THE PLANK APRIL 8, 2008
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At a fundraiser last week in San Francisco, Barack Obama uttered this about diplomacy:
I think a lot of people assume that might be some sort of military thing to make me look more Commander-in-Chief-like. Ironically, this is an area--foreign policy is the area where I am probably most confident that I know more and understand the world better than Senator Clinton or Senator McCain.
It's ironic because this is supposedly the place where experience is most needed to be Commander-in-Chief. Experience in Washington is not knowledge of the world. This I know. When Senator Clinton brags 'I've met leaders from eighty countries'--I know what those trips are like! I've been on them. You go from the airport to the embassy. There's a group of children who do native dance. You meet with the CIA station chief and the embassy and they give you a briefing. You go take a tour of a plant that [with] the assistance of USAID has started something. And then--you go.
You do that in eighty countries--you don't know those eighty countries. So when I speak about having lived in Indonesia for four years, having family that is impoverished in small villages in Africa--knowing the leaders is not important--what I know is the people...
I actually covered Obama on one of these visits not long ago (to a USAID-supported furniture plant, actually) and he didn't seem as dismissive of the experience as he does in the quote above. In fact, Obama's trip to Africa two years ago was hardly the routine, photo-op driven junket he makes public diplomacy out to be: particularly memorable was the HIV test he took with his wife before a crowd of thousands of Kenyans. Never mind how out of character this is for an American politician, the public taking of an HIV test sent an enormously important message on a continent where so much stigma is attached to this disease and people deliberately avoid knowing their status.
But it is silly for Obama to suggest that he knows more about the ins and outs of foreign policy than either John McCain or Hillary Clinton because he lived in Indonesia from ages 6 to 10. And it is politically foolish for him to use this personal history as a talking point, as John McCain can simply reply that he spent 5 years being tortured, and that imprisonment at the ends of the North Vietnamese (not to mention nearly two decades on the armed services committee) gives one a better perspective on world affairs than trekking through Pakistan as a college student. Given Obama's emphasis on his unique ability to mend America's supposedly broken alliances, I find that this wholesale denigration of congressional trips, USAID, CIA station chiefs, the foreign service et al. speaks to his quasi-messianic belief that, by dint of his very presence, he will be able to solve any problem brought before him. The last president who oozed this trait was Jimmy Carter (and, to some extent, George W. Bush). Look where that got us.
--James Kirchick
40 comments
A post at TNR critical of Obama. The sky must be falling.
If visiting a country is not the same as knowing the country, and it isn't. The knowing some poor people in a country is also not the same as knowing the country.
I have met lots of poor Brazilians when I visited the country not long ago. But I wouldn't say I know the country.
- jacksondyer
April 8, 2008 at 6:52pm
Hey, at least we're getting specific about the various types of foreign policy "experience" being peddled:
1. Visiting heads of state on junkets (lots of them) -- Hill
2. Living in foreign countries as a child and having relatives in foreign countries -- Barry
3. Engaging in combat and getting tortured in foreign countries -- McCain
Of the list above, I'd go with #2, but prefer some others:
4. Negotiating with leaders of foreign countries, preferably with successful results
5. Engaging in serious study of foreign countries, like the ones we trade with or plan to invade
6. Voting "correctly" (wisely) on past foreign policy issues
- stgla
April 8, 2008 at 6:52pm
Jamie, you are obfuscating, again. He didn't say he knew the ins and outs of foriegn policy better- he said he knew the world better. And I tend to agree- how people live on the ground is vastly important. He is doing little more than regurgitating Robert Kaplan, there. And he wasn't engaging in "wholesale denigration" of foriegn service workers. What he was saying is that little junkets don't give you a great glimpse of the country. CIA station cheifs, USAID people, et al, do know the country better than Congresspeople or First Ladies who parachute in. Because they live there. An experience which teaches you more things. Which is what Obama is saying he has done. I can't tell if you are lying or just don't know how to read.
- boneill
April 8, 2008 at 6:57pm
But is HE claiming to know the countries he visited on those tours because of those tours? I don't think so, and so I don't see the inconsistency. I see him saying that living in a country trumps visiting it by a huge margin. And I think he said that in response to her denigration of his non-governmental experience in Indonesia. I also don't see him saying these junket trips are worthless either. Just very limited, which they are.
- psantillana
April 8, 2008 at 7:03pm
I appreciate this post. It speaks to Obama's belief that he can by-pass divisions by rejecting those who create them, rather than working with those people to find common ground and move beyond them. With Carter, we saw this in Israel-Palestine. With W., we saw this in Iraq. Obama may believe in speaking to/working with the people -- but, as we've seen in Palestine and Iraq, when Americans undermine the authority of a country's leaders with its people, no amount of American support for new leadership and policy will work.
- scottlooper
April 8, 2008 at 7:13pm
James Kirchick demonstrates his illiteracy when he suggests that Obama's speech is a "wholesale denigration of congressional trips, USAID, CIA station chiefs, the foreign service et al."
A couple of days ago Spencer Ackermann had a discussion of Kirchick's lame review of Matthew Yglesias's new book.
toohotfortnr.blogspot.com/.../twinkletoes-youre-breaking-my-heart.html
The comments were pretty funny. One of the commentators even came up with a name for Kirchick - grundelmeister.
- ndmackenzie
April 8, 2008 at 7:15pm
I love that TNR posters continue to place living abroad as a small child with meeting world leaders as an adult. How obtuse!
- scottlooper
April 8, 2008 at 7:18pm
Obama is exactly right about this. As a Congressional staffer, I have been on several of these trips with Members of Congress. The vast majority of them are about the food, wine, shopping, and sight-seeing. They are a complete perk of the job, and have very little to do with becoming an expert on foreign policy.
- arsenal89
April 8, 2008 at 7:26pm
I agree with Kirchik (gasp!) to some degree. Obama needs to stop stressing his overseas background as giving him a better understanding of the world than Hillary or McCain. Hillary's expertise isn't as impressive as she'd like it to be, and McCain has a Bill Richardson problem: all resume, no interview. Obama is at his best when mocking how their experience doesn't necessarily reflect wise judgement. Countering with his Jakarta Years isn't necessary, and invites mockery in itself. Obama has surely realized this, since he's probably been jibed for his non-traditional background in the past. Perhaps he's trying to gain control over his own narrative, before the Muslim Arab Negro flyers start hitting mailboxes in swing states. I just think there are better ways of doing it.
But Obama's synopsis of VIP visits was fantastic. "Children doing the native dance", so true. McCain and Clinton are especially vulnerable here, after McCain's Baghdad Market trip and the Seige of Tuzla. Kirchik misinterprets Obama towards the end: Obama did not denigrate USAID, CIA station chiefs or the foreign service, he denigrated Washington VIPs who zip in to their environment and zip out again, and call that Experience.
And of course Obama thinks he's the one with the answers! He's running for president, isn't he?? This hardly makes him like Carter or Bush. What, because of those jokers we can't elect ANYONE who hasn't marinated in Washington for two decades?
- hewstino
April 8, 2008 at 8:03pm
Hilarious - more of Obama calling it like it is with the honesty people have come to expect from him. He didn't blather a bunch of diplo-speak, or pander or kiss rump.
He said openly what happened on those trips and how he really felt about them. Imagine that. Real observations, honesty shared without fear of headlines the next morning. Hillary wouldn't know how to do that if she lived to 100. She's as spontaneous and real as a kabuki dance.
If we're sick to death of Hillary over playing this nonsense, square it and that's how sick Obama is of it. In my view, he's been incredibly polite with Hillary's compulsive lies, especially since they relate to the entire justification of her candidacy. As the Hillary folks are so fond of saying, imagine what the Republicans would do with this stuff.
Now as far as justifying the dumb McCain comments Obama made - you can't. They were stupid and (like Hillary's Walter Mitty stuff), play in to the fears people have of him - as callow and arrogant. McCain must have smiled a huge smile when he read that stuff, he knows how that will play. I hope Michelle oops'ed Obama upside the head after this performance. Obama living overseas has value (limited), but trying to say he knows MORE than McCain because of it is about the dumbest thing he's said the whole campaign.
- Wandreycer1
April 8, 2008 at 8:05pm
Tep's going to have to change his clothes after reading this.
- ralphnelle
April 8, 2008 at 8:19pm
It is very interesting that the solipsism that defines almost all US politicians - privilege, mono chromed culturalization and education, stultifying committee work on govt committees populated with other such species - continues to be the measure of competence.
Granted, McCain's years in a VC prison camp is a testament to his courage and will but I hardly see how that experience, without taking away anything from the man for enduring it, actually gave McCain an expanded and diplomatic view of the world. In fact, as my uncle Joe once said, being in a POW camp narrows your perspective - food, water, and escape - but that is another story.
I would bet that based upon my background and experiences, I know a hell of a lot more about America than most US politicians and tnr journalists for that matter.
Obama is correct. The govt imprimatur is one measure of experience but not the only one. Obama has an open mind and has lived in other places. Right wingers viscerally hate that. Look at how they bashed Kerry for speaking French. We revel in our narcissism and all its limitations.
- thejauntyboulevardier
April 8, 2008 at 8:47pm
Obama spoke like a normal human being, oh the horror. But now comes the analysis, laborious and self involved (I covered him...yada yada, yeah it is about you isn't it). Anyway, agree with hewstino, if Obama uses this as an official qualification, then it is weak, but this was at a fundraiser, people at fundraisers want their candidates to talk like real human beings, and not do a standard stump speech. But Jamie is acting like it was, that is what makes his whole analysis fall to shreds. Next, Obama was overheard at a dinner party talking about his trip to the Virgin Islands, now if he thinks that.....just giving Jamie a head start on his next stretch.
- blackton
April 8, 2008 at 8:59pm
If I missed it, forgive me ... but I'm surprised I don't see a blog entry on The Plank (or even The Stump) today after Hillary Clinton's comments on NPR's "All Things Considered" in which she stated that even the delegates awarded in the primaries have no rule or obligation to stay with the candidate they committed to when they ran. From NPR:
"There is some fundamental misunderstanding of the way this whole nominating process works," Clinton says. "Every delegate has the right to choose whom they will vote for. … At the end of the day, there is no requirement that anybody do anything other than make their own best judgment."
Read here:
www.npr.org/.../story.php
- epackard-02
April 8, 2008 at 8:59pm
I have to agree with thejauntyboulevardier, I don't really see how spending 5 years, much of it in solitary confinement (according to the homepage on McCain's website), gives you a a lot of foreign policy experience. While military experience certainly is one aspect of foreign policy, the threat of military superiority only gets you so far when negotiating a trade deal or coming up with ways to lead the world to curb global warming trends.
- wyllie
April 8, 2008 at 9:37pm
blackton said: "Obama spoke like a normal human being, oh the horror."
Well, we expect more from the messiah in waiting, me thinks.
- jacksondyer
April 8, 2008 at 11:04pm
Love him or hate him, at least McCain has given a comprehensive view of what his foreign policy will look like:
www.nytimes.com/.../26text-mccain.html
John McCain’s Foreign Policy Speech
"The following is the text as prepared for delivery of Senator John McCain’s speech on foreign policy to the Los Angeles World Affairs Council, as provided by his presidential campaign."
I'd like to read or hear such a speech from Clinton or Obama.
- jacksondyer
April 8, 2008 at 11:11pm
McCain is as much a smug thug as George W..
And who calls his wife a trollope?
Google "McCain" "trollope" and "wife" and get ready to be shocked...but no surprised.
His temperament is a serious issue.
- fougasseu
April 8, 2008 at 11:20pm
"His temperament is a serious issue."
Got nothing stronger to say against him?
- jacksondyer
April 8, 2008 at 11:42pm
jacksondyer,
Below is a link to Obama's article in Foreign Affairs from last year. Not sure if that's what you are looking for.
www.foreignaffairs.org/.../renewing-american-leadership.html
- adamvaught
April 8, 2008 at 11:48pm
Yes, thanks, Adam.
- jacksondyer
April 9, 2008 at 12:11am
Man, and to think I used to believe that "arrogant" was a bit over the top when describing this guy. I don't think I've ever seen him, or any pol (aside from W), so smug as he comes across in this piece.
Where to start... how about, "knowing the leaders is not important...[I know] the people"
What an asinine remark. First, he doesn't "know the people" of Indonesia. He knows a few people. On top of which, he KNEW those people intimately many decades ago.
Second, of course knowledge of the undemocratic leaders of undemocratic or pseudo-democratic states is not just "important"; it's imperative. The people of those nations exercise at most only the weakest influence on the decisions made by their leaders.
Third, Obama's overseas experience has been almost entirely in states that are at most marginal players in the critical power struggles of our era. He knows nothing about realpolitik heavyweights like China, Russia, Iran; nothing about the most complex and probably the most important fence-sitting rising power of all, India; and knows next to nothing about France or Germany or the UK.
Fourth, Obama's unbelievable smugness itself indicates that he's naive. Shrewd statesmen don't talk big; they keep their cards close to their vest. "Speak softly" etc. They do so not least because they KNOW THE LIMITS OF THEIR EXPERTISE.
FIfth, this showcases once again Obama's really annoying tendency to pander to his audience with the most egregious BS. He goes to San Francisco and tells a left-wing, One Worldist audience... that a noble, kind-hearted "people" in a third-world, marginally important nation are more important than those nasty old meanies Putin Amadinejad Hu et al and those old white people in Paris and Berlin!
Truly amazing.
- teplukhin2you
April 9, 2008 at 1:27am
And before the inevitable chorus of "Yeah, so what does Hillary or McCain know about China Russia Iran" etc kicks in here, I'll reiterate that I'm not keen on ANY of the three candidates left standing.
My point is that Obama is light. Speeches like this one make me suspect that he is worse than light; he's a major-league BS artist.
We can do and should have done much better.
- teplukhin2you
April 9, 2008 at 2:18am
I am not worried about anyone's temperment, they are all doing remarkably well under the 24/7 live proctology exam that is a Presidential campaign. I don't care about "experience" - the most easily dispelled canard out there. Condi Rice's supposed expertise in Russian affairs is just one more example of a) her unending uselessness in the last 8 uears b) the uselessness of searching for how someone will perform based on arbitrary measures of experience. I would even argue that there is much more evidence out there that "experience" in very high level political positions almost always backfires.
Under stress, these candidates have less than appealing sides that come out (Hillary and her lies, Obama and his uncareful stretches of the imagination on his experience, McCain and his temper) and while its not pleasant, I am not looking for a messiah. Once you start looking for perfection in a candidate, you end up like Princess Tep, constantly feeling that latest pea under the latest mattress.
What I am concerned about is votes, ability to learn and synthesize and make sound decisions. I am looking for sincerity and intelligence. Here is where it gets dicey.
My problem with McCain (who I have met twice and simply adore) are his political views! His platform stinks. Besides having Phil Gram even on his staff let alone his major economic advisor (he's the father of our entire financial crisis right now, Bear Stearns stock holders should be picketing his house - a bigger financial idiot does not exist), we have McCain's constant gaffs about Iraq that are downright scary. He's never been remotely comforting to me on that issue. He's glib and ignorant on economics in a way that is downright frightening.
Obama and this gaff? Its the optics that make me cringe. A 46 year old first term Senator saying that he knows ANYTHING more than a 71 year old war hero/senior Senator (who was born in Panama and whose father and grandfather were admirals) will come across as disrespectful, even if a case can be made that what Obama is saying has value...
- Wandreycer1
April 9, 2008 at 6:45am
I believe he's just pointing out that HRC and McCain claims to experience is not any more pertinent than his when it comes to understanding other nations. I lived in Malaysia for three months and can claim as much understanding of that country as any of the three, although I lived in a hotel suite and was relatively insulated from the run of the mill Malaysian. None of them have real understanding of any other nation, but none of our past Presidents have either. So what? This isn't a subject to worry over; how about the war, the economy, where we are going as a nation?
- WaltB
April 9, 2008 at 6:49am
Obama has, on more than one occasion, revealed a streak of arrogance.
But I don't think there's anything particularly arrogant about what he's said here. What is arrogant? His self-belief and confidence that he "understands" the world better than Hillary or McCain?
I would certainly hope that is his belief - why would anyone run if they believed otherwise?
Of course this "knowledge" that Obama posseses of other nations and the people who live in them is limited. But I don't see anything that suggests that he's unaware of that. What he's doing is distinguishing his own "experience" from the more elitist experience of his rivals. That's smart.
- citizenghost
April 9, 2008 at 7:10am
Strange, JK went to South Africa and now talks about it like he's an expert. Oh, the irony.
In any event, McCain made the same slip about Iran yesterday in the Senate hearing. I'm starting to suspect he's too arrogant to bother to get the facts or he's too old for the job. I think ole boy is 8 years too late.
- mpatrickhendri
April 9, 2008 at 8:06am
***NEWS FLASH***
There are no perfect candidates for POTUS this year.
Tep, your posts are starting to look like pccostello's which all have the same theme, BHO is arrogant, BHO has no substance, BHO should be more specific...
The candidates before us are the ones we get to choose from, please deal with it and put your powers to good use.
On a personal note I believe that McCain getting the shit kicked out of him for 5 years speaks more to his character rather than his foreign policy experience. The fact that he keeps making mistakes with Iraq/Iran right now trumps his experience from the past. We live in the present people.
- gregstolhand
April 9, 2008 at 8:55am
Hmm let's review. He said the war in Iraq was a bad idea and he gave his reasons why including Iraq having nothing to do with Al Queada and 911. He said we should bomb targets in Pakistan if there was actionable intelligence and the Prime minister refuse or was incapapble of acting and he said that we should talk to Iran something. Looks like he may be right on all 3 counts I'd say he is batting 3 for 3 can Hilary and McCain say the same thing.
Thats the folly of our politics we think the longer you are in washington the more you know thats not necessarily the case. Obama imo has a much firmer grasp of history than McCain and Hilary. History a subject that you should be familiar with if you want to be CIC. He also was in School in later. The world has changed a lot since the 60's and 70's did HIlary and McCain keep up did they get refresher courses. No one is fully equipped when it comes to CIC but its funny now in this election there is some kind of threshold that needs to past. Imo what is needed more to be CIC is common sense intelligence and good judgment something that is lacking in GWB but he still manage to be CIC the worse one ever. Too bad they didnt have this threshold when he was running maybe we wouldnt be in this quagmire we are in of course we are in it thanks to Hilary and John McCain.
Carol
- harriscrl3
April 9, 2008 at 8:58am
Tep, a politician pandering at a Fundraiser, the absolute nerve, no he should alienate them by straight talk.
First, you don't know the people of the United States, at most you only know a few people. (really, that first point was silly, of course everybody only knows a few people)
Second, we all see where psuedofriendships lead: Bush looked into Putins soul and saw a teddy bear.
Third: how the hell do you know what he does or doesn't know about Asia. I have known expats living in China for years who can't speak more than a few words or phrases, and you have hispanics in the United States who have never visited Mexico but know and understand more than I ever can based on family and friends. Obama's brother in law is Chinese, do you honestly think you know the extent of their relationship?
Fourth and Fifth, it was at a fundraiser, something tells me the people there didn't find it smug but found it personal, he played to their vanity and as he is outraising Hillary 2 to 1, his "smugness" is working.
I remember Biden had a 10,000 a plate fund raising dinner, and raised 10,000.
- blackton
April 9, 2008 at 10:24am
Oh nonsense. McCain is a military brat who spent big chunks of his childhood outside the US, too -- perhaps more time than Obama. But not one Obama supporter would credit him with "knowing more about the world" because of it. And they shouldn't. My father worked in the petro-chemical and nuclear industry -- we spent lots of time outside the country, plus, saw much, much more of this country -- than Obama can even begin to claim. Does that make me either a foreign policy or military expert? Of course not.
But perhaps I do know a little more about Americans than Sen. Obama -- enough to know that most will find his assertion laughable.
- esmense
April 9, 2008 at 1:11pm
Let's look at Obama's comment in reverse: would you learn more about America by living with its people or by attending a state dinner with Bush and Cheney?
- BHLnyc
April 9, 2008 at 1:43pm
pounds on table, bellows "hear hear!" to the Wandrey comment above.
- psantillana
April 9, 2008 at 1:53pm
esmense, actually, I would credit McCain's time spent abroad as being a learning experience. Now you might not have learned anything anywhere, but most people do. Your assertion, I lived abroad but learned nothing about the world, is what I find laughable if not pathetic.
- blackton
April 9, 2008 at 2:03pm
blackton --
You need to work on your reading comprehension. I didn't say I didn't learn anything. I said my experience didn't make me a foreign policy or military expert.
Obama's assertion that his time spent in a foreign country as a very small child, and a student trip to Pakistan, makes him knowledgeable about the world is insulting and patronizing in the extreme -- to the rest of the world.
But it is a very American attitude, isn't it?
- esmense
April 9, 2008 at 5:06pm
esmense, but living in and being part of another culture certainly makes you more of an expert in foreign policy then someone who have never been outside of the United States. Now is it possible that someone can become a foreign policy expert by reading books but never leaving the United States, yes, I suppose, but certainly it is better to experience than to base all of your knowledge on reading. I don't doubt there are many people who live in other countries who learn nothing, but why assume that is the case with everyone?
Obama never claimed to be a military expert so I don't know why you said that line.
What, pray tell, is your definition of foreign policy expertise? Is it all simply book learning? It seems to most important feature of becoming an expert in foreign policy is to understand through personal experience the meaning of being foreign. I lived in China for 7 years and I guarantee I know a hell of a lot more about China then you ever will. I have also lived in Mexico now for 3 years, and learned a lot more about it here than I could ever from a book. Now if the state department were going to hire someone who should they hire, someone who has never set foot out of the country, that only speaks English, or someone who has had years of experience and is multilingual?
Our policy in Iraq has been such a disaster because no one understood the area, and no one speaks the language.
Obama lived in Indonesia during very critical and formative years, how the hell do you know what impact that has had on him, how very presumptive to think you can speak on that matter based soley on your own experience. Perhaps, just perhaps, it has allowed him to have a broader view of life, and not one based on insularity like Shrub.
- blackton
April 9, 2008 at 7:00pm
greg - I agree totally with the sentence following your "Newsflash." I believe that Obama is the best of a mediocre field. I still think we could have done better, but I recognize that at this point, saying coulda shoulda woulda just sounds like sour grapes. So I'll stop. :-)
- teplukhin2you
April 9, 2008 at 9:01pm
There's been some sniping lately about Obama's views on what counts as foreign-policy knowledge
- Anonymous
April 10, 2008 at 6:06pm
The New York Times ran two stories today that don't make me feel all that confident about the likely major party nominees. The McCain story, by Elizabeth Bumiller and Larry Rohter, ostensibly writes about a tug of war between McCain's realist and neoconservative
- Anonymous
April 11, 2008 at 12:24am
Yesterday, Jon wrote a post entitled, "McCain's Advisors Think He's a Lightweight."
- Anonymous
April 11, 2008 at 11:38am