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Go Home "Goyim Were Born Only To Serve Us": The Moral Wisdom Of...

THE SPINE OCTOBER 19, 2010

"Goyim Were Born Only To Serve Us": The Moral Wisdom Of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef

BY MARTIN PERETZ

I wrote about “Ovadia,” the beloved head of the Council of Torah Sages and the leading Sephardi “adjudicator” (which is what the Jerusalem Post called him yesterday), about a month ago and in four different posts: here, here, here, and here. This was right around the time when I offended so many people with my comments on the heartlessness of jihadist Islam. It should also be very alarming that  Shas, the political party of the Jews from the Arab, Persian and Mediterranean orbits, should get its counsel from this heartless bigot. Shas, after all, is a crucial part of the present Israeli coalition.

It is a numerically flimsy coalition, and therefore the prime minister often has to bend to the wishes of either Rabbi Ovadia or his foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, who is a different kind of thug. (I’ve also written about this hoodlum before.) Since I believe that Bibi Netanyahu is genuine in his pursuit of peace—which I am convinced the various Palestinians, except for Salam Fayyad, are not- I would prefer a coalition with Kadima which is only marginally more trustworthy that the prime minister’s present partners.

Anyway, I’ve wandered from the sainted rabbi whose last piece of wisdom (here quoted and characterized by Jonah Mandel in the Post) is this:

“Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel,” he said in his weekly Saturday night sermon on the laws regarding the actions non-Jews are permitted to perform on Shabbat.

According to Yosef, the lives of non-Jews in Israel are safeguarded by divinity, to prevent losses to Jews.

“In Israel, death has no dominion over them... With gentiles, it will be like any person – they need to die, but [God] will give them longevity. Why? Imagine that one’s donkey would die, they’d lose their money.

This is his servant... That’s why he gets a long life, to work well for this Jew,” Yosef said.

Of course, there is a difference between these extremist Jews and jihadist fanatics. One doesn’t kill: the other does. 

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89 comments

Oh, good grief: "I offended so many people with my comments on the heartlessness of jihadist Islam" Almost no one was offended because they thought you were talking about jihadist Islam. You didn't use the "jihadist" qualifier and most people who were offended were offended because you definitely gave the impression you were talking about Islam, not about a particular subbranch. This interesting reframe is yet another example of the more general problem, which your various apologies don't really acknowledge or address: you treat "jihadist" or "radical" or "violent" Islam as completely interchangeable with "Islam" such that it's easy for you to misremember saying one when you said the other. I'd assume this was completely subconscious and non-instrumental, except for the fact that the generalizations about Islam usually come before you get into trouble and your revision of "Islam" as "jihadist Islam" comes after the fact when it would be inconvenient for you to have said what you actually said.

- miceelf

October 19, 2010 at 12:07pm

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I knew that he was talking about Jihadist Islam, why didin't you miceelf? Was it because you wanted to dismiss his criticism of Islam and couldn't accept anything he said as true? Is this story about Islam or radical Islam? “Judge Raps MAS-Tied School's Conduct” http://www.investigativeproject.org/blog/2010/10/judge-raps-mas-tied-school-conduct “The Tarek ibn Ziyad Academy (TiZA) in Minnesota has been facing a civil lawsuit brought by the American Civil Liberties Union alleging it violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment by using taxpayer money to promote religion. Minneapolis Star-Tribune columnist Katherine Kersten reported on Saturday that the state-funded school has engaged in legal tactics that "have gone far beyond the usual rough-and-tumble of lawyers in our adversary system." Those tactics include a defamation counter-suit against the ACLU citing an official's statement that TiZA was "a theocratic school." The defamation suit was dismissed by the court. Another chief tactic has been attempted intimidation of potential witnesses. In January, the ACLU filed affidavits by a parent of a former TiZA student and a former TiZA staffer who claimed threats of violence were made against them related to the litigation. The ACLU also asked the court to quash a TiZA secrecy clause in its staff handbook that the ACLU claimed intimidated potential witnesses from testifying against the school. The court ordered the secrecy clause could not be enforced against any TiZA staff in connection with the ongoing suit. TiZA is run by officials with the Minnesota chapter of the Muslim American Society (MAS). In her affidavit, former office assistant Janeha Edwards said there is no distinction between the TiZA school and MAS. "Their mail comes to the same mailbox, their faxes come through the same fax machine, and their telephone calls come to the same phone. MAS runs a daycare in the school building," she wrote. "MAS files and TIZA files are intermingled." In an October 1 court order favoring the ACLU, U.S. District Court Judge Donovan Frank questioned why the public charter school is trying to silence its employees: "In addition, it should go without saying that, apart from the employment contract issue, intimidation and threats will not sit well with a fact-finder such as a jury. From what the Court can discern on the record currently before it, TiZA's behavior during the discovery process thus far in the case has not been consistent with a good faith search for the truth." Though not a party to the lawsuit, MAS has tried to get the ACLU lawyers replaced, prompting Kersten to wonder whether the lawyers have information that could take the issue into deeper and more troubling areas. "Every time we read about this lawsuit," she concludes, "we have to pinch ourselves and say: We're talking about a public, taxpayer-funded school."”

- jdyer

October 19, 2010 at 12:52pm

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jdyer, I was far from the greatest of Peretz's problems. And not everyone on your side was so clear that he was talking about a subset of Islam. indeed, even pointing out that Islam and jihadist islam aren't the same reliably invites some sort of suggestion from you and your merry band that one is a closet jihadist or apologist for beheadings and the like. Reason #43 why it's a waste of time to attempt to converse with you on such matters.

- miceelf

October 19, 2010 at 1:18pm

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It you who can't see the difference between JIhadist Islam and a non Jihadists Islam.

- jdyer

October 19, 2010 at 1:45pm

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This is why jackson used to be referred to here as Peretz's mini-me or as a pseudonym for Peretz himself. The contemptible is reimagined as necessary to rescue Perets from his own excesses. Jewish extremists have been murderers in the past when they thought it would serve their interests. Right now there is nothing they can hope to achieve by murder. If that should change, I wouldn't be so sanguine. One wonders based on the example of Shas whether Moslem as opposed to Christian or J ewish inspired mayhem is not more a matter of different circumstances than a greater sense of decency.

- roidubouloi

October 19, 2010 at 1:48pm

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"This is why jackson used to be referred to here as Peretz's mini-me " When? Where? By whom? Aren't you getting a little confused?

- noga1

October 19, 2010 at 3:11pm

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Roi: "a greater sense of decency" Just remember, readers, that roi uses words in the way the gods did, according to Homer. "All human words are known to the gods but have for them entirely other meanings alongside our meanings. They flip the switch at will. " so when he uses such a big word like "decency" one should not jusp to the conclusion that roi means it in the way regular users of language do.

- noga1

October 19, 2010 at 3:15pm

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No, I'm not confused. You just haven't been here long enough to recall. As for your little, exegesis on the meaning of meaning, horseshit. As is the norm, you having nothing whatever to say to the point. In your desperation to say something, you lapse into solipsistic meandering. Same old, same old, noga. An empty, addled mind.

- roidubouloi

October 19, 2010 at 5:39pm

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malahat: I would have liked to see what he said in Hebrew. Not that I don't trust Marty's translations. Nevertheless... "Perhaps this explains why Americans are going homeless, jobless and hungry but Obama just awarded an Israeli company to develop solar energy for America. Pity the goyims in California are too incompetent to make them." http://www.grandestrategy.com/2010/10/jewish-rabbi-yosef-tells-non-jews.html

- noga1

October 19, 2010 at 5:51pm

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Found it: "על פי הרב, בימות המשיח היהודים יזכו לחיי נצח והגויים יאריכו ימים מסיבה תועלתית בלבד. "בישראל לא ישלוט בהם מלאך המוות לעולם ואצל הגויים זה יהיה כמו כל אדם - צריך למות, אבל ייתן להם אריכות ימים. למה זה? תחשוב, חמור שלו אם ימות - יפסיד את הכסף. זה משרת שלו - גם כן יפסיד אותו. לכן נותנים לו אריכות ימים שיעבוד טוב אצל היהודי הזה". Here is my translation: According to the rabbi, after the Messiah arrives, Jews will gain immortality and the other nations will live forever for utilitarian purposes only. "The angel of death will have no authority over the Jews. But those who are not Jews will be as any mortal, and will continue to die. But God will give them longevity. Why? Think about it: a donkey is a man's servant, made to serve man. If he dies, the man loses. Therefore God gives the beast longevity, so that he can continue to live and serve his master..." As you can see, Ovadia was speaking of the day after the end of the world, not in any way reflecting what happens on earth, in this life, before the messiah arrives. The gentiles are offended? Who, Christians whose end of time signifies the total extermination of the Jews? Muslims? Whose end of time describes: “The Messenger of Allah said: ‘Judgment Day will not come unless Muslims fight the Jews. Muslims will defeat and kill Jews. The Jew will hide behind the stone and the tree, and the stone or tree will say: ‘Oh Muslim, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him! Only the Gharqad tree will not say because it is the tree of Jews.” _______________ If anyone is afraid of the Jewish end of time, here is some consolation, from Maimonides, an authority greater than Obadia Yosef's: Jews are obligated to believe with a full heart in the coming of the Messiah, though he may tarry...

- noga1

October 19, 2010 at 6:06pm

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It took me all of 15 minutes to find the relevant quote and translate it . It is too much to expect from Marty similar circumspection.

- noga1

October 19, 2010 at 6:09pm

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Btw, it's not a good sign that Yosef feels the need to provide comfort to his constituencies by speaking about the coming of the Messiah. Excessive longing for the Messiah, historically, marked times of great distress for the Jewish people. If anyone finds anything to worry about this incident, it is this aspect of it that we ought to pay attention to. You might want also to consider that this sermon comes at the end of the week in which Ahmadinejad was visiting Israel's Northern border and spewing his usual threats of exterminating "Zionism".

- noga1

October 19, 2010 at 6:49pm

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What's the problem? Clearly, I was born to serve Noga.

- ironyroad

October 19, 2010 at 7:17pm

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malahat: I don't think you were paying attention to what I was saying. I sent an email to the ADL urging them to at least correct the translation of the words, which clearly speaks about a religious concept about the end of time. If you want to join in this virtual lynching, fine. But know that you are doing this in the service of your own causes and not for anything that was actually said. Jewish religion provides the same sort of services that any other religion does and that includes a vision of the end of times. And that's what he was talking about. Israeli society is not made up of atheistic Jews reading the Talmud for its academic value. Many Jews actually study the Talmud by way of getting a meaning for their existence. Are you embarrassed? Why? Because Jews are like all other people with religion and mythical consolations?

- noga1

October 19, 2010 at 7:23pm

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"Clearly, I was born to serve Noga." Yes that will be the day.

- noga1

October 19, 2010 at 7:24pm

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"Calling non-Jews "donkeys" made only to serve Jews is hate speech" Well, he didn't call them donkeys. He gave an example to explain why they will be given longevity (a kindness not offered by either Islam or Christianity, serving or not). And as ironyroad repeatedly drummed into our minds, analogies do not indicates equivalence. Except, maybe, when a Jewish rabbi makes it, then it becomes inscribed in stone for perpetual denigration. I wonder why this is even news.

- noga1

October 19, 2010 at 7:29pm

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", but to me the eschatological context doesn't matter." But you can study an eschatological discourse without calling it "hate speech", can't you? Isn't this what we do in academia, study religion in the context of history, sociology, literature, and what not? If this were hate speech, I wonder why Muslims are allowed to preach and learn that Jews are the descendants of apes and pigs and that in the end of time they will all be slaughtered. Without the eschatological context, isn't it simple, straightforward hate speech, inciting to murder and should be prosecuted? Judaism is a religion. And has provided the necessary myths and narratives by which to console Jews in times of hardship.

- noga1

October 19, 2010 at 7:40pm

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"Well, this isn't a myth or a narrative that I've ever heard of, but rather the new rantings of an old man." Are you an expert on the Talmud? Do you think you know everything that is written in it, all the discussions, the arguments, the speculations, the tales concocted by the rabbis to explain, to encourage, to teach? I got a bit of a surprise when I was taking courses for my PhD in Judaic Studies. I also didn't know any such tales until I read about it. Jews were not living in a vacuum and the stories they told themselves reflected what the world around them was saying about them. And they reacted by making up tales of their own, in which they were the winners.

- noga1

October 19, 2010 at 7:50pm

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roidubouloi "Jewish extremists have been murderers in the past when they thought it would serve their interests." Right, that's why they killed millions of Germans because it was in their interest. "Right now there is nothing they can hope to achieve by murder." How the fuck do you know, Roidboy? Are a member of their cells, do you listen in on their debates? You are a fucking ignorant bore.

- jdyer

October 19, 2010 at 8:13pm

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ONe would never know by reading the moronic Roidboy, but this is a thread about the theocrat and all around bigot Ovadia Yosef.

- jdyer

October 19, 2010 at 8:14pm

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noga1, there is no need to defend Ovadia. The man has outrageous things even about Jews whose ideas he doesn't share. And what to make of his belief that the Jews murdered by the Germans during WW2 had sinned in a previous life? Is that how he comforts himself?

- jdyer

October 19, 2010 at 8:24pm

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roidubouloi “This is why jackson used to be referred to here as Peretz's mini-me or as a pseudonym for Peretz himself.” This is what someone said about roidboy and Obama. He called him as “Obama’s minime,” and Roidboy being roidubouloi he just had to repeat it pretending that it was said about someone else.

- jdyer

October 19, 2010 at 8:53pm

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I'm not defending him, jackson. Just setting the record straight. Surely you would like to know exactly what he said? Or it doesn't matter because you find him too preposterous and religiously-minded to be your co-religionist and are embarrassed that he should actually have an inconvenient version of Judaism? For me it doesn't matter that he believes in the messiah and that he says Jews will be masters and live forever, at the end of times. As long as he does not incite to harm and damage real people, who live today and not when the messiah arrives... And that he doesn't. Really, what's the big deal? ESPECIALLY when you compare it with the nightmarish millenarian fantasies of other religions. Did you get out of shape when Anne Coulter, a modern, educated woman, said that Christians were perfected Jews? I did not.

- noga1

October 19, 2010 at 9:04pm

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noga1 "Surely you would like to know exactly what he said? Or it doesn't matter because you find him too preposterous and religiously-minded to be your co-religionist and are embarrassed that he should actually have an inconvenient version of Judaism?" I am not embarrassed by any Jew, Noga. If I don’t like someone (an individual) Jew or not I tell him or her so. I am not shy about it. I have also been living around frumkers most of my life and have heard it all. I don’t like Ovadia. I don’t like him what he said about those Jews who were murdered in the Shoah. Anyone capable of saying what he said is capable of saying anything. No, I don’t care about the specifics. The same is true about Christopher Hitchens. His comments about Elie Wiesel turned me off to him for ever. In a way they are both alike. They both set themselves up as moral authorities. One speaks in the name of "God" the other in the name of "Truth." Each confuses his ego with some sort of moral authority.

- jdyer

October 19, 2010 at 9:15pm

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I am not a great fan of Rav Yosef, but why waste time on halucination of an old, primitive fart?

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

October 20, 2010 at 7:31am

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"but why waste time on halucination of an old, primitive fart?" I asked the same question, though in far less colourful language. here is one possibility why: "While by now I’m used to Frank catching me off guard with precipitous pronouncements about how I should better my behavior and polish up my priorities, he staggered me when I Skyped him last week to wish him a sheyne Shmini Atzeret. “I’m worried about your well-being,” Frank fussed. “And I’ve come to a conclusion.” “What’s that, Frank?” “You must emigrate from Israel,” he said seriously, “and reestablish residence in the Western world’s most progressive polity, the United Cerulean States of America.” “But why, Frank?” I gasped. “Because the Jewish state has jettisoned the very values on which higher humanity is based. It has become a bastion of backwardness, a fen of fundamentalism, and a welter of warmongering know-nothing nationalism. To fret is fruitless. Every right-thinking representative of fair-mindedness and freedom should dial Delta and purchase passage to the land of liberty.” “Please, Frank,” I pleaded plaintively. “I mean, I’ve lived here for 32 years. I’ve raised my family here. I have friends, a career. I don’t want to leave. And anyway, it’s not so bad as all that.” http://southjerusalem.com/2010/10/for-whom-the-pole-knells-necessary-stories-column-from-the-jerusalem-report/

- noga1

October 20, 2010 at 7:54am

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well-stated, Malahat, if not well-spelled. ;-)

- miceelf

October 20, 2010 at 9:50am

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Eeew. Why did I read this discussion? I need to go wash my hands now. Never click on the Spine...Never click on the Spine...Never click on the Spine... O.K. Maybe I'll remember now.

- agentzero

October 20, 2010 at 11:57am

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Maybe a good way to oppose Rav Yosef and the other foolish, parasitic Haredim is to support Hiddush, an Israeli group fighting for religious freedom and equality, at www.hiddush.org.

- amidut

October 20, 2010 at 12:10pm

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Sorry, I messed up the link. The Hiddush URL is simple.

- amidut

October 20, 2010 at 12:13pm

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noga, thanks for your translation. The only reason Rabbi O Yosef's sermons in a shul are news is because of his political party affiliation, Shas. If religious sermons were ALL so newsworthy, the world would have destroyed itself via religious wars a long time ago.

- K2K

October 20, 2010 at 2:55pm

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Sorry Noga: I should't have said that. By the way, is Frank roi?

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

October 20, 2010 at 3:32pm

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agentzero: And wash your mouth with soap as mama told you.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

October 20, 2010 at 3:33pm

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"is Frank roi?" I think Frank is an imaginary friend, though I'm not willing to vouch for my speculation. In that respect he might be roi, if you see what I mean, except that the imagination that produced him [Frank] is not his but somebody else's.

- noga1

October 20, 2010 at 5:16pm

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Since when has the term "Goyim" been associated with traditional Sephardic? THought it was Yiddish based. If these are the types of prople who are controlling and adding to the settlement building apparatus then Obama is very much in his right to curtail settlements in West Bank in territory that does not belong to Israelis.

- NR027810

October 20, 2010 at 5:29pm

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"If these are the types of prople who are controlling and adding to the settlement building apparatus then Obama is very much in his right to curtail settlements in West Bank in territory that does not belong to Israelis." And why should it be an of Obama's concerns the kinds of myths some rabbi is telling his flocks about the status of Jews at the end of times? Or are you afraid that merely fantasizing about the end of times and the messiah is off-bounds for Jews? THEY do not deserve such consolations that are far from even coming close to the violent genocidal fantasies that other religions hold? To follow your logic, Obama should absolutely have nothing to do with Ppalestinians because they educate themselves to believe things like this: "The PA TV host gave cash prizes to those who defined Israeli cities such as Jaffa, Haifa, Acre, Ramle, and others as Palestinian cities and to those who disregarded the existence of Israel as a neighboring country. Referring to Israel, the host said, "All of Palestine is occupied." http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=3359 THEY are not talking about an end of times hallucination. THEY are talking a foreseeable future.

- noga1

October 20, 2010 at 6:13pm

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From Nizo's blog: "Father: Today you will name all of the Arab capitals. Up to 2:41, the child is asked to name all the Arab capitals, including Palestine to which he responds with "Al-Quds". At 2:41 the father asks the child to name the capital of Israel, to which the child raises his hand in the air and responds: "There's no Israel. There is Palestine" http://nizos.blogspot.com/2010/06/what-is-israels-capital-city.html _______ Nothing to see here. Just move along...

- noga1

October 20, 2010 at 6:21pm

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NR027810: "THought it was Yiddish based" You thought wrong. Who do you mean by "types of people" , the Sephardim, the Ashkenazim, the Israelis, the Jews, the settlers, the Arabs, the squatters, the illegal aliens? Who? Besides Obama has a right to "curtail settlements" in US not in Israel or West Bank. The last time I checked he was a president of the United States and not a president of Israel or Palestine.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

October 20, 2010 at 6:21pm

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Expostulation: How odd of God To choose the Jews. And reply: Not so odd of God To choose the Jews. Goyim annoy 'im

- noga1

October 20, 2010 at 6:26pm

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Chutzpah in the Age of Obama "...Obama is very much in his right to curtail settlements in West Bank in territory that does not belong to Israelis." ok, what makover wrote :) NR027810 must think Israel is an American protectorate, like Guam, but full of Jews who belong anywhere but Israel. You really should not read the comments attached to Bronner's NYT article about Palestinian possible declaration of statehood - one recommended relocating the Jews to Hawaii so there would be no neighbors shooting missiles. I believe the Hawaiians would have to relocate somewhere else... I am ready for Armegeddon - bring it on!

- K2K

October 21, 2010 at 1:29am

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"For me it doesn't matter that he believes in the messiah and that he says Jews will be masters and live forever, at the end of times. As long as he does not incite to harm and damage real people, who live today and not when the messiah arrives... And that he doesn't. Really, what's the big deal? ESPECIALLY when you compare it with the nightmarish millenarian fantasies of other religions." In reality (noga's nemesis), she objects to all sorts of expression that demeans Jews, well short of incitement to violence, and is fond to injecting some obnoxious quote from some anti-Semite in the discussion whenever she doesn't like an argument about bad Israeli behavior for which she has no response. No, it is simply the case that noga is a terrible hypocrite, in this as in so many manners. Yours, Frank

- roidubouloi

October 21, 2010 at 4:52am

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oops, "as in so many matters"

- roidubouloi

October 21, 2010 at 4:53am

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I have a problem with reality, roi? It is you who gets into convulsions because some old rabbi was describing a Jewish fantasy about the end of times, after the messiah arrives. Now who has a problem with reality? Clearly what Muslims say about Jews here and now has no bearing on how real people who live in the real world react to Jewish presence. It's all water under the bridge. But what Yosef says, now that deserves prime time coverage and condemnation. Why? Because Jews must know by now that they are not allowed to dream of being masters. What does it take to beat into them this simple truth? Two thousands years of persecution and systematic annihilation and still they have these dreams. Something must be done about it. Why can't they shut up once and for all? Don't they get it? They have no oil and no 1.4 billion people behind them. Such chutzpa, to have these post-apocalyptic fantasies when they are so small and insignificant. Who do they think they are?

- noga1

October 21, 2010 at 7:17am

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BTW, this thread ought to be read in tandem with Gitlin's article about chosenness. He does seem to be very ill at ease with the idea of chosenness, as if Jews are unique in that regard, as if Chsritians do not consider themselves God's true chosen people and Muslims are not absolutely sure that they have Allah's fully stamped and authorized receipt that that they are God's only chosen. The great Israeli performer Yossi Banai (now sadly gone from this world) puts it in perspective: Sfirat Mlai (Taking stock) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtXAMknfERo&feature=player_embedded#at=32 One state, two seas, one lake and malaria* too. One perfect circle of a sun One wise people full of chosenness One big headache and three pills and six days and seven nights One God our own God who presides over the heavens and the earth One large immigration wave and two thousand years of exile two annual vacations and one free weekend One day of victory one day of defeat one day of security and thirty days of sick leave Trumpeldor in the Galilee and one concierto for flute and half a dozen retired generals One ancient people two ministers without portfolio the first is sad, the second - funny One difficult childhood years of attrition and anyone who wants independence, be my guest Five wars one division and one soldier playing backgammon Five tired soldiers sleeping in a bunker and seventy kids are laughing in the shelter three Zion prisoners are freed and one convict for life in his sixth month The child's day, the flower's day and just a day and still Hill 24 is not responding One state, two seas, one lake, one tear and ... malaria, too. _____ malaria is an awkward translation for the word "kadachat" in Hebrew that actually means high fever but in slang is supposed to convey a dismal condition, as at the time of the first pioneers to Israel who optimistically worked in draining the swamps and died like flies from malaria.

- noga1

October 21, 2010 at 7:59am

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The reality that embarrasses so is not that some old Jewish religious nut has end-of-days fantasies. It is that he is a senior counselor (or some such) to a political party that is a powerful member of the governing coalition of the State of Israel. It goes without saying that the Israeli hypocrites who were so exercised by things said by Obama's minister, and demanded that Obama denounce them which he did, are non-plussed that a Jewish analog should actually have a political presence in the government. What would be and should be discreditable in any other democratic society, that the prime minister makes common cause with such as Ovadia Josef, is perfectly acceptable to Israelis. This is the reality that the hypocritical noga wants to shove under the rug with her purported blithe indifference to Ovadia Josef's rantings. Neither reality nor principle motivates such as she. Rather, what we observe is pure self-aggrandizement with whatever tissue-thin excuses will serve at the moment. If that requires self-contradiction tomorrow or the day after, so what? Everyone does it, why not the Jews? If the Moslems engage in some horrible behavior, why not the Jews? Such an aspiration. If there is discreditable behavior on the part of Jews or Israel, the invariable response from noga is that someone else, somewhere, is doing something worse. This is but the latest edition.

- roidubouloi

October 21, 2010 at 10:00am

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Rav Yosef is the "Jewish analog" to Reverend Wright? Fantasizing about the end of times in which Jews are masters served by other people (who are those people?) is the same as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright_controversy#.22The_Day_of_Jerusalem.27s_Fall.22 "God damn America" and honoring that Hitler admirer, Farrakhan. Sure. I think if anyone is suffering from serious distortions in perception of reality it is still you, roi. You can't make ME the subject here. I'm the one who relayed what actually Yosef said, which should have made it clear to anyone with a modicum of good faith that Marty's report about it was based on misinformation, wrong and probably self-serving. You, on the other hand, are intent on demonizing both him and his constituency. There is a vast difference between criticizing this man's words and drawing an analogy between him and a consummate antisemite with 20-year long influence upon the most powerful leader in the world. Only a person suffering from severe paranoia and hatred would create that analogy. Calling you a schmuck would be an insult to all bona fide schmucks around here.

- noga1

October 21, 2010 at 11:24am

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roi: Yosef is not "a senior counselor (or some such)" to any political party. He used to be (some time ago the Chief Sephardi rabbi) and because of this he is still revered by some. He is in his eighties and he is talking about end of time prophecies. Those are clearly ranting of old man. "the prime minister makes common cause with such as Ovadia Josef, is perfectly acceptable to Israelis." roi: Let go of this refer! What are you smoking yingale? "hypocritical noga"? Is she hypocritical because she does not believe in the Sun of Nations, your Lord Obama?

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

October 21, 2010 at 11:26am

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"Calling you a schmuck would be an insult to all bona fide schmucks around here." Noga, you wan't get any disagreement here.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

October 21, 2010 at 11:28am

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makover: It's useless. It's like trying to persuade a deaf person to enjoy Rodrigo's Concierto d'Aranjuez". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_personality_disorder#WHO

- noga1

October 21, 2010 at 11:36am

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And "hypocrites" is way too kind to the bunch of you. From wikipedia: "Rabbi Ovadia Yosef (Hebrew: עובדיה יוסף‎) (born September 23, 1920) is a Mizrahi Haredi rabbi, Talmudic scholar, and recognized halakhic authority. Born in Baghdad, Iraq,[1] he is the former Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel.[2] Yosef is also the current spiritual leader of the Shas political party in the Israeli Knesset." The relevant distinction is not whether what Jeremiah Wright believes is more or less obnoxious than what Yosef believes. Wright has no position and has never had any position, spiritual or otherwise, in the Democratic party, and Obama made clear that he does not share the views of Wright. The party of which Yosef is the "spiritual leader" is a member of the governing coalition of the State of Israel. If Wright had any formal tie to the Democratic party whatsover, you pathetic bunch of frauds would be screaming bloody murder. Do you demand that Netanyahu publicly separate himself from the rantings of Yosef? Of course you don't. Do you insist that a party "spiritually led" by someone declaring such views does not belong in government? Of course you don't. In Yosef's case, we are all just to accept these as the ravings of a nut even though he has a formal relationship to a governing party that Wright never had. It would be bad enough if the lot of you were the worst that Israel has to offer. Sadly, that is not the case. You are propagandists and opportunists of the worst sort. The good news is that just about the only ones you can persuade with your pile of verbal garbage piled ever higher are jdyer and K2K. Go home to Israel and engage in your political smear campaigns there, why don't you. We have enough of our own home-grown bigots, nuts, and Rovian liars here in America. We don't need any imports.

- roidubouloi

October 21, 2010 at 12:12pm

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"Yosef is also the current spiritual leader of the Shas political party in the Israeli Knesset." Yes, and the current spiritual leader of the Shas political party in the Israeli Knesset ministered to his flocks by telling them not to lose heart in the face of evil and to remember that "the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." (Matt 20:16) :)

- noga1

October 21, 2010 at 12:38pm

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"According to the rabbi, after the Messiah arrives, Jews will gain immortality and the other nations will live forever for utilitarian purposes only. 'The angel of death will have no authority over the Jews. But those who are not Jews will be as any mortal, and will continue to die. But God will give them longevity. Why? Think about it: a donkey is a man's servant, made to serve man. If he dies, the man loses. Therefore God gives the beast longevity, so that he can continue to live and serve his master...'" Indeed, the last shall be first and the first shall be donkeys. The only thing that distinguishes you from the people you claim to loathe is opportunity. It seems you would be happy to stand in their shoes. How do you manage not to be embarrassed at your own image any time you pass a mirror? :)

- roidubouloi

October 21, 2010 at 12:44pm

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"How do you manage not to be embarrassed at your own image any time you pass a mirror?" I have nothing to be embarrassed about, roi. I am not a rhinoceros, like you. And just for the sake of accuracy, Yosef did not say "the first shall be donkeys." Read it again and maybe you'll manage to get that it was a metaphor. Clearly you need to insert these distortions and lies about what he actually did say. Without the lies, how to justify your bile and loathing of all Israelis? ("it would be bad enough if the lot of you were the worst that Israel has to offer. Sadly, that is not the case.") But what do you call a man who pleads so passionately for a case based on lies and deliberate misinformation?

- noga1

October 21, 2010 at 1:27pm

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Noga: "as if Christians do not consider themselves God's true chosen people . . ." Actually, thinking back to my Catholic school (imagine ironyroad at age 10! "I know!" as Craig Ferguson says) I do recall quite clearly learning that the Jews were the "Chosen People." It seems to depend somewhat on how "chosen" is used. From one quite standard perspective, Christianity, being the new dispensation, is a universal church, and therefore does not represent a chosen "people" in the original sense of an elect nation. To that extent, American invocations of a deity-approved special status appear somewhat peculiar, if not offensive, to Christians elsewhere in the world.

- ironyroad

October 21, 2010 at 1:55pm

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Noga, I don't dislike you at all for your treatment of Roi. In fact, I enjoy reading him give you a thorough "thumping," to borrow from the lexicon of one of your idols). For him, this is pure recreation, like macrame or cross country skiing. Only a far more marvelous thing to spectate. However, you fucking Gargoyle of Spine, I detest you for having managed to alienate Basman from these precincts. And don't think I haven't noticed that you never got around to replying to his incisive queries. Though that bit about "You read me because I amuse you" shit was a great parody of a 1930s Hollywood melodrama. For once, The Bully felt bullied. Not that that was even close to B's intention. Those motives are reserved strictly for the likes of you.

- MOLLYSIMON

October 21, 2010 at 2:08pm

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Who's Craig Ferguson? Christianity considered itself the natural and only continuation of the true path of Judaism which the Jews had betrayed, failing as they did, to acknowledge Jesus as the messiah. Hard to reconcile this with the idea that Catholics accept Jews' chosenness.

- noga1

October 21, 2010 at 2:10pm

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I think this needs to be savoured, again: "Noga, I don't dislike you at all for your treatment of Roi. In fact, I enjoy reading him give you a thorough "thumping," to borrow from the lexicon of one of your idols). For him, this is pure recreation, like macrame or cross country skiing. Only a far more marvelous thing to spectate. However, you fucking Gargoyle of Spine, I detest you for having managed to alienate Basman from these precincts. And don't think I haven't noticed that you never got around to replying to his incisive queries. Though that bit about "You read me because I amuse you" shit was a great parody of a 1930s Hollywood melodrama. For once, The Bully felt bullied. Not that that was even close to B's intention. Those motives are reserved strictly for the likes of you." (MollySimon)

- noga1

October 21, 2010 at 2:12pm

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I am REALLY disappointed with Marty Peretz, who spews on many issues like a gunslinger in the old west. Talk about taking a subject out of context. The words of Rabbi Ovadia were part of a larger sermon on what Jews can expect in the days of the Messiah. To make a very long story short, these concepts are worked and reworked through the Talmud, early, and late commentators. These concepts are not unique to Rabbi Yosef. The idea of a Jew living forever is also a spiritual concept that they will be returned to the Garden of Eden (like in the days of Adam and Eve before them eating the forbidden fruit). Every religion has demagoguery of what will transpire at the end of days. Judaism's view, it should be noted, does not include the killing of other nations, as in the case of Islam. NONE of Rabbi Yosef's comments and often-quoted sermons have ever encouraged or acquiesced to violence.

- streaming

October 21, 2010 at 2:42pm

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Noga, you have a point, but all I can tell you is what I learned back then. Maybe it's not "accepts" so much as "notes"? And my point related more to the "people" part than the "chosen" aspect. Craig Ferguson is the Scottish guy who hosts a late-night comedy-and-chatter show on CBS after Letterman ends.

- ironyroad

October 21, 2010 at 2:50pm

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I can't understand what you mean by "And my point related more to the "people" part than the "chosen" aspect." but I'm in no mood to start a theological food fight with you. I don't watch late late night talk shows or even late night talk shows. If I can manage to stay awake late I prefer to watch Charlie rose. Or I watch with my son dvd's he takes out of the library, "Morse", "Midsommer Murders" "The last detective" "The Sandbaggers", and such.

- noga1

October 21, 2010 at 3:06pm

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Actually, there is no theology in Judaism. Maimonides's 13 principles were the first attempt to cull from the Talmud and the other scriptures some basic parameters.

- noga1

October 21, 2010 at 3:08pm

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I'm so flattered that you think my writing bears a re-reading. Haven't bothered to read what you actually wrote because you don't bear any reading. And frankly, it's Jews like you--Jews who care only for their own rights to their "Judea and Samaria"--who make me deeply ashamed. Other Jews may not make Jackson ashamed (and I have to say I admire this quality in him), but the rest of us wince when a bug-dissecting creep like you shows up at the ball. Just remember, Noga, I will always know that you were unable to answer any of Basman's questions.

- MOLLYSIMON

October 21, 2010 at 5:59pm

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I'm thoroughly crushed.

- noga1

October 21, 2010 at 9:15pm

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irony: I enjoyed your Craig Ferguson note :) Popular culture references can be so tricky. Basman flits in and out of different threads, more often outside The Spine than in it. Where he lands has nothing to do with noga. We need more from 'streaming'! Molly's abusive language merits no attention, except for being unusually mean, and small of spirit.

- K2K

October 22, 2010 at 12:39am

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"except for being unusually mean, and small of spirit." Not unusually at all. At least not as far as I'm concerned. In the past she pursued a line of attack against me jeering at what she considered to have diagnosed as my "Asperger's disorder" and when I mentioned my children, she claimed I was a mother who ate her children. Later she apologized and I let it go but apparently it was just a fleeting moment of moral clarity in her otherwise rather addled brain, as roi would say.

- noga1

October 22, 2010 at 7:45am

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When are you going to answer Basman's questions?

- MOLLYSIMON

October 22, 2010 at 11:36am

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"Read it again and maybe you'll manage to get that it was a metaphor." Oh, only a metaphor. Harmless therefore. Like a metaphorical comparison of blacks and apes, let's say? Or a metaphorical comparison of Jews and vermin? The great thing about this thread, noga, is that your moral debasement is now laid completely bare. No more hiding behind Austen, Socrates, or whomever else you quote to distract. Your eagerness to get into the gutter and defend the indefensible is all too plain. There truly is nothing that separates you from those who despise Jews other than circumstance. If you weren't Jewish, you would be an anti-Semite, first-class. Metaphorically speaking, of course. As for the "loathing of Israelis" that you purport to discern in me, you misunderstand completely, as ever. What I loath are Israelis like you who bring discredit and disgrace to Israel and the Jewish people. You embarrass us and you put as at risk by undermining the moral regime on which our survival depends. The world does not perceive a need for Jews, and there are plenty who hate us. One way or another, our survival depends on being part of a moral order. You debase that order and hence you threaten our survival. At the end of the day, your indulgence of your racism will be as nothing compared to what will happen to us if they are allowed to indulge theirs. You once asked my what I thought I was doing here and my response was trying to maintain the distinction between the acceptable and the unacceptable, the permissible and the impermissible. What I did not say explicitly is that our survival depends on maintaining those distinctions, distinctions that you are eager to obliterate. Feh! What a plague you are.

- roidubouloi

October 22, 2010 at 12:47pm

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Some perspective: "Hardline Islamists in Britain have been distributing leaflets calling for the murder of Ahmadi Muslims in Kingston-upon-Thames whilst mosques have been vandalised in Newham and Crawley. [-] When a caller named Asim asked for a scholar to explain whether Ahmadis were legitimate Muslims the imam replied: "Since the time of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) the Sahiba [knowledgeable scholars] have confirmed that anyone who believes in a prophet after the Holy Prophet is a kafir [unbeliever], murtad [apostate] and Wajib-ul Qatal [liable for death]." http://simplyjews.blogspot.com/2010/10/surrey-alistic-muslims-call-for-death.html

- noga1

October 22, 2010 at 4:46pm

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And . . . ? Oh, yeah, now I remember. I'm supposed to be completely distracted from the ugliness of this Shas dude because somewhere out there a Muslim is calling for the death of another Muslim. Don't you ever get tired of this trick? Bored by it? Don't you ever wish you could let loose and say, "Well, yeah, what this Jew has said/done is unforgivable"? It's got to be exhausting to contort you conscience into a pretzel each and every day.

- MOLLYSIMON

October 22, 2010 at 5:53pm

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My comments are not intended for you, silly woman. You are incapable of thinking in any rational way. If you disagree, you might wish to explain why Yosef's words about an end of time prophecy offend you more than the Islamic or Christian prophecies about the end of time. And the fact that you are Jewish and he is Jewish cannot serve as an explanation.

- noga1

October 22, 2010 at 6:09pm

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What does one have to do with the other? You are like a computer that spits out the same answer no matter how varied the data that's entered. Murderous Settler. But the Muslims. Offensive Shas. But the Muslims. Illegal land grabs. But the Muslims. Offensive Republican. But Obama. (Yeah, I owe you an apology. There is that one variant.) "A horse is a horse unless of course that horse is Mr. Ed."

- MOLLYSIMON

October 22, 2010 at 7:05pm

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Your answer is so fantastic so as be in the same realm as Rabbi Yosef's end of the world fantasies. I have no idea what you are talking about.

- noga1

October 22, 2010 at 7:40pm

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Even your insults are stale.

- MOLLYSIMON

October 22, 2010 at 7:49pm

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Mr. Marty Peretz, you must know by now if you are half as smart as you wish us to believe that the title of this post is inaccurate and the quote you attribute to Rabbi Yosef is false. How about rectifying your mistake?

- noga1

October 22, 2010 at 7:50pm

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Fresh insults are not something I pretend to study and acquire. You need roi's venomous mind to produce the kind of insults you crave, Molls.

- noga1

October 22, 2010 at 7:52pm

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So in other words Roi has gotten under your skin. I'm not surprised. Roi is much smarter and more educated than me. And it's been a pleasure to watch him eviscerate you.

- MOLLYSIMON

October 22, 2010 at 9:33pm

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"Roi is much smarter and more educated than me" That's not hard to be.

- noga1

October 22, 2010 at 10:14pm

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That's the best you can do? That? Did you really think for a second that I wasn't going to expect that response? I have to go. But if you want to keep playing you'll have to wait until tomorrow afternoon. I'm volunteering at my kids' Halloween carnival.

- MOLLYSIMON

October 22, 2010 at 10:42pm

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"Did you really think for a second that I wasn't going to expect that response?" It doesn't take a second to figure out your turn and quality of mind, silly woman. I mean, someone who openly indulges in fantasies like you do and has nothing to say that is an original thought formed in her own mind, and then barges in to quarrel about something she doesn't even understand. One hopes you have intelligence and self-awareness enough to expect to be considered an ignorant fool.

- noga1

October 23, 2010 at 6:34am

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Peretz will not change his title. He is hopelessly enraged by the existence of Rabbi Yosef. MOLLY: "... I'm volunteering at my kids' Halloween carnival." costumed as a Zombie, which would be step UP the evolutionary scale for Molly and her mentor, no doubt costumed as Obama-costumed-as-the-Eye-of-Sauron. Their combined venom is the sign of being "hard-wired not to always think clearly when we're scared", so saith Obama.

- K2K

October 23, 2010 at 11:12am

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"Peretz will not change his title. He is hopelessly enraged by the existence of Rabbi Yosef." Yes I know. I would have liked to interrogate him about the root causes of this rage. I would assure him that I would be just as fair towards his myths and biases as I am to Yosef's. I would compare them with similar biases among Christians and Muslims towards Jews and he would have the comfort of knowing that his prejudices are a only a very pale image of theirs and therefore more easily overcomable. Where there is a will... and all that. Orwell managed it. Orwell was a decent man. The question is, is Marty 's decency on the scale of Orwell's or MollySimon's?

- noga1

October 23, 2010 at 11:32am

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We are going for our usual Saturday's walk around Centennial Lake at the West Island. The weather is nice and sunny though chilly. We will be ushering in the season of thick socks, woolen hats and gloves: http://westislandgazette.com/files/westisland/imagecache/small/images/park.jpg http://ic2.pbase.com/o2/27/270127/1/118303207.WbW1m4OA.automn16.jpg

- noga1

October 23, 2010 at 11:40am

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noga: "is Marty 's decency on the scale of Orwell's or MollySimon's?" closer to Orwell, but there is a true reluctance to stop clinging to his mental utopia of secular, communal Zionism. Peretz's only recent admiration of deep religious faith was in his paean to the Catholic faith of the miners of Chile. I have always admired the faith of my Catholic friends, but I secretly envy (and respect) the faith of the Orthodox Jews, the envy based on my complete inability to join them. Peretz is a bit like William Morris, whose disappointment with his Scoialism was so profound that he wrote his utopian novel, "News from Nowhere", and then completely retreated into a genre of his own creation, heroic fantasy. Peretz is stuck with the reality of Israel, circa 2010, or watching America wrestle with it's multiple realities. He should try moving to Vermont :) noga's photos of "Centennial Lake at the West Island" are deeply soothing, as are the similar images of fall foliage (without the lake) outside my window. gloves not yet required.

- K2K

October 23, 2010 at 2:19pm

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"...a true reluctance to stop clinging to his mental utopia of secular, communal Zionism" It's probably what accounts for some Jewish intellectuals not only turning away from Israel but setting upon her as if it were the nexus of all evil. Just because they could not reconcile their utopian visions with the reality that a normal nation, like any human being, cannot live in perfect justice. They appear to prefer, seriously, the diasporic Jew. Hannah Arendt was sympathetic to this hankering for righteous powerlessness, up to a point, as she elaborated in her 1964 interview for German TV: "..one pays dearly for freedom. The specifically Jewish humanity signified by [Jewish] worldlessness was something very beautiful... it was something very beautiful , this sundering aside of all social connections, the complete open-mindedness and absence of prejudice that I experienced... Of course a great deal was lost with the passing of all that. One pays for liberation. I once said in my Lessing speech. . . Gaus : Hamburg in 1959 . . . Arendt: Yes, there I said that "this humanity... has never yet survived the hour of liberation, of freedom, by so much as minute" You see, that has also happened to us. Gaus: You wouldn't like to undo it? Arendt: No. I know that one has to pay a price for freedom. But I cannot say that I like to pay."

- noga1

October 23, 2010 at 9:29pm

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MOLLY: "... I'm volunteering at my kids' Halloween carnival." costumed as a Zombie, which would be step UP the evolutionary scale for Molly and her mentor, no doubt costumed as Obama-costumed-as-the-Eye-of-Sauron. Their combined venom is the sign of being "hard-wired not to always think clearly when we're scared", so saith Obama. _________________ You are such a pathetic coward K2K, desperate to win noga's approval by showing that you are willing to behave as she does, but so terrified at the possible response that you wait until you can deliver your pitiful bite at the ankle without, you hope, being noticed. And then you will go back to complaining about insulting behavior in the hope that most people around here won't notice who you really are. They notice, K2K, they notice.

- roidubouloi

October 24, 2010 at 11:46pm

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"..in the hope that most people around here won't notice who you really are. They notice, K2K, they notice." I believe you are right, roi.

- noga1

October 25, 2010 at 8:26am

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Having read this article about Peretz's travails vis a vis the student body at Harvard U. and Peretz's confiture confronted by such hostile reluctance to contextualize the damning quotes, http://hpronline.org/hprgument/purging-peretz/ I wonder how he succeeds in doing the same and worse* when it comes to Yosef's commentary about the end of times. Actually, the "end of times" and "messiah" are completely absent from the quote or comments made by Prof. Peretz. How does it feel, Prof. Peretz, to be a living illustration for the Christian plea: "with what judgment ye judge ye shall be judged! ” __________ *"worse", because there is no ambiguity about Yosef's meaning while some would say that there is enough ambiguity in the quotes attributed to Peretz to warrant some discomfort.

- noga1

October 25, 2010 at 11:13am

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"and Peretz's confiture confronted by such hostile reluctance to contextualize the damning quotes, " I meant of course "discomfiture". The "confiture" is a kind of Freudian slip. I'm experimenting with the preparation of different kinds of orange preserves and I'm bothered that I cannot come even close to the kind of confiture my grandma could easily produce with a sleight of hand. Nothing to do with Peretz, except maybe that my grandma was a sephardic Jew. The mind tends to create strange and unconscious connections...

- noga1

October 25, 2010 at 11:18am

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"The mind tends to create strange and unconscious connections..." when trying to preserve oranges and juggle the apples of The Spine on the same day? Peretz can only see the contradictions when he is in his secular comfort zone. Rabbi Yosef has become Peretz's symbol for what he most despises about Israel and Netanyahu's government. I think he thinks Yisreal Beitenu is "salvageable" because they are secular. The "obstinacy" of the deeply religious of any faith is Peretz's blind spot. ok, too many cliches coming to mind to continue here :)

- K2K

October 25, 2010 at 12:23pm

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