The New Republic

Amen. This is just shocking.

- wildboy

July 30, 2010 at 4:21pm

Recall [or not] 3 years ago, the ADL fired their New England regional director, Andrew Tarsey, because he stated that the slaughter of 1.5 million Armenians by Turks was a genocide: http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/08/18/adl_local_leader_fired_on_armenian_issue/ I'm sure the ADL is glad to have taken such a strong position to protect our friend Turkey, and I am sure that they will of course continue to do so in the name of truth and consistency.

- rlgordonma

July 30, 2010 at 4:23pm

This is just plain sad. The ADL under the egregious Abe Foxman has become unsupportable. They have thrown in their lot with rightist nutters like Michelle Malkin on the mosque issue. Spencer Ackerman, Martin Peretz's bete noire, wrote an excellent piece in The New Republic a number of years back when he was employed there about how America has done a splendid job of integrating its Muslims, much better than Europe has. Shame on the ADL for being on the wrong side and for adding to the xenophobic hysteria of the nutters.

- liberal reformer

July 30, 2010 at 4:31pm

Inexcusable. Time to refudiate the previously venerable ADL.

- JakeH

July 30, 2010 at 4:44pm

The ADL had the courage to stand up against racism and all manners of bigotry long before it was the politically expedient thing to do. That good work was a great thing, and took a great deal of courage. It would have taken much less courage to either speak up against the current tide of prejudice or at the very least to keep from joining it. Really disappointing.

- miceelf

July 30, 2010 at 4:49pm

Paul Krugman says this: "So let’s try some comparable cases, OK? It causes some people pain to see Jews operating small businesses in non-Jewish neighborhoods; it causes some people pain to see Jews writing for national publications (as I learn from my mailbox most weeks); it causes some people pain to see Jews on the Supreme Court. So would ADL agree that we should ban Jews from these activities, so as to spare these people pain? No? What’s the difference?" Case closed.

- propjoe

July 30, 2010 at 5:24pm

Please let this be Peretz's "Sister Soulja" moment

- Simon Greenwood

July 30, 2010 at 5:55pm

Simon G: you have it exact. I was thinking the same thing, but there are no new posts on the Spine. Maybe he's on vacation.

- propjoe

July 30, 2010 at 6:06pm

It is truly appalling to see the ADL come out in support of bigotry, and especially offensive in this instance. They have pushed the thin edge of a monstrous wedge; it is all too easy to limit the rights of a minority group, especially one whose extremist members have done horrible things, but that will simply make it easier to go on to the next minority group, and then the next, a la the serial persecutions so cleverly and effectively pursued by the Nazis.

- objrussell

July 30, 2010 at 7:43pm

Perhaps the ADL, just like the NAACP, has outlived its usefulness.

- scrubby

July 30, 2010 at 9:01pm

I only wonder to what degree it opposes the construction. Expressing a wish that the builders considered the backlash does not strike me as offensive. Personally I don't see the value of creating a Mosque in an area in such a way as to only increase anti-Muslim resentment. I would not support building German memorials nearby Dachau, even if the intentions are benign. Now I am also not sure how close this is or how big the building is but it does not seem aimed towards any kind of reconciliation between Muslims and non Muslims, instead it seems to show a lack of awareness on the builders fault. Let me add though that I believe that they have a fundamental right to build there, and if they did I would not care except that its effects will only make things worse for Muslims throughout the country. Does America really need the Mosque firebombed in the future, or it to be a site of endless bigoted protests. Anyway, this is my contrarian take on the matter.

- blackton

July 30, 2010 at 9:10pm

Personally, I object to the scale (cut it down to no more than 8 stories) and really object to that exterior facade design on Park Place. Seems like a really good location for a multiplex with affordable housing on the upper floors. New Yorkers do not want Cordoba House in that location. It would be a constant source of irritation which would have the opposite impact intended for years, if not for decades. (It already is!) The ADL did not need to get involved.

- K2K

July 30, 2010 at 9:15pm

K2K, do you have a source for New Yorkers not wanting it? Has there been polling, or is this your impression of the vibe on the street?

- miceelf

July 30, 2010 at 9:33pm

blackton: the building is already functioning as a mosque. photos of current building and proposed facade at this link http://www.realcourage.org/2010/06/nyc-45-park-place/ along with a lot of commentary. I wanted to see why there is a move to give this mid-19th century building landmark status and this has the best pictures. two of my serious interests are NYC architecture and the every-night-is-fight-night-before-you-build-anything-in-my-NYC-Community-Board-neighborhood. The facade motif is out of context in that location - they should have hired Polshek Partnership who designed such a beautiful jewel for Scandinavia House cultural center on Park Avenue bewteen 37th and 38th. 45 Park Place is not where the Cordoba House should build their facility - it's mostly a bit of retail amongst the courthouses, city offices, and offices for lawyers and finance. No one is going to go down there at night for interfaith dialogues or a swim.

- K2K

July 30, 2010 at 9:42pm

miceelf: NYC Community Boards (they are volunteers who get appointed) learned their lesson from the new Yankee Stadium proposal. That CB asked to be involved. Bronx Borough President Adolfo Carrion fired them. Carrion's reward was becoming Obama's WH head for Urban Policy. My neighborhood got the water filtration plant shoved down our throats, and that was the last time I tried to be an involved citizen. Ok, I tried once after that when the park across the street was going to get renovated, and tried to get the Parks Department to NOT put a sitting area for the seniors between the dog run, the soccer field, and the basketball court. This park was once a reservoir, and the seniors like to sit at the top of the bowl, away from the kids who should be allowed to get noisy when they play, Anyway, THAT was the last straw. Top down NYC. So, even though Mayor Mike and CB1 have approved Cordoba House, the fight continues per this sample: http://www.downtownexpress.com/de_377/landmarkshearing.html

- K2K

July 30, 2010 at 9:59pm

sorry - I just wanted to say the ADL had no need to get involved. and, I do not miss the every-night-is-fight-night-before-you-build-anything-in-my-NYC-Community-Board-neighborhood. am having flashbacks!

- K2K

July 30, 2010 at 10:03pm

I think Jon Chait is really overstating the case somewhat here. Obviously the ADL made a poor call on the construction of the mosque (and took an absolutely indefensible stance on the Armenian genocide, which I don't doubt they're now regretting given Turkey's recent behavior), but do we really need a whole new Jewish civil rights organisation, one that does everything the ADL does, other than opposing the construction of a mosque in downtown NYC? Hardly.

- JoshH

July 30, 2010 at 10:35pm

JoshH, yes we do, because, with this stance, they've pissed away their credibility as a defender of civil rights.

- JakeH

July 30, 2010 at 11:22pm

JoshH, Maybe not a new organization, but definitely new leadership. The ADL is a bully pulpit for Abe Foxman's view of the world, and while Mr. Foxman's intentions are for what he perceives are the best for American Jews, they often end up doing more harm than good. Foxman seems to go out of his way to sound foolish on things like the Cordoba Project [in aligning with Palinesque bigots] and the Armenian Genocide. Contrast Foxman's unilateralist view of the world around him with that of Lenny Zakim, the New England regional director of the ADL until his death in 1999. Zakim's biggest and most visible efforts involved getting together with different people, and teaching those people how to combat anti-Semitism in their own communities. This is why there is now a bridge in Boston named after Zakim. In this spirit, perhaps there's a strip mall in Wasilla we could name Foxman Plaza; we could just make sure there's no mosque in it.

- rlgordonma

July 30, 2010 at 11:26pm

Chait is pulling a Breitbart in copying the actual ADL statement from a blogpost instead of a news source and 'careful' editing . The ADL statement also says: “The controversy which has emerged regarding the building of an Islamic Center at this location is counterproductive to the healing process. Therefore, under these unique circumstances, we believe the City of New York would be better served if an alternative location could be found. ... In recommending that a different location be found for the Islamic Center, we are mindful that some legitimate questions have been raised about who is providing the funding to build it, and what connections, if any, its leaders might have with groups whose ideologies stand in contradiction to our shared values...These questions deserve a response, and we hope those backing the project will be transparent and forthcoming. But regardless of how they respond, the issue at stake is a broader one.” http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/07/30/2740284/adl-opposes-world-trade-center-mosque from the JPost: "...Sharif El-Gamal, the CEO of SoHo Properties, has said the project's backers [currently in Malaysia] were committed to transparency and would work with the attorney general's watchdog Charities Bureau. The planned center has been renamed Park51 to reflect the broad scope of its programs, modeled on the YMCA or Jewish Community Center of Manhattan. ...In a phone interview, [Foxman] he compared the idea of a mosque near ground zero to the Roman Catholic Carmelite nuns who had a convent at the Auschwitz death camp. In 1993, Pope John Paul II responded to Jewish protests by ordering the nuns to move. "We're saying if your purpose is to heal differences, it's the wrong place," Foxman said of the mosque. "Don't do it. The symbolism is wrong." " http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=183178 Chait should stop provoking for the sake of provoking (must be the pressure coming from the folks at Commentary). 45 Park Place is a stupid location for a cultural center or place of sectarian worship of any kind. Maybe in another 35 years...which is about how long it took for Americans to stop hating the Japanese for Pearl Harbor... but until that location becomes a place for evening pursuits with a real neighborhood of people living there, this location is provocative.

- K2K

July 31, 2010 at 1:03am

It is extremely insensitive of Muslims to promote a prominent mosque near the site of the World Center attack. They have never apologized for the multiple atrocities in America on Sept 11, 2001. Many of them continue to celebrate the attacks. They see the mosque as another way to memorialize their violent act of aggression against non-Muslims. They frequently build triumphal mosques on top of the sacred sites of their victims. Vide the Babri Masjid mosque in India, the mosques on top of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, Hagia Sophia (expropriated Byzantine church) in Istanbul, etc. That said, it is not the role of the ADL to jump into this controversy because they are cast as a liberal civil rights group and opposition to the mosque is too much of a stretch. There is a vacuum in Jewish community leadership in NYC (of all places!) and it should be filled by some other person or group. Jewish Americans, like other Americans, have a right to oppose this egregious project. Chait said, "Maybe it's time to start a new Jewish civil rights organization." He obviously doesn't know about the still-competitive world of Jewish civil rights organizations. ADL is a great organization that sometimes errs. But there are already others.

- amidut

July 31, 2010 at 6:28am

the mosque is intended to celebrate the 9/11 attacks?? really? cmon.

- miceelf

July 31, 2010 at 9:31am

amidut, "It is extremely insensitive of Muslims to promote a prominent mosque near the site of the World Center attack. They have never apologized for the multiple atrocities in America on Sept 11, 2001." That's a broad brush with which to paint a billion people. Which Muslims are supposed to offer this apology you seek? The problem is that in assume that such a large group of people is a monolith, your statement reeks of bigotry. You don't need to imagine your reaction when some bigot demands that the Jews have to apologize for Israel's actions, or their advocacy of Israel. That sort of horrific statement is of the same nature as what you just said.

- rlgordonma

July 31, 2010 at 9:38am

k2k, thanks for that part about the Carmelite nuns, I had that in mind but couldn't remember the details since it was so long ago and I agreed with the Popes decision, even though the Church did not commit the holocaust and indeed many Catholics died during it, it would have been grossly insensitive to build the nunnery there. If reconciliation and understanding is the goal, this ain't it. Again, let me point out that they are under no obligation to look for reconciliation and understanding either, and I still think they have the right to renovate there, I just wish they had chosen a different place.

- blackton

July 31, 2010 at 10:24am

Should we really be letting any Muslims strut around Ground Zero, all triumphant like they own the place? Seems mighty dangerous to me, whether or not they manage to get a mosque built. It can really hurt people's feelings, and it makes Osama laugh his ass off. What's worse, an alert American might walk right past a Muslim silently celebrating mass murder and never even know it. They're not all swarthy, you know (part of their dastardly attempt to fit into American society so they can undermine it). A solution might be to require Muslims to wear identifying marks on their clothing - a star and crescent moon ought to do the trick. (If any Americans are unaware of the symbolism, we can put advertisements on buses that tell folks what the badges mean.) If someone with a badge gets near the exclusion zone, any citizen can - politely, of course - tell them to head the other way. The alert citizen could also demand an apology from the badge-wearer. It might be helpful if the alert citizen then posted the apologetic Muslim's name on a website or something, so we can keep a running tab of how many Muslims regret 9/11 and how many think it didn't go far enough. Of course, the big problem with this is that many people will say they're sorry when they're really not, so it might be better just to list the names of the Exclusion Zone violators and then fair-minded citizens can decide for themselves which apologies are likely to be sincere and which aren't. You'll note that under my proposal, any citizen wishing to enforce the Mosque Exclusion Zone must do so politely, without any threat of violence. So please don't get all bleeding heart and politically correct and moan about potential for violence and other distractions. Because citizens are enjoined to act politely, any violence would have to be the result of Muslim provocation, and Americans aren't violent people anyway, so I think we know who's going to be at fault even before the recriminations fly. History is littered with the corpses of people who made decent people uncomfortable. The politically correct response has been to tell those decent people that their discomfort was their fault - that they should learn to "tolerate" people they despise instead of killing them. Well, bigots need tolerance too. How about letting them have their way, just like in the old days?

- Geoff G

July 31, 2010 at 10:43am

As a teenager more than 50 years ago, my folks bought Israel Bonds and were members of the temple brotherhood and sisterhood and Bnai Brith, among other Jewish organizations. They donated as well to the BB's child, the Anti-Defamation League--I received a gift membership for my Bar Mitzvah. I renewed sporadically until I became a successful professional, when the ADL became the only Jewish organization I regularly gave to. I was proud of the organization, defending all as the only realistic long-term way to protect our long-oppressed, discriminated against, and murdered people. I gave generously and wrote them into my will. Then Abe Foxman came along. At first the courtship of the right was sporadic, then it became a love affair with George Bush and his Neo-Con allies. During the Obama campaign, I was rather shocked to see the ADL functioning to all intents and purposes as an adjunct of Faux and Drudge, propagandists and vicious liars. That was the end for me. Foxman has destroyed the ADL as a widely-respected truth-telling American organization. For those of us who loved this organization for standing up for the civil rights and dignity of all Americans even at its own peril, it has died. This is sad for me, sad for "The Jews", and sad for America.

- bufatutu

July 31, 2010 at 11:26am

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is the founder of the Cordoba Initiative, which has offices in New York and Kuala Lampur, Malaysia. One may want to question his motives for choosing this location at 45 Park Place, only 600 feet from Ground Zero, as several "leading Muslim moderates — Muslims known for their commitment to tolerance and pluralism, and for their opposition to all forms of radical Islam" are questioning in the Boston Globe citation below. Also, when did Imam Faisal ever publicly challenge anything said in Malaysia about radical Islam, suicide bombers, or Malaysian vitriol on Israel? But, first, on September 30, 2001, he was interviewed on 60 Minutes, "...[Ed]Bradley: And throughout the Muslim world, there is also strong opposition to America's foreign policy, particularly in the Middle East because of its support of Israel and economic sanctions against Iraq. [Imam]Faisal: it is a reaction against the US government politically, where we espouse principles of democracy and human rights, and where we ally ourselves with oppressive regimes in many of these countries. Bradley: Are you in any way suggesting that we in the United States deserved what happened? Faisal: I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but united states policies were an accessory to the crime that happened. Bradley: You say that we're an accessory? How? Faisal: Because we have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA. ..." from the transcript at http://www.islamfortoday.com/60minutes.htm Here is the full text of an op-ed, where Jeff Jacoby mostly interviewed "...the views of leading Muslim moderates — Muslims known for their commitment to tolerance and pluralism, and for their opposition to all forms of radical Islam...." "A mosque at ground zero? By Jeff Jacoby [Boston] Globe Columnist / June 6, 2010 IS GROUND ZERO the right place for a major new mosque and Islamic cultural center? Cordoba House is a 15-story, $100 million development to be built just 600 feet from where the World Trade Center stood; the plans include the mosque, a 500-seat auditorium, swimming pool, restaurant, and bookstore. The prospect of an Islamic center so close to ground zero is, not surprisingly, controversial. Many relatives of Sept. 11 victims are strongly opposed. One group, 9/11 Families for a Safe & Strong America, calls Cordoba House “a gross insult to the memory of those who were killed on that terrible day.’’ But the project also has strong political support. New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer are among its backers, and Cordoba House was endorsed by lower Manhattan’s Community Board No. 1 in a near-unanimous vote last month. Of particular interest are the views of leading Muslim moderates — Muslims known for their commitment to tolerance and pluralism, and for their opposition to all forms of radical Islam. One such individual is Zuhdi Jasser, a physician, US Navy veteran, and founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy. Jasser reminisced last week about his family’s history of building mosques in the heartland communities where they lived. His parents, Syrian immigrants to the United States, helped create the Fox Valley Islamic Center in Neenah, Wis., in 1980. “This was during the Iranian hostage crisis,’’ he recalled, “and some of the local residents wanted the Zoning Commission to prevent the mosque from going forward.’’ But the commissioners gave their blessing to the project, and the modest mosque — the construction budget was just $80,000 — became part of the neighborhood. Later the family later moved to western Arkansas, where they joined with others to create the Islamic Center of Fort Smith. As recently as March, Jasser came out in support of Muslims in Sheboygan, Wis., whose plans for a new place of worship were meeting with vocal resistance. But he adamantly opposes the ground zero mosque. “For us, a mosque was always a place to pray, to be together on holidays — not a way to make an ostentatious architectural statement,’’ Jasser said. “Ground zero shouldn’t be about promoting Islam. It’s the place where war was declared on us as Americans.’’ To use that space for Muslim outreach, he argues, is “the worst form of misjudgment.’’ Equally opposed is Stephen Suleyman Schwartz, a devout Muslim and director of the Center for Islamic Pluralism in Washington. Schwartz notes that the spiritual leader of the Cordoba Initiative, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, describes himself as a Sufi — a Muslim focused on Islamic mysticism and spiritual wisdom. But “building a 15-story Islamic center at ground zero isn’t something a Sufi would do,’’ according to Schwartz, also a practitioner of Sufism. “Sufism is supposed to be based on sensitivity toward others,’’ yet Cordoba House comes across as “grossly insensitive.’’ He rejects Rauf’s stance that a highly visible Muslim presence at ground zero is the way to make a statement opposing what happened on 9/11. Better, in his view, is the approach of many Muslims “who hate terrorism and who have gone privately to the site and recited prayers for the dead silently and unperceived by others.’’ Ali al-Ahmed, a Saudi native who founded the Institute for Gulf Affairs and is an advocate for civil rights and religious freedom in the Middle East, hopes for the best from Cordoba House. “A mosque should be a good thing,’’ he told me. But he worries about the number of Americans who may be “hurt and upset’’ by the project, and wonders whether a mosque is really the best thing for Muslims to build so close to ground zero. Why not something less emotionally charged, he asks — a social-service agency, perhaps, or an assisted living center for the elderly? Muslims must take the feelings of Americans into account, Ahmed contends. He cites no less an Islamic authority than the Imam Ali, Mohammed’s influential son-in-law. “Reconciliation of your differences,’’ says Imam Ali in the collection of teachings known as the Peak of Eloquence, “is more worthy than all prayers and fasting.’’ Will a mosque at ground zero make reconciliation more likely? Or will it needlessly rub salt in the unhealed wounds of 9/11?" © Copyright 2010 Globe Newspaper Company. copied from http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/06/06/a_mosque_at_ground_zero/

- K2K

July 31, 2010 at 11:30am

The ADL did not "lose its bearings". The ADL sparked a real debate, and, probably a real issue in the New York gubernatorial race. Will Attorney General (and Democratic nominee for governor) Andrew Cuomo actually investigate the sources of Imam Faisal's Cordoba House funding, estimated at $100million? Long Island Congressman Peter King, r, is calling for an investigation, but that has to be done at the state level. I await the REAL debate - over the architectural design and scale of the proposed building. Calling on Ada Louise Huxtable! "the continuing barrage fired from [her] Sunday column... had New York developers, politicians, and bureaucrats, ducking for years." Costonis, John J (1989). Icons and Aliens. University of Illinois Press. p. 53.

- K2K

July 31, 2010 at 11:56am

First, a paragraph from Adam Kirsch's review of Alan Steinweis's study of Kristallnacht, in the 11-12-09 TNR, then, a passage from a history book written 20 years from now. To Grynszpan, then, the shooting of vom Rath was intended to make a clear political statement: it was an act of Jewish revenge against the Nazis. Ironically, the Nazis were only too glad to take that explanation at face value. It allowed them to make the ineffectual lashing-out of a helpless refugee sound like a strategic offensive in the war between Germany and “international Jewry.” At around 9:30 p.m., Steinweis shows in his meticulous reconstruction, the German News Agency--an arm of Goebbels’s Propaganda Ministry--sent a memo to the nation’s newspapers, instructing them on how to report the crime. “Not only was the guilt of ‘international Jewry’ obvious,” Steinweis writes, “but so was its motive: ‘the extermination of National Socialist Germany.’” And if the Jews were collectively responsible for Grynszpan’s action, then “it would be ‘right and proper’ if ‘Jewry in Germany were to be called to account for the shooting in the Paris embassy.’” It is a characteristic example of the diabolical logic of Nazi anti-Semitism: the Nazis victimized German Jews, and if Jews abroad protested, it was proof of the international conspiracy that justified the victimization in the first place. To Osama bin Laden, 9/11 was intended to make a clear political statement: it was an act of Muslim revenge against the US. The response of the American president at the time, George W. Bush, was to cast Osama's act, not as an outgrowth of Islam, which Bush acknowledged was a peaceful religion, but as mass murder of innocents (some of whom were Muslim) wholly at odds with Islam as it is understood and practiced by the vast majority of its adherents. Bush's words were effective in quieting much anti-Muslim sentiment in the US, even as the US embarked on wars to roust Osama from his safe haven in Afghanistan, and topple Saddam Hussein's murderous dictatorship. Some conservatives were unable to withstand the temptation to scapegoat Muslims, despite the president's urging. While most conservatives are decent people who believe in human rights for all, there have always been people who call themselves conservative who are more than willing to demonize the Other for political gain, whether that Other is black, Jewish, Muslim, foreign or simply "un-American" - a catch-all phrase that encompasses everyone uncomfortable with bigotry, and includes those with the temerity to question the US's actions when it is led by a Republican president. When Bush left office, the nastier elements of conservatism grew louder. Not only was the new president a Democrat, which was bad enough, he was black and descended from Muslims (and his mother drove a VW bug, signifying her hatred of America). The president was the Other! If you demonize Islam, you demonize him! If he preaches tolerance, then advocating intolerance is a way to bring him down. Sure, there might be some collateral damage - maybe some decent Muslims will be hurt, maybe some will begin to believe that they ought to hate America - but if it brings down Obama, it will be worth it. The culture war generals were looking for a good way to score points against the socialist-secular radical president, and noticed that Muslims were building a cultural center and mosque that could be described as "close to Ground Zero." They decided to claim that the center was intended to send a message: it was an act of Muslim triumphalism over 9/11. The building was a strategic offensive in the war between the US and "radical Islam.” The generals put the culture war apparatus into full gear, instructing their followers how to view the construction of the cultural center: “Not only was the guilt of ‘radical Islam’ obvious,” “but so was its motive: ‘the extermination of the United States of America and establishment of an Islamic caliphate.’” And if the Muslims were collectively responsible for Osama's action, then “it would be ‘right and proper’ if ‘Muslims in the US and around the world were to be called to account for the destruction of the Twin Towers. It is a characteristic example of the diabolical logic of American anti-Muslim bigotry: the Americans victimized Muslims, and if Muslims abroad protested, it was proof of the international conspiracy that justified the victimization in the first place.

- Geoff G

July 31, 2010 at 12:45pm

rlgordonma: "Recall [or not] 3 years ago, the ADL fired their New England regional director, Andrew Tarsey, because he stated that the slaughter of 1.5 million Armenians by Turks was a genocide: http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/08/18/adl_local_leader_fi... I'm sure the ADL is glad to have taken such a strong position to protect our friend Turkey, and I am sure that they will of course continue to do so in the name of truth and consistency." I wonder no one in this 30 comment long already thread did not see fit to set the record straight on this deliberately misleading report of the controversy: "The national director of the Anti-Defamation League bowed to pressure from both the Jewish and Armenian-American communities yesterday and officially acknowledged the genocide of Armenians at the hands of Ottoman Turks more than 90 years ago. In doing so, Abraham H. Foxman reversed years of ADL policy and a position he had reaffirmed as recently as Friday when he fired the ADL's New England regional director, Andrew H. Tarsy, for defying the national organization and acknowledging the genocide. "We have never negated but have always described the painful events of 1915-1918 perpetrated by the Ottoman Empire against Armenians as massacres and atrocities," Foxman said in a written statement yesterday. But upon reflection, Foxman continued, "the consequences of those actions were indeed tantamount to genocide." In an interview with the Globe, Foxman said that for some time he has privately believed that the mass killings constituted a genocide, but thought that describing them as atrocities or massacres was enough. Yesterday, he said, he realized this description was dividing the Jewish community and the ADL changed its position." http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/08/22/adl_chief_bows_to_critics/ http://mickhartley.typepad.com/blog/2007/08/the-adl-and-arm.html

- noga1

July 31, 2010 at 3:14pm

thanks noga, for correcting the record on Foxman/ADL on the Armenian massacre-genocide. still will not stop the witch-hunt here and, in the media, of Foxman and ADL on the proposed mosque at 45 Park Place. The pile-on is so partisan that the questions about Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, and his funding, are being almost totally ignored by the 'liberal' media, as is the ADL statement which thought it was the wrong location. You can see the split in the comment thread here: http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2010/07/31/nyregion/31mosque.html

- K2K

July 31, 2010 at 4:28pm

It's truly amazing, as K2K points out, how the ADL, not the proposed mosque, has become the issue. Too many liberals refuse to see how the mosque is a calculated affront to the citizens of the New York region who endured 3000 deaths and $50 billion (probably more) damage to their economy, not to mention the assault on the Pentagon and the plane crash in western Pennsylvania. That is a normal part of Islam, which is always focused on war against non-believers. Section 9:29 asks Muslims to not only humiliate the dhimmi, but also to make him feel humiliated. We see the failure of the liberal imagination to enter into the mind of Islam, the lack of curiosity. Islam is the enemy of liberalism. Are we supposed to commit moral suicide? I remember the smoke billowing out of Ground Zero for nearly 3 months, the streets being hosed down thru the Fall and Winter, the frantic efforts of people to locate their loved ones, all the protestations of United We Stand, and more. I also remember that I was sitting in a plane on the ground at Newark Airport at 9:30 am 9/11, waiting to take off when the flight was canceled because the twin towers, visible in the distance on that clear day, had just been attacked. My plane could have been one of those hijacked airliners.

- amidut

July 31, 2010 at 5:00pm

Section 9:29 of the Koran, that is.

- amidut

July 31, 2010 at 5:02pm

amidut: "the ADL, not the proposed mosque, has become the issue." so far only with everyone to the left of, and including, Jeffrey Goldberg. Amazing how so many of these bloggers are doing exactly what Chait did, citing the conclusion of the ADL statement. Anyone who remembers the construction of a persuasive essay knows that, usually, one of the developed points in support of the conclusion becomes the "key passage". THIS is the key passage in my eyes: "The controversy which has emerged regarding the building of an Islamic Center at this location is counterproductive to the healing process. Therefore, under these unique circumstances, we believe the City of New York would be better served if an alternative location could be found." The bloggers to the right of Goldblog seem more focussed on researching Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and the Cordoba Initiative, and his source of funding. He is apparently not taking any calls while he is in Malaysia.

- K2K

July 31, 2010 at 5:26pm

I wonder whether the name of the project "The Cordoba Mosque" has anything to do with the Cordoba Mosque of Al-Andalus, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mosque_of_C%C3%B3rdoba the jewel in the crown of the Umayyad dynasty of Córdoba. "The Mezquita dates back to the 10th century when Córdoba reached its zenith under a new emir, Abd ar-Rahman 111 who was one of the great rulers of Islamic history. At this time Córdoba was the largest, most prosperous cities of Europe, outshining Byzantium and Baghdad in science, culture and the arts. The development of the Great Mosque paralleled these new heights of splendour. " http://www.andalucia.com/cities/cordoba/mosque.htm More recent controversies: "Spanish guards, employed by the Roman Catholic bishop, harshly reacted to Muslims, who wanted to pray at the world-famous Cordoba mosque. Two Muslims were arrested when the visitors knelt to pray in the building, a former mosque turned into a Christian cathedral in the 13th century, Guardian reported. A local bishop, Demetrio Fernández, recently insisted that a ban on Muslim prayers must remain. Half a dozen members of a group of more than 100 Muslims from Austria has started praying among the marble columns and coloured arches of the vast building. But security guards ordered them to stop. Cathedral authorities said the guards had invited the visitors to continue viewing the inside of a 24,000 sq metre building that was once the world's second biggest mosque, but without praying. Local newspapers reported that a dozen police officers had been called into the building. A group of local Muslim converts have long demanded for the right to pray at the mosque building. "The building is very big and the main cathedral occupies only a part of it," said Mansur Escudero of the Junta Islamica group. "They publicise the building as a mosque because that brings in tourists, but they do not allow the Muslims who pay money to go inside to pray," he said." http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=56424 ( BTW, if Muslims demand to be allowed to pray at a location formerly designated as a sacred place, does it not follow that Muslims should set an example for tolerance and religious peaceful co-existence by allowing Jews to visit and pray at Al-Aqsa mosque, located on top of the site that used to be the Jewish Temple??)

- noga1

July 31, 2010 at 5:33pm

"the ADL, not the proposed mosque, has become the issue." On a much smaller and more local scale, this shift in focus reminds me how, when I recounted here an experience of an incident ( where I and my 8 year old daughter) being called whores by anti-Zionist Satmar Jews, I became the target of some of the posters' bile for telling the story and drawing attention to the kind of minds that produce these provocations. http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-spine/76124/which-side-are-you

- noga1

July 31, 2010 at 5:52pm

when there is a violence free Islam, there can be some new mosques in some less visible places.... until then, teach all Muslim kids Kant, Descart, Peter Singer...

- sf4200

July 31, 2010 at 6:29pm

anyone who reads the thread that noga linked will have trouble recognizing in it her characterization. As for the debate, well, some opponents early on defined it in tones very similar to those on display here by amidut and sf4200. It was not a careful consideration of the implications and the sources of money. It was an opportunity to jump on a vulnerable minority. I highly doubt that Newt Gingrich was motivated by (nor Sarah Palin capable of) the sophisticated reasoning on display by K2K and others here. People will naturally react against the hatemongering and not get into the level of detail of other objections. As the ADL acknowledged, a significant driver of the outcry was bigotry, pure and simple. Its unclear why they went further in their declaration than that.

- miceelf

July 31, 2010 at 7:06pm

"will have trouble recognizing"? Really? Your own response is symptomatic of the very perversion I pointed to. Understandably so, considering the level of your ace-argument in the he Obama in the View thread: "In all seriousness, noga, do you have aspberger's syndrome?" http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-chait/76653/review-obama-%E2%80%98the-view%E2%80%99

- noga1

July 31, 2010 at 7:59pm

noga: the building name was changed from Cordoba House to Park51 after the June 6 "Stop the Mega-Mosque Protest at Ground Zero". A big banner explains "Why Cordoba? Cordoba is place in Spain where first Islamic Caliphate was established in the West. It is symbol of conquest of the West" samples of signs from a Google image search of "protests mosque Ground Zero": "Mosques in New York: 200. Synagogues, Churches in Mecca: 0. Muslims and Liberals Demand Tolerance. Start with Mecca" "India Since 9/11: Radical Islam: Killed: 4298. Injured: 9835" "Honor 3000. 9/11. No Mosque" "You Can Build a Mosque at Ground Zero when we Can Build a Synagogue in Mecca" "Show True Tolerance. Build Churches in Saudia Arabia" The June 6 protest had many speakers. all of the videos can be seen at http://nomosquesatgroundzero.wordpress.com/2010/06/07/report-video-from-no-mosque-at-ground-zero-rally/ I wish I could watch "Two Coptic Christian human rights activists, Nabil Asaad and Dr. Esmat Zaklama, talk about the horrors of living in a country ruled by Sharia Law." It would appear the ADL statement got partisanized because Abe Foxman and the ADL agree with Sarah Palin and New Gingrich, and a lot of New York Republican candidates. As a NYC voter, I find it somewhat ironic that this issue could rouse the 50% of voters who stayed home in 2008 to come out and vote, and not the fact that the state of NY has the most dysfunctional government in America with polls consistently saying that a majority of New Yorkers want to throw out all incumbents in Albany and start over. I do not agree that all of them should be thrown out. There is something wrong with the New York state constitution that enables the dysfunction. I am starting to wonder if Chuck Schumer is as invulnerable as he thinks. The New Yorker's Jeffrey Toobin did Schumer no favor in the last issue.

- K2K

July 31, 2010 at 8:01pm

"the building name was changed from Cordoba House to Park51" “From the very beginning, we’ve wanted this to be a transparent and responsive process,” says Sharif El-Gamal, CEO of Soho Properties, a private real estate developer in Manhattan. “We want New Yorkers to know we are building this institution for all of us.” Park51 intends to establish a friendly, inviting institution that serves all New Yorkers. To improve outreach, increase programmatic capacity and create synergies with like-minded institutions and individuals, Cordoba House will serve as a dedicated interfaith center within Park51." free-press-release.com/news-announcing-park51-a-community-center-for-all-new-york-1279042015.html

- noga1

July 31, 2010 at 8:12pm

noga: " Cordoba House will serve as a dedicated interfaith center within Park51" what does that mean? Sunni and Shi'a? Hindu temple? Buddhist shrines? Russian icons? miceelf: " I highly doubt that Newt Gingrich was motivated by (nor Sarah Palin capable of) the sophisticated reasoning on display by K2K and others here." Thanks, but I suspect Gingrich and Palin already know what I just discovered by following the link from the URL of the June 6 protest to perdana4peace.org, and this, about the intentions of Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the chair of the Cordoba Initiative. "Rauf is a key member in the Malaysian-based Perdana Global Peace Organization, the single biggest donor ($366,000 as of June 2010) to the Free Gaza Movement." [proof is his page at perdana4peace.org] "In July 2010, journalist Andrew McCarthy revealed that "What's Right with Islam" was originally published in Malaysia under a different title: "A Call to Prayer from the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Dawa in the Heart of America Post-9/11". What's Right with Islam" [I can not prove this] Both quotes are from discoverthenetworks.org, a guide to the radical left, which is whyI tried to verify both statements. It would be useful to question what "Islamic Dawa in the Heart of America Post-9/11" means (Dawa is proselytizing all aspects of Islam), and who is funding this project. BTW, the perdana4peace.org homepage has a link to their Gaza press release that no longer works. I guess this dialog is now transitioning to the new post by Chotiner, but want to cross-post this: otoh, any attempt to proselytize the Islamic system of finance from 45 Park Place could win the war on terror. See what happens when you try to convert Wall Street bond traders on their turf, that interest on loans is un-Islamic :)

- K2K

July 31, 2010 at 9:39pm

Abe Foxman's only mistake was in characterizing the loved ones of the 9/11 victims as "irrational or bigoted" to the New York Times. K2K draws an analogy that merits further examination: Pearl Harbor. When Japan launched its assault on the United States, its state religion was Shinto, derived from Japanese traditions dating from before the time of the Qur'an. The Japanese even regarded Emperor Hirohito as a deity, his divine authority inscribed in their 1889 constitution. Now let's say a group of unnamed Japanese interests proposed building a Shinto temple near the USS Arizona Memorial. Even if they disavowed the State Shinto of Imperial Japan, how do you think that would have played in 1950? Where do you draw the line with the freedom to practice one's religion? The United States did not acquiesce in WWII out of respect for Japan's religious beliefs. The proposed Cordoba House shows gross insensitivity to New Yorkers, who are STILL COPING with 9/11. The project's representatives are lying to our faces and we are too afraid to admit it, even to ourselves.

- drheingold

July 31, 2010 at 11:45pm

thanks drheingold, but I should have done my usual research, because I forgot that there was a sizeable Japanese immigrant community living in Hawaii since before 1915, and, of course, there were pre-existing Shinto shrines. OTOH, here is what happened after the attack on Pearl Harbor, from the Maui News, January 18, 2009: "...The fact that Maui Jinsha still stands today is testament to the dedication of the various church members throughout the years. Following the 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor, the military closed the temple and evicted the Arine family from an adjacent church cottage. The bad news kept coming and the Rev. Masao Arine was sent to a Japanese internment camp in Haiku, where he stayed for nine months. Meanwhile it was up to his wife, Torako, to care for the family's eight kids on her own. "We sleep in this church for 10 years. We no more place to go, so we stay in this church," Torako Arine recalls. "It was hard," admits son Richard Arine, 63. "There were eight of us kids and we all slept in the hallway, right in a row." Just as the war was coming to a close in the mid- 1940s, another hurdle was mounting for the already struggling church. The landowner gave the family two choices: remove the temple or have it destroyed. "People work hard and donate money to build this church - you think we going just leave it like that?" Torako Arine asks. Instead, the family purchased land in its current location in Paukukalo and moved the temple, one piece at a time. Members disassembled the structure in several sections, then rebuilt it from the ground up and reopened it in 1955. Today the church is on the list of National Register of Historic Places. ..." http://www.mauinews.com/page/content.detail/id/513816.html It is unfair for the ADL to be smeared so widely for suggesting a different location and questioning the motive and financing of Cordoba House. It is also unfair for people to assume that it is ok because Mayor Mike and the Community Board say it is ok. That is a theme emerging in comments at non-TNR blogposts. Earlier in this thread, I explained why that is meaningless. New Yorkers are still mad that Mayor Bloomberg tried to force a football stadium through, and about the new Yankee Stadium, which stole lovely parkland and is heavily subsidized by NYC through municipal bonds. I was nowhere near the WTC on 9/11, and had no personal connection to the tragedy. Yet, a recurring nightmare from a PTSD trauma in 1995, a nightmare I had not had for a few years, came back for three weeks. People just can not imagine how deep the trauma is for millions of New Yorkers. After Canal Street was re-opened, I was treating a friend to a quickie driving tour of Manhattan. We both gasped when we saw the giant hole of Ground Zero. I did not like the towers - they were too tall for the skyline, especially at the approach to the Holland Tunnel from New Jersey. The palza was sterile, and the elevators seemed to violate a law of nature. But, to see that deep hole, and the memory of watching the destruction on CNN that day, I can still see the people who had to jump or burn to death. I worked with the Municipal Art Society in the ImagineNewYork program that was meant to help people heal. It really helped me, even when I wound up in Flatbush and the group that asked for the workshop did not show up. Some of the workshops consisted solely of people who had lost loved ones. Maybe this is why the actual reconstruction and memorial have yet to start, almost nine years later. Michael Barbaro of the NYT was wrong to write on July 30 "To many New Yorkers, especially in Manhattan, it is a construction zone, passed during the daily commute or glimpsed through office windows." [just so he could then write] "To some outside of the city, though, it stands as a hallowed battlefield that must be shielded and memorialized. " [just to politicize the issue]

- K2K

August 1, 2010 at 1:24am

noga, That article was NOT misleading. I do not give Foxman the benefit of the doubt after his reversal. And the article you cite which justifies the position of the ADL, a "fight that isn't theirs", is laughable. Of course the fight against those who deny the Holocaust is ours, and we should be on the side against anyone who wishes to whitewash their own genocide, including the Turks. A bit of context that is missing. That is laid out in this article: http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2007/08/17/local_chapter_breaks_with_adl_position/

The developments were the latest turn in a national debate that began weeks ago in Watertown, home to more than 8,000 Armenian-Americans. Some residents were upset to learn that the ADL was the sponsor of the town's antibigotry program "No Place For Hate." Many began calling for Watertown to pull out because the ADL refused to acknowledge the genocide. On Tuesday, the Watertown Town Council voted unanimously to rescind its relationship with No Place For Hate. And by yesterday, residents in Newton, Belmont, Somerville, and Arlington were rethinking the program, and local Jewish leaders were renouncing the ADL's stand.

- rlgordonma

August 1, 2010 at 9:51am

BTW in my haste, I typed "the Turks", where I should have said "the Turkish Government".

- rlgordonma

August 1, 2010 at 9:53am

K2K, I am not a new yorker, but my colleague and friend missed one of the planes that ended up crashing into the towers only because he happened to change his connection. I'll never forget our lab huddled around the tv, watching the news that day, and the hours I spent on the phone with my then girlfriend now wife who was stranded in a different city and was already deathly afraid of flying before this. The hole does leave a hole.

- miceelf

August 1, 2010 at 9:54am

Rigordonma, you also typed "angles" for "angels" unless there's something mystically pythagorean that I am missing. ;-)

- miceelf

August 1, 2010 at 9:58am

miceelf, Yes I meant "angels". Thanks, nothing triangular implied.

- rlgordonma

August 1, 2010 at 10:17am

rlgordonma: "I do not give Foxman the benefit of the doubt after his reversal." Why not? He published a position that gave rise to vehement opposition from every corner of the Jewish world and he retracted it. As it turns out, he was perfectly correct in his anxiety for Israel's relations with Turkey and for Turkish Jews. But what do you care? As long as you get to ventilate against a good Jew who still harbours old-fashioned and outdated devotion for Israel and for the safety of other Jews in Muslim countries. It's so very not chic to defend Abe Foxman these days! http://newcentrist.wordpress.com/2007/08/21/armenian-genocide-and-the-jewish-community/

- noga1

August 1, 2010 at 10:32am

http://newcentrist.wordpress.com/2007/08/21/armenian-genocide-and-the-jewish-community/

- noga1

August 1, 2010 at 10:33am

noga:

As it turns out, he was perfectly correct in his anxiety for Israel's relations with Turkey and for Turkish Jews. But what do you care? As long as you get to ventilate against a good Jew who still harbours old-fashioned and outdated devotion for Israel and for the safety of other Jews in Muslim countries."

- rlgordonma

August 1, 2010 at 10:55am

miceelf: "The hole does leave a hole." Yes, indeed. Early in this thread,on July 30, you asked if there had been polling. Rasmussen did a national poll, 54% against. The July 1 Quinnipiac Poll of registered New York voters was 52% against, 31% for, with 17% undecided. 66% of Jewish and 66% of Catholics were against. Most important factor is this opinion: "...A mosque near Ground Zero would "foster understanding and teach people that not all Muslims are terrorists," 42 percent of New York City voters say. Of this group, 68 percent support the mosque. Another 42 percent of voters say the mosque "is an insult to the memory and families of 9/11 victims." Of this group, 93 percent oppose the mosque. ..." It is a very detailed, revealing poll: http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1302.xml?ReleaseID=1473 Perhaps the ADL thought to issue this statement because of the estimated, in 2008, two million Jewish residents of the NY metro area, which includes close-in suburbs of New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut. In New York, Catholics dominate: 42% statewide and 37% in NYC. But, the Jewish vote is so big, 9% statewide, 13% in NYC, that it definitely can swing a state-wide, and many local elections, although there is usually no one issue that sways the entire vote. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews#Population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City

- K2K

August 1, 2010 at 11:03am

" By helping to whitewash Turkey's genocide of Armenians, " But he has not done that, has he? Yet you insist on painting him as an unrepentant genocide denier. For shame. Learning from you about bigotry is as instructive as learning from Erdogan about the sufferings of Palestinians.

- noga1

August 1, 2010 at 11:08am

noga:"It's so very not chic to defend Abe Foxman these days! " Worse is happening. The pile-on to demonize Abe Foxman and the ADL over this statement is horrible, especially when Haaretz joins in and quotes Joe Klein's nasty language. rigordonma: "By helping to whitewash Turkey's genocide of Armenians" Turkey whitewashes their whole history of genocides: Armenians, Pontic Greeks, Assyrian Christians, indigenous Kurds. Using the word 'massacres' instead of 'genocide' is NOT a whitewash. Most people understand very clearly what a massacre means. Genocide is a very specific legal definition. Using a former word-splitting dispute with the ADL in order to demonize Foxman and the ADL into total irrelevancy is unfair. No one is perfect.

- K2K

August 1, 2010 at 11:22am

Contrast the knee-jerk silliness in TNR (and so many other) blogposts with this analysis by Luisita Lopez Torregrosa, PoliticsDaily.com Correspondent: "...here in the city where it happened we've been wrestling with this issue for a while. This is a place that is sacred ground to millions of Americans, but most principally to the loved ones of the victims -- wives, parents, children, friends -- who haven't let the passage of nearly 10 years diminish the memory of that infernal day and of the cruel sight of bodies falling from the sky. Adding to the pain, for some, are plans to place in the same neighborhood a 15-story mega-mosque and Islamic community center. Its size, its location, and its very name -- the Cordoba House, so named after Cordoba, Spain, the capital of Muslim conquerors -- conjures up Islamicists' dreams of triumphalism. To an array of critics, the very idea is offensive; its construction would be a desecration. ... On the one side are those who believe the United States closed its eyes for too long to the very real threat of global Islamic radicalism and the murderous attacks that Muslim terrorists perpetrate around the world. Why should we pretend that we could ever find common ground with such people or be allies to nations that export such ideology while they prevent the construction of a single temple or church on their own lands, while they send mullahs, mosques and hate-filled textbooks to ours? On the other hand are those who believe that America's very strength is that we welcome all faiths and creeds and peoples; that, yes, you can build a mosque -- many mosques -- in New York, even near the site of a terrorist tragedy and that this doesn't weaken our resolve or our image in the world. It strengthens them. Whatever side you're on, it's fitting that the fight over the proposed Cordoba mosque is happening here. It goes to the root of so much that defines New York City: freedom of speech, freedom of religion, politics, assembly, beliefs, and freedom to be a jerk, insensitive, greedy, stupid, intolerant and silly. ... Why would the American Muslim leader Feisal Abdul Rauf choose a site near Ground Zero to build a 15-story community center for Muslims? New York City has dozens of mosques which apparently are getting along fine in their neighborhoods. Why go to the very place that Americans most associate with Islamic terrorism? ..." for the politics part, read the whole post at: http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/07/23/ground-zero-mosque-the-battle-beyond-palin/

- K2K

August 1, 2010 at 12:32pm

K2K [This has to be my last volley, this is being beaten to death]: Readers of TNR should be familiar with Samantha Power and her work espoused in "A Problem from Hell". Yes, the word "genocide", coined by Raphael Lemkin to describe precisely what happened to the Armenians, is a legal term and should not be bandied about, especially as it is done by some leftists with respect to Gaza. But the targeting of any Armenians and their families, shipping them off east, setting up death camps, etc., does qualify as genocide. As I said, the word was invented for this incident. Is it unfair to demonize Foxman over "word-splitting"? Yes. But this isn't mere word-splitting, and I do not seek to demonize him but to point out that he was wrong in 2007, and that he is wrong now. I already said that he may be a great man for all I know - he wouldn't be the first to make ghastly mistakes. But they are mistakes, and they are ghastly. And unless we who think so speak up, we will all pay for them. Massacres are one-off events. A genocide is a specific, detailed plan to eliminate an entire people and their memories. This is not a splitting of words, but a difference with real consequences. How groups like the ADL respond to such differences has a huge impact on how its mission is able to be carried out, as you may have seen from the article I posted. [Specifically, whole communities in MA are unwilling to participate in the ADL's anti-bigotry programs because of its positions viz-a-viz Turkey/Armenians.] And don't get me started on Turkey's treatment of its minorities. The fact that it is now castigating Israel over the treatment of Gazans is a bad joke.

- rlgordonma

August 1, 2010 at 5:13pm

"..he wouldn't be the first to make ghastly mistakes. But they are mistakes, and they are ghastly. And unless we who think so speak up, we will all pay for them. " He may have made a "ghastly mistake" which he then corrected. No one would know that, reading your continued insistence that Foxman made a ghastly mistake. As if nothing changed after that "ghastly mistake". As if he continued to insist on referring to the Armenian genocide in euphemistic terms.

- noga1

August 1, 2010 at 5:55pm

setting aside the problem of making Abe Foxman the issue, I just read up on Community Board 1, especially their official planning needs. 45 Park Place is where the more (and upscale) residential neighborhoods of Battery Park City and Tribeca meet the north boundary of the Financial District. No need for a community center, library, or parks. Pressing needs for housing for the homeless and affordable housing, and restoration of small business retail, especially food shopping. Concern about out-of-scale (height) buildings on the 18th century scale cross streets. (Park Place is two short blocks wide west to east) Not a single mention anywhere of a need for any house of worship. full report for the curious: http://www.nyc.gov/html/mancb1/html/district/needs_statement.shtml

- K2K

August 1, 2010 at 7:14pm

There's some pretty shameful post-hoc attempts to intellectualize bigotry in here. It doesn't matter if 66% of Jews think all Muslims are responsible for 9/11 any more than it matters whether 66% of Christians think Jews committed deicide, it's still bilious hatred that has no place in a free and liberal country.

- Simon Greenwood

August 1, 2010 at 7:41pm

people who can not understand what they read have "no place in a free and liberal country"

- K2K

August 2, 2010 at 12:19am

You're the worst culprit. I can very well understand what I read, which is why I can see you for what you are. You may be in denial about it but everyone else can see right through you.

- Simon Greenwood

August 2, 2010 at 12:50am

"people who can not understand what they read have "no place in a free and liberal country"" is a generalization. a general observation no less general than "it's still bilious hatred that has no place in a free and liberal country." would Simon Greenwood expel every American who expresses words of "bigotry"? Has the Supreme Court defined "bigotry" and "bilious hatred", or made any expression of "bigotry" and "bilious hatred" illegal, and cause for loss of citizenship and residency? Is denial of free speech any less egregious than denial of any other Constitutional right? I have a general frustration that so many people, based on what they write all over the blogosphere and in the media, can not understand what they read.

- K2K

August 2, 2010 at 11:24am

I didn't say you should be expelled, you hypocritical illiterate. I said you don't belong here. And indeed you don't. Go live in Vatican City.

- Simon Greenwood

August 3, 2010 at 12:31am

"I said you don't belong here." Vatican City to Catholics is what the Muslim waqf is to Muslims: religiously consecrated ground with a stamp from God. "In Islam, the system a specific religious institution revenues from property. Such institutions are usually mosques, religious schools or social institutions, like hospitals. A waqfs would normally be arable land, farms, oases, buildings or companies. To the waqf there are managers in charge of securing that all maintenance and profits are well taken care of. In the early centuries of Islamic history, during times of territorial advances, waqfs were vital to the establishment of social structures in lands with weak state structures. In modern times, waqfs are merely financing structures, but can in many cases be of great importance. The waqf is thought of as a part of the whole mosque structure. A very central element to a waqf is its permanence. Once a waqf has been established, there are no possibilities for alterations of the contract. The only exceptions for this, is when some of the involved violates the contract or if the founder or manager secedes from Islam. Also, plain money is in most cases not seen upon as waqf. The Muslim part of the origin of the waqfs, is a bit obscure, and waqfs are seldom mentioned in the Sunna. There appears to have be a mixture of pre-Islamic and non-Islamic traditions. There have always been regional differences in the ways of regulating the waqfs. The institution of waqfs is only briefly described in the Sharia, Muslim law. " http://i-cias.com/e.o/waqf.htm I think perhaps it is more befitting that the mover and shaker of the Cordova Initiative should be told to "Go live in Vatican City." But then I suppose anyone who even knows what "waqf" is, let alone "taaquia" or "ummah", is an illiberal bigot who doesn't belong "here".

- noga1

August 3, 2010 at 9:05am

hey noga, I thought this thread was as cold as "view full comment" in your waqf post - it does not work as I assume there is more text. oh well. I was wondering if Imam Rauf was going to declare Park51 a waqf, and then, how he was going to finance all the security and sidewalk dog poop cleaning (the big protest threat). perhaps the icy hatred from SimonG froze all future comments on this thread, like the White Witch of Narnia with her Ice Wand. perhaps I have accidentally wandered into the uber-liberal-incarnation of TNR. I might not renew - the roid-jake-simon have convinced me the Democrats have truly lost their way; not just a temporary Obama infatuation.

- K2K

August 4, 2010 at 1:04am

whoa. full red text. must be the devil at work.

- K2K

August 4, 2010 at 1:05am

MUCH of this controversy might have been mitigated if only this July 24, 2010 interview had been more accessible (and it may be that the very diverse American-Muslim community may actually shape the final plan for Park51 since they seem to be asking the truly hard questions, two examples below, but the entire interview is worth reading): http://www altmuslim.com/a/a/n/3866 "In the wake of growing public debate, we ask Sharif El-Gamal, the CEO of Soho Properties and the developer of Park51, some hard questions about the plans to develop a Muslim-run community center in lower Manhattan." By Aziz Poonawalla & Shahed Amanullah, July 24, 2010 ... QUESTION: "What are Imam Feisal's specific roles and responsibilities in the project? If he is not in a leadership/executive position, then who is really "in charge" and making the decisions?" ANSWER: "Imam Feisal Abdul-Rauf is as an interfaith leader and a visionary in this project. He has served the lower Manhattan community faithfully for over 27 years. He is supported by political and religious leaders across New York City for his commitment to moderation and tolerance and his years of work in bringing people together. Park51 is an independent project led by Muslim Americans. This project will be separate from The Cordoba Initiative and ASMA. The next step is forming a non-profit and applying for tax-exempt status. Imam Feisal and I are serving as the project managers until then. This non-profit will be run by an Executive Director, yet to be selected, support staff, and a 23-member Board of Directors. Imam Feisal will be one of the Directors, and will oversee the Cordoba House, which will direct the interfaith programming within Park51. We have not yet selected the other members of the Board of Directors, but we will be picking people very carefully, based on their record of leadership, relevant experience and positive contribution to New York City and the country. The board will not be limited by religion. The mosque will be run by a separate non-profit whose Board of Directors will reflect a broad range of experience. While the mosque will be located in the planned final structure of Park51, it will be a distinct non-profit. Neither Park51 nor the mosque, which hasn’t been named yet, will tolerate any kind of illegal or un-American activity and rhetoric." ... QUESTION: "The controversy has alienated many Americans and New Yorkers who are tolerant of Islam per se but viscerally react to the project with offense. In hindsight, what could you have done differently to avoid this reaction?" ANSWER: "My heart goes out to the families who lost loved ones. We were all attacked that day, no matter what our color or our religion. I understand that people are offended, but we cannot lose sight of why we are doing this. And we cannot forget that we are a part of this city, a major part of this city, and we need to work together as Americans and as New Yorkers. Moving forward, I hope and pray the dialogue reaches more New Yorkers and Americans. People have concerns and questions, and we want to answer them in a meaningful way, in a way that lets people know who we really are, what we want to do for the city and how they can be a part of Park51. We have to appeal to the undecided, and change the conversation about Muslims in America. Because of that, we’re offering an open door. You know, I’d love it if Sarah Palin came to Park51 to see our community. She’d see that we’re just as American as she is. She’d get the chance to meet some of her fellow citizens who happen to be Muslims. Consider that an open invitation, Mrs. Palin. We’d love to see you. We want to welcome everybody who cares about this city and about this country." [K2K postscript: kudos to reporter Aziz Poonawalla for asking hard questions, and getting some good answers. And for teaching me about his religion: Dawoodi Bohras (Hindi: दवूदि बोह्रा, Arabic: داؤدی بوہرہ) are the main branch of the Bohras, a Mustaʿlī subsect of Ismāʿīlī Shīʿa Islām.] from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawoodi_Bohras

- K2K

August 5, 2010 at 2:51pm