FOREIGN POLICY DECEMBER 4, 2010
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Now that the midterm elections are over and voices of the Tea Party will soon be established in Congress, the movement’s views on foreign policy will come under closer scrutiny, and the results may prove surprising, not least to the Tea Partiers themselves. Those views are far from Republican orthodoxy. On some issues, the Tea Partiers will predictably line up with the Republican leadership, but on others they may find they have more in common with Democrats. They may even provide Barack Obama with unexpected support. Those who think Sarah Palin speaks for the Tea Party on foreign policy haven’t been paying attention.
It’s hard enough to define Tea Party policies on domestic issues. As Kate Zernike writes in Boiling Mad: Inside Tea Party America, the movement “meant different things to different people—even those within the movement could not always agree on what they wanted.” But the Tea Party is the soul of rationality and consistency on domestic issues compared to its stand on foreign policy questions. There is simply no there there. (Click here to view a slideshow of the silliest, scariest, and most NSFW Wikileaks.)
Books on the Tea Partiers, like Zernike’s, barely mention foreign policy, and most of the media are no better in their coverage. A search of the Web turns up little more, an occasional blog post or cursory comment, but nothing of any real substance. Probably the most extensive discussion of the subject was written by P.J. O’Rourke, a humorist. Asked if the Tea Party had a foreign policy, Dick Armey, who has made himself one of the movement’s stalwarts, responded, “I don’t think so.” Analysts of the Tea Party’s foreign policy are therefore working largely in the dark. Still, one can glimpse occasional flickers of light that permit some extrapolations and tentative conclusions.
Take two issues where domestic and foreign policy overlap: immigration and trade. On neither of these questions is the movement in step with Republican Party orthodoxy. With regard to immigration, Tea Partiers often exhibit a hostility that shades into nativism. Remember Sharron Angle’s endorsement of Phoenix’s hard-line sheriff, Joe Arpaio: every state, she said, should have a sheriff like Joe Arpaio. Citing a New York Times poll, Zernike notes that 82 percent of Tea Partiers think illegal immigration is a “very serious” problem, compared to 60 percent of the general public. Yet the corporate sector of the Republican Party has always shown sympathy for increased immigration, and often seems willing to look the other way over illegal immigration. The more immigrants, the greater the competition for jobs, the lower the wage costs for business. Besides, someone has to mow the lawn and look after the kids.
Similar forces are at play in the case of trade. Tea Partiers are suspicious of free trade and globalization in general, because they fear a loss of American jobs. Yet the Republican Party has traditionally been the party of free trade. The Tea Partiers will find their closest allies on this issue among Democrats, especially trade unionists. We just saw what the future politics of trade will look like when President Obama had trouble concluding a free-trade pact with South Korea, originally approved by George W. Bush in 2007. A coalition of Democrats and Tea Partiers inside and outside of Congress opposed it, despite its potential to boost our economy and strengthen crucial alliances in Asia.
In truth, on both immigration and trade, the Tea Partiers are in favor of more government, not less, putting them at odds with Republican Party laissez-faire instincts. However they may feel about the evil of deficits, Tea Partiers are not libertarians. By majorities of almost two-to-one, they support Social Security and Medicare. As Scott Rasmussen and Douglas Schoen write in their book Mad As Hell, “it would be a profound mistake to say that they are an adjunct of the GOP.”
But it’s on questions of America’s role in the world that the divisions between Tea Partiers and standard-issue Republicans begin to look like chasms. The key figures here are the Pauls, Ron and Rand, longtime congressman and recently elected senator, father and son. Ron Paul has been called “the Tea Party’s brain,” its “intellectual godfather”; Rand Paul, by virtue of his election victory, has made himself a powerful, perhaps the most powerful, Tea Party spokesman on the hill.
The Pauls’ positions on foreign policy are not identical, but the links between them are more than genetic. In a recent statement for Foreign Policy magazine, Ron Paul called for an end to “the disastrous wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.” He went on: “We cannot talk about the budget deficit and spiraling domestic spending without looking at the costs of maintaining an American empire of more than 700 military bases in more than 120 foreign countries.” And like father, like son. Rand Paul has said that “part of the reason we are bankrupt as a country is that we are fighting so many foreign wars and have so many military bases around the world.” He opposes what he calls “a blank check for the military.”
These freshly invigorated voices within the Republican Party are already finding common cause with doves inside the Democratic Party. Ron Paul has joined with Barney Frank in calling for the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as from Germany, Japan, and South Korea. “We don’t need to be the world’s policeman,” Paul said, echoing the Vietnam war protesters of an earlier era.
Hawkish Republicans have taken note. Casting a suspicious eye at the Tea Partiers, John McCain has said, “I worry a lot about the rise of protectionism and isolationism in the Republican Party.” There was a truce within the party until the elections, but now, as Richard Viguerie warned, “a massive, almost historic battle for the heart and soul of the Republican Party begins.” Onlookers can expect to hear a great deal of name calling in coming months as charges of “isolationist” and “imperialist” fly back and forth.
At the center of this battle, of course, is Sarah Palin. She has allied herself firmly with the Republican hawks, opposing any cuts in defense spending and generally calling for a more activist and interventionist America throughout the world. She is on record in support of an attack on Iran. To much of the press and the punditocracy, she is the darling of the Tea Partiers, but that’s not how it looks to many inside the movement, and if you want to hear the worst of the vituperation aimed her way, you should look not in the direction of liberals and Democrats, but at the Ron Paul wing of the Tea Party movement. Accused of hijacking the movement for the neoconservatives, she is called “a wolf in sheep’s clothing,” “simplistic,” “senseless and deranged,” “close-minded,” “arrogant,” “a neocon Stepford wife.”
She and Glenn Beck, another hijacker, are “duplicitous and deceiving whores of the global establishment, practiced at fooling well-meaning followers into betraying their own interests.” And maybe worst of all, “just like Obama and the Democrat version of Bush neocons.” (In a complicated political maneuver, Rand Paul sought and Sarah Palin bestowed her endorsement in his Senate race, a move that dismayed both his supporters and opponents; Ron Paul said the endorsement “gave him pause.”)
Unsurprisingly, a considerable amount of the name-calling comes down to Israel. It can’t be said that Palin has taken a strong stand on Israel—a more appropriate characterization would be that she out-Netanyahus Benjamin Netanyahu: “I believe that the Jewish settlements should be allowed to be expanded upon, because that population of Israel is going to grow. More and more Jewish people will be flocking to Israel in the days and weeks and months ahead. And I don’t think that the Obama administration has any right to tell Israel that the Jewish settlements cannot expand.”
Such sentiments win no applause from the Tea Partiers aligned with Ron Paul. He has repeatedly condemned Israeli policies, often in the harshest terms. One of his staffers declared that, “By far the most powerful lobby in Washington of the bad sort is the Israeli government.” Paul’s opponents inside and outside the Tea Party see undertones of anti-Semitism in his positions, or worse, though John Podhoretz, the editor of Commentary, gives him something of a pass: “I’m inclined to think that Paul, who is not the most careful and prudent of speakers, is not an anti-Semite.” But he adds that Paul does follow in a tradition of American isolationism that, in its history, has been “a hotbed of classic and unambiguous anti-Semitism throughout the 20th century.”
One of the odder twists in this intramural debate—and possibly a sign of things to come—was an idea recently floated by Congressman Eric Cantor to remove aid to Israel from the foreign operations budget. It could be seen as a preemptive step to preserve aid to Israel at a time when his party, under the increasing influence of the Tea Party movement, is less sympathetic to foreign aid and defense spending, and less automatically supportive of Israel. The plan went nowhere as influential groups like AIPAC roundly opposed it, and Cantor quickly backtracked. But as the only Jewish Republican congressman, he may have been more sensitive to the drift of the Republican Party than other Jewish leaders.
By the same token, if the president proposes cuts in military spending, there will probably be Tea Partiers ready to support him. If Obama decides to speed up withdrawals from Iraq and Afghanistan, he could find Republican backers for that, too. And most controversial of all, if he attempts to put some distance between the United States and Benjamin Netanyahu’s government, he may discover that as the Tea Party movement extends its sway, his political bedfellows have become stranger and stranger.
Barry Gewen has been an editor at The New York Times Book Review for over 20 years. He has written frequently for The Book Review, as well as for other sections ofThe Times. His essays have also appeared in World Affairs, The American Interest,World Policy Journal, and Dissent.
For more TNR, become a fan on Facebook and follow us on Twitter.
40 comments
The Tea Party more closesly resembles a national fraternity than a cohesive political party. The various college chapters have some resemblence to each other, on occasion have national events in which they voice common interests, perhaps have some loose leadership guidance at the regional level, but each chapter's primary interests, day to day activities, and relative importance are rarely coordinated. And if PJ O'Rourke is going to be doing the seminal work on any of their policies, the anology works even better. As for Palin, I certainly hope the Israelis understand what she's saying when she says that she supports the settlements because "that population of Israel is going to grow. More and more Jewish people will be flocking to Israel in the days and weeks and months ahead." No thinking person should read those words - and understand her reference - without feeling the hair on the back of their neck stand up. Rumsfeld supplementing his presentations to Bush with biblical references is one thing; basing your foreign policy on Revelations on the other hand is downright crazy.
- Tristan
December 4, 2010 at 9:00am
Eric Cantor is the only Republican Jewish Congressman? Now that's an amazing factoid. I reside in the deep south so my perspective of the tea party movement may differ from perspectives elsewhere, but here at least it's almost impossible to distinguish the tea partiers and the "Christians with a world view that is derived almost entirely from their interpretation of the Bible" (avoiding pejorative labels, I will refer to them as solid Christians). Solid Christians are sympathetic to Jews, and Zionists in particular, because they and their historical place fit squarely with their interpretation of the Bible. For Jews, that may seem reassuring. But talk to any solid Christian, or better yet, attend their Sunday service, and you may be surprised that the scripture that receives the most attention is Paul's letters (the letters comprise much of the New Testament and, having been written first, formed the basis for the four Gospels). For those not familiar with the New Testament, it was Paul who built the early "Christian" church, traveling from community to community, establishing a "church" in each, returning from time to time to inspire the following (and, if necessary, impose punishment for those not following Paul's instructions); indeed, for many solid Christians, Paul and the Christian church are indistinguishable. Without doubt, the rapid growth in the "Christian" faith is attributable to Paul (who, paradoxically, never met Jesus and, until his redemption on the road to Damascus, devoted his time to the persecution of the Brothers (as the early "Christians" were called)). But Paul's "ministry" wasn't free of controversy; indeed, he "split" the Brothers by spreading the faith to Gentiles (the Brothers believed Jesus was the Jewish messiah, so the faith was restricted to Jews). Many believe Paul was executed for this sacrilege. This is a very simplistic description, but it makes my point about solid Christians and their "sympathy" for Jews and Zionists. One can never be too careful about who one chooses as friends.
- rayward
December 4, 2010 at 9:21am
Ray - Well spoken
- Tristan
December 4, 2010 at 10:37am
"Solid Christians are sympathetic to Jews, and Zionists in particular, because they and their historical place fit squarely with their interpretation of the Bible. For Jews, that may seem reassuring. " I'm grateful to Tristan for opening my eyes to the self-serving interests that informs some Christians' affection for Israel. But I still would like to enjoy their support for Israel. Here is why: Jews and Christians are both waiting for the Messiah. Jews believe he is yet to arrive for the first time, but tarries. Christians are awaiting the second coming of Jesus, the messiah they recognize as having arrived once but who delays his second arrival. Once he arrives and reveals himself as the true messiah, then the Jews will be persuaded and the end of the world will come. So the bottom line is that both Jews and Christians are waiting for the messiah to come and sort it all out. Until that event happens, I don't see why Jews and Christians cannot continue to be friends.
- noga1
December 4, 2010 at 10:45am
Sorry. The homily about why Jews and Christians should not be friends was delivered by rayward. So, apologies to Tristan for attributing to him the wisdom that should have been credited to another.
- noga1
December 4, 2010 at 10:47am
The article is interesting and the analysis worthwhile but I think it is largely speculative and an unreliable predictor of events. Noga1 - My understanding is that it is inaccurate to say that the Jews are waiting for the Messiah.
- Nusholtz
December 4, 2010 at 11:08am
What would you say then is the accurate way of describing the relationship between Jews and the Messiah?
- noga1
December 4, 2010 at 12:18pm
Noga -- there are Christians and Christians. To be fair, rayward is talking about American evangelical Christianity, one particular branch that has come to embrace one political ideology -- Republican conservatism. And a smaller group within that quite large constituency has a particular, theologically driven interest in the Middle East. I guess I can see the practical benefits of a kind of communication/support relationship between Israel and the evangelicals (e.g. they do stints in the IDF's civilian support groups), but it does seem odd because the very eschatological fervor that pervades the Christianist attitudes and beliefs seems deeply at odds with the Israeli desire to, you know, continue to exist.
- ironyroad
December 4, 2010 at 12:22pm
Noga1- The term waiting generally implies to me some sort of action dependent on a future event and I don't believe that relationship to a Messiah is one of the tenets of Judaism.
- Nusholtz
December 4, 2010 at 12:33pm
"...beliefs seems deeply at odds with the Israeli desire to, you know, continue to exist." Really? Where do you get this impression? I mean, in what way do the beliefs of evangelical Christians put Israel's continued existence at risk?
- noga1
December 4, 2010 at 12:43pm
"I don't believe that relationship to a Messiah is one of the tenets of Judaism." Then you must know more about Judaism than I do.
- noga1
December 4, 2010 at 12:46pm
Noga, I certainly didn't take from Ray that Christians and Jews SHOULDN'T be friends. I do agree that there are some sects of Christianity, please forgive them, who take such an exclusionary attitude towards just about everyone else that one would wonder who would want to be friends with THEM, but that's another story. Christians owe their faith to the Jews. I have never comprehended how it could be understood otherwise. As for waiting on a Messiah, I'm with you, I was under the impression this is a central tenet of Judaism. Perhaps I'm mistaken. Which brings up a question I've always wondered about, for anyone who wants to respond (and please understand, this is asked respectfully, with nothing implied otherwise). My understanding, again, was that Jews, especially orthodox Jews, await the Messiah. I was further under the impression that only the Messiah can bring about the renewal of Israel as a state. How is it , then, that there are ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel? I would think that living there certainly would validate Israel as a state, and that this would contradict the beleif that only God can do that in His own time. This is one of those questions you're afraid to ask for fear of unintentionally offending someone, so my apologies if I've done just that. I am curious, though. Anybody?
- Tristan
December 4, 2010 at 1:07pm
"This is one of those questions you're afraid to ask for fear of unintentionally offending someone" You are quite mistaken. This is exactly the kind of question that most Jews do not find offensive :) It is actually the kind of question that Jews quarrel about all the time and when Jews quarrel, it is done in full daylight and in full view of anyone who is interested. It is also an irrelevant question asked of Israelis for whom Israel is their homeland. It is only relevant for those anti-Zionist Jews who pursue their anti-Zionist agenda all the way Ahmadinejad http://www.hurryupharry.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/kiss.jpg The same fundamentalist Jews who demonstrated against Israel's day in Montreal. When I and my 9 year old daughter walked by, they called out: "pritzes! (whores) and held signs that said: Jews must subjugate themselves to the nations of the world! Secular Jews, which comprise some 85% of Israeli society are either atheist, or agnostic, sceptics, heretics, observant, or traditionally observant or just patriotic with a strong attachment to their history, think wistfully about how great it would be if the Messiah came but are very interested in consolidating the Jewish state, regardless if he ever came or not. That's because most Jews are actually normal people who believe one of the greatest Talmudic tenets articulated by Rabbi Hillel (I think): If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And if not now, when? There is a story about a very pious man who was drowning in a river. He was yelling for God to help him. A boat came by, but the pious man refused to come on board: I believe in God, He will save me. So he drowned and up to meet his Maker. The man complained: I believed in you all my life but when push came to shove, you let me drown. God answered: I sent you a boat, you refused to get into it...
- noga1
December 4, 2010 at 1:42pm
"This is one of those questions you're afraid to ask for fear of unintentionally offending someone" You are quite mistaken. This is exactly the kind of question that most Jews do not find offensive :) http://www.hurryupharry.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/kiss.jpg It is actually the kind of question that Jews quarrel about all the time and when Jews quarrel, it is done in full daylight and in full view of anyone who is interested. It is also an irrelevant question asked of Israelis for whom Israel is their homeland. It is only relevant for those anti-Zionist Jews who pursue their anti-Zionist agenda all the way Ahmadinejad The same fundamentalist Jews who demonstrated against Israel's day in Montreal. When I and my 9 year old daughter walked by, they called out: "pritzes! (whores) and held signs that said: Jews must subjugate themselves to the nations of the world! Secular Jews, which comprise some 85% of Israeli society are either atheist, or agnostic, sceptics, heretics, observant, or traditionally observant or just patriotic with a strong attachment to their history, think wistfully about how great it would be if the Messiah came but are very interested in consolidating the Jewish state, regardless if he ever came or not. That's because most Jews are actually normal people who believe one of the greatest Talmudic tenets articulated by Rabbi Hillel (I think): If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And if not now, when? There is a story about a very pious man who was drowning in a river. He was yelling for God to help him. A boat came by, but the pious man refused to come on board: I believe in God, He will save me. So he drowned and up to meet his Maker. The man complained: I believed in you all my life but when push came to shove, you let me drown. God answered: I sent you a boat, you refused to get into it...
- noga1
December 4, 2010 at 1:44pm
Well, I'll stick my neck out, with the caveat that the following is my opinion and may or may not be 100% accurate:) since all this is complex and may be a matter of opinion in some respects. I think "waiting" implies "not doing anything in the meantime." That certainly doesn't describe Jews. Does this make sense? Further to that - this world is where we live. "Waiting" implies putting life on hold in the meantime doesn't it? Salvation/redemption in a future world and/or as a matter of faith alone are not mainstream Jewish issues. And in fact, a core tenet of Zionism was "the redemption of the Jewish people" through the work - of work, of doing work, farming our own land, and existing in a place where simply being a Jew didn't make one an outsider or a criminal OR a dependent upon the whims of a Gentile prince. Being that the land in question was in Israel and also the very concept of a Jewish nation/people did bring conflict within Jewish religious groups but interestingly, Reform in America for example was more likely to support the idea of Jewish assimilation and identity only as a religion until persecution of Jews in Western Europe became so appallingly bad that people could not ignore it and its implications for basic survival. As far as ultra-Orthodox living in Israel - so do anti-Israel Arab extremists and also people who call themselves "Messianic Jews" ie, Christians who maybe have a Jewish ancestor, not to mention a group of Black Israelites, some of whom apparently think Sephardic, Askenazi, Mizrachi and Yemenite Jews, ie those of us who aren't "black," are not "real" Jews and that they alone share in the covenant with G*d. Note this reflects Christian ideology (replacement covenant) and in fact Black Israelites were originally an offshoot of Christianity - yet - some have found a home in Israel. Plus of course there are a lot of aetheists, Muslims, Christians, Ba'hai etc. living in Israel - as citizens. IMO the presence of all these disparate groups of people in Israel certainly reflects its nature as a state - but I am not sure it matters theologically to anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox Jews nor validates its existence philosophically in their opinion. Thus - their presence in Eretz Israel isn't a matter of belief in the state but rather reflects the fact that the land of Israel is their homeland.
- Sophia
December 4, 2010 at 1:46pm
Noga, because many of the evangelicals hold an end-times belief that involves an apocalyptic war in the Middle East, followed by the conversion of the Jews, followed by a period of paradise on earth, followed by the second coming of Christ. Making a wild guess, I don't think that's how Israelis see the future. I don't assert that all Evangelicals hold those beliefs, I want to emphasize, as there are many Christian Zionist (to use a broad label) individuals and groups with non-eschatological perspectives too. But they can and do make some people uneasy because it's difficult to distinguish the political from the religious aspect.
- ironyroad
December 4, 2010 at 1:48pm
That's no answer to my question, ironyroad. I'm not asking about what is "comfortable" in their beliefs. My question was very specific: In what way do the beliefs of evangelical Christians put Israel's continued existence at risk?
- noga1
December 4, 2010 at 1:52pm
Noga/Sophia - thanks very much, I appreciate the response (as for that picture, I believe the term is "Oy Vey..."). Time to run, a few more presents to buy my beautiful 5 year old, for whom the big philosophical issue right now involves a certain fat man in red. An arched eyebrow on her little face and "Daddy, if Santa knows ALL the kids in the world why did he need to ask my name just now when I sat on his lap?" tells me this particular mystery may be reaching its end. Have a great weekend all....
- Tristan
December 4, 2010 at 2:23pm
Noga1- From your quote, I am not sure if you are claiming: (1) that a belief in a Messiah is a part of Judaism; or (2) that the lives of jewish people are affected by the waiting for a Messiah to arrive so that certain events will take place. I've taken your statement to be the latter, to be incorrect, and, to that extent, your understanding of Judiaism differs from mine.
- Nusholtz
December 4, 2010 at 2:41pm
What quote?
- noga1
December 4, 2010 at 2:59pm
"In what way do the beliefs of evangelical Christians put Israel's continued existence at risk?" Read my first post again. I didn't claim that they did put it at risk. What I said was that there seemed to be an odd and striking discrepency between two visions of the future.
- ironyroad
December 4, 2010 at 3:11pm
ironyroad: You said that "...the Christianist attitudes and beliefs seems deeply at odds with the Israeli desire to, you know, continue to exist." I guess your formulation of the contradiction between Christianist beliefs and "Israeli desire to, you know, continue to exist" confused me. I couldn't quite see how it could provide an argument against friendship between the state of Israel and the evangelicals. It's as if I said that the fact that you haven't gone to confession in so many years is an argument against you and I being friends, because the one is bound for Hell while the other is clearly destined to go to heaven...
- noga1
December 4, 2010 at 5:26pm
Well, our respective final destinations may well be as you say, but I didn't think it was such an obscure or misleading comparison that I had set up: Exhibit A: American Christian evangelicals, theologically driven, believers in end-times, war in Middle East, conversion etc etc. Exhibit B: State of Israel, constitutional democracy, secular society by and large, looking for a peaceful relationship with its neighbors, permanent home for all Jews who want to live there etc etc. I mean, am I missing something here? "Deeply at odds" seems a fairly accurate description.
- ironyroad
December 4, 2010 at 5:55pm
I can't be any clearer on it than I have, ironyroad. With all due respect to evangelicals, do you really think it matters to Israel, as a pluralistic, constitutional democracy and secular society that her supporters and friends enjoy messianic fantasies on their Sundays? You don't seem half as much disturbed by the Islamist visions for Jews in our times. Why are you so bothered by pious Christians working towards an end of days vision about the Jews?
- noga1
December 4, 2010 at 6:47pm
The relationship between American conservative Christians and the state of Israel is like that between a shepherd and his sheep. The shepherd helps fend off wolves, but towards an end that is decidedly not in the best interests of the sheep.
- krlong014
December 4, 2010 at 7:07pm
Here's a good domestic example of how conservative Christians treat their allies of other religions. http://www.texasobserver.org/hotonthetrail/srec-member-i-got-into-politics-to-put-christian-conservatives-into-office This is just a domestic example, not related to foreign policy, so sadly there's no Islamist straw-men around.
- Pnaut
December 4, 2010 at 7:43pm
"The relationship between American conservative Christians and the state of Israel is like that between a shepherd and his sheep. The shepherd helps fend off wolves, but towards an end that is decidedly not in the best interests of the sheep." This sadistic parable does not leave Israel much of a choice, does it? Get torn to pieces by the wolves or end up being slaughtered by man for consumption. Only of course the wolves are howling and hungry NOW, and the sheep... well, it's like the story about the Jew and the poritz: A poritz is the name by which East European Jews referred to gentile landowners on whose land they resided and upon whose benevolence they depended, for the poritz had the power of life and death over them. So the story goes that one day the poritz found a Jew stealing carrots from his vegetable garden. He determined that the Jew should die, to serve as an example to other hungry Jews not to try to steal the poritz’s carrots. The community’s entreaties on behalf of their poor brother fell on deaf ears. You Jews, said the poritz, will never learn unless we teach you a lesson you cannot forget. So the day of the execution the Jew is brought before the poritz to make a final plea. The poritz was mounted on his favourite horse as the Jew, facing him, was trying to think what could possibly dissuade the poritz from carrying out the verdict. And as he watched the poritz fondly caress his horse’s mane, he had an idea. -If you let me live for another year, I can teach your horse to speak, he volunteered. The poritz doubted the Jew’s proposal but he loved his horse so much that he couldn’t bring himself to pass over the possibility that he might actually have a proper conversation with it. And anyway, it was only a postponement, not an annulment of the death sentence. So he agreed to the deal. And let him go. The other Jews, who had come to accompany the convict on his last journey, were dismayed. -What are you doing? How can you teach a horse to speak? -A year, said the now free Jew, is a long time. Anything can happen in a year. I could die. The poritz could die. Or the horse could die.
- noga1
December 4, 2010 at 8:33pm
I don't understand.
- ironyroad
December 5, 2010 at 2:17am
I didn't mean I don't understand the story. I meant I don't understand the argument about the earlier issues. The story of the speaking horse is a pretty good story.
- ironyroad
December 5, 2010 at 2:23am
The story is relevant, ironyroad. I didn't provide it for entertainment purposes. Let me ask you then, do you think Israel should tell these evangelicals who support the state and its struggle against the real, this-worldly forces of darkness to go fuck themselves, as in... we don't need your kind of support, because in your heart of hearts you wish to convert us all? Or because we don't like your theological fantasies? Would that please and satisfy the ethical purity of so-called "liberals"? Whatever happened to the principles of religious pluralism? Do you think Israel should conduct its policies in response to what people harbor in their hearts? Like the Spanish Inquisition? Do you think I worry about the end of times, now? Is it possible that you really don't understand?
- noga1
December 5, 2010 at 7:23am
But I was entertained. Is that bad? Anyhow, entertained enough so that I'll overlook "You don't seem half as much disturbed by the Islamist visions for Jews in our times."
- ironyroad
December 5, 2010 at 7:54am
Why are you up so early on a Sunday morning? I thought you complained somewhere that you were tired and stressed. Anyway, I can see I'm not going to get any glimmer of agreement from you. It's a cast iron principle with you, never deign to agree with noga, especially when she makes sense. If possible, attack from the side. If not possible, make a joke.
- noga1
December 5, 2010 at 8:10am
I've been following this conversation with much interest. For me to properly contribute would require more energy than I have to offer at this time. Perhaps that will change in the next short while. That said, please allow that I believe Noga to have the inside quite probably due to an intimacy with the subject matter and its aspirational adherents wrestling realities. Jews and Christians have a natural affinity, the reality of which is being forced to definition by the Islamic challenge for the future. Throw in all of the ' My Way Relativists ' (which, truth be known, is a very inclusive club) and here we are.
- jacko
December 5, 2010 at 10:11am
I am pleased that my comment spurred a spirited and respectful discussion. As this topic appears to appeal to TNR readers, I suggest TNR consider enlisting one of its best contributors, Garry Wills, to write a piece on the subject. Nobody knows this subject better than Wills, and though he is RC, I believe he would provide an enormous insight, especially for non-Christians, into the minds of solid Christians. While my comment focused on Paul's fateful (for him and "Christians") decision to spread the word of Messiah Jesus to Gentiles, the battle lines created then would erupt within the "Christian" faith 1500 years later with Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation, a battle that simmers today just below the surface for solid Christians.
- rayward
December 5, 2010 at 12:41pm
Does it ever occur to you that I may be looking for a "glimmer of agreement" from you, Noga? I don't set out to provoke dissension, you know. I'm surprised sometimes when I don't even get a "see your point, but" coming back to me. Yes, you spotted one of my bad habits. I went to a party last night. Then I came back home and read and did a bit of TNR-ing and the like. I fell asleep on the sofa and woke up at 7:30.
- ironyroad
December 5, 2010 at 3:21pm
No. it never occurs to me. My assumption is that that you are aware that my agreement is a given, except for the one or two points of dissension that I bring up. That's why I'm always surprised when you complain that I don't notice your main point or something. I guess it is a problem of communication, language being such an imperfect tool most of the time. But of course we will never agree about Obama, unless he surprises me which I don't expect.
- noga1
December 5, 2010 at 4:56pm
Well, no sooner said than done. Here is one Israeli who shares ironyroad's (and to be fair, others') concerns about the undesirability of friendship between Israel and evangelicals: http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?ID=198183&R=R1 "While the fellowship gives millions to Jewish, Muslim and Christian groups in Israel each year, some ultra-Orthodox Jews refuse to take its money, which comes mostly from Evangelicals, on religious grounds. According to Eckstein, Yishai would not even acknowledge the fellowship’s contribution of the eight fire trucks." I sincerely hope Yishai is on his way out. His handling of the emergency services' preparedness to deal with the disaster has earned him the displeasure of many many Israelis. And rightly so. What an utterly irredeemable schmuck.
- noga1
December 6, 2010 at 5:50pm
Noga, check out that other link on the J-Post, the one about Mossad organizing the shark attacks at the Egyptian resort.
- ironyroad
December 7, 2010 at 1:35pm
You mean the shark with the Star of David tattoo? http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__1OzjxCtHZI/TP1TSq307CI/AAAAAAAAEpQ/uckQIMtoHOE/s1600/Sharm+Shark.jpg
- noga1
December 7, 2010 at 8:23pm
Aha, that introduces a new twist. I mean, if the whole thing was so secret, would Mossad have let the shark visit the tattoo parlor before the mission?
- ironyroad
December 7, 2010 at 10:55pm