The New Republic

I second Peretz' comment. I also with to point out that the congresswoman voted for the healthcare bill which is one reason she was targeted by Palin and her ilk. She is also getting the best medical care including military doctors experienced in gunshot wounds to the head. I hope all Americans will have access to the best treatment available even in a State like Arizona that is trying to limit access to urgently needed medical care.

- arnon

January 11, 2011 at 9:48pm

Good thoughts arnon.

- basman

January 11, 2011 at 10:53pm

Amen.

- Sophia

January 12, 2011 at 2:14am

Meanwhile, Palin has once again shown the boundlessness of her idiocy. In continuing to play defense on criticism of her incendiary rhetoric, she has claimed the media has leveled a "blood libel" against her. Which, considering the heritage of Arizona's most well known victim, is almost incomprehensibly stupid.

- Tristan

January 12, 2011 at 9:47am

apparently Nietzsche is more to blame for Loughner's nihilism. And an unusually high standard for expecting your congressperson to understand and answer a specific question. As more such 'facts' emerge, I doubt that Rep. Giffords being Jewish or voting for Obamacare had anything to do with her being a target for assassination on Saturday. She does represent a true swing district, which is what both political parties "target" for a win. I wonder what Rep. Giffords thought about the Obami approach to peace between Israel and the palestinians. May she recover, and continue to lead a full life.

- K2K

January 12, 2011 at 9:53am

I am touched by the Congresswoman's expression of Jewish pride. We don't hear much of that these days in left-wing-dominated academia and the press. Per some previous comments, I don't begrudge the Congresswoman's medical care. I mourn the dead and hope for the best for the other surviving victims. This was truly a despicable crime aimed at our democracy. The conservatives need to reflect on their war against the American state. That's really what their campaign to shrink and cripple the government (our democracy) is all about. Prominent Republican activist Grover Norquist says he wants to "strangle the government in the bathtub".They are the agents of giant Benedict Arnold banks who want no democratic controls on their behavior and their access to the public purse for excessive financial risk taking.

- amidut

January 12, 2011 at 10:23am

Shouldn't that be either 'Til or Until? (one 'L'.)

- Haole45

January 12, 2011 at 10:23am

"I wonder what Rep. Giffords thought about the Obami approach to peace between Israel and the palestinians. May she recover, and continue to lead a full life." K2K, from the sounds of her 2006 Arizona Jewish Post article, she probably approved of it --you know, the negotiations and all. Which means that her near-death and likely retirement was probably a good thing, since we need fewer fuzzy-minded, Muslim-coddling liberals like her in Congress and more "pro-Israel" politicians, right? On the other hand, if your thoughts are not really so crass, perhaps you should refrain from speculating on such foolish matters as whether and what this poor, brave woman thought about this or that political issue that agitates your empty mind.

- wildboy

January 12, 2011 at 10:32am

Well, since this is a post about Giffords expressing Jewish pride and resolute support for Israel, K2K's question is very much in context and relevant. Other Jewish Democrats expressed their dismay at the way Obama singled out Israel for for public scolding and snubbing its Prime Minister while on a visit in the WH. This is what lingers in the mind about Obama's "efforts" on behalf of peace. He entered into a bad situation and made it much worse, for precisely failing to understand such basic ideas as expressed by the brave woman: "Until the Palestinian leadership and other hostile regimes are willing to accept Israel’s right to exist, it will be impossible to achieve peace."

- noga1

January 12, 2011 at 1:30pm

I'm sorry, but how does Obama's treatment of Israel have anything to do with this crime? And how is the recognition of Giffords' Jewishness or generic support for Israel at all relevant to musings about Middle East policy? After all, if you took the time to look up public statements about ethnic or religious background and feelings toward Israel by other Jewish members of Congress (or Jewish state or local legislators, for that matter), you would hear pretty much the same anodyne statements as Giffords made in her article in the Arizona Jewish Post. It would be one thing if she was some kind of major player in America's Middle East policy, but she clearly wasn't and isn't. Yours is really a one-track mind -- everything that ever happens in the world comes back to Israel and Jews and it's always relevant to consider the potential implications for Israel from all of this. Really just a flip-side of the anti-Semitic mindset, that sees the machinations of the Jews in everything that happens no matter how irrelevant to Jews or Israel it may seem to the average non-bigot.

- wildboy

January 12, 2011 at 1:50pm

The killer wrote that Marx and Hitler were among his favorite writers he also liked Gulliver’s Travels. So how can anyone narrow down the influence on his actions to one source: Nietzsche? The killer had lots of opinions views on everything from grammar to “mind control” and he was anything but a “nihilist.” He may have been a nut, but he was an ultra-right wing bigoted nut. He was interested in the American Renaissance movement an antisemitic organization that believes in conspiracy theories like the “ZOG.” That organization, like Palin and other right wing people, disclaims any influence on Loughner. They don’t mind preaching hate but don’t won’t to take responsibility for what their preaching brings about. Sarah Plain talking about being “blood libeled” makes as much sense as a professional soldier claiming to be a pacifist.

- arnon

January 12, 2011 at 4:26pm

This must be the oddest comment posted here, “I wonder what Rep. Giffords thought about the Obami approach to peace between Israel and the palestinians. May she recover, and continue to lead a full life.”

- arnon

January 12, 2011 at 4:28pm

I can't understand why commenters here are bothered by K2K's "“I wonder what Rep. Giffords thought about the Obami approach to peace between Israel and the palestinians". The fact that she is Jewish and a supporter of Israel is the reason why Peretz posted about her, as he says here: " ... this little memoiristic note from Gabrielle Giffords which was published in the Arizona Jewish Post in 2006 is a paradigm of how almost liberal Jewish women experience the world and feel about the ties between Israel and the United States." Why can we wonder how she felt about Obama's troubled relationship with Israel? She has THE NEWS today and people talk about her, want to know about her. So I would have liked to know, too, about that particular detail. What's with the policing of what people speak and wonder about in a conversation? What's with the attempt to shame and embarrass a poster with descriptions like "This must be the oddest comment" or "Yours is really a one-track mind -- everything that ever happens in the world comes back to Israel and Jews and it's always relevant to consider the potential implications for Israel from all of this. Really just a flip-side of the anti-Semitic mindset, that sees the machinations of the Jews in everything that happens no matter how irrelevant to Jews or Israel it may seem to the average non-bigot." ??

- noga1

January 12, 2011 at 5:31pm

“I can't understand why commenters here are bothered by K2K's "“I wonder what Rep. Giffords thought about the Obami approach to peace between Israel and the palestinians". “ It’s not the not so innocent question that is the problem, it’s the subsequent hypocritical comment: “May she recover, and continue to lead a full life.” It’s hard to believe that K2K is sincere in his wish. This poster had previously tried to divorce the killer from any right wing antisemitic connections. It’s in this context that he asked the question “I wonder what Rep. Giffords thought about the Obami approach to peace between Israel and the palestinians". “ I don’t believe that K2K was asking an innocent question. The implication of that question is that the Congresswoman pro-Israel stance was not strong enough. I don't believe that K2K was sincere whne he wished Giffords to "recover, and continue to lead a full life.”

- arnon

January 12, 2011 at 6:24pm

"This poster had previously tried to divorce the killer from any right wing antisemitic connections." Have you seen the killer's photo on TV? Did you notice that he looks quite mad, frighteningly insane? This is a person who obviously suffers from a severe mental illness and no one, no one can get into the mind of such a killer to determine what triggered his killing spree.

- noga1

January 12, 2011 at 6:54pm

"Have you seen the killer's photo on TV? Did you notice that he looks quite mad, frighteningly insane? This is a person who obviously suffers from a severe mental illness and no one, no one can get into the mind of such a killer to determine what triggered his killing spree." Tell that to K2K: "apparently Nietzsche is more to blame for Loughner's nihilism."

- arnon

January 12, 2011 at 7:18pm

clarification: 1) I am not following every detail that emerges on Loughner's reading habits - before my comment at 9:53 am, I had read about Nietzsche and nihilism in the NYT. And, I knew that he had asked Rep Giffords a question in 2007 that he did not like the answer to. 2) Peretz cites what Rep. Giffords thought about the Bush43 efforts/lack thereof in 2006: "The failure of the current administration to continue the peace process has been a loss to America and Israel. That is why we need a new direction in Washington." So, yes, I am curious what she thought of the Obama approach 2009-2010. Hence my expression of that curiousity, with NO pre-judgement. I do not follow Arizona congressional politics, and only knew Rep. Giffords always has tough re-election due to the swing district, and she is a Blue Dog fiscal conservative. Of course I want her to recover and continue to lead a full life. Awkward to phrase it any other way since her wound is horrific and I felt bad when I read she only recently married - such a full life shattered by someone who did not seem impaired by mental illness in his planning and execution. more like the Unabomber, whose manifesto actually made some sense when I read it. As to all the speculation about Loughner, "mental illness" is a vast category, and, again, from the bits I have read, it does seem he used drugs, maybe smart without direction, and a lot of maybes, but being rejected by the Army (drug test), being rejected /losing jobs, being asked to leave college, thinking his congresswoman should maybe have the answers - very complicated, but no excuse for apparently planning a massacre and assassination. I just do not see where political ideology factors into it - and I know how drugs can really screw up someone with weak social skills who is seeing no future. Happened to quite a few people I came of age with in the late 1960's - when there were also a lot of gun crimes. Not everything is about rightwing-leftwing. Thanks noga. While I support the 2nd Amendment, I also believe that gun ownership should be as controlled as car ownership: written test & proficiency test for the license, and insurance. And the Democratic Party totally caved to the NRA when they allowed the 1994 federal law on semi-and automatic weapons to expire. No one outside of law enforcement/military needs a 31-bullet clip for their Glock19.

- K2K

January 12, 2011 at 8:35pm

For someone who didn't know this and didn't know that you had some strong opinions. "And, I knew that he had asked Rep Giffords a question in 2007 that he did not like the answer to" I don’t know why you even brought this up? Many conservatives have made much of this as if this is supposed to explain or justify the shooting? This is just malicious pandering to their fanatic followers on their part. Do you think that any congressman, senator, or even president reads the thousands of pages affixed to most bills? This is what their staff is for. I know a woman lawyer who worked at a State legislature and whose job it was to read the hundreds of pages of each bill and offer detailed summaries. She told me that no legislator she knew could take the time to do the reading. Does anyone think that Bush read the bills he signed? If Giffords said she didn’t know the answer she was more honest than most politicians.

- arnon

January 12, 2011 at 9:47pm

Arnon: when CNN, on Sunday, when I thought I was going to listen to Candy Crowley's regular show and instead watched an hour of their coverage of this story, CNN interviewed a young woman who knows Loughner who went to a meet and greet in 2007 where Loughner asked a question of Rep. Giffords. The young woman on CNN said she was there, and she did not understand Loughner's question. and Loughner apparently was very angry with her answer. Here is the latest on that face-to-face meeting in 2007: "...But emerging information about primary suspect Jared Loughner suggests that he was motivated not by a climate of hate but rather by his own troubled mind and a personal vendetta against Congresswoman Giffords, who was injured in the attack. The investigation has not concluded, and more information could come to light. But for now, a majority of Americans are dismissing the notion that the shooter was set off by a Sarah Palin political map, tea party anger, or talk about "second amendment remedies." ...one piece of evidence collected so far is a 2007 letter from Giffords's office to Mr. Loughner, thanking him for attending a meet-and-greet event. On it is scrawled a death threat to Giffords. ... A Loughner friend, Zach Osler, told ABC's "Good Morning America" on Wednesday that Loughner "did not watch TV. He disliked the news. He didn’t listen to political radio. He didn’t take sides. He wasn’t on the left. He wasn’t on the right."..." http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2011/0112/As-portrait-of-Jared-Loughner-sharpens-vitriol-blame-fades You might want to consider that perhaps Loughner fixated on his face-to-face meeting with Giffords instead of jumping to the conclusion that he wrote a letter that she never actually read, being so busy... Asking too much for you to reconsider that not all conservatives engage in "malicious pandering" or that all their "followers" are fanatics. That reads like real hysteria on your part.

- K2K

January 12, 2011 at 11:26pm

"...But emerging information about primary suspect Jared Loughner suggests that he was motivated not by a climate of hate but rather by his own troubled mind and a personal vendetta against Congresswoman Giffords, who was injured in the attack.” Why is it an either/or proposition? And K2K first you talk about Loughner’s “Nietzschean nihilism” and now you propose another incomplete theory about motivation. You are hysterically trying to find the latest theory offered by the media that will fit your own preconceptions. Your sole interest is letting off the right wing nuts like Limbaugh and Plain off the hook. Sorry, I don’t buy it. There is a lot of hatred on both sides of the political spectrum and if you don’t think that that hatred affects the way people act and think about politics you are kidding yourself. Here is another example, “Man Held in Threats against Wash. Congressman” by The Associated Press “A California man was arrested Wednesday on a charge that he made threatening, obscene phone calls to the office of U.S. Rep. Jim McDermott last month, weeks before a gunman shot Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and others in Arizona. An FBI complaint unsealed in federal court said Charles Turner Habermann, 32, of Palm Springs, Calif., called the Seattle Democrat's office late Dec. 9 and early Dec. 10 and left two messages, each about four minutes long, after seeing him on television. He began each with his name and phone number, and went on to threaten to kill the congressman, as well as his friends and family, over his opposition to extending tax cuts for the wealthy, according to transcripts recited in the complaint.” http://www.npr.org/2011/01/12/132869539/man-held-in-threats-against-wash-congressman

- arnon

January 12, 2011 at 11:53pm

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/01/13/the_exceptional_american_berserk_murder_guns_freedom_and_gabrielle_giffords_108521.html is the only commentary that fits my AFTER-the-massacre conception of what happened on Saturday. I am more surprised Loughner did not plan his massacre for Pima Community College. The usual place for such mass gun violence is either a former school or former workplace. Arnon: save your attacks for someone who matters, or cares. You want to believe a 22-year old man was motivated by "political hatred" instead of spending a few years smoking marijuana immersed in online gaming, well, good luck finding oxygen in your silo.

- K2K

January 13, 2011 at 9:07am

From K2K opinionated column. “The Arizona shooting reminds us of a half-century of political assassins. Most of these men lacked any coherent political motive--recall the shooter of Bobby Kennedy, George Wallace and Ronald Reagan. We still debate Lee Harvey Oswald's sanity and cause.” The article is long on opinions short on facts. Did the killer of Bobby Kennedy lack “any coherent political motive?” Anyone who believes that doesn’t know much about Sirhan Sirhan: “During Sirhan's testimony, Cooper asked him to explain his reasons for the attack on Kennedy. Sirhan launched into "...a vicious diatribe about the Middle East conflict between Arab and Jew." [7][11] Sirhan's anti-Zionist rhetoric was so passionate that one of his own defense counsel, Emile Zola Berman, who was Jewish, became upset and expressed his intentions to resign [yet again] from the defense team. Berman was eventually talked out of resigning by Cooper and stayed until the end of the trial.[7]” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirhan_Sirhan#Prosecution The writer brought up some recent assassinations that were committed by confused individuals, but skipped over those that didn’t fit his conclusion: Lincoln or that of William McKinley. K2K has shown his inability to assimilate historical facts that contradict his simple minded right wing view about political violence.

- arnon

January 13, 2011 at 9:41am

A New York Times news article makes a strong case that Loughner is mentally ill: “‘Creepy,’ ‘Very Hostile’: A College Recorded Its Fears” http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/13/us/13college.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp Loughner didn’t shoot people at random at his college or elsewhere. And the question that still needs to be answered is why this nutcase chose to attack a congresswoman? His action was well planned in advance.

- arnon

January 13, 2011 at 10:24am

Laughner, you're not predictable and I like that! On this post: You got it just right with Sirhan.

- MOLLYSIMON

January 13, 2011 at 3:16pm

"And the question that still needs to be answered is why this nutcase chose to attack a congresswoman? His action was well planned in advance." Once again I'd like to point out that the person is suffering from a severe paranoid schizophrenia. The wire lines between rational cause and rational effect are probably badly garbled. So "why this nutcase chose to attack a congresswoman?" is not really a question that can be asked. The question should be: How can society be so incompetent in providing more solid solutions to and about mentally afflicted people? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41044217/ns/health-mental_health/

- noga1

January 13, 2011 at 3:18pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41044217/ns/health-mental_health/

- noga1

January 13, 2011 at 3:20pm

News reports immediately in the wake of the massacre mentioned the law enforcement was seeking the whereabouts of an older man who was apparently in the company of Loughner. They had a picture of this individual, obtained from a security camera at the scene. But I've heard nothing since about this man, or the attempts by police to identify him. Anyone heard any more about this?

- Haole45

January 13, 2011 at 3:23pm

“Once again I'd like to point out that the person is suffering from a severe paranoid schizophrenia.” Are you a psychiatrist qualified to diagnose mental condition from a distance without meeting the “patient?” You did ask a useful question, though, but it’s not one conservatives like to answer. “How can society be so incompetent in providing more solid solutions to and about mentally afflicted people?” American society doesn’t have a far reaching mental health program because government at all levels refuses to finance it. Conservative tea partiers are more interested in tax cuts than in helping the mentally afflicted.

- arnon

January 13, 2011 at 7:02pm

The article from msnbc quoted above made an elemental error. The psychiatric definition of mental illness is not the standard courts of law use. Loughner may designated as mentally ill, and to most of us he does seem to be a nut, but in a court of law if the defendant is said to know “right from wrong” he is fit to stand trial. The insanity defense is rarely given credence in courtrooms. Where are we then? Loughner fell through the cracks of the mental health system because we don’t have a mental health system capable of reaching out to the millions of people who could benefit from it. Jared Loughner held views on economics and on governmental power that are shared by millions of conservative people in this country. Loughner did have enough self-control to plan his assault on the government official he designated as the enemy. He engaged in target practice on the morning he raided the supermarket. His insanity seems different from that of right wing nuts like Rush Limbaugh, or of Congresswoman Michele Bachmann http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-chait/81433/maybe-find-better-defense-michelle-bachmann or Glenn Beck among others in degree and not in kind. So far those mentioned above are for now content just to talk or preach and not to act. J Chait put it well when he said: “But there's a deeper radicalism hiding in plain sight. The whole nature of the Tea Party is a meta-message that legitimizes hysteria.” http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-chait/81403/more-loughner-and-right-wing-hysteria#comments

- arnon

January 13, 2011 at 7:07pm

For those who think that the shooting of Giffords was an isolated phenomenon should read this: "While Arizonans go to great lengths to plead that the rest of America not judge their state (or its politics) by the Tucson shootings, the leader of a suburban Phoenix Republican group has resigned — saying threats had been made against him. Anthony Miller, who was recently elected to a second term as chairman of Arizona's Legislative District 20, made his decision on Saturday just hours after learning that a gunman had killed six people and shot U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ). Miller has told reporters that he'd received verbal and email threats from local Tea Party activists opposed to his re-election and his alliance with Sen. John McCain (R-AZ). Arizona Tea Party members had supported Miller's opponent as well as McCain's opponent, J.D. Hayworth, in the November elections. Miller, 43, is the first African-American to lead the GOP's District 20. He said some of the attacks were racially charged. He recalled a person referring to him as "McCain's boy." At one event, he said, a person yelled, "There's Anthony. Get a rope." Miller said that prompted by the Tucson shootings, his wife brought up the hostility and expressed concern about their safety. "I wasn't going to resign but decided to quit after what happened Saturday," Miller told the Huffington Post. "I love the Republican Party, but I don't want to take a bullet for anyone."" http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2011/01/13/132913500/after-shootings-local-gop-official-quits-i-dont-want-to-take-a-bullet-for-anyone

- arnon

January 14, 2011 at 12:17am

Haole45: CNN reported the older man was the cabdriver who took Loughner to the Safeway - he asked for change for the $20 bill, and the cab driver entered a store to get the change. No further issue. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/12/AR2011011206630.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2011011203220 is the URL for a long report titled: "Friends, teachers tell of Loughner's descent into world of fantasy" By Amy Gardner, David A. Fahrenthold and Marc Fisher Washington Post Staff Writers Thursday, January 13, 2011; 12:00 AM also linked Thursday at RCP. Arnon should drop his obsession with K2K - it is creepy :)

- K2K

January 14, 2011 at 7:20am

K2K should drop his hysterical obsession with Arnon, it's creepy.

- arnon

January 14, 2011 at 9:19am

Here is a companion piece to the article by Peretz, Giffords’s Jewish Journey: From Israel To Service and Study Read more: http://forward.com/articles/134641/#ixzz1B1J2JSIL

- arnon

January 14, 2011 at 9:32am

To EDT: Thanks, I missed that.

- Haole45

January 14, 2011 at 8:48pm

Please, please! Whoever edits this...It is either 'Til or Until! Not Till! I of course wish for the Congressman's speedy and complete recovery. But I do not want to see this poor woman working in the fields forever!

- Haole45

January 14, 2011 at 10:27pm

Here is an important article about the right wing reaction to the shooting: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/opinion/16rich.html?hp "For macabre absurdity, it would seem hard to top Newt Gingrich, who wailed about leftists linking Loughner to the right as if he had not famously blamed a psychotic double-murder of 1994, Susan Smith’s drowning of her two sons in South Carolina, on “Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society.” But Representative Trent Franks, Republican of Arizona, did top Newt. On “Meet the Press” last Sunday he implored us to “treat each other as fellow children of God” without acknowledging (or being questioned about) his 2009 diatribe branding Obama as “an enemy of humanity.”"

- arnon

January 16, 2011 at 12:27am