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Go Home Amnesty International Official Calls Israel A “Scum...

THE SPINE AUGUST 26, 2010

Amnesty International Official Calls Israel A “Scum State”

BY MARTIN PERETZ

Actually, almost no one should be surprised that a member in high standing of the “human rights internationale” and a Scandinavian besides resorts to such scummy language when talking about Israel. The London headquarters of the world-wide organization seemed to be in a panic, as reported by Benjamin Weinthal in yesterday’s Jerusalem Post. AI’s spokesperson took umbrage at the criticisms and said that the culprit, Frank Johnansson, had only said that Israel was a “creep state,” as if that were much of an improvement.

In any case, Finnish experts said that the “highly derogatory term” is most often translated as “scum” or “scum bag” or “douche bag.” Oh, how the human rights internationale contributes to a better world. By the way, Johansson relies on extraordinary evidence for his views. His opinions are “based on my own visits, which occurred during the 1970s and for the last time in the 1990s.”

This news from the pretentious and portentous NGO establishment came on the same day that Tony Blair, coordinator of the Quartet’s efforts at peacemaking, denounced the “delegitimization of Israel” as an “affront to humanity.” This speech was reported by Herb Keinon in the same issue of the same newspaper.

You know exactly what he means by this affront. And the affront filters down to the American press and the British press, in which there are blogsters (including, alas, former editors of this magazine) who have been seized by the putative evil that Israel does. If you think that I am fixated on Israel please consider that it is only in response to the idée fixe of a whole commando squad of fashionable and mostly, but not all, ignorant writers about the Jewish state. Let me assure that, however inadequate their knowledge of Israel and the Jews, they are far more ignorant of Palestine and the Arabs of Palestine. Still, ignorance does not stop them from issuing moral dicta. Take, for example, Nicholas Kristof. But in what else does Kristof deal than such dicta? 

But let me give you an example. The hysteria that followed the flotilla confrontation on the Mediterranean -in which nine pro-Palestinian activists were killed- has now resulted in two, yes two, probes by the United Nations. Israel is cooperating with one of these. The other (the one that is being conducted by the Israel-obsessed and Israel-possessed U.N. Human Rights Council) expends almost all its efforts on the conflict. It is as if truly ghoulish and unprovoked atrocities are not being carried out by Arabs and Muslims, both in power and out, every day in at least half the world. It is as if the lives of these victims of fierce and religiously sanctioned hatred are worth nothing.

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77 comments

"If you think that I am fixated on Israel..." There's no need to apologize, Marty. And, yes, "they are far more ignorant of Palestine and the Arabs of Palestine.", and more importantly, Arabs in general and Islam.

- amidut

August 26, 2010 at 1:04pm

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Indeed there's no need to apologize. AI, however, should indeed apologize. Also, AI should be rethinking what exactly it is they're supposed to be doing. Here for example is a statement by Gita Saghal, advocate for women's rights, who was fired from Amnesty for speaking out about "Cage Prisoners." http://www.awid.org/eng/Women-s-Rights-in-the-News/Women-s-Rights-in-the-News/Statement-by-Gita-Sahgal-Amnesty-International-and-Cageprisoners

- Sophia

August 26, 2010 at 2:31pm

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AI has also, just recently, warned of increased instances of human rights "abuses" in ... Canada. (400 demonstrators were arrested for half a day in Toronto during the G20 summit ....) It has lost its way. And the creep who made the comment is a creep, alright. But ... again, here is a perfectly valid point being made, but the point and the TNR with it are sullied by rank bigotry:

"Actually, almost no one should be surprised that a member in high standing of the “human rights internationale” and a Scandinavian besides resorts to such scummy language ...."
Imagine the rendered shirts if, next time Avidgor Lieberman said something "scummy" about anyone, Sullivan were to write: "Actually, almost no one should be surprised that a member of the the Zionist internationale and a Jew besides resorts to such scummy language ...." So let's agree that Frank Johnansson said a creepy thing, and that the AI is fast becoming a joke on most human rights issues, and let's leave all Scandinavians and the "human rights internationale" out of it.

- icarusr

August 26, 2010 at 3:20pm

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Total digression: I'm leaving today for Kingston, Ontario with my running buddy and Associate James W. Rose to hear the Blues at the Kingston Blues Festival. Kingston is the home of world famous Kingston Penitentiary. That reminds of the years of my misspent life behind bars--principally the Capri Lounge on Highway 49 just between Sodom and Gomorrah.

- basman

August 26, 2010 at 3:40pm

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Since we're doing digressions, basman, I recently discovered your blog, and it's a delight. Just had to put that out there. Enjoy the museum. ;-)

- miceelf

August 26, 2010 at 3:49pm

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Basman - have fun. My students usually take me to the local "cheapest beer" hangout ... :P ... have to try something different when I am there.

- icarusr

August 26, 2010 at 3:58pm

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I am certain the Finns are making sure everyone knows Frank Johnansson is really Swedish, and not a real Finn. Peretz needs to distinguish between the "Scandinavians" Looking forward to how AI and/or Johnansson describe this: "UN Security Council examines communication failure in Congo rapes" By Anita Snow (Canadian Press) – 35 minutes ago "The U.N. Security Council on Thursday examined why two U.N. peacekeeping patrols were not informed by villagers that mass rapes were taking place near their base and said it didn't get answers. The gang rapes of nearly 200 women and boys by Rwandan and Congolese rebels reportedly occurred over four days within miles of a U.N. peacekeepers' base in Kibua. Russia's U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin, the current council president, said members want to hear from Assistant Secretary-General for Peacekeeping Atul Khare, immediately after he returns from Congo on Sept. 8. The council also condemned sexual violence as a human rights abuse and called on the Congo to punish those responsible. "It is of utmost importance that the Democratic Republic of the Congo continue to pursue its efforts to fight impunity," the council said in a statement released amid growing criticism that more was not done to prevent the attacks. A Congo government spokesman in Kinasha said Thursday that the country's security forces need more on-the-ground support from the international community to prevent future attacks. Roger Meece, the new U.N. special representative for Congo, said Wednesday peacekeepers didn't learn about the "horrific" rapes of at least 154 Congolese civilians for nearly two weeks, showing that the force's actions to protect civilians were insufficient. But the U.N. mission in Congo is looking into reports by an aid worker that U.N. workers knew rebels had occupied communities in the region the day before the attack began on July 30. U.N. authorities are considering having villages report to the U.N.'s forward operating base daily, and requiring a patrol to investigate if reports are not received. Following the Security Council briefing, U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice issued her country's "strongest possible condemnation" of the gang rapes. "It was a disturbing briefing, both for what we learned and what we do not know still," Rice said. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon sent his Special Representative for Sexual Violence in Conflict, Margot Wallstrom, to handle the U.N.'s follow-up to the attacks. " Copyright © 2010 The Canadian Press. All rights reserved. [How do you "fight impunity"????]

- K2K

August 26, 2010 at 4:22pm

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We must fight anti-scandivianism with the same fever pitch we fight antisemitism. As we all know, Scandinavians have long been persecuted, murdered, genocided, gettoized for the crime of being tall, having blond hair and blue eyes and exhibiting an intolerable fondness for beer. We have tolerated too long this virus, this rank bigotry, against this Nobel people! Enough!

- noga1

August 26, 2010 at 4:37pm

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22CGlF7l5MI

- noga1

August 26, 2010 at 4:38pm

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Well I think the point about Scandanavia wasn't meant to smear or stereotype the people but rather the fact that "Nordic" people have been consider superior and that's why Jews were murdered.

- Sophia

August 26, 2010 at 4:49pm

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OK so I can't spell. I meant "considered", sorry:)

- Sophia

August 26, 2010 at 4:49pm

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noga, I disagree with your implication, but that was a nice pun!

- miceelf

August 26, 2010 at 4:53pm

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Israel's revenge -- tonight in European basketball Israel's national team finished the Finnish national team 85-71, after trailing the Finns 33-32 at the half. AI is just another variant on HRW & TNR has already documented their built-in antiIsrael bias, or rather obsession. This incident can be added to the infamous French diplomat (sic.) in London who referred to Israel as "that shitty little country". On days like these I pray that the EU crashes, burns, & otherwise falls apart. Go Greece!! Hershel Ginsburg Efrata / Jerusalem

- ginzy

August 26, 2010 at 5:09pm

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"...that "Nordic" people have been consider[ed] superior..." And considered themselves superior and continue to do so. http://www.israelwhat.com/

- noga1

August 26, 2010 at 5:09pm

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Actually the Finns are not Scandinavian (except in a loose sense by virtue of geography). They are a Finno-Ugric people most related to Estonians and then Hungarians. In the Scandinavian world they are looked down on by the Nordics, and Finland is itself a somewhat interesting case in that it manages a fairly harmonious if somewhat prickly relationship between the 70% Finns and 30% Swedes that make up the population (I'm leaving the Laplanders out of it for the moment). They also kicked the Soviets' collective ass good and hard in 1939-40 when they invaded Finland to capture the Karelian territory. They lost eventually by sheer weight of numbers but they humiliated the Red Army.

- ironyroad

August 26, 2010 at 5:42pm

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Thanks irony, what you wrote is why I am certain the Finns are condemning that Swede Johnansson . They got stuck as a Nazi ally because of that Russian invasion (and theft of Karelia that continues to this day), but refused to give up their 2,000 Jews to Hitler. I admit to some personal bias, having worked for a Finnish company, but more because of the startling resemblance of so many Finns to my mother's Jewish shtetl-Polish side of the family. Same jaw, same light brown hair, same gray eyes. Most likely a genetic imprint from some 17th century Swede during their empire building phase, but Finns are not to be confused with Swedes. Ask Avigdor Lieberman.

- K2K

August 26, 2010 at 5:58pm

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"Scandinavia[1] is a region in northern Europe that includes Denmark and the Scandinavian Peninsula's two nations, Norway and Sweden. Finland is sometimes considered a Scandinavian country in common English usage, and Iceland and the Faroe Islands are sometimes also included.[2] The term Nordic countries refers to Denmark, Norway and Sweden as well as Finland and Iceland, and associated territories." (wiki)

- noga1

August 26, 2010 at 5:58pm

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Harem boy icarusr says: “But ... again, here is a perfectly valid point being made…” Icarus is the scummiest poster here. There is no antisemitic comment about the Jewish State that he will not defend.

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 5:59pm

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Finn’s may not be “Scandinavians” but Johansson is certainly a Scandinavian name.

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 6:02pm

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“BERLIN – The head of Amnesty International’s Finnish branch, Frank Johansson, told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday that he stands by his statement that Israel is a “scum state.”” "“NGO Monitor chief Gerald Steinberg condemned Johansson’s remarks in the context of his organization as a whole. The head of the watchdog organization, which tracks anti-Israel activity among NGOs, told the Post in an e-mail on Tuesday that “Amnesty International has promoted an intense anti-Israel ideology, resulting in statements like these. Such one-sided ideological campaigns, with false allegations of war crimes, are entirely inconsistent with Amnesty’s claim to support ethical principles and universal human rights.”" http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=185846 Amnesty International shouldn’t be taken seriously as a “human rights” organization. Like HRW it is an organization that has given shelter to all kinds of Jew haters.

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 6:07pm

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"Harem boy icarusr says:" Your criticism of icarus 's annoying, careless and narcissistic opinions would be that much more poignant without these embellishments which I don't even know what they mean.

- noga1

August 26, 2010 at 6:15pm

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K2K “Thanks irony, what you wrote is why I am certain the Finns are condemning that Swede Johnansson . They got stuck as a Nazi ally because of that Russian invasion (and theft of Karelia that continues to this day), but refused to give up their 2,000 Jews to Hitler.” The Jews weren’t “theirs” to give up. The refusal to send Jews to the death camps doesn’t justify Jew hatred today. Besides, more Scandinavians cooperated with the Nazis than stood up to them. Sweden is a country that trafficked in Nazi stolen Jewish property. The Norwegians didn’t exactly refuse to cooperate with them. Only Denmark stood up for its Jewish citizens, but they are the exception.

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 6:17pm

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noga1 "Your criticism of icarus 's annoying, careless and narcissistic opinions would be that much more poignant without these embellishments which I don't even know what they mean." That's nonsense, Noga. There is nothing narcissistic about my comment. There is no attack on Jews that, harem boy, Icarus, hasn’t defended or apologized for at one time or another. Icarus holds Peretz to an imaginary higher moral standard than he does actual racists. Yet, he apologizes for Jew haters from Iran to Finland.

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 6:24pm

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To resolve the confusion: I think there are two common uses of "nordic," ethnic and geographical/geopolitical. In the ethnic sense, Finns are not nordics or Scandinavians and I don't believe they consider themselves such (my visit was short and some years in the past, but that was my impression at the time -- but I'm happy to be corrected on this). K2K -- I just had a random thought, on the way "Finlandization" came to mean the opposite of what it originally signified. My impression was that it started life in a positive sense as a description of how a small country bordering the USSR could maintain its independence although bound to geopolitical neutrality (e.g. not a member of NATO), while it finished as a term meaning "hidden Soviet domination." The Finns were not pleased with this, as they are proud of having stripped themselves to the bone in the late '40s and '50s in order to pay off the Soviet "war reparations" (damages to the Russians for having invaded Finland), which they did successfully after 15 years or so -- much to Moscow's displeasure, as they wanted Finland on the hook for ever.

- ironyroad

August 26, 2010 at 6:26pm

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"That's nonsense, Noga. There is nothing narcissistic about my comment" You are right and you were reading too fast:)

- noga1

August 26, 2010 at 6:27pm

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I'd also note that, whatever wikipedia says, Finnish bears no relationship whatsoever to any Scandinanvian language, which are all related to each other.

- ironyroad

August 26, 2010 at 6:31pm

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Noga, to explain- "harem boy" is a "cute" way of inserting homophobia into the debate- it's a rather obscure reference to icarus's (actual/alleged- I can't remember) homosexuality. Don't expect dyer to be responsive- he acted as if you had accused him, rather than icarus, of making narcissistic comments.

- miceelf

August 26, 2010 at 6:32pm

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ironyroad: You are right. You were right. You will be right. I submit to your pedantic knowledge with all respect I have always held for pedants and purists. I give you now Professor Twist, A conscientious scientist, Trustees exclaimed, "He never bungles!" And sent him off to distant jungles. Camped on a tropic riverside, One day he missed his loving bride. She had, the guide informed him later, Been eaten by an alligator. Professor Twist could not but smile. "You mean," he said, "a crocodile."

- noga1

August 26, 2010 at 6:35pm

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ironyroad "I'd also note that, whatever wikipedia says, Finnish bears no relationship whatsoever to any Scandinanvian language, which are all related to each other." True about the languages. I haven't checked but I think that Finnish is closer to Hungarian and Estonian than to Swedish. Still, Johansson is not a Finnish name.

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 6:36pm

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miceelf “Noga, to explain- "harem boy" is a "cute" way of inserting homophobia into the debate- it's a rather obscure reference to icarus's (actual/alleged- I can't remember) homosexuality.” Fuck off, miceelf. Here is another poster who can’t be bothered with antisemitism but spends his whole life whining about supposed Marty’s anti-Muslim bigotry. Icarus in a previous thread told us that he went to a Muslim gay bar and was picked up by an Islamist “adonis” who berated him for drinking alcohol: hence the appellation “harem boy.” Got any thing to say the Jew hatred at Amnesty International, miceelf? So far, he hasn’t bothered to say anything about it. This is because anti-Jewish hatred doesn’t concern him. What concerns him is posting attacks on Marty, period. I doubt he even cares about Muslims or gays. Like most Jew haters he just uses them in order to attack Jews.

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 6:46pm

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Here is a serious, for a change, discussion about Johansson's bigoted comment: http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/08/25/amnesty-international-official-calls-israel-scum-state/

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 6:53pm

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Ah yes, the Adonis incident. It made me burst into a paean for the our local Lebanese supermarket, named Adonis. I was there yesterday buying a box of baklava and shamali to take to a dinner I was invited to. 3 pounds of pastry for $15. The tiramisu, by comparison, a smallish cake, cost $28. Why am speaking about cakes? I'm fed up with these bigots, these putzes, these schmucks that are supposed to be humanity's finest.

- noga1

August 26, 2010 at 6:54pm

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I love you too, jdyer. So much. Had another enjoyable lunch today, and thought of you. As to the statement by the AI guy, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. I am with Sophia- AI should apologize and should fire the guy. She said it with much more grace than I was likely to. I suppose I could have said "amen, sophia" or "bravo, sophia" and thus pre-empted your usual schtick, but I figured why clutter up the boards with an amen corner. She also managed to do so without making homophobic or racist statements. So, she's probably ahead of both of us.

- miceelf

August 26, 2010 at 6:57pm

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Noga, I miss Adonis. Very much. Montreal has so many nice things about it.

- miceelf

August 26, 2010 at 7:00pm

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miceelf "As to the statement by the AI guy, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence." For someone who takes less than a minute to condemn Marty for any perceived anti-Muslim comment your claim falls flat. As I said before you are not concerned about anti-Jewish bigotry. Why not admit it? "She said it with much more grace than I was likely to." Oh bullshit.

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 7:07pm

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jdyer, It's okay. I get that it doesn't matter what I say- you've fixated on me. Ignore the fact that, in the internet world, it's normative to voice disagreement, but much less so to voice agreement (absent sprezzatura-type situations, which aren't usually considered to count). Don't worry. some day you'll find love.

- miceelf

August 26, 2010 at 7:44pm

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miceelf "jdyer, It's okay. I get that it doesn't matter what I say- you've fixated on me." This from someone who can’t stop posting on Marty’s blog, even though he hates him because of his pro-Israel posts. Stop posting at this blog and I'll forget you quicker than a flash or lightning.

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 8:03pm

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"...quicker than a flash or lightning." The above should read, quicker than a flash of lightning.

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 8:06pm

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Yes, jdyer, the universal bully chant. "Do what I want, and I'll stop." It's also the universal chant of unrequited love. But, no accusations of genocide? Are you fasting for Ramadan?

- miceelf

August 26, 2010 at 8:18pm

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Wow your blog is boring.

- jnordlander

August 26, 2010 at 8:43pm

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"When war broke out, Finland announced its neutrality, but on November 30, 1939, Finland was invaded by the Soviet Union. When the Soviet-Finnish war was concluded in March, 1940, Finland had to yield territory and make other political concessions to Russia. On June 22, 1941, Finland joined Germany in attacking the Soviet Union. Finland provided a base of operations for the Germans, but was never actually occupied by the Germans, except in the northern regions. There were two thousand Jews in Finland. In a visit to Helsinki in 1942, Himmler attempted to induce the Finns to deport the Jews, but Finnish Foriegn Minister Rolf Witting refused to give the matter any consideration. In September 1944, Finland capitulated to Russia and then had to fight the Germans to force them to evacuate Finland." If jackson objects to any of the phrasing, he will just have to live with his objections since the author of the above excerpt from 1975 "The War Against the Jews 1933-1945", Lucy Dawidowicz, passed away on December 5, 1990. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_Dawidowicz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Against_the_Jews does not include the book reviews, but does have her chart showing estimated pre-war Jewish population, estimated killed, and % of population killed, which is used to rank the countries. Finland is at the bottom of this list with no known Jews killed.

- K2K

August 26, 2010 at 9:00pm

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miceelf “It's also the universal chant of unrequited love.” The antisemite Miceelf sounds like the hypocritical Portia talking about “love.” His love, like Portia's, is the equivalent of hate.

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 9:06pm

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K, I have no problem with Lucy Dawidowicz' phrasing which is not the same as yours in the post above.

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 9:08pm

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Brian Goldfarb @engage psoted the following comment which I find to be an apt description of how the Finnish government could have responded to the bigoted comment: "Then the Finnish Government tries to wriggle off the hook, as follows: “The deputy head of Mission for the Embassy of Finland in Israel, Anu Pulkkinen, told the Post on Tuesday that Johansson “is responsible for his own comments, and we are not commenting on blog writings of individual Finnish citizens”. Given the nature of Johansson’s comments and also the nature of AI, she should, at the very least, be saying something along the lines that, given her Government’s close relations with Israel she is disturbed at the apparent views of someone so prominent in such an important organisation… Hardly undiplomatic to say so." http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/08/25/amnesty-international-official-calls-israel-scum-state/#comments

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 9:15pm

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What I find problematic is the defensive comment that 'oh, we saved two thousand Jews sixty or so years ago so we can be as antisemitic today as we please.' No, you can't.

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 9:17pm

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More on AI (Antisemitic International): "In April Amnesty International came under criticism for holding a meeting about Israel's policy in east Jerusalem under the title of "Capital Murder" and featuring the author of a book on Israeli "apartheid". The organisation also had to issue an apology in January for alleging that the co-chairs of the Northern Ireland Friends of Israel had committed “war crimes” by defending Israel." http://blog.camera.org/archives/2010/08/amnesty_again_sullied.html

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 9:29pm

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JD: For what it's worth, I assume our friend Johannson is a Finnish citizen of Swedish ethnicity -- about 30% of the population of Finland. Not that that makes any difference, the Finnish branch of AI bears institutional responsibility for the public statements of its members. I haven't been following this story other than on this thread but I hope the Finnish government quickly puts some airspace between itself and the Finnish AI. By the way I think you are either unconsciously or deliberately misreading K2K when he was making his historical point -- the formulation "their Jews" can just mean Jewish citizens of Finland for whose security the Finnish state was in fact responsible (and discharged its responsibility). Noga, crocodile or alligator, you're welcome! -- see you later! :)

- ironyroad

August 26, 2010 at 11:13pm

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Ironyroad “Not that that makes any difference, the Finnish branch of AI bears institutional responsibility for the public statements of its members.” I agree. This AI’s problem, and as you said the Finnish government needs to distance itself from AI but it is not responsible for the slur.

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 11:35pm

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“By the way I think you are either unconsciously or deliberately misreading K2K when he was making his historical point -- the formulation "their Jews" can just mean Jewish citizens of Finland for whose security the Finnish state was in fact responsible (and discharged its responsibility).” It can mean many things, some ugly some not. Still, my problem with her comment, as I said above, wasn’t just the phrase.

- jdyer

August 26, 2010 at 11:38pm

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jdyer wrote: >K2K “Thanks irony, what you wrote is why I am certain the Finns are condemning that Swede Johnansson . They got stuck as a Nazi ally because of that Russian invasion (and theft of Karelia that continues to this day), but refused to give up their 2,000 Jews to Hitler.” >The Jews weren’t “theirs” to give up. Maybe not, but that didn't stop collaboration governments in other countries from deporting Jews. Finland, like Bulgaria, Hungary, and Denmark, deserves some credit for standing firm. Norway, heavily occupied by several hundred thousand Germans, had little choice. At the time, arch collaborationist Vidkun Quisling was despised. More recently, rehabilitation of Nazi propagandist Knut Hamsun is consistent with the anti-Israel cast of a left-socialist government.

- hcunn

August 27, 2010 at 1:18am

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jdyer wrote: >More Scandinavians cooperated with the Nazis than stood up to them. Sweden is a country that trafficked in Nazi stolen Jewish property. The Norwegians didn’t exactly refuse to cooperate with them. >Only Denmark stood up for its Jewish citizens, but they are the exception Denmark saved her Jews by smuggling them to Sweden. Surely Sweden deserves some of the credit. There was a curious urban legend that the Germans decreed that Danish Jews (like those in most other occupied countries) must wear a yellow star. Supposedly the King of Denmark put out the word that all loyal Danes should wear a yellow star when the anti-Jewish decree became effective. In reality, the Germans did not wish to stir resistance in a quiet occupied territory of great economic value. (Denmark's government was allowed many of the privileges of independent allies like Finland and Hungary.) Legend or not, the story, arising among Danes themselves during the war, reflects some credit on them: this is how they would have expected their king to act.

- hcunn

August 27, 2010 at 1:22am

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"Maybe not, but that didn't stop collaboration governments in other countries from deporting Jews. Finland, like Bulgaria, Hungary, and Denmark, deserves some credit for standing firm." Admiral Horty, the Hungarian collaborator with the Nazis deported Hungarian Jews starting in 1944. Hungary should not be mentioned in this list. I am somewhat surprised about this whole discussion. Does anybody really doubts or have any illusions as to the bias of Amnesty? So, a piece of dog s..t expressed his opinions. Big deal.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

August 27, 2010 at 7:22am

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"I am somewhat surprised about this whole discussion. Does anybody really doubts or have any illusions as to the bias of Amnesty? So, a piece of dog s..t expressed his opinions. Big deal." Dog crap indeed. I couldn't agree more, makover. I don't understand why Marty bothers with the mutterings of bigoted nonentities. Antisemitic and racist statements by idiots are everywhere every day, should we then be outraged by it all? I'd say not, unless, of course, the speaker has the power to do real damage.

- scrubby

August 27, 2010 at 8:29am

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makover: thanks - exactly. And the piece of dogshit and AI, should be appropriately censured by civil society. AI has lost its way - I stopped volunteering with them in 1988, in fact. But the knee-jerk reaction of tarring not just an organization, not even a single country, but an entire region for the idiocy of one man is just dangerous strategically - not to mention morally repugnant.

- icarusr

August 27, 2010 at 8:34am

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JD: you can hurl abusive insults at me all you want, I will not reply - what's the point of, say, calling you a "syphilitic son of a chancred whore who eats shit out of the toilet bowl and sucks donkey dick at the local petting zoo for his kicks", even if it is true? Too easy to just ratchet up the insults, and to no purpose. Out of decent respect (two words that are, I know, dissonant in your vast vocabulary) not for me but for your friends, who are tiring of your silliness, just attend to the substance.

- icarusr

August 27, 2010 at 8:41am

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Makeover “I am somewhat surprised about this whole discussion. Does anybody really doubts or have any illusions as to the bias of Amnesty? So, a piece of dog s..t expressed his opinions. Big deal.” It is a big deal, Makeover. Some of us know the real nature of Amnesty International; however, it is a respected “human rights” organization. Hence it is a big deal and some of their officials openly express antisemitic views. By publicizing their comments people the real nature of that organization will become apparent to all. I am glad Marty posted this bigot’s comments even though some people (this does not apply to Makeover) feel very uncomfortable with evidence of real Jew hatred and would like to either explain it away or make excuses for it.

- jdyer

August 27, 2010 at 9:46am

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“Admiral Horty, the Hungarian collaborator with the Nazis deported Hungarian Jews starting in 1944. Hungary should not be mentioned in this list.” Very true, Makeover, the treatment in Hungary of Jews by its indigenous Fascists was pretty horrid. The first anti Jewish laws there were passed in 1938. Norway too had an indigenous Nazi movement (Nasjonal Samling) which Scandinavians would like to forget and it too doesn’t belong on the list. In any case we are talking about very small number of Jews, (about 1,800). Denmark had a slightly larger Jewish population about 8,000 and what makes it unique is that a large number of Danes were involved in their rescue.

- jdyer

August 27, 2010 at 9:57am

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Harem boy’s catch 22: “JD: you can hurl abusive insults at me all you want, I will not reply - what's the point of, say, calling you a "syphilitic son of a chancred whore who eats shit out of the toilet bowl and sucks donkey dick at the local petting zoo for his kicks", even if it is true? Too easy to just ratchet up the insults, and to no purpose.” This speaks for itself. I hate hypocrites, icarusr and you are one of the most hypocritical posters, here.

- jdyer

August 27, 2010 at 10:00am

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JD: go back and re-read the thread. And many threads before. You're the one who started and start the insults, and I have been fairly nonresponsive. Even your friends are calling you on the idiocy of your insults. I wrote, as was clear, to merely highlight the stupidity and pointlessness of insulting back and forth, and now, again, you prove the point. Any way, go ahead and drool and dribble out your venom; I will continue to skip your messages. (It was Mice's reply that made me go and look - sad, really.)

- icarusr

August 27, 2010 at 10:37am

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"Denmark had a slightly larger Jewish population about 8,000 and what makes it unique is that a large number of Danes were involved in their rescue." And so, to tar the entire Scandinavian population as being anti-Semitic is moronic, false and scandalous - assuming one considers Denmark "Scandinavian". Now, why the oik who makes this observation about Denmark, goes on to defend an idiotic comment by Marty about all Scandinavians, and then to insult others, is known only to his maker and his board-certified psychiatrists.

- icarusr

August 27, 2010 at 10:40am

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Marty: Why are so many former New Republic editors taking cheap shots at Israel, putting forward ideas I would expect from college freshmen?

- JerryL

August 27, 2010 at 10:58am

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icarusr “"Denmark had a slightly larger Jewish population about 8,000 and what makes it unique is that a large number of Danes were involved in their rescue." And so, to tar the entire Scandinavian population as being anti-Semitic is moronic, false and scandalous - assuming one considers Denmark "Scandinavian". Now, why the oik who makes this observation about Denmark, goes on to defend an idiotic comment by Marty about all Scandinavians, and then to insult others, is known only to his maker and his board-certified psychiatrists.” Well, Marty didn’t do that. However, Scandinavia is not free of antisemitism today. There are cities in Sweden, Malmo, for example, from which Jews have been fleeing because of attacks by Muslims living there and the unwillingness of the local authorities to protect them. “Jews leave Swedish city after sharp rise in anti-Semitic hate crimes.” http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7278532/Jews-leave-Swedish-city-after-sharp-rise-in-anti-Semitic-hate-crimes.html Then there was the de-facto Swedish Nazi alliance which netted a lot of money to that country. Sweden too had a large pro Nazi party and many well knows intellectuals like Ingmar Bergman was a member. In Norway too there is a lot of antisemitism among its intelligentsia. Including “Jostein Gaarder.” I could go on. But why does harem boy get so angry about a supposed slight to Scandinavians and ignores real Jew hatred there? I have a hunch, (did he also have a Scandinavian lover?) but the real story “is known only to his maker and his board-certified psychiatrists.”

- jdyer

August 27, 2010 at 11:18am

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Marty et.al., JerryL has a good question. What's up with the cheap shots at Israel? How about a column? A really thoughtful, well-researched and annotated column.

- Sophia

August 27, 2010 at 3:04pm

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Thanks again irony, for the 'citizens of Finland' restatement - yes, that is what I meant. as to jackson's point: "Scandinavia is not free of antisemitism today." I follow this closely, and one should separate Norway and Sweden from Finland and Denmark when it comes to today's antisemitism and attitude/policy to Israel. Avigdor Lieberman makes official visits to Finland and Denmark. He knows it is futile to bother with Norway and Sweden, and probably dangerous for him to visit Sweden. There is a media group based Norway that owns the 'blood libel' Aftonbladet from August 2009 infamy that fuels the flames in Sweden. It is a VERY different country from Sweden. The Finns make fun of their indigenous Swedes, partly because the Finns STILL resent having been ruled by Sweden from 1105 to 1809, when Sweden ceded Finland to Russia, who ruled until 1917. Finnish hostility to Russians is more open, which is a bit startling when the national 'character' of Finland is often described as placid politeness - probably due to the milk spigots everywhere and co-ed saunas for business meetings :). Finland champions music and math as arenas of national excellence, which would indicate some common sense versus Sweden's obsession with becoming the haven of choice for refugees, which is how Malmo got to be 25% Muslim..

- K2K

August 27, 2010 at 8:44pm

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sophia: "What's up with the cheap shots at Israel [by former TNR editors per JerryL]? How about a column? A really thoughtful, well-researched and annotated column." I believe Peretz sees no need to do so since the team at Commentary are doing SUCH a good job, especially Jennifer Rubin. Must be getting tricky for Peretz since J-Ru now focusses even more on Chait. My favorite: ttp://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/rubin/343136 "...But really, what can Chait expect of “bigots” who ask impertinent questions [links to Peretz "Terrorism and the Mosque"] like: “So, dear Jon Chait and dear Isaac Chotiner, does the Cordoba Initiative at least not give you the creeps?” And just to be clear, since Chait doesn’t always read carefully, there’s nothing bigoted in the least about that query from Chait’s editor, or in the increasingly bipartisan opposition to a mosque that a number of eloquent Muslims — American and otherwise — have voiced. ..."

- K2K

August 27, 2010 at 9:01pm

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"....and one should separate Norway and Sweden from Finland and Denmark when it comes to today's antisemitism and attitude/policy to Israel." I always take each case on its own terms. I said nothing about Finland except that the government should at the very least disassociate itself from the comments by the AI official. Most of my ire is reserved for Sweden and sometimes Norway because they seem to get a pass. They have an undeserved reputation for tolerance, especially Sweden.

- jdyer

August 27, 2010 at 10:07pm

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jackson: "Most of my ire is reserved for Sweden and sometimes Norway because they seem to get a pass. They have an undeserved reputation for tolerance, especially Sweden." I totally agree. I defended Finland because this thread started out conflating the country of Finland with AI in Finland and Scandinavian antisemitism. When the Aftonbladet blood libel erupted, I went through a painful personal transformation from a lifetime of Scandi-philia, mostly about design and being a Saab enthusiast since 1976, but also because of that now undeserved reputation of tolerance. I wanted to burn my Saab in protest in front of the Swedish consulate in Manhattan, but, it was assembled in 1998 before Sweden got this anti-Israel. And, once I factored in all my other political objections, all that was left was Subaru and Honda. Still wrestling with VW and GM. Never a Ford. jackson, you do seem to need to get ornery.

- K2K

August 28, 2010 at 12:13am

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k: "jackson, you do seem to need to get ornery." excuse me? I am always ornery.

- jdyer

August 28, 2010 at 12:32am

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". . . probably due to the milk spigots everywhere and co-ed saunas for business meetings." Whoo-hoooo! Sorry, got carried away there for a moment.

- ironyroad

August 28, 2010 at 2:00am

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"It is a big deal, Makeover." It's Makover, although I have been called worse. Jdyer, the nature of Amnesty is well known. It is not what it used to be. Today it is an organ of the anti Israel "progressives" and therefore anything that emanates from them is tainted. Some claim that because they do "valuable" work in other areas they should still be supported, however, my view is that their Israelophobia and anti Israeli bias is like a cyanide, even one drop is deadly.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

August 28, 2010 at 7:15am

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Maybe Amnesty International suffers from Institutional Oikophobia? "...The British philosopher Roger Scruton has coined a term to describe this attitude: oikophobia. Xenophobia is fear of the alien; oikophobia is fear of the familiar: "the disposition, in any conflict, to side with 'them' against 'us', and the felt need to denigrate the customs, culture and institutions that are identifiably 'ours.' " Scruton was writing in 2004, and his focus was on Britain and Europe, not America. But his warning about the danger of oikophobes--whom he amusingly dubs "oiks"--is very pertinent on this side of the Atlantic today, and it illuminates how what are sometimes dismissed as mere matters of "culture" tie in with economic and social policy: The oik repudiates national loyalties and defines his goals and ideals against the nation, promoting transnational institutions over national governments, accepting and endorsing laws that are imposed on us from on high by the EU or the UN, though without troubling to consider Terence's question, and defining his political vision in terms of universal values that have been purified of all reference to the particular attachments of a real historical community. The oik is, in his own eyes, a defender of enlightened universalism against local chauvinism. And it is the rise of the oik that has led to the growing crisis of legitimacy in the nation states of Europe. ..." copied from "Oikophobia: Why the liberal elite finds Americans revolting." James Taranto, Wall Street Journal,AUGUST 27, 2010. linked Saturday August 28, 2010 from RealClearPolitics.com [K2K has no idea what Taranto is referring to with "Terence's question", but that part was Taranto quoting a section of Scruton's 2004 essay] irony: "the milk spigots everywhere and co-ed saunas for business meetings" was only in the Helsinki-based global HQ of my former employer, but my colleagues told me both were common throughout corporate Finland. The milk spigot was on the wall next to the water fountain in the lobby. As to the co-ed saunas, once I was there for a global "meet that voice in New Zealand" team building program, and some of the non-Finns at that sauna meeting had trouble concentrating :) There was a conference room attached to the sauna, also used as a company amenity for all employees, for their sauna breaks.

- K2K

August 28, 2010 at 10:44am

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I keep misspelling your name, makover. Sorry about that. Someday I will get it right.

- jdyer

August 28, 2010 at 11:59am

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K2K "Maybe Amnesty International suffers from Institutional Oikophobia?" They suffer from good old fashion Judeophobia.

- jdyer

August 28, 2010 at 12:00pm

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K2K, the other thing I remember from my couple of trips was the initial pleasure at greeting a salmon dish of one kind or another at breakfast, morning coffee break, lunch, afternoon coffee break, and dinner. And then my feeling of being all salmoned-out a few days later.

- ironyroad

August 28, 2010 at 12:55pm

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The best thing about Norway, I am told, is that you can get a sardine sandwich at a restaurant.

- jdyer

August 28, 2010 at 3:04pm

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irony: Yes, Finns love their coffee. Best milk chocolate I have ever eaten. Too bad you missed the nouvelle reindeer loins with lingonberries for dinner followed by the beer drinking-with-singing. Once, we had a retreat in upstate New York with a team from Helsinki. They challenged us to a songfest. To our shame, the Americans could not think of a single song. The Finns took over. I still remember the passion in their song about the loss of Karelia, though not the words. Positive way to channel deep national anger over theft of near half your country - through song.

- K2K

August 28, 2010 at 4:13pm

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I remember a boat trip on the river in Turku (in southern Finland, a more Swedish city than others) organized by the Finnish Fulbright committee. After, oh I don't know, a few glasses of wine or beer and few salmon appetizers we got to talking about politics. Liberals in a social/moral sense, all the Finns were united in the feeling that the end of the Cold War was a kind of disaster. "When we were on the front line with the USSR, the U.S. embassy was always interested, always open for new suggestions-- now, they just don't care any more. [Drink; look out window of ship]

- ironyroad

August 29, 2010 at 2:25am

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