The New Republic

"A lot of people are going to eventually feel ashamed about where they stood." No, they probably aren't. One can dream, I suppose.

- ramcat

August 3, 2010 at 3:24pm

That's awfully optimistic of you, Mr Chait, but I don't see very many people who oppose building this mosque/community center two blocks from Ground Zero ever feeling ashamed of what they've said. This isn't a perfect correlation, but the overlap between these people and the people who favored the Iraq War falsehoods and torturing Muslims who may or may not have had any connection to terrorism whatsoever is pretty strong. How many of those people appear to feel shame? If you answered, almost none, you're correct! These are mostly people [Joe Lieberman, Newt Gingrich, Eric Cantor, Sarah Palin] who have "evolved" beyond shame. They are, quite literally, shameless.

- DC Spence

August 3, 2010 at 3:27pm

I'm with spence. Senor and others, who knows? but Lieberman and Gingrich aren't capable of shame, from what I can tell. Lieberman is obvious. And as for Gingrich, if pushing for Clinton's impeachment and preaching family values while schtupping someone other than his wife wouldn't cause him shame, I doubt this will either.

- miceelf

August 3, 2010 at 3:51pm

They're clearly groping for some wedge issues for November.

- IggyPop

August 3, 2010 at 4:06pm

I think Spence has the shameless part right, but it's ok. I'm already ashamed for my country for turning out such idiots. Every argument I've heard against this center boils down to "I don't think Muslims are automaticly terrorists, and I don't think 9/11 was an attack by Islam on this country, but I'm still offended by a mosque anywhere near the site of the attacks."

- IowaBeauty

August 3, 2010 at 4:36pm

I actually find the statement a reasonable one, Iowa, in the sense that one can talk about the issue from different sides, including the one you depict. And I do think there is something odd about this particular case. In any case, the fact that such an argument isn't logical or coherent -- or even recognizing of constitutional axioms -- doesn't make it in a human sense unreasonable or idiotic. For example, I recognize the Second Amendment, and I understand the consistency of the gun-rights lobby's objectives, but that doesn't prevent me feeling that Americans seem to be compensating for some strange loss of masculine privilege with their almost unique obsession with firearms. I regard that perception as quite a reasonable one.

- ironyroad

August 3, 2010 at 7:58pm

I'll make it unanimous among the Spences around here; I don't see any of these people ever feeling any shame over this. Let's say this mosque eventually gets built. These people will then find a way to blame everything from a future terrorist attack to a future recession to global warming to the Yankees not getting to the World Series on the presence of that mosque.

- cspencef

August 3, 2010 at 9:39pm

Malaysia's perdana4peace.org is primarily devoted to "breaking Israel's siege of Gaza" - Oops, they totally redesigned their website since July 31 and URL, and there is no longer any direct link from the new homepage to Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf's own page, which there was on July 31: http://www.perdana4peace.org/agenda.aspx?x=3 . I certainly do not want the Imam Rauf who so supports perdana4peace.org to have a bully pulpit anywhere in America, but that reflects my disdain for the anti-Israel far left who support Hamas in Gaza, the ideology that drives Islamic proselytizing, and Malaysia's Dr. Mahathir Mohamed. I guess now we know what Imam Rauf is working on (erasing the direct link to his page) while he is in Malaysia, and why his wife Daisy Khan gave an interview to the WSJ over the weekend where she finally sort of condemned Hamas use of terror, and mentioned they really do not have the money yet, and changed the array of 'amenities'. again. "the coercive power of politically correct pieties and the unyielding political assault on all dissenters is on full display" as Dorothy Rabinowitz writes today in the WSJ. In the same essay, "Liberal Piety and the Memory of 9/11", Rabinowitz wrote: "...Dr. Zuhdi Jasser—devout Muslim, physician, former U.S. Navy lieutenant commander and founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy—says there is every reason to investigate the center's funding under the circumstances. Of the mosque so near the site of the 9/11 attacks, he notes "It will certainly be seen as a victory for political Islam." ..." and now we have proof that Jonathan Chait never does his own research.

- K2K

August 3, 2010 at 9:59pm

Enjoy your dhimmitude, folks. And brush up on your sharia. You'll need it.

- NR114746

August 4, 2010 at 12:26am

The irony of Imam Rauf's involvement with Malaysia's http://www.perdana4peace.org/agenda.aspx?x=3 is that he may indeed be as deeply committed to ending war as Congressman Dennis Kucinich. I am not as concerned about Rauf being a secret Wahhabi promoting terrorism as him being a 'useful idiot' for the far left's assault on Israel, and possibly believing in the myth of "Zionist control" propagated by the Protocols. The last thing New York City needs is a high-profile Imam teaching this to other Muslims otherwise oblivious to the Jews, who then create even more strife due to NYC's very large Jewish population. Somewhat ironic that NYC's Catholics (and Hindus) seem to be the most upset over Cordoba House. "Freedom of religion" and anything Sarah Palin wants seem to be enough for liberals to support this mosque in this location regardless of how much trauma it inflicts on the majority of New Yorkers, how much it distorts the 2010 elections, not to mention the potential negative impact on NYC tourism. All those liberal travel boycotts of Arizona over that immigration law could stimulate a lot of conservative tourist boycotts of New York City.

- K2K

August 4, 2010 at 12:29am

irony:" I recognize the Second Amendment, and I understand the consistency of the gun-rights lobby's objectives, but that doesn't prevent me feeling that Americans seem to be compensating for some strange loss of masculine privilege with their almost unique obsession with firearms. I regard that perception as quite a reasonable one." yes, your perception is quite reasonable. To many others, including me, the right of the people to keep and bear arms is rooted in a deep mistrust of an imperious central government. Unlike the NRA, I think people should pass a proficiency test and be licensed, as they do with automobiles. Corollary: the obsession with muscle cars may fit your perception:)

- K2K

August 4, 2010 at 12:43am

why the site IS connected to Ground Zero = the reason Imam Rauf bought it, and Daisy Khan said on Monday that they were adding a 9/11 memorial to the still-being-defined project that will have prayer space for 2,000: "...But out of a baby-blue sky suddenly stained with smoke, a plane’s landing-gear assembly the size of a World War II torpedo crashed through the roof and down through two empty selling floors of the Burlington Coat Factory. The Sept. 11, 2001, attack killed 2,752 people downtown and doomed the five-story building at 45 Park Place, two blocks north of the World Trade Center, keeping it abandoned for eight years. ... The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, “where a piece of the wreckage fell,” said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, “sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11.” ..." map and slide show included. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

- K2K

August 4, 2010 at 2:51am

It's like a little piece of The Spine, right here.

- JEFF FREY

August 4, 2010 at 3:04am

K2K, do you believe that there is any reasonable opposition to the blockade, in practice?

- miceelf

August 4, 2010 at 8:13am

What better protection against an attack by Islamic terrorists than a legitimate mosque in the area?

- Nusholtz

August 4, 2010 at 8:32am

"I actually find the statement a reasonable one" Understandable, given the human disposition to wish to hold incompatible ideas simultaneously without need to reconcile them, when doing so suits their psychological needs. Reasonable - no. No, because it was neither Islam generally, nor the particular Muslims involved in the community center/mosque who perpetrated 9/11. No, because objecting to this project on the basis that it is Muslim cannot but be seen as such an indictment, both by Muslims generally, and by the objectors themselves, if they take their objections into the light of day and ask themselves "what is that is objectionable about a Muslim prayer room in proximity to the World Trade Center site?" It clearly is not that it is a prayer room per se. It is simply that it is Muslim.

- IowaBeauty

August 4, 2010 at 9:02am

Iowabeauty is of course correct. As I said somewhere (I lost my way among the many threads discussing this issue), the problem is not with the legality or constitutionality of the project. There is no question that the Cordova Initiative is within the law and Rights. The problem is that aside from that, there does not appear to be a very good reason for the megamosque/cultural center to be in that place of all places. Is this a neigbourhood that has a large contingent of Muslim residents? What exactly motivates the entrepreneurs to build an edifice this huge and ambitious exactly in that location? Of course the problem is that it is a prayer room (a "room" for 2,000 believers) and moreover a Muslim prayer room. Why should Islam, more than any other religion, take any sort of ownership for 9/11? They could build a moderate site, a cultural center without any of the trappings of religious observance, and I daresay much of the controversy would have disappeared.

- noga1

August 4, 2010 at 10:32am

So, Iowa, you consider that the mere fact of the Second Amendment invalidates in toto any other type of evaluation of Americans and their need for guns?

- ironyroad

August 4, 2010 at 10:54am

"What better protection against an attack by Islamic terrorists than a legitimate mosque in the area?" That sounds suspiciously like justifying the mosque for its potential use as a human shield against Islamic terrorists. It's a good idea. I think it should be adopted as a principle. Why not build a mosque next to any potential target of the wrath of the Islamists: in the White House, in the Pentagon, in synagogues and churches, in schools, everywhere?

- noga1

August 4, 2010 at 11:00am

miceelf :"K2K, do you believe that there is any reasonable opposition to the blockade, in practice?" I do not understand your question, miceelf. There is huge objection to Israel's naval blockade of Gaza on the far left. I do not think they are reasonable. Hamas is at war, by their choice, with the State of Israel, which is entitled to impose a naval blockade to prevent the entry of weapons to Hamas in Gaza. On Imam Rauf's affiliation with Malaysia's Dr. Mahathir Mohamed Gaza-obsessed http://www.perdana4peace.org/agenda.aspx?x=3 : "...It has become widely known that Rauf is a leading figure in the so-called Perdana Global Peace Organisation, which is headed by one of the Islamic world's most offensive Jew-haters, former Malaysian prime minister Mahathir bin Mohamad. Perdana was instrumental in organizing the Turkey-based attempt to run the Israeli naval embargo of Hamas-run Gaza at the end of May. The group's roster of "Role Players & Contributors" begins with Mahathir, listing Rauf as second below him. ... Perdana is clearly an alignment of differing extremists, brought together by hatred of America, Israel, and globalization. In that regard, it much resembles Middle East studies in America as guided by Esposito. It includes defenders of Hamas and defenders of Milosevic. How can anybody active in such an effort claim to seek mutual understanding between Muslims and non-Muslims at a location near Ground Zero?..." quoted from article written by Winfield Myers for Campus Watch, a project of the Middle East Forum, posted today at: http://www.hudson-ny.org/1461/john-esposito-islamophobia-ground-zero-mosque I might add that Turkey imposed a complete land blockade along their border with Armenia in 1994 solely to show solidarity with Azerbaijan over their mostly frozen armed conflict with Armenia. Why does Perdana Global Peace Organisation not care about that blockade or resolution of the conflict?

- K2K

August 4, 2010 at 2:32pm

noga: " the problem is that it is a prayer room (a "room" for 2,000 believers) and moreover a Muslim prayer room." There is no way they can fit 2,000 people in one room on a site that small. It will take at least four floors of prayer rooms for 2,000 people, maybe more. The Islamic Cultural Center of New York at 1711 Third Avenue, between East 96th and 97th Streets has a huge footprint, and the capacity of the Main Prayer Hall is only 1,000. I am looking forward to the New York Fire Department's review of the final building plans for Park51, a process just starting now that they have the approval to move to the actual planning and design phase. Yes, the NYFD can veto a final building plan if it does not comply with all fire safety codes and regulations.

- K2K

August 4, 2010 at 2:42pm

Noga: "Why not build a mosque next to any potential target of the wrath of the Islamists: in the White House, in the Pentagon, in synagogues and churches, in schools, everywhere?" From there, it's a short hop to "jizya" (protection money) required by Islam of its non-Muslim citizens. Chait, citizen of the world, can't get enough of this topic.

- amidut

August 4, 2010 at 4:55pm

Sorry, K2K, for the lack of clarity, if you're still reading this (and if I remember to check back)- when I said "in practice", I meant the blockade in practice, ie., limiting not just weapons, but various (seeminly arbitrary) classes of foodstuffs, building materials, etc.

- miceelf

August 4, 2010 at 9:28pm

miceelf: I do not know why I came back, but, when about life in Gaza under the blockade, I think of the June 2, 2010 report of "...Danish reporter Steffen Jensen reported on the strange situation, when his curiosity got the better of him and he decided to see what life was really like in Gaza, and documented a bizarre contradiction between a perceived poverty and a reality in which most basic need were in good supply. “The first woman we interviewed in the market confirms this strange, contradictory, negative mindset: “We have nothing,” she said. We need everything! Food, drinks … everything!” It disturbed her not that she stood between the mountains of vegetables, fruit, eggs, poultry and fish, while she spun this doomsday scenario….” "...As one Japanese journalist put it, “Gaza and the West Bank are the only places in the world where I have seen refugees drive Mercedes.” ... [commentary added by David Gold on July 28, 2010] ... There is no way that the situation for those who are suffering, will ever improve until this vile terror movement are removed from power, probably through force. This group, Hamas, are those who we should blame, when lamenting the situation facing some of those living in Gaza. It treats women as second rate citizens. It executes those it accuses of sympathising with Israel and its enemies. It destroys UN programmes it perceives to be un-Islamic. It has brought public executions back to Gaza. It confiscates aid meant for the people of Gaza, and refuses to purchase the electricity that Israel offers it for its people.... The £7.4 billion of aid, given to the Palestinian authority to build these fancy homes for their leaders and on casinos in Jericho, could have fed 100 million starving children from Dijibouti to Zambia. ..." http://www.the-vibe.co.uk/2010/07/28/life-in-gaza-uncovered/ http://www.steffen-jensen.dk/dan/blogartikler/141--stop-daemoniseringen-af-israel/

- K2K

August 5, 2010 at 12:21am

This is an off-topic footnote for ironyroad about the Nasr/Fadlalah kerfuffle, I thought it only fair to acquaint him with this article written by Martin Kramer in which he actually expresses sentiments not quite like those expressed in Octavia Nasr's tweet but nevertheless... : "But Fadlallah was an expert in planting seeds of doubt, and over the years he dropped off the hit lists of Hezbollah’s enemies. Still, without him, Hezbollah would have had a much tougher row to hoe in the early years. He wasn’t responsible, as far as I know, for any one act of violence, but he justified quite a few of them after the fact. Up until today, he was on the U.S. Treasury Department’s list of “specially designated nationals.” Needless to say, when it came to Israel, he was uncompromising. I do think I treated him fairly and respectfully in my long study, and I made sure he received it—especially the subsequent Hebrew edition, which appeared as a monograph with his portrait on the cover. At the peak of his powers, he was truly formidable. It’s unlikely that Lebanon will be home to another figure quite like him again." http://www.martinkramer.org/sandbox/2010/07/ayatollah-fadlallah-dies/

- noga1

August 5, 2010 at 9:53am

MUCH of this controversy might have been mitigated if only this July 24, 2010 interview had been more accessible (and it may be that the very diverse American-Muslim community may actually shape the final plan for Park51 since they seem to be asking the truly hard questions, two examples below, but the entire interview is worth reading): http://www.altmuslim.com/a/a/n/3866 "In the wake of growing public debate, we ask Sharif El-Gamal, the CEO of Soho Properties and the developer of Park51, some hard questions about the plans to develop a Muslim-run community center in lower Manhattan." By Aziz Poonawalla & Shahed Amanullah, July 24, 2010 ... QUESTION: "What are Imam Feisal's specific roles and responsibilities in the project? If he is not in a leadership/executive position, then who is really "in charge" and making the decisions?" ANSWER: "Imam Feisal Abdul-Rauf is as an interfaith leader and a visionary in this project. He has served the lower Manhattan community faithfully for over 27 years. He is supported by political and religious leaders across New York City for his commitment to moderation and tolerance and his years of work in bringing people together. Park51 is an independent project led by Muslim Americans. This project will be separate from The Cordoba Initiative and ASMA. The next step is forming a non-profit and applying for tax-exempt status. Imam Feisal and I are serving as the project managers until then. This non-profit will be run by an Executive Director, yet to be selected, support staff, and a 23-member Board of Directors. Imam Feisal will be one of the Directors, and will oversee the Cordoba House, which will direct the interfaith programming within Park51. We have not yet selected the other members of the Board of Directors, but we will be picking people very carefully, based on their record of leadership, relevant experience and positive contribution to New York City and the country. The board will not be limited by religion. The mosque will be run by a separate non-profit whose Board of Directors will reflect a broad range of experience. While the mosque will be located in the planned final structure of Park51, it will be a distinct non-profit. Neither Park51 nor the mosque, which hasn’t been named yet, will tolerate any kind of illegal or un-American activity and rhetoric." ... QUESTION: "The controversy has alienated many Americans and New Yorkers who are tolerant of Islam per se but viscerally react to the project with offense. In hindsight, what could you have done differently to avoid this reaction?" ANSWER: "My heart goes out to the families who lost loved ones. We were all attacked that day, no matter what our color or our religion. I understand that people are offended, but we cannot lose sight of why we are doing this. And we cannot forget that we are a part of this city, a major part of this city, and we need to work together as Americans and as New Yorkers. Moving forward, I hope and pray the dialogue reaches more New Yorkers and Americans. People have concerns and questions, and we want to answer them in a meaningful way, in a way that lets people know who we really are, what we want to do for the city and how they can be a part of Park51. We have to appeal to the undecided, and change the conversation about Muslims in America. Because of that, we’re offering an open door. You know, I’d love it if Sarah Palin came to Park51 to see our community. She’d see that we’re just as American as she is. She’d get the chance to meet some of her fellow citizens who happen to be Muslims. Consider that an open invitation, Mrs. Palin. We’d love to see you. We want to welcome everybody who cares about this city and about this country." [K2K postscript: kudos to reporter Aziz Poonawalla for asking hard questions, and getting some good answers. And for teaching me about his religion: Dawoodi Bohras (Hindi: दवूदि बोह्रा, Arabic: داؤدی بوہرہ) are the main branch of the Bohras, a Mustaʿlī subsect of Ismāʿīlī Shīʿa Islām.] from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawoodi_Bohras

- K2K

August 5, 2010 at 2:38pm