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Go Home Damascus Calling

POLITICS FEBRUARY 8, 2012

Damascus Calling

BY LEON WIESELTIER

When the sordid Sergey Lavrov demanded to know “the endgame” of the Security Council’s attempt to interfere with Bashar Assad’s atrocities against his people, Hillary Clinton replied that “the endgame in the absence of us acting together as the international community, I fear, is civil war.” According to many press accounts, there is already a civil war in Syria. Lavrov later remarked about the Security Council resolution that he and his Chinese colleague had villainously gutted and then scuttled that it would have meant “taking sides in a civil war.” In Washington, “Syria experts” told The New York Times that the absence of unified international action at the United Nations might “provid[e] a recipe for all-out civil war,” and that the arming of the Syrian opposition “could lead to civil war.” It is important to note, in the light of all this, that there are things more dire than civil war—the massacre of a population by a government, for example. If a civil war is taking place in Syria, then a substantial part of the Syrian population is opposed to the Syrian regime, and Assad’s interpretation of the freedom movement as a terrorist conspiracy hatched by Syria’s enemies is exposed as a lie. And if a civil war is taking place in Syria, it is a sign of the moral and psychological soundness of the Syrian resistance, which has recognized that there are types of violence against which non-violence will avail nothing. Their peaceful demonstrations were met by wanton force, and it is proper that they should defend themselves and their better conception of their country. Civil wars are regular crucibles in the formation of nations, which sooner or later must decide how they wish to be governed and why. (Our civil war was the deferred war of our constitution.) Of course the civil war in Syria is also a tribal war, but the blame for the ethnic explosiveness of Syria rests with its dictator, who rules tribally. As for Lavrov’s warning about taking sides in a civil war, it is a vile hypocrisy. His government has already taken sides in this civil war, along with the government of Iran. Outside powers have already intervened in Syria, and on the side of the killers. It is only the civilians in the streets who are friendless.

 

THE ANXIETY ABOUT civil war is not the only fallacy that mars the discussion of what must be done in and for Syria. There is also the view that the failure at the Security Council was, as Clinton said, “tragic.” A sense of tragedy is not what is needed now. The indifference of Russia and China to human rights and the moral analysis of state policy is no surprise. We must be clear about what an international consensus establishes and what it does not. It was useful that the Security Council and the Arab League and certain Arab states endorsed military action against Qaddafi in Libya, but the justice of the Libyan operation was not proved by its popularity. The whole world may support something wrong. And even if the Western powers had chosen to go it alone in Libya, they would have been right. The Libyan precedent may have an unfortunate consequence for the consideration of intervention in moral emergencies, rather like the precedent of the first Gulf war: it confers upon “the international community” more authority than it deserves, and by creating an unrealistic expectation of broad unanimity about the extreme cruelties of certain regimes it makes action by limited coalitions and alliances, not to mention unilateral action by (perish the thought!) the United States, seem unlikely and even illegitimate. Yet it is one of the historical responsibilities of the United States to be, as Pat Moynihan used to say, “in opposition,” even if it is wise, on practical grounds, to act in concert rather than alone. In recent days President Obama has spoken ringingly about “the Syrian government’s unspeakable assault against the people of Homs,” and declared that Assad “has no right to lead Syria”; but the rhetorical escalation aside, the administration seems at a loss about what to do in the absence of the Security Council’s cover. “Look, don’t expect another Libya,” an American official dogmatically told the Times. Why not? Consistency in matters of first principles is not too much to ask. How can the president dine out on Libya if he is not prepared to do the same for Syria? Assad is perpetrating in Homs, Hama, Dara’a, and elsewhere what Qaddafi only threatened to perpetrate in Benghazi. Stability—tyranny’s only allure—is over. And the strategic prize is significant: the fall of Assad would damage Hezbollah and Hamas, and hobble the Iranian position in the region. In the case of Syria, our interests accord with our values. Lead again from behind!

 

JUST WHEN HE THOUGHT he was out they pull him back in. The Syrian crisis comes at an inconvenient time for Obama. He is presiding over a momentous transition in foreign policy and security policy. We are done with the wars, and with military interventions in places with Muslims and sand, and with ambitious counterinsurgency strategies (what Sustaining U.S. Global Leadership: Priorities for 21st Century Defense, the strategy document released by the administration a few weeks ago, calls “large-scale, prolonged stability operations”), and we will rely on dazzling drones and stirring SEALS to rid ourselves of persons who imperil us. We are leaving the Middle East (except for Israel and the Iranian nuclear nightmare) and Central Asia for Asia-Pacific: Af-Pak is out, As-Pac is in. I am overstating it, but not altogether. There is much to be said for and against these various changes in plans and doctrines, and if Obama’s eastward turn denotes a more sober apprehension of China as a nasty power and a global rival, it will be for the good; but a fierce American response to Assad’s savagery is certainly not in the spirit of what the new security document calls “small-footprint approaches.” An American official remarked that “there is a growing danger that if the slaughter which Assad has been engaging in continues, others might step forward to aid the opposition.” That is the danger? We should be those others. We should aid and arm the Free Syrian Army, perhaps with the Saudis and the Qataris and Obama’s regional idol Erdogan, and offer protection to the parts of the country that they control. We should immiserate the Assad regime economically and banish it to a North Korean purgatory diplomatically. Like the army proposed by the Pentagon, we must be “agile, flexible and ready for the full range of contingencies.”

Leon Wieseltier is the literary editor of The New Republic. This article appeared in the March 1, 2012 issue of the magazine. 

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201 comments

Leon has GREAT comments, about the ongoing conflict, in Syria. It's also, true that a CIVIL war is ongoing, as dissidents-from a certain regime, continue to put their lives, forward. I think it's also, true, that even Russia will pull-away from the Assad regime, if the Russian conscience will go THAT far. ... Am also, SURE, more ... that most of the civilized WORLD will support the uprisings, in Syria, as Assad tries to ascertain the support of his military, and his hold on power.

- JohnBorder

February 8, 2012 at 3:42am

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What a time-saver it would be if TNR just provided a list of Arab countries that do not require a U.S. intervention. [Read: invasion, followed by regime change, followed by 15 years of nation-building until a government acceptable to Israel emerges.] Could probably knock out that article in two minutes, tops.

- DC Spence

February 8, 2012 at 6:58am

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DC Spence "What a time-saver it would be if TNR just provided a list of Arab countries that do not require a U.S. intervention." It would be more of a time saver if Spence just posted his predictable posts somewhere else. W. didn't call for "an invasion," but don't let a minor detail stand in the way of a rant.

- arnon

February 8, 2012 at 7:02am

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Arnon, they never call for an invasion right off the bat. First we must do a little. When that predictably doesn't topple the regime, the rest of it follows naturally. And just over 3+ lines of text qualifies as a rant? What an odd creature you are.

- DC Spence

February 8, 2012 at 7:29am

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"It is important to note, in the light of all this, that there are things more dire than civil war—the massacre of a population by a government, for example." A "government" cannot massacre anybody; only people kill people, in this case, Syrian killing Syrian. Here, LW justifies intervention in the Syrian civil war because the "government has already taken sides". Yes, one Syrian side against another Syrian side. LW distinguishes the Syrian civil war as conflict between tribes, not conflict between Syrians. If one accepts LW's premise, then the conflict will not end until a "New Syria" is established, a Syria with but one tribe, for as long as there are at least two tribes within "Syria", the conflict will not end. If national borders are meaningless in international relations, then intervention knows no bounds, in Syria, in Korea, in Iran, and, yes, in America. LW makes the humanitarian argument, for which I have much sympathy, but does so without regard to the logical consequences, confident is he that this intervention is different (on both moral and sectarian grounds) from others that may arise in the future which don't fit within his ideas of what is humanitarian. If only he could guarantee that everybody has the same humanitarian ideas as he does. That he cannot do.

- rayward

February 8, 2012 at 7:33am

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Arnon - respectfully, it does seem that Mr Wieseltier is calling for the US to consider and prep for unilateral action, at least in a most passive-aggressive way. I'm curious to hear your take on what should be done, given your ME expertise (and any implied sarcasm in that should be dismissed, my comment is genuine.) Yes, the Syrian massacres are tragic, heartrending. Yes, Assad is a monster and he should be killed. But in terms of military action (I'm responding here to Leon's "perish the thought" implication that we should seriously consider such an option), what would you have the US do? We can attack with poinpoint accuracy any target we want from the air, unopposed by anything the Syrians would dare launch, American armor and close air support can squash anything they have on the ground, and my old friends in the 101st airborne et al can take the cities. And then what? Anybody here remember Fallujah? I certainly do. And in remembering it all too well, I do not rush to send others into a repeat performance. For those who advocate American military power being brought to bear against the Assad government, how many American lives are you willing to throw away with what follows? How many years should we be willing to spend on creating a new Iraq or Afghanistan, where - at best - we will eventually be leaving, fingers crossed that the new government doesn't turn out to be as bad or worse than the old. "Syria—with its sectarian hatreds, its ethnic animosities, its historical pretensions, its territorial ambitions, its political conceits, its economic endearments—may presently be ruled by the Assads. But, were the Sunnis empowered in Damascus instead of the Alawite “pretenders,” nothing less cruel would define the exercise of power or the map of financial favor. They would just be different." Courtesy of TNR's own Marty Peretz, who (though I disagree with most of what he contributes these days) describes flawlessly why the US in in no position to send in troops for another ill conceived regime change. For God's sake, replace "Syria" and "Damascus" with "Iraq" and "Baghdad" and you have a great opening paragraph for an open letter to the Bush Administration circa February 2003. In terms of military action, I would think Israel would be a more appropriate initiator. They can certainly make the case that Substantial civil unrest is a threat to their border, not to mention if they intervene and create a safe zone for the rebels they could, conceivably, deliver quite the body blow to the last 70 years of animosity towards all things Zionist. "We came to the defense of our Arab neighbors when no one else would" has a nice ring to it. Anyway, perhaps I'm going over the top with my immediate response to the article as one of wanting to back away rapidly from any notion of unilateral US military action, but I've seen too much of that going horribly awry to find anything favorable about the idea, no matter how monstrous the tragedy we're seeing unfold at the hands of the Assad regime. There are those on here, I know, who will argue for some sort of US protective action - a no-fly zone with an open ended committment to adding close air support against Syrian armor and mechanized infantry, for example. Perhaps. But consider what happens if/when we undertake such a mission and a few US planes get shot down. Or the no-fly zone is ineffective in hindering Syrian army infantry from continuing their slaughter. When we have established a military presence in any form whatsoever, we have said to the world that the cause of the Syrian rebels is worth trading American blood and treasure, so how can we therefore back down? I'm grateful things went so smoothly in Libya, but the detractors are correct... this is not Libya. A no fly zone is not going to keep Assad and his forces from storming or shelling the next field hospital, or the next school sheltering families of the rebels. That will take ground troops, several divisions of them. And that will cost enormous amounts of blood from whatever nation chooses to undertake such an enterprise.

- Tristan

February 8, 2012 at 9:06am

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I was going to post the same thing as DC Spence. I doubt if any eloquent prose would be printed in favour or war by TNR if Syria bordered Mongolia. Almost makes you wish for a unified greater Israel to happen ASAP. At least then, we wouldn't have to bear the, at this point repetitive, propaganda anymore.

- IggyPop

February 8, 2012 at 9:17am

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"As for Lavrov’s warning about taking sides in a civil war, it is a vile hypocrisy." I of course defer to Wieseltier's expertise on hypocrisy. Some people might think that the seminal example of recent great power hypocrisy in the Middle East has been the US's complete abandonment of the people of Bahrain to the tender mercies of its minority government and the Saudi tanks that helped put down the demands for parliamentary democracy there, but what do they know? That Bahrain never registered on Wieseltier's finely calibrated moral-outrage-o-meter, tells me it must have no significance whatsoever. Yet perhaps Wieseltier DOES cover the issue of Bahrain indirectly when he says, "And the strategic prize [in Syria] is significant: the fall of Assad would damage Hezbollah and Hamas, and hobble the Iranian position in the region. In the case of Syria, our interests accord with our values." Ah, I see, that's what differentiates Bahrain from Syria--"our interests." So, one infers, for Wieseltier, "our values" are subject to the dictates of "our interests." Well, I suppose that would explain our support for King Hamad, Mubarak, the Shah, et al. Based on those examples and others, one has to wonder whether the real conflict is actually between a blinkered, short-term and a more far-sighted, long-term understanding of "our interests." In any case, I look forward to Wieseltier's strong sense of commitment to the people of Syria impelling him to form a new Lincoln Brigade and march to the sound of the guns. I'm sure his account, "Homage to US Strategic Interests," will be a moral example for generations to come. And, for those inclined to look a bit ahead, here is Wieseltier's hint about upcoming attractions: "...if Obama’s eastward turn denotes a more sober apprehension of China as a nasty power and a global rival, it will be for the good." Hail, Oceania! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKD0qm_vr2s

- ccarrick@vzavenue.net-old

February 8, 2012 at 9:29am

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well stated Tristan. not sure why Leon W thinks there is ANY role for the USA in Syria. Why does Wilsonian humanitarianism have any shelf-life in 2012? I am enjoying the post-Libya quandary now facing the punditocracy of when to invoke that UN doctrine "Responsibility to Protect". If Syria is having a civil war, let the Turks and Saudis decide if a Sunni Arc to contain the Shi'a Arc is in anyone's interest. I admit to wanting containment of Iran's Shi'a Arc and the prospect of Hezbollah losing legitimacy, whilst being equally disturbed by what will happen to Syria's Christians, and Circassians (all those minorities allied with the Alawites) if the opposition Sunnis do prevail. Syria's Kurds and Druse certainly have no 'protective alliance' with either side. The Druse on the Golan Heights may finally decide to take the plunge and accept Israel's offer of citizenship since the annexation. They have been fence-sitting all this time out of fear of an Assad massacre/reprisal. Guess someone should be Jumblatt-watching...

- K2K

February 8, 2012 at 10:18am

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I imagine the furious comments attacking Obama for intervening in Syria and thus endangering Israel with his ignorant, Brezhinsky-influenced, Palestinian-inclined, Netanyahu-disrespecting clumsiness are already in various people's computer files marked 'Future TNR posts.' You know, always be prepared.

- ironyroad

February 8, 2012 at 11:10am

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i am with Tristan on this and I supported action in Libya. Nowhere does Leon lay out the tactics and strategy necessary to support the rebels. How are we to get arms into Homs? How, precisely, are we to identify the "good" rebels and the bad Syrian soldiers (I put good in quotes because just because they are fighting against Assad doesn't mean that all of them are Liberal reformers, not that I am against bad rebels and bad syrians killing each other, just what happens later with those weapons) The Libyan civil war had 2 clearly defined sides, the East of the rebels and Benghazi and the West of Tripoli and Gadhafi. It was pretty easy to identify and target Gadhafi armoured columns moving on Benghazi and to wipe them out. Syria is not Libya. So I am with Tristan, let Israel (and Turkey) create some safe zones, let the Israelis and Turks arm and train the rebels and then let them fight their own war.

- blackton

February 8, 2012 at 11:19am

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for intervening in Syria and thus endangering Israel Could you explain that one? Getting rid of Assad, depending on what emerges in his place, could result in ending Iranian influence in the Levant and an end to the flow of Iranian arms to Hamas and Hezbollah. That would be a great boon to Israel. There is some risk, but the potential payoff is vast.

- sighthnd

February 8, 2012 at 11:23am

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How, precisely, are we to identify the "good" rebels and the bad Syrian soldiers A fair question. However, should the lack of answers now mean that we should just wipe our hand and say that we can't do anything rather task a group of people who know the region with finding a viable answer, with the possibility that an inability might force abandoning any plans for action?

- sighthnd

February 8, 2012 at 11:28am

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@Xenophon: The fact of the matter is that yes, we live in a world with a bunch of different countries that have their own personal interests at heart. No country does anything that won't at least benefit itself indirectly. Realpolitik baby. In a perfect world, the U.S. would intervene in every autocratic state to prevent the abuse of different groups of people and bloodshed. But as others on this thread have said, 1) even the U.S. doesn't have that kind of military might, and 2) political and economic concerns must always be taken into account. Nonetheless, if we have to weigh the moral value of A) helping to prevent further massacres in Syria to B) letting the onslaught continue, A is the more moral thing to do, regardless of whether the U.S. would also intervene in Bahrain. Syria has a much greater geopolitical importance as well. Thus, I see nothing inherently wrong with the U.S. picking and choosing its battles by weighing both its own political interests and the overall moral imperative. Would I like if the U.S. would also take a stronger stance against other autocratic states? Of course. But I'll take what I can get here.

- andyman344

February 8, 2012 at 11:35am

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sightnd: But that's just it. You're not one of the dippy, everything-Obama-does-is-wrong reactionaries. Putting aside my above post for a second and assuming US intervention is best for Israel, those various people Irony cites will attack Obama for fiddling while Damascus burns. If Obama attacks, those very same people - not the same general groups of people mind you but THE SAME INDIVIDUALS - will accuse Obama of endandering Israel and creating a more unstable Middle East. Don't believe me? Check out Newt's delightful responses to Obama's actions in Libya. Anyway, I agree that Assad needs to go, but the "depending on what emerges in his place" thing is kind of a big deal. I suppose the hero in The Lady or the Tiger story was thinking the same thing. "You know, when that door opens, it could be a really good thing, depending what's on the other side." The new government in Damascus could be beautiful. Or it could be a ravenous monster. Nobody knows which.

- Tristan

February 8, 2012 at 11:35am

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sightnd has got it right on the question of how to identify "good" rebels. However, one could definitely identify Assad's military. They are the ones who for 14 hours every day are sending tanks to circle and shell the "rebel" cities, along with sending snipers in to shoot people walking through the streets. The main issue is how to support the "rebel" groups, which are not exactly a unified organization at this point and are basically just a bunch of people holding on for dear life not to be blown to shreds. The U.S. tactic of trying to use political and economic pressure to stop Assad's attacks is a good start. Until the rebellion gains a more unified structure, the U.S. doesn't exactly have an entity to support militarily. I am all for humanitarian aid to these cities that are being blockaded though. It would be a great strategic gesture and might help reveal more details of what is happening there.

- andyman344

February 8, 2012 at 11:42am

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sighthnd, I didn't say wash our hands of it all. I advocate Israel (and Turkey) setting up safe havens to arm and train rebels to fight the regime. They have borders there, how the hell are we to do such a thing? Shall we re-invade Iraq to get to Syria? andyman, why the hell can't Israel use its own airforce to take out Syrian tanks? How do you propose the US airforce do it? Even with the combined might of most of NATO it still took 6 months to wear down Gadhafi's forces enough for the rebels to win, and that was with the rebels having a massive safe haven in the East, and strong positions in Misrata (a coastal city supplied by the sea) and the Nafusa Mountains (with supply lines from Tunisia) Can someone lay out the strategies and tactics to win that war in Syria with an absolute minimum of civilian bloodshed? People pretend it is simply a matter of will, that hey, what can go wrong, as though Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc. are not abject lessons in how to eff up even with the best intentions. To be clear, I am a Liberal interventionist, but for heaven's sake, you intervene when the chances of success are overwhelming and the downsides are at a minimum. You don't roll the dice with American lives. In Libya, that was so. In the first Gulf war, that was true as well.

- blackton

February 8, 2012 at 11:58am

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Obama has stated no USA intervention in Syria for the moment. However the Pentagon is preparing plans for military action in Syria. We should not intervene militarily. Let them settle at the Arab Russia expertise. Assad is killing mainly members of the Muslim Brotherhood 7,000 thus far . His father killed 50,000 in the early 1980's, and nobody brought him to account. The proposal that Israel should do it is the example I have seen in your blogs that demonstrate you are no friend of Israel.., Tristan. In the past I called you a paid Iranian blogger. I was wrong you are a Muslim lover blogger and no friend of israel. And with your cynicism and hypocrisy you are the most arrogant blogger on this site. I restrain myself in not using arnon's Turret's vocabulary, obscene and derogatory . And to use you attitude Tristan, I Send you this message with true sentiment.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 12:29pm

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"Look, don’t expect another Libya,” an American official dogmatically told the Times. Why not? Consistency in matters of first principles is not too much to ask. How can the president dine out on Libya if he is not prepared to do the same for Syria?" Leon CAN'T be so dense as to require us to point out why you can't expect another Libya here, can you? Because we engaged in a full-scale military intervention in Libya, albeit under the auspices of NATO and without combat troops on the ground, but with American and allied cruise missiles, jets, drones and special forces arming and supporting the Libyan rebels against the Qadaffi government. The reason that might not be possible or advisable in Syria is because the Chinese and Russians effectively green-lighted the Libya mission and sat out as Qadaffi was defeated, despite their misgivings over the outcome. They vowed not to do that again, and are not allowing a similar intervention in Syria. The US can always collect a "coalition of the willing" to replicate the Libyan intervention in Syria, but that will be actively opposed by Russia and China -- and the practical effects of the opposition would consist of, among other things from Russia, stepped-up sales of military equipment to Assad's government, a refusal to further cooperate with international action against Iran's nuclear program (or, worse, active assistance) and a strengthening of an alliance between Russia and Iran, refusal to negotiate further nuclear non-proliferation deals with the US and active attempts to sabotage implementation of the new START Treaty, more interference in the affairs of ex-Soviet states, refusal to cooperate with the resupply of the NATO/US mission in Afghanistan and perhaps even attempts to exploit the US spat with Egypt to increase Russian or Chinese ties with the Egyptians and interfere in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process on the Arabs' behalf. From China, it could lead to active attempts to get Pakistan to sabotage America's efforts in Afghanistan, no help in dealing with North Korea and less interest in playing nice on trade, currency and IP issues. Is that enough broken eggs from somebody's firmly held desire to make a heroic omlet out of Syria? Leon seems to come to his senses at the end of the article by suggesting that the US get regional actors, like Turkey or Arab states, to actively assist the Free Syrian Army and the Syrian opposition and otherwise keep pressuring Assad's regime economically and diplomatically (which we are already doing quite well, thank you). Let's hope that his senses stay there, unlike the wandering senses and mind of his former boss and friend Marty.

- wildboy

February 8, 2012 at 12:37pm

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Tristan there you go again. Using the old canard that the USA sacrifices for Israel, similar to the old canard you used in the past about the 3 billion USA aid to Israel. Read your second posting. And is as bad as your first. You are a Muslim lover no friend of Israel. Hypocrite and arrogant. And to me despicable. Yours truly JaimeChuch.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 12:38pm

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Tristan. I notice you don't answer my blogs. That is fine. As long as people realize you don't criticize Muslim atrocities believing you are hiding the truth. But your insulting behavior criticizing Israel is completely unacceptable. Your arrogant hypocrisy is really disgusting. With true sentiments. Jaime Chuchi .

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 12:46pm

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The stupidest poster on TNR has decided I'm no longer a paid Iranian blogger and instead I am a Muslim-lover blogger. I don't know what that means, but I'm guessing my dating life is about to change drastically. Jaime, I've tried to be nice to you but I give up. What my esteemed peers on this site say about you are correct... you prove yourself, time and again, to have no functioning higher reasoning skills; you have the manners of a goat; your literary skills are surpassed in their hilarious stupidity only by your complete absence of any reading skills; and you're willing to twist, fold, bang, mold, and pretzel anyone comments into what you and you alone may interpret as offensive to Israel. Like quite a few others on here I imagine, I spent a bit of time on a debate club. What you learn very quickly enaging in competitive team debates... as, is the case in sports, I would add... is that facing a highly skilled opponent is a far more difficult challenge to overcome than having a moron on your own team. To wit: Israelis and Jews in general have suffered and continue to face many challenges. But having idiots like you on their side, Jaime, only makes the task for them harder. Granted, no one take you seriously, so I imagine the damage you do is infinitesimally small, but there it is.

- Tristan

February 8, 2012 at 12:56pm

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jaimechuch, what the hell are you babbling about? How is giving a green light to Israel to do what is in its best interest (perhaps, but that is really their call) to set up a safe haven to train and arm Syrian rebels proof that Tristan hates Israel? Utterly bizarre. In Libya the US utilized its allies France, Britain, Italy, etc. but God forbid we ever ask Israel to step up. If Israel is fine with Assad, then the US has pretty much no options as we have no direct access to Syria to arm and train the rebels (I also favor Turkey doing the same) I see nothing objectionable in Tristan's posts. I disagree with him from time to time. I supported action in Libya, he did not, but I don't see that makes him an arrogant hypocrite.

- blackton

February 8, 2012 at 12:59pm

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DC Spence “Arnon, they never call for an invasion right off the bat. First we must do a little. When that predictably doesn't topple the regime, the rest of it follows naturally. And just over 3+ lines of text qualifies as a rant? What an odd creature you are.” Spence a rant isn’t defined by the number of lines, but by the tone of the message. Your hysterical tone makes what you say a RANT. Then your smart categorical comment: “…they never call for an invasion right off the bat. First we must do a little. When that predictably doesn't topple the regime,…” Is meant to stifle debate on the issue.

- arnon

February 8, 2012 at 1:21pm

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Israel isn't going to get involved directly because it's the one event that would solidify support of the Assad regime. The Arabs and especially the Islamists hate Israel/Jews more than they hate Assad. The idea of the US supporting a Turkey-Saudi cum other Arab governments to help the opposition in Syria makes some sense.

- arnon

February 8, 2012 at 1:26pm

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Let's also remember that LW is writing as a moralist (which isn't a bad thing) and his aim seems to be to stir up debate and not offer a specific set of recommendations on how to achieve his aim of stopping the killings in that country. Any one who has read the Ajami review of a novel that deals with the Assad repressive regime http://www.tnr.com/article/world/magazine/100436/syria-aleppo-khaled-khalifa-praise-hatred and doesn't see that something needs to be done is no anyone that needs to be taken seriously. They are probably Ron Paul or Lyndon LaRouche supporters anyway.

- arnon

February 8, 2012 at 1:32pm

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Not only is there nothing wrong with what Tristan said his cautionary note is welcome: "Anyway, I agree that Assad needs to go, but the "depending on what emerges in his place" thing is kind of a big deal." Acting in haste can be as bad as doing nothing.

- arnon

February 8, 2012 at 1:35pm

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Blackton you are an ignorant stupid. Israel's concern is Iran. Syria is a concern for USA interests in the Middle East. Very low priority to Israel. Do your homework and learn there is the Rubin reports, there is Israeli newspapers in English Haaretz, Jerusalem Post, Y Net. Don't be the camel's ass. Now I apologize to be using arnon's Turret syndrome of insulting and denigrating.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 1:38pm

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@Arnon: I'm not sure about that. You may be correct, but game this out... let's say Israel sends a few battalions to the outer edge of the Golan, and then declares the Heights to be a protected zone for Syrian refugees. They back this up with actual protection... Syrian army units dumb enough to approach Israeli lines in pursuit of rebels are squished like grapes. Assad makes all kinds of bluster about Israel attacking it's sovereign blah blah blah but even he isn't crazy enough to back up his rhetoric against an actual coordinated attack on Israeli forces. In the meantime, the tide of refugees grows and.... Israel accepts them with open arms. And food. And medicine. And then, quietly, Israel (and maybe a few guys from US Army Special Forces) begin organizing, arming, and training Syrian resistence leaders. And accounce that because of Assad's continuing aggression and to protect the refugees they have sworn to defend with Israeli lives, the zone of protection will need to be expanded further into Syrian territory. Meanwhile, the US floats 2 or 3 carrier battle groups into the eastern med. Nothing like a couple Nimitz-class carriers and their complements to keep heads cool among some other interested parties in the region. Again, you may be right that they hate the Israelis/Jews more than they hate Assad. But I've seen refugee camps before, and in my experience civilians fleeing slaughter and rebels seeking help in their struggle are open to just about anyone with an offer of aide. I don't events playing out like the above to be THAT farfetched. That said, your suggestion that should force be brought to bear, that the US would act through Turkey (a no fly zone out of Incirlik, for starters) is certainly more likely I would say than Israel acting militarily.

- Tristan

February 8, 2012 at 1:42pm

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Arnon, you're being too kind to a man of Wieseltier's intelligence by simply excusing his incoherent statements on intervention in Syria as those of a "moralist". If he was writing simply as a moralist, like Ajami in the book review or even as Marty in his Spenglerian ramblings, he could simply point out that the Assad regime is evil and that Americans must do something to help or to raise awareness of the evil and shame its foreign abettors. Once he starts offering specific suggestions on military and diplomatic strategy, he ceases to be soley a moralist and starts to become a garden-variety policy pundit, like Thomas Friedman or Charles Krauthammer. One doesn't have to be a Ron Paul or Lyndon LaRouche supporter to find fault with policy pundits, and if Leon wants to be one then he should be criticized when he doesn't make sense or doesn't think too hard about his policy prescriptions.

- wildboy

February 8, 2012 at 1:42pm

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arnon, are you saying Israel has no way to supply arms via the Christians in Lebanon to the Syrians? And by the way, I don't buy that the people who are getting killed by Assad would suddenly support him if Israel launched a surgical strike to take him out, or created a safe haven in the south. Anyway, this is Israel's call. I am not saying what they should do, just that given a choice between US direct involvement and Israel direct involvement I think strategically Israel is in a far better to prevail and do so quickly. Anyway, the sanction and an oil boycott is slowly ruining Assad, if it will be enough to finish him off I have no idea.

- blackton

February 8, 2012 at 1:44pm

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I always thought Turret syndrome was something that afflicted soldiers who spent too much time inside a tank.

- wildboy

February 8, 2012 at 1:44pm

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Andyman, Yes, I agree, it’s an imperfect world. But I’m not sure I understand all your points. When you say that, “political and economic concerns must always be taken into account,” does that include the right of the Russians and Chinese to take THEIR concerns into account, too? Or are US “concerns” the only ones meriting moral compromise? I can’t tell whether you agree with me that Wieseltier’s moralistic bleating about Russian depravity is laughable or not. “Nonetheless, if we have to weigh the moral value of A) helping to prevent further massacres in Syria to B) letting the onslaught continue, A is the more moral thing to do, regardless of whether the U.S. would also intervene in Bahrain.” Of course, the problem with this logic is that is ultimately becomes nothing more than self-serving “realpolitik, baby” with only the slightest moral patina. But in any case, why is it not more moral to let the Syrians settle the matter themselves, bloodshed and all? Assad is a less strong leader than his father, and whatever might succeed him peacefully will be less legitimate still. The ideological underpinning of Alawite rule and identity is weakening over time. Mubarak fell with no help from us at all (though we hurriedly jumped on the “democracy” bandwagon as he tottered at the end.) As the Assad regime weakens, there will be opportunities for countries that can help facilitate a transition--I’m thinking of Turkey and Iran or Iraq and perhaps others--to provide constructive assistance that may be able to promote a more peaceful, but, in any case, Syrian resolution. As with Cuba and Iran, the sanctions and threats of imminent intervention only create more of a zero-sum mentality inside Syria and thereby contribute to the bloodshed. And what will happen if Assad is pushed out? Ultimately, whoever or whatever replaces him will face the same economically unsustainable foundation, but in a state of utter chaos. Where will the US and the “international community” be once the geopolitical imperative of removing Assad is completed? Answer: On to our next “intervention” while Syria, now “liberated” and no longer a “threat” is left to wallow in its anarchic misery. Did England become a “democracy” through foreign intervention? No, the Petition of Right, the Grand Remonstrance, the Civil War (with its ethno-sectarian bloodshed), the Glorious Revolution, Bill of Rights, emergence of Parliament, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Reform Bills, etc, etc, etc took place gradually over time. The absence of foreign intervention meant that England has come to see itself as “owning” the historical process--with all its ugliness-- rather than it having been foisted on it. This has contributed to the stability and endurance of democracy in the UK. But, no, we need to “impose” democracy, because “we see farther, etc” than anyone else. Our crocodile tears for the Syrians are repulsive. Bottom line: In no way do I think an immediate US-sponsored removal of Assad is a significant interest--or any interest at all--of the US. Nor do I think it will provide Syrians as a whole a better life. “In a perfect world, the U.S. would intervene in every autocratic state...” Wow, your perfect world sure is different from mine.

- ccarrick@vzavenue.net-old

February 8, 2012 at 1:49pm

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@Blackton - I bet you're surprised to hear that Syria is considered a low-priority for Israel. I certainly was. Netanyahu: "Ok, we've covered the upcoming trip by the US Vice President, medicinal aid to Haiti, the upcoming Chabbad Lubovitch bake sale.... anything else?" Avigdor Lieberman: "Well let's see... (shuffling papers)... oh yeah, there's... how do you pronounces this? Is it SEE-ree-ah, or sir-EE-ah?" "Tzipi Livni: "I think it's SEE-ree-ah. There's where again? East-ish from us? (giggles) Sorry, been awhile since I took geography!" Netanyahu: "Northeast I think. You know what, it's lunch. Can we talk about this next week, maybe?"

- Tristan

February 8, 2012 at 1:51pm

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The coward anti Israel denier of Muslim atrocities Tristan, is being defended by his friends blackton and arnon. Tristan the arrogant hypocritical should change his name to Triston so we will have the there stooges blackston, arnon, Triston. Sorry Tristan I put you third to insult your arrogance. arnon, if you can not read what Tristan is saying I am sorry for you. He is saying that USA has been killing to defend Israel, which is a lie of the anti-Israel crowd. That in the case of Syria Israel should do the dirty work. Such an anti-Israel bigotry I seldom heard. Tristan is a denier of Muslim violence and hatred, he hides his true hatred and once in a while comes out of the closet. Always attacks Martin Peretz, because MP loves Israel. Because MP gives honest reporting about Muslim atrocities , intransigence, corruption, killings of their own people. Tristan can not hide in the closet anymore with his hypocritical arrogance. You see Tristan we can not be friends because you are a dishonest anti-Israel bigot. And I am for Israel and antagonistic to Muslim hatred, violence, self killings that you hide in you closeted mind. Very truly yours JaimeChuch.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 1:54pm

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@Blackton/Arnon - If we're going to be the three stooges, I call dibs on being the fat bald dude.

- Tristan

February 8, 2012 at 1:59pm

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Except for this--They are probably Ron Paul or Lyndon LaRouche supporters anyway... I'm with Arnon on this one and I agree with his better reading of Wieseltier than others': Wieseltier need not present Obama with his Syrian Military Assistance Plan; and as he notes Wieseltier is not calling for interference ("read invasion" as someone said). Wieseltier says, concluding: ...We should aid and arm the Free Syrian Army, perhaps with the Saudis and the Qataris and Obama’s regional idol Erdogan, and offer protection to the parts of the country that they control. We should immiserate the Assad regime economically and banish it to a North Korean purgatory diplomatically. Like the army proposed by the Pentagon, we must be “agile, flexible and ready for the full range of contingencies.”... I read that as a call to limited supportive measures ideally in alliance with others to get at the ongoing tragedy and slaughter there occurring. Finally this call by Wieseltier has nothing directly to do with Israel and I don't like the insinuations otherwise.

- basman

February 8, 2012 at 1:59pm

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"We should aid and arm the Free Syrian Army" I'm not opposed to that in principle. In practice however, things get a bit dicey. You see, you really can't "arm" anybody without sending in troops. Any idiot can fire the ubiquitous AK47, and just about everyone has one. It takes a little training to learn to hit anything smaller than a barn from a reasonable distance, though. Same with low-tech grenade launchers. Things get considerably more complicated when you're talking about arming rebels with things that can take out mechanized infantry and armor. You can't just parachute in those things and expect them to be able to use them. Ditto sophisticated communications equipment and basic battlefield medical supplies, the absence of which cause any chance whatsoever of rebel victory to drop precipitously. But even that's the easy part. That's TECHNICAL knowledge. For the weapons and equipment to have any real use, the rebels will need TACTICAL knowledge as well. You don't just fire at a tank, you learn which tank to fire and and when. You don't just shoot at some passing Syrian army soldiers, you learn how to best lay an ambush, you pick your terrain, you learn how to discipline your men to wait until the convey is half past your position and you're facing the middle of their formation, and then....boom. "Giving them weapons" is sending in troops, albeit a fraction of what it would take to conduct ful scale urban warfare. Whether the "troops" that would train the rebels to use these US arms would looks like the troops you see on tv, or would be indistinguishable from local civilians... well, that's another story.

- Tristan

February 8, 2012 at 2:12pm

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Tristan. Ahmadenijad is being questioned by the Iranian Congres about his Economics mishandlings. Egyptians are to prosecute Americans that have worked for freedom inegypt. Iraq keeps blowing each other as Muslims do. Syria helped Iran to plant 50,000 missiles in Hizbullah/Lebanon and 10,000 missiles in Hamas/Gaza. All planted among civilians. Hizbullah leader says he dent care Iran says. He is independent. Hamas leader is moving away from Damascus. Trying to find a new home Turkey rejected their request. Maybe again Jordan. Never Gaza where he really belongs, but he is scared. Hamas and Fatah/Abbas are almost there in a unity government. Almost,almost,almost. Obama says Assad has to go it is just a matter of time. Russia and China veto UN resolution to condemn Syria for killing opposition members of Muslim brotherhood. Obama says no military intervention by USA in Syria , for the time being. Pentagon indicates preparation to intervene in Syria is underway. Where has been Tristan in all of these. However he reports exclusively on Israel developments. You see Tristan hides any Muslim true negative actions. But assaults Israel and Martin Peretz. Good I uncovered Tristan, in spite of his hypocritical arrogance. Very truly your ex-friend Tristan.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 2:12pm

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No Tristan in the three stooges your personality is the one that hits the others. Do not deny your pernicious arrogance.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 2:15pm

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No Tristan in the three stooges your personality is the one that hits the others. Do not deny your pernicious arrogance.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 2:15pm

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Pernicious is a pretty sophisticated word for you, Jaime. Your case worker, did she help you with that one? And I already called dibs on being Curly, so too damn bad.

- Tristan

February 8, 2012 at 2:21pm

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From the rantings of Jaime: "Iraq keeps blowing each other as Muslims do." You know, I would ask TNR to remove this crazy idiot, but he's so unintentionally hilarious I just can't bring myself to make the request.

- Tristan

February 8, 2012 at 2:30pm

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02/08/2012 - 2:12pm EDT | Tristan Truth to tell I am under equipped to discuss the logistics of aiding and arming the Free Syrian Army. But the question your comments raise to my mind is whether meaningful support of a tailored nature of necessity involves America biting off more than it can chew in wanting, if it wanted, to lend some support in the humanitarian interest in trying to avoid further tragic slaughter and help bring about the end of Assad's murderous regime and further tthe interests of freedom for Syrians or whether all the talk about logistical and other difficulties is trees occluding a moral forest?

- basman

February 8, 2012 at 2:36pm

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Tristan you are an arrogant hypocrite enemy of Israel. You were saved by a Muslim as you described it and you are a denier defender of Muslim atrocities. You are not only arrogant, but you are stupid enough you can get away with it. Now you are being charitable by being "nice" to Me. Oh no you have given up. You are mistaken that with your affabilities you contol this site. Anyhow you are an anti-Israel bigot. Hiding Muslim atrocities , by never mentioning. And as blogging sites go , you will not get away with small mindedness. Proposing that Israel should attack Syria instead of the USA, is the most ignorant biased statement I heard. Be brave be honest your Muslim love and Israel hatred has to be admitted by your persona. Otherwise will reaffirm you are an hypocrite no gooder. I am trying to avoid arnon Turrets syndrome and not use obscenities that you deserve for being an anti-Israel bigot. Tristan my ex friend ( no remorse). Be a mensch (a human being).and have the guts to be honest. But can an arrogant dishonest liar change? I doubt it. Tristan is at the end a triston. In Spanish means a sad one. Indeed.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 2:36pm

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Tristan You are using Turrets insults. It really hurts you that Muslims blow each other and you consider that a lie. At the end I feel sorry for you. Aren't Iraqis blowing each other, they are are Muslims aren't they? Syrian atrocities against their own people Pakistanis killing each other. Is the law of the jungle Muslim law. If you had the strength to condemn the Muslim fanatics that do these atrocities, maybe maybe would help the majority of good Muslims to stop carnages. I say your anti-Israel behavior is wrong. Tristan (ex friend) you are welcome to laugh at my postings. You arrogant human being.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 2:48pm

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Basman, I greatly admire Weiseltier's moral compass and his passionate commitment to human rights, but WADR this article is another one of his muddled forays into geostrategy. Yes, he ends the article on the sage note that the US could and should support the Free Syrian Army indirectly through its allies and by increasing economic pressure on the Assad government -- though he should have mentioned that we ALREADY have brought about as much economic pressure on Assad as we could under the circumstances, short of levying general sanctions on countries or companies that support his regime, which is something we don't currently do with North Korea, But before this sage conclusion, Weiseltier says criticizes the Admin for saying, “Look, don’t expect another Libya,” because "consistency in matters of first principles is not too much to ask. How can the president dine out on Libya if he is not prepared to do the same for Syria?" So Leon is being inconsistent in his prescriptions and obtuse in not acknowledging the obvious differences between the Libyan and Syrian situations. His level of analysis drops down to the illogical depths usually populated by Jackson Diehl or Bret Stephens. Bottom line is that Leon makes the most sense when he acts as a moral conscience and least sense when he acts as a pundit. I think he needs to stick to what he does best. And you don't have to be a know-nothing anti-Semitic troglodyte like Paul or LaRouche to think that.

- wildboy

February 8, 2012 at 2:48pm

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@basman: I agree the slaughter creates a moral requirement for action. I just don't know what precise actions and by whom is the right answer. Now excuse me, Jaime has announced we're no longer friends, so I'm going to go have a nice long cry.

- Tristan

February 8, 2012 at 2:57pm

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@Jaime: Ok, in the interest of seeing you embarrass yourself just a teeny bit less: "It really hurts you that Muslims blow each other and you consider that a lie" It's blow each other UP, Jaime. The "up" part is critical to the sentence. By leaving the "up" out of the sentence you're saying something completely different. Unless you're not, and have first hand experience being involved in such things, in which case by all means share. Or on second though, don't.

- Tristan

February 8, 2012 at 3:01pm

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Tristan. Calm down. Your sophisticated (?) insults show you have been uncovered completely with your biased anti-Israel hatred. And avoidance of criticizing Muslim madness. But rest assured I pity you, feel sorry for you. Nothing hurts more than facing the truth you arrogantly have denied . You have lost your controls. My ex-friend Tristan, Triston, whatever, I will keep en eye on your distorted blogs. And I will set you straight. Keep up the faith.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 3:05pm

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Tristan. Calm down. Your sophisticated (?) insults show you have been uncovered completely with your biased anti-Israel hatred. And avoidance of criticizing Muslim madness. But rest assured I pity you, feel sorry for you. Nothing hurts more than facing the truth you arrogantly have denied . You have lost your controls. My ex-friend Tristan, Triston, whatever, I will keep en eye on your distorted blogs. And I will set you straight. Keep up the faith.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 3:05pm

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Tristan You are taking over ironyroad job. Proper English is his field, even for Muslims blowing each other UP. I knew that as an ex friend you would still be charitable to me. But asking for Israel to interfere in Syria, that is as anti-Israel as it can get. Imagine Israel's neighbors outrage. Israel can not get involved, and will not get involved. And as you pointed out, Israel would not touch at all. Well Tristan my ex friend, please before you post make sure your hand is in gear with your brain. Be calm and keep up the faith a la Travis Smiley from all places PBS.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 3:20pm

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Jaime, if you're comparing me to ironyroad, I consider that a compliment. Just so you know. Ditto arnon, blackie, soph, wildboy, and the long list of everybody else on here you insult because they have the temerity to point out you have the intelligence of a rottweiler, only with slightly less developed social skills.

- Tristan

February 8, 2012 at 3:27pm

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By the way, I hate to come between ex-friends, but as a corollary to "blow up each other" one should note that it's "keep the faith" not "keep up the faith," which could be misread once one has gotten into the zone, so to speak. :)

- ironyroad

February 8, 2012 at 3:30pm

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Read all the replies to my comments and will respond later today.

- arnon

February 8, 2012 at 3:31pm

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Basman, your point about LW not claiming to offer a strategic plan but rather a kind of polemic on responsibility is well taken, but the quote you select gives something away (accidentally?) that echoes what I wrote earlier: "We should aid and arm the Free Syrian Army, perhaps with the Saudis and the Qataris and Obama’s regional idol Erdogan, and offer protection to the parts of the country that they control." The slip is "regional idol." There is of course zero evidence -- but who needs it? -- that Erdogan is idolized or anything remotely like that by the president, but somehow our friend Leon couldn't write his sentence without being overcome by a desire to jab between the ribs even if it subverts his ostensibly more important message, rather like the guy who wants to apologize to his girlfriend but can't help throwing in an excuse justified by her glaring faults. I find this aside of LW's simply a prequel to the predictable surge of bitter indictments, from identical sources, of Obama and how his unthought-out Syria intervention has made the situation worse for Israel, and how he just doesn't care, because he's so corrupted by Rashid Khalidi anyhow.

- ironyroad

February 8, 2012 at 3:41pm

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Wild boy, right back atcha' with wadr. But I read Wielseltier's piece differently than do you. I don't see it as another one of his muddled forays into geostrategy. And I don't think the arguable clinker in it that you comment on, and that I noted to myself when I first read the piece, as Libya so Syria, supports your characterization of the entire article. Differently than do you, I read the piece as a pretty cogent argument for the need for America to do something in Syria  and his final bit of prescription capstones that.  I see the attempted Libya Syria nexus as a weaker incidental point along the way of his overall argument. In a word or three, I think you over elaborate this point.  And one other thing: there's, I'd argue, a kernel of logical correctness to that nexus when seen in light of the overall axis of his argument. His ultimate call here is a moral one, and he's by my lights made a pretty good case for his call. The underlying driver of doing something in Libya, more than interest, was a moral concern of wholesale slaughter in Benghazi and elsewhere too. In that sense of a principled concern and acknowledging that more can be done than is now being done, that nexus is not so badly made out at that. Finally as to your interesting distinction between a voice of conscience and punditry, I don't think it's telling as to Wieseltier--I don't refer to him as Leon, I've never met the man. I think he'd revile being thought of as a pundit and I rarely seeing him traveling to that province. You may be mixing the pundit apple with the goetrategic orange though I don't see him going to that latter land either, and certainly not in this piece. While I have criticized him plenty over the years I've been reading him here, including when his moral outrage gets the better of him, his sensibility and wisdom and depth are superior to most of the pundits I read. And for me this piece is him at near to his best, making well reasoned, accessible arguments fueled by moral urgency and here, bending the cliche some, speaking truth to the need for a measure of power.

- basman

February 8, 2012 at 3:48pm

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Dear Tristan. Non of the people you mention have attacked me this time, maybe blackton. Thus it was in the past. I personally like chocolate Labrador like mine pet Mimi. Unfortunately you have not calmed down. But that is your problem. Listen to me from an ex friend. I will never accept your anti-Israel bias. And being too irritated leads to heart attacks. But I was thinking. Israel will not attack Syria unless is for self defense. Iran thru Syria has installed 50,000 missiles in Hizbullah/Lebanon, 10,000 missiles in Hamas/Gaza. Is to be assumed that Syria has a larger supplies of missiles. At any rate Bashar al Assad said several times over the last months that if Syria is attacked from the outside, he will make sure that in "thirty minutes" he will fire all those missiles at Israel. Somebody shut up the Syrian dictator. He has not said it anymore. At any rate thevPentagon is working plans to deal with Syria. But to my ex- friend Tristan, Triston, whatever. When the Syrian killings started a few months ago I kept blogging my outrage at such killings. You heard it from me not a beep from my ex friend Hider of ......I will not mention it I will really miss him if he had a heart attack. You see I really enjoy his lunatic postings. His arrogance is out of line. And he thinks he is soooo smart. Dear ex-friend keep UP the faith. Calm down. Here almost everybody likes you, They don't respect you, but they like you. Maybe. Sincerely JaimeChuch

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 3:51pm

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irony road. I will correct myself keep the faith.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 3:53pm

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Irony good point and eye. I didn't fasten on the regional idol thing. As for the sequels to come, I'm not so sure of their inevitability and I'd think that Wiesletier is too sophisticated to indulge the line about Khalidi having infested Obama's thinking. I'm going to adopt an agnostic-tending-to-atheistic wait and see on the sequel you contemplate possibly coming.

- basman

February 8, 2012 at 3:55pm

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I posted this before that Erdogan has colon cancer and has sort of laying low from public. You can google Erdogan cancer and get other references. This is one of them http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/150854#.TzLhhaN5mSM It was important news because (1). He became the Islamist par excellence. (2) Obama consulted frequently with Erdogan communicating several times weekly.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 4:03pm

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And Rick Santorum is trouble. An old nemesis of my ex friend Tristan. I hope he keeps his cool.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 4:08pm

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Somehow LW is not current. (1) Turkey has been helping the anti-Assad insurgents, and demanding for Assad to leave, for quite a while. (2) Saudi Arabia has stated firmly no military intervention in Syria. LW should inform himself better than to rely on The New York Times. He is not even current that Erdogan has been on a leave of absence because of his colon cancer treatments, although the latter has been denied by Turkish sources. At any rate Erdogan is not in charge for now of the Turkish government.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 4:24pm

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Basman, your points are well taken. I only refer to him as "Leon" because it generally takes too long to write "Wieseltier" over and over, and I am liable to constantly mis-spell it. Perhaps LW is a better compromise -- on the other hand, we all know whom we are talking about.

- wildboy

February 8, 2012 at 4:51pm

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Basman, you support this: We should aid and arm the Free Syrian Army, perhaps with the Saudis and the Qataris and Obama’s regional idol Erdogan, and offer protection to the parts of the country that they control. But do you really see that as being effective? Some small arms fire is not going to take out tanks and attack helicopters. And Syria is the pet of Iran, so I don't see they will be phased as to Sunni Arab condemnation. As to the parts that the opposition controls, it ain't much. There is also not a clearly defined sense of who are the rebels and who is the regime. There are Alawites who oppose Assad and there are Sunni who support Assad. And then there are the Kurds and the Christians who are stuck in the middle, they might hate Assad but they are scared of a Sunni, Muslim brotherhood controlled state. The composition of the Free Syrian Army is primarily Sunni. I am fine with arming them to the extent that we can but lets be aware of their composition. I wish this were a lot more clear cut like Libya. Gadhafi killed Americans and was nuts. Assad is a butcher but one that a significant portion of the population supports, like the Alawites, Shia, some wealthy Sunni, and who is tolerated by the Christians and Kurds. No one has laid out a clear path to remove Assad that would necessitate direct American involvement. And what has been proposed won't work overnight. (if at all)

- blackton

February 8, 2012 at 5:35pm

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I have to go to the gym before I could finish reading everyone's comments with the attention, care and concentration each deserves, much less with being prepared to offer a reaction comment with the appropriate level of ignorance, stupidity, and malice. I will try to make such a contribution by tonight, but I just wanted to let everyone know I am paying careful attention to what you are writing, and as usual, trying to learn from those with more knowledge, intelligence, and wisdom (not to mention better manners) than me. So please don't forget as you continue this (evidently the most active thread today) discussion that I am carefully reading, studying, and learning from my betters. Thank you.

- skahn

February 8, 2012 at 5:48pm

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Oh, yes, I will stop off from the gym and invade Syria on the way home.

- skahn

February 8, 2012 at 5:49pm

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Oh good -- pick up some of that nice Syrian hummus too, if you get a chance!

- ironyroad

February 8, 2012 at 6:48pm

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I think perhaps the US should sit this one out. It appears that no matter what type of intervention is done, the results are always disappointing and counter productive. "Martin Kramer Alon Liel, ex-director general of Israel's foreign ministry, chairs the Israel-Syria Peace Society. His tune has changed: "If Assad remains Syria's ruler, he won't get the Golan. An illegitimate ruler doesn't deserve such a prize. If the rebels take over, it will take time to consolidate internal control, and many years will pass before they demand the Golan." I saw him say the same on TV yesterday. Good for him."

- noga1

February 8, 2012 at 6:50pm

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Tristan “@Arnon: I'm not sure about that. You may be correct, but game this out... let's say Israel sends a few battalions to the outer edge of the Golan, and then declares the Heights to be a protected zone for Syrian refugees.” Nice fairytale, Tristan. What if Assad says, ok, you want to protect refugees, I’ll give you refuges and then send then of thousand of Palestinian living in Syria for generations and who have not been allowed to become Syrian citizens to the “protected zone?”

- arnon

February 8, 2012 at 7:03pm

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wildboy “Arnon, you're being too kind to a man of Wieseltier's intelligence by simply excusing his incoherent statements on intervention in Syria as those of a "moralist".” So you are saying that if the article had been written by someone will less intelligence than LW than we would have to take his words at face value, but because LW is intelligence he must have had some hidden purpose. (at least I hope this is what you meant.) Btw: I don’t think his statement was incoherent. I believe that he like most of us doesn’t know how to put into effect the desire to rid Syria of Assad. He wrote his column, I am guessing, in part to start a discussion and in part to clarify in his own mind what he was feeling about the situation.

- arnon

February 8, 2012 at 7:09pm

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blackton “arnon, are you saying Israel has no way to supply arms via the Christians in Lebanon to the Syrians?” Well, yes covert aid is a strong possibility, and maybe they are doing so already. The press and internet are not places where one would want to adverise covert action. “And by the way, I don't buy that the people who are getting killed by Assad would suddenly support him if Israel launched a surgical strike to take him out, or created a safe haven in the south.” Probably not the people of Syria; at least those who openly oppose the Bathist government. But, others (countries and Islamist groups) in the region would.

- arnon

February 8, 2012 at 7:17pm

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@Arnon: "Nice fairytale, Tristan. What if Assad says, ok, you want to protect refugees, I’ll give you refuges and then send then of thousand of Palestinian living in Syria for generations and who have not been allowed to become Syrian citizens to the “protected zone?” So what if he does? This would make the world stop spinning, how? In any military action to topple Assad there are going to be refugees. The idea with refugees is you protect them then they go home when the fihting stops. I don't see how tens of thousands (I assume this is what you meant to write) of Palestinians being let into what is already a heavily fortified zone is any better or worse than what will be - mark my words if the US or Israel or whomever actually undertakes ground warfare - the reality of a couple hundred thousand refugees having to go SOMEWHERE. What about what I suggested do see you as impossible? I didn't say, mind you, that it was probably it would happen. But it is preferrable to unilateral U.S. action on the ground, which has formidable logistical challenges, scant likelihood of stopping widespread sectarian violence, and a high probability of commiting large US forces to cointerinsurgency operations on Syrian soil for years.

- Tristan

February 8, 2012 at 7:27pm

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Russia and China are close partners with Syria and Iran, and will protect their interests. Russia with business and China getting all of it's oil from Iran who protects Syria. But the Chinese are all over the place building high speed railroads for the Israelis, and others, just check the Wikipedia. And they are going to build a high speed system between Eilat and Haifa in the Negev, by-passing the suez canal, to be operational in 2017. This project is not insignificant, due to the enormous gas findings off the coast of Israel. It will make energy independent and a major exporter. Maybe it will fulfill Obama's demand from China to search other energy sources replacing Iran. Although will be too late to stop Iran from getting nukes. Interesting scenarios. Syria and Iran have powerful friends Russia and China. BTW Japan gets it's oil also from Iran. But that is another story. China building Israeli high speed train connecting the Mediterranean Haifa with Eilat and the East. http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/02/05/192730.html

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 7:35pm

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I am on the way to the gym, I thought I posted this before. (Evidently I am demented, or this is an apology.) I did not have time to read all the comments in this (evidently the most active thread on TNR today) with the care, attention, concentration, appreciation merited by the intelligence, wisdom, kindness, tolerance (not to mention good manners) of the comments and posters. After I work out, (and after I make a short detour to bring peace and justice to Syria on my way home) I will (as time permits, as I need to first check to see if the electric fence is working against the predators who want to eat our chickens), I will study, contemplate all the comments and try to learn knowledge, courtesy, and respect from all the marvellous and superior members of my cohort at The New Republic. By the way, the 2nd Coming of the Savior is tomorrow, or at least no later than Monday, and He know what you've been doing and he knows if you have been naughty or if you have been nice. So repent and clean up your act.

- skahn

February 8, 2012 at 7:35pm

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Now I found the comment I thought I had posted but couldn't find. So, I am demented, but had a quick recovery. Anyway. I apologize. I will try and learn from my betters. I will try and pick up some hummus on the way home from the gym. Let's pray for peace in Syria or kill for peace in Syria. If you want peace, work for justice, said a Pope.

- skahn

February 8, 2012 at 7:42pm

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Skahn. I prefer to pray for peace in Syria . But why the Almighty doesn't listen, why ? But why humans don't listen, why? Maybe the devil is as powerful as it is. I believe in positive and negative forces in constant battle. I admire my pets, so calm and full of goodness. Humans are not at the same level. Hatred, violence, killings. According to Budhism we are in this world to be happy . Avoid the negative. As humans it is so easy to be blinded by fury. It is in human nature. I believe in coming back from dead, and punishment to a lowly life from being negative, and reward from being positive. But if you have been a mix, that will be treated accordingly. Time will tell. Soon pretty soon. In the meantime live with your conscience.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 8:13pm

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". I will try and pick up some hummus on the way home from the gym." What's with the hummus meme? Are Syrians known for their hummus? How many time can a joke be repeated before it gets stale and annoying? Anyway, what's the point of going to the gym and then ruining the whole effort by following it up with a plate of hummus and 4 pitas? (It takes 4 pitas to finish one plate of hummus, doesn't it?). You should aim for the youghurt or the labneh, if it must be an Arab food.

- noga1

February 8, 2012 at 8:43pm

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Skahn Work for justice. Israel population 20% Arabs mostly Muslim with equal rights. Syria population 20% Palestinian refugees kept in camps for ever and ever. No equal rights. BTW there are 472,000 Palestinian refugees in Syria. Then the anti-Israel gang attacks Israel headed by Jimmy Carter calling Israel apartheid. Where do we start working for justice. And then we read arnon and Tristan discussing Hafes al Assad dumping Palestinian refugees onto the Golan Heights. Hypothetical discussion. Like in Hitchcock's movie, Strangers in a Train, you do my crime and I do yours, perfect crime, crisscross. Only that it was not too hypothetical. Tristan will go into a shock if and when American troops enter Syria to maintain a just peace. Hopefully it will not happen. Russia and China will not let it happen. Certainly not Obama. Let us pray for the souls of the dead. I tell you is tough to be a Jew-Bud. As I am. But most of the time I am happy, considering.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 8, 2012 at 8:49pm

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Tristan "So what if he does? This would make the world stop spinning, how?" That would be enough to change the focus from Assad to Israel on the "Arab street." There is no need to take that chance.

- arnon

February 8, 2012 at 8:52pm

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"discussing Hafes al Assad dumping " Bashar al Assad.

- noga1

February 8, 2012 at 9:26pm

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I was just riffing on skahn's joke about stopping off on the way home to invade Syria. No deeper meaning and I don't recall making the joke -- or even deploying the meme -- before.

- ironyroad

February 8, 2012 at 11:15pm

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My comment was not intended for you. Ironyroad. Skahn has mentioned Hummus a few times in his comments and I wonder why he finds it so funny anyway.

- noga1

February 8, 2012 at 11:35pm

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Oh.

- ironyroad

February 9, 2012 at 12:56am

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OK, I read over all the comments. I think this thread has been about worn out. If not, I am doing my best to kill it.

- skahn

February 9, 2012 at 1:54am

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I don't especially find hummus funny. I've always thought of it as a “Middle Eastern food,” neither Arab or Jewish in particular. Wikipedia seems to confirm that. As a child of non-observant Jewish parents who worshiped health food and whose diets were influenced by Eastern European ancestors, I ate a variety of foods, including on occasion, hummus. I don't especially love it or hate it. Someone mentioned it and I riffed on it a bit, and like a game of “Rumor,” it got out of control. Actually, Ironyroad said, “Oh good -- pick up some of that nice Syrian hummus too, if you get a chance!” I don't know if there is any significant difference between Syrian hummus or Israeli hummus or any other hummus.

- skahn

February 9, 2012 at 1:55am

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This reminds me of an old Yiddish joke. It runs something like this, Jacob sees his rabbi in a restaurant eating some pork. He walks up to his rabbi and says sarcastically, “Rabbi, I hope you are enjoying your kosher pork chop!” To which his rabbi replies, “Jacob, I am certainly enjoying it more than I am your spiteful tongue!” Italic off?

- skahn

February 9, 2012 at 1:58am

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It is said, that if you “sleep with someone” [euphemism for have sex with], you sleep with everyone that person ever they slept with. Less salaciously, everyone is a product of all their experiences and relationships, most of which we don't know. Small example: as a child I often ate “organ meats” not typical of Wasp American diets, such as beef and chicken liver, beef heart, beef kidney, beef brain, beef tongue etc. My wife, product of a very WASP family, is grossed out by this. The only one of these items that it a favorite of mine is tongue. My wife, a loving spouse, fixed it a few times, even though disgusted by my hankering for it. When my wife was a little girl, her mother (trying to sure her children got good nutrition) occasionally made her children eat liver. My wife loves the song (apparently from the comedy group “Second City”) that runs: I said... I hate liver, liver makes me quiver, liver makes me curl right up and die, makes me cry... it gives you hives, gives you scurvy, turns my stomach topsy turvy, liver just simply ain't my bag." In fact, my wife, as a child, would sit in her chair for hours with a piece of liver in her mouth, rather than swallow it. Sometimes she would be able to sneak it to her family's dog, who would eagerly and uncritically snarf it down. I don't “love” liver, but if prepared reasonably well, I find it palatable. So if you invited me over and served liver, I would be content with the meal. If you offered my wife liver, she would politely refuse, but probably never want to visit you again.

- skahn

February 9, 2012 at 2:03am

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The point I try to make on the Middle East is that the countries there, including Arab countries, Israel, Iran, Turkey, etc., exist and are not likely to go away. They all have their grievances and problems. Understanding the past is necessary and useful, but we can't change it. Unless some nuclear event is going to exterminate large swathes of your enemies in a neat, contained, miraculous, precision strike, we either learn to live together, or quite a few of us (including, eventually, we here in the United States) are going to suffer and die in great pain and misery.

- skahn

February 9, 2012 at 2:05am

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The second point I try to make is that if we argue for people in the Middle East to speak to each other with tolerance and patience, and try (as much as reasonably possible) to act with tolerance and patience, we hardly make a very persuasive case here at The New Republic if we are busy insulting and (virtually) screaming at each other.

- skahn

February 9, 2012 at 2:07am

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Here, more or less randomly chosen (with no attempt to label any particular participant as a villain or as being at greater fault than anyone else) are a few of the choice phrases and epithets in this discussion thread over the last day. I have intentionally taken them out of context seeking the most irritating and hostile examples and skipped over the more sensible, moderate, and carefully worded comments. I also have avoided quoting any names or references to names:

- skahn

February 9, 2012 at 2:08am

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but don't let a minor detail stand in the way of a rant. In the past I called you a paid Iranian blogger. I was wrong you are a Muslim lover blogger and no friend of israel. And with your cynicism and hypocrisy you are the most arrogant blogger on this site. I restrain myself in not using [his] Turret's vocabulary, obscene and derogatory. Read your second posting. And is as bad as your first. You are a Muslim lover no friend of Israel. Hypocrite and arrogant. And to me despicable. Your arrogant hypocrisy is really disgusting. The stupidest poster on TNR has decided I'm no longer a paid Iranian blogger and instead I am a Muslim-lover blogger. I don't know what that means, but I'm guessing my dating life is about to change drastically. I've tried to be nice to you but I give up. What my esteemed peers on this site say about you are correct... you prove yourself, time and again, to have no functioning higher reasoning skills; you have the manners of a goat; your literary skills are surpassed in their hilarious stupidity only by your complete absence of any reading skills; and you're willing to twist, fold, bang, mold, and pretzel anyone comments into what you and you alone may interpret as offensive to Israel. what the hell are you babbling about? Your hysterical tone makes what you say a RANT. you are an ignorant stupid...Don't be the camel's ass. The coward anti Israel denier of Muslim atrocities … the arrogant hypocritical should change his name … so we will have the there stooges … I put you third to insult your arrogance. … we can not be friends because you are a dishonest anti-Israel bigot. And I am for Israel and antagonistic to Muslim hatred, violence, self killings that you hide in you closeted mind. Pernicious is a pretty sophisticated word for you ... Your case worker, did she help you with that one? You know, I would ask TNR to remove this crazy idiot, but he's so unintentionally hilarious I just can't bring myself to make the request. You are using Turrets insults. It really hurts you that Muslims blow each other and you consider that a lie. At the end I feel sorry for you. Aren't Iraqis blowing each other, they are are Muslims aren't they? Syrian atrocities against their own people Pakistanis killing each other. Is the law of the jungle Muslim law. If you had the strength to condemn the Muslim fanatics that do these atrocities, maybe maybe would help the majority of good Muslims to stop carnages. I say your anti-Israel behavior is wrong. ... You arrogant human being. [Editorial note. I believe the “Turrets” reference, which was briefly confusing me, refers to a minor (though irritating) mental malfunction known as Tourette Syndrome. I have encountered a few people who suffer from this ailment, and it is unpleasant and disconcerting to be exposed to it. However, I think that it has no relevance to any of this discussion, frankly. If you are not familiar with it -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourette_syndrome]

- skahn

February 9, 2012 at 2:09am

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Tourret syndrome was assigned to people that use insulting obscenities and denigrate their opponents. There is a blogger that in his first encounter with me about my reporting about Erdogan colon cancer challenged as a fabrication called me an ass head out of the blue. Then following responses to other bloggers, one two sentences, he always used obscene derogatory endings. In The present discussion he happened to behave, this person is arnon. And he did not communicate with me. Separately. In my discussions with my ex friend, Tristan, I restrained the usage of obscenities which I referred as Tourets syndrome. However I used remarks because he always takes the high ground , hence arrogance, and intends that his will be the last judgement on the subject. Tristan also uses insults to put you down, although these time he was not obscene, just elegant insults. Maybe because Tristan is a war veteran, or simply is in his nature. This behavior provides distraction to the back and forth conversation. The important item to me is that in his subtle, friendly conversation Tristan always manages to criticize Israel and avoid any criticism of Muslims. Actually he goes wild if you point out the Muslim atrocities so common nowadays. In a subtle way, in one of his old posts, he mentioned the canard often used by anti Israel bashers, that Israel succeeds because of the money given by the USA. When I presented facts to him, he did not respond. But what caused the present commotion, was that Tristan mentioned the other canard, in a subtle way, that USA should not commit troops to stop Syrian massacres. He proposed that Israel do that. You can read his blog. It has been the anti Israel crowd contentions, that the USA has been doing the fighting to protect Israel!!! So Tristan was proposing the same premise for the Syrian Muslim massacres. Why should the USA sacrifice since it is really Israel's fight??? Well skahn if you can not see it. What can I say. The fact of the matter is that my ex friend Tristan, can not hide anymore that he is no friend of Israel, and lover of Muslims, hiding Muslim atrocities . I don't think you can stop the arguing here. I like hummus. But I prefer chopped chicken liver, guefilte fish , herring, and Hallah bread. And some whiskey. My dad used to enjoy it after shabath services. Me too. Keep the faith. One way to escape reality is to be sarcastic. At the end Tourret syndrome belongs to the present discussion.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 9, 2012 at 4:03am

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It was that agriculture secretary to Richard Nixon that made the remark about the Pope on sexual matters. You can not make the rules if you don't play the game. Judgement at nothingness. Johnny come lately. Or humus went to his head.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 9, 2012 at 4:33am

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And now it is going to get serious the UN is sending a mission to Syria while Bashar al Assad , thanks noga1 2nd time you correct me, has increased the killings. http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/09/world/meast/syria-unrest/ BTW how the media enjoys killings. PBS in the nightly news showing the suffering of children just being shot. Of course they gave a warning. The sado masochistic news media. Has this anything to do with Sodoma and Ghomorrah? But great thunders of fire PBS doesn't have commercials, so they can show children bleeding a little bit longer. And to top it all Thayer had an interview with Sbigniew Brzenski on his book how the world is changing, power wise. The surprising part is how this inept mediocre aid to Jimmy Carter has survived. Is the petrodollars that keeps him going. Did not mention his usual anti-Israel diatribes. Just refered to declining USA power and the rise of the near east China an all.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 9, 2012 at 4:54am

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"This reminds me of an old Yiddish joke. It runs something like this, Jacob sees his rabbi in a restaurant eating some pork. He walks up to his rabbi and says sarcastically, “Rabbi, I hope you are enjoying your kosher pork chop!” To which his rabbi replies, “Jacob, I am certainly enjoying it more than I am your spiteful tongue!”" This is a joke? Go figure.

- noga1

February 9, 2012 at 7:01am

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Jaime, Jaime, yingaleh. Du bist a meshugeh gevorn? I said it before and I say it now, leave the Syrians alone. Fight the drive to do "good goodie" with all your might. For once I say that Obama's instinct on this issue is correct. Bashar's days are numbered anyway and the opposition is not much better than him. Damascus calling? It's busy. Just sit back and enjoy the show. May both sides win big.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 9, 2012 at 7:36am

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Noga1. You are so right where was the joke. The Rabbi the pork and the tongue, I guess he like tongue, his sister disliked it, but he wanted to insert the word spiteful. makover. I thought the spelling was makeover. Do you use the word meshugener to insult me? Well is early in the morning and you have succeeded in irritating me. But for you to wish that the Syrian massacre should continue indicates your lack of good feelings at all. You should have used your Yidish skills to say let the Goyim kill each other, the word is you are a meshumet, and a vile one. Yidim like you better not encounter them. You should be ashamed of yourself. Surely I am ashamed of you. If you enjoy the show ,hell, you are the sorry example that attracts anti-semites and is hard to blame them. Yes a despicable meshumet.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 9, 2012 at 8:40am

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ditto " leave the Syrians alone. Fight the drive to do "good goodie" with all your might." from 02/09/2012 - 7:36am EDT | makover And, for anyone who thinks Israel should actively engage on anything related to "military" and "Syria", you seem unaware that Syria is in a State of War with Israel since 1948? Or that Israel formally annexed the Golan Heights after 1967? That the Druse who are the indigenous people of the Golan have been wary of accepting full Israeli citizenship just in case any Assad decided to retaliate? Or that having Israel supply arms to the Syrian 'opposition' thru Lebanon's Christinas shows an appalling shallowness of understanding the dynamics of Lebanon and Syria? as for LW's quote: "Obama’s regional idol Erdogan" Well, it has been widely reported that Obama does speak with Erdogan far more than any other "leader" in the world. Since TNR has decided Syria deserves a symposium on "What to do?", I guess skahn has the right to rty to kill this thread. I just wanted to express my agreement with makover, while venting my sadness at the absence of depth on understanding anything about Israel by anyone who thinks Israel has ANY active role to play in what happens to Assad's Syria while Hezbollah has 50,000 missiles pointing at Israel, more proof of the failure of the United Nations (res 1702?). btw, the Eastern Med is already bristling with naval assets - especially Russian, because one of Russia's interests is in maintaining their basing rights in Syria. There IS a pending fight over offshore natural gas. No one should be calling for the USA to deploy even one carrier group to the Eastern Med.

- K2K

February 9, 2012 at 8:54am

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makover. I thought the spelling was makeover. You are a lowdown snake, a creepy one, hater of Goyim. Ich hob you indreerd.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 9, 2012 at 8:57am

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K2K There are already USA carriers in the Eastern Mediterranean.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 9, 2012 at 9:05am

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"as for LW's quote: 'Obama’s regional idol Erdogan' Well, it has been widely reported that Obama does speak with Erdogan far more than any other 'leader' in the world." Political leaders speak with one another frequently as circumstances in the world demand, not because one "idolizes" the other. Folks around here should grow up. Most of them left high school a while ago.

- ironyroad

February 9, 2012 at 10:05am

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advise to skhan. to protect you chickens you should get a yama they are excellent guard animals, they scare the hell out of the coyotes. yamas spit with the force of a gun. just like an arnon in animal form. for those lazy to check wikipedia, yamas are part of the family than include camels and the beautiful docile alpacas. no need to patronize, just protect your chickens. you have "excellent" comments (?) in the TNR Syria blogs keep it up above all keep the faith. ding dong ding dong. there is humus for you. is made of chick peas olive oil garlic, its eaten as a side dish. great with falafels. palestinian and israelis are great at cooking falafels.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 9, 2012 at 11:44am

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makover: I heartily concur.

- noga1

February 9, 2012 at 1:08pm

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This is for skahn who I suspect will enjoy Orwell's antisemitic spurts when he was still a callow writer with an unexamined self: Orwell is unloading clothes in a Parisian secondhand shop: The owner is "a red-haired Jew, an extraordinarily disagreeable man" who "It would have been a pleasure to have flattened the Jew's nose, if only one could have afforded it." Back in London, Orwell wanders into a coffee shop near Tower Hill where "in a corner by himself a Jew, muzzle down in the plate, was guiltily wolfing bacon." Orwell, who is one of my intellectual heroes, grew out of his crude antisemitism and discarded such malignant thinking like soiled rags. Years later he went on to write a pretty insightful essay on the subject: http://orwell.ru/library/articles/antisemitism/english/e_antib I thought skahn would appreciate the similarity between his "joke" and Orwell's bacon-eating Jew. The same kind of sentiment seems to animate both references.

- noga1

February 9, 2012 at 1:19pm

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noga1, or venus1(?).......tsp tsp tsp another hater of Goyim. This time is and old bi........

- JAIMECHUCH

February 9, 2012 at 1:21pm

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Thank you to everyone for reading my "digest" of the most "excellentest" comments in this thread so far, and for rising to the challenge and making even better comments. To Jaime, I appreciate your advice about keeping (I believe) llamas as guard companion animals for the chickens. I have seen llamas and alpacas on Whidbey Island, and I have no doubt that they would deter the occasional raccoon and coyote I see from time to time on our property, though the netting and electric fence probably work well enough. I am not sure that a llama would have the agility to kick a chicken hawk out of the air as it made a plunge at Big Mama, Moll, or Lucy (our three hens). I am not sure there is enough room in the chicken run [outside protected yard] for llamas and chickens, and I am not sure chickens and llamas co-habit that well, though perhaps they do.

- skahn

February 9, 2012 at 1:24pm

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And her favorite writer publishes in YNET and only in Hebrew (!). Knows nothing understands nothing shares nothing. As long as Goyim kill each other these schlemiels inhabitate the garbage disposal of human hubris. Keep the faith. But these two ich hob them indreerd.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 9, 2012 at 1:28pm

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K2K - all other good comments by you aside, the US 6th fleet spends enough time in the eastern Med to be on a first name basis with the local Israeli fishermen. It's their turf.

- Tristan

February 9, 2012 at 1:32pm

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Welcome, Noga and Makeover, to the ever growing Council of Nations (err, bloggers) sniped and insulted by the exceedingly brain damaged Jaime, who declares anyone who disagrees with him to be a hater of Israel a muslim-lover, and many other things scatological which I will not repeat. Perhaps we should have jackets made? Of course the upshot in all this is that now, in typical enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend fashion. we now find Arnon and Noga on the same team, albeit a team put together by someone certifiably crazy. The two ranking opinions (IMHO) in these blogs on events in the Middle East, who don't, for reasons that escape me, seem to get along too well, finally finding themselves on the same side! See we CAN all get along, everyone.

- Tristan

February 9, 2012 at 1:40pm

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skahn. Llamas as guardians. http://poultrykeeper.com/chickens/poultry-keeper-s-chicken-stories/llamas-as-guardians-for-chickens.html Keep the faith Turkey helping Syrian rebels http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204136404577210551598821654.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

- JAIMECHUCH

February 9, 2012 at 1:40pm

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I don't read or speak either Hebrew or Arabic, but I suspect there are people among the participants of TNR who do. It occurs to me that there are online forums in Syria (or other countries in that area) where people as kind, intelligent, and mature as we are are having similar discussions to the ones we have here. High school and college students from various parts of the world travel as "exchange students" and live with "host families" in the interest of learning other customs, languages, and of promoting world peace. Members of my family have participated in such activities, though they do not always turn out quite as happily as one might wish. [For example, a niece of mine lived with a French host family, brought one of the family home, married him, divorced him, and then became a martial arts teacher.] Nevertheless, we should remain hopeful and strive for the positive. Can we not get people from Israel, Syria, Egypt, Turkey, etc. to participate in these discussions and help us learn together in peace and harmony? Reading this article and this discussion thread might provide a good beginning to such an effort. By the way, "chick peas" are also known as "garbanzo beans," I believe. My wife and I grow a variety of peas and beans, but I think our climate is not quite warm enough to grow them. I am not sure how the chickens would go for humus. They are quite eclectic in their tastes -- chowing down with delight on various worms, beetles, grubs and weeds -- but also turning up their beaks at other items you might consider equally delicious, such as slugs and snails. Go figure.

- skahn

February 9, 2012 at 1:47pm

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Bravo Tristan when you are wrong and loose an argument you resort to your Turret syndrome, obscenities and put down people, but that is your problem. There is a very nice little book that could help your illness of post war damage, is by Carolina Nadel and you can find it in Amazon. See also my previous comment, you were asking for help on Syrians map, it is in the Wall Street Journal article I posted for skahn, Turkey helping the Syrian rebels. Well ex friend , your anti Israel hatred, and your love for Muslim violence that you so apt hide, can only match your hypocrisy arrogance. Hope you keep your Turret syndrome under control. There is room to feel sorry for you in my heart. I understand you were saved by a Muslim during the war. He gave his live for you. Well in my believes he has come back and is trying to save you from your misguided present condition Ex friend keep the faith. Allah be with you.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 9, 2012 at 1:56pm

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I see even as I write and post my comments, others are also participating in "real time" as the "Social Network" of TNR becomes practically a "chat room." (If I were more sophisticated technically, I would rig up a microphone in the chicken run and feed their comments (in audio format) into this discussion. I am sure everyone here would find the chickens' comments as intelligent and perceptive as many of the other contributors' comments.) I appreciate the evidence about the compatibility (at least in Great Britain) of chickens and llamas, as well as the information about Turkey intervening in Syria. As a child, I helped raise some turkeys (who proved to be incredibly stupid birds, much dumber than chickens), though I mean no respect to human Turks. However, bottom line, I don't think my wife would be all that enthusiastic to bringing llamas into our domestic arrangements.

- skahn

February 9, 2012 at 1:58pm

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I confess to quite an admiration and appreciation of Tristan's comments (though we disagree a bit on some theological matters). For example, the following could hardly be better stated in my opinion. Of course the upshot in all this is that now, in typical enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend fashion. we now find Arnon and Noga on the same team, albeit a team put together by someone certifiably crazy. The two ranking opinions (IMHO) in these blogs on events in the Middle East, who don't, for reasons that escape me, seem to get along too well, finally finding themselves on the same side! See we CAN all get along, everyone.. I think this is true, and hope that Tristan and I, at least, can continue to get along, regardless of occasional differences of opinion. Hope! Hope! Hope!. We must all have hope!

- skahn

February 9, 2012 at 2:02pm

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"Tourette's" Jaime. Not "turret syndrome". And the guy who saved my life was an atheist from Nebraska. Not a whole lot of Muslims in Nebraska (though in fairness, not a lot of self identifying atheists, either). Not sure where you got the "saved by a Muslim" thing, but then like everyone else on here I've grown rather used to you making up your own facts. Congrats, by the way, on incorporating PTSD into your rant. Every time I think you can't possibly be more vile, you prove me wrong.

- Tristan

February 9, 2012 at 2:04pm

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Right back at you, Skahn.

- Tristan

February 9, 2012 at 2:06pm

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skahn. I don't know how chickens would go for processed food. Humus is made from boiled chick peas (garbanzos), blended with olive oil and garlic, better check the Wikipedia. All the delights your chickens eat have been well documented. However during my young years, some friends of mine, we got a bunch of baby chicks to grow, we had to be very careful that the food we gave at the beginning had to be well sanitized. I guess this is not news to you. Personally I like to eat turkey no pun intended. Chicken soup OK. Sorry I am not yet a vegetarian. What do you do with your chickens , do you sell them?

- JAIMECHUCH

February 9, 2012 at 2:07pm

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Tristan you are right you posted that your savior name was Tristan. You did not indicate to be a Muslim. Whatever the spelling you do have an uncontrolled angry obscene words putting down behavior. Strong arrogance attitude . Anti Israel hide Muslim atrocities bloging. that is why we are ex friends. On top you are an hypocrite. But really I hope you will improve, change, whatever. Above all keep your cool, believe me angry people are more prone to get heart attacks. Even that we are ex friends, I would miss. You see evil brings up the good in us. Hope my reference helped you to see the Syrian cities close to the Turkish borders. Also you have dropped your request for Israel intervening in Syria. At any rate ex friend, keep the faith.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 9, 2012 at 2:21pm

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noga1 The old joke I heard was the conversation between a Rabbi and a Catholic priest having dinner. The Catholic priest said to feel sorry the Rabbi could not it ham. At the end of the dinner the Rabbi said in leaving that he felt sorry the Catholic priest could not enjoy the pleasures the Rabbi was going to have with his wife that night. The other joke a priest a pastor and a rabbi attended the viewing of a mutual friend had just died, had no family. On leaving, the priest left a hundred dollars, the pastor left also a hundred dollars, the rabbi left a check for three hundred dollars and picked up the cash of two hundred dollars.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 9, 2012 at 2:49pm

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The other story is that night in Dublin Ireland. This guy with a gun picks up a suspect. Asks him are you Catholic or Protestant. The suspect thinks either might be dangerous. So he answers I am Muslim. The guy with the pistol says I am the luckiest Jew tonight in Dublin. This joke might affect my ex friend. But believe me it is only a joke.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 9, 2012 at 2:57pm

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Sorry I am not yet a vegetarian. What do you do with your chickens , do you sell them? I am definitely an omnivore. I am working on setting up a display for the local library to counter a fervent pro-vegetarian, pro-vegan display. Humans may wish we had not evolved as omnivores, but we did. Those who want it to be otherwise should take up the matter with the great Daddy or Mommy in the sky. My wife is a very modest, proper and thrifty person. She detests ostentatious display and waste. Although she would deny it vigorously, now that our child is grown and on her own, my wife regards the hens as little children. We have just enough eggs to meet our needs. We don't sell them and rarely give any away. It is tragic for a parent so see a child die, as happened to my aunt (mother of my Taiwanese millionaire cousin). We've had a couple of hens die of natural causes. My wife cried and carried on, so I hope she will carry on if I die first. My wife hopes the three current hens will outlive her and she cares for them tenderly.

- skahn

February 9, 2012 at 3:17pm

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My wife volunteers for the local senior center in a program that helps provide respite for caretakers of people with Alzheimer's Disease and other types of dementia. My genetics in this regard are not very good. My mother died of Alzheimer's, as did my father's oldest sister. My wife and I, in our separate ways, both unbelievers, meditate on our ending. One question is, will we know when to stop doing things we should no longer do? I am a bit dyslexic; now I observe more and more errors in my writing and comments. I am a bit ADD/HD; I find it harder and harder to concentrate and finish tasks. I repeat myself more often; people at TNR say, “You posted that already,” to me. We both have bad tempers; we have to make a special effort to be polite and kind to each other.”

- skahn

February 9, 2012 at 3:30pm

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I don't think my participation at The New Republic at the moment is so incoherent and irritating that I should stop (though at least one person here thinks I should cease). The day will inevitably come when I should indeed say something to the effect of Thanks for all the fish. It's been good to know you. The time has come for me to cease posting and let my subscription run out. Will I know when that day has come, or will I babble on incoherently to the dismay and irritation of almost everyone else on the web site? Or will I simply expire as I type, and someone will find me face down on my keyboard? Anyway, I will stop for now with this comment and go outside and get some exercise. (It helps stave off dementia and heart disease, except when it kills.)

- skahn

February 9, 2012 at 3:32pm

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I think I completely lost track on this thread. Ironyroad, tell us a properly funny joke, please.

- noga1

February 9, 2012 at 3:47pm

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This guy walks into a doctor's office with a duck on his head, and the doctor says, "Can I help you?", and the duck says, "Yeah, get this guy off my ass."

- Tristan

February 9, 2012 at 3:50pm

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"You are a lowdown snake, a creepy one, hater of Goyim." Forgot to take your medication Jaime?

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 10, 2012 at 12:26am

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makeover, or is it makeover. You said you were going to seat and enjoy the carnage in Syria. Advised the USA to do nothing. Now you are a hater of Goyim. But of course as a meshumet you use the usual, have you taken your meds. Be more imaginative. You disappoint me as a super doom Yid. Anyhow here is the latest on the Syrian conflagration http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4187930,00.html As a meshumet you are enjoying the killings of goyim. Shame on you.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 10, 2012 at 6:58am

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I don't think makeover, or is it makeover a Yidish omelet . He is not smart enough to be a meshumet. He is a schlemiel and a reverend schmuck. Watch it he is coming back with his only comment. "have you taken your meds" ?? Well the almighty created all kinds of cretins, you see not all yidn are smart, makeover, or is it makeover, is the example of the cretin par excellence. We are charitable we accept him as member of our clan, somebody has to be the shames of our Shul , as long as he doesn't get drunk and cleans the tables.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 10, 2012 at 7:09am

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makover, or is it makeover. The hater of goyim. It took you 24 hours to answer. The cretin will go to the dictionary to change his most illustrious comment. "have you taken your meds?". Enough time spent with this not too smart schlemiel.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 10, 2012 at 7:29am

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jaime: Here are the symptoms you are exhibiting: Difficulty with quiet activities "On the go" Excessive talking Blurting out answers Can't wait turn Intrusive ADHD is a real disorder. The brain uses various natural chemicals to help send messages across the nervous system. An imbalance of these chemical messengers may result in the inattentive and hyperactive/impulsive symptoms of ADHD. ADHD shows itself as a persistent pattern of inattention and/or hyperactivity/impulsivity that is more frequent and severe than what is typically seen in ones' peers. Just remember ADHD is not just a childhood disorder so there is nothing to be ashamed of. You must get help as soon as possible!

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

February 10, 2012 at 8:25am

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noga - very easy to lose track of this thread, but that is because I skip so many comments :) 02/09/2012 - 1:32pm EDT | Tristan "K2K - all other good comments by you aside, the US 6th fleet spends enough time in the eastern Med to be on a first name basis with the local Israeli fishermen. It's their turf." yes, Tristan, I know the USN whether it is 6th Fleet or the carrier groups deploying thru the Med en route to Fifth fleet AOR, or back home to Norfolk, is very much at home with any Israeli. But, contrary to some impressions, the USN rarely deploys a carrier group in the Med. No need to. Not even if the USA/NATO loses their sanity and decides to intervene in any way with any military assets, in Syria. ok, I did notice the mention of Llamas to guard skahn's chickens. oops. Llamas are excellent guardians of sheep, not chickens. written from a right-to-farm village where Llamas guard the sheep who live next to the village library on Main Street. My chicken-keeping neighbors are fighting the predators with skahn-like barriers, not a Llama. The cunning and handsome Mr. Fox has been very effective at chicken-killing on my short street, but a five-squirrel gang, muscled, with tats, has driven Mr. Fox away - a vendetta for Mr. Fox having moved on to smaller squirrels after the surviving chickens went into protective custody. Quite a sight seeing those five big squirrels show up as a gang, and, a week later, the next reported sighting of handsome Mr. Fox was about a half mile away. We have a wildlife sighting whiteboard at the village pizza destination. sorry to make this thread even less coherent. just avoiding all the silly talk about Syria in the TNR symposium.

- K2K

February 10, 2012 at 11:04am

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It's not Dublin, it's Belfast. During the Troubles a masked gunman stops a guy and asks him threateningly "Are you a prod (Protestant) or a teague (Catholic)?" The guy holding his hands up says, "Neither, I'm a Jew." The gunman stops for a moment, confused. Then he narrows his eyes and asks the guy: "Alright -- but are you a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?"

- ironyroad

February 10, 2012 at 1:22pm

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An Egyptian joke: A man going home one evening, only to find himself surrounded by an armed mob who demand “Are you with Us or The Others?” With Us, he replies, whereupon they shoot him dead declaring that they are The Others."

- noga1

February 10, 2012 at 2:07pm

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Hey, ironyroad, here is an VERY interesting article about Hitchens, James Joyce and Leopold Bloom. I would be interested to know what you think of this reading of Bloom's Jewishness: http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/books/86541/the-tenth-man-2/

- noga1

February 10, 2012 at 2:11pm

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Trap Crops As the child of ambivalently [self-hatingly?] Jewish parents, who ambivalently [mutual-hatingly?] married parents who subscribed to Organic Gardening magazine and worshipped J. I. Rodale, Louis Bromfield, and similar seers instead of Isaiah and other Biblical prophets, I am quite familiar with the myths of organic agriculture, such as trap crops. Pests are creatures that want to eat plants that I want to eat. Slugs are such pests. Slugs are demonic creatures. Slugs eat almost anything, but one of their favorite treats is a newly dead slug. [I presume a freshly dead slug is not kosher.] Slugs are lustful and hermaphroditic, so they don’t wonder if boy slugs or girl slugs have more fun; they swing [ooze] both ways. At TNR, even though most participants are intelligent, attractive, and careful about what they eat, there are inevitably ignorant, stupid, and offensive pests. If a discussion thread has many comments, you might think This is where the intelligent, informed, and civilized participants can be found. However, you would probably be more accurate if you regarded it as a Trap Crop thread, especially designed to lure the comment posters you do not want to read. After all, this article inspired 137 (at least) comments, and I am here.

- skahn

February 10, 2012 at 4:50pm

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What a strange impression skahn has about Judaism, as if it is all about "saiah and other Biblical prophets" and exclusive of Organic Gardening or whatever. And he is so obviously proud of such "unusual' Jewish parents and his own turning out to be such great tolerant fellow who can appreciate Syrian Hummus and Muslims who can actually laugh at a Bin Laden joke. (If the joke was anything like skahn's Jewish joke, then the joke is on skahn who did not realize his colleague was only being polite)

- noga1

February 10, 2012 at 6:36pm

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skahn. Slugs are treif (non kosher) because they have no bones, similarly are shrimp , oisters, etc. Just like pig , our ancestors declared them treif because of the illnesses they caused in antiquity. Also is forbidden to mix meat and milk, I don't recall right now the reason. As far as animals is concerned, I loved my female chocolate lab Mimi , I had her 14 years. Because her back legs gave up I put her to sleep in 2008, I stll miss her. I have lived with my younger son all these years. Now we have a kitten misty. I admire how smart these animals are. I admire they can not talk, but they communicate admirably. I believe that we humans are cursed with having language which we use to insult and try to hurt. Humans are evil . animals Are good and calm and pleasant. My parents were orthodox Jews. My father never tried to impose his views. Both my parents were very honest which I have always thanked. My parents are gone of course, but I bless their memory deeply. As for health my father had strokes problem, and from my mom I inherit good appetite. As for Alzheimer's that you report. You might know better than me. But yes keeping your mind alert, excersise , very positive attitude, there are some foods . Lately I have been using seeds Like shia, poppy, black sesame. At least they help with the immune system. Check the Wikipedia or better nuts on line. This is not a commercial advertisement on my part. No a pun intended. I started using these seeds in the last few months. And I believe have helped in arecent health problem I had with my swollen legs. I mix thevseed with my scrambledceggs, or with my soups that I like , I always loved soups. Most of the time I cook myself to control the salt intake. Because the late news which I watch on PBS and the cable channels, ignored completely tonight the Syrian massacres, I went using the Internet to aljazeera, alarabiya, and Turkish newspapers (just google it ) and Israeli like I use a lot nowadays YNet. The blasts that happened in Syrian city of Alepo. And other related news like Turkish foreign minister visiting Washington, and more. Bon Nuit, Buenas Noches. Laila Tov. Keep the Faith

- JAIMECHUCH

February 10, 2012 at 7:49pm

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Just to complement K2K squirrels story. Here is an interaction between buffalos-lions-crocodiles a true story. http://borkweb.com/story/kruger-national-park-buffalo-vs-lions-vs-crocodiles I don't remember where I picked it up. If it was on TNR or other.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 10, 2012 at 8:00pm

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"I believe that we humans are cursed with having language which we use to insult and try to hurt. " Nobody forces you to insult and hurt others. You do it of your own free will. You can thus blame yourself, not language.

- noga1

February 10, 2012 at 8:11pm

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Although my life has not been as adventurous as some of my relatives' lives (brother living in Senegal for three years and cousin becoming a Taiwanese millionaire and heroine), nor as creative and impressive as some of my relatives' lives (uncle winning Pulitzer Prize and Macarthur Genius Award for obscure atonal "modern classical" composition), it certainly provides raw material. If I had about 5% of the talent of a writer such as T. C. Boyle, I could have turned it into a best selling novel. Or perhaps a motion picture as iconic as You Can't Take it With You. [When I saw that movie, I said, "I didn't know Frank Capra [maybe George Kaufman/Moss Hart] knew my family. They may have thought that setting it in New York City instead of Chicago would let them get away with this plagiarism." Almost as funny are the absurd speculations and claims about my life and my family and my thoughts being posted as comments by noga and Jaime. I generally admit that most people here are more intelligent and knowledgeable (and probably in touch with reality) than I am. But, you know, when it comes to really being out of touch with reality and the slightest semblance of common or uncommon sense, I will bow -- perhaps lick the floor -- in deference to my superiors. Don't stop now, folks, you are really on a roll. We are up to 141 comments; let's see if we can make the trap crop get up to 200 comments, or more!

- skahn

February 10, 2012 at 8:28pm

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I misspelled the seeds are Chia not shia

- JAIMECHUCH

February 10, 2012 at 8:31pm

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noga1 Your comment reminds me of syllogisms I learned in my philosophy class used I guess a lot by Aristotle. First animals are kind and peaceful, they are not cursed with evil and language. Humans are most of the time evil and are cursed with language that use to insult and hurt others. We have to learn a lot from animals. Although we humans are animals too. But if we are the top in animal development, why are we so evil? Animals will kill to survive. Humans will hurt and kill just from hatred and pleasure. Look at the anger demonstrated in most of the blogs here and elsewhere. People insulting and responding with insults and hurt. I guess skhan is a welcome exception. Polite and humble. Just your response was an angry one. Sorry to say. But I react the same way, although it is not an excuse. Thus my arguments are not syllogisms. Are logical as logic goes as a branch from philosophy. Thus happy people live longer, have fewer or recover promptly from illnesses. To me animals are happy calm beings. Nice to have them around, and quite enjoyable . It is a pleasure to communicate with them. Language here is unnecessary.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 10, 2012 at 9:01pm

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Jaime, your 6:01 comment is indeed a kind, charitable, and patient comment, and I appreciate it. (I can't speak for Noga, of course.) I do disagree a bit, as far as sentimentalizing or anthropomorphizing animals. For the most part, they kill and eat each other (or in counter-attack to avoid being eaten) without the intent or consciousness of humans, so perhaps the word "evil" does not apply to animals. My chickens survived the hawk attack a week or so again. When I got home from the gym today, my wife said a hawk had attacked a bird at our bird feeder. The target was probably a dove. (How symbolic is that!) She didn't know if the attack had been successful or not. There are some animals whose behavior is a bit unnerving to humans. I was just watching a couple of videos on YouTube the other night showing cats playing with mice they had caught. Weasels, in particular, seem to exhibit a ferocity and enjoyment of killing beyond their simple need for food. On the other hand, one can find examples of "kind" and "altruistic" behavior in the animal kingdom. For example, the following video shows a crow "adopting" a kitten as if it were baby crow, bringing it food, and playing with it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAGzY9rnaA

- skahn

February 10, 2012 at 10:08pm

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"(I can't speak for Noga, of course.) " Indeed. Why would you? Does Jaime expect you to speak for noga? Do noga or anybody at all expect it? Very strange and boring. I never thought these two adjectives could be used simultaneously.

- noga1

February 11, 2012 at 8:01am

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noga - for your reference links - quite an interesting four hundred year assessment of Persian Shi'a official policy to Jews (not that such history will deter those who still cling to the concept that theocratic Iran is "rational": http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/290715/iran-s-final-solution-israel-andrew-bostom?pg=1 sorry, no jokes to offer (good ones Tristan and irony!), let alone any input about garden slugs except to say they really do love the smell of beer, and may they always slither into a beer trap and then drown.

- K2K

February 11, 2012 at 11:25am

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That looks worth reading Noga -- I'll see if I get to it later today.

- ironyroad

February 11, 2012 at 12:22pm

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We're never going to bring this discussion thread to 200 stupid comments (even with this effort). April is the cruelest month, breeding Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing Memory and desire, stirring Dull roots with spring rain. It's not even April yet, but just this morning as I let the chickens out, I saw the first slug of Spring, I remembered the famous "Far Side" cartoon where a parent yells to family, "Children! Look! The slugs are back!" I predict this will be the final post of this discussion thread. I will now place it into the compost bin.

- skahn

February 11, 2012 at 12:29pm

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I lie. Here's one more post, dedicated to myself. It's (appropriately) a dumb joke. Parents want to have their child accepted to a famous private and exclusive private school [like the one my grandchild attends as a scholarship child admitted for the sake of diversity, and because her birth mommy teaches there]. With great angst and worry they fill out the application form, explaining the excellent skills and potential of their child. Finally, the reach a question that really throws them into a tizzy: "Is your child a leader or a follower?" With heavy hearts, the say to each other, "We better tell the truth here." The circle Follower. A couple of weeks later, they receive a phone call from the school head. He tells them, "I just want to let you know that we have accepted your child, Pat, into our school. After we reviewed the thousands of applications we received, and chose a hundred for the school, we said, 'My goodness, we will have 100 hundred leaders in this year's class. We better accept the application for Pat Smith, so we will have at least one follower for all those leaders." ================================ I don't think there will be any more comments after this, but if there are, please tell me where to go so I can follow you. Sincerely, Stephen Kahn Whidbey Island, Washington

- skahn

February 11, 2012 at 12:39pm

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There's likely to be a short post in which I briefly comment on the article that Noga posted a little ways back, so that will in all probability be post #152 (this one is #151). That said, a separate discussion just may spring (!) up on the meter of the opening lines to The Waste Land' -- the dominant pattern is imo trochaic tetrameter.

- ironyroad

February 11, 2012 at 1:29pm

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C/o a mutual acquaintance, ironyroad: "... here is the most succinct and accurate analysis of the iconic WC williams poem I have yet run across: http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/02/a.html so much depends upon a red wheel barrow glazed with rain water beside the white chickens. Adam Kirsch breaks it down: In his Autobiography (1951), Williams explains that his goal as a writer is to capture the "immediacy" of experience: "It is an identifiable thing, and its characteristic, its chief character is that it is sure, all of a piece and, as I have said, instant and perfect: it comes, it is there, and it vanishes. But I have seen it, clearly. I have seen it." This is just what he does with the wheelbarrow, the rainwater, and the chickens: trivial in themselves, their sheer uninsistent presence strikes the reader as somehow disclosing the very essence of being."

- noga1

February 11, 2012 at 4:11pm

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To recap: " But I have seen it, clearly. I have seen it."

- noga1

February 11, 2012 at 4:13pm

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Syrian general assassinated. http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/11/world/meast/syria-unrest/ On crows Alfred Hitchcock in his interview told dick Cavett about his movie The Birds. The crows were the smartest. The seagulls were dumb and mean. On studying the crows, ravens. there was this in Tokyo Japan. This raven was using the traffic on the street, trying to crack a walnut, the raven put it under the wheel of a stopped car. Once the car started and was gone the raven picked up the cracked walnut. I was watching Australia's open matches. At sometime the lights attract seagulls, well they have a hawk that chase them away. And sometime ago Israel has ponds growing fish. Pelicans cross Israel to go south. These group of pelicans stopped and dived into the ponds to eat the fish. The owners fired guns into the air to scare the pelicans. The pelicans flew away, regrouped and re-attacked. Some people think that owls bring bad luck. Anyhow owls are pretty aggressive. Parrots are very loyal as couples. They get attached to each other for life. If you have only one parrot it becomes very attached to the human owner. this young lady had a parrot. She started dating and brought his boyfriend home, what happened the parrot attacked the boyfriend. In Argentina there are some kind of skinny tall chicken, that can be very noisy when strangers come to the house. They are used to guard instead of dogs. Whistling heron maybe.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 11, 2012 at 4:17pm

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I am carefully following where everyone leads me. I am carefully tending my trap crop. I just attended a Red Cross class, expecting an earthquake, tsunami, or supervolcano eruption, but nothing happened. Wherever you go; whatever you do; be careful; and there you are. I am taking some potting soil home, where to please my wife, I will plant an apple tree. Remember, I THINK that I shall never see/A poem lovely as a tree/A tree whose hungry mouth is prest/Against the sweet earth's flowing breast;/A tree that looks at God all day,/And lifts her leafy arms to pray;/A tree that may in summer wear/A nest of robins in her hair;/upon whose bosom snow has lain;/Who intimately lives with rain./Poems are made by fools like me/ But only God can make a tree.

- skahn

February 11, 2012 at 7:01pm

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Of course, I am an ethical nihilist.

- skahn

February 11, 2012 at 7:02pm

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This week was the Jewish festival of the tree. 'Tu Bishvat" (15 in the month of Shvat). Seeing as this thread has gone the way of trees here is a tree song on the occasion of Tu Bishvat: The pomegranate tree: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs0imNfUw8o&feature=related

- noga1

February 11, 2012 at 9:01pm

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Noga, that is a pretty song. I was exposed to a little Hebrew at the age of ten or so, but none of it stuck. Would you like to provide a little summary or explanation of what the song says, and its significance? Thank you. Stephen

- skahn

February 11, 2012 at 10:06pm

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POMEGRANATE TREE (Etz Harimon) The Pomegranate tree has given its fragrance from the Sea of Salt to Jericho, and your soldier your beloved has returned to his sweet innocent love from wandering. You are the loveliest of brides, your two eyes are like two doves and your voice is like the sound of bells. To you the songs and the flowers, the heros' shields, what's the use of an army of thousands, or ten thousands? My heart is longing with love for you. The arrow returns to the bow, the pomegranate returns to the top of the tree, for you and to you we fighters are longing, come to me, my love , the night is already here. The song was written for Hanna Rovina, the first lady of the Hebrew theatre and the melody is said to be of Turkish source. It uses biblical words and complete phrases from "Shir Hashirim" (The song of Salomon) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanna_Rovina

- noga1

February 12, 2012 at 7:12am

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skahn This may interest you the John Hopkins 2012 publication on how to protect your memory http://www.johnshopkinshealthalerts.com/eletter/profile/7413/78165.html?ET=johnshopkins:p78165:1789790a:&st=pmail&s=PWH_120212_A11

- JAIMECHUCH

February 12, 2012 at 8:47am

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skahn another http://archneur.ama-assn.org/

- JAIMECHUCH

February 12, 2012 at 9:06am

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Noga, Thank you for the information about the song, and about Hanna Rovina. Although there are no specific parallels, perhaps there are some similarities between her and my paternal grandmother, Agnes, who was an early feminist, an early pacifist, and involved as a scriptwriter in the earliest days of the American movie industry (before it moved from New York to Hollywood). In any case, the information you provided is very interesting, and I appreciate your effort.

- skahn

February 12, 2012 at 10:17am

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Jaime, I haven't had a chance to read your comments and links yet. I am going to eat breakfast, and put the chickens out. I will read your comments later today. Take care, and I hope you are well.

- skahn

February 12, 2012 at 10:18am

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Here is Rovina's daughter, Ilana, singing the song that her father, the Russian-Israeli poet, Alexander Penn, had written. She never knew him as a father. Only as the Bohemian who had fathered her and was himself an extremely colourful figure among Israel's artistic milieu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUD_2ERtSzI The song is "Vidui", Confession: My plain coat, a lamppost, on a bridge An autumn night, on my cold lips the rain That’s how you saw me first, remember? And I knew then with the certainty of two and two That bread and water I would be for you And like to bread and water you will always return [-] Yes, it was no good, it was gloriously bad But remember our meeting that night of nights If it happened again let it not be any different The same wretched and indignant love In that tattered coat and that pathetic rosebud In that plainest of dresses If it happened again let it not be any different Let it be so, just so, word for word ...

- noga1

February 12, 2012 at 2:17pm

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Noga -- a very thought-provoking piece on Hitchens, and I hadn't ever considered that aspect of Stephen Dedalus, that he then, after his symbolic adoption by Leopold Bloom, becomes the son of a Jewish mother.

- ironyroad

February 12, 2012 at 2:18pm

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Jaime, as I promised, I came back and examined the links you provided, having to do with memory. One refers to a John Hopkins publication on protecting memory. It costs around $20. While I can come up with twenty bucks, we do have a tight budget, and my wife is planning on spending money on dirt for planting another apple tree. I checked the three libraries where I have accounts, and found many fascinating Johns Hopkins books listed on cancer, including neck, kidney, prostate, brain, etc. as well as other books, including the Technology of Orgasm, but not the book you list. I suppose they will get it eventually, but by then I may forget to check for it. So perhaps, I wonder, would you be willing to purchase it as a birthday present for my wife? Her birthday is in about two weeks, so we might just be able to get it in time! Thanks again, for thinking of me.

- skahn

February 12, 2012 at 2:25pm

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Noga, I just watched the video of Ilana singing. I am sure if I spoke Hebrew my appreciation would be greater, but I did find it moving, and I appreciated your translated text. I as also slightly drawn in by observing one of the accompanists playing flute (as I played flute -- not very well -- for a number of years. I will say (as a general comment) that it now seem quite possible to me that this comment thread may indeed reach 200 comments, and, not only that, these comments have taken a rather cheerful and and positive and amicable tone. However, I will warn everybody that although I am not a violent person, I do have an assertive and argumentative streak in my make up, so I advise everyone to keep a careful eye on me, and try and encourage me to behave in an positive and compatible manner.

- skahn

February 12, 2012 at 2:39pm

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I was always bothered by the widespread opinion that Bloom is considered a Jew even though it is clear that he had converted. Molly, btw, is a Sephardic Jew (like me) who for a while lived in Rehovot when it was just a beginning of a town, a "moshava" as it was used to be referred to. A rural type of a village meant to grow into a city (which it is now). Rehovot was one of the new towns founded in 1890 by middle-class Polish Zionists from the second wave of immigration to pre-Israel Palestine. I lived there for two years before returning to Jerusalem. That little insight about Dedalus being, symbolically, the child of a Jewish mother was quite shocking in its simplicity. No one that I know ever suggested it before. Of course there is no knowing whether Joyce had intended it but then, why did Molly remain Jewish? BTW, I think that in accordance with halachic law, SHE would remain Jewish even if she converted, as far as her child is concerned. As for Hitchens, I have read enough of his work to know that he had some deep and unfathomable feelings for his belated Jewish identity. It evolved over the years so much so that in his last years it would be hard to find the kind of acerbic almost venomous commentary he had once used to make about Jewish organizations and he was even beginning to see Israel with different eyes. We shouldn't forget, though, that Martin Amis who is not Jewish but feels Jewishness in his blood, was a great friend of his and must have some impact in the latter years. All very interesting but ultimately, speculative in nature.

- noga1

February 12, 2012 at 2:42pm

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skahn the book is new for 2012. To. Simplify things your libraries can get it as an. Interlibrary loan. It will be simpler and faster. Subscription to their site is free. They send daily emails with information.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 12, 2012 at 3:50pm

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Noga, that's fascinating about Molly and you -- maybe you should complete the connection by visiting Dublin and taking a walk along the South Circular Road (the traditional Jewish neighborhood, back in the day at least)?

- ironyroad

February 12, 2012 at 4:28pm

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And why would I want to do that?

- noga1

February 12, 2012 at 4:39pm

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I don't know -- the thought just leaped into my mind after you mentioned your Rehovot story. It wasn't quite a thoroughly examined and austerely serious idea. More of a wild notion. Perhaps something about Dublin.

- ironyroad

February 12, 2012 at 5:19pm

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My son dreams of living in Ireland and bringing peace between the Irish and the Israelis. I have no idea where he got that special feeling for the Irish. I think he was terribly touched by their history of suffering. Too bad it is not reciprocated. Which probably accounts for why I have no wish to visit the place.

- noga1

February 12, 2012 at 5:45pm

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Fair enough. I'd say that the Israelis haven't really done a great job telling the alternative story there in Ireland, but certainly a whole slew of uninformed (shading into malicious) assumptions on I/P opens a wide door for the other side.

- ironyroad

February 12, 2012 at 9:16pm

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Funny how memories come. Rehovoth is the Israeli city where the Weizmann Institute of Science resides. I worked there during the summer of 1961. I met the cousin of my cousin that used to work for Chayim Weizmann the chemist that founded the institute. She was good looking and believed that was the reason Weizmann chose her as assistant. Her husband was a famous professor of agriculture in a separate college dedicated to agriculture. I visited for dinner a few months before I got the job at the Weizmann. BTW the director of the Weizmann at that time was Abba Eban the famous Israeli foreign minister that was in between jobs, government wise. He was also a man that spoke many languages, said to have learned in his many plane trips. He was a perfectionists, not popular with the Israeli public since he always demanded they should speak perfect Hebrew. He had been a professor of English. The American Jews loved him dearly. Abba Eban delivered the main speeches at the United Nations during the debates just after Israel declared independence. He was Israel's ambassador to the USA , I believe the first one. Abba Eban used that famous saying " the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity". His wife was from The Jewish community of Egypt. Memories, very pleasant. Rehovoth, Weizmann Institute.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 12, 2012 at 10:12pm

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Here is the obituary of Gunther Plaut the rabbi that defined Reform Judaism. He wrote the Torah in English and Hebrew, he had his commentary and others. When we were members of Beth Emeth the reform temple in Wilmington Delaware, he used to go to Torah class every Saturday morning using Gunther Plaut Torah a Commentary. I was not efficient in Hebrew, Plaut's Torah allowed me to learn what it was all about. My favorite chapter is Genesis. So simple so logic so truthful. Gunther Plaut died at 99 years of age. During his career he defended ageism which is denigrated in our country. You get no respect!! Like that comedian used to say. Sadly Gunther Plaut had Alzheimer's the last ten years of his life. He deserves the most profound of the Kadish, the prayer for the dead, which is a prayer to God and the people of Israel. The name of the deceased is never mentioned. I do after the amen.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 13, 2012 at 12:17am

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Sorry here is the contact http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/world/americas/w-gunther-plaut-rabbi-and-scholar-dies-at-99.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&hpw

- JAIMECHUCH

February 13, 2012 at 12:18am

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skahn "ethical nihilist, I am" According to the Wikipedia a moral nihilist denies morality. In general nihilism denies about everything. Anyhow brought memories to me. Like my oral exam in my philosophy course in junior college in 1953. I was well prepared and answering well. However. The last professor question went like this, if Plato is the father of Ethics, and Aristotle is the father of Logic, I will give you a ten if you tell me who is the father of Ethics. I did not know. The professor said Socrates. He gave me a nine. Socrates if he ever existed, was believed to be a creation of Plato. And just like Jesus, there are no writings of either Jesus nor Socrates. But both are prime examples of Ethics and Justice and Compassion. Socrates was imprisoned for his outspokenness against his country, in Athens Greece. He was condemned to dead by drinking the cicuta, a poison. The last day before, his friends tried to convince him to escape. He refused. He said that he had to obey the law.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 13, 2012 at 12:50am

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Sorry mistake Plato is considered the father of Esthetics.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 13, 2012 at 12:51am

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Arabs ask for a joint peace keeping force for Syria. It is to be Arab and UN. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-12/arab-league-s-el-arabi-calls-for-joint-monitoring-force-with-un-for-syria.html Good idea. But Iran, Russia and China will block it.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 13, 2012 at 12:59am

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"Socrates if he ever existed, was believed to be a creation of Plato." Jaime, it is certainly possible that Socrates in the Platonic dialogues is 60% a fictional character. But in addition to Plato's account, Socrates is both described by Xenophon and appears as a character in Aristophanes' play Clouds (he was a contemporary of Socrates and therefore cannot have been influenced by Plato or Xenophon, who were younger).

- ironyroad

February 13, 2012 at 2:31am

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Here is the first part of a three part youtube: Worth reading. Abba Eban interviewed by Mike Wallace in 1958. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x8l9d3g_8Q

- noga1

February 13, 2012 at 4:34am

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Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dAkLH5Y_mc&feature=related Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5-Te5d-SxM&feature=related

- noga1

February 13, 2012 at 4:50am

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The other hero of Jews http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze'ev_Jabotinsky Zeev Jabotinsky promoted the Jews to arm themselves defend themselves to survive. He is the father figure of the Likud party. Jabotinsky died in 1940 of a heart attack at the age of 60.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 13, 2012 at 9:49am

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A nihilist perceives the universe as random, accidental, and purposeless, and does not detect any external or objective moral values created or delivered by an external force. Bad people such as Hitler, Stalin, and Mao Zedong have been described as nihilists, and described as people who felt and thought, "As there is no reason not to, why not be as wicked and selfish as I want?" As a result, nihilists have received a bad reputation. However, there are many people who do not murder, torture, rape, or steal (values generally accepted as wicked) but who do not find meaning and purpose in the universe and who do not believe in beings that can not be detected by empirical evidence). Although there are many disputes about the details of "what is ethical," for now I will assume that each person reading this is an mostly (if imperfectly) ethical person and I will assert (with no proof I can deliver to you) that I am mostly an ethical person. Thus I fit the definition of a nihilist, and I may fit the description of an ethical person. Thus I call myself an "ethical nihilist." I am pretty sure, though, that I am a piss-poor philosopher. I also note that a much larger percentage of the population go to church/synagogue/mosque/temple/other religious institution/ than go to philosophy classes. A former boss of mine once said to me, "My goal in life is to live until I die." I will add to that, my own twist is that I try to do a little more good than harm in the process. At the moment, my goal is to get this message thread to 200 comments, with most of the comments being interesting, entertaining, amicable and peaceful.

- skahn

February 13, 2012 at 1:29pm

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I just watched the first part of the Mike Wallace interview with Abba Eban. I will try and watch the other two episodes, but my wife wants me to help her with some tasks in our garden. (So completing those tasks, such as pruning a prune plum tree, will come before I finish watching the videos and reading other comments in this thread. [Perhaps this thread can live forever, but I doubt it.]) A couple of other mottoes I try to follow (besides, "do more good than harm") are "live in the present," and "I can't change the past." In terms of the history of the Middle East, not to mention the history of humanity, we can't change the past. All we can do is work in the present to make the future better. Perhaps it is Syria's turn to make their future better?

- skahn

February 13, 2012 at 1:41pm

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I am also a little distracted be hearing about a serious accident (with at least one fatality) on the only bridge connecting our island to the mainland. As someone said once, "No man is an island..." So I am going to check on what happened.

- skahn

February 13, 2012 at 1:43pm

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I am not sure this is of much interest to anyone here, but I have a remote connection to the person involved in the accident. He was a doctor (dermatologist) my wife had once consulted (and not been happy with). He had been in a lot of trouble. He was killed in an accident near (not on) the bridge. The circumstances of the accident might lead to speculations about the accident being a suicide. So, to the perhaps two or three people still reading this thread (and my comment) please be careful.

- skahn

February 13, 2012 at 1:53pm

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I did it. I declare this thread dead. I killed it. Bring me before the International Court of Justice. At least it died peacefully. It was a merciful killing.

- skahn

February 14, 2012 at 9:30am

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Mike Wallace from CBS 60 minutes, now retired, was extreme anti Israel. Why? Just another self hatred Jew. http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=3&x_outlet=13&x_article=1127 Another member of CBS 60 minutes , still around, extreme anti-Israel is Bob Simon. Planting always very biased , dishonest anti-Israel diatribes. When challenged their answer was that they were an opinion news magazine. So, Israel has had, and still has, powerful enemies in the American media. CBS 60 minutes, the New York Times, the late Peter Jennings from ABC, Andrea Mitchell from NBC (wife of Greenspan previous Federal Reserve chief) and MSNBC. In all this time Martin Peretz has been my idol defending Israel against these powerful enemies of The Jewish State. The Reform religious movement were anti -Israel at the beginning but they have now changed. The demonization of Israel has to be confronted. Hard to defeat. I guess this is an example of Jewish ethical nihilism. To me is plain self hatred. I remember how Mike Wallace was brought down to size by the late David Bar Ilan, editor of The Jerusalem Post, also speech writer and advisor to Netanyauh during the 1990's. Mike Wallace gave a conference denying he was anti-Israel, and broke down in tears. Mike Wallace suffered of clinical depression and although cured still was his own self. It is ironic that suffering from clinical depression he was such an aggressive interviewer with powerful vileness . And his son Chris Wallace, from Fox News, is such a nice diplomatic person. I guess mother's genes prevalence.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 14, 2012 at 10:05am

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skahn. To quote Yogi Berra. It ain't over until it is over. I commented after watching the Abba Eban interview by Mike Wallace, btw thank you. And also reading the TNR posting of I F Stone book on the plight of Jewish refugees trying to enter then Palestine just at the end of WWII, and the British blocking their entrance. BTW in one of those UTube videos they describe the vote in 1948 on the admission of Israel to the United Nations. Germany voted no. USSR and USA voted yes. I guess Britain abstained. BTW during this voting Abba Eban suffered a hearth attack, I guess was a mild one. We might still reach the 200 mark. Keep the faith.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 14, 2012 at 10:21am

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"BTW in one of those UTube videos they describe the vote in 1948 on the admission of Israel to the United Nations. Germany voted no." Complete nonsense. Germany (the Federal Republic) was first granted observer status in 1955 and only admitted as a full member of the UN in 1973.

- ironyroad

February 14, 2012 at 12:13pm

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Oh, my. I don't know if you ever watched the Terminator movie, where it looked as if the monster from the future was dead, but then it kept coming back to life again. Apparently, this comment thread looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger, that Austrian rascal. I wonder if the human race will destroy itself by the end of this century, but like the Terminator it might spring back to life and scare all the other creatures on this earth. Once again, I ask: "How can we stand ourselves?"

- skahn

February 14, 2012 at 12:14pm

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ironiroad. You are right here is the UN vote about Israel entry into the UN. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine Germany and Japan were not yet members of the UN. Interesting that Greece voted against. Turkey also voted against but that made sense. Muslim countries did stick together.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 14, 2012 at 12:54pm

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ironyroad Now I. Have the right spelling. Looking at the UN vote to admit/reject Israel in 1949. Cuba voted no, this was before Castro. But my. Eye opening were abstentions of Argentina and Mexico. Argentina was under Peron and had been neutral during the war. Pro German and anti USA. After the war German nazis were taken in. The Jewish population in Argentina was about 250,000, these Jews came prior to WWII from 1900 to 1930's. I believe German nazis were a similar number. It is well known that Adolf Eichmann was captured in Argentina in 1960 or so by the Israelis, put to trial, hanged and his body thrown to the sea. At any rate abstention by Argentina was kind of logic. At one-time I had a conversation with an Argentinian consular officer, he stated it was only normal to treat these enemies equally. I thought to myself if the Jews would have had arms then they would have been equal enemies. The abstention of Mexico is kind wof

- JAIMECHUCH

February 14, 2012 at 1:52pm

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Mexico is a surprise, I'd never have guessed that. There seems to be (apart from Argentina) no rhyme or reason why some Latin American countries voted yes, and others no. The Soviet Union joined the U.S. in voting yes.

- ironyroad

February 14, 2012 at 2:17pm

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The abstention of Mexico? It was 1949, the Mexican president was Miguel Aleman, no relation to Germany (Alemania in Spanish). Pro business pro tourism president. The Jewish community in Mexico at that time amounted to 30,000 (today is about 50,000), there is no German community to talk about. The Jewish community came during the 20's and 30's from eastern Europe Poland, Russia and from Arab countries Syria, Lebanon. They were , and are, doing quite well economically. Why Mexico absteined? Usually they play the role neutrality internationally. Also the Arab Libanese community is quite rich. The present richest man in Mexico and top Forbes billionaire is Carlos Slim a Mexican of Lebanese Christian descent, he is tagged at 25 billion dollars. Some members of the Sephardic communiy are tagged aroun 2 billion dollars , btw they are strong supporters and contributors to the Shas party in Israel. So maybe Miguel Aleman in 1949 wanted to be equally balanced and voted neutral by abstaining. I was 12 years old at that time. My parents, brother and sister came to Mexico in 1934 or so, just in time for me to be born in 1936. Now a US citizen I came in 1962, to pursue my studies marry my Argentinian Jewish bride and have two sons two daughters all Americans. Worked three decades for the largest chemical company in USA. One son one daughter are MD's, one daughter is chem e, matemathician, one son the youngest is business administrators. My wife died in 2005 from ovarian cancer. But before that she was a concert pianist did not pursued. Became a biotechnologyst an at 60 obtained a bachelors in Italian and French. yes Chuchi , her nickname, had many interests from knowing by hard the Jewish and Christian Bibles, to have over 300 plants as hobby. She surely had a green thumb . A Jehovah Witness, that I disagreed, to Bhudist and Jewish. A believer that animals have souls. And completely antagonistic toward animal sacrifices desired by ultra orthodox Jews.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 14, 2012 at 2:32pm

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My goodness. We are close to 200 messages. Imagine this, they let Israel into the League of Nations?! Next they will be telling me that the Jews wrote the Bible! Which reminds me of a joke. An Italian mother and a Jewish mother were bragging about their ethnic heritages, and what people from their groups had accomplished. The Italian mother said, "Just think about how many Italian boys have become Popes! Dozens and dozens and dozens. More Italian boys than any other group! In fact one of MY relatives from about 200 years ago became Pope!" The Jewish mother says, "Well, let me tell you about this Jewish boy, just a kid from the sticks ..."

- skahn

February 14, 2012 at 3:53pm

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skhan. These are the Jackie Mason jokes He is half Italian half Jewish. If he can not get it wholesale he steals it. He is half polish half Jewish. He owns the building but he is also the janitor. He is half German half Jewish. He hates himself but does not know why? Jackie Mason claims he is not biased, prejudiced. But every winter he goes to Puerto Rico to visit his hubcaps.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 14, 2012 at 5:15pm

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skahn This is 200 I get a lollipop. But it was the united nations not the league of nations, the latter was duri Wilson's time.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 14, 2012 at 5:20pm

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skahn This is 200 I get a lollipop. But it was the United Nations not the League of Nations, the latter was during President's Wilson's times.

- JAIMECHUCH

February 14, 2012 at 5:22pm

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You do indeed get a lollipop. You mean the League of Nations is not still around? It was doing so well. And Wilson is not still President? Why didn't anybody tell me? Next, you will tell me that the Jewish people have their own homeland, so they can live in security and peace. My Ukranian Grandma and my Latvian Grandma will be so excited to get the news. They will probably be buying their train tickets next week so they can see the Promised Land with their own eyes.

- skahn

February 14, 2012 at 6:15pm

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