THE SPINE AUGUST 27, 2010
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I was for the American involvement in Iraq. And I am for the American involvement in Afghanistan, more or less and so-so, not (I readily admit) a responsible position. Perhaps out of naivete. Perhaps out of nostalgia for the good the United States brought with it in most of its foreign entanglements. Don’t forget World War II in which our troops were decisive in rescuing the world from an ideologically motivated system of cruelty even unto its ultimate form, genocide. And, for that matter, don’t forget Korea where the U.S. rescued the south from another criminally sadistic instance of totalitarianism. Or don’t you think the Pyongyang regime barbarous...
The fact is that I have come to believe that the surge strategically advanced the cause of modern civilization in Iraq, however modified by Islam in its various manifestations. But it did not ensure it. Those of us who supported the war on a mere estimate of American capacities carry a heavy burden for the deaths of both allied troops and Iraqi civilians. Still, the president did not improve the odds of success by pulling all but 50,000 of our troops from old Mesopotamia on an absolute and arbitrary schedule. The dozens and dozens murdered in 13 cities and towns the day before yesterday, so soon after the withdrawal, was a show of strength by what we know to be Sunni terrorists (the New York Times still calls them “insurgents,” but deftly without identifying their Sunni loyalties.) OK, you may say, Barack Obama was true to his own belief that the Iraq war, “Bush’s war,” was doomed to failure. And the blood of our soldiers is debited not to himself but his predecessor. This is just another instance of the radical cynicism that colors many of the administration’s so-called initiatives.
I am and have been more skeptical of the Afghan enterprise. Rather than deprecate the Bush administration’s relatively low-level involvement in that miserable and all but incoherent country, I thought it rather wise. And, frankly, I was appalled when candidate Obama elevated the conflict there into a war of necessity...even getting his campaign audiences to cheer (not with much enthusiasm, to be sure) when he made his what is now clearly a gross distinction. In any case, General Petraeus (who knows what he is talking about while the president does not) has told us very clearly that the near deadline approach to fighting the Taliban will bring about yet another disaster.
One of the reasons why wars in the Muslim orbit are so vicious is because they are fought over the souls of men and women. In a way, there is no surrendering—at best, there are tactical cease-fires—since the stakes are eternity.
I am now in Israel where there are similar struggles for the souls of people, Jewish people. No, Jews don’t kill each other over doctrine. But the ultra-orthodox, both from the Sephardi and Ashkenazi (Mediterranean and European) traditions are always trying to extend and expand their coercive license over their own. And, of course, extending their coercive license over their own means also impinging on the rights and liberties of others.
So I was thinking: what if a fierce clash over the rights of women were to develop in haredi Israel? There are ongoing efforts to open women to the idea that they need not tremble before the Lord. But the government knows its limits. Let’s say official Israel were to try to liberate Jewish women (to say nothing of Muslim women) from the social oppression they suffer. After all, they are kept from meeting men without the presence of their husbands; there are all kinds of rules about ritual bathing, clothing and hairlessness to which they must adhere, etc. But from the civil perspective they cannot run for public office, just like in several Muslim countries. This is not because of law but because of the coercive powers of their environment.
Imagine that the government were to decide to liberate these women. And, having exhausted all forms of ordinary and even extra-ordinary discourse and economic incentives, it were to decide to send troops to B’nei Brak and Mea Sharim, two ultra-ultra-orthodox neighborhoods, to free the captives and enforce their right to enter politics and run for the Knesset. Could any one imagine that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, a brilliant and utterly cynical “spiritual” leader, and his corrupt political martinet Eli Yishai would negotiate with their captors?
Yes, this is far-fetched. But Ovadia Yosef is a religious figure not quite but sufficiently similar to the Taliban in its dogmatics of the second-class status of women to make the comparison. The condition of the pious woman in Israel will not be improved in our time.
And, despite what Hillary Clinton promises, the condition of women in Afghanistan will also not be remediated. It will remain degrading and degraded and probably even if “we” win, however unlikely “our” victory.
Read these next:
- Other Than Apartments In Jerusalem, What Else Is Going On In The Middle East?
- Eight Pieces, Really One: Iran, Israel's Military Doctrine, The President And One Dumb Jewish Woman, The Wages of Copenhagen, The Christmas Terrorist, We Should All Stop Talking About The Middle East
- Beware: Do Not Read if All You Want Is an Intellectual Fix for One of Your Political Prejudices. This Is Serious Stuff!
107 comments
Interesting perspective. A hamhanded approach to liberation would be to use the French model and legally forbid women from observing the various clothing and hairlessness rules. I can't imagine that would work out well. if the change is going to happen, it can't be imposed. The best thing, in my view, would be to support those women who voluntarily liberate themselves. Aggressively prosecute violence against women who violate the rules, or who simply leave the religious communities for more egalitarian ones. (this is more of an option for women in Israel than in Afghanistan, which is a point in its favor). I suppose this model would depend on an alternative community being available to women who seek more freedom. THAT is possible, and already exists, amply, in Israel. It only exists in its most nascent form in Afghanistan. I suppose that might be the kind of freedom that we have in mind in Afghanistan. In the long term, ifwomen are free to leave these communities, they often will. The extremes will persist, just as they do in milder forms here in the US. (try being a woman in the sparsely populated parts of Utah, for instance). But the model of freedom will be attractive to many women (and a goodly number of men as well, who want somethign more in a partner than a repository for genes and domestic services).
- miceelf
August 27, 2010 at 12:10pm
The ultra-ultra orthodox Jewish communities in New York follow the same interpretation of Talmud, in which there are no rules requiring honor killings or stoning for adultery as the Taliban impose in Afghanistan. What a terrible comparison! Lucky the Amish are spared Peretz's vitriol. Is Peretz going to bitch about the ultra-ultra orthodox of Israel for however long he is going to be living there teaching the unfortunate teenagers assigned to his English class?
- K2K
August 27, 2010 at 1:03pm
If your goal is "liberating" these women, you would be better off working within the Orthodox movement. Most of these women, given a choice between living according to G-d's will as a second class citizen or living contrary to G-d's will as a first class citizen, will choose living according to G-d's will. To convince them of an alternative way of life, you have to convince them that the alternative you propose is consistent with G-d's will.
- sighthnd
August 27, 2010 at 1:04pm
sighthnd, it would seem to me that the only people who could make that argument would be the reform minded ultraorthodox. (or member of insert conservative religious community here).
- miceelf
August 27, 2010 at 1:07pm
Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, and Eli Yishai being Mizrahi Jews, have no sway over what happens in the Ashkenazi Haredi Ultra orthodox communities of Mea Shearim or Bene Berak. Tsk. Tsk. Such revealing ignorance from Marty. A little humility might be in order.
- noga1
August 27, 2010 at 1:52pm
There is one other path to helping women (as well as young boys) in ultra Orthodox communities in Israel is to have the State stop subsidizing the community. I don’t have the statistics handy and perhaps Makeover, or Ginzy (from their own divers points of view) could help here, but I am told that many ultra Orthodox men sit in subsidized Yeshivas and study instead of needing to earn a living on their own. Ironically the Mizrahi Jews are more exposed to secular life than the Hasidim. If the frume don’t get exposed to secular life how are they supposed to know what they are missing in terms of education in the arts and sciences?
- jdyer
August 27, 2010 at 2:03pm
"One reason more and more Haredim, men and women alike, are seeking employment is that the state has been cutting child allowances. But when they try to find work, they find many barriers. Some are internal - the special requirements of their religious rules. Other are external. Employers require that prospective employees pass tests, have a minimal education and can integrate into the culture of the secular workplace. In the last five years, Haredi women have found "warm homes" in high-tech. They undergo training for computer programming and product-quality testing. Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox women have found jobs at technology companies - where they tend to get paid about a third of what their their secular peers receive. In customer service they get paid the same as their peers, even though, as in technology, employers have to make adjustments; for instance, to provide the women with a segregated workplace and kosher food. " http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/business/israeli-companies-discover-the-merits-of-haredi-women-1.288549
- noga1
August 27, 2010 at 4:07pm
"Amid ultra-Orthodox campaign against electronic chip maker, group of haredi women starts working in company's plant in Jerusalem, having secured rabbis' authorization. Ynet learns women sought rabbis' advice on whether to relinquish job, got halachic permit to work" http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3805827,00.html
- noga1
August 27, 2010 at 4:09pm
"A small but growing number of ultra-Orthodox women in Israel's Haredi community are earning nontraditional degrees and better incomes. Second in a series on women changing religious institutions and practices." http://www.womensenews.org/story/070312/ultra-orthodox-israeli-women-reach-better-jobs
- noga1
August 27, 2010 at 4:10pm
“Israel Prosperity Seen Unsustainable as Haredim Refuse to Work” http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-01/israel-prosperity-seen-unsustainable-as-haredim-refusal-to-work-takes-toll.html
- jdyer
August 27, 2010 at 4:59pm
From the link above: "Steinitz said at an economic conference in Nazareth, Israel, on June 16 that the economy will be “in critical trouble in less than two decades” if the ultra-Orthodox don’t significantly increase their participation in the workforce. The haredim’s current low participation directly cost the economy an estimated 4 billion shekels ($1 billion) in 2009, according to a June 30 Finance Ministry report. Gross domestic product rose 3.4 percent in the first quarter, the most recent period available. Because employment is low among the ultra-Orthodox and they have a large number of children, their contribution to the public coffers is relatively low compared with benefits they receive, said Omer Moav, a professor of economics at Royal Holloway, University of London and at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. “Every citizen gives some and gets back some,” said Moav, a former adviser to Steinitz. “An average haredi family gives a small amount and gets a lot. And it’s not static. The burden on the working population will grow and grow.” "
- jdyer
August 27, 2010 at 5:11pm
A few years ago, Ben Dror Yemini wrote an article in Maariv contending that while per capita income among the Arabs in Israel is, indeed, far lower than that of the Jews, the main reason for this is not discrimination but the fact that Arab families are much larger than Jewish families and most Arab women are not part of the workforce. Jewish subgroups in Israel with similar characteristics (single breadwinner, large family) are in a similar position. By contrast, the per capita income of Christian Arabs compares favourably with that of the general Jewish population. He contends that one can see a similar pattern in other economic indicators: E.g. average infant mortality among Christian Arabs in Israel is 3.2 per 1,000 births; among Jews it is 3.6; among Muslims it is 8.7. (In case one is interested: infant mortality in Syria is 15 per 1,000 births; in Jordan it is 23; in Egypt it is 26; and in Lebanon it is 27.) Apparently, by many indices, the situation of the Haredim is worse than that of the Muslim Arabs in Israel. And the reasons are similar: the status of women, low participation in the workforce, and large families.
- JPKatz
August 27, 2010 at 5:56pm
I have a hard thime believing the Rabbi Ovadia Yosef engages in tactics similar to the Taliban. Perhaps they excommunicate their wayward women, but I doubt they pour acid on the faces of youg female students or blow up girls schools. I am not aware of arranged marriages in these Jewish Communities, perhaps it happens. But I doubt they stone adulters or gang rape the unfaithful. The Fundamental Jewish sects have limits on their behaviour. The Taliban operates beyond any human decency and really should not be compared to any other religious group.
- CRS9TNR
August 27, 2010 at 7:39pm
CRS, if you read even in passing, you'll note that Peretz doesn't claim that the rabbie engages in Taliban-like tactics.
- miceelf
August 27, 2010 at 7:52pm
Geez, sorry. Rabbi.
- miceelf
August 27, 2010 at 8:37pm
"...But Ovadia Yosef is a religious figure not quite but sufficiently similar to the Taliban in its dogmatics of the second-class status of women to make the comparison. ..." is still a vile comparison. Peretz has no cause to conflate his personal frustration with 1) why NATO/US are in Afghanistan (Afghan women have the most to loose if /when we leave), and 2) with his personal disgust of the ultra, ultra Orthodox Jews. Just my assumption, but I would think both groups of women are far less concerned about being able to enter politics than feeling safe in their respective communities, and having healthy children.
- K2K
August 27, 2010 at 10:17pm
I will not support an Israel that has been hijacked by ultra-Orthodoxy. Zionism was supposed to emancipate and normalize the Jewish people, not return them to the worst forms of ghetto rabbinical theocracy. The rabbinic Judaism of exile should have waned, not waxed, 60 years after the creation of the modern Israeli state. CRS9TNR seems to think that the Haredim are harmless tokens of sentimental Jewish folklore. They have not yet reached Taliban extremes. But they riot to prevent Intel Israel from opening for work on Saturdays, insist on sexually segregated public transportation, believe that the world was created in 6 days, willfully disobey democratically-enacted Israeli laws to preserve public order, to begin a long list of offenses to enlightened modern sensibilities. Modern Israeli Jews are fleeing Haredi Jerusalem. That is not good for Israel. It is time to empty the madrassahs (oops, yeshivahs) and put the men to productive work. We in the Diaspora can ignore the Haredim, the Israelis cannot. My fear is that traditional Jewish religion will overwhelm and destroy the Jewish people's state from within with its incessant demands for accomodation to halacha, especially its obsessive ritual demands, and for a hysterical manic-depressive approach to relations with the non-Jewish world.
- amidut
August 28, 2010 at 7:19am
Jdyer: You are correct in stating that the Israeli government subsidizes the ultra orthodox through many programs. The most important are grants for families with many children (Mishpahot Merubot Yeladim). It is interesting to note, that this law actually supports the Arab Israelis as well due to their large number of children and they consistently vote in unison with the ultra orthodox on this issue. Regarding haredi women Peretz's point is well taken, although as Noga mentioned, the Sephardi and Ashkenazi haredim differ on important issues. In general, the Ashkenazi interpretation of Jewish laws and customs is much more strict. Let me point out that "hairlesness" is pretty much limited to the Ashkenazi community although lately there has been some instances of this practice in the Sephardi community. It has to do with this jewel of Talmudic idiocy that a hair of a married woman is "erva" ערווה in Hebrew, a sexual organ not to be exposed. By the way, the same is said about a woman voice, therefore the prohibition on women singing in public. However, as Noga also pointed out, the Haredi women who are by and large the sole providers of the family, (the men dedicating themselves to studies of Torah) are currently breaking away, earning academic degrees moving into the business world.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
August 28, 2010 at 7:51am
By the way, I completely agree with Amidut.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
August 28, 2010 at 7:53am
makover "By the way, I completely agree with Amidut." Same here!
- jdyer
August 28, 2010 at 8:53am
jdyer: "makover "By the way, I completely agree with Amidut." Same here!" me too. But, do the Haredi women get a broader non-Yeshiva education in Israel? THAT would, in theory, promote reform from within, by the women. It has been reported that Sarah Palin hairstyle wigs are now more popular than the Jennifer Anniston-from-Friends hairstyle wigs in the ultra-ultra Orthodox Borough Park, Brooklyn. Go figure.
- K2K
August 28, 2010 at 10:55am
Jdyer: This in today's Haaretz. It looks like a trend and I don't think it is stopable. By the way, did any one read the series of articles in the Atlantic, "The End of Men" by Hana Rosin. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/business/israeli-companies-discover-the-merits-of-haredi-women-1.288549 http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-of-men/8135/
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
August 28, 2010 at 1:51pm
Makover, the Haaretz article was hopeful. Working Haredim means exposure to modern life. How that will affect family life, is another but real issue. I would be surprised though if it didn't have a real impact. I had already read the Atlantic article and my reaction was similar to Mark Twain's reaction about reports of his untimely demise: a bit exaggerated.
- jdyer
August 28, 2010 at 3:01pm
Jdyer: Yes, I agree with your reaction, however you must admit that some of the statistics is fascinating. Particularly the amount of women in the work force and women with degrees.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
August 28, 2010 at 5:55pm
makover “Jdyer: Yes, I agree with your reaction, however you must admit that some of the statistics is fascinating. Particularly the amount of women in the work force and women with degrees.” Yes, of course but that is very different from crying the end of the “rough and rude” sex. Btw: The Atlantic some time ago had an article titled “The End of Israel.” They admitted that the title was meant to attract attention and increase sales. The article speaks of trends, but trends can change. Not long ago people were arguing that it was the end of ideology. No one talks about that anymore. There were also predictions of the end of the nation State. That too is in doubt now. The radical and prolonged economic downturn will also affect a number of other trends.
- jdyer
August 28, 2010 at 6:11pm
I apologize for being late to this thread. I guess it was posted during Shabbat (the Sabbath) and being the orthodox Jewish Neanderthal that I am I don't use the computer over Shabbat (along with my phones, car, TV, radio, etc. etc.). Indeed as Judith Shulevitz has belatedly discovered disconnecting from the outer world for about 25 hours and focusing on the family & friends & some (admittedly not enough) Torah study (including the much maligned (in this thread) Talmud) does wonders for one's soul & psyche (for the best argument I have ever read in favor of the Orthodox Jewish approach to the Sabbath, see an OpEd piece by that pooh-bah of punditry Tom Friedman that appeared some 11 years ago. And I don't even think he ever realized what he was advocating (here).) But I digress. Marty, I do hope that you'll take some time during your year in Israel to free yourself of the simplistic stereotypes of Orthodox Jewry that obsess you. Consider meeting and speaking to some people beyond your usual suspects and do so with an open mind. The Hareidi world (of which I am NOT a part and with which I have my differences & strong disagreements) is a far more complex, far more heterogeneous society than you, and apparently the other denizens of this blog, seem to understand. Or perhaps are willing to understand, given the rather illiberal bias & bigotry & blatant ignorance that is on display here. If I had to list the most misunderstood people in Israel, Rav Ovadiah would probably rank near the top of the list. Yes, he gets most of his electoral support from the Sefardi / Mizrahi world but most analyses show that less than half of Shas' supporters come from the ultra-orthodox world. Shas is best known as a "social benefits" party advocating welfare state policies (most of which I oppose) that would bring tears to the eyes of the Obamanauts & other liberals in the USA. As I have noted before, since moving to Israel about 15 years ago I have become far more of a capitalist anti-welfare statist in part because seeing the long term consequences of these policies. But I have to say that from a welfare state perspective, most Democrats would be quite comfortable in Shas. One more item on Rav Ovadia. The person who more than anyone else that spearheaded higher education for Hareidi women is one Dina Bar-Shalom who founded the Haredi colleges in Jerusalem. She happens to be the daughter of Rav Ovadia and did this with his blessing and encouragement. Indeed he was he keynote speaker at the first graduation. Obviously there is a lot more to complexity to him and his movement but that is beyond the scope of this venue. On women covering their hair. First I would remind you all that in Orthodox practice men also wear head coverings. More to the issue, "erva" (ערוה) does not mean a sexual organ at least in classical Hebrew. Rather it means something on a body that is covered or forbidden for reasons of modesty. It takes on the meaning of a sexual organ because that is something on a body that his covered for reasons of modesty. But hair is not a sexual organ. Trust me. And keep in mind that Haredim have a lot of kids so obviously they seem to have a good grasp on reproductive biology. Yes, I am sorry to report, modesty has been a Jewish value for a few millennia (+/-) and seems to have withstood the test of time, mores than other sociological fads. And the practice of married women covering their hair goes way back, even before there was a diaspora. Clarification: The practice of some women shaving their heads when they get married is actually limited to a very specific subsect within the very heterogenous Hareidi world that does that. Generally it is found among certain subgroups of east European Hassidim who adopted the practice when their villages were regularly subjected to pogroms & Cossack raids and in order to avoid (hopefully) being raped shaved their heads in order to be less attractive. A question: Why is it okay for a woman to choose to shave her head as a fashion statement, but if she chooses to do so for reasons of modesty or religious practice then all hell breaks loose? In the so-called modern orthodox world some women do & some don't (fear not, I don't intend to get into a whole Halachic analysis of the issue here). My mother does not (although she grew up in an Eastern European Jewish setting in which it was the norm), my wife took on the practice after we were married for about 10 years (no more bad hair days!!!), and my married daughter does. She (my daughter) actually gets a lot of stares & double takes because she got married during her IDF service and elected to stay in the army even (female soldiers who get married can almost always shorten their army service; indeed that is assumed to be the default & my daughter tells me that it is not uncommon for some female soldiers to get married in order to get out of their service, but that is another story). She serves in a sensitive, mission critical unit in her long skirt uniform & wearing a kerchief on her head (the IDF allows married female soldiers to cover their hair any way they want to using whatever color(s) they want to). (Her husband is also in the middle of his IDF service, but he is in the paratrooper corps). Also one of the officers in a related unit is a married religious woman (and a mom) whose husband having finished his IDF service is returning to yeshiva (did I hear someone call it a madrassah?) to study for the rabbinate. I mention this because the IDF has discovered that the religious sectors of society generally make excellent soldiers and has started going out of its way to accommodate them. My daughter (and I believe the officer I mentioned above) are products of a program called Hadass based in a midrasha (sort of a yeshiva for women) where post-school girls study for a year or two and then enlist in the IDF as groups of 3-6 soldiers serving together either in the Education Corps or in the Intelligence Corps. The program has been very successful from the IDF's perspective especially in the IC and they are looking to expand it. They get bright, analytical, motivated, well disciplined soldiers who can be entrusted with some of the country's most sensitive secrets. Yes, these are religious women who when they get married cover their hair (gasp!!). And I might add that the IDF has also discovered that Hareidim can also be very good soldiers if their lifestyle is respected and accommodated. The Nahal Hareidi (an infantry unit) has been growing steadily for the 10 years of its existence is already at battalion strength, has its own elite reconnaissance / commando unit, and now the IDF is planning to start a second battalion. Of even greater interest is a program started by the air force in which they recruit married Hareidi men, at least 22 years old who want to leave the yeshiva either because of financial difficulties or because they feel they can no longer handle the long hours of constant study. The air force (and now the intelligence corps as well) brings them in as a group, gives them glatt-kosher food, a female-less environment (there's that modesty thing again), an hour a day for Talmudic study (keeps the brain sharp) and sets them up in sensitive technical jobs ranging from fighter jet maintenance & repair (including the avionics & electronic warfare systems), software work, & other mission-critical work some of which is very secretive (notably the work done in the intelligence corps). To do this the IDF starts off with intensive remedial math & English & then the actual training for their jobs. Without going into all the complex details, for a variety of reasons after a short (2-3 week) basic training and some time in the army these soldiers can get a decent pay, particularly in comparison to the fellowships they were getting in the yeshivas & thus support their families. Some elect to stay in the IDF beyond the 2-3 year minimum commitment and a few have gone on to become officers. The Air Force commander has gone public on the program & is thrilled with the outcome. Say what you want about these guys but their yeshiva training has made them disciplined students with very analytical minds (that is one of the reasons they make good programmers). The Intelligence Corps is far more circumspect about public pronouncements but I have it from reliable sources that they are also pleased with the results and are also looking to expand that program. As you may have guessed, economic realities have been a major factor in slowly but steadily pushing these changes into the Hareidi world. Females get a decent secular education there but most boys do not (its a complicated story) but that is gradually changing. The first push in this direction came during Netanyahu's stint as Finance Minister during the second Sharon government when the economic slowdown forced him to make all kinds of budget cuts, most notably cutting back on transfer payments which of course included the child allowances. Not surprisingly he was castigated by Shas, the Arab parties and the Labor Party for tampering with the welfare state. The process was accelerated in recent years by the economic crash in the USA and the Madoff scandal. A lot of the financial support for yeshivas and kollels (yeshivas for married men) came from American Jewry and they simply cannot contribute what they used to. BTW, both men and women who want to leave the Hareidi world do so (to varying degrees). It's actually easier for women because they usually get more of a secular education that they can use to support themselves. Finally, I know Ben Gurion PROMISED that Orthodox Judaism would wither and disappear in Israel. Guess what? He was WRONG. He was not the first nor will he be the last. One of the great sociologists of American Jewry Mashall Sklare, himself a Conservative or Reform Jew, confidently predicted in the early 50's that Orthodox Jewry would disappear, especially in the USA. I happened to have met Sklare's son during my college days at Yeshiva (madrassah?) University where he was also a student. And quite orthodox. I understand that after his stint at Y.U. he went on to study in a Kollel. Predictions on the demise of orthodox judaism or religion in general seem be an essential qualification for "progressive" intellectuals from Marx to Hitchens. It just doesn't seem to work. If you don't want to deal with the resurgence of Orthodox Judaism in its various streams, just look at the former Soviet Union, a.k.a., Russia. After 70 years of intense state sponsored atheism, the Russian Orthodox church is as strong as ever. And then there is Poland's story of the Catholic Church. I guess when push comes to shove, humans are far more theotropic beings than may be realized. It's quite late and I have to get up early in the morning for the daily Talmud class I attend (except on shabbat) before morning prayers & going to work as patent attorney dealing with biotechnology intellectual property. Oh, and my oldest son (who is also orthodox and attended madrassah before his IDF service as a combat medic) hands in his master's thesis in chemistry this week & will be continuing on at Hebrew University for his Ph.D. in physical pharmacology doing research in what is best described as molecular biophysics. Neanderthal family that we are. To be continued, I am sure. Shavua Tov, Hershel Ginsburg Efrata / Jerusalem P.S. One of the sources of growth in the Hareidi world are secular Israelis who have decided to miss the arts & sciences after having had the education. It works two ways.
- ginzy
August 28, 2010 at 7:03pm
ginzy- no comment on your broader and very detailed and thoughtful discussion, but I have for most of my life observed a very watered down (to you, I am sure) version of the sabbath and even in that form, it is a blessing.
- miceelf
August 28, 2010 at 8:20pm
Thank you Ginzy. It is unfortunate that Peretz does not appear to read any of the comments attached to any of his blogposts. Or has any awareness of the surge in Modern Orthodox in the United States, and the popularity of co-ed Torah reading, even amongst the alleged liberal Jews. Israel will survive Peretz's tenure in Tel Aviv, which I hope will be more of a learning than teaching experience for him.
- K2K
August 28, 2010 at 10:10pm
I'm an admirer or Marty Peretz's perspectives on Israel, but here I must differ. Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef is a respected Orthodox legal scholar who, perhaps, has found that mixing politics and religion is at one's peril. That being said, his rulings are read carefully by Ashkenazik and Sephardic Orthodox Jews. Comparing him to Muslim extremists who issue death sentences with a wave of the hand is just a knee-jerk, anti-clerical reaction from a Jew who doesn't take faith seriously.
- BarryList
August 28, 2010 at 11:04pm
Mr Peretz - This blog post is mostly nonsense, interlaced with some elements of truth to make the unsuspecting reader assume you have authority over what is written. You confuse dogma with piety. Ultra-orthodox women (of which I am not...) hold themselves to a level of piety. The Bible tells us that Bilam came to destroy ancient Israel found that even in the wilderness their tents were not facing each other. Religious Jews desire to be modest. They are not coerced, (as the case with the Taliban, who cut off the heads of even 7 year olds who don't comply) and proof of that is the many formerly orthodox teens and young adults who take up residence in secular Israel, often keeping close relations with their devout families. Rabbi Amar (an allay of Rabbi Yosef), the Chief Sephardic Rabbi of Israel, has a secular son who still comes to 'family' functions and is photographed in the presence of his father, not even wearing a yarmulke. Also - not that I am a fan of Sha"s or Eli Yishai, but to my knowledge, he has never been even charged, much less indicted on corruption (others in his party, such as Benizri and Deri have been indicted, charged, and served time in jail). In Israel, that comment could be construed as libelous.
- streaming
August 29, 2010 at 2:22am
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=186323 Another jewel from the cursing rabbi Ovadia. Yes, he is the spiritual leader of Shas, like this should excuse him or his idiotic diatribes against anything secular. ginzy: Nobody here claimed that the Haredi society is not complex. It was only claimed that it is intolerant, obscurantist and fundamentalist. It's influence on the State of Israel and Israeli society in general is deleterious and corrosive. Child abuse and sexual abuse are rampant and conveniently swept under the carpet. In addition, their discriminatory practices are an affront to the Israeli law. Please see: http://jta.org/news/article/2010/06/21/2739706/with-school-controversy-secular-haredi-tensions-reach-boiling-point The examples of Nahal Haredi notwithstanding, the great majority of the Haredi men and none of the women serve in the IDF. The Nahal Haredi in fact is a failed experiment and some of the units were in fact dismantled. The issue of head hair covering or shaving of head hair is another example of fundamentalism. Neither the Torah nor the other books of the Tanakh make any mention of this. In fact, this prohibition is a later addition of rabbinical judaism following the expulsion from Eretz Israel. Furthermore, erva or עֶרְוָוה in classical Hebrew refers to sexual organs. The reference here is not that hair is "sexual organ" per se, but that its ability, just like the female voice to arouse men is related to the woman being the tempress. Ginzy, I am impressed by your and your children service in the IDF and I am not about to disparage that. However, based on what you yourself said, you are not Haredi. Haredi refusal to serve in the IDF while at the same time milking the welfare system of the state they claim they do not recognize created a tear in the Israeli social fabric. We Israelis do not look on military service as something to be commended upon. As something to show of. Military service is just what we Israelis do. Men and women. We see those who do not as abusing our rights. We see as parasites those who do not do reserve duty while we spend at least one month per year removed from our families, our jobs, our interests.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
August 29, 2010 at 8:37am
I am inspired by Ginzy's exemplary life and achievements. They may be testimonial to the social and spiritual values of Modern Orthodoxy as well as his own talent, diligent work, and wisdom. His heartwarming anecdotes about Haredi integration and his clarifications about current social reality are also acknowledged and appreciated. I'm reluctant to push this subject much further in TNR. It belongs to a more exclusively Jewish forum. I get most of my information about Haredi integration issues from the Jerusalem Post (jpost.com), which seems reasonably fair in its reporting. I will only add that I am concerned that the increasing Haredization of Israel has lead to increased rigidity of requirements for conversions to Judaism. That further cements the power of rabbinical politicians and bureaucrats, but conflicts with the needs of the Israeli state. The state has a compelling interest in integrating several hundred thousand people, most from the former Soviet Union, who identify as Jews and Israelis but may not meet strict halachic requirements. A halachicly-based caste system would not only alienate such willing new Israelis, it would also needlessly inflame non-Jewish Israeli citizens.
- amidut
August 29, 2010 at 8:49am
First full disclosure. I did not serve in the IDF, having moved to Israel at the grand old age of 45. However 3 of my four kids did (or is, plus her husband). My other daughter opted for national service with One Family, an organization that provides material, emotional, and legal support to victims of terrorist attacks and their families. She did her service during some of the worst days of the Oslo Accords War and more than paid her dues. My goal was not to claim an exemplary life. It isn't any more exemplary (and actually may be a good deal less) than many others I know. Rather it was to break the stereotyping that was getting hot and heavy here. Makover, I don't know where you got your info on the Nahal Haredi, especially about it being a "failure". It did have a rough start and some of its earliest commanders were sacked. But it has come a long way (full disclosure: I know some boys who served in the unit, one as an officer & used to follow its development). I suggest you read this rather recent J.Post piece: http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=185395 You are correct when you say the vast majority of hareidi men do not serve in the IDF. Social upheavals & changes like these don't happen overnight. But as someone who wants to see the Hareidim more integrated into Israeli society, I see the current trends as encouraging. More than anything else economic realities will force the issue. BTW, one of the fastest growing groups of draft dodgers are secular, left wing youth from the Ashkenazi elite especially from the metro Tel Aviv area. And even when they do serve, more often than not, they try to avoid service in combat units. It's also telling that that a very large (30-40% or more) disproportional (to their fraction in the general population segment of those undergoing officer training for combat units come from the national-religious segment of the country. Indeed last year the IDF built a new, much larger synagogue (having rather striking architecture) at the Officer Training School to accommodate all of the religious officer candidates. The old synagogue was just way too small to meet the needs. The Torah doesn't command the wearing of clothes either but that was clearly the norm. By virtue of the fact that one way to disgrace a woman was to uncover her hair in public implies that the covered head is the norm. What is your source to say that it was an invention of post-exilic rabbinic judaism and which exile. Even assuming you are correct, it has been the norm minimally for nearly 2,000 years. Are their Halachic grounds to be lenient on hair covering? Yes. Like everything else in Jewish law it is a complex issue. But as amidut said, this is not for this forum. Nonetheless, what is clear that in this generation, even among the modern orthodox, newly married women usual (but not always) CHOOSE to cover their hair in public. I should have noted that my daughter-in-law (married to the physical chemistry student) DOES cover her hair although her sister (who is also orthodox) does not. As far as the prevalence of child and sexual abuse in the Hareidi world it is no more (or less) than the general population. My wife is a social worker and among other things does family counseling one day a week in a largely Hareidi area. The problems are no longer swept under the rugs as most of her referrals come because their rabbis told them to see her. Including the men. Also friends of ours who are psychologists and psychiatrists tell us of increasing demand for their service from the hareidi world. And some of the more successful Hareidi college programs (including what I mentioned above0 is to become social workers (BSW, as is the norm in Israel) to work within their own communities. Enough for now, I have to get back to work (at least for now). hg
- ginzy
August 29, 2010 at 9:51am
Ginzy: I am discussing the Haredi community in Israel. Not the Religious Zionists. They are this majority of officer corps training and not the Haredim. Even before I was drafted there were draft dodgers in Israel. The problem with Haredim is that they are draft dodgers en masse, claiming that Toratam Umanutam. Whether the head covering was the norm for 2,000 years or not does not make it right. However, I was not discussing head covering. I was discussing the claim that Sear Le Isha Erva or Kol le Isha Erva. If you think this is a reasonable rule and interpretation than we disagree. Regarding Rabbi Yosef, let's not forget that this is a man who called Yosi Sarrid publicly, an Amelek. I am sure that you know the consequences of what I would consider a fatwa. This is a man who calls on his followers not to obey the ruling of Israeli Supreme court. It is a man who on regular basis courses those whom he does not approve. I think you are waisting your effort defending this kind of a man.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
August 29, 2010 at 10:54am
And Yossi Sarid always uses the greatest linguistic restraint in his public pronouncements on whomever or whatever sector of Israeli society has gotten his goat on any given day... I see Rav Ovadiah's statements as no worse than Judeo-Nazis, brownshirts, and other such peaceful appellations that were (and are) hurled by the left-wing elite at those who in their mind were supposed to disappear. In other words, they can dish it out but can't take it. I am not saying that the Hareidim are there yet. I am saying that the current trends in certain segments of Hareid society are encouraging. Long lasting sociological changes to conservative societies take time and happen quietly. BTW how do you categorize (and hence relate to) the HarDaLim? A small but noticeable number of those going on for officer training seem to come from this growing segment of Israeli society. hg
- ginzy
August 29, 2010 at 11:15am
It's easy to cherry-pick crazy comments from a very old, probably senile man (who is utterly lacking in media savvy), but Ovadia Yosef's well-deserved status as religious leader and the admiration and respect he justly commands from hundreds of thousands of Jews world-wide are based on his copious Jewish-legal responsa which reflect his encyclopedic mastery of Jewish law. All of these are in Hebrew and very few have been translated. Marty Peretz is famously and completely ignorant of Hebrew. There is not a single responsum - and hardly even a sentence - R. Yosef has written in any of his responsa that Marty could read or, lacking as he does any background in Jewish law, that he could understand even if translated. In his responsa, R. Yosef has repeatedly demonstrated that he is a lenient posek (arbiter of Jewish law). A recently published responsum of R. Yosef actually recognized a conversion performed by a Conservative Beit Din which R. Yosef praised for its adherence to Jewish law. Peretz attacks him as though he were not only stringent in his legal rulings, but so stringent that he could be compared to the Taliban. Whatever one thinks of ultra-Orthodox Judaism, no one with the slightest bit of knowledge on that subject could characterize R. Yosef as Peretz does. To blast R. Yosef with no reason and no knowledge is simple character assassination.
- ravster
August 29, 2010 at 11:36am
I was going to post the good rabbi’s latest diatribe but I see that Makover beat me to it. All of the eloquent defenses of Rabbi Ovadia are being denied by the Rabbi himself: Here is the story by Y-net news: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3945494,00.html As you can see the PA has lost no time in accusing this lose canon of preaching genocide. I am also in agreement with the following comment by amidut: “I'm reluctant to push this subject much further in TNR. It belongs to a more exclusively Jewish forum…..” I will only add that I am concerned that the increasing Haredization of Israel has lead to increased rigidity of requirements for conversions to Judaism. That further cements the power of rabbinical politicians and bureaucrats, but conflicts with the needs of the Israeli state. The state has a compelling interest in integrating several hundred thousand people, most from the former Soviet Union, who identify as Jews and Israelis but may not meet strict halachic requirements. A halachicly-based caste system would not only alienate such willing new Israelis, it would also needlessly inflame non-Jewish Israeli citizens.” However, like amidut I read the Jpost and, “get most of my information about Haredi integration issues from the Jerusalem Post (jpost.com), which seems reasonably fair in its reporting.” I also have other more intimate sources about Haredi politics in Israel.
- jdyer
August 29, 2010 at 11:47am
ravster “It's easy to cherry-pick crazy comments from a very old, probably senile man (who is utterly lacking in media savvy), but Ovadia Yosef's well-deserved status as religious leader and the admiration and respect he justly commands from hundreds of thousands of Jews world-wide are based on his copious Jewish-legal responsa which reflect his encyclopedic mastery of Jewish law. All of these are in Hebrew and very few have been translated.” Give me a break, ravster. If someone writes thousands of brilliant legal opinions but also advocates murder, it’s not “cherry picking” to point it out. Ovadia’s friends need to shut him up. Tell him to stick to halachic writing. This is the same man who said that those who died in the Holocaust had transgressed against God. “Rabbi Says Holocaust Victims Were Sinners Says 6 Million Jews Were Reincarnated Sinners” http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96252&page=1 This has been repeated by every antisemitic website in the universe.
- jdyer
August 29, 2010 at 11:54am
Please Ginzy: Yosi Sarrid has never said anything about " Judeo-Nazis, brownshirts". However, the fact that some on the left talk nonsense in no way gives Rabbi Yosef, Harishon Letziyon the right to call an Israeli politician an Amalek. I don't know if the current trends among the Haredim are encouraging. This large undereducated underclass of people who have never worked in any productive endeavor, drawing heavily on state welfare system, demanding greater control as the conversion fiasco clearly shows. The Hardalim on the other hand are still stuck in their post Gaza withdrawal agonist phase. Their support of the settlement movement conflicts with the goals of the majority of Israelis.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
August 29, 2010 at 12:28pm
I have no problem cutting back on the welfare state. Quite the contrary. As I said earlier, it was Bibi's cutbacks that began the current trend toward working. And yes, there is a trend... hg
- ginzy
August 29, 2010 at 2:22pm
It's so easy for some people to accuse others of advocating murder. Ovadia Yosef does not advocate murder. Not even Peretz accuses him of such a thing. This is worse than cherry-picking. It's slander.
- ravster
August 29, 2010 at 2:56pm
ravster "It's so easy for some people to accuse others of advocating murder. Ovadia Yosef does not advocate murder. Not even Peretz accuses him of such a thing. This is worse than cherry-picking. It's slander." What do you call this? "Shas spiritual leader Ovadia Yosef prays for death of PA president." http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=186323
- jdyer
August 29, 2010 at 3:23pm
"It's so easy for some people to accuse others of advocating murder." It wasn't easy, for me at all, ravster. I wish the Rabbi would keep his opinions on secular issues to himself. Everytime his speaks he shows what an ass he is. Or do you agree with him that Jews murdered by the Nazis had it coming?
- jdyer
August 29, 2010 at 3:25pm
Ginzy: I hope you are right that there is a trend. It will do wonders for improving the relations between the secular and the religious. ravster: Ovadia Yosef is a disgrace. Every time he opens his mouth he spews another foolishness. When it is strictly for local consumption like when he attacks the members of Israeli Teacher Association fine. However, when he injects himself into foreign affairs he gives credence to those who call Israel a clerical, Taliban like state.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
August 29, 2010 at 3:58pm
Again, you are cherry-picking and indulging in some very sloppy reading. Of course the statement about the six million is foul. These are the words of a senile old man. But that makes him comparable to the Taliban? Of course not. Regarding the J Post article linked by jdyer, there is no call for murder anywhere in it. At worst, and the Post hedges by saying the statement was "reported" in an article otherwise replete with quotations, R. Yosef asks for God to punish Israel's enemies, which, whatever you want to think of it, is not a call for murder. It is not a fatwa and by invoking God it expressly forbids murder, which as jdyer surely knows, is carried out by human beings. It's exactly the same thing every traditional Jew wishes for on Passover when the Haggada calls for God to pour out His wrath on the nations. It is precisely because God's justice is considered by the believing Jew to be perfect that punishment is taken out of the hands of man. Perhaps some readers did not understand that. I hope that now you do. Nor does anything R. Yosef says support in any way the accusation that Israel is a clerical state. R. Yosef is not a public official, he is not the head of Shas, as some contributors to this page have erroneously claimed. He has no official role in government. The Taliban, on the other hand, are the government, to the extent that their country has a government at all. You disagree with him, fine; you wish he would keep his mouth shut? Fine. I often feel the same way. But where is there any equivalence with the Taliban? That's ridiculous and, please remember, that accusation is the crux of the Peretz blog. I am not a follower of R. Yosef, but there is no basis to Peretz' even speaking of him and the Taliban in the same breath. His reputation is as a halachist and his credentials as such are impeccable. He is generally a maykil and not a machmir (lenient rather than stringent) and he deserves better than to have the abuse found on this page heaped upon him. That is the true disgrace.
- ravster
August 29, 2010 at 4:45pm
Marty Peretz: “Yes, this is far-fetched. But Ovadia Yosef is a religious figure not quite but sufficiently similar to the Taliban in its dogmatics of the second-class status of women to make the comparison. The condition of the pious woman in Israel will not be improved in our time.” ravster “Again, you are cherry-picking and indulging in some very sloppy reading. Of course the statement about the six million is foul. These are the words of a senile old man. But that makes him comparable to the Taliban? Of course not.” I am not “cherry picking.” Either Ovadia is a “senile old man,” or else he is a brilliant Rabbi, whose every word should be scrutinized for its wisdom. Take your pick; you can’t have it both ways. And when did Rabbi Ovadia become senile: a year ago, ten years ago? Was he senile when he blamed the victims of the Nazis for their plight? As for the comparison to the Taliban, I would not have made it myself. (Rather I make the comparison and even here only partial between Neturei Karta and Islamicists like Hamas and Hezbollah which is why they love to travel to Iran and kiss Ahmadinejad’s ring.) Marty, though, loves bold comparisons that make everyone angry. That’s his style. He does it with Muslims, with Catholics (and many Protestant denominations) and with Jews. He is an equal opportunity offender. In this case, he only compared one aspect of their ideas: those dealing with women. Of course, even here the brutality of the Taliban makes the comparison a bit odious. Still, he made his point. He doesn’t like socio-religious ideas that place women in a subservient position to men. Neither do I. So why not say it?
- jdyer
August 29, 2010 at 7:08pm
ravster: "R. Yosef asks for God to punish Israel's enemies," Yes, he did, and it is making headlines, and was denounced by State Dep't spokesman PJ Crowley. What I would like to know is why what any rabbi says in synagogue is making headlines. Is this on YouTube? Is there a secret recording that got leaked? Or is this "quote" based on hearsay from some in attendance? What is getting lost in translation from Hebrew? Peretz's timing of this post (a total coincidence) means this blog entry shows up with all these headlines. Not that there is anything wrong with that, just means some people will maybe think R. Yosef is the Mullah Omar of Israel. Personally, I agree with the concept (bigger earthquake in Iran also still in my thoughts), but R. Yosef should have not mentioned Abu Mazen by name, if he actually did, three days before Netanyahu sits down to dinner in the White House. R. Yosef turns 90 soon. I read his wiki entry, and am very impressed by his Talmudic scholarship. Maybe he did this to bring attention to the existence of the Mizrahi. He was born in Basra, Iraq but his family moved to Palestine in 1924. I have been seeing more news recently about the Mizrahi who were expelled after 1948 and the value of property confiscated, as part of Israel's attempt to get their narrative more known.
- K2K
August 29, 2010 at 9:22pm
I'm very surprised that Ovadia's comments were considered so outrageous that even the American Secretary of state saw fit to reprimand him for it. I wonder how she would have reacted had the Israeli Foreign Minister conveyed similar sentiments of disapproval over comments made by Louis Farakhan or the Reverend Wright about Israeli Jews or just Jews, generally and demanded that she distance herself from them.
- noga1
August 29, 2010 at 11:22pm
BTW, Marty sees R. Ovadia and is reminded of Taliban. Maybe this is why: http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.torahcenter.com/_borders/ovadia1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.torahcenter.com/r-ovadia.htm&usg=__WpZAUD26NooiNnw1rGTlYw4tymk=&h=325&w=272&sz=20&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=nWJ-iEBPdG3WyM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3DOvadia%2Byoseph%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D596%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C192&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=313&vpy=43&dur=1774&hovh=245&hovw=205&tx=111&ty=181&ei=wiV7TOO_IoL48AaXtunnBQ&oei=wiV7TOO_IoL48AaXtunnBQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0&biw=1024&bih=596
- noga1
August 29, 2010 at 11:30pm
Perhaps the solution here would be for Israel to somehow impose the same formula on the rabbinate that Costa Rica maintains with the Roman Catholic Church. Namely, subsidies for religious institutions will continue, but only on condition that the rabbinate stays out of politics. There are many ethical issues of contemporary life, and I'm sure we can think of some of them, that the rabbis could fruitfully address through their traditions as representatives of a great religion that would be received with great respect if their establishment wasn't sullied by political mud.
- NR114746
August 30, 2010 at 12:56am
jdyer: "I am not 'cherry picking.' Either Ovadia is a 'senile old man,' or else he is a brilliant Rabbi, whose every word should be scrutinized for its wisdom. Take your pick; you can’t have it both ways." You must have it both ways. The world isn't so simple. Most of the writings that gained for R. Yosef his international stature as a great halachist are decades-old. That R. Yosef is the one who is revered by Jews, not the man who stammers out an occasional screamer. Which is the real R. Yosef? Like every one of us who grows old and who perhaps loses his inhibitions about expressing opinions held deep within, R. Yosef is both the young scholar and the senile old man. I hope those who know jdyer will judge him a little less harshly when he ages than he judges R. Yosef. jdyer's comments reveal a bias against rabbis and against Jewish tradition. No one's every word must or can be "scrutinized for its wisdom." No rabbi, not even a great rabbi, is the Torah whose words, we believe do contain the kind of wisdom jdyer seems to scoff at. R. Yosef is just a man and like all men he has his faults, amplified now by old age and by the media's peculiar obsession with him. Well, perhaps not so peculiar. The media has the same bias as jdyer. In the arrogant little world of the cock-sure, a world in which it is impossible to imagine that those who disagree with us might fall even a step shy of the Taliban, it is indeed easy to cherry-pick not only statements we don't like but also to condemn the entire religious world view of a man like R. Yosef. Personally, I cannot accept that world view. My rejection of it may be even more complete than that of jdyer, but I respect it. I know where it comes from and how it developed. In my world, calling someone an advocate of murder on no evidence is a horrible thing to do, even on a page that exists only in the ether and will never reach the ears or eyes of the old man who is the target.
- ravster
August 30, 2010 at 3:43am
I agree with ravster about old people. Seinfeld said it best: "To me, the thing about old people is that everything about them gets smaller. You know, their bodies get smaller, they move into smaller places, they sleep less time, they eat smaller meals ... except the car. The older they get, the bigger their car gets. They're all driving these Detroit behemoths. I've never understood that. And old people have a way of backing out of the driveway. They don't turn from side to side. Their attitude is "I'm old and I'm coming back." "I've been around a while, now. You watch out for me, buddy, I survived, let's see you do it." And then once they get out there, they drive so slowly. I would think the less time you have left in life, the faster you would want to go. I think old people should be allowed to drive their age. If you're eighty, do eighty. If you're a hundred, go a hundred. They can't see where they're going anyway, let them have a little fun out there."
- noga1
August 30, 2010 at 7:58am
NR114746 "Namely, subsidies for religious institutions will continue, but only on condition that the rabbinate stays out of politics. There are many ethical issues of contemporary life, and I'm sure we can think of some of them, that the rabbis could fruitfully address through their traditions as representatives of a great religion that would be received with great respect if their establishment wasn't sullied by political mud." Well, there's an idea. It opens up a way solve a multitude of PR problems by imposing radio silence. Just stop all transmissions. We could advise Israel to employ similar restraint on the Arab-Israeli leadership as well. Or on that other organization of inconvenient political busy bodies, the Histadrut (Israel's organization of trade unions). Silencing by bribery. What a great democratic concept.
- noga1
August 30, 2010 at 8:07am
Ravster: “You must have it both ways. The world isn't so simple.” How does complexity make it possible for you to have it both ways? You are just mouthing words, ravster. “Most of the writings that gained for R. Yosef his international stature as a great halachist are decades-old.” Who cares, this is irrelevant to the malicious nonsense he has been spouting for decades now. Nonsense such as blaming the Jews murdered at Auschwitz and elsewhere for their fate. “That R. Yosef is the one who is revered by Jews, not the man who stammers out an occasional screamer.” Excuse me, most Jews in the world don’t revere that Rabbi Yosef. “Which is the real R. Yosef? Like every one of us who grows old and who perhaps loses his inhibitions about expressing opinions held deep within, R. Yosef is both the young scholar and the senile old man.” This is a pathetic excuse for not condemning what he said and moving on. Many, perhaps most, people when they grow old do not go around uttering hateful nonsense. Say what you will about them Shimon Peres who is just as old doesn’t do that, neither did Einstein, nor Freud. ( I am not a Freudian, btw) There are many, many other famous old men who don’t and didn’t act so bizarrely as your Rabbi. “I hope those who know jdyer will judge him a little less harshly when he ages than he judges R. Yosef.” I hope they don’t. People judge me harshly now, I can live with it. “dyer's comments reveal a bias against rabbis and against Jewish tradition.” Bullshit, Yosef is not the whole of the Jewish tradition, he is not even one percent of the Jewish tradition, and you ravster speak for even less of the Jewish tradition than does Yosef.
- jdyer
August 30, 2010 at 2:38pm
Seinfeld, the friend of Michael Richards, needs to learn about young people before he starts preaching about old people.
- jdyer
August 30, 2010 at 2:44pm
NR114746 "Namely, subsidies for religious institutions will continue, but only on condition that the rabbinate stays out of politics. There are many ethical issues of contemporary life, and I'm sure we can think of some of them, that the rabbis could fruitfully address through their traditions as representatives of a great religion that would be received with great respect if their establishment wasn't sullied by political mud." It may not be practical in a democracy, but it is well said. I am often amused by those who hate government welfare programs yet wish to make exceptions of their pet programs, be they religious, or political.
- jdyer
August 30, 2010 at 2:48pm
Leave it to the great chochem , Ovadia Yosef, to make the holocaust denier Mahmoud Abbas, (aka Abu Mazen) look like a victim.
- jdyer
August 30, 2010 at 3:11pm
08/30/2010 - 3:43am EDT | ravster "I hope those who know jdyer will judge him a little less harshly when he ages than he judges R. Yosef." what jdyer posts at TNR is, as he admits, often an expression of his 'orneriness'. I appreciate ravster's comments in this thread. And, though I am not observant, I join R. Yosef in his prayers for a Biblical plague from a vengeful G-d to strike down all who, when THEY pray to Allah, want Jews dead. I wonder if Hindus pray for the same (as Rabbi Yosef) from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu "Brahma the creator, Vishnu the maintainer or preserver, and Shiva the destroyer". After all, it was the River Indus that flooded, not the River Ganges.
- K2K
August 30, 2010 at 3:19pm
"I wonder if Hindus pray for the same (as Rabbi Yosef) from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu "Brahma the creator, Vishnu the maintainer or preserver, and Shiva the destroyer". " There you have it, pace K2, Ovadia would make a very good Hindu. Halleluiah………….
- jdyer
August 30, 2010 at 5:08pm
"ADL condemns Rabbi Yosef's comment on Palestinians" http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3946444,00.html "The Anti-Defamation League condemned the comments made by Shas leader Rabbi Ovadia Yosef against the Palestinian people. In an official statement released, the ADL said that the rabbi's statements "offensive and incendiary." "Particularly on the eve of renewed peace talks, and on the eve of the Jewish New Year, one would have hoped that Rav Yosef could have inspired his students and followers with a message of hope, humility, repentance and forgiveness," said ADL National Director Abraham Foxman. (Ynet) "
- jdyer
August 30, 2010 at 5:13pm
Here is more: http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=186372 "PM pulls back from Yosef’s words" By HERB KEINON, KHALED ABU TOAMEH AND JONAH MANDEL "Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu rushed on Sunday evening to distance himself and his government from Rabbi Ovadia Yosef’s death wish for Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian people, after the flood of angry Palestinian reactions to the comments. “These words do not reflect the approach of Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, nor the position of the government of Israel,” the Prime Minister’s Office said in a statement."
- jdyer
August 30, 2010 at 5:15pm
"I join R. Yosef in his prayers for a Biblical plague from a vengeful G-d to strike down all who, when THEY pray to Allah, want Jews dead." Right. Here is what he actually said: "Abu Mazan and all the other evil ones should perish. May the Lord strike them with a plague, them and all those Palestinians who do evil upon Israel." I can't quite figure out either Jackson's or Marty's consternation over what Yoseph said. Apparently enlightened Israelis are not supposed to have any normal feelings and are not supposed to feel angry about Palestinians' inexorable attempts to bring about the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state. To the murderous incitement, Holocaust denials and revisionism of history that inundate Palestinian media, politics, education, enlightened Israelis are supposed to reciprocate with sweetness and light. http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2010/08/video-palestinian-authority-tv-to-kids-i/index.shtml I suspect that what we see is a residue of Ashkenazi contempt for Sephardic Jews which was pretty much conventional fare in Israel during the fifties and sixties. Also. Marty's closing the gap between someone like Yoseph and the Taliban also reminds me of what Israel's "poet laureate" Bialik is reputed to have said: "I dislike the Sephardim because they are too much like Arabs". I remember hearing one literary critic dismissing this as a failed joke. He explained that this sentiment was not really bigotry as it was modeled after an old Yiddish saying: "I dislike my wife because she is too much like my mother in law". Ha ha. When Marty still had a man crush on candidate Obama he tried to exonerate the execrable Rashid Khalidi as "almost a Zionist". Funny how he managed to overstretch his own credulity in order to swallow this venomous man. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=771PNZLLZZI) just because he so much wanted Obama to win this election. Apparently none of this magnanimous flexibility and critical mindset were available to him before he decided to demonstrate his own superior morality over the likes of Yoseph. No such agnostic respect is merited when that "frank parech" Yoseph is concerned. He must be pilloried by the most egregious analogy of a backward, murderous religious sect available. Nice work, Mr. Peretz. I wonder if what icarusr and roudubouloi are saying about you is not basically correct, that you are a bigot at heart and quite an ignoramus in certain things. ___________ For a more accurate assessment of the Rabbi I suggest you read Prof. Sharkansky's blog: "As I was still wondering who I was early this morning, I heard the 6 o'clock news report that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef had used his weekly sermon to curse the Palestinians and wish an early death for their leaders. "Abu Mazan and all the other evil ones should perish. May the Lord strike them with a plague, them and all those Palestinians who do evil upon Israel." http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/1/1726897 The followers of Rabbi Ovadia view him as a holy man and a genius on the law of Torah. He had a term as the Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel, was the creator of the ultra-Orthodox party SHAS, and remains its spiritual leader. The pious kiss his hands when they are fortunate enough to get close. Political leaders and those who aspire to leadership seek the opportunity to don skull caps and enter the Rabbi's rooms for a conference and hopefully a blessing. The Rabbi is about to celebrate his 90th birthday, and is inclined to murky and outlandish comments. Usually one of his handlers is quick to correct or explain something likely to embarrass the community. So far we have not heard from a handler on these comments, perhaps because they are close to the sentiments of other party leaders. Some years ago Rabbi Ovadia staked out a position of accommodation with the Palestinians. In order to save Jewish lives, it would be appropriate to make territorial concessions. He has returned to that theme, but more often has expressed himself on the hawkish side of the spectrum. He condemned the withdrawal of settlements from Gaza. Eli Yishai, the leader of SHAS MKs and Minister of Interior, is one of the most outspoken members of the government expressing skepticism about the upcoming talks with the Palestinians, and supporting a resumption of building in Jewish settlements throughout the West Bank. " http://www.usefulwork.com/shark/archives/014202.html#014202
- noga1
August 30, 2010 at 5:25pm
Thanks noga, for Rabbi Ovadia's exact words. Very Exodus. and for posting from Prof. Sharkansky's blog. Peretz's bigotry is with the ultra-religious of any faith, but verbally lethal when it comes to ultra-Orthodox Jews. Secularism is part of the liberal ethos. Rumor has it that Strawberry Kool-Aid will be served at the WH dinner on Thursday instead of wine, out of consideration for the Muslim ban on alcohol. Ok, I started that rumour in my comment at the JPost posted Ron Kampeas/JTA report http://www jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=186302 that ended with Hillary's attendance at the dinner, adding "Clinton has long been seen as having strong emotional ties to Israel - ties that Israelis feel Obama lacks." Netanyahu, Mubarak, and Jordan's King Abdullah should bring their own food, citing special dietary needs :)
- K2K
August 30, 2010 at 6:31pm
"Secularism is part of the liberal ethos. " I'm all for secularism. However, Marty's comment likening R. Yoseph to the Taliban has nothing to do with his secularist bent. Nothing whatsoever. He was speaking as a Jew, embarrassed by the plainspeaking of another Jew whom he considers too low in the pecking order to hazard an opinion. In the past he compared Hamas to Taliban, a comparison even I thought was exaggerated. And now he has gone one better and compared Yoseph to Taliban. I suppose that means that R. Yoseph is exactly like Hamas. Marty is due for some rude awakening in Israel. He may finally realize that Israelis are not American Jews' younger brothers. And a good thing, too.
- noga1
August 30, 2010 at 7:15pm
This isn't the first time Ovadia came out with some outrageous nonsense. His comments about the Holocaust by itself should have been enough to brand him as a thoughtless imp who has little understanding of the world outside his books.
- jdyer
August 30, 2010 at 9:01pm
"Marty is due for some rude awakening in Israel. He may finally realize that Israelis are not American Jews' younger brothers. And a good thing, too." Which Israelis are you talking about? The ones in Mea Shearim or the one's in Tel Aviv? Ovadia's supporters, or the supporters of Kadima?
- jdyer
August 30, 2010 at 9:04pm
"Ovadia's supporters, or the supporters of Kadima?" I don't think I understand you question, jackson. How do you define the difference between those Israelis and these Israelis? By your own identification with those rather than these?
- noga1
August 30, 2010 at 9:20pm
TNR.com Sinks to New Low. A different title for this post to lure reasers into tThe Spine from the top story banner: "Peretz: Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and the Battle for Jewish Souls" as IF that were what this post is about. For shame. Peretz is worse than a bigot to use his own post to turn TNR into a tabloid. The National Enquirer has more integrity than The New Republic, trading on a long-lost reputation.
- K2K
August 30, 2010 at 10:54pm
noga1 My question was in response to your comment that: “Marty is due for some rude awakening in Israel. He may finally realize that Israelis are not American Jews' younger brothers. And a good thing, too.” Which assumes that there is a single type of Israeli; there isn’t. I also don’t know where Marty said that Israelis are American’s “younger brothers?” Can you offer one quote by Marty to support your view?
- jdyer
August 30, 2010 at 11:07pm
I think my meaning would have been plenty clear from my post, jackson. No, I have not read "Marty [saying] that Israelis are American’s “younger brothers” and I cannot offer one quote by Marty to support this view. I was merely expressing my opinion about what motivates him. Surely you, of all posters here, know how it works as you are always imputing motives to people you infer from their attitudes to certain subjects? Marty ought to be ashamed of himself, comparing R. Yoseph to Taliban.
- noga1
August 31, 2010 at 7:02am
FWIW, I think the holocaust comment is truly awful. it's worse than the comment about abbas, although I have to say if one thinks to single out Abbas as worthy of death, then there truly is no hope at all for any kind of peace. he seems to be pretty far down the list of people worthy of death. Eliminate Abbas, and I don't see how things get better. Israel has a whole host of enemies- of all people to single out. If the holocaust comment and the recent more minor statements come from a place of mental illness, well, that would inspire pity, but it would make them no more excusable. Instead, if Rabbi Yosef is truly mentally ill, I have to wonder about the people around him and what their motivations are. (as an aside, and more local to the US, Rabbi Yosef also blamed Katrina on the debauchery in New Orleans, joining a proud tradition of American charlatans (not claiming he's a charlatan, just that in this case he agrees with the American ones a la falwell and co). pfft. Theodicy.
- miceelf
August 31, 2010 at 9:34am
Rabbi Yoseph presides over the ten mandates that any coalition builder in Israel would have to bribe in order to get them to join. That means that Yoseph serves his constituency well. He gets for them what they want, and by leveraging a very small numerical advantage to the best effect. In this he follows in the footsteps of what the religious parties have done ever since whenever. Most Israelis complain, repeatedly about it, about the injustice of it, the lack of equality in the distribution of funds, the importance arrogated to these rabbis who sometimes seem to be unaware of the people who protect them. With the proper election system reform, the power of these religious parties will disappear overnight. Actually, it is Avigdor Lieberman who best expresses the general wish in this regard. Total secularization of Israel, a strict separation of state and synagogue, so that the state can actually get on with the business of developing the best Jewish ethos and democracy. This he shares with the Leftist parties but then they wouldn't be seen with his party because he doesn't share their view about how to solve the Palestinian question. So as far as I can see, unless Israelis decide that the priorities of their state lie in trying to determine the nature of the state as a secular Jewish state with all that this entails and without cringing to the rabbinical authorities, people like R. Yoseph will continue to have a voice far more influential and possibly discordant than his wisdom or constituencies deserve. There has to be a will to act in decisive and clear manner but to me it seems that Israelis are just too tired by other conflicts to take this on as the most urgent issue which I think it is. What will not help is the kind of demonization Marty engages in. Israelis do not like people who have a safe and comfortable life far away telling them what's what. They know it all and far better than anybody else. And their solutions, eventually, will be Israeli solutions which may not curry much favour with their American co-religionists.
- noga1
August 31, 2010 at 9:47am
"I was merely expressing my opinion about what motivates him." Whatever.
- jdyer
August 31, 2010 at 9:57am
"although I have to say if one thinks to single out Abbas as worthy of death, then there truly is no hope at all for any kind of peace." Abbass was not singled for death. He was cursed as the maligner of Israel that he is: A Holocaust denier who names public squares after vicious terrorists who mass murdered Israelis. I remember many a liberal wish for Bush to die, for Netanyahu to be killed, without a fraction of this hullabalu.
- noga1
August 31, 2010 at 10:05am
Noga, you're usually a careful parser of words, and I have to acknowledge your long and thoughtful post about the path forward, in terms of secularism and accomodation of the rabbinical. But I did not say "singled for death"- I said "singled out as worthy of death"- and I am absolutely correct about that. even if your take on Abbas is correct, why was he the one mentioned by name, on the eve of peace talks? The world is full of far more evil and vile antisemites, who aren't serving as a (temporary? hopeful? possible?) restraint against far worse. And, I go back to the holocaust comments and the Katrina ones.
- miceelf
August 31, 2010 at 10:34am
Editorial: Heavenly appeals By JPOST EDITORIAL 08/31/2010 06:22 Abbas's prayer didn't encourage toward moderation. "‘Incitement” and “a call for genocide” were the labels used by Palestinian politicians to describe the supplications of Shas mentor Rabbi Ovadia Yosef in his latest Saturday night sermon. While outlining customs during Rosh Hashana dinner – such as dipping an apple in honey – to petition God for a sweet, successful new year, the nonagenarian halachic authority added a personal prayer: “May our enemies and hate-mongers vanish, Abu Mazen [PA President Mahmoud Abbas] and all those evildoers be lost from the world, may God smite them with the plague, them and the Palestinians, evildoers and Israel-haters.” Saeb Erekat, the Palestinian Authority’s chief negotiator, said in response, “Is this how the Israeli people are preparing for peace with the Palestinians?” It was glaringly disingenuous of Erekat to attempt to transform the intemperate public plea for divine intervention – not a call to action – by an elderly spiritual leader who represents a fraction of public opinion into the definitive stand of the Israeli people, not to mention a call for genocide. However, Erekat did hit on an important point: How is the Israeli leadership preparing its people for peace with the Palestinians? And by the same token, how is the PA laying the groundwork for peace with Israel? PRIME MINISTER Binyamin Netanyahu, who rightly distanced himself Sunday from Yosef’s comments, made a major step toward peace back in June 2009 when he broke with Likud’s platform and publicly advocated a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Seen as the only way to keep Israel both Jewish and democratic, a two-state arrangement enjoys broad-based support among Israelis. While Netanyahu has yet to articulate his vision of final status, he has repeatedly shown a willingness to engage in direct negotiations with the PA without preconditions. He even took the confidence-building step last November of imposing an unprecedented 10-month construction freeze on new Jewish homes in the West Bank, despite the unpopularity of the move within part of his coalition. By contrast, Abbas is barely able to justify his consent to participate this week in US-sponsored direct talks with Israel before his public, which is still being fed a relentless diet of Israeli delegitimation in the PA media he controls. Just last Wednesday in Ramallah, PA security authorities violently stifled a demonstration organized by the National Conference Against Direct Talks, a coalition consisting of hundreds of political factions, organizations, institutions and figures from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The PA president has lost his people’s confidence for the “crime” of caving in to US and Israeli demands to launch direct negotiations without preconditions, after having held out for months for a complete building freeze in both the West Bank and east Jerusalem as a prerequisite for talks. To save face and to assure his people that he would not sell them out, Abbas announced on Sunday that the Palestinians would be entering the talks based on a declaration made in March by the Mideast Quartet calling for a complete building freeze as a first step toward dismantling “occupation.” A US-funded campaign on PA-controlled TV, radio and billboards to garner support for talks, which ideally should be preparing the Palestinians to recognize Israel as the national state of the Jewish people that has the right to live in peace alongside an autonomous Palestinian state, will instead attempt to justify the PA’s highly unpopular willingness to enter direct negotiations at all. A BELLWETHER of Palestinian political sentiment was provided on August 19, in a PA-sponsored funeral attended by Abbas and his Prime Minister Salam Fayyad that glorified Amin al-Hindi, one of the masterminds of the September 1972 Munich Olympics massacre of 11 Israeli athletes and coaches. Al-Hayat al-Jadida, the official PA daily, noted that Hindi was “one of the stars who sparkled... at the sports stadium in Munich,” according to Palestinian Media Watch. At the end of the ceremony, the paper reported, Abbas and others present read the opening sura of the Koran for the “elevation” of Hindi’s “pure soul.” This prayer for Hindi’s soul, delivered by the political leader of the Palestinians, failed to receive the media coverage enjoyed by Rabbi Yosef’s supplication. Whether it was heartfelt or a necessary bow to the public opinion he has failed to encourage sufficiently toward moderation, the implications of Abbas’s heavenly appeal are almost certainly far more central than that delivered by the Shas leader to the prospects of success in the direct talks." http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Editorials/Article.aspx?id=186543 [more examples of this 'blame-the-Jews' syndrome: http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=186535 "Incitement is not one-sided By ISRAEL KASNETT 08/31/2010 05:14 Rabbi Ovadia Yosef’s recent remarks were callous and unhelpful, but for the Palestinians to react the way they did is hypocritical. ..."
- K2K
August 31, 2010 at 12:02pm
[Abbas' PUBLIC prayer for the soul of al-Hindi, the butcher of Israelis at 1972 Munich Olympics, repeated from previous post for emphasis]: "...A BELLWETHER of Palestinian political sentiment was provided on August 19, in a PA-sponsored funeral attended by Abbas and his Prime Minister Salam Fayyad that glorified Amin al-Hindi, one of the masterminds of the September 1972 Munich Olympics massacre of 11 Israeli athletes and coaches. Al-Hayat al-Jadida, the official PA daily, noted that Hindi was “one of the stars who sparkled... at the sports stadium in Munich,” according to Palestinian Media Watch. At the end of the ceremony, the paper reported, Abbas and others present read the opening sura of the Koran for the “elevation” of Hindi’s “pure soul.” This prayer for Hindi’s soul, delivered by the political leader of the Palestinians, failed to receive the media coverage enjoyed by Rabbi Yosef’s supplication. Whether it was heartfelt or a necessary bow to the public opinion he has failed to encourage sufficiently toward moderation, the implications of Abbas’s heavenly appeal are almost certainly far more central than that delivered by the Shas leader to the prospects of success in the direct talks." http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Editorials/Article.aspx?id=186543
- K2K
August 31, 2010 at 12:06pm
If you require from everyone who negotiates that they shed the identity that makes negotiating required in the first place, no negotiations can ever happen. As John Hume used to say in Northern Ireland, "you will be negotiating with your enemies, not with your friends."
- ironyroad
August 31, 2010 at 1:12pm
ironyroad inadvertently put his finger on why these "negotiations" will fail. Because Palestinians think that admiring terrorists and denying the Holocaust is part of their ethnic identity. Peace talks will succeed only when Palestinians will undergo a paradigm change, that is, will adopt an identity that means being a Palestinian does not mean the annihilation of Israel. When that happens, we will recognize the moment.
- noga1
August 31, 2010 at 1:44pm
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=147&x_article=1915 August 30, 2010 by Tamar Sternthal: "The Incitement Double Standard: Ovadia Yosef vs PA Leadership" [examples of disproportionate media coverage] An Aug. 19 Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, the official Palestinian Authority newspaper, article reported: "The Palestinian leadership, along with President Mahmoud Abbas, parted yesterday from the body of the Fatah leader and fighter patriot Amin Al-Hindi. This was at an imposing official military funeral that was held at the [PA] headquarters to bid farewell to the Shahid (Martyr)..." From first NYT report posted by Isabel Kershner at 3:00 pm, on the murder of four Israelis, perhaps five if one of the women was pregnant. Too soon for Abbas to condemn but Hamas has already praised the murders (in earlier Reuters report below) : "...Many Palestinian and Israeli officials were en route to the talks, so there was little immediate official reaction. The attack took place near the settlement of Kiryat Arba, adjacent to Hebron in the southern West Bank. The victims — identified as two men and two women — all came from Beit Hagai, a smaller settlement south of Hebron. ..." more: "...Lt. Col. Avital Leibovich, a military spokeswoman, described the shootings as a “severe terrorist attack” that came after a two-year period of stability in the West Bank, during which Israel eased many restrictions on Palestinian movement. Roadblocks in the area of the attack had been removed two years ago, she said. Settlers, many of whom have little faith in the Palestinians or the prospects of peace, were enraged. Tzviki Bar-Hai, the chairman of the South Mount Hebron settlers’ council, told Israel Radio, “For the past 100 years there has been a link between the Jewish people’s desire to live and the Arab people’s desire to kill us.” ..." http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/01/world/middleeast/01settlers.html Reuters report at 2:39 p.m.: "..."Hamas praises the attack and regards it as a natural response to the crimes of the occupation," said Sami Abu-Zuhri, a Hamas spokesman in Gaza. He said the attack was proof "of a failure of security coordination" between Israel and the Palestinians -- a reference to the Western-backed Palestinian Authority whose U.S.-trained forces have been credited with suppressing armed militants in their territory. ..."
- K2K
August 31, 2010 at 3:31pm
Looks like September 3 is going to be a big news day, with the start of direct talks, and, in case Abbas forgot to check his calendar, September 3 is also Qods Day: "Hamas Spokesman: The Ummah Must Prepare Its Army To Liberate Palestine, Al-Aqsa" "Hamas spokesman Isma'il Radwan said that International Qods (Jerusalem) Day, started by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, founder of the Islamic Revolution in Iran, will be held this year with signals of the broad Iranian support for Palestine and for Jerusalem, in the face of the Arabs' failure in their attitude towards Palestine. Qods Day falls on September 3 this year. Radwan called on the Arab and Islamic ummah to support the Palestinian resistance, and to prepare the "army of liberation and Jerusalem" to liberate Al-Aqsa mosque and Palestine. Hamas official Mushir Al-Masri said that Qods Day proves that the liberation of Jerusalem and the raising of the banner of Islam over the minarets is nigh. " Source: Paltoday.ps, August 30, 2010 http://www.thememriblog.org/blog_personal/en/29915.htm
- K2K
August 31, 2010 at 3:41pm
The BBC just aired their coverage of the four+baby executions near Kiryat Arba, adjacent to Hebron. The BBC showed the car, with each bullethole highlighted with white tape. They ended the segment showing the cheering children in Gaza, and the celebration march ordered by Hamas, with the final image showing a young boy, holding what looks like an AK-47, sitting on his father's shoulders in the celebration.
- K2K
August 31, 2010 at 6:15pm
Already the peace talks are yielding dividends. No doubt the Palestinians terrorists were greatly angered by Yoseph's words and their response is only understandable in the circumstances.
- noga1
August 31, 2010 at 6:50pm
Noga, has anyone claimed anything remotely like what you wrote?
- miceelf
August 31, 2010 at 7:40pm
What do you mean, miceelf, that I am not allowed to express anger for the murders of these innocent people just because some Palestinians don't consider Jews as fully human beings? Wait a while and you'll hear all about how these settlers deserved to be murdered.
- noga1
August 31, 2010 at 7:59pm
I would say the Palestinian terrorists are greatly angered by the start of negotiations and their response is understandable as an attempt to sabotage them by all means possible. They are making the calculation that the lukewarm support in Israel for talks will turn into hostility if they kill enough people. And I'm not even that smart.
- ironyroad
August 31, 2010 at 10:03pm
"lukewarm support " That's a wild overestimation.
- noga1
August 31, 2010 at 10:09pm
In that case, it looks like what's needed is political leadership that can change that.
- ironyroad
August 31, 2010 at 11:20pm
Change what?
- noga1
August 31, 2010 at 11:43pm
"Apparently enlightened Israelis are not supposed to have any normal feelings and are not supposed to feel angry about Palestinians' inexorable attempts to bring about the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state." Noga, this is a strange statement. Of course Israelis have normal feelings of anger and frustration with the Palestinians. They say publicly and often. But this is not just any Israeli, this is the spiritual leader of a major party in Israel. Although not the head of Shas he nevertheless is the person who guides the hand of the leaders. "Political leaders and those who aspire to leadership seek the opportunity to don skull caps and enter the Rabbi's rooms for a conference and hopefully a blessing." And you consider this to be a good thing? I don't. Today in New York Times, Thomas Friedman compares Ovadia Yosef to the leaders of Hamas "On Tuesday, Palestinian gunmen murdered four West Bank Israeli settlers, including a pregnant woman; Hamas proudly claimed credit. In Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who heads the largest ultra-Orthodox party, Shas, used his Shabbat sermon to declare that he hoped the Palestinian president and his people would die. “All these evil people should perish from this world ... God should strike them with a plague, them and these Palestinians,” Yosef said." I don't have much love for Friedman but does Israel have too much good press that it can afford the hallucination of a 90 year old "gaon" to be published throughout the world and be denounced by the press and the spokesman of the White House? Right before the start of the negotiations? I am also surprised that you attribute to Peretz anti Sephardi sentiments. How did you arrive at this conclusion? Particularly the abnoxious "frenk parekh"? Let me inform you that those sentiments in Israel are a thing of the past. There are still some "Neanderthals" but they small in numbers and statements like yours only bring them to the front of the discussion.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
September 1, 2010 at 6:46am
"Let me inform you that those sentiments in Israel are a thing of the past. " I tend to agree but Marty is not an Israeli and from what I have gathered from his attitudes to Israel, he still carries a vision of the state which is more suited to the fifties and sixties. It is an attitude I have often encountered in some Jewish persons who are over a certain age and do not feel constrained by political correctness to speak their minds. The difference you speak of in Israel would be more accurately described as that while in the past Sepharidi and Mizrahi Jews used to mind terribly this social bigotry, today they don't give a hoot. Please don't try to sell me your view that "those sentiments in Israel are a thing of the past". We still live in the desert generation, if you know what I mean. It will take at least another generation or two for this silliness to disappear. But in my comment I described the ugliness of the thing as it was in the past which is where Marty lives, as far as his fantasies about Israel go. It's too bad you cannot accept that these things happened and such slurs were made on a daily basis, including once or twice ("jokingly") to yours truly (both my parents are Sephardis from Turkey). I remember a teacher who thought she was paying me a compliment when she said I "didn't look Sephardi". Anyway all this belongs to another conversation. I stand by my sharp criticism of Marty's incontinent attack on Yoseph by comparing him to Taliban. In his last post on the subject he seems to have grasped the ever so slight difference: "Ovadia Curses; In the Meantime Hamas Shoots Four Israelis Dead, One Pregnant ". Exactly.
- noga1
September 1, 2010 at 7:34am
"Ovadia Curses; In the Meantime Hamas Shoots Four Israelis Dead, One Pregnant " The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization. ~Sigmund Freud
- noga1
September 1, 2010 at 7:39am
"We still live in the desert generation, if you know what I mean." No Noga, I don't know what you mean. What you described is not the Israel I know. To tell you that bigotry disappeared completely would be incorrect, but I can tell you that it is rare and and it is looked upon with disdain. Regarding Ovadia Yosef outburst, as I said in another post this is not the first and neither it is the worst. There were others. Much worse. Directed against Jews, directed against his enemies, real and imagined and directed against the secular public. I am not going to belabor the point. This is not a personal attack on Yosef, this is a criticism of his views and his conduct.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
September 1, 2010 at 3:02pm
Israeli society is still beset with many bigotries. They are nothing as vicious as those that happen in Europe, or the US or anywhere else, but it's no use pretending that they do not exist or are on the wane. It's strange that you are not familiar with the "desert generation" phrase. I thought you were an Israeli.
- noga1
September 1, 2010 at 3:35pm
I am familiar with the expression. I just don't agree with you that "we still live in the desert generation". Actually, I don't believe this expression was ever applicable to modern Israel. I have actually never heard it used in Israel to explain any social ills or injustices. That Israeli society is still besets with many bigotries is true. It's also true that they are on the wane. However, to claim that those bigotries somehow drive the criticism of Yosef is false.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
September 2, 2010 at 7:36am
"to claim that those bigotries somehow drive the criticism of Yosef is false." That's not what I claimed. Israelis who criticize Yoseph do so in the correct manner because they are actually free from the baggage that Marty is still carrying with him from the Israeli conventions of the fifties and the sixties. But Marty's easy and rapid slide into grotesque hyperbole (comparing Yoseph to Taliban) indicates a deep and contemptuous bias against the man for reasons that have nothing to do with whatever he actually states. You must go back and read my comments more carefully. Israeli bigotries are not waning. They shift and change but they are still there. And nobody is free of them, unfortunately human nature is such that people need to denigrate others, even those who just two decades ago were themselves the butt of such bigotries. But Israeli society is much more alert and in the right direction than other societies perhaps because of the smallness of this nation and the basic decency of the people. Any act of bigotry is met with general outcry and makes it to the media in no time.
- noga1
September 2, 2010 at 7:54am
Noga, I read your statements very carefully. Why do you think that Peretz is still carrying baggage from the fifties or sixties? Why do you think he ever had this baggage? On what do you base this assumption? As I said, Israeli society is not completely free from bigotry, however, I see a great change from let say twenty years ago. I think that the movement against the deportation of illegal worker's children is a good example of this. Are there still areas that need change? I am sure of it, like for example the bigotry against the Ethiopian community. But this too is changing.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
September 2, 2010 at 8:12am
I guess we'll just have to accept that I see things differently from you. In the last twenty years I encountered two glaring examples of the same denial you exhibit here. One was when I read a TLS review of AB Yehoshua's novel "A Journey to the end of the millennium" written by an Israeli academic whose mainly thrust was that Yehoshua is trying to stir up scandalous sentiments between Ashkenazi and Sephardi communities. And the other, earlier example pertains to a four part documentary one filmmaker made in which he told the story of his Moroccan parents and the kind of discrimination and stigmatization they had to endure upon their arrival and many years after. He was attacked by the "elite" in the media as a crybaby who shouldn't have attempted this tiny attempt at creating a record of the bigotry and how very real the results of such discrimination were. The fact that Mizrahi, Moroccan, and Sephardi constituencies are now relatively flourishing (the very existence of Shas is proof that not all is well in the land of milk and honey for the next generations) does not change the basic instinct in Israeli society that manifests itself in the odd habit that the second question that people ask after learning your name is what ethnicity you are from. As for Peretz, as I said, his contemptuous degradation of Yoseph to Taliban level primitivism suggests that he is not responding to facts and records but to something deeper in himself. As I said, it is familiar to me from encountering other Jews his age who are less savvy than him and do not even try to conceal their prejudices in this regard. Anyway I'm truly fed up with this discussion. It reminds me of the sophomoric class conversations we used to have in highschool in which the majority were Ashkenazi students expressing with all the smugness and self-righteousness of the infallible that there was no such thing as inter-ethnic bigotry in Israel. There was one student of Yemenite origin who was in particular vehement in her claims of bigotry. Her name, funny enough, was Shulamit Aloni but no relation to the famous Shula :) Strange that I should remember this detail after all these years.
- noga1
September 2, 2010 at 9:17am
BTW, perhaps I should add that I consider these bigotries to be normal within any society and the society of Jews is no different to any other society in the world. Wasn't it the poet Bialik whom I mentioned earlier who wrote something glorifying the very idea of the "Hebrew prostitute"? Israel couldn't be a normal society without all these negative features which are part and parcel of any society. The achievement of Israeli society is that it acts like a self-cleaning over. And Israelis can be scolded into feeling ashamed by their own moral failures. The comedy scene is full of these issues and a good thing too. No doubt you are familiar with this old classic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alp9scMfmjA
- noga1
September 2, 2010 at 10:44am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alp9scMfmjA
- noga1
September 2, 2010 at 10:45am
"A Journey to the end of the millennium" I think this is Yehoshua's best work. Fabulous book. I read it in Hebrew and English and the translation does not do it justice. I understand and respect your feelings although I think that you are a bit harsh regarding Peretz and I don't think that Yosef deserves your sympathy and respect.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
September 2, 2010 at 6:23pm
By the way, I've never seen this one but I love it. Thanks.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
September 2, 2010 at 6:36pm
"I don't think that Yosef deserves your sympathy and respect." He has my respect but not my sympathy. Just like Imam Rauf has my respect but not my sympathy. Respect and suspect, as the saying goes. Marty has my sympathy, 99% of it but sometimes I cannot respect him. I expect more thoughtfulness and less impetuousness from him. When he gets that itch to vent that's when he ought to pause a second and think about what it is he really wants to say. If he compares someone like Yosef to the Taliban then Taliban cannot be so bad. Taliban may be irrational and eccentric but basically harmless. That's what he is implying. http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2010/09/and-everywhere-ceremony-of-innocence-is.html
- noga1
September 2, 2010 at 7:13pm
You do know who Uri Zohar was and is, Makover?
- noga1
September 2, 2010 at 7:15pm
Of course, Uri Zohar (now Rabbi Uri Zohar) together with Arik Einstein were the bad boys of the early Tel Aviv Boheme. And some say that Uri Zohar betrayed that libertarian ethos (some say libertine) by Hazara Btshuva or return to orthodoxy. Before my military service I worked briefly as an office boy for another member of this Boheme circle, the architect Benyamin Idelson. But Arik Einstein, faithful to his old image is still there sowing mischief as he well should.
- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD
September 3, 2010 at 7:09am
It was a sad day for Israel's comedy scene when Uri Zohar abdicated his comedic duties in order to serve God. I often wonder how he teaches Torah. If he is as humorous as he was. I considered him a genius in comedy making. Unparalleled.
- noga1
September 3, 2010 at 7:34am
Just a quick post script comment: a) While makover and others were (rightfully) praising the greater ethnic tolerance found in Israel these days, it's interesting and telling that anti-Hareidi bigotry is still considered by the "enlightened" to be socially acceptable (again, neither I nor my family are Hareidi, and I do have my differences with them and their approach to life). b) Uri Zohar probably uses his humor to teach Torah. Those characteristics never leave a person, they are simply redirected. Indeed he had a guest & talk show on TV a few years ago (I only saw parts of a few times) in which he was using his humor & subtly mixed in his religious philosophy. c) Uri Zohar & Erik Einstein are מחותנים - in laws. I believe Zohar's son married Einstein's daughter (or maybe it was the other way around). In all events I understand that Einstein's child became ultra-orthodox which subsequently enabled the match. hg
- ginzy
September 5, 2010 at 7:17am