SUBSCRIBE NOW WELCOME BACK. Do you want to continue reading where you left off? New Republic subscribers can pick up where they left off no matter which device they were previously using. SUBSCRIBE NOW

Go Home Either the NASA Chief Is Out of His Mind Or The President Is...

THE SPINE JULY 5, 2010

Either the NASA Chief Is Out of His Mind Or The President Is Out of His Mind

BY MARTIN PERETZ

I suppose there are other cultures than the culture of Islam that are antagonistic to the urgency and agency of science. But different cultures, as Dan Diner writes in Lost in the Sacred: Why the Muslim World Stood Still, "produce different modernities." Not all at the same time, to be sure.

The core moment of the ability to produce and reproduce the attributes of modernity leads us into the prerequisites and requirements for the development of mankind -the political, social, and cultural environment to discover, to create, and to invent.

In the beginning is basic research in the natural sciences--even more than the ability to apply its results--accompanied by the enlightening significance of the humanities and the social sciences in enchanting the world. The production of knowledge, its means, and its consequences are the outcome of the process of secularization and are accelerated by the admittedly overzealous and impatient requirements of the Enlightenment.

So what are the prospects of the sciences in the Muslim world, especially in its Arab sector? Five volumes, written by a team of mostly apologetic intellectuals, "presents a rather bleak diagnosis of the state of the Arab world." "This lamentable situation," depicted in the Arab Human Development Report, "thrown into relief by (its) insistence on mere facts and figures, has evoked again, with unrestrained urgency, the question of modernity and secularization."

"A different way above and beyond the requirements of modernity is still not visible," writes Professor Diner.

Except, mirabili dictu, to the president and his hapless NASA chief.

NASA Administrator Charles Bolden said in a recent interview that his "foremost" mission as the head of America's space exploration agency is to improve relations with the Muslim world.

Though international diplomacy would seem well outside NASA's orbit, Bolden said in an interview with Al Jazeera that strengthening those ties was among the top tasks President Obama assigned him. He said better interaction with the Muslim world would ultimately advance space travel.

"When I became the NASA administrator -- or before I became the NASA administrator -- he charged me with three things. One was he wanted me to help re-inspire children to want to get into science and math, he wanted me to expand our international relationships, and third, and perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering," Bolden said in the interview.

The NASA administrator was in the Middle East last month marking the one-year anniversary since Obama delivered an address to Muslim nations in Cairo. Bolden spoke in June at the American University in Cairo -- in his interview with Al Jazeera, he described space travel as an international collaboration of which Muslim nations must be a part.

"It is a matter of trying to reach out and get the best of all worlds, if you will, and there is much to be gained by drawing in the contributions that are possible from the Muslim (nations)," he said. He held up the International Space Station as a model, praising the contributions there from the Russians and the Chinese.

However, Bolden denied the suggestion that he was on a diplomatic mission -- in a distinctly non-diplomatic role.

"Not at all. It's not a diplomatic anything," he said.

He said the United States is not going to travel beyond low-Earth orbit on its own and that no country is going to make it to Mars without international help.

Bolden has faced criticism this year for overseeing the cancellation of the agency's Constellation program, which was building new rockets and spaceships capable of returning astronauts to the moon. Stressing the importance of international cooperation in future missions, Bolden told Al Jazeera that the moon, Mars and asteroids are still planned destinations for NASA.

SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS

Show all 60 comments

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

60 comments

OK I'll bite. Not. OK, so I can't resist. Obama is thinking, maybe we could get Ahmadijenad to go on a space trip which the Saudis could pay for? Kind of a two-fer maybe? :)

- Sophia

July 6, 2010 at 2:38am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"...and third, and perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering," Bolden said in the interview. " We can help Bolden in his mission to help Muslim nations feel good about themselves right here and now: "Starting around 750 AD, science flourished under the Abbasid caliphs of Baghdad, gradually spreading its influence as far west as Spain and eastwards into Central Asia, over a period of more than 600 years. By drawing on a variety of texts - Greek, Indian and Persian - and translating them into Arabic, the early scholars accumulated the greatest body of scientific knowledge in the world … and built on it through their own discoveries. Often, there was a practical Islamic relevance. Astronomy could be used to work out the direction of prayer. Mathematics was needed for dividing property according to the Islamic law of inheritance. Although science flourished under Arab-Islamic patronage, by no means all the important figures in science were Muslims, or even Arabs. The common factor, however, was the Arabic language, which for a time became the international language of science. It was only later, in the 12th and 13th centuries, when the Arabic works began to be translated into Latin, that such knowledge passed to the west." http://www.al-bab.com/arab/science.htm

- noga1

July 6, 2010 at 7:49am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

I think Peretz is pretty confused about how science and technology work here. Modernity is much more a product of, and not really a cause of, scientific thinking. Fascist Germany and Japan appreciated scientific progress and had exemplary (in all ways but ethically) science and engineering programs. Iran's nuclear program shows how silly it is to think the world of Islamic fundamentalists is unimpressed by or incapable of engineering. It may not be the case that peaceful programs like NASA's will impress them, but you don't make that case by just waving your hands about modernity this and pre-modern savages that.

- Simon Greenwood

July 6, 2010 at 9:13am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

like Sophia, I'll take a bite: 'satellite seeks martyrdom...' :) I guess Peretz is too stunned by the NYT war against Israel this week to find anything more substantial to post about. The common thread is "Whatever He Says, Must Be True." Today's feature is the in-depth investigative report on "Tax-Exempt Funds Aid Settlements in West Bank" because "...While a succession of American administrations have opposed the settlements here, Mr. Obama has particularly focused on them as obstacles to peace. A two-state solution in the Middle East, he says, is vital to defusing Muslim anger at the West. ..."

- K2K

July 6, 2010 at 9:26am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

if islam is so inherently inferior and unscientific we would have nothing to fear, as Simon Greenwood noted. I would think internal consistency would be at least attmpted here. has anyone met a class of medical students recently? Engineering?

- miceelf

July 6, 2010 at 9:57am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"A two-state solution in the Middle East, he says, is vital to defusing Muslim anger at the West. ..." The only solution pertaining to Israel that may partly and temporarily defuse Muslim anger at the West is its destruction. The two-state solution is a worthy aim for Israel and the Palestinians and only for them. When Obama declares that Israel's existence is at the heart of Muslim anger, he surpasses even Ben Laden's worldview which considers a few historical factors as undermining Islam's importance, such as Andalusia, and the creation of the new middle east states by imperial powers after WWI.

- noga1

July 6, 2010 at 9:59am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"has anyone met a class of medical students recently? Engineering?" Where? In American, Canadian, British universities? Or in Amman and Damascus? "In TV Debate on Arab Universities, Arab Students' Union Head Ahmad Al-Shater Says Western Universities Are 'Laboratories for Weapons... Who Created Swine Flu, Bird Flu, & the Financial Crisis?'; Jordanian Professor Adib Al-Zu'bi Says Arab Countries 'Imported All the Prostitutes [After the U.S.S.R. Fell]... Scientists Imported by Israel & the U.S'" http://spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=6313

- noga1

July 6, 2010 at 10:09am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Noga, I was thinking of Western universities, where in many classes, Muslims outnumber non-muslims. Random quote from crazy Muslim to the contrary. (you can find similar screeds on American far-right websites, Far left websites, and eco-extremist sites)

- miceelf

July 6, 2010 at 10:17am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Charles Bolden recently gave an address to a class of 3rd graders at the Pinewood Elementary school and stressed the importance of education and how much the President wants him to reach out to children today. Honestly, has he lost his mind, tell me the name of one child astrophysicist or astronaut. What a silly post, someone scheduled an interview with Al Jazeera, what was he supposed to say? Just do a standard boilerplate speech? Or would Marty have preferred his version of the truth, I am sure that would have gone over well. Marty really has reached for the stars himself because with this post he is out of the world. Look, Bolden is just doing his job. Cut him some slack. I am sure when he is interviewed by Russian TV he goes on about US Russian co-operation, etc. No need to mock him.

- blackton

July 6, 2010 at 10:38am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Do I take it then that when Obama speaks of the Muslim world he has Western universities in mind? Not at all a screed but a very revealing debate, at least from one side of the debate. You didn't read what was in the link, did you? "Adib Al-Zu'bi: "In all these studies, the Arab universities are at the tail end of the list - both in the internal and external studies. The main reason is the lack of willpower among the decision makers to elevate Arab education to the international level. Our universities have become an extension of our elementary schools, in their teachings methods of memorization and learning by rote, and of killing and burying Arab creativity. [...] "The Arab allocation per capita for research is four dollars per annum, whereas the general world average is about $1,000 per annum. Israel allocates approximately $972 per capita, while we allocate four dollars. "My question is simple: Where is all the Arab money? Where does all the money go? It goes, as you know, to line the pockets of the top officials and to stockpile weapons in rusty storehouses, which have nothing to do with war or with defending the Arab homeland."[...] Where there is corruption, there is no scientific progress, no knowledge, no scholars, no research, and no progressive culture." [...]" If one were to listen to you one would come away with the impression that Arab universities are a hotbed of innovative thinking and scientific frontiers.

- noga1

July 6, 2010 at 10:39am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"No need to mock him." Not even if he is mock-worthy? Can you actually imagine a NASA Administrator declaring that "his "foremost" mission as the head of America's space exploration agency is to improve relations with the Muslim world. " ?? What next on the agenda for NASA? Cooperation with Erich von Däniken? Ultra orthodox Jewish rabbis? Buddhist monks? The possibilities are unlimited... a five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations; to boldly go where no man has gone before...

- noga1

July 6, 2010 at 10:46am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

miceelf was"thinking of Western universities, where in many classes, Muslims outnumber non-muslims. " yes, BUT do we know if all those Muslims are Ahmadis or Sufis or Alevis, the sects of Islam which try to adapt to modernity?? What about all the Arab Christians, or Indonesian Buddhists? I do not think we can make generalizations about religion based on country of origin for those who attend Western universities, especially when evolution and stem cell research continue to be such contentious (religious) issues in the United States.

- K2K

July 6, 2010 at 11:05am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

K2K, I agree. And definitely not in favor of making generalizations. That's my point. Wasn't assuming islamic based on country of origin, but on the fact that people request halal meals at the school dinners. if someone says, "I can't eat that, it's haram", I am going to assume they're muslim. Peretz is the one who is talking in very broad generalities about "the culture of islam" and the insanity of ever remediating in any way this unitary culture. Appreciate your frequent calls for more focus on the world as it is.

- miceelf

July 6, 2010 at 11:37am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

And here I thought Marty had at least some passing familiarity with attending parties. Hint: "Really, you wrote your thesis on the brutalist tradition in sacred architecture? I've always been fascinated by the brutalists ..." is not a true statement. It's simply the polite thing to say. But even if Bolden's comment were not obviously a polite nothing, it would actually be a perfectly reasonable thing to say. After all, we want the Muslim world to embrace modernity, and to do so on terms as close to ours as possible. And if there's a role for NASA in America's public diplomacy aimed at achieving that strategic goal, great!

- rhubarbs

July 6, 2010 at 11:50am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

miceelf: "people request halal meals at the school dinners" is an interesting metric. reminds me of when I used to request Kosher meals on airplanes because of food allergies - I knew I would get something bland but safe :) in the never-ending confusion at the New York Times, "A Hatred That Resists Exorcism" By EDWARD ROTHSTEIN reviews two books in a serious essay on antisemitism "..."A Lethal Obsession: Anti-Semitism From Antiquity to the Global Jihad” (Random House) weighs in at about 1,200 pages, a compendium of a career’s research by Robert S. Wistrich, professor of modern Jewish history at Hebrew University in Israel. And more than 800 pages are devoted just to British anti-Semitic history in “Trials of the Diaspora” (Oxford) by Anthony Julius ... Mr. Julius and Mr. Wistrich highlight its traditional reliance on conspiracy: the hidden plot. Anti-Semitism isn’t just a matter of asserting unpleasant or reprehensible attributes. It sees the Jew as an antinomian threat, overturning all ethical laws. The Jew works in secret, creating invisible alliances, pulling elaborate strings, undermining society’s foundations. This is why the Protocols of the Elders of Zion has found such a fertile international ground. That 19th-century document purports to be the secret minutes of such a plotting ensemble of Jews. It is the counterfeit confirmation of a long-held belief. Anti-Semitism is a metaphysical passion, not a materialist one. It doesn’t even require a Jewish presence. ..." http://www nytimes.com/2010/07/06/books/06antisemtism.html?ref=arts

- K2K

July 6, 2010 at 11:51am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"Peretz is the one who is talking in very broad generalities about "the culture of islam" " It seems a bit surreal that Peretz's point cannot be understood for what it is: that the culture of Islam does not provide the necessary conditions for the development of science and innovative thinking. The fact that Muslim students in western universities are numerous and successful only re-affirms this view. Not the other way around. "Walid wondered how I, as a newscaster, can describe Saudi society as being brainwashing. There is nothing to be surprising about, Dr. Walid. From the age of six or seven, from elementary school until high school, when we reach the age of 18, and even later, when we go to university - we memorize, memorize, and memorize. Whoever dares to argue or to question anything is called upon to ask for Allah's forgiveness. He is told that this will get him into Hell. You, who frighten people with Hell, have brought them a hell upon earth. You have banned books of the various intellectual streams. You've prevented the mind from operating, thinking, comparing, and choosing, even though it is the same mind that the Creator gave people in order to choose between Paradise and Hell. Our Lord honored Man by giving him the freedom to choose his path in this life, and the consequences are revealed in the world to come. Deeds are measured by the intent, and, as the Great Teacher taught us, good intentions steer our behavior. Yes sir, we are being brainwashed on a daily basis, through schools, through the Koran memorization schools. We always demand that these schools not be places of memorization, but for places for teaching, for interpretation, and for learning the keys to the Arab language, which is the secret to understanding the Koran and mysteries. Enough memorizing like parrots. Yes, we are all brainwashed, except for the few spared by God." http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/1420.htm

- noga1

July 6, 2010 at 12:11pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

K2k: heh, I was raised an SDA so I knwo about about ordering kosher meals on airplanes. But I was thinking of the haram thing, and my wife has many muslim colleagues; from somalia, from egypt, from palestine, from iran (lots of persian muslims, actually, in her dept). What's your criticism of the review you linked? I took him to be asking rhetorical questions about why anti-semitism matters and then answering in the affirmative. But I did find the writing a little oblique, so I could easily have missed something.

- miceelf

July 6, 2010 at 12:15pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

rhubarbs- politeness is exactly the problem. According to peretz, one shouldn't be polite to muslims. That's showing weakness.

- miceelf

July 6, 2010 at 12:16pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

miceelf: "What's your criticism of the review you linked?" NONE. I thought it incredibly honest, especially bringing in the "Protocols". My confusion is that the NYT OP-ED page, and news coverage, BLITHELY, WILLFULLY, IGNORE the realities of antisemitism in the Hamas Charter, Nasrallah's Hezbollah ideology, PA textbooks and television programming, and so on. Rather schizophrenic to find such a powerful essay on today's antisemitism in the New York Times. Not that surprising because the NYT editorial and news pages also ignore their Business journalists. seems the big press event Obama and Netanyahu, has been postponed until after the working lunch (assuming that is more than a Hebrew National hot dog stand... or that no one fainted from heat exhaustion)

- K2K

July 6, 2010 at 12:28pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

I'd go out on a limb here and say that space travel is one thing that still can excite and fascinate kids the world over. Although Noga's skeptical conceit of NASA opening up to ultra-orthodox rabbis and Buddhist monks is amusing, I'd also say that many powerful visions of the future (Star Trek being an obvious example) seem to draw their strength from the idea that we humans can in the longer term overcome our worldly conflicts to explore the universe together. Many people would argue that our non-scientific senses (including religious belief) are important for framing our scientific knowledge -- science by itself doesn't give us all human value. To that extent, I think I support as a goal what the NASA chief (and by implication the president) sketched out.

- ironyroad

July 6, 2010 at 12:42pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

come Noga, the guy was a former Astronaut, why would you expect nuance from him, he isn't a politician. If a politician said that, than by all means mock him, just cut Bolden some slack. This guy was a former Vietnam war vet, shuttle pilot, etc. who has dedicated his life to public service so from that angle I say ease off a bit. As Rhub points out he was just being polite, and I don't find anything offensive in what he said, I also don't think it will make the slightest bit of difference, but it won't hurt. And to call him out of his mind is bad form.

- blackton

July 6, 2010 at 2:35pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Noga, my problem is with eliding the differences, respectively, between "culture" and "society" and between "Muslim" and "Saudi" As a description of "saudi society", what you noted is perfectly defensible. But"Saudi society" and "Muslim culture" are very different things. And the islamic students in western universities are relevant to the question of culture, not the question of society. They leave Saudi (or Persian, or Egyptian) society behind. That doesn't at all mean taht they leave culture behind.

- miceelf

July 6, 2010 at 2:38pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

URUGUAY!!!!!!!!!!!! Forlan ties it before halftime! (and also gets my vote for best national anthem - delightful operetta, in a good way)

- K2K

July 6, 2010 at 3:14pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

The Arab contribution to science has been exaggerated-they acted as translators and compilers of what went before but their contributions were for all practical purposes nil. Turning NASA's chief into a feel-good flack isn't going to change history.

- kaboom

July 6, 2010 at 3:21pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"To that extent, I think I support as a goal what the NASA chief (and by implication the president) sketched out." You are really going out on a limb with this declaration.

- noga1

July 6, 2010 at 3:31pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

All right, miceelf, let me play a dirty trick. 1.4 billion Muslims. 14 million Jews. How many Nobel prizes went to Muslim physicists, scientists, authors? How many to Jewish physicists, scientists, authors? How many among those Jewish Nobelites came from Muslim countries? What do you infer from this data?

- noga1

July 6, 2010 at 3:37pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Noga, I'm pretty sure that if you asked most Americans, "Do you think that we should engage with other countries, including Arab/Muslim nations, to develop interest and participation in space exploration?" you would hear an unmistakeable yes. To that extent, I'm not really on a limb. But the issue is also that you can't just sit back and criticize the state of university education and scientific knowledge in other parts of the world -- you have to offer some opportunities and mechanisms for changing that state of affairs, even if only tentatively. NASA is a U.S. government agency, and its chief has the obligation to follow the president's lead in respect of contributing to a broader policy goal.

- ironyroad

July 6, 2010 at 3:41pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Islam is a parasitic civilization. Why does it deserve our help?

- amidut

July 6, 2010 at 3:47pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Noga, I infer nothing, but then I am not making sweeping claims about the inferiority/ superiority of broad claims. I could ask you the same thing about how many female s have received nobel prizes. What does that tell you about the inferiority/superiority of women?

- miceelf

July 6, 2010 at 4:05pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

make that "the inferiority/superiority of entire cultures" nice, amidut. Very clear.

- miceelf

July 6, 2010 at 4:06pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

ironyroad "Noga, I'm pretty sure that if you asked most Americans, "Do you think that we should engage with other countries, including Arab/Muslim nations, to develop interest and participation in space exploration?" you would hear an unmistakeable yes." Do you wanna bet, Irony? Most Americans are not masochists and wouldn't want some enraged Muslim space cadets blowing up their spacecraft over their town.

- jdyer

July 6, 2010 at 4:21pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

I'll bet. Americans can distinguish, I think, between real and speculative threats and we're talking here about education, training, and scientific exploration, not about Al Qaeda space cadets. Incidentally, NE-THER-LANDS!!!!!! That first goal was a beauty. But Uruguay went out in style (apart from that last unpleasant little scuffle at the whistle). They've no reason to feel too bad.

- ironyroad

July 6, 2010 at 4:38pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

I'll bet it would be real uncomfortable trying to get into a spacesuit while wearing a burqa.

- mgorvine

July 6, 2010 at 4:42pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"Noga, I infer nothing," Quite the contrary. Your answer suggests that you infer it is an issue of inferiority/superiority even though it was you who brought in the example of Muslim students doing well in Western universities. To me the lack of registerable achievement in the Muslim world it directly attributed to a culture of stultified thinking, lack of freedom, and disdain for human excellence. When individual Muslim human beings are exposed to, and participate in, the scholarly ethos of the West, they thrive. "[10] Letter - Spinoza to Isaac Orobio. “In this the Turks have achieved the greatest measure of success. They hold even discussion of religion to be sinful, and with their mass of dogma they gain such a thorough hold on the individual’s judgment that they leave no room in the mind for the exercise of reason, or even the capacity to doubt.” You can't have innovative thinking without doubt and without the freedom to question.

- noga1

July 6, 2010 at 4:52pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

ironyroad “I'll bet. Americans can distinguish, I think, between real and speculative threats and we're talking here about education, training, and scientific exploration, not about Al Qaeda space cadets.” Well, commission a poll and let’s see who is right, Irony. Incidentally, did you forget the Muslim doctor in Scotland who tried to blow up the airport a few years ago? “Glasgow car bomber: Doctor who tried to blow up nightclub and airport given 32 years” http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3812810/Glasgow-car-bomber-Doctor-who-tried-to-blow-up-nightclub-and-airport-given-32-years.html Or the Muslim psychiatrist who shot his fellow soldiers at Fort Hood: The Fort Hood shooting was a mass shooting that took place on November 5, 2009, at Fort Hood—the most populous US military base in the world, located just outside Killeen, Texas—in which a gunman killed 13 people and wounded 30 others.[2] “The accused perpetrator is Nidal Malik Hasan, a U.S. Army major serving as a psychiatrist. He was shot by Department of the Army Civilian Police officers,[3] and is now paralyzed from the waist down.[4] Hasan has been charged with 13 counts of premeditated murder and 32 counts of attempted murder under the Uniform Code of Military Justice; he may face additional charges at court-martial.[5][6]” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting Most Americans haven’t.

- jdyer

July 6, 2010 at 5:04pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

ironyroad mistakes my ironical comment. He reads it as if I really meant to say he went out on a limb with that declaration. What I meant was that it was exactly the kind of unquestioning support for Obama's simplistic solutions that goes down very well in this forum. Is it really the job of the president to instruct the head of NASA to engage with the Muslim world? In all this drooling over Obama's special concerns I don't see even one wee initiative to get the Muslim world to drop their antisemitic incitement from school curricula and media reports. Now that would be an achievement with palpable results. Perhaps he hopes that exposing the kids to the wonders of the universe will distract them from learning about perfidious Jews? Such priorities this president has. Mindboggling. Reminds me of Pollyanna playing the happy game: she didn't get the doll so she ended up being happy about the crutches she did get, because she didn't need them.

- noga1

July 6, 2010 at 5:06pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Miceelf, please learn more about Islam before declaring it the equal of the West or other major cultures. I concur with the foregoing comments that Muslims can thrive when taken out of Islam or when they liberate themselves from Islam.

- amidut

July 6, 2010 at 5:25pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

OK seriously - what about the mission of NASA? Is NASA supposed to be about space? Or is it actually an arm of the State Department or maybe, in charge of cultural affairs? And if so why is one culture/group of people more important than any other in the entire world? It would have been one thing to say, part of NASA's mission is to reach out to all the cultures of Earth, because the perspective from space shows us the beauty and smallness and uniqueness of our world, and how important it us for us to love each other and work together to save our planet and hopefully go beyond it. It would have been one thing to say, going forward, countries like Russia and the US (therefore NASA) will need help, financially and in terms of human resources, and would welcome participation from all the peoples and cultures of the world so that we can continue exploring space - together. This wasn't what was said however. Therefore, I think it's fair for Marty to mention it, particularly in context of other aspects of this administration's foreign policy. For example, BILL, not Secretary of State Hillary Clinton laid a wreath at a memorial for victims of the Armenian massacre. Obviously there are other examples particularly vis a vis Israel and regardless of the obvious Jewish contributions despite our small numbers and embattled situation. I personally feel concern that maybe the Jewish community is seen as just too small (and hated) vis a vis the huge global Muslim (and Christian) community, and it's being argued that Israel should be ditched by the US regardless of anodyne words to the contrary. This is actually being argued quite vigorously despite the "fact" that "the jooz control the media" and "the lobby" supposedly suppresses debate (right.) People actually refer to Israel as a "liability" now without any proof whatsoever that this is the case and regardless of moral and historical considerations, therefore, the argument goes, why not just sever ties with Israel in favor of schmoozing the Muslims? This is actually what occurred during the Chamberlain administration, just before WWII, and also during the Bevin administration, after WWII so there's form with this particular game and not only by the Brits. The fact that the UN's Arab member states were able to successfully isolate and single out Israel for approbation in the nuclear discussion is significant. Jones complained about the document but the US did sign it. Meanwhile, in London, there are attacks on Jewish businesses and a judge who threw an "activist" into jail for three years for decapitating a statue of Maggie Thatcher presided over a trial at which anti-Israel "activists" were let completely off the hook for causing a huge amount of damage: http://hurryupharry.org/2010/07/06/the-remarkable-judge-bathurst-norman/ http://hurryupharry.org/2010/07/06/anti-ahava-activists-%E2%80%93-a-case-study/ Now, it's been mentioned in these threads (mostly by Roi) that what happens in Britain isn't important to what happens in the US but that's patently untrue. British "activists" and propagandists are indeed significant and have a big effect on events in the Middle East and this obviously impacts America. Of course various evolutions of "The Great Game" impact America especially in re the oil industry. So? Are we seeing a pattern?

- Sophia

July 6, 2010 at 5:27pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

I'd be interested in the results for such a poll, JD. I'd also insist that the following question be included: -- Are you in favor of China and Russia being given a clear field to dominate exchange on space exploration with Arab and/or Muslim nations? Noga: "drooling"? Oh come on -- a tiny drop of saliva is not the same as being greeted by a friendly labrador. A bit of self-control in word-choice, please!

- ironyroad

July 6, 2010 at 5:32pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Sophia: "Now, it's been mentioned in these threads (mostly by Roi) that what happens in Britain isn't important to what happens in the US but that's patently untrue." Same for what goes on in the Palestine Mandate. Roid can't allow mere context to enter his little morally solipsistic universe.

- amidut

July 6, 2010 at 5:45pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

I meant to say to K2K about Uruguay's national anthem: Yes, an unexpected musical surprise, as I hadn't heard it before.

- ironyroad

July 6, 2010 at 6:02pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

ironyroad “I'd be interested in the results for such a poll, JD. I'd also insist that the following question be included: ‘Are you in favor of China and Russia being given a clear field to dominate exchange on space exploration with Arab and/or Muslim nations?’” Oh sure Irony, let’s have a poll in which you get to ask the question that will get you the answer you are looking for. Btw: I don’t know what this means, and I doubt most Americans would know what this means. “Are you in favor of China and Russia being given a clear field to dominate exchange on space exploration with Arab and/or Muslim nations?” If the Russians (the Chinese at this point are minor players) wish to waste their time setting up a partnership with the Muslims in exploring space, let them.

- jdyer

July 6, 2010 at 6:03pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"A bit of self-control in word-choice, please!" You didn't mind all that effluvia and scatology from your friend. Suddenly you are fastidious about a little drool. But you evade my question: I don't see even one wee initiative to get the Muslim world to drop their antisemitic incitement from school curricula and media reports. Shouldn't this be a much more urgent concern for the president?

- noga1

July 6, 2010 at 6:04pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Yes, the Uruguayan national anthem http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tyE2nWd9_Y&feature=related reminds me of a Verdi’s aria like “Va Pensiero” which almost became Italy’s national anthem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BZSqtqr8Qk&feature=related It’s also one of my favorite arias.

- jdyer

July 6, 2010 at 6:12pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

JD, you're not even trying to deal seriously with my comments. Let me know when you check back in. Noga -- I didn't say I minded the drool per se (see my labrador), but I don't drool So it's (a) an accuracy issue and (b) a friendly advice issue, as silly remarks don't add much to your argument. Other than that, I am very much in favor of not only the reduction of but also the elimination of antisemitism and racism, and I'm curious as to where I've ever implied the opposite, whether in relation to the "Muslim world" or any other damn place. If you find any evidence, let me know and I will immediately withdraw the remark(s).

- ironyroad

July 6, 2010 at 6:41pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Here is another version of Va Pensiero: "Verdi - Nabucco - Chorus of Hebrew Slaves" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD4gWvTXj44&feature=related

- jdyer

July 6, 2010 at 6:42pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

ironyroad "JD, you're not even trying to deal seriously with my comments. Let me know when you check back in." Come on, Irony. I take Verdi's Va pensiero very seriously. For the rest, it's too hot a day, here, to take Arab or Muslim space cadets seriously, btw.

- jdyer

July 6, 2010 at 6:45pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

You know what JD, I think you're probably right!

- ironyroad

July 6, 2010 at 6:59pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"Nabucco" was the first opera I saw. It was in grade 7 and our feisty music teacher, Mr. Oliver, took us to see it in the Israeli Opera House, which was located right across from Tel Aviv beach. The Opera house has since been converted to a small mall with coffee shops and boutiques that sell things of beauty that nobody I know can afford. BTW, jackson, did you know that Placido Domingo got his first break as a tenor in the Israel Opera? "In 1962, he married Marta Ornelas, an opera singer whom he had known from the conservatory. That year they moved to Tel Aviv, where they were engaged by the Hebrew National Opera. Over the two and a half years they remained in Tel Aviv, Domingo had the opportunity to hone his skills and broaden his repertoire. There he worked with international performers singing in many languages. Though he had spent his entire life on the stage, Tel Aviv was his first extended and public proving ground. " http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/episodes/placido-domingo/about-placido-domingo/573/ I love this aria: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyDfk9az2Kc

- noga1

July 6, 2010 at 7:01pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"BTW, jackson, did you know that Placido Domingo got his first break as a tenor in the Israel Opera?" Know I didn't, thanks for that.

- jdyer

July 6, 2010 at 7:20pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Jackson: "For the rest, it's too hot a day, here, to take Arab or Muslim space cadets seriously, btw." which is why I am grateful for the World Cup - an outstanding game today. The Dutch OrangeMen deserved the win, but one has to admire the spirit of Uruguay, and now I can look forward to the finals. The heat wave continues on Wednesday which happens to be my birthday, so I think I shall seek air conditioning instead of Germany v Spain. irony" "about Uruguay's national anthem: Yes, an unexpected musical surprise, as I hadn't heard it before." Me neither, and was so enthralled I was considering looking into emigrating to Uruguay. btw, my first exposure to opera was the film version of "Carmen" with Julia Migenes-Johnson (?) and Placido Domingo, so I guess we have now subverted NASA'a mission to engage the world of Islam - although I suspect trying to sell some space flights to rich oil sheikhs and/or test the waters for Sovereign Wealth Funds for a future privatization of NASA is not entirely out of the question.. ok, I admit to being on the edge of heat exhaustion just from the sweat while trying to integrate what i saw on tv between Obama and Netanyahu (who did mention Palestinian textbooks), and all the various interpretations.

- K2K

July 6, 2010 at 8:01pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

I was rooting for Uruguay and I am sorry they lost. None of the three remaining teams interst me.

- jdyer

July 6, 2010 at 8:07pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Amidut, once again, like several others here, you insist on a complete equivalence between being "in Islam" and living in an arabic state. There are hundreds of thousands of muslims in this country who go to mosque every week and continue to practice islam. They may have left [insert country here] but they haven't "left islam" necessarily. In any case, those are details, and as I said, you were being honest which is commendable. Others have of course taken a step further and noted their sincere belief that any acknowledgement of potential among muslims, of redeeming elements of their religion, or even of the possibility that they aren't inferior, is de facto evidence of anti-semitism. If you don't hate the Muslims, in other words, you must hate the Jews. While that equation doesn't make sense to me, it would explain a great deal here.

- miceelf

July 6, 2010 at 9:46pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

K2K, they don't have televisions in air conditioning available? in any case, enjoy your birthday.

- miceelf

July 6, 2010 at 9:48pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

miceelf "There are hundreds of thousands of muslims in this country who go to mosque every week and continue to practice islam. They may have left [insert country here] but they haven't "left islam" necessarily." Like you. Still, so what?

- jdyer

July 6, 2010 at 10:19pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

miceelf: thanks! this week, I am in the Berkshire Hills where no one needs a/c, but even we are hot and dry this week, especially in the afternoons. Excellent weather for harvesting hay, according to the local farmers. the night is coolling down nicely. But, need an "Escape from World News and Soccer; Must Shop for New Bathroom Day"!

- K2K

July 6, 2010 at 11:28pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Interesting review of Julius' book: "A Hatred That Resists Exorcism" By EDWARD ROTHSTEIN http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/books/06antisemtism.html?pagewanted=print "The result, Mr. Julius and Mr. Wistrich recognize, has been one of the most historically noxious forms of anti-Semitic mythology, which has also fed into political debates in the West and cannot be overlooked or easily dismissed. It is easy enough to discern when responsible criticisms of Israel veer into something reprehensible: the structure of anti-Semitic belief is not subtle. There is a wildly exaggerated scale of condemnation, in which extremes of contempt confront a country caricatured as the world’s worst enemy of peace; such attacks (and the use of Nazi analogies) are beyond evidence and beyond pragmatic political debate or protest. Israel’s autonomy — it’s very presence — is the problem. Mr. Julius writes, “Israel is the only state in the world whose legitimacy is widely denied and whose destruction is publicly advocated and threatened; Israelis are the only citizens of a state whose indiscriminate murder is widely considered justifiable.” But even if we leave aside such manifestations, it is clear enough that anti-Semitism requires much deeper understanding than it usually gets. Last week, for example, Hannah Rosenthal, the United States’ special envoy to monitor and combat anti-Semitism, spoke in Kazakhstan, asserting the similarity of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia. This is not an uncommon assertion (and cases of unwarranted discrimination are always similar) but Islamophobia is a concept developed within the last two decades by those who wish to elevate Islam’s reputation in the West; anti-Semitism was a concept eagerly embraced and expanded by haters of Jews. One was constructed by a group’s supporters, the other by a group’s enemies. Moreover, much of what is characterized as Islamophobia today arises out of taking seriously the impassioned claims of doctrinal allegiance made by Islamic terrorist groups and their supporters. Anti-Semitism, though, has nothing to do with any claims at all. "

- jdyer

July 7, 2010 at 12:43am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

The World of Science: "Prof. Rashad Al-Shami published a book in the World of Science series, titled The Jewish Character and the Hostile Spirit. This book demonstrates how deeply the hostile spirit is embedded in this character. It would be no exaggeration to say that the Koran noted this even earlier, when it talked about how they ignite civil strife and wars among people. This seems to be related to their nature. Psychological research is called for." http://mickhartley.typepad.com/blog/2010/07/psychological-research-is-called-for.html

- noga1

July 7, 2010 at 7:45am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"... say that, back in the 2008 campaign, you had remarked, “If Obama becomes president, he will demand that NASA devote itself to making Muslims feel good about their contributions to science.” You would have been called the worst and wildest kind of right-winger." http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MjhiYTk3ZmUxYzNlYjNiMTQxYjk5MzhhZGVhOTIwMTQ=

- noga1

July 7, 2010 at 12:39pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

But a fiction that nudges behavior in the right direction is a useful fiction. A classic example would be our belief that the criminal justice system in the United States is uniformly fair and uncorrupt. It's very often neither (although obviously far better than in many other places) but the very fact that we believe it to be so has the effect of making it bend toward its more ideal self. If we believed it to be unfair and corrupt at heart, it would tend that way. To that extent, a more widely held belief that the Islamic world contributed to science once can have the effect of getting young people to ask why it isn't contributing now.

- ironyroad

July 7, 2010 at 1:29pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

SHARE HIGHLIGHT

0 CHARACTERS SELECTED

TWEET THIS

POST TO TUMBLR

SHARE ON FACEBOOK

Close