict that threatens the Jewish people in particular and all of us in one way or another. I detest all right-wingnuts, the Jewish ones and the non-Jewish ones, male and female, alike, for the reasons noga so aptly described above. They are irrational and "no cost is too high on the way to their vision of a perfect world." If the costs were to be paid by the right-wingnuts themselves, then I would be all for it, egging them on. But the costs are paid by all of us, and I cannot bear the thought of everyone who must pay the price for their craziness, arrogance, and greed. Now, what on earth does that have to do with misogyny or anti-semitism? Nothing, that's what. Now, behave yourself, amidut.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 4:14pm

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"nr106646 Noga posts are like those by Chuch they must be the same person." NR, it is very bad form to use one person as a swearword for another. It is the kind of disgusting method used by bigots when they want to smear someone, like in "Don't Jew me!". Your own thinking and comments have hardly been very impressive. That might account for your boring attempts at gratuitous and failed insults.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 4:20pm

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I repeat the question as noga quite fairly fails to comprehend its meaning: "And if the only alternatives in the real world are Iran becoming a nuclear-armed power and war with Iran followed by Iran becoming a nuclear-armed power anyway, toward what policy result does the fable of the 12th Mahdi, or the mullahs interpretation thereof, conduce?" This allows for the very apocalyptic views that malahat recites, although I question whether Iran or the mullahs and ayatollahs are prepared to see their country annihilated to bring forth the 12th Mahdi. Even so, what if these are the only realistic alternatives along with the possibility, difficult to be sure, that the world can be brought to the point of imposing sufficient pain on Iran to bend its will in the matter?

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 4:21pm

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Also, our convictions aren't sentiment in anyway. Both myself and my partner grew up in Jewish neighborhoods, particularly myself where all but one of my close friends, that includes my closest, were/are Jews. It also stems from both our upbringings, our respective mothers the strongest opposed to injustice. I do admit to some bravado in declaring my beliefs and commitments. I would temper that in making a decision about going or not. I'd also want to be certain I'd be useful in Israel's defense, or whether money and prayers could be preferable. In sum, I stand with Israel because I love that country as I love my own, and I know it must not be trampled on, let alone...well, you know as well as anyone know what Iran's Ayatollahs, Hamas, Hezbollah et al. obsessions are.

- Tgossard

February 26, 2012 at 4:22pm

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"Now, behave yourself, amidut." Or else the mob inciter and slanderer will show you what's what.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 4:22pm

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"any way..."

- Tgossard

February 26, 2012 at 4:24pm

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"Don't Jew me!" is a smear against Jews. "You must be Chuch," is a smear against whom exactly? Cannot smear Chuch for being foul-mouthed, as he is, so that's out. Cannot be a smear against the person being accusing of being Chuch unless the comparison is inapt. "We report, you decide." And so, the circle of disgust widens.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 4:27pm

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"..well, you know as well as anyone know what Iran's Ayatollahs, Hamas, Hezbollah et al. obsessions are." Their work is partly made in America, by the likes of Prof. Abukhalil, professor of political science at California State University, Stanislaus and visiting professor at UC, Berkeley: "Donate now, damn it Support Electronic Intifada. When Israel goes down, EI will provide live minute-by-minutes updates. Posted by As'ad AbuKhalil at 8:12 AM"

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 4:29pm

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You do not allow that Iran has any internal political life, malahat, and that all of these things can be understood in that light, not in the light of millenarianism.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 4:29pm

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"Or else the mob inciter and slanderer will show you what's what." I like to give people a second chance to do the right thing. Call me a softie.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 4:33pm

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In order to understand why NR's using Chuch as a swearword is morally repellent you would have to have some understanding of how decency works, roi. And, alas, you are quite disabled in that department. I wouldn't expect much from you just as I wouldn't expect a colour-blind person to know the colour red. In fact every exchange with you is like trying to explain colour to a blind person (not just colour-blind).

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 4:34pm

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"I like to give people a second chance to do the right thing." From roi's keyboard this is tantamount to mafiaspeak, in the same bracket as "I made him an offer he couldn't refuse".

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 4:36pm

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"Their work is partly made in America, by the likes of Prof. Abukhalil, professor of political science at California State University, Stanislaus and visiting professor at UC, Berkeley" Yes. Or possibly no. Apparently this individual was a visiting professor at Berkeley for one semester many years ago, with no evidence that I have seen that suggests his views on Israel were the reason he had that slot. Which goes to show that one good thing about America is that one gets to hold an academic job on broader criteria of evaluation than one's opinions on a particular political issue.

- ironyroad

February 26, 2012 at 4:40pm

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The questions roidubouloi and others ask are good ones, but the answers may not be what they think they are. In any case we jumping the gun here on Iran since the more more immediate problem (and what this blog is about) is Syria. I have been posting for a while now that the Syrian internal conflict (that's what it is) doesn't lend itself ti simple solutions and that whatever is done other Sunni extremists and Iran will become embroiled in the conflict. There is an article behind the pay wall on Syria today in the NY Times that finally discusses these wider ramification. Iran's nuclear program is part of this wider conflict and it doesn't just involve Israel. This is why all the hand wringing as well as the bravado is besides the point. For example the US is beefing up its defenses in the Persian gulf and it's not to support Israel. Also a couple of Iran's warships visited Syria showed the flag and left. There are actual events on the ground that will decide what is going to happen and Israel's desire to knock out the Iranian nuclear sites is only one of them. Most posters here being Jewish they naturally think that Israel is the central player in this drama. It isn't. It is an important player but not the only one or even the central one. I suggest people give their fingers a rest and do some more reading on these issues and wait for further development.

- arnon

February 26, 2012 at 4:46pm

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It is impossible to see how Roid can be a pillar of the Jewish community as he claims. He lacks any semblance of ahavat yisrael. He is too involved with himself to care about the needs of the community, much less the State of Israel. Nobody would trust him with a leadership position.

- amidut

February 26, 2012 at 4:47pm

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"This allows for the very apocalyptic views that malahat recites, although I question whether Iran or the mullahs and ayatollahs are prepared to see their country annihilated to bring forth the 12th Mahdi." Exactly. It comes down to what you believe the Iranian's end game is. And frankly, if they wanted Armageddon, they could have had it by now, I'm sure. By the way, it's quite cute how makover thinks the Iranians would welcome any conquerers as their liberators. That level of innocence is rather sweet.

- MOLLYSIMON

February 26, 2012 at 4:51pm

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By the way, Malahat, this regime knows it'll never get so bad that China and Russia will refuse to trade with them. They may be down, but they're just not desperate. They have something others want and they know it.

- MOLLYSIMON

February 26, 2012 at 4:54pm

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"It is impossible to see how Roid can be a pillar of the Jewish community as he claims." I don't think he ever claimed that. He did claim that he was a semi profesional politician with an entourage of admirers who were amazed by the effectiveness of his methods (we know what they are) in some local elections. He didn't manage to win the election for his candidate but apparently his greatness is legend in those parts. He also once bragged that he has lots of money, many houses all over the world and the leisure to travel and enjoy them, like a real bon vivant. He is participating on these boards by way of repaying to society. It's his way of doing his duty, making up for all that good living that he does. Roi also said once that he prefers to celebrate his Seder with his non-Jewish friends. He had a reason for it. I forget what it was.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 5:01pm

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whoever asked for source on Israel's shale oil reserves, Bret Stephens wrote about it in April in the WSJ. I admit it is tiresome for some to always demand I provide sources, when anyone here can Google whatever. Since it happens to mostly be Texans deeply involved in helping Israel develop both the offshore natural gas and the onshore shale oil, well y'all, Have At It :) In between the verbal duelling in what appears to be 24 hours since I was online, 02/25/2012 - 9:14pm EDT | Tristan asked "Perhaps we cold try and get back to the conversation at hand. ... Thoughts?" I assume he meant "could" although a bio-weapon that gives every Persian in Iran a nasty cold is not a bad idea. Seriously, Iran is less than 50% Persian - STRATFOR's ethno-religious map of Iran is fascinating - the Persians are actually surrounded by minorities, several of whom are official members of UNPO.org, where Unrecognized Peoples committed to non-violence seek self-determination. The Persians are the ones who are descended from the Safavids, who decided to go State Shi'a, and cultivate this 12th Imam millenialist ideology. That is why you always have to ask a Shi'a if he/she is a Twelver. I have studied this enough to be convinced that a Twelver theocracy is NOT rational, and should not be allowed to have full nuclear weapon capability. I also know enough about Persian-Iranian history to know that giving the current Ayatollahs "respect" is not an option that will change their minds about nukes. They are engaged in a 1400-year schism with the Sunnis (in addition to the pawn of colonial empires for more than 200 of those years), and Shi'ite control of Mecca and Medina is at the top of their agenda. The Safavids decided that Jews were to be destroyed around 1700 (Christ years). While I believe today's Twelvers really do believe three hundred years of this message (Pahlavi rule was the exception), the threat to Israel is not necessarily nuclear Holocaust, but the threat of it to destabilize Israel so much that all the Jews leave. It is far more likely that a nuclear Iran would actually use such a weapon on New York City, where so many Jews live, and there is no oil. As to the idea of covert Barakian out-of-the-box tactics? You bet. Iran has Kurds, Azeris, Baluchis, and Lur who would be more than happy to be the covert boots on the ground. Is it really so technologically impossible to trigger a real earthquake in the epicenter of fault lines? Ok, I am not attempting a persuasive essay here, where I make my points to build to a conclusion. I just happen to think that shale oil in both Israel, the USA, and China are a geopolitical game-changer that make Iran a nation that could very well devolve to the Persian center that is an economic colony of China or India - either way, the Shi'a theocracy really must hate that possibility. The prize for anyone who read this far is: http://www.oilinisrael.net My opinion about the shale oil in Colorado is that, if necessary, the entire state of Colorado should be seized via eminent domain in order to simultaneously solve all the related issues of the USA being oil-independent. Plenty of empty houses in Detroit and upstate New York for all the Coloradans. Amazing how only three years of Obama has moved climate change from being my #3 issue to not even on the list :) I think it is too late to change the CO2 levels, and we might as well be enjoying life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, or at least the idea of not worrying about how much gasoline costs before we make a trip to the nearest supermarket.

- K2K

February 26, 2012 at 5:13pm

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Well, ironyroad, as you put your trust in AbuKhalil's credentials, so do I. If he claims on his website that he is "visiting professor at UC, Berkeley" I see no reason why I should disbelieve him, and trust your information. In a recent tour at British universities he is introduced as the "Lebanease-American professor of political science at California State University, Stanislaus". Apparently this gives him an aura of authority and respectability. I cannot quite distinguish between the honorable prof you see and the angry Arab I see. How exactly do you draw the line, when he is being hosted by academic institutions as an academic from an American University ? "As'ad Abu Khalil, the well known political speaker, will be doing a speaking tour at British universities in January! The department of Arabic and Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Leeds will be hosting him on the 25th of January. He will be speaking about what's been happening in Palestine & the Middle East lately, and there will be a Q&A session at the end. As'ad Abu Khalil (aka The Angry Arab) is a Lebanease-American professor of political science at California State University, Stanislaus. He maintains an extremely interesting blog, The Angry Arabs News Service."

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 5:14pm

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amidut "It is impossible to see how Roid can be a pillar of the Jewish community as he claims." I doubt that Roid has very many non-Jewish friends. I know many Jews who live in New York City who think that the whole world is like their city. Here in Buffalo it's very different. We know of how little consequence we are.

- nr106646

February 26, 2012 at 5:16pm

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Yes, and the right-wingnuts would say that I cannot love America because I deplore Bush, Reagan, Santorum, Bachmann, Gingrich, Palin, McConnell, Cantor, etc., etc. and pretty much everything they stand for and want to do to my country. So what? This is the accusation of self-declared über-patriots since the dawn of time. As for politics, under my tutelage, the local Democrats swept (as in winning all legislative races), three election cycles in a row. By the time I was done, there were no Republicans holding any significant office. Most recently, we won two out of three. Won the two races in which I plotted the strategy, tactics, and wrote most of the campaign literature. Lost the third race in which I didn't.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 5:19pm

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Actually, nr, I have many, and also in places all over the world, France, England, India, Australia, China, Hong Kong, even in Israel, and in the heart of darkness itself, Texas. If you say that you all in Buffalo are of no consequence, I have to accept that at face value. I have no basis upon which to disagree with you.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 5:23pm

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"As for politics, under my tutelage... " You see how great roi is? A legend in his own time. And so many friends all over the world. Non-Jews, too. Consider the achievement!

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 5:32pm

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"Roi also said once that he prefers to celebrate his Seder with his non-Jewish friends. He had a reason for it. I forget what it was." Has to do with the story of Passover, stranger in a strange land and all. Gives the story a certain resonance when shared with non-Jews and avoids some of the self-congratulation and victimhood that I don't enjoy. Read it sometime. But then, I also enjoy celebrating Passover at my sister's kibbutz. Truth is, I don't really pick my friends based on their religious beliefs. I hang with the people I like and admire and whose company I enjoy. And I don't spend a lot of time analyzing why. Inevitably I find this leads to a wide circle of friends with very varied backgrounds, and I do enjoy that. Among my very favorite people are a Lebanese woman who lives in Paris, a Persian couple who also live in Paris, and a German woman married to a Jewish man who live in DC. You just cannot plan that sort of thing. Life happens.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 5:33pm

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The same goes for you, Roid, if you say that you have many friends who are non-Jews I have no way of verifying that. You don't write, though, as if you knew many non-Jews.

- nr106646

February 26, 2012 at 5:36pm

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I'm wondering how the religion of one's friends impacts his/her style of writing.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 5:45pm

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malahat: The crucial difference is that Mao never threatened to use nuclear weapons, let alone to annihilate a specific country with them. Actually, Mao created the policy of guangrong mama (glorious mother) wherein women had many kids (the one child policy happened after Mao died) was because he believed a larger population would likely have more survivors of a nuclear war (he really was that stupid). If the Chinese had nukes in 1950 they would have used them against US troops. As it is they didn't get them until the 60's, at which time Mao and the politburo were more worried about Russia (in fact, even at the height of the cultural revolution, the Chinese allowed CIA listening posts in Xinjiang in western China, they set this up via the British in Hong Kong) As to this general topic, I don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. I have 3 kids under 10 years old, the economy is tenuous enough as it is so to be honest I am only viewing this from the framework of how it would affect me and my family.

- blackton

February 26, 2012 at 5:48pm

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Come to think of it, my friends in Paris are not Persian. They are Iranian, but of Azeri extraction.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 5:50pm

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How would one write, nr, if one knew many non-Jews?

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 5:51pm

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"As for politics, under my tutelage... " It's just what happened. What is is. As to what anyone else thinks about it, I don't know, except that the local Republicans hate me. I always considered it important to share credit as widely as possible.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 5:54pm

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I am not talking about your argument which may be true or not. I am also not talking about religion. Any Jew who is ex[posed to lots of non Jewish acquaintances would have a more realistic sense about the situation of Jews in the world. New York Jews that I have known and also some from L.A. and who lived all their lives among Jews think that the whole world is like their little Jewish enclave.

- nr106646

February 26, 2012 at 5:59pm

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malahat, I am not sure if you misread me. The one child policy was adopted in 1979, a few years after Mao died. The last few years of his life he also was pretty out of it, pretty much incomprehensible. And the famine that happened is because the lower party officials all presented glowing news to him, which was reported in the press, which made most people in the countryside to assume there was abundance elsewhere so why work so hard, that and cockamamie agricultural theories (plant twice as much wheat on the same land, double your output, with the peasant farmers too cowed to argue). He really was a dumb peasant who got some things right (organize other dumb peasants for revolution) but was a disaster in power. If he died in 1950, then people like Liu Xiaoqi and Deng would have come to power much earlier. but this is off topic. sorry for the diversion, this topic itself is something I have no idea whasoever to figure out.

- blackton

February 26, 2012 at 6:51pm

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Noga: "I cannot quite distinguish between the honorable prof you see and the angry Arab I see." Why should you? He's clearly both -- I mean, he must do something to draw his pay every month beyond polemicizing against Israel, but his hobby seems to take up some time, I agree. What I mean is, he may be a very deserving target for attack due to his blog, but his academic career isn't immediately relevant to that as we don't know too much about it. For my part, I don't like the idea that I would be reviewed at my next promotion for my opinions expressed on matters outside the university.

- ironyroad

February 26, 2012 at 7:14pm

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Interesting thesis, nr. Get out of Buffalo much? I've lived in the Midwest, New England, New York, in the city and out, as well as in Paris. One of my good friends in Paris consults to an African head of state and is very well connected to the upper echelons of the French political establishment. His views on Pakistan largely inform my own. My Iranian friend is a distinguished international lawyer who speaks Hebrew and counsels the Israeli government about political affairs in Iran. (He, by the way, is also adamant that Israel should not be entitled to a monopoly on nuclear weapons in the Middle East although he is a supporter of Israel. We have argued, politely, about this, as regards sanctions, not as regards war on Iran.) He has published, two books I believe, on Iranian political affairs and I obviously place great store in what he says about Iran. My niece and her husband were both IDF intelligence officers, she decorated for her service by the president of Israel. My brother-in-law is on the board of the JNF, not exactly the upper reaches of Israeli political affairs, but he gets around. I get to talk to all of them, in addition to lots of other people around the world. You seem to take it for granted that anyone who understands the real nature of threats to Israel would approve of right-wingnut responses, although there is abundant evidence that the right-wingnuts are fantasists and idealists, not realists at all, who cause nothing but trouble. Hence you infer that someone who doesn't agree with them must lead a sheltered existence. Who and what are shaping your views?

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 7:18pm

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You don't want a political witchhunt on American university campuses, irony? Shame on you.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 7:19pm

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From what you write, your friends are part of the "one percent." I was born in Buffalo and lived here most of but not all of my life. I have live in the Alabama, in Kansas and California. I have traveled to Lyon to Florence, to Tel Aviv, and London. I will be going to Japan soon. Probably not as worldly as you are but I have visited a few places here and there.

- nr106646

February 26, 2012 at 7:52pm

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roi is trying to establish his credentials as an insider in circles of power. One wonders with such great friends and connections, so many important friends all over world, consultants to the Israeli PM, so much money and many houses everywhere, what's he doing on the message boards of TNR, wasting his time trading insults with and trying to impress, unknown posters of no consequence whatsoever.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 7:55pm

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To no surprise, you interpret what I am "doing" as what you imagine you would be doing if you were in my shoes. I did in fact want to respond to nr's surmise that my views are the result of living an insular life in a privileged Jewish community, but I don't really think authority has much bearing on what is said here (or in most places for that matter) and hence no reason or desire to try and establish authority. I wanted to debunk the surmise, not more. Arguments are either persuasive or not based on the way they marshal facts and connect them to history, experience, and logic. While there are many nuances and details that can only be judged by people with some insider knowledge, the broad outlines of what is discussed here are accessible to absolutely anyone who is willing to take arguments on their merits, or lack thereof, and deal with them on that basis. The converse is that any argument should be taken on its merits and not evaded by trying to discredit the person who makes it. You are unable to marshal facts and connect them to anything in an organized way, and likely have no understanding of what is being said when others do, beyond a general feeling of frustration that you don't know how to respond in the forceful and convincing way that would be responsive to your emotions. Hence your endless resort to insults, smears, etc., etc. If you paid attention, you would see that I don't make claims of authority, my own or that of someone else. I state a point of view and try to do it in a persuasive way. If I disagree, I explain the reasons for my disagreement. Nothing prevents you from at least trying to do the same other than laziness. As for why I do what I do here, it is because I want to experiment with rhetoric and arguments without the constraints that accompany discourse as a moderately public person. The experiment includes finding out just how much or little it takes to handle those who are abusive.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 8:57pm

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I'll take Roi at his word that he belongs to upper reaches of society and takers tea or whatever with the international gentry and that he shuns the hoi polloi. The point of view of his posts agrees with this view. he expresses the point of view of an international elite. It's a legitimate point of view but it is held by about one percent of the population, if that many, and those like Molly who would like to belong to that world.

- nr106646

February 26, 2012 at 8:57pm

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Well, nr, that's a first. Usually I am accused of resenting the rich and so forth and so on. But, whether the views expressed here are those of "the upper reaches of society" or the hoi polloi, or of members or non-members within some other scheme of classifying people, should not be relevant here. The question is whether what is said is persuasive on the merits. Part of the point of anonymity is that the identity of the speaker, or surmises about that identity, should not get in the way.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 9:17pm

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"The question is whether what is said is persuasive on the merits. Part of the point of anonymity is that the identity of the speaker, or surmises about that identity, should not get in the way." Apparently you are not convinced. Why else would you trot out tales of your money, many houses and higher connections with consultants to world governments and what not? If all this has no weight whatsoever how come we know about it? You, known for "resenting the rich" when you made a point of bragging about how rich you were? Judging by the way you present your positions here, your clearly irresistible need to sidle up to mostly non-Jewish posters, and your inclination to insults of the lowest low, I wouldn't take your word for anything.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 9:31pm

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"... I mean, he must do something to draw his pay every month beyond polemicizing against Israel, but his hobby seems to take up some time, I agree." Hobby? You call this his "hobby"? Would you be so sanguine about a professor whose hobby was to promote racist theories in his "spare time" against black people, against Obama, in the same way that Abukhalil devotes his time to incite for hatred against Israelis and 'Zionists"?

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 9:37pm

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Any well articulated coherent position is partly persuasive. You position is well argued and is persuasive in part, but not completely.

- nr106646

February 26, 2012 at 9:37pm

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Only logically programmed robots respond only to arguments without taking account of point of view and context.

- nr106646

February 26, 2012 at 9:49pm

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Noga, i don't know what you are talking about. You post are full of heat but lack light.

- nr106646

February 26, 2012 at 9:52pm

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I am back from the gym. I can't believe I read all the comments, each more intelligent than the one before and after, depending on how you look at it. One in particular, caught my attention when it said, As to this general topic, I don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. I have 3 kids under 10 years old, the economy is tenuous enough as it is so to be honest I am only viewing this from the framework of how it would affect me and my family.. I rather liked that comment, though my case isa little different. I only have one kid, and I only have one grandchild, and as she has two mommies she doesn't have any of my genes. In any case, I am sure her mommies would not allow her to read TNR. She is a very bright child, and I suspect if she were reading this thread, she would quickly choose not to read more than one or two comments. Boring I am sure she would say. Also she is very sentimental and gets very upset when I point out that humans are omnivores. Though she did tell me something she had learned in school about the guillotine and the French Revolution, so I think she is rather mixed up. So maybe she is ready to read the typical TNR comment. Maybe I will adopt her as a persona (perhaps calling her Juanita Swift or Aristophana, or some such) and post a few comments as if she had written them.

- skahn

February 26, 2012 at 11:14pm

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nr, I am more than happy to have perceived flaws in my arguments pointed out, or to hear other, more persuasive, arguments advanced. That's really the whole point. But I really don't think that the identity and character of the speaker, for good or ill, should be relevant. I have said here over and over again that the posts, and not the posters, are the proper subject of discussion here, and I wish that's how the discussions were conducted. If the speaker's point of view and context really are relevant to the argument, as opposed to whether the speaker should be considered credible, then sure, that should be considered. In general, however, I think that is rarely the case especially when the posters are anonymous to begin with. After all, we are not here making any decision that has an affect on the world in which case the possible biases of the speakers would be important information. We are just talking. The rounds of insults are, frankly, ridiculous. They are a distraction at best from what everyone wants to be discussing. However, I don't think particular people should have a license to hijack discussion, to divert attention from what people are saying with insults and try to drown them out with noise. If they resort to insult and invective, I give it right back to them and will do so for as it long as it takes. I try to follow a rule of never being the first to resort to such behavior, and I often let one or even two go by in the hope that the abusive behavior will extinguish by itself. But I am no pacifist and will not allow myself to be the target of abuse without punching back as hard as I know how. ____________________ noga says: "Apparently you are not convinced. Why else would you trot out tales of your money, many houses and higher connections with consultants to world governments and what not? If all this has no weight whatsoever how come we know about it? You, known for "resenting the rich" when you made a point of bragging about how rich you were?" When necessary to rebut the various suppositions, generally imaginary and inventive, that other posters make about me in order to discredit what I am saying, I am willing to trot out biographical information. Then, hopefully, we can get back to the subject at hand. When, for example, in economic discussions with right-wing libertarians they get around to the standard right-wing trope that my views are "envy of the rich," it is useful to point out that I am rich and hence envy of the rich is hardly the reason for my point of view. You too like to engage in this sort of irrelevant speculation about people in your constant efforts to discredit speakers rather than to rebut what they say. When necessary, I provide the details to show that your speculation is wide, usually very wide, of the mark. Your latest little trope, that has my supposedly "sidling up to this one or that one" is just another version of a smear technique. Sometimes I agree with other posters and say so. I have even publicly agreed with JaimeChuch in the past couple of days. So what? Sometimes something they say strikes as a useful point of departure for something I want to say and I refer to it. So what? Your claim that I am "sidling up to non-Jewish posters" is astonishing. You never have me sidling up to basman who is Jewish, and with whom I often agree but also at times disagree with very amicably. You never have me sidling up to MollySimon who is Jewish and with whom I often agree. But if I refer to something irony said, I am in your mind, sidling. I don't give any thought to the religion of the people I agree with or disagree with, unless they insist on making it an issue somehow, as you do. This is all in your head. Part of your obsession, actually a fetish I would say, with anti-Semitism Jewish victimhood as the defining elements of the world.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 11:16pm

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It doesn't matter what you are aware of doing, roi. The pattern that emerges is unmistakable and your unawareness only means that it comes naturally to you to act like this (sidling up to the non-Jews). It's sad to see it, since you do seem to hold yourself in such a high esteem. "When necessary to rebut the various suppositions, generally imaginary and inventive, that other posters make about me in order to discredit what I am saying, I am willing to trot out biographical information. " What utter nonsense. No one here made any assumption about your financial situation or connections. No serious commenter cares about such information. You voluntarily served these details about yourself, as if they were some sort of a rabbit you produced from a hat, a triumphant put down or whatever. You actually thought people would be impressed by your bragging. It was quite an extraordinary exhibition, the way you paraded yourself in this manner. Sad in a way, too. And this attempt at blaming others for your own silliness is really so infantile. What are you, a kindergarten kid?

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 11:41pm

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"nr106646 Noga, i don't know what you are talking about. You post are full of heat but lack light." I wasn't talking to you, that's why you don't understand. Perhaps you didn't notice but you are not interesting to me. Sorry about that.

- noga1

February 26, 2012 at 11:46pm

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Just another case of your bigotry and paranoia showing through, noga. Your notion that I am "sidling" up to anyone is ridiculous, a complete invention of your overheated imagination. And you have me sidling up to non-Jewish posters because you are obsessed with who is a Jew and who is not and choose to notice me commenting favorably, or making reference, to something a non-Jewish poster says (something you observe as I don't care) while failing to notice when the poster is Jewish (something I also don't care about). I never offer personal details other than to rebut some incorrect surmise by another poster, including you. I observe this rule consistently as I do my rule not to be the first one to resort to personal insult. It is your perverse, inverted view of the world that prevents you from observing that it is always you who first engages in this behavior and always you who claims to be victimized by it. Similarly, you are unable to observe that I don't talk about myself except in response to attempts, often by you as it is standard in your toolkit of smear techniques, to invent a fictional persona for me. I want allow myself to be abused by you with pounding you to a pulp (not that hard) and I won't allow you, or any other poster, to invent a fictional persona and attempt to attach it to me. That's all there is to it. I do understand that you have nothing at all to brag about even if you wanted to. Perhaps that lies at the root of your mental condition.

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 11:57pm

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"abused by you without pounding you to a pulp"

- roidubouloi

February 26, 2012 at 11:58pm

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No, logical flaws, or at least I haven't read your posts closely enough to discern any. What I question is some primary assumptions and analogies: is the Cold War scenario comparable to the one looming with Iran. The future will tell (I am not a soothsayer) but I am not convinced that it is. Iran is engaged in an undeclared war (conflict if you like) not just with Israel, or the West, but against the Sunni States in the Arabs world and probably in Afghanistan and Pakistan ( I believe that Iran had one time conquered territories in that region in the 16 or 1700's). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_dynasty In any case, Iran, unlike the Soviet Union is on the move again and it is doubtful that it will play by the same rule the Soviets did for historical and religious reasons. Add to this the determination of the Sunni's to resist Iranian expansion and you have the making of major conflict. If the Iran-Iraq war was like WW1 (trenches and all) a nuclear Iran will catapult it towards WW3 bi-passing WW2. Israel is an important but incidental player in all this. Peretz too doesn't seem to take this larger history into account. When writing about Iran.

- nr106646

February 26, 2012 at 11:59pm

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"I never offer personal details other than to rebut some incorrect surmise by another poster, including you." Another self delusion. There was nothing to rebut in the occasion when you bragged about your many houses. and such. You mentioned that you were having a good time somewhere on the beach and I wondered how a person having such good time could be spending hours on this message boards trading insults and carpet-commenting with endless invective about other posters. Which is when you came out with the extraordinary announcement that you had lots of money etc etc. Why you did it is a mystery. The whole thing was very strange. It still is. And your attempts to paint it as "rebuttal" of -- stranger still. Your routine default position, the reptilian ad homs, does nothing to resurrect your dignity. Quite to opposite.

- noga1

February 27, 2012 at 12:07am

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Definitely a group of people here I would look to for ways of achieving peace in the world and in the middle east. Good night. Sleep well. Western Civilization is safe with you boys and girls on the job.

- skahn

February 27, 2012 at 12:18am

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You're sidling up to fictional people created by your own imagination, noga. Basically talking to yourself. Good luck with all that. If you cannot figure it out, be mystified. Who cares? But just to see how much self-control you really possess, see if you can participate in one whole thread without making some other poster, rather than the posts, a subject of what you have to say. Who knows? You might get the hand of it and turn into some semblance of a decent human being. ___________________ nr, I don't think one should rely on any of these analogies too heavily. The point about Russia and the US is two-fold: It is quite possible to live well despite the threat of nuclear annihilation, if necessary. It is hardly the case that nations cannot be in possession of the means of mutual destruction and refrain from destroying each other. The perception of Russia at the time that Truman was being urged to bomb it in order to prevent it from obtaining the nuclear weapons we had was in no sense more benign than current perceptions of Iran. Russian rhetoric, although rooted in the ideology of communism rather than theology, was no less bellicose and actually offered greater justification for worldly and world-wide domination than does Iranian Shi'a theology. Plus, the imbalance between the capabilities of Israel with SLBMs and thermonuclear weapons is enormous and will remain so for decades. There is not realistic prospect of Iran having such weapons unless given them by the Chinese or Russians. The right-wing fantasy that enemies are best dealt with by some form or other of preemptive war -- because the dominoes will fall, it will be too late, the enemy knows no rational restraint -- proves to be wrong over and over again. But it keeps coming back like a zombie and keeps leading to ruin and loss. Yes, in the case of Hitler, England and France lost the opportunity to act early on when Germany was illegally re-arming. But that analogy, the implicit analogy for Iran, just will not hold when, not only is Israel already much more powerful than Iran is ever likely to be, but there is a western power, the United States, that Iran cannot hope seriously to threaten. States with a return address are not the nuclear threat to us or to Israel. Rogue non-state actors gaining possession of nuclear weapons and smuggling them in are the threat. It is a threat we are living with today and should be doing our damnedest to contain, but the wheels are not coming off the bus (yes the same bus) because the threat exists. There is no reason that I can see to start a war with Iran today, with many possible awful outcomes, based on the fear that if and when Iran achieves a nuclear weapon a balance of power cannot be maintained. Additionally, the notion that Iran's program is somehow now reaching impregnability that it can be prevented from attaining with bombing is simply fallacious. The program does not grow like some biological thing, with secure sites growing into the ground. If Iran can build secure sites today, it can build them tomorrow, and surely will, if it is bombed and its current sites prove not to be secure enough. One should consider whether all the bellicosity is not hastening and cementing Iran's development. If I were running Israel's show, I wouldn't threaten to bomb Iran outside of a western consensus. I would express my public confidence in the will of the world to ensure that Iran does not obtain nuclear arms in violation of international law, urge the west to adopt sanctions with sufficient force and effect, and blandly assert that Israel has and will at all times maintain sufficient power to deter Iran from any rash behavior, without being specific about what that force is. Then I would do my best to end Israel's diplomatic isolation, isolation that is a much more serious threat than Iran and is hardly worth "a few apartments in Jerusalem." Even the US discovered that it cannot go it alone in the modern world, and even against low-tech opponents. We need allies too. The notion of Israel as being able to defend itself in isolation is a grandiose, even grotesque, fantasy that endangers the country. Israel needs to secure its place as a member in very good standing of the western community, with strong bonds of trade, affiliation, tourism, the works. Together with its own military power, that is its most secure position.

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 12:53am

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Roi, you were born with a swastika where normal Americans have a heart.

- bulbman1066

February 27, 2012 at 3:14am

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"You're sidling up to fictional people created by your own imagination, noga" What an astonishingly silly and meaningless thing to say. You seem to have run out of insults, roi. Roi reveals his own profound naivete and ignorance about Iran and Israel (despite having direct recourse to Persian and Israeli sources that he alleges). His grand political mind produced a plan. He actually believes that Israel's "bellicosity" is "hastening and cementing Iran's development". Don't make a fuss. Clean your nose. And hope that somehow the storm will blow over. As in the joke about the two Jews standing in line to the gas chamber. The one says: shouldn't we do something? The other replies: Shhh, don't make waves. That's roi's advice to Israel. Ghetto-mentality. Goes well together with sidling up to non-Jews and making statements worthy of the authors of The "Protocols", in a desperate attempt to gain some pity points for himself.

- noga1

February 27, 2012 at 6:52am

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Ever the literalist and incapable of understanding irony, at least in English, you miss the point, noga, as usual. Let me make it simple, even for you. The point of my astonishingly meaningless phrase is that it is every bit as meaningless as your absurd accusations that by commenting on something another poster says I am "sidling up to them." I am ridiculing you, which is even more fun that slapping you around. You are indeed ridiculous. As for the notion that wanting to be proof from attack by Israel and the United States might motivate Iran to build nuclear arms, who could imagine such a thing? Do Iran's threats motivate Israel to prepare for war? Naaaah. Nobody responds to threats, for which we have as evidence noga's mordant humor about concentration camps. Here's Jeffrey Goldberg (anti-Semite?) in The Atlantic a few days ago: "This is an important bit of analysis from Colin Kahl, the former deputy assistant secretary of defense for the Middle East (who, by the way, has spent much of the past three years working to strengthen the U.S.-Israel defense relationship): A near-term U.S. or Israeli attack on Iran's nuclear program would knock it back, at most, a few years. Meanwhile it would motivate Iran's hardliners to kick out International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspectors, incentivize the regime to rapidly rebuild a clandestine nuclear program, and rally the Iranian people around that cause to deter future attacks." Here's another good quote: "Here we have the Council on Foreign Relation's Ray Takeyh describing this. ... [N]uclear weapons, by definition, are such a narrow category of arms that they can accomplish only a limited set of objectives. They do offer a deterrent capability: unlike Saddam's Iraq, a nuclear Iran would not be invaded, and its leaders would not be deposed." Do Israeli threats deter Iran? Hardly. Do they likely stimulate Iranian efforts bringing forwad the thing Israel wishes to prevent? More than likely. What then are they for? To frighten the west that Israel will make matters worse unless someone else succeeds, at a speed to Israel's satisfaction, in bringing Iran's program to a halt. One can always tell a right-wing nut by the unexamined assumption that, unless one is making war, one is doing nothing. And if it is a pointless war with little chance of success and every possibility of making matters worse, so much the better. At least the wager of pointless war that makes matters worse cannot be accused of waiting to go into the gas chambers or of a ghetto mentality. And that, in the mind of noga, is more important than whether one actually survives. Unwittingly, in her endless zeal for the smear, noga repeats one of the worst anti-Semitic slurs against the Jews of Europe, that they were cowardly because they went "meekly" into the gas chambers. They were naked and powerless, with no ability to challenge the Nazis who stood over them. What indeed were the two Jews in noga's joke supposed to do at that point? If they were comforted, even in the slightest degree, by the belief that they might survive by "not making waves," why not? And sometimes not making waves is just the right thing to do. Indeed, a handful did survive by trying to avoid drawing attention to themselves. Not a bad strategy in a hopeless situation. What matters in the world is not doing something, anything, but in figuring out what is best in a situation. I have commented before that noga has a Masada complex, a will to self-destruction as a demonstration of autonomy. How clearly in evidence here.

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 8:00am

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I thought it was a lovely gesture to award the Best Foreign Language Film Oscar to the entry from Iran - and I am sure it deserved it - especially since the Polish film nominee was so well reviewed, but, also confirmed the Holocaust by being based on a true story. The eloquent plea to stop the drums of war, from the producer who accepted the Oscar, made me think again about where that drumbeat comes from. Mostly American pundits, and politicians, have made it sound as if Israel is the only nation threatened by a nuclear Iran. This despite the wikileaks that made it clear it is the Saudis who are/were pressuring the USA. And that America IS Iran's Great Satan, ever since Eisenhower had the CIA remove Mossadegh with the second Pahlavi. Also, since the Baluchis in both Pakistan and Iran want their nation back (look at a world map from 1848 and Baluchistan is distinct from Hindoostan and Afghanistan), I do wish some pundits would start mentioning that Iran's nuclear project might just be as deterrence from Pakistan, whose Sunnis will do what the Saudis ask. noga: I am not sure it is a Ghetto-mentality amongst American Jews active in the Democratic Party. They sound more like Court Jews - allowed in the room as long as they behave. In New York, the politicians and their 'teams' fell in line in 2011 in order to make sure they still have a district after re-districting. As to this thread? nr from Buffalo was not in the Peretzian threads when roid admitted he is quite different when it comes to Peretz, who could simply post "The sky is blue" and roid would find some way to discredit such heresy :)

- K2K

February 27, 2012 at 8:02am

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bulbman, now I know I am getting somewhere. When a piece of shit like you can do nothing but sputter "swastika," the argument is won.

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 8:05am

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The difference on the Peretzian threads, K2K, is that this is where the nutcases and abusers always feel free to vent without restraint. Peretz draws them out like flies to manure, his evident dementia apparently giving license to theirs. In the rest of TNR, it is generally possible (not always, but generally) to conduct a civilized discussion without the personal insults and insane hysteria that are almost the sole output of the self-declared friends of Israel. What a pathetic irony that Israel should be defended here with endlessly offensive and abusive behavior. Withal, K2K, if you think you have something substantive to say to the point made by Peretz, that someone must proceed with all due haste to bomb Iran, why don't you say it? If you don't, why are talking? Just to hear yourself talk?

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 8:14am

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For thirty years, I have read TNR and so I have some inclination beyond that of simple good manners to bear Mr Peretz some goodwill, and to be patient, or so I had anyway, at one time. Those days are gone. The fact is that in recent years, his writing here has been an embarrassment to this fine journal. I sigh with some sympathy and increasing frustration every time I see his name on another hateful screed. The clash of civilizations must have its cheerleaders, and an open society will always have some who preach hate and push for war. But it really isn't necessary or wise for the best journals to publish the bile and belligerence such cranks produce. I used to wonder how much longer this could last. I am resigned to seeing these pieces by Peretz continue in the pages of TNR until he can no longer lift a pen. What a shame. Neil

- purcellneil@aol.com

February 27, 2012 at 8:16am

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Nice that you should toss in an anti-Semitic smear, K2K. Allowed into the room by whom? To whom do you imagine Jewish Democrats in New York need to pay court? As it is, they pretty much run the Democratic party which has a 2:1 enrollment advantage in the state. Have you heard of Sheldon Silver, Charles Schumer? Did you know that the mayor of New York City, Michael Bloomberg, is Jewish? Apart from a lame attempt to be nasty, what on earth are you blathering about?

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 8:20am

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This Peretz post on Iran is most read at RealClearWorld since Sunday. http://www.jewishjournal.com/bloggish/item/no_oscar_for_israel_but_french_jews_triumph_in_artist_20120226/ The Academy Awards did their bit for a diplomatic solution, with a most gracious Iranian accepting the best foreign language film Oscar, beating both Israel, and Poland's "In Darkness", the film reminder there really was a Holocaust. However, wanted to share this URL because I had no idea that French Jews were the real winners: roid: your attempt to entrap me in your twisted mindgames of simplistic condescension fails again. Am surprised you are not hard at work advising Gary Ackerman how to gerrymander Borough Park, Carl Kruger, and Dov Hikind out of relevance instead of wasting your time in Peretz-world. I await the new maps to see if Eliot Engel's muzzle saved his NY17, and whether my bridge neighborhood continues to give Engel a CD with access from Riverdale to Nyack. signing off for a few days due to need for inoculation from Peretz-bashing.

- K2K

February 27, 2012 at 10:29am

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"twisted mindgames of simplistic condescension " !

- noga1

February 27, 2012 at 10:39am

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"I am not sure it is a Ghetto-mentality amongst American Jews active in the Democratic Party" I don't see roi as a typical representative of Democratic American Jews and my comment was meant to describe him and him alone. (The "Court Jew" term was better articulated by Hannah Arendt who spoke of the psychological complex of "the exceptional Jew".)

- noga1

February 27, 2012 at 10:47am

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hey K2K, the Flowers of War was not even nominated for an Oscar (but what for other awards) and I liked it a lot as it told the story of the rape of Nanking. I have not seen "A separation" but from what I have read it sounds like a very good movie. Why can't that be enough? Just because the Polish movie is about the Holocaust is meaningless. Are you saying that if a movie is about the holocaust and is well reviewed it "deserves" an oscar? And how can you possibly fault a producer who doesn't want to see his country blown to bits, as well deserved as you might think it. I didn't want to weigh in on this because this thread is so angry, but as I pay for my subscription I might as well. I am of the mind that any action should not occur until Iran test fires a nuke (or attempts to do so) as the would have exposed themselves as liars. I can not imagine that Iran would risk sending a nuke tipped missile to Israel that doesn't work so I am sure they will want to make sure what they have does work first, but when they do the US must be unequivocal that that would mean a state of war exists between the US and Iran. I don't want a repeat of Iraq, going to war against a country that might still be a decade away from a functioning nuke.

- blackton

February 27, 2012 at 10:59am

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hey blackton! Did you see the Colbert Report where he posthumously circumsized all dead Mormons last week? I was wondering if Colbert's writers had read your comments :) I do not follow foreign language films, and thought I was clear in my comments about the positive meaning of the Iranian win instead of either an Israeli win, or a Holocaust movie win. Hollywood is currently boycotting Chinese films because China decided to limit how many foreign films get to run in China's theatres. Sandra Bullock made that point last night when she claimed to be speaking Mandarin with a German accent while actually speaking in German. I have never been on the "bomb Iran" bandwagon, and I also think the regime-change idea is wishful thinking. I continue to await Mother Nature, or covert Azeris, to destroy Teheran in a massive earthquake so that the Ayatollahs have something else to deal with besides nuclear warheads. And I support all of Iran's minorities' quest for self-determination, leaving the rump of Persians to figure out how they became an economic colony of the Chinese. If you had found my few comments buried amidst the ad hominem exchanges in this monster thread, you would stop confusing me with others. Since I have zero problem as long as it is muslims killing other muslims instead of Jews or Christians, that seems to make me a monster with the bleeding hearts at TNR. So be it. I happen to believe that the world can not sustain this population (McKibben's Deep Ecology), am willing to volunteer myself, but do believe that Islam is an intolerant ideology, not just another religion. Let them kill each other until they get tired of all the bloody body parts.

- K2K

February 27, 2012 at 11:26am

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There is no need to entrap you, K2K, in mind games or anything else. You said something completely, overtly inane, smearing Jews and Democrats. I pointed it out. This no doubt embarrassed you, as it should have, so you retreat to the noga posture, whining supine on the floor and claiming you have been victimized. And then of course noga approves your wan aping of her smear tactics.

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 11:55am

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I see you are upping the ante on your noga-like victim shtick, K2K. Just where and when have you been called a "monster" here? Oh. That hasn't happened. This is the "mind game" of attacking yourself and attributing it to vague others so that you can both claim to be a victim and, in your mind, add credibility to your words on the ground that ostensible "bleeding hearts" have attacked you. (I will not remind you of just who it is who mastered this particular propaganda technique so as not to further embarrass you. I think you know.) You do a really poor noga imitation, K2K, very meager and childish. Why don't you stick to playing it straight up and say what you want to say without either the ad hominem directed at others or the faux ad hominem that you direct at yourself? __________________ Blackton, let me just sidle on up to you (I believe that you are not Jewish hence you will qualify as an instance with which noga can charge me). Clearly the fact that you don't want to bomb Iran and have another Iraq (or worse since Iran is considerably better armed than was Saddam Hussein's Iraq) shows that you are an anti-Semite. You wish only for the destruction of Israel and do not understand that Israel is tiny and beleaguered and must have license to do these things requiring that anyone else who may be affected stand aside. Like you. You worry about your well-being and that of your family and your country. What puny selfish concerns you have. What about the Holocaust, blackton? What about that? Don't you know that Poles just made a film about the Holocaust? Are you some kind of Holocaust denier not wanting to bomb Iran? Don't you realize that Moslems deserve it anyway? They want martyrdom to bring the 12th Imam (obscured) back and we would only be helping them. Clearly you hate the Shi'a too or you would be willing to do your share and bomb them to help bring back the 12th Imam (obscured) which is what they want you to do. If you were Jewish, blackton, you would be a self-hating Jew. You are probably a self-hating Jew wannabe. You wish you could be Jewish so that you could hate yourself. Than you would become a court Jew. You wish you could be Jewish so that you could hate yourself and become a court Jew. Then you would be a Jew without ahavat Israel, love for the Jewish people, a self-hating, court Jew without love of Israel. Plus, you would have a ghetto-mentality, what with all this crap about not bombing Iran. You wish you could be a self-hating court Jew without love of Israel standing around thinking ghetto thoughts and doing nothing while Israel is destroyed. You must have a swastika for a heart. Any decent American who did not have a swastika for a heart would bomb Iran right now. Well, just forget it, blackton. You don't have what it takes. For one thing, you are rational and thoughtful (ooooh, can't you just feel all the sidling love?)

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 12:16pm

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"The Academy Awards did their bit for a diplomatic solution, with a most gracious Iranian accepting the best foreign language film Oscar, beating both Israel, and Poland's "In Darkness"," There were articles in the Israeli press that quoted the director of the Israeli film "Footnote" (which sounds very interesting) that the Iranian film was the better choice. I will be seeing both films as soon as I get a chance.

- arnon

February 27, 2012 at 12:25pm

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K2K, you said above that Israel had "more oil reserve than Saudi Arabia." I asked for a link and I didn't get it. Did you make it up, or is this something you read about, if so where?

- arnon

February 27, 2012 at 12:27pm

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"“Separation,” directed by Asghar Farhadi, deals with a couple going through a divorce in modern Iran. “Footnote” was directed by Joseph Cedar, a native of the United States who lives in Tel Aviv and whose “Beaufort” film on the First Lebanon War also was a failed entry for an Oscar in 2007. Another loser in the best movie sector was “In Darkness,” which focused on a dozen Jews who hid in sewers during the Nazi invasion of Poland. Small satisfaction was gained by Jews at the failure of “W.E” to win first prize for Best Costume Design, preventing the appearance of the name of Nazi filmmaker Leni Riefenstahl, who is noted in the credits. Farhadi sat with Cedar at the same table at a press conference, dousing speculation that the Iranian would carry out his “Separation” theme to boycott an Israeli. The Iranian movie is playing at Israeli theatres, but "Footnote" is not screened in Iran, which obliterates all signs of the “Zionist regime.”" http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/153187#.T0u9a_Eu2f4

- arnon

February 27, 2012 at 12:31pm

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"Cedar's family is Orthodox and his father is an Israel Prize winner in Biochemistry. Cedar’s mother told Voice of Israel government radio she is “not disappointed" and even is ”happy”, although "Footnote" did not win first place. Cedar's movie is the fourth time an Israeli film has been nominated for an Oscar in the past five years and illustrates Israel’s success in Hollywood. This year was only the second time an Iranian film had been nominated for the best foreign language award. As for relations with Iran, Cedar’s mother said, “The Iranian director is terrific. It’s a shame we can’t have normal relations with creative people.” Farhadi, after winning the Foreign Language Film Oscar for Iran, said, “At a time of tug of war, intimidation and aggressions exchanged between politicians, the name of their county, Iran, is spoken here through her glorious culture, a rich and ancient culture that has been hidden under the heavy dust of politics." “I proudly offer this award to the people of my country, the people who respect all cultures and civilizations and despise hostility and resentment.”" http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/153187#.T0u9a_Eu2f4

- arnon

February 27, 2012 at 12:33pm

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roidubouloi "I will do my best to end Israel's diplomatic isolation". Somewhere along with your obsession in an unreal world you missed the facts. China building high speed trains in Israel, including linking Eilat and Haifa underway. Multiple billion dollar deals to bust military and security of India, Azerbaijan. Multiple projects with African countries. The leader of south Sudan visited Israel. Working close with Greece. Selling, repairing drones with Turkey. Peace with Jordan and Egypt. Developing the huge gas findings off Haifa coast (Texas companies). Close cooperation with European Union countries. Close dealings with Japan. How are you going to save Israel from what isolation? If and only if, Israel allows Iranian theocratic dictators acquire nuclear weapons blasting to the four winds the destruction of Israel. Well lousy compadre. In what world do you live. I repeat you are a Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew. Madly obsessed with false illegal international liberated territories. You have to explain why you are self hatred anti Israel . Did an Israeli, did a Jew, had sex with your mother. Passionate sex, and then abandoned her? roident, king du rotten baloney, you are a sorry disappointment.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 12:40pm

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The racist Chu is attacking his superiors again.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 12:53pm

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arnon you dropped the 1. That is wise since you are inferior. I gave tou the reference previously on Israel's gas and oil reserves comparable to Saudi Arabia in which your turret syndrome problem you proceeded to insult me and putting me down. Here is one of many references one can obtain just to google. You are so inferior that you can not do it. http://rt.com/news/reserves-offshore-middle-east-engdahl-855/ Why are you dumb dumb stupid, requesting the info? Or simply you are begging for K2K attention, to lift your inferiority complex. K2K ignores you. But I am charitable, and feel sorry for you. On the other hand K2K is an arrogant bastard, unable to feel pity for you. And another ignorant Failure. On top he is an evil worm. Makes himself important by loathing that Muslims killing Muslims is a good thing. He defends Israel. With jackasses like this who needs enemies. K2K is a shame to Israel, a shame to the Jews. After all he is as inferior or even worst than you. These frustrated psycophats Infest the site.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 1:02pm

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Packard lousy vermin I ignored you previously and I am ignoring you again. You don't even deserve an arnon turret response. You called turret a strange organization. Another dumb dumb in the block.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 1:05pm

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I see the current holder of first place for insanity on the TNR boards is back: Here you wackjob, not that I think reality makes the slightest impression on you. While noga may be a sociopath, you are hallucinatory. _____________________ Wikileaks: Israel wanted to overcome diplomatic isolation at UNESCO Submitted by maureen on Mon, 10/31/2011 - 21:01 A Wikileaks gem that I came across after the final dump of all the cables this summer is all the more shiny in light of today’s vote to make Palestine a member state at UNESCO, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization. A cable dated 24 February 2010, marked unclassified but “sensitive,” summarizes a 21 February 2010 discussion between US Deputy Secretary Jacob J. Lew and Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon. During the meeting, according to the cable, Ayalon asked for US “assistance in placing an Israeli candidate as Assistant Director General for International Cooperation at UNESCO.” The cable reads (scroll down to item 16): Ayalon said that Israel was working hard to overcome its diplomatic isolation. He flagged Israel’s having recently joined JUSCANZ [a consultative body to the UN Human Rights Council] in Geneva and its hope to join JUSCANZ and WEAG in New York so that it could present candidates for UN positions. Israel wanted to submit a candidate to be Assistant Delegate General for International Cooperation and Communication at UNESCO, and asked for U.S. intervention with new UNESCO Director General Bokova, who “owes you guys her life.” ___________________ I guess the Deputy Foreign Minister of Israel was misinformed about Israel's diplomatic isolation. Here's an article by none other than John Bolton: Israel’s Diplomatic Isolation John R. Bolton | Commentary Magazine https://www.decideamerica.com/israels-diplomatic-isolation "Even the most heavily scripted, unspontaneous, and intolerably pedantic UN meetings generate substantial press attention abroad, and that press attention, in turn, adds to the growing sense that Israel is among the most solitary nations on the face of the earth. Nor does that isolation seem limited to the UN’s chilly corridors. Israelis are concerned about a growing estrangement from the nations of the European Union (EU)–not just a lack of substantive support from Western Europe, but an acute lack of the warmth and empathy that was directed toward the Jewish state from the continent in earlier days." _______________ Have a great day, Chuch, in whatever asylum you reside and on whatever planet you imagine yourself to exist. :-)

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 1:08pm

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About UNESCO and Israel: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anav-silverman/unesco-fueling-cultural-c_b_1104733.html "UNESCO has worked tirelessly to undermine Israel's cultural and historical connection to holy sites. In November 2010, the agency classified Rachel's Tomb, the third holiest site in Judaism as a mosque, Bilal bin Rabah Mosque, "an integral part of the occupied Palestinian territories." A study of Palestinian Authority school textbooks in 2008, however found that the site was never referred to as such, and instead was known at the "Dome of Rachel," until 2001, when the term, Bilal bin Rabah Mosque suddenly emerged in new educational textbooks. According to the Palestinian Minister of Tourism Khouloud Daibes Abu Dayyeh, in addition to Hebron, the Palestinians are also asking UNESCO to recognize 19 other sites in the Holy Land to be incorporated as Palestinian World Heritage Sites including Jericho and Bethlehem." The bad blood between UNESCO and Israel has some provenance: http://www.nysun.com/foreign/egyptians-bid-for-un-post-in-doubt-over-burn-quip/78844/

- noga1

February 27, 2012 at 1:23pm

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roidubouloi Galicianer dishonest self hatred Jew. Your UN, Unesco organizations are controlled by the Muslim dictators. These organizations are anti Israel, inept and completely failed. Your obsession with these organizations are proof that your mind has gone bananas. They know nothing, do nothing, and are nothing. They include a majority of small countries, poor failed countries. Ha , at one time Libya, Syria , were elected to head the UN human rights branches. Well we have all kinds of old frustrated crazy nuts. But I am curios ,why are you a self hatred Jew so virulently anti Israel. You are called names hemo roid, roident. And above all king du rotten baloney. Quack quack quack, grow up , get out of your obsession, illegal international liberated territories.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 1:25pm

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The coward Chu is also a liar. You racist peace of filth who obsesses about people's identities and projects his own "mental diseases" and like an insane madman assumes that what he conjures up in his sick brain is real. Chu is a sick right wing racist.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 1:26pm

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"While noga may be a sociopath, you (Chuch) are hallucinatory." How true, how true...

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 1:28pm

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Chu must be a Kahanist. He certainly is a terrorist.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 1:29pm

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Profile of the Sociopath Glibness and Superficial Charm Manipulative and Conning They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims. Grandiose Sense of Self Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Pathological Lying Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests. Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way. Shallow Emotions When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises. Incapacity for Love Need for Stimulation Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common. Callousness/Lack of Empathy Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others. Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc. Irresponsibility/Unreliability Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed. Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts. Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively. Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

- noga1

February 27, 2012 at 1:49pm

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roidubouloi Here is your love affair with international organizations. Israel's UN ambassador indicates this is the first UN condemnation of terror attacks against Israelis since 2005. http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=259191 If Israel would rely on the UN for protection it would be committing suicide. There is a whole facts about the UN failures to protect. The Arab armies attacking Israel in 1967. Same in 1973. The pathetic behavior of UN observers /troops in Lebanon first during Arafat's days, then during Hizbullah's reign. Their ineptitude and collusion with Hamas in Gaza. The Goldstone anti Israel report on Gaza. And on and on. I was reading Don Quijote de La Mancha. Don Quijote became delusional after reading and reading too many chivalry books. He gets in his armor mounts a very skinny horse, Rocinante, and attacks wind mills he confuses with giants. Has a helper a fat Sancho Panza (stomach) who rides a donkey. Sancho Panza is sane, and helps Don Quijote avoid disaster with his delusional obsessions. roi you are so similar with your obsession of international illegal liberated territories canard. Sadly nobody will write a paperback about you. But why, this Galicianer dishonest anti Israel self hatred Jew, got into his madness. It is a mystery.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 1:54pm

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arnon: I did provide a link on Israel's shale oil, lost in the flood of personal attacks that dominate this thread. You can Google "Israel shale oil Jerusalem" and find references. The main deposits are somewhere 30 miles south of Jerusalem. roid: in your head, everyone is a victim. The rest of us only see the classic bully aiming for his target du jour. Guess you do not even rate being a Court Jew to a Court Jew in Obama's Democratic Party :) Surely Steve Israel needs your range of skills in prying open the pockets in Five Towns?

- K2K

February 27, 2012 at 1:57pm

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noga 1. Thank you for the posting. The psychiatrists call it nowadays empathy deficiency syndrome. Although this is characteristic of many psychotics.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 2:03pm

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K2K I appreciate paying attention to half witted arnon who has wisely dropped the 1. Still you are wrong admiring, rejoicing, Muslims massacring Muslims. It is wrong, very wrong. It is evil.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 2:07pm

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Packard. It is lunch time. Your master is feeding you. Hopefully you will be also vaccinated against your rabies. You are a mad fecal dog.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 2:19pm

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hemo roid: There is no bigger schmuck on this blog than you. Absolutely the most stupid, vapid and arrogant American Jew I ever met. And believe me, I met a lot of them while living in New York. irony:"Looks like we're back to an airstrike," Wikileaks releases cables claiming that Israel destroyed Iranian infrastructure. http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/02/27/3091863/wikileaks-release-says-israel-destroyed-iranian-nuclear-infrastructure molly:"By the way, it's quite cute how makover thinks the Iranians would welcome any conquerers as their liberators. That level of innocence is rather sweet." molly sugar, is English your first language? Your mother tongue? You seem to have a reading comprehension problem darling. Could be dyslexia you know.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 27, 2012 at 2:59pm

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Thanks for the information. I'll google it and lets see what comes up. I see that crazy moron Chuchu is still here. You are not doing your point of view any good by feeding this insane troll. God knows how he found this blog, he doesn't seem to A New Republic reader. If he is, I worry about the future of this magazine.

- arnon

February 27, 2012 at 3:02pm

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Makover, have you noticed your servant Chuchu?

- arnon

February 27, 2012 at 3:03pm

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arnon: How is he my servant? Care to explain? Its a sad story though, he is a bit, how would I say it, touched.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 27, 2012 at 3:09pm

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"Packard. It is lunch time." Lunch time was hours ago. Only in the loony bin here you reside is it lunch time, you racist creep. You foam at the mouth so much that you will probably drown in your own spittle. I hope it's sooner than later.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 3:09pm

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You are being l polite, makover. He is one of those people who hurt the pro Israel cause more by their support than a dozen David Dukes.

- arnon1

February 27, 2012 at 3:13pm

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Packard it would be better if you didn't address him directly. He loves being kicked, he confuses it with love. As someone said don't feed the mad troll.

- arnon1

February 27, 2012 at 3:14pm

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This thread needs Yard and his Sonoma hooker. An affectionate blast from the past. Jamie. You are inoculating Roi and his arguments by virtue of your clumsy clanging. You might have something to say if only you could get out of your own way. You see, Roi has a dream and if certain human inconveniences interject themselves he gets quite frustrated bringing the full weight of mechanical approbation to account. It doesn't fit with his jigsaw thus contrary ire. It's kind of a God thing in his own fashion.

- jacko

February 27, 2012 at 3:30pm

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arnon is back with the 1. He has inferiority complex. He should ,he is half witted. He is inferior. Very mediocre. He is trying to control his turret illness, obscenities attacks, putting down people. He keeps copying my remarks about him. A clear sign of his sorry limitations. Packard is definitely a paid Hamas/Iranian blogger. A very poor one. Just insults, obscenities. A mad rabid dog. Poor Palestinians, with defenders like this they just sink more and more itnto their camel manure. makover, you are really sane. Change your name to makeover, my iPad keeps changing it. I am glad to take on arnon w/o the 1, the half witted turret psycho. Packard the paid Hamas/Iranian mad dog feckal Palestinian. And new sheister makeover .

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 3:39pm

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K2K, I read the article in the Wall Street Journal. I'll wait till they start to extract the oil before I celebrate.

- arnon1

February 27, 2012 at 3:50pm

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jaime: You can call me anything you like. I don't care. If you like makeover, it's fine with me. As long as you are well.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 27, 2012 at 3:52pm

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Chu like a retard is repeating himself. His foaming at the mouth has become habitual with him. Someone should put this coward out of his misery. Put him back in the loony bin.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 3:53pm

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Chu is inferior to everyone even the catatonic. At least they are quiet.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 3:55pm

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jacko You really know how to admire brilliant information. It hurts you that it doesn't come from you. Where is it clumsy? Where is it clanging.? No surprises that Santorum is popular attacking obscure pseudo intellectual dilettantes . These causes the insects, arnon w/o the 1 half witted, and Packard the paid Palestinian, to post opinions . Now roident is different he is self hatred Jew, anti Israel, but he has class. Hemo roid is a good source of equivocating information. An anti diplomat diplomat. It is a pleasure to confront him, his evil brings the best in the pro Israel honest bloggers. roi has promised to work for international acceptance of Israel, as soon as Iran acquires nuclear weapons, whatever is left of Israel, though. Then the international illegality of the liberated territories will be a mute point, and his reason of être will disappear. But it is time to confront the demonizers of Israel, the demonizers of Netanyahu, the demonizers of Martin Peretz.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 4:01pm

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Well skahn we are at 323, are you going to wait and see if we reach 400? Too bad that we have comments from half witted arnon w/o 1, and the paid Palestinian Packard camel manure one liners. That are as worthless as is their sorry existence .

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 4:11pm

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Chu always sounds like he is licking a shitsickle. Ordure tastes great says Chew. One liners is all this crappy underhuman can comprehend.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 4:26pm

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Jamie. You should know that I take a back seat to no one in the " I think Roi is full of useless shit" department. He and I have been around the block on many occasions and he holds his own, in his own way, and he does attempt a modicum of intellectual honesty. His good intentions are sullied only by his vitriol and dissatisfactions that are only reserved for the imperfect that he thinks will respond to his clockwork expectations. He doesn't bother with those beyond rational capacity. Thus reserving all responsibility and ire for those who are rational......... and that is his weakness. He can't imagine that a rational person might possibly account for irrationality in their decision making processes. Which makes me curious as to why he might imagine someone or somebodies might respond positively to the world that he imagines, international rules and all, after all the crying is done.

- jacko

February 27, 2012 at 4:27pm

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makover Please don't send me no flowers. But honestly I wish you too to be well and happy. You see I am a Jew Bud. You don't hate just ignore and avoid vicious evil like Packard the Palestinian scum, and ignorant half witted arnon w/o the 1.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 4:28pm

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jacko Well said.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 4:32pm

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The unfortunate , is each time I blog, I see the deleterious face of Ahmadenijad. The master of Packard the Palestinian one liners scum. Since he gets paid by the hour like a good male prostitute (or female) , he must be reaping a bundle. Now he can afford real falafels, instead of camel manure he and his family consume a plenty.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 4:40pm

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What, dear god, did the tiny, beleaguered State of Israel do to deserve this collection of losers and wackos as its putative friends and champions? Look at yourselves! Don't even bother with pages 1-6. All the craziness, the juvenility, the inanity is fully displayed right here on just this page 7. I won't even bother to name names or refer to details at this point. Why bother? The sum of the vapid, raging, out-of-control pieces, to which each of these pathetic creatures contributes without the slightest self-consciousness, says so much more than a list of particulars possibly could. Having egged each other on and worked themselves into a frenzy, it is now a veritable orgy of insanity. Is it Peretz? Is it Israel? Is it the clod Netanyahu and his creepy dishonesty? Is it the corruption of the soul that comes from struggling constantly to justify the morally indefensible? Beats me. But the sheer spectacle of so much craziness in one place is breathtaking.

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 4:57pm

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Did you notice it is quitting time for mad pig Packard the paid Palestinian under sheister (for your info diarrhea in your mouth). He is so lazy , is unwilling to work overtime. arnon w/o the 1 quit some time ago. this half witted ignorant is going to rejoice when Israel's gas/oil is being produced. He had to say something this Tourret infirm as long as is super negative. arnon the schlemiel, he doesn't qualify because of his inferiority, to be promoted to schmuck . And he never will.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 5:02pm

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roidubouloi. You are magnificent. You are at your best. Magnificent Galicianer anti Israel self hatred Jew. Welcome back from your nap. I will miss you if you ever never wake up. There is only one king du stinky baloney. International ineptitude defender as long as it is anti Israel. Why why why is he self hatred Jew Israel, why? It is a mystery.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 5:09pm

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Roi you already know what my advice is and that it's worth every penny you're paying for it. But for some reason, I think it will go unheeded. Here it is from another thread: ...I say just ignore him: let him twist in his own wind hanging on the rope of his own words from the tree of himself...

- basman

February 27, 2012 at 5:20pm

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It is very a propo for roident's sake. In this international gathering there was this German lady and the French, English, Palestinian gentleman. The German lady diplomat had a problem containing her farts. Each time it happened the French apologized for it, same with the English . Before it happened a third time, the Palestinian said I will apologize for next madam's farting.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 5:21pm

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basman ever wonder why people confuse you with ass man ? Because you are an ass.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 5:24pm

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Well the old anti Israel jackasses are now awake, roident, basman ass man , whatever. The others are gone and forgotten pig ass Palestinian Packard. half witted arnon w/o 1 the schlemiel par excellence. These are the anti Israel, anti Netanyahu, anti Martin Peretz crowd. A bunch of losers.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 5:31pm

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Jamie. Shut up, man. Roi. You know as well as I that if push came to shove and a bombing campaign were completely successful that your primary concern would have been that all of your 'rules' would have been violated regardless and separate from the issue of its success or failure. NOT whether or not a very dangerous situation was resolved. Of course morality has no quarter in your world, people are self interested critters that can be molded according to sensible constraints. You would hook folks up to some sort of motivational determination machine to determine whether or not their passions were permissible within the bounds of your self subscribed international 'realities' as prescribed by the UN...and administered by you.

- jacko

February 27, 2012 at 5:41pm

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basman, I really cannot stop laughing at this spectacle. Here we have Chuch, a sort of monster from the collective id of the rest of the rude and crude self-declared friends of Israel, who is so out-of-control and incessant that he actually shuts them up. I don't know whether it is, finally, embarrassment at what they have turned into or just that they cannot get a word in edgewise. But, as a parody of them, he is far, far better than anything I could possibly have conceived of. He really is noga and makover, and their little coterie, just with amped-up, more florid language. The content is the same. I hardly need to say anything. I just want to sit back and watch the show.

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 5:42pm

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Don't bother, jacko. You are just blabbering. I take second place to no one in considering you a worthless piece of shit. Spraying yourself with perfume helps not a bit.

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 5:45pm

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and after all of the nice things I said about you?

- jacko

February 27, 2012 at 5:54pm

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I give up on suggesting a little less insanity JAIMECHUCH. We all have commenters here we like less and more or like and dislke a lot. But you are stone loco, or plum, if you prefer, stone, plum, same thing here.

- basman

February 27, 2012 at 5:56pm

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Don't stop now, Chuch! basman didn't mean it. I know basman. He's a friend of mine. He was just joking. He doesn't really think you're stone, plum loco. Oh no.

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 6:25pm

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The truth is, jacko, I only ever bothered with you to be polite. You're not very interesting. Now that you've become a Chuch, there's no reason at all to pay attention to you as there is no reason to be polite to you, and you're not even worth being rude too. Too ineffectual.

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 6:29pm

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"You see I am a Jew Bud. You don't hate just ignore and avoid vicious evil like Packard the Palestinian scum, and ignorant half witted arnon w/o the 1." Poor Jews, with all they have to put, then the insane Chew shows up pretending to be one of them. Yes, I am a Palestinian agent just like you. Only difference is that I get paid for it, you are doing it for free without even knowing that you are doing it. Your mission is to destroy these blogs, that is what you are after isn't it?

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 6:35pm

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Roi "The truth is, jacko, I only ever bothered with you to be polite. You're not very interesting. Now that you've become a Chuch, there's no reason at all to pay attention to you as there is no reason to be polite to you, and you're not even worth being rude too. Too ineffectual." I appreciate your latitude and generosity. That my shadow should inspire pity is a credit to you. Take it up at the UN. Your place of worship,,,, as further evidence of your wonderful character. Sorry I can't testify to your large ambitions. I think you to be a small and petty thing. With small and petty ambition.

- jacko

February 27, 2012 at 6:52pm

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the small of my implied is a large indicator of injury extents.

- jacko

February 27, 2012 at 7:18pm

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"The truth is, jacko, I only ever bothered with you to be polite. You're not very interesting. Now that you've become a Chuch, there's no reason at all to pay attention to you as there is no reason to be polite to you, and you're not even worth being rude too. Too ineffectual." You actually believe that bullshit... You are nuts to extents that others only wish......

- jacko

February 27, 2012 at 7:30pm

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jacko. I will shut up only after you spell my name correctly Jaime (James in Spanish), I told so to my ex friend Tristan, so he proceeded to address me as Jamie to irritate me I guess. Then I changed his name to Triston (Spanish for the sad one). We have not communicated for awhile, he has very thin skin, and really I don't want to upset him, we are ex friends you know. basman or ass man, whatever. Compliments will lead you nowhere. Please use meschugener, since you are a meshumet. roidubouloi. Welcome back. You definitely bring the best on the pro Israel camp. You magnificent diplomat of the failed international obsessiveness. Soon you will be supporting the legality of the liberated territories, and might even support Israel against it's enemies. I was going to call you a frustrated diplomat. Aren't you.. Honest I believe in miracles. you will be an asset to pro Israel, instead of being an ass. We will then stop calling you roident and hemo roid. Remember my late father in law was a Galicianer, but he was pro Israel. But he was honest. Hem. Maybe he was from the border of the Litvaks like moi.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 7:38pm

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malahat, my iPad translate you as malaise. Why? Please translate your remark. Who are the" waltons d'antan?"

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 7:44pm

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skahn Today on PBS update on using music therapy http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2012/02/a-new-look-at-music-therapy.html I use also watching movies , good classical movies. Those I like I practice watching many times, with closed caption. I enjoy discovering nuances. Like in Hitchcock movies, discovering when momentarily he appears. Or mistakes like I caught in the Caine mutiny with Humphrey Bogart, or The Train with Burt Lancaster and Paul Scofield. I highly recommend for more than therapeutic purposes.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 7:58pm

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This thread is the greatest commentary on Martin Peretz, his disordered thoughts, and his little group of acolytes that I have ever read in probably close to eight years on TNR. It is so absolutely appropriate I cannot stop laughing. :-)

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 8:20pm

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Where did that absurd caricature of a right wing poster Chchu come from. Does anyone know? He wasn't hear a few months ago.

- arnon1

February 27, 2012 at 8:28pm

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arnon stop eating your guts of being inferior.live with it. You are a schlemiel, you were always a schlemiel, and you will always be a schlemiel.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 8:32pm

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I don't know where he came from, but he's a blessing. He takes the behavior and rhetoric of Peretz, noga, makover, et alia up just a couple of notches and the place turns into a complete shambles. He is the perfect lampoon machine, whether witting or unwitting.

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 8:32pm

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Thanks roi I love you too. Honest you bring the best on the pro Israel crowd. On the other hand turret infirm arnon w/o 1 is too inferior to be real. A schlemiel that don't qualify to be promoted to schmuck

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 8:35pm

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Thank you, Jaime. Keep up the good work!

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 8:37pm

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Little soul, lighter than air, heavier than the stone on your tomb- indeed, one can't negotiate with you, unpolitical as you are and fickle like the weather forecast! All the while you want to be lifted. Nobody can comprehend you, selfish mimosa, least of all you yourself. Really, one could feel sorry for you! But that would be a mistake. (H.M. Enzensberger)

- noga1

February 27, 2012 at 8:46pm

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Ah fuck. I thought that after all this time of foreplay that Roi and I were close enough. Alas he was only being polite. Chased my skirt down the alley and had second thoughts inasmuch that he had fears as to how deep. Couldn't get past the.....

- jacko

February 27, 2012 at 8:48pm

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The creep Chuchu will tire in a few weeks and decamp. We have seen his like before. Chuchu is sui generis, crazy people usually are.

- arnon1

February 27, 2012 at 8:48pm

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Like I said, crazy Chew is on a mission to destroy these forums.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 8:54pm

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roi I have followed MP since the 60's he was always a mehaie defending Israel to the bone. During those years we used to read NYT a lot, we were busy with work, with the children I was always annoyed with Israel diatribe of NYT.eventually I stopped reading NYT was too much masochism. Recently the demonization of Israel has gotten out of hand. Demonization of MP was out of hand led by the NYT. I decided to re subscribe to TNR. I was appalled at MP demonization by many bloggers here. I love, even idolize MP. He is tops, honest, accurate, superbly articulate, and very pro Israel. He knows I am sure, the vitriol that TNR bloggers put after him. He has not pushed for moderators, that most other sites have. He has allowed a truly free press. Constructive criticism is always welcome. Civil discussions would be welcome. Abuses by cretins like turret sufferer arnon 1 are unacceptable. And most bloggers ignore him. Abusers like paid Palestinian Packard are insignificant. He is ignored. And you know it. Demonization of Israel, demonization of Nethanyauh , demonization of MP Has to be confronted. And at the end of the day, roi your comments are a mehaie, they help bring the best on the Israel crowd. I am enjoying it even more since the cayenne pepper hit the fan.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 9:00pm

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jacko. good stuff My late brother's name was Jacob, Yankle, Jacobo . Good heart felt memories. They all came before WWII.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 9:07pm

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"I have followed MP since the 60's he was always a mehaie defending Israel to the bone." This doesn't seem likely, unless he posted here under another name.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 9:08pm

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"Abusers like paid Palestinian Packard are insignificant. He is ignored." Really, so why do you pay so much attention to my post, crazy Chew.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 9:11pm

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noga1. As always lovely. Thank you. What a mehei. Top quality.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 9:12pm

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It's not turret, you ignorant moron. It's Tourette syndrome and you are the only one here afflicted with this disease as well as many others. Playing the victim while attacking me and other posters isn't going to convince anyone that you are what you say you a poor afflicted man.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 9:15pm

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Now Chew is playing nice. He in his depressive phase of his bi-polar self.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 9:27pm

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I would have liked to live in Vancouver. In spite of the rain. I think.

- noga1

February 27, 2012 at 9:29pm

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"malahat, my iPad translate you as malaise. Why?" How bizarre, this ignoramus is an example of what Steve Jobs let lose on the world. All Chew knows is what he gets of his i-Pad.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 9:30pm

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Better a depressed Jaime than a manic roi.

- noga1

February 27, 2012 at 9:32pm

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noga1 Better a depressed Jaime than a manic roi." Evidence of Noga's wisdom!

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 9:36pm

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H.M. Enzensberger: Hans Magnus joined the Hitler Youth in his teens, but was expelled soon afterwards. "I have always been incapable of being a good comrade. I can't stay in line. It's not in my character. It may be a defect, but I can't help it." _______________________ There's an example for you, noga. Someone you can learn from.

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 9:36pm

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I was once in Vancouver, in transit to Seattle. The small plane flew very low and followed the coastline. Amazing vista.

- noga1

February 27, 2012 at 9:39pm

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And Obama sat at the feet of a antisemitic preacher not when he was 16 years old but when he was a fully grown up person who knew what he was being preached to for twenty years. H.M. Enzensberger wrote a very incisive article about Radical Losers. Fits roi's profile almost perfectly. http://www.signandsight.com/features/493.html "This is an understatement. For what we are dealing with here is not annoyance, but murderous rage. What the loser is obsessed with is a comparison that never works in his favour. Since the desire for recognition knows no limits, the pain threshold inevitably sinks and the affronts become more and more unbearable. The irritability of the loser increases with every improvement that he notices in the lot of others. The yardstick is never those who are worse off than himself. In his eyes, it is not they who are constantly being insulted, humbled and humiliated, but only ever him, the radical loser."

- noga1

February 27, 2012 at 9:45pm

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"Packard noga1 Better a depressed Jaime than a manic roi." Evidence of Noga's wisdom!" This silly verbal fart is proof that anger makes you stupid.

- noga1

February 27, 2012 at 9:50pm

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Ah, yes, yes, noga. Your forté is cutting and pasting, but you never understand what the things you cut and paste mean or to what they refer. You see, the facts show that it is you who are incapable of sticking to the subject at hand, who must always play the game of trying to discredit those with whom you disagree with vicious smears, lies, all sorts of vile propaganda tricks. I am not the only one who has observed your behavior. basman, mollysimon, nr, and others. The list is growing. If you are not indeed the sociopathic liar you appear to be, bereft of conscience, unable to even to discern the lies you tell here, then what has gone so very wrong in your life that you are so shriveled and curdled and consumed with venom?

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 9:54pm

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" Really, one could feel sorry for you! But that would be a mistake. "

- noga1

February 27, 2012 at 9:58pm

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If you are looking for wisdom, Packard, you are looking in the wrong place. Nothing there but a bottomless pit of frustration, rage, self-declared victimhood, and bile. And don't look too closely. A psyche that twisted is a frightening thing to behold. I think perhaps mollysimon misspoke. Not the gargoyle of the Spine, but the Gorgon of the Spine would have been more apt.

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 10:00pm

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Noga has caught Chu's disease. She thinks herself superior to everyone else. "noga1 "Packard noga1 Better a depressed Jaime than a manic roi." Evidence of Noga's wisdom!" "This silly verbal fart is proof that anger makes you stupid." Your hatred of Roi has made you incoherent. Manic is other half of manic depressive. This is something that afflicts Chew but you can't see that, can you? Roi isn't manic he is sarcastic and at times rightly so.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 10:01pm

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roidubouloi "If you are looking for wisdom, Packard, you are looking in the wrong place. Nothing there but a bottomless pit." Agree, but I am not looking for wisdom. I am having lots of fun mocking Chew for attacking my favorite posters. he is a man who shows no sign of having read anything aside from his I-Pad and he attacks anyone whose comments doesn't understand.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 10:06pm

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"one could feel sorry," but that one could not be you. That is the very nature of the sociopath, to be unable to feel sorry. Lack of conscience, the ability to do pretty much anything without any sense of remorse or responsibility, without even the awareness of doing foul things. Does that not describe you perfectly, noga? Constantly lying about someone here, engaging in atrocious behavior that you attribute to others, and incapable of recognizing it even when confronted with unambiguous evidence of same.

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 10:07pm

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malahat French I understand . Who are the Waltons? It was the tv show? Some are delighted by rain. Occasional I can take, but sunshine also delights. Here in Philadelphia has been a rainy winter. I moved from Delaware. Live in south Philadelphia the Italian section. They tell me used to be Jewish, then Irish, now Italian. Although young professionals have been moving to the area. The Italians are nice and respectful of older people, the young professionals are indifferent, not too warm. Nice area. My town house was remodeled in 2003 when I purchased it. Otherwise was built in 1929. Phony I go to say kadish for my wife in an old cemetery Jewish, now a historical site, from the 1800 's, about 10 blocks from my town house. I have her ashes with me, not buried yet. I plan to bury them with my ashes in Jerusalem, I hope my children will oblige. noga1. More like passive aggressive. It has good things and bad things. Avoids instant violence. ( good) . Late release of anger ( bad).

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 10:09pm

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Just be prepared, Packard. You have a real beast by the tail. It takes a very strong hide and a very strong stomach to deal with noga. The beast is tireless if nothing else, and the well of her bitterness truly has no bottom.

- roidubouloi

February 27, 2012 at 10:10pm

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roi I bypass the paid palestinian completely. I suggest you do the same noga1. But is up to you. roi even that we are on different camps. you are by far more superior than the paid Palestinian blogger. I ignore him(her) (it) and is good. Same goes for arnon1 ignore him. But this is a free site.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 27, 2012 at 10:41pm

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So now Chuch claims to be a poor old man who is not manic-dpressive but passive aggressive. The aggressivity is obvious but his passivity is well hidden. He has attacked with violent language every poster who has said something he disagrees with. Posters like Roi, and basman, and Arnon (he really has it in for him), and Blackton and many others. Most of the posters he attacks are way superior to him in knowledge. I have learned much from them even when I didn't agree with them. This isn't the behavior of a passive aggressive, this is the behavior of someone with an anger management problem. I suggest if he wants to be taken seriously to stop insulting people. But I doubt he will be able to do so. he wants to control the show and tell everyone what they can or can't post. When he is not insulting he uses pity to make people agree with him. I feel sorry for him, but not enough to let him take over. He is afflicted with what he thinks is Tourette Syndrome though he seems to know very little about it. All he knows is what he saw on TV.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 11:06pm

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My last sentence was cut off. I feel sorry for Chuch but not enough to let him take over the forums.

- Packard

February 27, 2012 at 11:10pm

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Iran certainly poses a threat to its neighbors, but calling it a threat to all of Western civilization is a huge leap. For better or for worse, the Obama Administration's cautious approach is the price we must pay for our rush to judgment on Iraq. One need not see Israel as the source of the region's ills to realize that a military strike is not necessarily in the United States' best interest. The Iranian people do not deserve to suffer as the Iraqis, and we should not put military personnel needlessly in harm's way. Does not the deployment of armed forces without a congressional declaration of war subvert the Constitution? Our last two presidents would see it as an executive necessity, like signing statements.

- drheingold

February 28, 2012 at 4:31am

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Packard: "Sarcastic" is not a mental illness. It ought to be obvious by now that roi is suffering from some disorder. You notice it in Jaime because his self expression is disjointed and stunted at times. Roi is very eloquent and has visions of grandeur. His eloquence impresses you so much (especially when he shares your political views) that you can't really see the disfunction in his behaviour. You are not the only one. But I think most intelligent posters are already aware. Roi is a mob inciter and a slanderer. But this has nothing to do with whatever afflicts him.

- noga1

February 28, 2012 at 6:32am

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The numbers are in. roidubouloi 82- comments, moi 66, noga 1. 60 comments. That is close to 50%+ of the 390. roi is eloquent, and honest but only posts favorable to his arguments. Gets irritated and uses obscenities. Is obsessed with internationality although these institutions have failed miserably. Very anti Israel. Brings the best of pro Israel bloggers. noga 1 is eloquent, honest, never uses obscenities. Some beautiful postings. Very sturn, strict, not kind. Fierce defender of Israel. moi informative, honest. Acervicity with fools. Fierce defender of Israel. Not bad for a guy that English is his 2nd language. noga1 I noticed your communication with the foul mouthed paid Palestinian. He called sarcastic a mental illness. He called turret syndrome of inferior arnon 1, some kind of a clan. I am sure you will educate the pig paid Palestinian , his masters should know better he is a poor embarrassment to them, they deserve better for their pay to this dirty pig. He posted 20 comments, all one liners full of insults towards my persona, although he is switching towards you. But according to MP in today's posting about yes/no/maybe Israel attacking Iran, he was gloating about this article receiving the most comments ever. He has no intention to assign a moderator. Thus I have been ignoring the creeps arnon1 and the pig paid Palestinian (Iranian). And comparing a diplomat and a lady. When the diplomat says yes it means maybe, when he says maybe means no. When the lady says no it means maybe, when she says maybe it means yes. So now I had 67 comments.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 28, 2012 at 7:35am

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"But I think most intelligent posters are already aware." Your actions quite belie your words, noga. If you believed this at all, then you would have no need instantly to resort to insults, lies, smears, and your favorite propaganda trick, inventing words to attribute to me (and others you are trying to discredit). You would, to the contrary, be satisfied that my own words would suffice to make "most intelligent posters aware." Why embellish with your falsehoods when the truth is so damning? This narrative, from which you evidently derive comfort, does explain, however, why nothing so instantly provokes your ever-simmering rage into full blossom as some other poster referring favorably to something I say. I'll go you one better: Not everyone here is yet aware that you are a serial liar (although your constant resort to insult can hardly be missed). But I have no need whatsoever to put words in your mouth. All I need to do is quote you. The circle of disgust that surrounds you is constantly growing as more and more become conscious of the pattern of your behavior and your routine inversions of reality. At the same time, the cadre of those who share your nasty proclivities mercifully grows smaller. As Peretz continues to decline visibly into dementia, his little group of foul-mouthed acolytes is winking out. Can't happen a moment too soon. Will you be the first to go, or will your pet boy, makover, be left all alone to fend for his wee self?

- roidubouloi

February 28, 2012 at 8:03am

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Oh, your comment about "visions of grandeur" was good for a laugh. You consider it self-important, a vision of grandeur, merely to try and advance a substantive point with argument. That's only because this simple act is quite beyond you. You can only fire arrows of insult and cut and paste things you have read elsewhere. No capacity whatsoever for independent thought, good or bad. If you even once succeeded in arguing to a point, who knows? It might actually be interesting.

- roidubouloi

February 28, 2012 at 8:13am

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There is no fool like an old fool and Chew is old enough for a bus load of fools. Chew get a notion and like an old dog he won't let go. To him I will always be the "Palestinian poster." Why? Because he says so and he says so because my name states with a Pee and poster starts with a Pee and Palestinian starts with a Pee. He is obsessed with posting here. Probably takes his i-Pod with him to bed. "The numbers are in. roidubouloi 82- comments, moi 66, noga 1. 60 comments. That is close to 50%+ of the 390." Must have spent half the night counting. What a waste of a life. Well it's his life such as it is.

- Packard

February 28, 2012 at 8:23am

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Someone posted a while back (I am too lazy to go back and see who it was): Well skahn we are at 323, are you going to wait and see if we reach 400? We are not quite at 400. This will get us a little closer. As a gardener, I am familiar with the concept of a "trap crop." A trap crop attracts pests (such as slugs), in the hope of keeping them away from the crops we want to harvest. Perhaps TNR uses Peretz posts as a trap crop to keep the most demented comment posters away from other comment threads. I am 68 years old. I work in the garden. I go to the gym. My wife just turned 65. She volunteers for caretakers of people with dementia, so they can get a break. (She will head out this morning for her weekly volunteer session.) We both worry about when we will become too old to care for ourselves. We both worry about whether we ourselves will become demented. I will refrain from calling anyone else demented in TNR discussion threads. You have my permission to tell me I am demented. You can't be stopped from insulting me if you think I am stupid, offensive, or (other derogatory term of your choice). I will check at least once a month to see if anyone thinks I am demented and if he or she thinks I should stop posting comments on TNR. So, to help us get to 400 comments. Should we bomb Syria, invade Syria, launch a commando attack on Syria in an effort to remove Assad, or stay out of the entire mess? By the way, telling people they are stupid seldom makes them less stupid. Telling people they are offensive seldom turns them into more acceptable and appealing people. If everybody posting comments to this discussion were in the same room, and had to look each other in the eyes, many of us probably would moderate our comments quite a bit. The rest of us would probably be too old and feeble to do much damage as we feebly struck each other with our withered old limbs. Well, I do work out at the gym and dig in the garden, so you might want to be careful if you were insulting me in person. But you are safe as long as you are just sitting here in front of your computer. OK, let's go for 400 comments! Your comments will change the world and bring you everlasting life and restore your potency! More comments! More comments! Especially here in the trap crop thread!

- skahn

February 28, 2012 at 8:49am

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If this is a trap crop, its a great idea. And the Spinesters do largely stick close to Peretz, who licenses their bad behavior with his own, and avoid most of the rest of TNR where their behavior would be greeted with astonishment. At the risk of spreading their pollution, I note that, without the Spinesters, there is a perfectly civilized discussion being conducted about Herf's article on the necessity of bombing Iran. No insults, no abuse, some disagreements, as one would wish. But if one of the Spinesters should turn up there, watch out! Will the norms of behavior that prevail elsewhere compel them to behave civilly, or will they succeed in turning into a Peretzian circus? For what it is worth, I think that Chuch has shown us the way. A Peretz thread should be utterly out of control, without a semblance of constraint, an utter shambles. It is in an ironic way the most appropriate response to Peretz himself. A display of sheer insanity in response to a display of sheer insanity.

- roidubouloi

February 28, 2012 at 9:18am

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I'll help out, skahn. Roi. You stick pretty close to Marty. Are you sure that you are not owned by your obsessions? You should be flattered by the attention that you attract..... and I think you are. Why else would you invite provocation? These insults are a way for you to experience affirmation..... and imagined superiority. I mean it's okay to think well of yourself. Hell even I fancy to own a redeeming moment or two. I know that is a stretch for you to imagine what with all of the efforting to squeeze politeness in the face of such abject ignorance. So here's to you Roi...... a real polite kind of guy.

- jacko

February 28, 2012 at 11:18am

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I insult those who first resort to abuse. In many other places at TNR, I am able to participate in thoughtful conversations without this sort of thing. That is because the crackpot group of Spinesters, the creepy, foul-mouthed, abusive crowd that consider themselves the über-friends of Israel and are drawn to Peretz like flies to shit, are not there. I invite you to read along on the Herf thread today and see how civilized people behave. The discussion is interesting, there is some sharp disagreement, no one has yet resorted to the abusive behavior that follows Peretz around like his very shadow. One can only assume that is due to his own rather disgraceful example. Do you think that, but for the history, TNR would publish what Peretz sends up on its merits?

- roidubouloi

February 28, 2012 at 11:28am

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skahn Here is the latest , I guess, about brain an Alzheimer's. Also spindle cells an between other things, empathy, intelligence, whales dolphins humans. Also mirror newborns and brain imitation. Sources PBS NOVA, Wikipedia. Type type skahn Today on PBS update on using music therapy http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2012/02/a-new-look-at-music-therapy.html I use also watching movies , good classical movies. Those I like I practice watching many times, with closed caption. I enjoy discovering nuances. Like in Hitchcock movies, discovering when momentarily he appears. Or mistakes like I caught in the Caine mutiny with Humphrey Bogart, or The Train with Burt Lancaster and Paul Scofield. I highly recommend for more than therapeutic purposes. Spindle cells. Empathy, intelligence, and such. Humans whales dolphins http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/ocean-giants/introduction/7563/ And there are the mirror neurons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron roidubluoi. With all and all I admire your capacity to bring the best of pro Israel folks like me Coming from an internationalist obsessed with failed international institutions UN, UNESCO, and such. And the illegal canard of the liberated territories. Articulate, honest (for his views, biased) But always anti Israel. BTW. MP is gloating that this article has attracted the most comments ever, despite the acervique nature of most of the comments. Just see his new article on Israel capabilities attacking Iran and destroying the nuclear reactors. Sadly, last time I checked, had attracted only 5 comments. The best by K2K about civility in bloggers, lack of them. MP ,like a forgiving father addressing brats, uses minimization of lack of civility. Who can argue with my idol. But Jews are supposed not to idolize, although I am a secular Jew Bud. roi will say Chuch insanity. nova 1 will say Jaime, sarcastic including disjointed stunted expression. I love them all. They make sooo...... happy. Insane, meschugener, never a meschumet. Bottom line there will be no war with Iran, unless they go loco...(Aaron W ?)

- JAIMECHUCH

February 28, 2012 at 11:49am

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Wow 400 hundred for the most part unintelligible posts by speinsters too addicted to know what they are saying.

- nr106646

February 28, 2012 at 12:07pm

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only seven more comments needed to beat the Peretz-post comment record from July 10, 2010: http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-spine/76185/what-you-cant-say-about-islamism-or-matter-about-islam?page=8 If I had the inclination, I would post the URL to where roid boasts about how he targets Peretz-posts, and the propaganda techniques deployed solely in Peretz comment threads to try to deter anyone from making a ghost of a comment that might give Peretz credibility.

- K2K

February 28, 2012 at 12:08pm

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"I insult those who first resort to abuse." Oy pobrecito. His feelings are hurt. Just the opposite is true. roid insults every one who dares to disagree with him or his God. For there is no God like Obama and roid is his prophet. Anyone who dissagrees with anything Obama said, did or declared has committed an act of immense heresy and treason and needs to be destroyed. Calling a Jewish woman Goebbels daughter is obviously not an insult in accordance with his idea of chivalry. We feel sorry for you pobrecito, go and wipe your tears with sandpaper.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 28, 2012 at 12:09pm

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makover: a good phrase to keep, "wipe your tears with sandpaper" I suppose this is not the place to note that roid is quite critical of Obama on some domestic policies, but adopts the Obama-acolyte mantle decorated with iterations ( one favorite iteration being "I insult those who first resort to abuse.") of The Big Lie solely on the Peretzian field of what remains of TNR.com.

- K2K

February 28, 2012 at 12:36pm

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That qualifies for the Jackie Mason joke. If she is Goebbels daughter and she is also Jewish, ie she is half Jewish half German, she hates herself but does not know why.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 28, 2012 at 12:45pm

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My feelings aren't hurt, certainly not by anything a moron like you could possibly say. It is a matter of cleaning up dodge. You and the rest of the clowns should not be permitted to take over the place. The claim that I insult people who merely disagree with me is a flat out lie. Quite in character for you and your whole bunch. I insult assholes, like you, who resort to insult because it is the only language you understand and the only way dealing with you. It has been a slow process, but I am winning, no doubt in large measure because the lot of you are soooooo f-ing stupid. That's right, Jaime. Exactly. She hates herself but does not know why. Out of the mouths of babes!!! Do some homework for once, K2K, you little pisher. I already documented here just who first started with the personal insults: noga, then her pet boy, makover, as usual. Scroll up and see for yourself before shooting your mouth off.

- roidubouloi

February 28, 2012 at 1:01pm

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I went outside and let the chickens out of the coop. Chickens have a pecking order. The head hen (named "Big Mama") pecked Moll and Lucy to keep them in their place. I presume TNR comment threads have a pecking order as well. I am not sure who pecks whom around here. I am impressed that we passed 400 comments. Three of the leading intellectual magazines in the United States are The New Republic, Harper's and The Atlantic. I used to subscribe to The Atlantic, but ran out of time and money, though I still read it at the library from time to time. I do subscribe to TNR and Harper's. The money angel at Harper's, one of the MacArthur family, is getting old, and this has created a bit of a crisis at that fine old magazine. I wrote Harper's a letter (as a subscriber) expressing my concern about the crisis there. I think I will to the new thread about Iran as I have a useless suggestion. Again, I am impressed that we passed 400. Be polite to me or I will whack you about with my cane.

- skahn

February 28, 2012 at 1:01pm

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"cleaning up Dodge" :-)

- roidubouloi

February 28, 2012 at 1:02pm

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I think I will GO to the new thread. Bad, bad, demented skahn, meaner than the junkyard hen.

- skahn

February 28, 2012 at 1:03pm

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K2K: Maybe he is maybe not. I couldn't care less. In the exchanges I participated, whenever disagreement arises, roid resorts to insults. He reminds me of the bully who always cries: "mommy, he hit me first".

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 28, 2012 at 1:04pm

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Obviously the idiot roid is upset. Go cry to mommy. The bad, bad Israelis are taking over his dominion and demonstrating that he is an imbecile, bully and an idiot. Is that what bothers you poopsie?

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 28, 2012 at 1:15pm

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makover: I thought Romney was "... the bully who always cries: "mommy, he hit me first"." but, yes, in Peretz threads, that sure describes Romney's secret proxy embed at TNR.com: the roid :) Give it a rest roid, you can not claim in every Peretz thread that someone else "started the name-calling". Once upon a time, you used that identical attack lie on me. Really, find another hobby - maybe wood chopping, with a real ax. It is a competitive sport in Finland, which might explain why they are so calm otherwise.

- K2K

February 28, 2012 at 1:17pm

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i notice skahn does not answer my comments addressed to him. fine. what are you afraid of. you dont have dementia. you have become a coward, you are a chicken. good pestilence riddance.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 28, 2012 at 1:18pm

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I wonder of TNR would be willing to flag commenters when and where ad hominem begins. Given the wildfires Peretz sets off it would be nice to know when to clear the area, get out of town. *sigh*

- Tgossard

February 28, 2012 at 1:23pm

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JAIMECHUCH "i notice skahn does not answer my comments addressed to him. fine. what are you afraid of. you dont have dementia. you have become a coward, you are a chicken. good pestilence riddance." Another example of the work of a "manic depressive," or of a passive aggressive?" I see no passivity here just aggression and against a poster who doesn't usually attack others. Chew is like a bad penny who keeps turning up.

- Packard

February 28, 2012 at 1:32pm

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Scroll up, makover, if you dare, and see yourself being the first to resort to insult. Despite your pitiful whimpering, people are little by little figuring out just who are the abusers. But then, if you think it is of no importance who casts the first stone, why are you always whining about insults? I never complain about them. I do point out when you lie about who is the first to resort to this behavior, because I want it to be clear to all that you are a liar. But I never complain. I just smack you silly. It is, I admit, a lot of fun, because a putz like you so richly deserves it. So, just get into the fray and see if you can give as good as you get. No evidence that you have the mental or verbal agility for that, but why not stop your whining and make the best of the opportunity? Be a man for a change, not such a weenie little boy.

- roidubouloi

February 28, 2012 at 2:12pm

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But it wasn't a lie, K2K. It was the truth then, as it is the truth now. I always provide the exact citation, as I did again in this thread. That of course doesn't keep cowards and liars like you from repeating lies to cover your tracks, but the truth is there for anyone who cares to scroll up and read. Just start at the top and make a note of each place where the ad hominem begins. You will discover, with absolute certainty, that I don't attack someone with insult who has not attacked me first. Not today, not ever. The pitiful thing is that all the lot of you manage to do with this is constantly reveal the fact that you have no persuasive arguments to offer for the things you believe. I have plenty, some people are persuaded, some not. But I don't have any need for this sort of thing. I have plenty to say. You and the rest of the Spine acolytes do this because you all lack the capacity to think clearly and speak persuasively. On a good day, you meander. The rest of the time you are incoherent. That soon dissolves into spitting frustration. Over, and over, and over again.

- roidubouloi

February 28, 2012 at 2:18pm

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roid: You can't smack a 2 year old baby you schmuck. All you know how to do is to kvetch.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 28, 2012 at 3:36pm

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Hurricane storms island of whining nihilist little coward kills all his chickens. The curse is on the fatwah is on.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 28, 2012 at 3:40pm

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Packard, Thank you for your supportive comment. As far as answering comments to me, there is some old saying about the person who lies down with dogs, gets up with fleas. After my cataract surgery three years ago, my eyes see better than they did when I got glasses in first grade, but I am not sure they see well enough to make it practical to address every flea in the neighborhood by name. My chickens are surprisingly quick at pecking little bugs up out of the dirt, and on at least two occasions I have seen one of our hens catch and kill a mouse in their chicken run. Don't be disrespectful to chickens.

- skahn

February 28, 2012 at 4:08pm

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The whining nihilist joins forces with the pig paid Palestinian (Iranian) , camel manure will join chickens manure. He fears alzheimers, when his problem is cowardice. When all his chickens are dead who will collect the feathers. And the beggar wanted me to send the Johns Hopkins report as a birthday present. Wishing the hurricane comes. Forwarded info on brain therapy to this innocuous little whistle. May all of his chickens be dead.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 28, 2012 at 4:44pm

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S Kahn, anytime. Gee I need to contact Ahmadinejad since I haven't received any monies for the work I am doing for him. The same goes for Mahmut Abbas (however you spell his name) and The Palestinian Authority.

- Packard

February 28, 2012 at 5:20pm

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poor Chew everyone is ganging up against him. If we are not careful we will make him paranoid. Not that he needs much of a push.

- Packard

February 28, 2012 at 5:21pm

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Maybe we can reach 500 comments in this thread by the weekend? Packard I am sorry that Ahmadinejad's money did not reach you. In my last job I met quite a Muslims and quite a few people from Iran, who struck me as normal people who just wanted to raise their children and make a living in peace. Although many knew I was an unbeliever of Jewish ancestry, none of them threatened me or tried to kill me. When I mention this somebody -- is it Noga? -- accused me of being a naive fool. As one of my former students (from when I was a high school teacher) was recently released from her "life sentence" for murdering her husband, I know that human beings are vicious killers and haters. Some of them are Jews. Some of them are Christians. Some of them are Muslims. Some of them are Buddhists. Some of them are Iranians. Some of them are Syrians. Some of them are Swedes. Wherever you go, prepare to be nice and prepare to defend yourself against scorpions wanting a ride across the river.

- skahn

February 28, 2012 at 6:57pm

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"who struck me as normal people who just wanted to raise their children and make a living in peace. Although many knew I was an unbeliever of Jewish ancestry, none of them threatened me or tried to kill me. When I mention this somebody -- is it Noga? -- " Really? I said this? When? Where did I tell you you were a naive fool for respecting Muslims? You thought it was mighty grand of you to tell us how you told a Bin Laden joke to a Muslim colleague and he laughed! So, who is the bigot, skahn? You actually think that stating here how Iranians are "normal people who just wanted to raise their children and make a living in peace." makes you look broad-minded. Well, it doesn't. It makes you look bigoted and condescending.

- noga1

February 28, 2012 at 7:12pm

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asskahn Is nihilist chicken shit fed atheist. He keeps whining and whining. Afraid of Alzheimer's he has entered the dementia stage. Brainless commentator. Nobody knows what he stands for . Has joined forces with the pig paid Palestinian (Iranian) vermin. They eat together camel chicken yogurized manure. The chickens will be killed by a hurricane by the will of the almighty.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 28, 2012 at 9:57pm

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JAIMECHUCH "asskahn Is nihilist chicken shit fed atheist. He keeps whining and whining. Afraid of Alzheimer's he has entered the dementia stage. Brainless commentator. Nobody knows what he stands for . Has joined forces with the pig paid Palestinian (Iranian) vermin. They eat together camel chicken yogurized manure. The chickens will be killed by a hurricane by the will of the almighty." WOW Let's preserve this for posterity. How was he filled with so much hatred and bile?

- nr106646

February 28, 2012 at 10:42pm

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For more on this discussion and an analysis of Iran's intentions read: http://streetsmartpolitics.com/?p=507

- davidb

February 29, 2012 at 10:34am

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I have a hard time following this stream-of-consciousness posting. Is there a point somewhere? Has anyone written a credible, at-least-half dispassionate analysis of what Iran is likely to do and what we should do? I don't think this is it.

- mlottman

February 29, 2012 at 11:51am

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"Is nihilist chicken shit fed atheist. He keeps whining and whining. Afraid of Alzheimer's he has entered the dementia stage. Brainless commentator. Nobody knows what he stands for. Has joined forces with the pig paid Palestinian (Iranian) vermin. They eat together camel chicken yogurized manure. The chickens will be killed by a hurricane by the will of the almighty." Hm. I've seen some oozing racist pus in my time, but mostly not here at TNR. Looks like Jaime is a reverse evolutionary project, like something returning to the cockroach stage, except he makes the cockroaches seem like noble creatures.

- ironyroad

February 29, 2012 at 5:31pm

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Interesting comment, ironyroad. It seems that there are times when your moral equanimity at some extremely salacious invective is perturbed after all. I wonder what is the difference between Chuch's vitriol and roi's verbal attacks on me as a Nazi, Goebbels' twin or whatever, vermin of the earth, cockroach, subhuman gargoyle, and a lot more that escapes mt memory at the moment. And what about basman's vulgarities towards me as a cunt, and some very graphic description of a naked body in the ugliest positions. That was not racist. That was sexist and acceptable? Or does your moral outrage only come to life when the speaker is so obviously an Obama hater? Please don't bother to respond unless you have a very good explanation for the double standard. BTW, you choose to join the madding mob against Chuch when it should be obvious to you that there is something not quite right in the way he expresses himself. You are after all a man of the world and should be able to recognize a disorder when you see it and feel pity for him, not this kind of sanctimonious tripe.

- noga1

February 29, 2012 at 6:44pm

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To the best of my knowledge, Noga, roid hasn't referred to entire peoples as "vermin." And, although I didn't mean my comment to be about the purely personal attacks, I would note that the last time I protested to roid about some invective or poisonous comment he made about you, you responded to that gesture by immediately turning on me. You told me to stuff it, or words to that effect.

- ironyroad

February 29, 2012 at 8:33pm

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nr I don't read your posters. You are wasting your time.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 29, 2012 at 8:52pm

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ironyroad I already told you, stick to repairing grammar noga1 As for mental illness nasty people are hardly experts. Either the person is nice or else should shut up. There are no mediums. Putting down people incites responses that the nasty person can not handle. Why nasty people are unable to respond when somebody is nice to them? Do they believe that by being nice it shows weakness? Indeed by not answering being nice, they show a great deal of insecurity. On the other hand the site has extreme people like roidubouloi who's anti Israel is too obsessive. However he is able to respond kindly to kindness. It is something one should Think about, and improve on it. Even at an old age, there can be improvement into nicety response to nicety.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 29, 2012 at 9:17pm

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"To the best of my knowledge, Noga, roid hasn't referred to entire peoples as "vermin."" No. He only said that REpublicans should all be exterminated, to the last one of them. Sorry I can't provide the exact quote. But it was quite a gem. It is gratifying to know that you consider roi to be a cut above Chuch, ethically speaking. I did ask you to respond if only you had a good explanation for the double standard. But this will suffice for me to understand finally what I need to understand about you.

- noga1

February 29, 2012 at 9:18pm

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Nr Ask asskahn for the reasons. I was quite nice to him, trying to help with his Alzheimer's paranoia, by providing information and sources. But suddenly he stopped communicating with me, it annoyed me. Hover I have found the reason. I also posted my religious feelings. I am secular and at the same time I am deeply religious. I am very Jewish, but also budhist. And I made comments on the recent passing of Gunther Plaut the Reform Rabbi that wrote a Modern Commentary Of the Torah , whose usage of English and Hebrew, plus commentaries revived me in what I call a newborn Jew. This is the reason I now conclude why asskahn stopped communicating with me. He has stated repeatedly he is nihilist anti religion born otherwise Jewish. And he whines constantly his paranoid feelings. But now that I know the reasons, I will ignore/bypass his comments.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 29, 2012 at 9:38pm

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miottman Iran is a militaristic, terrorist country. I won't repeat details. Also Iranian leaders have indicated their objective is to destroy Israel. Until now they used proxies to wage war against Israel , Hizbollah/Lebanon, Hamas/ Gaza. They have attacked Jewish institutions, in Argentina. Now they are developing nuclear weapons. Certainly Israel has made clear they will attack and try to destroy the Iranian nuclear reactors. The Obama administration has applied sanctions against Iran and objects to military action, unless very very clearly needed. Not only the USA will avoid military action, but wants also Israel to wait and see. This is as it stands. There is a flurry of consultations between the Obama administration and the Israelis going on. It is anybodies guess what will be done by USA, Israel, Iran. I guess hopefully reason, calm, avoid war is what we want. But Iran is a difficult partner, and looks dangerous.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 29, 2012 at 10:08pm

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Noga says: "No. He only said that Republicans should all be exterminated, to the last one of them. Sorry I can't provide the exact quote. But it was quite a gem. It is gratifying to know that you consider roi to be a cut above Chuch, ethically speaking." Another lie by Goebbels little girl. Had you been there, you would have been a Nazi. I have never said that anyone or ones should be exterminated. Not ever. Go ahead and spin your wheels trying to find this quote you invented, you sick beast. I think basman's comments about you were spot on, noga. He is a gentleman, but I can easily understand why even he is provoked by a sociopathic liar like you. Calling you vermin is an insult to rats. Evil, unprincipled, inveterate liar. The single worst human being I have ever encountered. To find worse, I have to read historical or newspaper accounts.

- roidubouloi

February 29, 2012 at 10:20pm

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http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-spine/79401/obamas-foreign-policy-needs-reset " What Obama was most unprepared for is the reality that the enemies of America are not just the Iranians, Moslem terrorists, the Chinese, and such, but the entire American right." "Every last one of them is an enemy of the United States of America, happy intentionally to damage the nation for the purpose of unseating Obama, happy to side with our enemies and make our problems, such as unemployment, worse for the purpose of unseating Obama, even willing to declare that the purpose of power in the hands of the Republican party is not to address the problems of the nation but to unseat Obama. And what they will do for personal greed is unspeakable. They are enemies. We are in a life and death struggle with them for the future of our nation, or whether it even has much of a future. Traitors, scoundrels, liars and thieves one and all."

- noga1

February 29, 2012 at 10:30pm

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JAIMECHUCH "Nr Ask asskahn for the reasons. I was quite nice to him, trying to help with his Alzheimer's paranoia, by providing information and sources. But suddenly he stopped communicating with me, it annoyed me." Jaime, I have a hunch that 99% of your anger is directed at people you think ignored you or didn't agree with you. Not just Mr. Kahn who is a pretty nice guy on the whole. But it's not just Kahn there is Irony also a pretty good fellow and Arnon and Roid two really smart posters and Basman who seldom get angry at anyone. I was really surprised when you went after Sophia. She is a little sentimental but has a good heart. You can't force people to either agree with you or agree with you. Just let it go. The kind of anger you demonstrate here is really crazy and unhealthy. These posters are not your enemy. I hope you will think about what I wrote here. If posters ignore you ignore them back. That's life.

- nr106646

February 29, 2012 at 10:31pm

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What to make of this? 02/29/2012 - 8:52pm EDT | JAIMECHUCH nr I don't read your posters. You are wasting your time. Then this: 02/29/2012 - 9:38pm EDT | JAIMECHUCH "Nr Ask asskahn for the reasons. I was quite nice to him, trying to help with his Alzheimer's paranoia, by providing information and sources. But suddenly he stopped communicating with me, it annoyed me." Jaime is a little forgetful.

- nr106646

February 29, 2012 at 10:34pm

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noga1 "Interesting comment, ironyroad. It seems that there are times when your moral equanimity at some extremely salacious invective is perturbed after all. I wonder what is the difference between Chuch's vitriol and roi's verbal attacks on me as a Nazi,..." There is a big difference between you and Roid attacking each other. Its' like a TV show with two smart characters always going at each other. It's hard to take seriously. I wish there were a laugh track when I read yours and Roids comments. You are both too predictable. I don't need to read the whole comment before I can guess what comes next. Irony anger at Jaime is understandable as I tried to explain above. Your attack on Irony was uncalled for since he didn't mention you in his post.

- nr106646

February 29, 2012 at 10:38pm

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Here is the full quote that noga selectively edits in order to cover up her disgusting lies: Every last one of them is an enemy of the United States of America, happy intentionally to damage the nation for the purpose of unseating Obama, happy to side with our enemies and make our problems, such as unemployment, worse for the purpose of unseating Obama, even willing to declare that the purpose of power in the hands of the Republican party is not to address the problems of the nation but to unseat Obama. And what they will do for personal greed is unspeakable. They are enemies. We are in a life and death struggle with them for the future of our nation, or whether it even has much of a future. Traitors, scoundrels, liars and thieves one and all. I suspect this is the sentiment that noga finds so odious. But, it is true none-the-less. And we know perfectly well where noga would find her political company if she were an American. Time to ratchet up the rhetoric and go hand to hand with these insane sons of bitches in the same hyperbolic terms in which they attack the left. We need open political warfare in America, with two sides engaged, not just one. Then the matter can reach some resolution -- either they are marginalized, finally, or they get a free hand to wreck the place. Appeasement is not an option any longer. _______________________ The operative words are: "Time to ratchet up the rhetoric and go hand to hand with these insane sons of bitches in the same hyperbolic terms in which they attack the left. We need open political warfare in America, with two sides engaged, not just one. Then the matter can reach some resolution -- either they are marginalized, finally, or they get a free hand to wreck the place. Appeasement is not an option any longer." The end of the "battle" is either marginalization of the right or its control. Not anyone's extermination. That noga sees no difference between rhetorical and political battle and extermination is exactly why I feel certain that, had she been there, she would have been a Nazi. There is no distinction in her mind between words and murder. And there is no lie she will not tell. ________________________ These words by me were written well before the Republican's debt ceiling hostage crisis. I would say that I was quite prescient about them. The struggle is life and death, but not their deaths, the life and death of our country. If the nuts ever do get control, there is every reason to fear.

- roidubouloi

February 29, 2012 at 10:44pm

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Cue laugh track.

- roidubouloi

February 29, 2012 at 10:46pm

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"Irony anger at Jaime is understandable as I tried to explain above." ironyroad's anger is highly selective. I wanted to make this point to him, as he considers himself very fair minded. I consider him fair minded (up to a point, Obama-point) which is why I find such comments as he addressed to Chuch shocking. It is obvious that Chuch is suffering from some disorder and I cannot imagine ironyroad not being aware of it. In the past there were some attempts by some posters to call ironyroad an antisemite. I never allowed it to go unchallenged. Even when I was at loggerheads with him about some subject. That's because I know him. Apparently he also knows me well enough to keep quiet when some poster calls me a cunt or "Evil, unprincipled, inveterate liar. The single worst human being I have ever encountered. To find worse, I have to read historical or newspaper accounts."

- noga1

February 29, 2012 at 10:53pm

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"Your attack on Irony was uncalled for since he didn't mention you in his post." It is ever thus. Invariably, it is noga who first attacks other posters, then, if there is a response, she whines and complains that she is being victimized. This too is a propaganda technique of Goebbels, claiming that the Nazis were being victimized by the Jews supposedly doing to the Nazis exactly what the Nazis were in fact doing to the Jews. The inversion of reality is so complete and utterly brazen that no one can believe it is nothing more than an outrageous lie.

- roidubouloi

February 29, 2012 at 10:53pm

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"Evil, unprincipled, inveterate liar. The single worst human being I have ever encountered. To find worse, I have to read historical or newspaper accounts." That about sums it up. And I do note nr's comment that basman seldom gets angry at anyone. But he is utterly disgusted by noga, as any decent person should be.

- roidubouloi

February 29, 2012 at 10:55pm

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There might be another reason for asskahn not talking to me. I gave him the reference of new report on Alzheimer's published by John Hopkins . It sells for $20. he said had gone to his three libraries, had other reports but not the one on Alzheimer's. Then to my astonishment we proposed for me to purchase it as a February birthday present for his wife . I answered him that he could get it from his libraries through the interlibrary exchange system which is free. He indicated that the money was going to be used for purchasing soil for plants. He was short of money. At any rate. asskahn has the camouflash, mask, of politeness, humility and ultimate condescension . When it comes to religion his personality changes to utter antagonism, and hatred. But I consider his cutting communications, w/o explanation, to my well intended kindness to him worst than the worst of insults. He knows it, and knows it well. There is nothing to do but to wait for my curse to arrive . The storm that will hit his island and kill all of his chickens.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 29, 2012 at 11:23pm

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Well now is time for the noga1 and roidubouloi kiss and makover show. Why do they do it? Maybe to polish their highly articulate talents. It helps to rejuvenate the brain. There asskahn is something worth looking into it.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 29, 2012 at 11:31pm

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"But this will suffice for me to understand finally what I need to understand about you." I don't think it's your understanding of me that's really at issue, Noga.

- ironyroad

February 29, 2012 at 11:32pm

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Oh yes, I forgot -- I'd point out once again that when I did come to your defense, you then attacked me, because apparently that wasn't good enough.

- ironyroad

February 29, 2012 at 11:35pm

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I have been watching for the up-tenth time the movie Lawrence of Arabia. To understand the Middle East this movie teaches the fundamentals. How the British chased the Turks from Arab lands assisted by nomadic Arab armies coordinated by major Lawrence maverick idealistic leadership. How the British General, Allenby, an unscrupulous, brilliant, closely advised by the top foreign officer kept British priorities assured. How King Faisal had to compromise. How Turkish military violence is met with Arab violence. The brilliant taken of Aqaba by Lawrence leading the nomadic Arabs troops. And finally the conquest of Damascus . Then Lawrence, the idealist wanting Arab independence, is promoted and send back to England. King Faisal tells Allenby, glad you and I got read of him. Then the British and King Faisal settle sharing Damascus, as Claude Rains, playing the British foreign officer ,says wisely, will have the power House run by British engineers flying the Arab flag. This was before oil . At the end the British, and minor the French, now dominated the Middle East. They replaced the Turks. And my comments are my own. The British made sure the Arab leaders will be corrupt and easy to manipulate. The Arab masses will have as little independence as possible. The Jews , and later Israel, having leaders caring for their people, would be obstructed and confronted, British unable to control them. British were always masterful at divide and conquer. India Pakistan, Arabs and Jews. And when they departed, left future hatred, violence, wars, misery. To this day. Although the Arab Spring might change things for the better. The early signs are encouraging. Patience , give time to time.

- JAIMECHUCH

March 1, 2012 at 5:51am

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Typo... "got rid of him".....

- JAIMECHUCH

March 1, 2012 at 5:56am

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before I am assaulted by grammar specialist ironyroad, or ignored nr

- JAIMECHUCH

March 1, 2012 at 5:58am

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Here is The New York Times with the Israeli view of attacking or not Iran nuclear developments and what is expected from Obama as a response. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/01/opinion/israels-last-chance-to-strike-iran.html?_r=1&hp

- JAIMECHUCH

March 1, 2012 at 6:11am

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I asked you not to do me any favours. As you would, if I defended you by saying, oh, I know ironyroad and have as much to say about his complicated and often ambiguous views about Jews and Israel and the fact that often his opinions are indistinguishable from Bzrezinski's. OK. I have even a longer list of doubts about him, but but but ... I'll tell you this much: he is not antisemitic. (My understanding of you may not be the issue, but it is an unexpected bonus coming out of this shit thread.)

- noga1

March 1, 2012 at 7:02am

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It ironyroad too comes to understand what a piece of shit you are, that would be an unexpected bonus.

- roidubouloi

March 1, 2012 at 7:28am

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As would you, if I defended you on the grounds that you were not an antisemite by pointing out that basically and otherwise I share this view of you with your attacker. Which is what you did. Oh, yes, I have as much to say in noga's discredit as any of you, even more actually, but I disagree on this little point. Like I said, don't do me any favours, ironyroad. As for my understanding of you not being at issue, well yes of course. But it is an unexpected bonus, you have to admit.

- noga1

March 1, 2012 at 7:38am

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Roi: you are a frightening slanderer and a mob inciter. Look up stalker syndrome and learn who you are. You are also a boot-licking coward who likes to sidle up to those you consider to have integrity so as to recruit their decency for your own reptilian pursuits. It is unfortunate that IR is being tainted by your relentless seeking of his complicity in that snake pit you call your mind.

- noga1

March 1, 2012 at 7:47am

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I really don't know what ironys thinking is. I use him only to fix my grammar. Now you talk about my diseases you can not pinpoint. Although you and I agree in major points. I find you to be a very nasty person constantly insulting. I don't want to use the insulting J...A...., and give ammunition to roi..dent in your back and forth diatribes. Although both of you are smart articulate, your venomosity of both of you is plain chicanery. Oh sure roi..dent is more leud and ultra misogynistic, self hatred anti-Israel, and highly dishonest manipulative of his international failed obsessions. But it would be an improvement if you tried to be nice once in a while, you are too bitter, sour, angry and that diminishes your message. BTW I never called irony...grammar an anti-Semite. I stopped paying attention to his messages, he is not smart, only good for grammar. If you continue nasty, and degrading, I will have to address you as nebeile and J...A.... Because with your bitter ugly ways you don't help our objectives. Anyhow asskahn paranoid of becoming dementia prone, would help him if he prays to a superior being. And he gets away of insulting religion ,Almighty, and religion practitioners. It surely will help him if he stopped whining. He sounds suicidal. Maybe my curse will make him even sadder , the wish that a storm will come and kill all of his chickens so dear to him. He went to the psychiatrist, tells him my wife thinks she is a chicken. Psychiatrist says where is your wife, he answers next room. Psychiatrist says let her in. Door opens and she comes in..... a chicken. BTW. Obama says apologies to the Afghanis is working. Soon after two more NATO military were assassinated by Afghan soldiers. And talking of apologies the son of reverend Billy Graham, himself a reverend, has apologized to Obama for doubting his Christian fate. Got confused when he found Obama's middle name was Hussein. Remember when reverend Billy Graham, himself, uttered anti-Semitic statements? Did he ever apologized?

- JAIMECHUCH

March 1, 2012 at 7:51am

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All a bunch of your standard lies in worshipful mimicry of Josef Goebbels. Slander you? Impossible. I cannot even think of anything to say that is as awful, as hideous, as you are in reality. Words are inadequate. Stalk you? That would be like stalking a pit full of venomous snakes. I wish to be as far away from you as humanly possible. But as you cannot refrain from making me, and plenty of others, your targets, that is not possible. You are a diseased person and you spread that disease, the effluent of your psychopathology, over these pages. You stink.

- roidubouloi

March 1, 2012 at 8:06am

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I can guess that basman was equally frustrated in being unable to find words fully to express his horror of you. Calling you a cunt doesn't even scratch the surface of how odious, how repellent you are. But it is a mark of frustration that words have run out. There simply aren't words for you, at least none that I know of.

- roidubouloi

March 1, 2012 at 8:13am

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noga1. I read your 6:44pm poster. You are a nebeili, JAP Jewish American Princess. You are definitely one of those Jewish matrons that create hatred that create anti-Semites. You are bitter, very bitter. Hell , roidubouloi is a real gentleman, and I agree with him in all the characterizations of your stinking persona. Putrefaction nebeile, putrefact JAP. May you be rotting in hell for your salacious brain. roidubouloi in his wrong ways brings the best in me You bastardly Jewish American Princess, or Jewish Israeli Princess, brings the worst in me. You are too venomous to be real, fool of bitterness. Hence this is the last comment I will issue, from now on I will skip your utterly nasty comments. You are not pro Israel, you are a reverend prick JAP. Or prick JIP. noga in Hebrew is venus. You are no Venus, you are a stinky whore. I apologize to the whores for comparing to this female vermin. How hateful you can be, how can you live with yourself. I hope somebody comes and rapes you many many times, until we will never hear from you. What piece of human garbage, mentally distorted you are. You should be put away in the dangerous locked for life mental institution. You are dangerous to the upmost. Spreading hate all over.

- JAIMECHUCH

March 1, 2012 at 8:27am

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roi your comment of 8:06 is very true. noga is a very sick person , I am surprised she has not been institutionalized.

- JAIMECHUCH

March 1, 2012 at 8:33am

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It is a clear sign she is descending into dementia, she is already there, she is venomous to the maximum. the question is how can she live with herself this nebeile, JAP.

- JAIMECHUCH

March 1, 2012 at 8:37am

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noga: I do believe it is time for all rational commenters to put this thread out of it's misery. Those who came here to verbally abuse the rational amongst us should get a room. Let them slime together, preferably in a dank rendition site where they can only hear each other for eternity...

- K2K

March 1, 2012 at 8:58am

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"Those who came here to verbally abuse the rational amongst us should get a room. Let them slime together, preferably in a dank rendition site where they can only hear each other for eternity..." Excellent suggestion. You are invited, along with the rest of the Spine refugees. Maybe Peretz will call on you there and you can all relive the glory of his dementia and your wallowing in it.

- roidubouloi

March 1, 2012 at 9:04am

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K2K Do you call noga rational? She just indulges in insulting everybody and more. Seldom talks about items on topic. Her disposition is to look for fights, disruptions. You are an absent commentator. Noga keeps insulting and we degenerate insulting . Your calls for civility are too little too late. Make the effort and read the comments, do not be arbitrary and hence dishonest. noga is a sick person, enjoys insulting people, even those that have the same agenda, like me of being pro Israel. Your comments are civil , on topic, informative. You blog infrequently, your comments are more than welcome. I wish most comments would be civil and to topic. But how do you handle disruptive commentators that just come to insult people personally. Look at noga, arnon, nr.., ironyroad, blackton. Recently a paid Palestinian (Iranian) blogger infested this site exclusively insulting me. I stopped reading his garbage bypassing him. Yes when I disagreed and attacked Tristan, he resorted to just personal insults, until you stopped him. I guess I touched a raw nerve, I did not personally attacked him, I was maybe harsh. In the case of skahn he was discriminatory towards me, until I discovered his aversion to my religious feelings and I understood his bias towards religious humans leads him to discrimination. But noga is out of hand , her insulting looking down on people leads to incitement. Provokes the worst reaction on me and roidubouloi in particular. She has to behave , if she respects, she will be respected. But is in her nature , I am afraid to say, that she has a very nasty disposition, and makes civil communications impossible. I repeat roidubouloi and I have different opinions but he brings the best in me. noga and I agree on being pro Israel, however she puts me down, insults, brings the worst in me. She is too nasty, too angry, a person.

- JAIMECHUCH

March 1, 2012 at 9:49am

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"I asked you not to do me any favours. As you would, if I defended you by saying, oh, I know ironyroad and have as much to say about his complicated and often ambiguous views about Jews and Israel and the fact that often his opinions are indistinguishable from Bzrezinski's. OK. I have even a longer list of doubts about him, but but but ... I'll tell you this much: he is not antisemitic." Noga, that is NOT a fair characterization of what I said about you. So I don't understand the double-standard accusation. I think I've been a fair and courteous interlocutor most of the time, and sometimes under pressure too. You keep trying to rope me in with other posters, and (a) I won't be so roped and (b) I don't understand why you keep doing it when it's so silly.

- ironyroad

March 1, 2012 at 10:48am

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And what about Chuch and his designation of entire peoples as "vermin"? That's ok? I should have let that one pass?

- ironyroad

March 1, 2012 at 10:49am

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"And what about Chuch and his designation of entire peoples as "vermin"? That's ok? I should have let that one pass?" Ironyroad, you see what Chuch's comments are like. There is obviously something quite irrational and inconsistent about them. So how can you even take them seriously enough to engage with him? I don't know if you remember the kerfuffle over the film "A Beautiful mind" which was nominated for an Oscar and people came out saying oh, that John Nash was an antisemite and his life should not be thus honoured etc etc. Many people came out rightly and said: the man is a schizophrenic; paranoia is his sickness, exactly what he was fighting against, so how can you accuse him of saying antisemitic things when obviously it was just an aspect of his terrible mental sickness? You can't expect from a blind man to know colour and if a blind man describes red as if it were green, would it matter to you? The man knows neither red nor green. So what's the point correcting him? ___________ You are marginally right that my characterization was a bit harsher than what you actually said about me but the point remains that you only defended me AFTER establishing a commonality of opinion with my accuser. I don't do that. I don't see the point of defending someone while at the same time undermining my own argument by conceding that that someone is almost everything the other says about them, and more.

- noga1

March 1, 2012 at 11:47am

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K2K: Ok.

- noga1

March 1, 2012 at 12:01pm

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I know this sounds like I just thought it up, quite honestly, but for many weeks now I have thought that Chuch's whole deal is just an act -- he's having us on, in other words. The weird syntax always seems to have a real core plus a fake performance, you know, like the letter in the crime thriller where the criminal is trying to appear less educated than he actually is. I mean, this is one reason I try to stay out of the firing line between other posters. I don't understand what you mean "commonality of opinion" but obviously there are going to be a lot of overlaps between people and I think you are inclined make them about vice or virtue. To be almost banal about it: the fact that I agree with, say, roid about some political issues doesn't mean I join in some associative way with his personal attacks on you or anyone else. I shouldn't have to explain that.

- ironyroad

March 1, 2012 at 12:13pm

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Poor noga1 the nebeile and JAP, JIP, I ignore you and don't read your rantings. You should get mental health professional help. You bring the worst in people. roidubouloi brings the best in people noga in Hebrew means Venus. But this noga is no Venus. She reminds me of the picture of Dorian gray in his last days. If you are a survivor of the Holocaust, you sound like one of those experiments of Mengele. You are very vile, arrogant, insulting, and low class. Nebeile, JAP, JIP.

- JAIMECHUCH

March 1, 2012 at 12:37pm

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It is my opinion, ironyroad, based on my longtime experience on cyberspace that posters who try to keep up a persona can never quite pull it off. It's like trying to keep speaking in an accent you are mimicking for some reason. It can never be fully maintained and the real accent always manages to come out. I think Chuch's performance has been consistently erratic from the first time he appeared on these boards. If he is pretending, he must be an exceptionally focused individual. I don't get that impression. And speaking of accents, did you ever get to see "The Artist"? If not, are you planning to?

- noga1

March 1, 2012 at 12:43pm

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Your credibility is zero. You are a nebeile, you are a JAP. You bring the worst in people. Your despicable insulting is a result of your insecurity. Get treatment for your psychiatric disability. Venus you are not. You are a female version of mr Hide. My goodness with friends like this Israel doesn't need enemies. You should learn from roidubouloi, he brings the best in people. Even that he is no friend of Israel .

- JAIMECHUCH

March 1, 2012 at 12:57pm

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BTW. Nebeile is a flaccid old cow. Everybody knows what a JAP is. An insulting arrogant insecure female vermin. No surprises here why with such a defender everybody demonizes Israel. She should take her vitriolic putting down people to the nearest mental hospital. Oh roidubouloi you are so right, this nebeile JAP is completely nuts. Is time to ignore her. Very negativity. In thermodynamics they call it entropy, wasted energy. Good energy is enthalpy. There is a small demon putting the generated entropy into a box, this JAP is such a demon. Each time she blogs generates entropy, wasteful very wasteful. But MP gloats about this. Would MP have this JAP in the basement locked up, and release her To his blogs? Anything is possible.

- JAIMECHUCH

March 1, 2012 at 1:15pm

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Now she is communicating with irony the grammar expert that is not too smart. Poor nebeile, poor JAP. Watch it roidubouloi this nebeile will come after you shortly.

- JAIMECHUCH

March 1, 2012 at 1:20pm

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Noga, maybe you're right. I have been wrong about this -- I was very puzzled by that George guy who haunted us around three years ago. I haven't. Sometimes I'm nervous about seeing movies that are unusual -- I have to be prodded into it. I did see A Dangerous Method, however, and was won over by the end.

- ironyroad

March 1, 2012 at 2:42pm

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I haven't seen DM. But I'll try to see it this weekend. As for "The Artist" please try to watch it. The banal story may make you very impatient but there is a twist and a knot in the second half which makes the film truly philosophical, once you get past the cliches. And Bejo is very easy on the eye so you can't lose much :)

- noga1

March 1, 2012 at 2:56pm

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Chuch: I knew a woman who was experimented upon by Mengele. She was my next door neighbour, a beautiful Hungarian Jewish woman. Periodically I would see her walking about with her wrists bandaged. I asked my mother for the meaning of it. She told me about the experiments and that the woman every few months tried to kill herself by slashing her wrists. I could never imagine something like that would become an insult in another Jew's arsenal of insults. Shame on you.

- noga1

March 1, 2012 at 3:13pm

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Something really weird is going on with JaimesitoChew. ( I am quoting someone here.) He is either a moron or crazy hard to tell which has the upper hand his craziness or his moronic need to insult even people like Noga who offer heart felt defenses of Israel. There is no upside to engaging Jaime, none. Today he likes Roid tomorrow he'll spit on him too. Chew is some kind of plant. Maybe someone who really hates Peretz brought him here to destroy the discussion threads..

- Packard

March 1, 2012 at 4:41pm

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It might be interesting if noga ever actually managed to offer a defense of Israel. Years have gone by and so far noga's defenses consist entirely of attacking Israel's critics with smears and lies, pointing out the some other country somewhere is worse, pointing out that their really are anti-Semites who hate Jews and Israel, or Yiddish fables about horses.

- roidubouloi

March 1, 2012 at 4:52pm

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I was thinking about it from her point of view. For one who is not involved in these fights I fail to understand why Jamie would attack Noga they both share a passionate commitment to Israel, each in their own way criticize/attack those who they think don't defend Israel and yet Jaime attacks Noga as if she were a relative of Arafat. Does that make sense?

- Packard

March 1, 2012 at 6:14pm

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I wouldn't say it makes sense, Packard, but noga and Jaime are more alike in this than not. She will chat amiably with ironyroad for months and then turn on him, first trying to tar him with Khalidi a few does ago, despite his adamant refusal to be drawn, and then accusing him of something or other I cannot even follow, then more attempts to tar with other posters (me? who remembers). Jaime also did make a trenchant remark the other day when he told noga something to the effect that she does not have an exclusive right to insult people. The lack of self-awareness is pretty astounding, and I would not venture to say which of the two is worse in that regard.

- roidubouloi

March 2, 2012 at 12:30am

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I'm curious: Why is it "tarring" with Khalidi? Do you roi consider Khalidi to be a tarring agent? As far as I know he has never done anything criminal or illegal or immoral. To me he is someone who works hard to undermine the legitimacy of Israel and noone would pay him more than usual attention except that he is known to be a good friend of your president whose policies towards Israel reflect an otherwise unexplanied, seemingly deeply-felt animus. Having sat at Rev. Wright's feet for twenty years and having been friends with Khalidi appear to me to be sufficient explanation for that kind of animus. As for ironyroad, we have had our fierce quarrels ever since we met on another message board years ago. We actually began our acquaintance with a quarrel. There is no attempt "to tar" ironyroad with Khalidi. I KNOW he doesn't share Khalidi's views. When I mention Khalidi to him, it is because I'm seeking an explanation as to why Obama could ever be a friend to such a person. Khalidi is also a friend of Abukhalil and Abunimah, who openly call for the destruction of Israel and turning Jewish Israelis out of their homes taking away any human right that they have achieved for themselves. Khalidi is also the protege of Edward Said who was a bit more humane in his awareness of the destruction he wanted to visit upon the state of Israel. He expressed "worry" about what would happen to the Jews in an Arab Palestinian state. One wonder what a would-be president of the US is doing being friends with a person whose mentor and friends devote their entire life to the idea that Jews are not entitled to self-determination or their own state. I'm wondering how Obama's friendship with Khalidi can be blamed on Netanyahu. Perhaps it's the other way around? Obama's animus towards Netanyahu is actually due to the sentiments he had been taught by Khalidi?

- noga1

March 2, 2012 at 8:21am

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That of course is why irony repeatedly had to admonish you to stop trying to associate him with Kalidi and his views, and the goes on to admonish you to stop trying to drape him with the views of other posters rather than his own as he expresses them. He must have been mistaken, not once but twice. I have never learned anything from Khalidi. Yet I consider Netanyahu a nightmare for both Israel and the US. Withal, while you worry about how the human rights of Israelis might or even would be abused if the Atabs had their way, you remain indifferent to the ways in which the human rights of Palestinian Arabs are in fact abused by Israel. Somehow we are expected to condone Israeli human rights abuses due to the spector of what Arabs would do if they had the power, which they do not and which they have no prospect of attaining. Curious relationship to reality. Abuse them today because they would if they had the chance. Do all your friends, assuming youndo have friends, necessarily endorse all your most extreme views by being friends with you, or do you choose them because they agree with your most extreme views?

- roidubouloi

March 2, 2012 at 9:06am

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"One wonders what a would-be president of the US is doing being friends with a person whose mentor and friends devote their entire life to the idea that Jews are not entitled to self-determination or their own state." Well, people don't know they are "would-be" presidents, rather as the characters in Downton Abbey are being anachronistic when they say "World War One has started." The people at the time didn't know it was WW1. I suspect from my memory of Khalidi on Charlie Rose Show interviews/discussions that he's the kind of articulate and intelligent person who would appeal to Obama, who I think from his own life experience was interested in people who combine identities and manage complicated demands. A smart Palestinian-American, teaches at wherever, knows the ironic postmodern moves -- a natural, in some ways. My guess is that Khalidi would never say something like "Jews aren't entitled to their own state" in normal conversation -- I don't recall him ever saying it on TV. He is good at setting out a certain intellectual frame (sort of a romantic postcolonial thing). I think it's pretty much fantasy to imagine that Khalidi advanced the proposition of the destruction of Israel to Obama back in Chicago in the 90s and Obama nodded enthusiastically. Obama is a pragmatist, however, and I speculate that he reconfigured his original attitude (whatever it was) based on new knowledge and/or new circumstances but doesn't like to be rushed. Netanyahu I believe made a bad misjudgment here. Israelis made the same mistake with Bush, incidentally, but the Pals managed to fuck it up as usual.

- ironyroad

March 2, 2012 at 10:54pm

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Everybody forgets that Israel of course is the primary target of an Iranian nuclear bomb. Yet if Israel succeeds in preventing Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons all of the Gulf kingdoms will breath a sigh of relief including Saudi Arabia. The irony of the situation today is that those Arab states support the nightmare of destroying Israel while secretly hoping that Israel relieved them already of their Iranian nightmare.

- Poupic

March 3, 2012 at 3:59am

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