THE SPINE JULY 23, 2010
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The brilliant young(ish) Catholic intellectual Michael Sean Winters has alerted us in the National Catholic Reporter to a venomous streak among “progressives” of the faith. The particularly repulsive iteration of this streak appeared in The American Catholic. Here is its essence:
Is the ultimate plan of the Israeli braintrust to find a rationale for one big war to ethnically cleanse most of the rest of the Palestinians into Jordan/Egypt/Lebanon et al?
Catholics have too much collective experience themselves in the ethnic cleansing of Jews to ever speculate on their intentions in this regard. Especially when the true historical record points, as it does, to the Arab abortion of the Arab state in Palestine envisioned in the United National Partition Plan resolution of November 29, 1947. This is once again but freshly documented by Efraim Karsh in Palestine Betrayed, published last year. Another indispensable source is Benny Morris who in 1988 published The Birth of the Palestine Refugee Problem and then in 2004 examined new evidence and fresh perspectives in The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited.
Both Karsh and Morris examine the details of the Arab abandonment of and expulsion from Palestine. The true story is simply too intricate to be call the Palestinian nakhba, a sleazy rip-off of the Holocaust.
Winters also has an interesting postscript about Jewish sensitivity to the dispossession of Muslims in Kosovo. It’s well worth reading.
72 comments
If you were a catholic, you'd be the mel gibson version.
- miceelf
July 23, 2010 at 3:47pm
Ouch, micelf.
- scrubby
July 23, 2010 at 4:44pm
Oooohhh - with respect miceelf I don't see that. From what I've been reading the above observations are not out of line. I do see an increasingly ugly streak among many Christians - Presbyterians, Methodists, even Quakers etc who purportedly are "progressive" but who seem to be echoing antisemitic memes as well as totally forgetting history, as MP points out. This is particularly true among British Protestants I think but it's affecting American denominations as well, some of which support openly antisemitic groups such as Sabeel. This goes hand in hand with the myth of Jesus the "Palestinian." It's also important to realize that only recently did Catholics absolve Jews - contemporary Jews - of personal guilt for the death of Jesus which, if he lived, occurred almost 2000 years ago. The fact that we could be held collectively responsible for something that may have happened 2000 years ago is astonishing on its face. But I don't think Eastern Christians have let us off the hook for that to this day and terms like "Christ killers" continues to be used by "progressives" like Hugo Chavez who can't be unaware that to Latin American Catholics the term resonates with historical ugliness and a history of real persecution. Using the Jew as a metaphor for "capitalist blood sucker" is an abominable tactic but it's definitely effective isn't it - it resonates with centuries of religious and historical and cultural prejudice: antisemitism in the service of socialism. I find that appalling and shameful and also frightening but it isn't the first time "progressives" have used Jews - the religiously based hatred of Jews - as a weapon. Thus antisemitic memes are brought into the context of a modern class/political war which has been sharpened by Chavez' association with Ahmadijenad who is nakedly antisemitic to the point of hosting Holocaust cartoon contests. This also raises the question of possible Catholic - even Vatican - involvement with the "rat lines" which apparently aided in the escape of Nazis from Europe. Many of course fled to Latin America, others - many others - to the Middle East. Among Christian denominations there are still those who continue to believe in "replacement covenant" or who consider themselves the "true Israel" and who as a religious/political tactic are just making s*** up about Eretz Israel, who are mixing old anti-Jewish memes with modern anti-Israel politics and who continue to employ lies about Israel and/or Jews in general including Jewish history, modern Middle Eastern history, the Talmud etc. Unfortunately it's impossible to draw a clear line between religious and political motives in most of these cases. Because of the power of religious imagery it's impossible therefore to separate fact from fantasy and create an atmosphere in which rationality will prevail over a conflict driven as much by dream as by reality. As a pertinent aside: the shameful editing of the Shirley Sherrod tape by Brietbart brought to mind some of the uglier tactics employed by anti-Israel bloggers and other writers and activists: one of their "weapons" is the misquote or incorrect quote or completely out-of-context quote, usually of Israeli or other Zionist leaders. These cast the ugliest possible light on Zionist history and motives, both past and present. From these generally false "facts" derive equally false conclusions about modern Israeli motives. Unfortunately, it's easy to post a fake or butchered or otherwise inaccurate quote or "fact" and very hard to comb through the internet and counter the damage. Shirley Sherrod was victimized before the "true facts" came out but at least in her case the evidence was readily at hand, the mass media exposed it, the President himself got involved; and people were forced to confront the facts. In the case of Israel, Jews, the Talmud etc who bothers doing the research and/or reading refutations of often bizarre assertions? It's easier just to believe the dark side. And unfortunately people do.
- Sophia
July 23, 2010 at 4:54pm
Sophia, I completely agree with your assessment of the history of anti-semitism within Christianity. My point was simply that Peretz is possessed of a similar hatred, it's simply that his is directed at others (in his case, primarily at Muslims, Arabs, and the Clintons).
- miceelf
July 23, 2010 at 5:44pm
>Catholics have too much collective experience themselves in the ethnic cleansing of Jews to ever speculate on their intentions in this regard. Facts are facts, Peretz, and while this Catholic is wrong, his Catholicism has nothing to do with his wrongness.
- egottlieb
July 23, 2010 at 6:33pm
Sophia: I'll call and raise your anecdotal to the contrary. Evangelicals, newer unaffiliated as well as old timey of Northern European origin Christians lean fairly hard con behalf of The Chosen People. That is a substantial chunk of North American Christians. None of these would ever be categorized as progressive. Nor would they want to be categorized as such. Perhaps somewhat paradoxically this support is accentuated as one moves farther away from the urban areas. Now it takes all kinds but I wouldn't write off the American Catholic in this regard either. The papacy and lieutenants don't hold the kind of sway they once had. I often find the congregants to be of a different conviction in spite of what any particular priest might or might not advocate.
- jacko
July 23, 2010 at 6:53pm
always a pleasure to read Sophia. What I fail to comprehend is why all these progressive Christians do not care about the cleansing and persecution of Arab Christians that has re-accelerated with Islamism. not willing to yet take the time to read the entire citation, but I guess there is a sign of evolutionary progress in the label "Israeli braintrust", i.e., Israelis are human beings with developed brains. One would think any Catholic would now know that there is a direct line between Spain's expulsion of the Jews in 1492 to the decline of the Spanish empire, which still continues today. miceelf: Mel Gibson makes better movies than Peretz writes blogposts. not a fair comparison :)
- K2K
July 23, 2010 at 7:07pm
miceelf, does MP really "hate" people or is he taking a political/argumentative point of view in order to counter what's becoming unfortunately a very common stance against Israel (not to mention growing antisemitism)? I do think it's vital not to stereotype though and I understand where you're coming from regarding the language in certain pieces. It's one thing to make a point; another to be deliberately (?) offensive. Anyway, I was reading Goldblog and couldn't believe what's been coming across via Walt and Mearscheimer especially the latter's paranoia - I was really shocked though sadly not at the ugliness of Goldberg's mail from M/W fans. Alas, this was inevitable once the spectre of a "cabal" was raised by apparently respectable academics. http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/07/from-stephen-walts-mailbag/60306/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/07/when-jew-baiters-go-wild/60272/ Also, egottlieb - are you sure that this particular Catholic's wrongness wasn't informed by his faith? Catholicism and other Christian denominations have a long history of anti-Jewish dogma and tradition do they not? That is the point of discussing the history and ongoing impact of Christian antisemitism. The religion itself is founded to some degree on anti-Jewish myth at least according the Gospels as they've come to be presented. This was greatly exacerbated by Rome of course once Christianity was adopted by the imperial religion. The presentation of Pilate alone is worthy of discussion. So I don't see how it doesn't affect individual Christians (and also Muslims) even today, although modern Christians often battle this and are trying to re-frame the argument, for example Vatican II although even that asserts that Jews pressed for the death of Christ. It's hard to undo nearly 2000 years of damage and the religiously sanctioned libel and repudiation of an entire people, who are damned even as Jewish books and traditions are subsumed into its powerful offshoot religions, which have aggressively sought converts. It's proving very difficult to unsnarl this from politics vis a vis Israel. In fact if anything, faith is increasingly becoming a weapon against Israel or perhaps we're just beginning to acknowledge that it's always been a significant problem. Also regarding religion and politics - the article in this issue of TNR about Henry Luce is on point about that and its effects on American foreign policy. This was especially pertinent to China and Vietnam - apparently "Time" presented the "facts" in order to paint a rosy picture of Chinese and Vietnamese leaders to the American people - but the Luce philosophy - the vision of America and our open-ended "mission" also appears to have resurrected itself during the Bush Administration. This is definitely a double-edged sword vis a vis Israel and also American and other Jews as per Chait on Kristol.
- Sophia
July 23, 2010 at 7:20pm
Hi K2K:) Jacko - yes I understand what you're saying about Evangelicals. However - I have some Evangelical Christians in my family via marriage and whereas they indeed host seders (because Jesus celebrated Passover of course) I have personally been instructed that the Haggadah is incorrect because it isn't the one Jesus used. My orthodox cousin, also present, wasn't amused as you can imagine:)
- Sophia
July 23, 2010 at 7:23pm
"..a telling moment at the Palestine International Festival in Ramallah. When 70s disco icons Boney M got up to do their thing, organizers of the festival asked them not to perform their traditional floorfiller, a cover of The Melodians number, “By the Rivers of Babylon.” Why? Because the song contains the words of Psalm 137: “Yea we wept/When we remembered Zion.” http://blog.z-word.com/2010/07/dread-zion/ I don't know why but the story seems to be ironically relevant to the story of Catholics chastising Jews for "ethnic cleansing". The story actually offers a few layers of irony.
- noga1
July 23, 2010 at 7:53pm
By the same token, this too should never be allowed to play on Palestinian stages: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BZSqtqr8Qk
- noga1
July 23, 2010 at 7:59pm
Old guy at bar: How's things pardners? Boney M: Ok, you know, survivin'. OGAB: Business good? BM: Can't complain. OGAB: Where y'all playing next? BM: Er . . . well, we have this gig in Ramallah. OGAB: Ramallah? Ain't heard of it. BM: Middle East. Palestinian territories. West Bank. [long silence] BM: Near Jerusalem. OGAB: I've heard of that. BM: It's an international festival . . . OGAB: Y'know fellas, I've heard some goshdarn hard-luck stories from musicians, but blame me if that doesn't beat the lot. Barman, I need a refill, and these guys need a drink, on me.
- ironyroad
July 23, 2010 at 8:27pm
Sophia, I can't speak to what' s in peretz's heart, but I am talking about his posts (i.e., public behavior) which suggests at best pretty profound bias. As I said, none of which has any bearing on the virulent and longstanding nature of antisemitism within Christianity. K2k- you can take our blogposts, but you'll never take- OUR FREEDOM!!!!
- miceelf
July 23, 2010 at 8:45pm
"PACBI has been heartened by the untiring efforts of BDS activists in the US and UK in organizing demonstrations and pickets at Leonard Cohen’s performances in advance of his planned concert in Tel Aviv later this summer. The call, “don’t Play Israel!” has been heard loud and clear. After exhausting all attempts to convince Cohen to apply his avowed humanistic principles in a morally consistent way by refusing to entertain Israeli apartheid and whitewash its crimes, we called on all supporters of a just peace in our region to shun Cohen‘s concerts and CDs and to protest his appearances everywhere. In an open letter to Cohen in May, we warned that we considered his performance in Israel a form of complicity in its grave violations of international law; we reminded him that by violating the Palestinian boycott against Israel he would bring back the ugly memory of artists who violated the boycott against apartheid South Africa and insisted to perform at Sun City, drawing condemnation and revulsion by people of conscience the world over [1]. We are now pleased to announce that we have received confirmation from the Palestinian Prisoners‘ Club Society that they will not be hosting Leonard Cohen in Ramallah. A strong consensus has emerged among all parties concerned that Cohen is not welcome in Ramallah as long as he insists on performing in Tel Aviv, even though it had been claimed that Cohen would dedicate his concert in Palestine to the cause of Palestinian prisoners. Ramallah will not receive Cohen as long as he is intent on whitewashing Israel‘s colonial apartheid regime by performing in Israel. " http://bdsmovement.net/?q=node/467
- noga1
July 23, 2010 at 8:55pm
ok, backlinking through Michael Sean Winters to the offending piece, it was about that Netanyahu 1997 YouTube. Considering the eclectic list of "The American Catholic" contributors (it is not obvious they are "progressives"), very odd that not one of them signed their name to the critique. So, Peretz takes a quote from an online community with zero connection to the Catholic Church, and rabble-rouses from there. He really should start spending his vacations in Hindu or Buddhist resorts, and stay away from Spain, or Greece, or any of the many places he bashes with a kneejerk reflex that reflects badly on The New Republic. Such far-ranging prejudices are, as the British would say, most unhelpful, to Israel and Jews. I can not believe anyone in Israel would put Peretz in a classroom with real students. He is like a bizarro-world Mearsheimer, trading on a reputation (I assume he once had one) no longer deserved.
- K2K
July 23, 2010 at 8:59pm
"I can't speak to what' s in peretz's heart, but I am talking about his posts (i.e., public behavior) which suggests at best pretty profound bias." Would you be in a rush to speak of a strong bias felt by Black Americans against white people before the civil rights movement? Am I biased against Arabs? Arabs have been seeking to destroy Israel, my country, since before I was born and have not given up yet. Arabs have been generating some of the most hair-raising conspiracies and myths about Israelis and Jews. These are not isolated cases of nutters. These are the elites, the mainstream media, the clerics, the teachers, the journalists. They say and they incite and they slander and they connive yet we, Israelis and our Jewish supporters are supposed to respond with sweets and flowers and pretend that we are not aware of all that. Here is one Arab American comparing Netanyahu to a vampire and suggesting he needs to be killed by driving a stake through his heart. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=771PNZLLZZI What do you call him? Has Marty ever ever said anything ever remotely hateful as that about any Arab leader?
- noga1
July 23, 2010 at 9:04pm
I'd say that Leonard Cohen can probably survive a de-invitation from Ramallah and it's very stupid on the part of the Palestinians. It's obvious he was/is going to play in Israel anyhow and they are losing a chance to get a fairly high-profile Jewish artist to hear them out. But it's worth thinking about what songs/lyrics he might have been asked to drop.
- ironyroad
July 23, 2010 at 9:09pm
miceelf: my previous comment was written with no knowledge of your inspiring Mel Gibson as Braveheart comment :) and I was going to thank Jennifer Lopez for cancelling her concert in Northern Cyprus until I read noga's post about Leonard Cohen's dilemma. There really is something wrong with too many people these days. May they all go watch some cute kitten videos on YouTube. What will all these boycott-loving activists do when they read how happy the population of Gaza is to again have access to Israeli beverages? "RAFAH CITY, Gaza -- After a three-year absence from the store shelves of Gaza, a popular Israeli juice called Tibuzina reappeared recently, only to disappear again in less than an hour. Eager residents, it turned out, had called each other excitedly and rushed to the supermarket. Some got the word but showed up too late. The juice was gone. ..." http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/07/an-end-to-gazas-literally-underground-economy/60066 [Tibuzina is apparently NOT the correct name]
- K2K
July 23, 2010 at 9:09pm
Leonard Cohen played in Israel last year. It's old news. "Unlike the cancellation of Leonard Cohen's concert in Ramallah, which got a lot of press, the cancellation of conductor and pianist Daniel Barenboim's visit to the West Bank city has been kept almost secret. Both cancellations were spurred by different Palestinian groups which warned against what they described as the normalization with the occupation and with Israel. " "But a great share of the criticism, especially heard in the streets of Ramallah and in e-mail circulation, was directed at Barenboim himself. The criticism focused on three articles he has published over some years, particularly in his latest piece published by the British Guardian during the height of Operation Cast Lead. His critics accused him of referring to Israel's offensive in Gaza as an act of "self defense." http://www.haaretz.com/news/palestinian-anger-with-barenboim-prompts-him-to-cancel-ramallah-visit-1.266834
- noga1
July 23, 2010 at 9:25pm
K2K, you may be gratified to know that Peretz was put in a classroom with American students, until recently. In any case, I give you this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAOFi7DynFg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Kyi0WNg40
- miceelf
July 23, 2010 at 10:17pm
Sophia: I have personally been instructed that the Haggadah is incorrect because it isn't the one Jesus used. Well I guess you should get it right then... :) You should know that I am just kidding. Really... some 'issues' which are created along these lines lie somewhere far beyond silliness.
- jacko
July 23, 2010 at 11:10pm
miceelf: thank you, but I still use dial-up, saving me from watching cute kitten videos on YouTube (NYT has an amusing article on how the cumulative time spent watching dogs and cats on YouTube is directly responsible for the decline of the West.) http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/24/arts/television/24dogs.html Rumor has it that Comcast is finally wiring Main Street, but I can not yet watch YouTube links. I realized I was harshly judgmental in my last comment, but I do wish Peretz would stop "pulling a Breitbart" with his posts. A bit too many North Korean-style tantrums. btw, in a different thread, I wrote the USNavy was about to conduct war games in the Yellow Sea. It is the Sea of Japan this weekend. The Yellow Sea exercise was finally called off, but it would appear the U.S. wants the world's eyes in East Asia this week, what with all the bad news elsewhere. Which is why people watch cute kitten videos.
- K2K
July 24, 2010 at 9:40am
K2K, the first vid is a release about Peretz addressing students at Brandeis. Irony points- near the end he says " we're resisting the drift to cutting everything up into small pieces and not really thinking in tough and demanding ways" The second video is not a cute kitten, but its nemesis the dramatic prairie dog
- miceelf
July 24, 2010 at 10:23am
07/23/2010 - 7:20pm EDT | Sophia "was really shocked though sadly not at the ugliness of Goldberg's mail from M/W fans." Me too, but I think Jeffrey Goldberg hits the bullseye in that post with "I [Goldberg] tend to think that when you're accusing someone of Jew-hatred, you should spend some time amassing the evidence. I prefer to focus on the attempts of the bloggers themselves, rather than their camp followers, to marginalize and demonize Jews. On the other hand, though, I was quoted in the piece arguing that these blogs do, in fact, help bring to the surface all kinds of ugly commentary, and I do tend to think that there is a link between the quality of the blog and the quality of those who read the blog." Does The Spine contradict Goldberg's assessment, i.e., are TNR readers of higher quality (insight, intellect, and usually courtesy and good humour) than The Spine? TNR and The Spine, whether they like it or not, are part of the Commentary-Contentions/Goldblog/Lee Smith-TabletMag "team" that challenges the alternate universe of Walt/schMearsheimer/Chompsky/Greenwald/DailyKos when it comes to anything, but especially Jew-hatred and Israel-bashing-double-standard. TNR: more amassing of evidence, less flamethrowing please.
- K2K
July 24, 2010 at 10:27am
miceelf: thanks. Guess Peretz forgets what he said at Brandeis about "thinking in tough and demanding ways" when he posts in The Spine :) Prairie dogs are cute too. Not as cute as Meerkats or Golden Retrievers - Ford is now selling Silverado pickup trucks by using a Golden to let you know the warranty in dog years - just saw that online ad at WashPo.
- K2K
July 24, 2010 at 10:34am
Speaking of Catholics, a blogpost, "Our Lady of Blockade Busting", written and researched by J E Dyer, who often posts at Contentions, about the upcoming Lebanon-to-Gaza flotilla: "...the ship that is to leave from Beirut has been given the name Maryam, for Mary the mother of Jesus Christ, and will reportedly carry only women as passengers (presumably the crew is male). At least half of the 50-some women in the group are Christians, and an unspecified number are nuns. ...But the Lebanese nuns are Maronites, a denomination of Roman Catholic Christianity. The indications would suggest that they have the approval of their spiritual authorities – ... There is enough of an implication that the Church endorses the Maryam initiative for the Vatican to intervene – as Israel’s diplomats have asked it to... the likelihood of a non-dramatic outcome for Maryam doesn’t excuse the Church’s leadership for its apparent hands-off, de facto endorsement of a project that qualifies as not just ill-advised but “a-Christian.” ..." http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2010/07/22/our-lady-of-blockade-busting/
- K2K
July 24, 2010 at 10:53am
Maybe they are hoping for a few converts? I don't know what's happened since, but when I was a kid the whole business of gaining a few more pagans (Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, whatever) for Holy Mother Church was considered quite important. Then this irritating liberal fudge about "respecting" (!) other people's faiths came in after Vatican II. "Hamas chief baptized, makes pilgrimage to Lourdes" would be quite a headline.
- ironyroad
July 24, 2010 at 3:37pm
miceelf: the juxtaposition of the two videos is a gratuitous, ugly and stupid insult rendering you the exemplification of the very thing you complain about in Peretz. Oh yeah, let me add the adjective jejune.
- basman
July 24, 2010 at 5:13pm
I am a little late to this, but as a Catholic I can state I find the idiocy of these statements of "ethnic cleansing" to be wrong on its face. to quote egottlieb above: "Facts are facts, Peretz, and while this Catholic is wrong, his Catholicism has nothing to do with his wrongness." I will be damned though if I were to be rendered mute because of past Catholic injustices. I was against ethnic cleansing of Moslems in Kosovo, am I forbidden to speak out about that? If I believed for a moment that Israel had the desire to ethnically cleanse I would not hesitate to speak out against it, injustices done by my ancestors in no way inoculates anyone from criticism of your own. And only a fool would say "it can never happen here." I personally believe that the vast majority of Israelis themselves know this and would not allow it to happen for this reason. This reminds me that perhaps Marty is more Catholic than I am in that he believes in infallibility. And for the love of God, there is no collective experience for this. Because my ancestors were driven out of Ireland I now have some supposed inherent memory of this persecution?
- blackton
July 24, 2010 at 9:50pm
irony: remember that unwelcome in Turkey for the Eisenhower? They got a nicer shore leave in Naples, Italy, and now on their way home. And, the Marines that were part of that alleged naval armada just entered the Mediterranean. I guess Yemen settled down.
- K2K
July 24, 2010 at 11:43pm
miceelf “If you were a catholic, you'd be the mel gibson version.” This is about as loathsome and bigoted a comment as I have read in a long time. If miceelf were a progressive Catholic you’d be writing as you do.
- jdyer
July 24, 2010 at 11:52pm
miceelf "Sophia, I completely agree with your assessment of the history of anti-semitism within Christianity. My point was simply that Peretz is possessed of a similar hatred, it's simply that his is directed at others..." "Similar hatred?" Who is paying you to post this crap? Mel Gibson and Miceelf do share a hatred and it's of people like Marty.
- jdyer
July 24, 2010 at 11:59pm
K2K: Good to hear. Ah Naples! The only city in Europe where it's safer not to be sober when driving.
- ironyroad
July 25, 2010 at 1:22am
Welcome back, jdyer, good to see you haven't changed. Still assuming criticism of Peretz represents something else.
- miceelf
July 25, 2010 at 8:03am
basman: huh? prairie dogs mean what, now?
- miceelf
July 25, 2010 at 8:08am
blackton, I suspect you're speaking to deaf ears here.
- miceelf
July 25, 2010 at 8:13am
Blackton: "I will be damned though if I were to be rendered mute because of past Catholic injustices." Yet here is what Marty says: "Catholics have too much collective experience themselves in the ethnic cleansing of Jews to ever speculate on their intentions in this regard. " Only the willfully obtuse (like miceelf) will miss the meaning of this statement and I don't include Blackton in this category. What he says is this: Catholics have in their history some very real events that actually took place in which Jews were expelled from Catholic-dominated countries (1492 comes to mind). With that kind of historical knowledge it is highly poor form for any Catholic to slander Israel with the specualtive accusation that it plans to carry out ethnic cleansing of its own. They should know the difference between a real recorded and historically-verifiable event and mere malicious speculation which has no basis in anything Israeli Jews do or say. The question is, why would anyone ask such an evil question as this: "Is the ultimate plan of the Israeli braintrust to find a rationale for one big war to ethnically cleanse most of the rest of the Palestinians into Jordan/Egypt/Lebanon et al?" Here is what it's like: Ahmed and Ronen are neigbours who do not like each other very much. Charlie lives across the street and likes Ahmed and does not like Ronen, for whatever reason. Charlie comes from a family whose great uncle and one second cousin were sentenced to time in jail for being child molesters. Charlie knew heard about the victims (who happened to be distantly related to Ronen's family) and knew the sentences to be justified. But Charlie likes Ahmed and dislikes Ronen. One day Charlie looks out of his window and sees Ronen hugging his 6 year old daughter as she comes home from the swimming pool still in her bathing suit. Charlie calls child protection services to inform them that he thinks his neighbour Ronen is molesting his 6 year old daughter. What do you make of Charlie's action? Is it justified? With the kind of knowledge and shame he lives with concerning his own family history, should he be in a rush to speak about Ronen as a would-be child molester, based on no proof at all except his own ill-will towards Ronen? Why would any self-aware and reasonably knowledgeable Catholic (or any Christian, or any human being for that matter) put forth such a malicious theory?
- noga1
July 25, 2010 at 8:57am
noga this: What he says is this: Catholics have in their history some very real events that actually took place in which Jews were expelled from Catholic-dominated countries (1492 comes to mind). With that kind of historical knowledge it is highly poor form for any Catholic to slander Israel with the specualtive accusation that it plans to carry out ethnic cleansing of its own. They should know the difference between a real recorded and historically-verifiable event and mere malicious speculation which has no basis in anything Israeli Jews do or say. Is vastly superior to this: If I Were A Catholic, I Wouldn’t Rush To Accuse The Jews Of Ethnic Cleansing and this: Catholics have too much collective experience themselves in the ethnic cleansing of Jews to ever speculate on their intentions in this regard. What you said I have no problem with because it is clear and non accusatory (in a generalized sense). Stating we know better (or should) is superior to saying we have no right. I still think at some point history be damned and we must look at facts as they are and I see zero evidence of any Israeli government policy of ethnic cleansing. The facts should be vindication enough (at least for me they are) so there are few reasons to bring religion into it, especially in the bombastic manner that Marty did. Well reasoned historical context is fine (as you did) is fine since it advances the argument.
- blackton
July 25, 2010 at 9:52am
"I still think at some point history be damned and we must look at facts as they are and I see zero evidence of any Israeli government policy of ethnic cleansing. " Exactly. So why the "Rush To Accuse The Jews Of Ethnic Cleansing" by some people who are Catholic and claim or believe they know history and know what a fact is, what speculation based on some concrete evidence is and what mere slander is? Is it that Israel's highly propagandized image as the epitome of evil is now the deciding factor in what people feel they can about it, with impunity? If Catholics are averse to having their own history quoted back to them how do you think Israeli Jews should feel when they are being falsely accused of plots and deeds that are mere malign lies and slanders?
- noga1
July 25, 2010 at 10:23am
miceelf “Welcome back, jdyer, good to see you haven't changed. Still assuming criticism of Peretz represents something else.” Screw you, miceelf, you never miss an opportunity to attack Peretz gratuitously. Marty isn’t like Mel Gibson and wouldn’t be no matter what religious he practiced. You on the other hand are a “kinder softer version” of Mel Gibson which is to say more hypocritical and odious. You are also a dummy who misunderstood what Blakton said.
- jdyer
July 25, 2010 at 10:43am
The same goes for scrubby who is the kind of guy who would sit around and snicker and snigger during a pogrom.
- jdyer
July 25, 2010 at 10:46am
Zakaria's GPS today has a too-short (imo) discussion on Afghanistan with Richard Haass, Bret Stephens, and George Packer. No one was grumpy.
- K2K
July 25, 2010 at 10:52am
"You on the other hand are a “kinder softer version” of Mel Gibson which is to say more hypocritical and odious. " Gibson is such a visible lion he does not scare me one little bit. (In a safari excursion I took at Kruger Park many years ago we were told: a visible lion is a safe lion. Why? Because it's the hungry lions on the prowl for prey that are dangerous to one's health and they are not visible, they crouch among the tall grass..) And he has some redeeming features; he is still good looking and to me gives the impression of being a bad boy desperate for some attention however negative. I mean, being caught repeating classic canards about Jews followed by addressing the only female policewoman present as "sugar tits" produces a confounding melange of malice, leering and brattiness which quite frankly I don't know exactly how to interpret.
- noga1
July 25, 2010 at 10:59am
noga, as I said I am not averse to having proper historical context framed in an educational way (which is what you did) as opposed to thrown back at whole groups, especially when the guilty parties are cranks and misfits that don't represent the religion. And lets face it, their being Catholic is incidental. There is nothing in the Sunday school catechism about Israel. Of course I will not deny that the church hierarchy in the past has been guilty, I also do not believe that represents Catholicism either. The frustrating thing is even when facts are on our side you still can not get through. I have gotten into long debates at, of all places, Frumforum defending Israel. It is an open site so it has its share of cranks, but even when I present clear evidence it is still denied. For example someone claimed that Hamas supports the Saudi peace plan, I said no and provided a link to a western news journal where a Hamas leader repudiated the plan, the person then claimed that the translation was faulty, so I then went onto an Arab web site and posted an exact quote, in Arabic, of some Hamas leader deriding the Saudi peace plan, then the person said that since they don't speak Arabic they had no way of knowing what it said (even though I provided an English translation directly below). After that I gave up.
- blackton
July 25, 2010 at 11:25am
Gimme' a break Miceelf and stop playing the naif. By juxtapoing the 2 videos, you were comparing Peretz to a rodent. Prost and poshit.
- basman
July 25, 2010 at 11:46am
basman, I do believe miceelf posted the prairie dog video in response to my citation of the NYT (television section) on how watching cute kitten videos on YouTube is causing the decline of the West. Two YouTubes, addressing two different comments, posted in the same comment, no doubt to save electrons. blackton just gave a good metaphor for the dilemma of unfreezing frozen conflicts. if the mind is frozen on a belief, what can possibly defrost it? I have had similar frustrations in the Israel Lobby debate, although I can usually get the most close-minded to agree the Cuba Lobby and the NRA are equally powerful :) on to North Korea...
- K2K
July 25, 2010 at 12:12pm
Thanks, K2K, but I suspect it will do no good. You're witinessing a different form of bullying a la basman and jdyer.
- miceelf
July 25, 2010 at 12:30pm
basman is a bully!?
- ironyroad
July 25, 2010 at 1:47pm
miceelf "Thanks, K2K, but I suspect it will do no good. You're witinessing a different form of bullying a la basman and jdyer." Look who is talking about Bullies, meceef, the would be gentleman bigot. He is not a new phenomenon, the soft spoken person who is also a Jew hater. In Europe they are known as white gloved antisemites.
- jdyer
July 25, 2010 at 2:16pm
miceelf just can't resist attacking Peretz, even if there was no provocation. The fact that Marty exists drives him nuts.
- jdyer
July 25, 2010 at 2:18pm
...basman is a bully!?... I want your lunch money tomorrow, Ironyroad, or I'm going to lay you out just the way I did Miceellf, holding all prairie kittens--nice name for rodents-- against you. Here's a great hour right at this moment: Eleanor Wachtel first replaying an old 1/2 hour interview with Joseph Brodsky and about to replay another 1/2 hour with Saul Bellow. CBC Radio 2. It's enough not to let a guy get to the work he's been putting off all weekend. Plus, my youngest daughter just found out that she passed the Ontario bar exams, first time round, too--she can work in any saloon now in the province as well taking a step towards practicing law here.
- basman
July 25, 2010 at 3:40pm
yes, dislike of Peretz must be motivated by anti-semitism. There can be not other reason.
- miceelf
July 25, 2010 at 3:48pm
I'm bringing along my big brother, basman, fair warning! Congrats on your daughter's success. I wonder if this qualification bears the same relationship to saloon bar work as a philosophy PhD does to cab driving? That is, ideal and unavoidable.
- ironyroad
July 25, 2010 at 4:06pm
sorry, basman, that was unfair, shouldn;'t have taken the temporal proximity for anything other than it was. Was taken aback by the rodent accusation- perhaps betraying my affinity for the slacker generation, but the dramatic prairie dog is an expression of amazement and dismay- to the extent to which the two videos go together, the prairie dog was meant to portray not peretz but a viewer of the first video, say, me, or K2K if he ever gets his internet connection into the 21st century. much harm is done when we impute the ethics of one person to those of another who happens to agree on a particular issue. but lumping together people who don't belong together based a single commonality is a form of violence, one I dislike in others, and for that I apologize. That, and anyone whose relatives live/work in Canada, has a point in their favor, especially if said relative is in law(!!!)
- miceelf
July 25, 2010 at 4:35pm
"much harm is done when we impute the ethics of one person to those of another who happens to agree on a particular issue." HEAR HEAR!! If I may.
- ironyroad
July 25, 2010 at 4:50pm
sorry, should be "...and lumping together..." not "...but lumping together..."
- miceelf
July 25, 2010 at 4:53pm
And I'd add motivation to the ethics. Two people who don't really share any values or political positions, but who agree on a particular issue, may have completely different motives for referring to that issue in discussion.
- ironyroad
July 25, 2010 at 4:54pm
Agreed, Irony. Thanks.
- miceelf
July 25, 2010 at 5:05pm
miceelf "yes, dislike of Peretz must be motivated by anti-semitism. There can be not other reason." When Peretz posts a comment on a "progressive" Catholic antismetic aticle and you attack for it, then yes, you are motivated by rank Jew hatred. Not that you will ever admit it. Honesty is not to your taste. You are also a first class hyocrite.
- jdyer
July 25, 2010 at 5:48pm
"much harm is done when we impute the ethics of one person to those of another who happens to agree on a particular issue. but lumping together people who don't belong together based a single commonality is a form of violence, one I dislike in others, and for that I apologize." The excuses of a self righteous bigot too.
- jdyer
July 25, 2010 at 5:49pm
I mean miceelf, of course.
- jdyer
July 25, 2010 at 5:50pm
in response to 07/25/2010 - 12:30pm EDT | miceelf : yes. I know. code word changed to Grumpy :) Back to Robert Kaplan's "Eastward to Tartary: Travels in the Balkans, the Middle East, and the Caucausus" circa 1998. the good old days when the big fear of the Arab world "filled with one-man crumbling regimes...[where the post-Ottoman] 'state' was a European-imposed mechanism that now allowed one tribe to dominate another...", when the big fear was of the Turkey-Israel alliance. Just getting to the Maronite Catholics of Lebanon, chapter titled "The Corporate Satellite" [of Assad, senior's Alawite-controlled Greater Syria]
- K2K
July 25, 2010 at 6:45pm
K2K, ah, the good old days. If only....
- miceelf
July 25, 2010 at 6:58pm
Hey, I was younger and thinner then too! Political nostalia is not unlike personal. November 9, 1989 I was in a bar in West Berlin, two subway stations from Checkpoint Charlie.
- ironyroad
July 25, 2010 at 7:04pm
This belongs here too: Here is another example of progressive antisemitism! "Stone for a brain" http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2010/07/stone-for-a-brain.html "There's an interview with Oliver Stone in today's Sunday Times, and therefore behind the paywall. Those of you without a sub will just have to take my word for it that he comes across as a not very likeable sort of chap; and my impression is that this is also the impression of his interviewer Camilla Long, although I may be wrong about that. Oliver Stone doesn't seem like a man I would want to count among my friends. Despite this, I will put such personal impressions and inclinations to one side, and try to judge him in a detached way on the basis of his quoted words. And on this basis I would say that his opinions are contemptible and brutish. Here are just two or three of them: He describes America's attitude to Iran as "horrible". "Iran isn't necessarily the good guy" - his incongruously dark eyebrows shoot up - "but we don't know the full story!" Ahhh, those hidden facts which might throw a different light on the repression of Iranian oppositionists, on the rapes and the tortures. The 10-part documentary [which Stone is planning] will address Stalin and Hitler "in context", he says. "Hitler was a Frankenstein but there was also a Dr Frankenstein. German industrialists, the Americans and the British. He had a lot of support." He also seeks to put his atrocities in proportion: "Hitler did far more damage to the Russians than the Jewish people, 25 or 30m." Why such a focus on the Holocaust then? "The Jewish domination of the media," he says. "There's a major lobby in the United States. They are hard workers. They stay on top of every comment, the most powerful lobby in Washington. Israel has f***** up United States foreign policy for years." No one who has taken any close interest in the history of the Second World War could be unfamiliar with the extent of Russian suffering and death under German occupation. So 'more damage to the Russians than the Jewish people' is a purely apologetic trope, since at that level of human catastrophe the insistence on maintaining a sense of proportion about five to six million Jewish dead is a plain attempt to diminish. And what follows that is then standard anti-Semitism: the Jews control the media and they work hard at it; and this is what accounts for the focus on the Holocaust (rather than any features of the genocide itself). As I said, and without regard to Stone's personal qualities: contemptible and brutish."
- jdyer
July 25, 2010 at 8:06pm
Oliver Stone has always been an overrated director. Based on the interview, he's also stupid and/or evil, probably both. His recent ass-kissing of various central american autocrats was pretty embarrassing. I'd hope that most progressives wouldn't claim him.
- miceelf
July 25, 2010 at 8:20pm
irony: Not meaning to diminish your 1989 Berlin moment, but Robert Kaplan made his trip in 1998, not 1989. He starts in Hungary before his travels through the post-Ottoman geography of the post-Soviet Cold War era to Romania and Bulgaria, then Turkey and Syria and Lebanon - I have not gotten to Israel or the Caucausus. 1998 is a much better launch point to try to understand what the heck has happened that has led us to where we are today. Well, at least for me, as I try to decipher Turkey, Syria, and the Kurds in 2010. Which reminds me it is time to get offline and back to the mountain strongholds of the Lebanese Christians. Druse to follow.
- K2K
July 25, 2010 at 8:27pm
Incidentally, Christopher Hitchens has an excellent piece on the subject of Marty's above post in the new issue of Free Inquiry. Here is the opening paragraph: "The sound of collapsing scenery from the general direction of the Vatican is defeaning enough, but it is nothing compared with the screeching noises given off by the pope's apologists. One gets the sense that some sort of desperate 'line of the day' was promulgated around the time of Easter and that it was agreed among the Church's loyal 'intellectuals' that the way to go was to accuse their critics of anti-Semitism." You can read the rest at http://secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=fi&page=jewbaiter I love Chris Hitchens. I hope he pulls through his battle with cancer.
- drheingold
July 26, 2010 at 7:39am
The rest of my post got cut off: I love Chris Hitchens. I hope he pulls through his battle with cancer.
- drheingold
July 26, 2010 at 7:41am
Me too, Dr. H. what a bizarre comparison. Kind of like Glenn Beck comparing himself to Martin Luther King.
- miceelf
July 26, 2010 at 8:26am
Like the Duff Gardens attendant said to Selma Bouvier, "Oh, I'm not a doctor." It's my first initial and last name. You should see some of the spam I get.
- drheingold
July 27, 2010 at 1:08am
"Reporter: We asked about these dialysis units, standing in a corner of the warehouse, which had arrived in one of the aid convoys. Why are they not taken to the hospitals? Gaza Health Ministry official Bassam Barhoum: These devices were past their expected life span when we got them. In other words, all operational hours were used up in their country of origin. Reporter: These are disintegrating machines, and medicines that have passed their expiry date by months and even years. They arrive here without any supervision, under the slogan of breaking the siege on Gaza, the population of which is grateful for any initiative to support it. But here, we face a different story with regard to donations. Mounir Al-Boursh: These burial shrouds were donated to us. This shroud is 125 cm long. It is deplorable that our Arab brothers are sending burial shrouds for the children of Gaza. Reporter: While they await the medicines that they really need, the workers are busy loading these medicines, on their way to the garbage dumps rather than to hospitals. In Gaza, the decomposition of these medicines creates a huge problem, in the absence of incinerators or designated places. Even if the sick are saved from this medicine, the environment will definitely not be spared their perils and catastrophic effects, above and below the ground. " http://mickhartley.typepad.com/blog/2010/07/on-their-way-to-the-garbage-dumps.html
- noga1
July 27, 2010 at 8:51am