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Go Home Skip The Lectures On Israel's "Risks for Peace"

THE SPINE AUGUST 20, 2010

Skip The Lectures On Israel's "Risks for Peace"

BY MARTIN PERETZ

I don't know whether this is George Will's title. But it certainly is his column, published in this morning's Washington Post.

It doesn't need my commentary. But I can't resist one observation: it is devastating to all of those who try to be even-handed when even-handedness actually is a lie.

 

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62 comments

There has barely been a time in Israel's short history when it has not been engaged in fighting for the survival of its people, and dying in that struggle in numbers that would probably have caused other nations either to pack it up and slink away, or if capable of it, infllict horrendous damage upon its adversaries. In its War of Independence, one percent of Israel's population was killed. Because death is the affair of the living, it is reasonable to consider its casuaties in this way, as Will does. To compare, think of 3 million Americans killed. In the years after independence, about 50 Israelis were killed each year, by Mujahideen raids from Egypt. Its population was growing fast during that period, but still using a rough figure of 3 million total, one might consider 5,000 Amercian deaths, year in and year out, and contemplate what action we would have taken in response. It is understandable that a nation that has made such awful sacrifices in the cause of survival, might not want to waste that sacrifice in favor of becoming once again, a minority in a larger state dominated by a people who have taught its children for decades to hate them, and to celebrate the deaths of its children. That is, Tony Judt, I hope you do not RIP.

- Goggins

August 20, 2010 at 2:26pm

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This is a pretty strong piece. I hope a lot of people read it.

- Sophia

August 20, 2010 at 6:36pm

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If you were told you 18 years ago at Oslo that the Palestinians and Israelis would have no Peace in 2010 it would not be a surprise. However, if you were told Iran would be starting up it's first nuclear reactor, this would have seemed incredible. The current arc of events gives Iran atomic weapons long before the Palestinitans agree to any peace agreement. I am struggling with why the Obama Adinistration anounced another round of Peace Negotiations the day before Russia starts up Iran's reactor. It smells of a red herring.

- CRS9TNR

August 20, 2010 at 7:03pm

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I think Obama might be trying to pull the rug out from under Iran's raison d'etre in Lebanon and among the Palestinians. If a peace accord can be reached then what's the excuse for Hezbollah and Hamas - especially if they're backed by a nuclear state?

- Sophia

August 20, 2010 at 7:44pm

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Now that there's talk of peace, count on some Jews getting murdered.

- Goggins

August 20, 2010 at 7:56pm

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I didn't find it powerful. It is the piling up of a now standard set up tropes in favor of stasis. Will offers nothing about what Israel could or might do to advance its own cause. That is undoubtedly the reason the piece appeals to Peretz. It is Peretz's style too to complain of one thing or another or to point out something or other that is disturbing or even appalling without any ability to advance an argument about what should or should not be done in that light. You could tack onto the very end of Will's column whatever right-wing nostrum you liked -- don't negotiate, strangle Gaza, keep settling the West Bank, build apartments, wait for an Arab Ben Gurion, nuke Iran -- and the right would think it a perfectly sensible argument for that conclusion.

- roidubouloi

August 21, 2010 at 9:22am

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roid - I truly wonder what it would take for you to empathize even briefly with the existential situation of an Israel surrounded by well armed sworn enemies with widely announced hostile intentions. Your irritation with Israel's self-defeating West Bank settlement policy, an irritation I fully share, seems to have rendered you impervious to Israel's unending struggle to survive and the costs of that struggle. I would characterize Will's article not as an argument for stasis, but as a case for understanding Israeli's wariness regarding Palestinian intentions. Any nation or leader who would not be wary in Israel's situation would be a fool. On a personal level, if you sometimes wonder why your comments regarding Israel elicit such strong responses, I would imagine that your lack of empathy has something to do with it.

- JackR

August 21, 2010 at 10:41am

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George Will may have said nothing news to those of us who know the real predicament Israel is in, but he said it very eloquently. I particularly liked this passage: "In May, a flotilla launched from Turkey approached Gaza in order to provoke a confrontation with Israel, which, like Egypt, administers a blockade to prevent arms from reaching Hamas. The flotilla's pretense was humanitarian relief for Gaza -- where the infant mortality rate is lower and life expectancy is higher than in Turkey." Now given that the majority of pundits writing on Israel blame the Jewish State for every ill under the sun, it is refreshing to read a comment like the one above.

- jdyer

August 21, 2010 at 11:29am

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Well said, Jack R.

- jdyer

August 21, 2010 at 11:29am

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Difficult as it may be for you to accept, jack, if one really cares about Israel and its people, it is possible to see what Peretz and Will engage in as bathetic self-indulgence. If it were harmless, I would not care, but it is not. At best, it distracts from thoughtful consideration about what can and should be done. At worst, and far more commonly, it is used to justify behavior that further frustrates the possibility or progress toward security. My interest is personal. My sister and her husband made aliyah 33 years ago. I have a niece, herself with a two-year old and a six-month-old, and two nephews who are Israeli to the core despite their transmitted American citizenship. The older two have finished their active service. The youngest is a paratrooper on active duty that periodically takes him into the West Bank. No doubt those for whom Peretz and Will are appealing find in it a great expression of their own empathy and concern for the people of Israel. I don't. I think it is destructive. I prefer to focus on what may make a difference rather than on nursing grievances or puffing up one's own sense of virtue by comparison to the evil other. The stakes really are too high. There is not a lot of margin to spend resources of any kind, political, emotional, on self-justification. There is ample reason to be wary, but there are perils to the left and perils to the right. Simply maintaining the status quo is not without peril.

- roidubouloi

August 21, 2010 at 11:35am

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Ah, refreshment! So satisfying, so gratifying.

- roidubouloi

August 21, 2010 at 11:36am

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Another self declared moralist bites the dust: "Sweden seeks WikiLeaks founder arrest in rape case" By KARL RITTER (AP) – 18 minutes ago "STOCKHOLM — The founder of WikiLeaks was accused of rape in a Swedish arrest warrant Saturday that turned the spotlight onto the former hacker who's infuriated governments with his self-proclaimed mission to make secrets public. The accusation was labeled a dirty trick by Julian Assange and his group, who are preparing to release a fresh batch of classified U.S. documents from the Afghan war. Swedish prosecutors urged Assange — a nomadic 39-year-old Australian whose whereabouts were unclear — to turn himself in to police to face questioning in one case involving suspicions of rape and another based on an accusation of molestation...." http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j67FZIpdD8zrIyYcrXZQ4cqFj_mgD9HNUQ4G1 That Sweden of all countries would go after someone because they are anti-American is hard to believe.

- jdyer

August 21, 2010 at 11:39am

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Nothing Will said was false, and given the massive anti-Israel propaganda in the media world wide it is indeed refreshing to read a true statement about the conflict. This doesn't contradict a desire for peace which must above all be based on the real history of the conflict and not some imaginary scenario which idealizes the Palestinian Arabs and demonizes the Jewish State.

- jdyer

August 21, 2010 at 11:43am

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Of course, it is always good to be reminded that infant mortality is higher in Turkey than in Gaza. One might also note that the self-styled "humanitarian mission," or political theater if you prefer, has in fact resulted in an easing of the restrictions on Gaza. So, should one conclude that what had been restrictions necessary to Israel's security ceased to be necessary because of the debacle on the Mavi Marmara? Or should one conclude that the restrictions that were removed did not really have a bona fide security purpose in the first place? Not that any of it matters, because nothing Will said was false.

- roidubouloi

August 21, 2010 at 11:57am

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Update: charges against WikiLeaks founder Assange have been dropped. Who cares, he already deserves lifetime solitary confinement.

- Goggins

August 21, 2010 at 12:05pm

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The worst lawyer in the world just said: "Not that any of it matters, because nothing Will said was false." And the infant mortality rate in Turkey doesn't matter because of Mavi Marmara, even though the Turkish press loves to tell the world how evil Israel is and what a benign State Turkey is.

- jdyer

August 21, 2010 at 1:24pm

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Goggins "Update: charges against WikiLeaks founder Assange have been dropped. Who cares, he already deserves lifetime solitary confinement." He deserves death for having exposed Afghan enemies of the Taliban to execution. All in the name of "morality."

- jdyer

August 21, 2010 at 1:26pm

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Infant mortality in Turkey doesn't matter because it has no bearing on the impacts -- economic, social, political, military -- or the justice or utility of Israel's constraints on Gaza's imports and exports. It is the sort of fatuous comparison, designed solely as a claim of virtue, that impairs responsible thought. Someone not besotted with such moral nonsense would want to know what can plausibly be achieved with the trade restraints (or blockade if you prefer) on Gaza and at what cost. Is the goal a sound one? Are the costs acceptable? Can the goal be substantially achieved at a lower cost by some other method or less onerous constraint? These are the questions asked by people who care about the outcome for Israel. What Will and Peretz care about is their own political virtue which they burnish by making moral claims about Israel's predicament. In effect, they exploit Israel for their own self-serving ends. That doesn't excite my empathy. It excites my disgust.

- roidubouloi

August 21, 2010 at 1:50pm

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roi: I don't care if infant mortality in Turkey or any other Islamic country is greater than in Israel. I agree that it is irrelevant however, I do think that it is just human nature to entertain some feelings of shadenfraude. I also agree with you that "maintaining the status quo is not without perils". However, I am astonished to read every day nonsense published by known journalists, writers, philosophers and politicians who are convinced that they know what is good for Israel and Israelis. Most of them don't speak local languages, don't know local culture or history and do not follow current affairs. However, they speak with great authority. Like the late Tony Judt for example. Israel is not a teenager in need of "time out". Israel is a mature country, led at least as well as the United States, situated in the toughest area of the globe. Errors in existential matters are out of the question. In this neighborhood an error will cost you your life. So the way we look at the great advice asking Israel to take "risks for peace" is that Israel will pay the price and the pundits and politicians will simply say: Ooops!

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

August 21, 2010 at 2:22pm

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George Will may have forgotten it, but 3% of the American population did die in and around an armed conflict -- the Civil War (600,000 plus military fatalities and around 350,000 civilian casualties). The cause of the 1861-5 conflict was southern secession from the Union to protect the institution of slavery. No prosecutions for armed insurrection or treason took place after the victory of the Union forces, and indeed the defeated party was free to develop a culture of resentment that survives to this day. Currently, responsible members of Will's favored Republican Party toy publicly with notions of secession (the governor of Texas, for example) without George Will reminding them of the lives lost to restore the Union. To that extent, he can stick his lectures where the sun don't shine.

- ironyroad

August 21, 2010 at 2:31pm

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roidubouloi "Infant mortality in Turkey doesn't matter because it has no bearing on the impacts -- economic, social, political, military -- or the justice or utility of Israel's constraints on Gaza's imports and exports. It is the sort of fatuous comparison, designed solely as a claim of virtue, that impairs responsible thought." This "fatuous comparison" was introduced by those who want to delegimize the existence of the Jewis State. It important to answer it precisely if you want to attain a lasting peace.

- jdyer

August 21, 2010 at 2:59pm

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Those who want to delegitimize Israel compare infant mortality in Gaza to that in Turkey? Really. And peace requires a thorough understanding of the nature and meaning of this difference in infanct mortality? makover: You can read stupidity all day long every day on most any subject form pundits, journalists, politicians, bloggers, the world. The US is also a reasonably mature country. That does not deter everyone in the world, here and elsewhere, from offering advice and opinion, much of it stupid, on what the US should or should not do. Nor is it the case that Americans are uniquely able to discern what as a practical matter will or will not advance their interests and those of others who are affected by what the US does or does not do. Nu?

- roidubouloi

August 21, 2010 at 3:11pm

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Irony: I'm having some difficulty with your analogy. There are some substantial differences in characteristics ala War between the States and Israel v Middle East. Personally I wanted to barf when Arafat was allowed to set foot on US soil without consequence. That and his Peace prize are pretty freakin rich. Nothing has really changed since those way back when days except ...... bullshit analogies and relativism in the service of Islamic hatred.

- jacko

August 21, 2010 at 3:49pm

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I wasn't really drawing an analogy in any real sense, jacko -- I was just looking for a way to express my contempt for Will's smug, impervious, bow-tied self-importance.

- ironyroad

August 21, 2010 at 4:14pm

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makover - "oops" indeed! I think you made the point more clearly than I did.

- JackR

August 21, 2010 at 4:38pm

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roid - some people are actually able to keep two ideas in their head at the same time: 1) The ability and willingness to empathize with people in an extremely difficult situation is a positive human quality usually much appreciated by the people in question, maybe even by your sister and her family. To put such empathy down as self-indulgent or self-serving does not ring true. 2) Empathy aside, it is still necessary to do the hard thinking and cost/benefit analyses to figure out how best to navigate through the straits of said difficult situation. In other words, you don't have to choose between them or demonize 1) to get to 2).

- JackR

August 21, 2010 at 5:09pm

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I'm with Makover, JackR and jackD. What I get from Will's refreshing op ed is to skip the lectures on Israel's "Risks for Peace".

- basman

August 21, 2010 at 5:14pm

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roidubouloi "Those who want to delegitimize Israel compare infant mortality in Gaza to that in Turkey? Really. And peace requires a thorough understanding of the nature and meaning of this difference in infanct mortality?" You are a senile imbecilic dog who grabs a bone and won't let go. As JackR said, some of us can hold two ideas in their head at the same time: they can see and describe the predicament Israel is in and still work for a meaningful peace.

- jdyer

August 21, 2010 at 5:40pm

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JackR, Sorry, but I don't see a piece like Will's as being an expression of empathy toward Israel and Israelis because of the the difficulty of their situation. I see it as right-wing political correctness larded with a bunch of hackneyed observations. Empathy would require some thoughtful consideration of the dilemmas posed. Repetition of the inane point, made weeks ago by some other pundit, about Turkish infant mortality isn't it. But, if it inspires empathy in you, god bless. jackson, As usual, you say something thoughtless, stupid, and splenetic and then erupt with your epithets when that is pointed out, not with insult, but merely by repetition of what you said that makes it obvious how perfectly stupid it was. Frankly, jackson, at the end of the day, you are just an asshole. The fact that you are an advocate for Israel neither conceals nor excuses the fact that you are such an asshole, with your head firmly planted up same. If you were merely senile, it would be an improvement.

- roidubouloi

August 21, 2010 at 5:57pm

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"... my contempt for Will's smug, impervious, bow-tied self-importance." Examples of "Will's smug, impervious, bow-tied self-importance.": "During the onslaught, which began 10 Septembers ago, Israeli parents sending two children to a school would put them on separate buses to decrease the chance that neither would return for dinner. Surely most Americans can imagine, even if their tone-deaf leaders cannot, how grating it is when those leaders lecture Israel on the need to take "risks for peace." "... if the Jewish percentage of the world's population were today what it was when the Romans ruled Palestine, there would be 200 million Jews. After a uniquely hazardous passage through two millennia without a homeland, there are 13 million Jews. ... this homeland was founded on one-sixth of 1 percent of the land of what is carelessly and inaccurately called "the Arab world," Israelis have never known an hour of real peace. Patronizing American lectures on the reality of risks and the desirableness of peace, which once were merely fatuous, are now obscene. " Any author who speaks in decisive moral clarity in unambiguous defense of Israel must be a putz. Tony Judt, however, in his casual black golf sweaters, advocating with utter sang froid and in the proper academic dialect, the dissolution of the state of Israel because its acting in determined self-defense was too embarrassing to watch, now he deserves unambiguous accolades for perspicacity, nuance and such elegance .. ________ BTW, the estimation of the numbers of Jews today had they been left to live free of persecutions, massacres and holocausts is based on the fact that in Roman times the Jews accounted for 10% of the entire population around the Mediterranean. The Romans expelled between 1.5 and 2 millions of Jews from Judea.

- noga1

August 21, 2010 at 7:12pm

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jackR: "On a personal level, if you sometimes wonder why your comments regarding Israel elicit such strong responses, I would imagine that your lack of empathy has something to do with it." You are seriously misreading roi if you allow him wonderment about reactions to his comments about Israel. That would suggest doubt and self-criticism which he is incapable of applying to himself. Rather, his comments are deliberately intended to elicit strong responses. He fancies himself a muckraker, whose "truths" are meant to afflict the comfortable, a la Chomsky. We, Israelis and our indefatigable advocates, are too comfortable, in his opinion. We need to be whipped into submission, for our own good you see. Israelis don't know what's good for them. They need someone of roi's moral fibre to tell them.

- noga1

August 21, 2010 at 7:50pm

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Roiduchien “As usual, you say something thoughtless, stupid,…” As usual the imbecile can’t allow anyone who disagrees with him to offer a valid counter argument. With roiduchien one either agrees with his monomaniacal views or becomes the butt of his petty and impotent rage.

- jdyer

August 21, 2010 at 8:05pm

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“Palestinian factions slam PA leadership” By KHALED ABU TOAMEH “PA decision to negotiate directly with Israel draws condemnation.” Looks like the leadership on both sides will have a hard time with many of their followers as the talks proceed. http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=185528

- jdyer

August 21, 2010 at 8:13pm

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contrast and compare how the use of words changes the received narrative: Nada Bakri in the August 22, 2010 New York Times on the Mariam: http://www nytimes.com/2010/08/22/world/middleeast/22flotilla.html "...On May 31, Israeli commandos killed nine Turkish activists aboard a ship that was part of a Turkish aid flotilla that the commandos had boarded as it approached Gaza. ... The trip’s organizers, a group of more than 50 women, most of whom are Lebanese, said the Mariam, which sails under the flag of Bolivia, was carrying food and medical supplies. Its goal, they said, is to break the naval blockade of Gaza that Israel imposed after the militant group Hamas was elected to power. " George Will: "In May, a flotilla launched from Turkey approached Gaza in order to provoke a confrontation with Israel, which, like Egypt, administers a blockade to prevent arms from reaching Hamas. The flotilla's pretense was humanitarian relief for Gaza -- where the infant mortality rate is lower and life expectancy is higher than in Turkey." (as jackson noted above - also a favorite of mine - perhaps Geroge Will heard the same National Public Radio descriptor that I did last week, which was so slanted I now understand why it's nickname is National Palestinian Radio - sorry, can not find the transcript). George Will uses the English language with an elegant clarity while imparting factual context. In the English language press, George Will may be the last of those who can write outside a rigid ideological frame on anything about Israel. One wonders how Will's critics react when he writes about baseball...

- K2K

August 21, 2010 at 8:44pm

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jackson, when I read Toameh's article an hour ago, all I could think was something like "So, Mahmoud Abbas negotiates a final settlement, and goes home to discover not one single Palestinian will agree to it" Anyway, Obama is having bilaterals on September 1 with Netanyahu, Abbas, Mubarak, and Jordan's Hussein (not necessarily in that sequence), followed by a dinner for five. Will the table be round or pentagon, or the shape of a five leaf clover? Did not the Paris Peace Talks over Vietnam slam to a halt over the shape of the table?

- K2K

August 21, 2010 at 8:51pm

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BBC - Panorama - What happened on the Flotilla to Gaza: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXrzF0IOQYE&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfo91FQVr7M&feature=player_embedded

- noga1

August 21, 2010 at 8:51pm

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"Jordan's Hussein " You must mean Abdullah.

- noga1

August 21, 2010 at 8:53pm

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yes, I meant King Abdullah, but al-Hussein (al-Husayn) is the family last name. sorry, just made the mistake of reading the first page of comments attached to George Will's column. an absence of moderation. If that is an example of the remainder of the 762 comments, we have a case study of the power of the Palestinian narrative amongst people who hate George Will?

- K2K

August 21, 2010 at 9:21pm

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Has anyone ever heard or read an Israeli lecturing Americans on what is in our best interest? Nah. That doesn't happen because Israelis understand perfectly that America is a mature society and that Americans, including whoever happens to be president at the moment, know just what is best for them. That's why we never hear complaints from Israelis about American policy. They understand that we are always just doing the best thing for Americans. Israelis don't need to be whipped into shape, but the Israeli right, just like the American right, should be kicked constantly. Why? Because the only safe thing for them to be doing is defending themselves. The moment they are free to act in accordance with their idiot ideology, they destroy everthing they touch. Why? Because they confuse their self-proclaimed virtue with reality. The very moment they are finished patting themselves on the back is the moment something bad is about to happen. It is noteworthy that a column by Will that is supposed to generate empathy instead produces refreshment. Are we made sad and filled with pity for the losses he recounts? No, we are refreshed. That suggests that empathy may not have been the intended purpose.

- roidubouloi

August 22, 2010 at 12:19am

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I meant more Will's general history of punditry and style, Noga, mostly on domestic topics but also on international themes, as well as his TV appearences. While not making an analogy between the Civil War and the I/P conflicts, as I explained to jacko, I do find his comments surprising (and yet depressingly unsurprising when you think about it) for the absence of the Civil War as a conflict that produced large-scale death and destruction among Americans, in the range of 3%. But of course, for present-day conservatives, the whole thing was just an illicit power-grab by the federal government so everyone died in vain.

- ironyroad

August 22, 2010 at 12:49am

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Irony: Your comments have a bit of a 'Pickett's Charge' feel to it. I suppose I could make some room if the contentions were that the US doesn't require a lecture on the costs of internal conflict. I think what is really pissing you off aside from your dislike of Will is the indicting of the evenhandedness implication and how it has become a subtle yet very effective weapon for those who are anything but evenhanded. I think Will hits it fair and square.

- jacko

August 22, 2010 at 7:19am

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Further, I'm not one to defend the Republican party as is constituted these days. It's running a cynical little game. Not much different than the Dems when they were out of power. It is my hope that both parties as currently represented are living on borrowed time. Pox Congressuli and Vox Great-big-a-lie. I feel like that Far Side vulture contemplating hunger and patience.

- jacko

August 22, 2010 at 8:21am

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I think probably George Will is one of ironyroad's bête noires, and awakens in him an irresistible impulse to ventilate that animus. Probably I would react similarly to how anything written by the likes of Rashid Khalidi or Edward Said. Like ironyroad here in the case of Will, I wouldn't be able to read anything from either of these authors with any equanimity.

- noga1

August 22, 2010 at 9:14am

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Part 2: "Many possible Israeli concessions would be suicidal" By George F. Will Sunday, August 22, 2010 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/20/AR2010082004682.html?hpid=opinionsbox1 Does George Will "defend the Republican party as is constituted these days"?, to borrow jacko's phrase. Mr. Will always seems very independent-minded to me, and certainly not a demon of the rightwing that triggers auto-animus from so many leftwing ideologues. It was fun listening and watching him (no bowtie!) on This Week today, hammering Christine Amanpour speechless by saying [paraphrase] 'Mahmoud Abbas has never publicly said that Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish State'

- K2K

August 22, 2010 at 10:28am

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It is a rare moment in America when an American non-Evangelical Protestant lectures (in the Washington Post) all Americans about Israel's history as to why Americans should "Skip The Lectures On Israel's "Risks for Peace"" and why Americans should understand that "Many possible Israeli concessions would be suicidal" Not that the anti-Israel left and "J" Street will be swayed, but that still leaves the other 75% of Americans, and possibly a few who work in the White House, with solid reminders of the fact-based reality of history.

- K2K

August 22, 2010 at 10:36am

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"Chosen: The toxin of anti-Semitism isn’t a threat only to Jews." By Christopher Hitchens http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/09/chosen/8173/ [wherein Hitchens interweaves his take of "Trials of the Diaspora: A History of Anti-Semitism in England" By Anthony Julius Oxford [and] "A Lethal Obsession: Anti-Semitism from Antiquity to the Global Jihad" By Robert S. Wistrich Random House] I waited for my hard copy of the September issue of The Atlantic, and read Robert Kaplan "Living with a Nuclear Iran" first. Then Goldberg's "The Point of No-Return" (after Goldberg's citation of 17th-18th century Shi'a clerics' "view [of Jews] as the leprosy of creation", my reading resumed during the commercial breaks of Disney's "Enchanted" ), and finally Hitchens' "Chosen", which is the first review that makes me want to read both Julius and Wistrich.

- K2K

August 22, 2010 at 10:52am

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When I read WIll, which I do occasionally, I feel as if I'm being lectured at, in the negative sense. Thus a lecture in which he tells others to "skip the lectures" is annoying squared. I think "indepedent-minded" is a bit much, but I don't say that Will is a cynical propagandist or anything like that. He's not Krauthammer. To be honest, it's the smugness that presses my wrong buttons, more than anything. A kind of pretense of intellect wrapped in clubby self-affirmation.

- ironyroad

August 22, 2010 at 11:40am

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"Then Goldberg's "The Point of No-Return" Just an anecdote, here is what one Arab blogger took away from Goldberg's article: http://dubai-jazz.blogspot.com/2010/08/ben-zion-netanyahu.html I left a comment explaining to this blogger that Benzion Netanyahu is a professor emeritus in one of America's most respected universities, that he is 100 years old and that he is the father of the fallen Yoni Netanyahu of Entebbe fame. These rather indisputable facts were simply too radical for the blogger to stomach, so he deleted my comment and left an obscene message on my blog. I'm only mentioning this because this blogger is a moderate Arab Muslim...

- noga1

August 22, 2010 at 11:51am

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K2K Julius's extensive essays which formed the basis of his book on this blog: http://www.z-word.com/z-word-essays/false-confessions%253A-how-anti-zionists-incriminate-zionism.html

- noga1

August 22, 2010 at 12:06pm

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"I see it as right-wing political correctness larded with a bunch of hackneyed observations. " And why do you see it this way roi? Does the claim that Israel is the only country that is required to "take risks for peace" seems untrue to you? Is it not factual that Israel and Israel only is being lectured by (forget the pundits) US government apparatchiks, diplomats and POTUS himself about sacrificing for the sake of peace. I have never, never heard this addressed to the Palestinians for instance. Why? I suspect that is because deep inside all the involved, suspect that appealing to the Palestinians, Arabs and Iranians for peace is like masturbating with sand paper, painful and unsatisfying. After the disaster of Oslo, Israel continued to offer peace. There was the Barak initiative, Olmert initiative, Livni initiative. We even had Sharon's unilateral attempt at getting out of Gaza. All of those initiatives took some serious risk with the life and well being of the Israelis. And all this happened in a short span of 10 years but the Palestinians have yet to say yes to Palestine. And forgive me that I am also very pessimistic about the outcome of this latest masturbatory tactic, the direct talks. We know what American peace initiatives mean for the Israeli people, more war, death and destruction. And Obama's initiative is only another iteration on the same subject, although I must admit that his perception of this conflict is particularly naive and Polyanish.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

August 22, 2010 at 1:09pm

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". . . like masturbating with sand paper, painful and unsatisfying." May I offer in response a gender-neutral "aaaaaarrrrrgggghhhh!"?

- ironyroad

August 22, 2010 at 1:56pm

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http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/2010/08/competing-world-views-tear-peace.html

- basman

August 22, 2010 at 3:52pm

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K2K: "Chosen: The toxin of anti-Semitism isn’t a threat only to Jews." By Christopher Hitchens Very eye opening article. Please read the following article by one of Israel's foremost writers. Thanks. http://azure.co.il/article.php?id=18

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

August 22, 2010 at 6:12pm

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That's a serious question, makover, and I intend to give it a serious answer. Just can't do it at the moment having only arrived home after collecting the kids from camp.

- roidubouloi

August 22, 2010 at 7:09pm

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Thanks roi, I am going to sleep. Manana

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

August 22, 2010 at 7:17pm

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when makover awakes: Yehoshua's quest (in Azure) to find one root cause of antisemitism through science, a root cause independent of time or place, seems to me a quest best left to him. Even if he found the one true source, there is no cure in the 21st century where it seems every cause and grievance goes viral based on half-truths. noga: dubai-jazz has zero comments. I left my comment to his at your blog, with restraint. I do admit that bit of Goldberg's article made me wonder if Ben-Zion now needs more security... I am in year three of "using the library", so hope to add Julius and Wistrich to my library list for the winter. or not. Burrough's "Let our Fame be Great [Caucausus], Solomon's "Water", Green's "Moses Montefiore", and Herman's "Gandhi & Churchill" will have priority in addition to my already-purchased backlog. My last semester of grad school, 2005, I took two history classes: "Political Islam" and "History of Anti-semitism" Hard to want to return to either subject for reading pleasure :) irony: what makes you think ". . . like masturbating with sand paper, painful and unsatisfying." is gender-specific??? I can understand why you think Will is smug. I take-away confidence. Different strokes?

- K2K

August 22, 2010 at 8:21pm

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"...Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said direct peace talks with the Palestinians, announced Aug. 20, should lead to a demilitarized Palestinian state that recognizes Israel as the Jewish homeland. “Security, recognition of the national state of the Jewish people and the end of the conflict -- these are the three components that will ensure us a real and lasting peace agreement,” Netanyahu told his Cabinet at a meeting yesterday. Reaching an accord will “be difficult, but possible,” he said. Wassel Abu Yousef, a member of the Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee, said Netanyahu was setting preconditions for the talks that would be impossible to meet. “Palestinians reject the demand to recognize Israel as a Jewish state,” he told reporters in Ramallah yesterday. from "Netanyahu Says Talks Must Lead to Palestinian Recognition of Jewish State" By Gwen Ackerman - Aug 22, 2010 5:24 PM ET http://www bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-22/netanyahu-says-peace-agreement-possible-with-a-real-palestinian-partner.html off to a fine start... the location of direct talks is still to be determined. seems Camp David and Wye River - Annapolis have already been ruled out.

- K2K

August 22, 2010 at 8:38pm

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makover - thanks for the azure cite - fascinating. This has been a mostly edifying thread. Inspired by makover's cite, I want to offer a remarkable work of fiction that both portrays and transcends the conflicts of our discussion. It is "Exile", Richard North Patterson's legal thriller that, amidst a great yarn, manages to convey an even-handed compassion for both the Israeli and the Palestinian sides of the bitter tribal conflict. The impact is a more profound empathy for the people caught up in this tragic situation in which everyone, by their own lights, is right.

- JackR

August 23, 2010 at 9:43am

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It's certainly true that there are concessions that Israel could make that would be suicidal. it's surrounded by hostile neighbors and it's stakes in general are much higher than they are for America (generally speaking, America's foreign policy decisions have the greatest impact on other countries, they're not usually addressed to existential threats facing America itself). But what the hawks tend to ignore is that, while it's true that there are a set of suicidal concessions, there are also a set of suicidal non-concessions. just as a practical matter, leaving aside any moral obligations, it's important to acknowledge that there are dangers in being too aggressive as well as too passive.

- miceelf

August 23, 2010 at 11:10am

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Part of Will's point, though unspoken, is that nobody is speaking of "risks" to be taken by the Arabs. The burden is seen to be entirely on Israel's shoulders. The other day Yahoo ran an AP headline trumpeting some baloney about how the so-called peace talks will test Bibi's will to make peace without a word about the Palestinian/Arab will to make peace. The whole dialogue is skewed. It ignores decades of wars, terrorist attacks and genocidal threats not to mention the fate of Middle Eastern Jews. A simple look at a map, you'd think, would suffice to put the Arab/Israeli conflict into perspective. But nooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

- Sophia

August 23, 2010 at 12:16pm

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K2K -- I don't think it's gender-specific. I think it's gender-neutral, hence my comment. Not that I have any, ah, concrete experience of it, mind you.

- ironyroad

August 23, 2010 at 1:14pm

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Sophia: maybe AP is using maps from Syria, which only show Palestine? It is not impossible. Goes with believing the Palestinian narrative. irony: I understand. I was distracted by memories of one cat, now deceased after a long life, who was rather fresh with his cat-tongue, which is like sandpaper. I know he was being affectionate in trying to groom his human pal, but...

- K2K

August 23, 2010 at 11:16pm

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