The New Republic

Much better post than Kirchick's previous. However, it still winds up with a tone of whiney outrage. Unattractive. It makes me want to start listing the arguments against gay marriage that are not logically contradicted by one conservative schmuck's inability to commit to his own hetero marriages. (Which is to say, every serious argument against gay marriage, actually. The hypocrisy of the person making an argument doesn't actually disprove the argument.)

If you can't take this particular meaty pitch right over the plate and hit an engaging, witty zinger deep into the stands, why bother posting?

- rhubarbs

January 25, 2008 at 6:25pm

There are serious arguments against gay marriage? Pffft. I've heard a lot that claimed to be "serious." They weren't.

And Kirchick's point, albeit possibly clumsily made is that somehow "protection of marriage" is the stated rationale for the anti-gay marriage crowd. Most of whom don't hold their own marriage(s) in high regard.

Still, as regards Mr. Limbaugh- better a fourth marriage to someone whose of consenting age than those long vacations in that paradise of underage prostitution, the Dominican Republic.

- miceelf

January 25, 2008 at 6:57pm

LImbaugh is a hypocrite.

In other news, dog bites man.

- Brent

January 25, 2008 at 8:09pm

Rush's girlfriend is six months old? In a lot of ways that wouldn't surprise me. Lets just say I wouldn't want him to babysit my kids anytime soon. He would be having them score drugs for him in no time.

- blackton

January 25, 2008 at 8:15pm

A little Liberal Bias.

Far more interesting and in some regards more important, Detroit's Mayor Kwame Klipatrick was exposed as having a sexual relationship with his Chief of Staff, Christine Beatty.

Mayor Kilpatrick, who is also Congressman Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick's son, denied the affair many times.  He denied this in sworn testimony in a Detroit Police Officer wrongful discharge suit last year.

The City of Detroit consistently votes 90% Democratic.  The Mayor has a lot of contacts within the Democratic Party and even pushed to have the convention in Detroit.

It's interesting that TNR posts a piece about Rush Limbaugh on his way to his 4th marriage.  Yeah he's a hypocrite.  But Kwame Kilpatrick is the Liar.

- CRS9TNR

January 25, 2008 at 9:28pm

Rhubarbs, of course you're right.  The claim that the failure of heterosexual couples to live up to their commitments is an indictment of their institution, or justifies the gay marriage crowd's drive to coöpt it, is absurd on its face, though dishonest advocates like Kirchick use it as a red herring.

- jm_rice

January 25, 2008 at 9:49pm

I am still not clear on how gay people  being able to get married would change my own marriage, either materially or symbolically, in any way whatsoever.

But even if you accept there's no inherent hypocrisy in opposing gay marriage per se, while going through your own marriage like kleenexes, if your stated rationale for opposing gay marriage is the sanctity of marriage, it is hypocritical.

- miceelf

January 25, 2008 at 10:12pm

This is sad.  Rush Limbaugh has a girlfriend, and I don't.  Something is really wrong with the world.

- bcbaird

January 25, 2008 at 10:37pm

"How can anti-gay marriage conservatives even make their argument with a straight face anymore?"

James -- If you cannot see how the Homosexual Agenda conspired to wreck Rush's first three marriages, you obviously don't know just how insidious it is. ... In fairness, I'm still trying to figure out how Homosexuality pulled off the subprime lending crisis and prevented the Nationals from making the playoffs last year.

- J.J. Gould

January 26, 2008 at 12:59am

Come now. As if NAMBLA were a voice for the larger the gay community. This is a ridiculous basis for asserting anything. Let's try for a semblance of intellectual honesty. Yeah. I know it feels good but please....

- boxofrox

January 26, 2008 at 2:17am

Where are the stories about Al Gore's 10,000 sq ft. house and his $$5000/month electric bill? If you want to be "fair and balanced?"

I'm a conservative and still think Limbaugh's a fat bastard.  He's not the master of all conservatives.

- jwl2672

January 26, 2008 at 2:42am

You want a reason against gay marriage? How about this? It's not natural.  There is no biological reason for it.  Now before you bring up the idiotic analogy of the two sterile heteros, the difference btw. the two cases is that in one of them, there is a biological defect which prevents them from conceiving.  In the other, there is no chance in hell of them conceiving.  And until two gay people can naturally conceive a child, it is an aberration of nature.

Now, whatever these gays do to each other is their own business.  But to ask the state to celebrate their "union" by conferring the title of marriage is insane.

- jwl2672

January 26, 2008 at 2:48am

Well, so people should be allowed to marry if they can't do the "function" of marriage because of defect, but shouldn't if they don't want to? Ummm, okay. What about people like me and my wife who simply choose not to have children?

Since when is marriage solely about producing children?

- miceelf

January 26, 2008 at 8:04am

You want a reason against marriage?  How about this?  It's not natural.  There is no biological reason for it.  It's strictly a legal concept designed to protect property rights and dodge taxes.

And seriously, if homosexuals want to suffer with the rest of humanity by getting married, who are we to stop them?

And think about it: if you want to cut down on homosexual sex, what better way is there?  Think of all the ways marriage prevents sex through passive-aggressive behavior:

"I've got a headache."

"I'm just not in the mood!"

"Did you take out the garbage?"

"Not now, the dog wants back in..."

And JWL, you're not a conservative.  You're a bigot.  Learn the difference.

- bcbaird

January 26, 2008 at 10:25am

Ahh, this is a good thread.

For the first time ever in TNR posts pro and con on the first tier issue of gay marriage, I say ryely (which is a play of words on wryly, in case anyone supsects my illiteracy), and I'll drink to that.

- basman

January 26, 2008 at 3:46pm

"supsects": new word I made up, misspelling, never.

- basman

January 26, 2008 at 3:49pm

"It's strictly a legal concept designed to protect property rights and dodge taxes."  -- bcbaird

Exactly, which is why I think that government should get out of the business of ratifying marriages altogether.  "Marriage" should be a religious or spiritual construct, if anything.  If you want to join up with another human being, male or female, to provide some certainty about property rights, you should be able to join in civil union with them.  And that's it.  Where are all the so-called small government conservatives when it comes to privatizing marriage?

- glacialspeed

January 26, 2008 at 3:52pm

Marriage is a leal state which does not require one to have children.  A wedding is a religious ceremony.  How can the state say that because gays can't have kids they shouldn't get married.  Thank you, glacialspeed, for pointing out the obvious absurdity- the convos think the government should be out of anyone's business unless it offends their bigoted morality- jwl is an excellent case in point, with his fallacies about what makes a marriage appropriate.  

Should straights be asked if they are marrying for love and children?

Get the government out of my bedroom!  Except for maybe Dana Perrino.

- boneill

January 26, 2008 at 8:39pm