SUBSCRIBE NOW WELCOME BACK. Do you want to continue reading where you left off? New Republic subscribers can pick up where they left off no matter which device they were previously using. SUBSCRIBE NOW

Go Home Most Jewish Israelis Want To Live Separately From Their...

THE SPINE JANUARY 14, 2011

Most Jewish Israelis Want To Live Separately From Their Ultra-Orthodox Brethren. And The Haredim Don’t Want To Live With Modern Jews Either.

BY MARTIN PERETZ

Of course, the issue of residential segregation in Israel comes up mostly between Arabs and Jews. And the fact is that it is the pattern but not the law. Arabs are a communal group with tight bonds among the generations. These bonds are often frayed—and often more than frayed—by what are sometimes multi-generational feuds. But there are in Galilee and on the northern coast, certainly around Jerusalem and Haifa, hundreds of thousands of Israeli Arabs (some call themselves Palestinians but don’t for a moment want to live in “Palestine”) who are relatively prosperous, work hard, live under benign rule that guarantees them generous social services (exactly like those provided to Jews and Druze) and have the protection of a civil liberties state. Generally, however, Jews live among Jews, Muslims among Muslims, Christian Arabs among Christian Arabs, Druze among Druze, Circassians among Circassians, Samaritans among Samaritans, and tribes of Bedouin roaming with their own tribe and with no one else. The Old City of Jerusalem has been divided for many centuries into the Armenian Quarter, the Christian Quarter, the Muslim Quarter and the Jewish Quarter. It is a mixed society but not exactly a plural society. Walk down King David Street from the Jaffa Gate.

This is the general pattern in Israel. But there are exceptions. Haifa is a relatively integrated city of Jews and Christians. I’ve myself lived twice in the Jaffa neighborhood of Tel Aviv with a rich mixture of non-religious Jews, Muslim Arabs and Christian Arabs of nearly all persuasions. It is also a peaceful mixture with, however, a sub-stratum of resentment because the prosperous are buying up from the poor (both Arabs and Jews) run-down block upon block and turning them into very chic houses and ever more chic eateries.

But now Safed, which is actually a gorgeous walled city with ancient roots and rich history. It is situated at the highest elevation in the country and its past follows the history of the land itself: Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Ottoman, British, Jewish again. Here was the Kabbalist movement (you know the one that has attracted Madonna) founded by, among others, Joseph Caro, an ancestor of the sculptor Anthony Caro. The truth is that Safed is still wrapped in mystery. And one of the mysteries is how the holy city, also a center of Hassidism and especially of the slightly mad but poetic strain founded by Reb Nahman of Bratzlav who, born in 1772, died in 1810. The movement he started has not yet found a successor. But in Safed his leaderless acolytes still pursue a life of Jewish ecstasy.

Strange, then, that mean-streak Jewishness has also sunk deep roots in Safed. So it is not a new phenomenon. The phenomenon has a leader, Safed’s chief rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu, who has been dueling with Arabs for a long time.
His latest and most vicious prank came about after the announcement that a new medical school would be established in the city. It was correctly assumed that this institution, planned for Safed by Bar Ilan University and the educational authorities of the country, would increase the number of Arab students in Safed and surroundings. Right now there are 200 Arab families in the city of 35,000 people. This terrifies Rabbi Eliyahu and the 50 other rabbis who have backed his stand, which also provoked a letter by dozens of rebbitzin, wives of rabbis who do not usually make any noise, warning young women to beware of young Arab men. This bigotry is ugly and particularly ugly in the context of Jewish history. It is pre-Nazi and proto-Nazi.

It has provoked outrage among many Israeli Jews, shamed by the audacity of the ultra-religious whose spirituality has, in any case, been put to doubt by the general corruption of the orthodox rabbinate which is all that counts in Israel: on marriage, divorce, certification of kosher food and restaurants, suitability to be buried in Jewish cemeteries, etc. Most people don’t know that the vesting of matters of personal status into the hands of the various religious establishments was a quid pro quo given by the Zionists to the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches to keep them from waging a war against partition. Jewish concerns about freedom from the rabbis were less than an afterthought since David Ben Gurion actually believed that ultra-orthodoxy among the Jews would disappear. How wrong he was.

About 12 to 14 percent of the Israeli population are ultra-orthodox or haredi or “those who tremble before God.” They are divided between people of eastern extraction—descending from the Spanish exile in Greece and Turkey or from the Arab countries and Iran and called Sephardi, the Iranians erroneously—and those of European extraction and called Ashkenazi. The latter group is divided into two types: the Hassidim (some more or less joyous, like the followers of the now deceased old man looking down on you from billboards nearly anywhere, some severe, all obsessed with the separation of the sexes and afraid of modernity) and the Mitnagdim or “the opponents,” which they are quite haughty about being. They are, by the way, normally quite learned. There are significant theological issues among the groups. No one aside from the followers seems to care about theology. What perturbs the outsiders, including the modern “live and let live” orthodox, is the coercion that the tremblers are always trying to impose on every Jew in the Jewish state. Indeed, it’s my guess that the ordinary Jewish citizen of Israel worries more about what the Haredi will try to impose on him or deprive him of than about the Arabs and their intentions.

That is because the ultra-orthodox have concrete impositions in mind for the non-orthodox. It may range from trying to keep a public parking lot or many public parking lots closed on the Sabbath to preventing a secular neighbor from playing his CDs on Saturday. I am, for my sins, president of the Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra. When I informed the office of the former mayor Uri Lupianski that the J.S.O. under the baton of Leon Botstein would perform Dvorak’s Requiem, he asked whether there were female singers in the chorus, in which he would not come. Well, that’s not so bad because the only people deprived were those who felt they were fulfilling a religious injunction. In any case, the Haredim are always trying to foist on non-believers behavior patterns to which they have no affinity or loyalty. Right now in Jerusalem they are trying to impose on the city’s bus system gender separation. It reminds me of my visit to Saudi Arabia when, in Jeddah, the same prince who told me that “a black face begins a black day” pointed to a line of women in their burkhas actually slithering against walls of the street and said “those are unidentified black objects. Ha, ha, ha.” I have not begun to touch the humiliations the ultra-religious impose on their own...and which they aspire to impose on their children. Whatever the law says, the yeshivot or religious high schools are not much more intellectual than the madrassas of Pakistan.

So what is the attitude of the general Jewish population to their tormentors? There was a fascinating story by Jonah Mandel in Tuesday’s Jerusalem Post. It was headlined “Most Jewish Israelis in favor of Haredim living separately, study finds.” Significantly, a majority (61 percent) of the Haredim themselves agreed or agreed to some extent with the proposition.

The study was conducted by the Geocartography Research Institute. The reason that Prof. Avi Degani, the president of the institute, deduced for 43 percent of Jewish Israelis opposing the scheme is that it would necessitate “the allocation of national funds to create an expensive separation for a small minority which is highly non-productive, and would demand state support of (Haredi) cities formed.”

In 1999 the ultra-religious population was 545,000. The figure estimated for 2022 is 1,018,535.

SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS

Show all 102 comments

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

102 comments

That's a serious and seriously interesting report Marty. You excel at this on the ground; eyes of history stuff.

- IggyPop

January 14, 2011 at 8:33pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

That's a serious and seriously interesting report Marty. You excel at this on the ground; eyes of history stuff.

- IggyPop

January 14, 2011 at 8:35pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Thank you Dr. Peretz for an enlightening article. You have raised the level of understanding considerably.

- LawrenceGulotta

January 14, 2011 at 9:43pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

the residential self-segregation, with some exceptions, sounds like Brooklyn, New York. except it is Mayor Bloomberg always trying to impose his belief system on the entire city (Thou shalt not consume cigarettes or trans-fats). Peretz is a source of "mean-streak Jewishness" by his increasing vitriol against the ultra-Orthodox Jews. Get over it, or move back to Cambridge, Massachusetts.

- K2K

January 14, 2011 at 10:59pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

I'm not sure that a proposal for gender separation in public transport is exactly undeserving of vitriol. Why not ethnic or racial or religious separation while we're at it? Aren't we always lecturing Muslim countries on their backward treatment of women, their ethnic prejudices, and the like?

- ironyroad

January 15, 2011 at 4:05am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Peretz's reporting of facts remains lacking in accuracy and subtlety. I was surprised to read on his post that Right now in Jerusalem they are trying to impose on the city’s bus system gender separation. I knew the problem of gender segregation existed on a bus line from Benei-Brak to Jerusalem which served only the Hassidic community and which is a separate company from the Bus company that serves the rest of israel. So here is the latest news about the issue: http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/high-court-gender-segregation-legal-on-israeli-buses-but-only-with-passenger-consent-1.335567 Also, I'm not at all sure that his classification of who comprises "ultra orthodox" in Israel is at all accurate. For one thing, Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews have never been defined as "ultra orthodox". or "Chassidim". These are Ashkenazi religious movements. I don't know why he counts "Shas" among them. If you go into ultra Orthodox circles you will find such discrimination against Shas members that bus gender segregation will look ridiculous in comparison. There are a few schools where there is actual, physical segregation between Ashkenazi and Mizrahi or Ethiopian students. It's been an on going festering source of media attention for a few years now and for some reason the will of the state and the public cannot be imposed on these schools. These are the same people, BTW, who share a lot more with the anti-Zionist Satmar chassidim than they do with any Shas members (for all that Peretz tries to foist the onus on "those Mizrahi Jews" exemplified in his clouded mind in the figure of Ovadia Yosef). SHAS is Zionist to the core. Satmar are the kind that could call me and my daughter "Pritzes" (whores) for participating in a march for Israel a couple of years ago in Montreal. Funny how docile these ultra orthodox Jews are when they are not Israel. In Israel they feel they can make demands, even as they don't even bother to their duty like serving in the military or doing some equivalent useful service for the nation. BTW, about "a letter by dozens of rebbitzin, wives of rabbis who do not usually make any noise, warning young women to beware of young Arab men. This bigotry is ugly and particularly ugly in the context of Jewish history. It is pre-Nazi and proto-Nazi." Proto-nazi? Really? Does Peretz wish to tell us that similar concerns for their daughters getting involved with non-Jewish men did not exist in Eastern European communities? Or in any other Jewish community that wished for Judaism to survive the tensions of a non-Jewish environment? Why should it be any different in Israel? A letter by "wives of rabbis who do not usually make any noise" is a proto nazi harbinger of other things to come? I'm so glad Peretz is in Israel. His bigotries were less noticeable to me when he was writing about American culture and politics. Now I know exactly what moves him and I can even better understand the rage that he provoked in some of the posters here.

- noga1

January 15, 2011 at 7:24am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Here is the recovered second half of the comment truncated above: http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/high-court-gender-segregation-legal-on-israeli-buses-but-only-with-passenger-consent-1.335567 Also, I'm not at all sure that his classification of who comprises "ultra orthodox" in Israel is at all accurate. For one thing, Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews have never been defined as "ultra orthodox". or "Chassidim". These are Ashkenazi religious movements. I don't know why he counts "Shas" among them. If you go into ultra Orthodox circles you will find such discrimination against Shas members that bus gender segregation will look ridiculous in comparison. There are a few schools where there is actual, physical segregation between Ashkenazi and Mizrahi or Ethiopian students. It's been an on going festering source of media attention for a few years now and for some reason the will of the state and the public cannot be imposed on these schools. These are the same people, BTW, who share a lot more with the anti-Zionist Satmar chassidim than they do with any Shas members (for all that Peretz tries to foist the onus on "those Mizrahi Jews" exemplified in his clouded mind in the figure of Ovadia Yosef). SHAS is Zionist to the core. Satmar are the kind that could call me and my daughter "Pritzes" (whores) for participating in a march for Israel a couple of years ago in Montreal. Funny how docile these ultra orthodox Jews are when they are not Israel. In Israel they feel they can make demands, even as they don't even bother to their duty like serving in the military or doing some equivalent useful service for the nation. BTW, about "a letter by dozens of rebbitzin, wives of rabbis who do not usually make any noise, warning young women to beware of young Arab men. This bigotry is ugly and particularly ugly in the context of Jewish history. It is pre-Nazi and proto-Nazi." Proto-nazi? Really? Does Peretz wish to tell us that similar concerns for their daughters getting involved with non-Jewish men did not exist in Eastern European communities? Or in any other Jewish community that wished for Judaism to survive the tensions of a non-Jewish environment? Why should it be any different in Israel? A letter by "wives of rabbis who do not usually make any noise" is a proto nazi harbinger of other things to come? I'm so glad Peretz is in Israel. His bigotries were less noticeable to me when he was writing about American culture and politics. Now I know exactly what moves him and I can even better understand the rage that he provoked in some of the posters here.

- noga1

January 15, 2011 at 7:26am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

The former mayor of Jerusalem is Lupolianski not Lupianski. irony. The proposal for gender separation in public transport is a disgrace. It is one of the many briberies Israeli political establishment pays to the Haredi parties for keeping them in the coalition.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 15, 2011 at 7:29am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Noga: It is true that the Sephardic or Mizrahi Judaism was never part of the Haredi movement. Those are stricly Ashkenazi. In addition, the Sephardic movements are generally more lenient in observance than the Ashkenazi. Hassidism is stricly Ashkenazi East European phenomenon. Shas however has adopted many of of the Haredi modes, such as what's called in Israel "the uniform". Black suit, white shirt and black fedora.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 15, 2011 at 7:35am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"Shas however has adopted many of of the Haredi modes, such as what's called in Israel "the uniform". Black suit, white shirt and black fedora." I don't get it why certain Mizrahi rabbis like Yosef go about dressed in galabias and turbans like a mullah. Is that somehow more "authentic" than the seventeenth century Polish fashion that the ultra religious affect? I just don't get it. http://arturovasquez.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/maimo.jpg Maimonedes was dressed like it in 13th century Cordova, which was Morish and men dressed like that. Is there any reason why a rabbi in Israel in the 21st century should affect the same fashion? Is there any reason why an extremely religious Jew in the 21st century should dress like a Plish aristocrat from 17th century Poland?

- noga1

January 15, 2011 at 7:52am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Noga: I think this is an issue of tradition. The same reason judges wear robes and English judges wear wigs. At least jalabia and turban are ME clothes. They fit the climate. Black suits, fedoras and sable shtremels somehow don't jive with 40+ degree heat.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 15, 2011 at 8:12am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Gulp. I knew the ultra-Orthodox were a rapidly-growing and influential group in Israel, but had no idea the percentage was as high as 12-14%. If this division in Israeli society becomes much more entrenched, we might end up with a three-state solution, in which the future Israel is neighboured by not one but two resentful countries dominated by religious extremism.

- Shorpe

January 15, 2011 at 8:48am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"the residential self-segregation, with some exceptions, sounds like Brooklyn, New York. except it is Mayor Bloomberg always trying to impose his belief system on the entire city (Thou shalt not consume cigarettes or trans-fats)." Another bizzare comment by a right wing extremist. Is the regulation of tobacco products the same as not allowing Israelis to marry because they didn’t get the proper conversion certificate? Is the throwing of stones at cars and drivers on the Sabbath the same as ticketing jaywalkers?

- arnon

January 15, 2011 at 12:51pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"I'm so glad Peretz is in Israel. His bigotries were less noticeable to me when he was writing about American culture and politics. Now I know exactly what moves him and I can even better understand the rage that he provoked in some of the posters here." Well, well. Light falls.

- roidubouloi

January 15, 2011 at 1:10pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"I'm so glad Peretz is in Israel. His bigotries were less noticeable..." What bigotries? He has been consistent in calling attention to the dangers emanating from religious extremists, be they Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or leftists who make common cause with the religious bigots and all too often murderers. People have to decide if they want to live in a secular and liberal democracy or some kind of religious authoritarian State.

- arnon

January 15, 2011 at 1:50pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

makover "Noga: I think this is an issue of tradition. The same reason judges wear robes and English judges wear wigs" But these ultra religious Jews are not judges and they do not have any formal role that calls for a traditional "uniform". If they are so careful about differentiating themselves from non_Jews how come they adopt a type of dress that was the very fashion of their Polish or Arab lords and masters in bygone eras?

- noga1

January 15, 2011 at 2:07pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Kudos to Marty for one of his better columns. The influence of the Ultra Orthodox is clearly reducing freedom for other Jews in Israel. Today Anat Hoffman, Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center and Director of Women of the Wall, spoke in Brooklyn on Pluralism within Judaism in Jerusalem (pluralism not being a word that exists in modern Hebrew.) She is facing a 50 year felony charge for carrying a Torah to the women's section of the Wall, which is not against halacha, but rather against custom. Women may not hold the Torah or wear fringed pray shawls like men, at the Western Wall on the grounds that it might "disrupt public order." Although men and women can be seen worshiping together in historic pictures of the wall (see http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/AABR001138.html), the domination by the black hats has prevented this in modern times. Reformed Jewish rabbis have no recognition in Israel - not even the recognition accorded to a Karaite hakham or Greek Orthodox priest. They may not be paid as Orthodox rabbis are and it is quite difficult to obtain buildings for synagogues. Only Netanyahu's fear of losing American military dollars if American Jews prevented amendment to the Law of Return that would have denied entry to Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist converts or Jews who could not legally prove their Judaism (difficult coming from a country where birth certificates are not labeled by religion.) As it is, marriages of non-Orthodox Jews must take place outside of Israel. According to Hoffman, many liberal or secular Israeli's are more terrified of the Ultra Orthodox on a daily basis than the Arabs. Women are beat up for exercising their legal right to sit in the front of public busses. Even Modern Orthodox couples have been set upon by Hassidic mobs while walking together. Karen Gulotta

- LawrenceGulotta

January 15, 2011 at 4:51pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

noga: Whatever they (the Haredim) wear is their problem. I wouldn't care if they were wearing togas. The problem I have is with their behaviour and their unsatisfiable demands from the rest of Israeli citizens. The fact that only a small percentage of their adult males have any gainful employment. The fact that although they suck the welfare of the state they refuse to fulfill any duties of the citizens of the state. In short, I object to them being a parasitic society. Arnon, well said.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 15, 2011 at 5:17pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

LawrenceGulotta: "(pluralism not being a word that exists in modern Hebrew.)" It does, it is "pluralism" in Hebrew פלורליזם. Nobody is terrified by Ultra Orthodox. We are just fed up with their constant blackmail.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 15, 2011 at 5:26pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

The Haredim are a parasitic anti-Zionist group in Israeli society. Most of them don't work or serve in the army. They insist on imposing harsh, illiberal rules on the rest of society. Their ideas about conversion are an insult to the rest of Jewry. Their behavior has polarized Jewish society. It is time to cut off their welfare payments and other subsidies from the government. No, they should not be allowed separate no-go areas. They must either assimilate into majority Jewish society or leave Israel.

- amidut

January 15, 2011 at 5:26pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"The Haredim are a parasitic anti-Zionist group in Israeli society. Most of them don't work or serve in the army. " Yes, I agree.

- arnon

January 15, 2011 at 6:06pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"Their ideas about conversion are an insult to the rest of Jewry. " These are ideas that are part of Judaic law for at least 3000 years. So I guess what you are saying is that Orthodox conversion is an insult to the rest of Jewry. "Their behavior has polarized Jewish society." Not at all. What has polarized Jewish society is: 1. Israel's existence 2. Israel's defensive measures against the Palestinians. 3. The fact that there is a Law of Return that relies on Jewish ancestry but does not make it absolutely clear who is a Jew in Israel's law. 4. Israel's lousy election system which allows small parties like the Orthodox parties to maximize their gains as they choose which coalition to join. "It is time to cut off their welfare payments and other subsidies from the government." It is time to change the election systems so that they can begin to understand their relative small numbers in Israeli society and adapt, accordingly. " No, they should not be allowed separate no-go areas." There are no such "no go areas". This is pure and simple slander. The chassidim are not armed, do not theaten policemen. You make Mea Shearim and Bene Brak sound like some Muslim suburbs in Paris or London. Give me a bloody break. " They must either assimilate into majority Jewish society or leave Israel." Sounds very Voltairian to me. Leave Israel? Really? Where to? Germany? Europe? Have you come under Helen Thomas's influence? And it's Lieberman who is a near fascist, eh?

- noga1

January 15, 2011 at 8:17pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"Their ideas about conversion are an insult to the rest of Jewry. " “These are ideas that are part of Judaic law for at least 3000 years. So I guess what you are saying is that Orthodox conversion is an insult to the rest of Jewry.” The orthodox ideas about conversion originated with the Prophet Ezra who lived about 2,500 years ago (Circa 450 BCE). His ideas were controversial even in his own day. The biblical book of Ruth may have been an answer to Ezra’s decrees. In modern times ideas differed in different countries and with the introduction of Reform and then conservative Judaism in the west the requirements for conversion also went through some changes. In Israel Ben Gurion, unfortunately gave the Orthodox Rabbinate the right to supervise conversion requirements and this did as amidut rightly says splinter the Jewish community in Israel. Many Jews in the US and elsewhere were rightly alienated by the orthodox monopoly on conversion as they don’t recognize conversions supervised by conservative and reform Rabbis. Most strictly orthodox Jews in Israel live on handouts from the State and from fellow Jews. The State should stop supporting these ungrateful schleps. Non-orthodox Jews don’t owe them a living. This isn’t a Voltarian notion, it’s common sense. A majority ultra-Orthodox Israel will not be able to defend itself against attacks by its enemies nor will they create enough wealth in order to keep even a lower middle class style going. At best they will become like Shtetl Jews subject to attacks by its enemies and eventual displacement. One who admires the achievements of the Zionists should think long and hard before they decide to support orthodox religious doctrine in the realm of politics and civil society.

- arnon

January 15, 2011 at 9:23pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Arnon: The history you provide does not justify your earlier fulmination that "Their ideas about conversion are an insult to the rest of Jewry." I also note that the idea of expelling the Haredim from Israel is now missing from your comment. Does that mean you reconsidered your original impulse? Israel is a democracy and any solution for the Haredi sector has to be contrived within the democratic ethos. You last comment did not appear to be very democratic. And you would not be making it about the Arab sector. BTW, you completely forget that 50% of the Haredim, that is, the women, are educated and productive members of Israel's society. Here is one example: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/business/israel-s-hi-tech-future-haredi-women-1.312839

- noga1

January 15, 2011 at 9:51pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/business/israel-s-hi-tech-future-haredi-women-1.312839 http://taubcenter.org.il/index.php/tag/employment/lang/en/ "Who is not employed in Israel? Conventional wisdom is that the issue begins and ends with the ultra-Orthodox Jews (haredim) and Israeli Arabs. Rates of non-employment among these population groups are indeed high. However most of Israel’s population is neither haredi nor Arab. As shown in Figure 3, even after controlling for the two groups, the 15.1 percent non-employment rate among non-haredi Jewish men is still higher by over one-quarter than the OECD average rate of 11.9 percent. This reflects a substantial difference between a large part of the Israeli society and much of the West in the ability to cope successfully in a modern and competitive economy. The picture differs considerably for non-haredi Jewish women, where the 21.2 percent non-employment rate is considerably lower than the 32 percent average for women in OECD countries."

- noga1

January 15, 2011 at 9:54pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3837822,00.html "What's making the minister of industry, trade and labor so happy these days? "It's such a pleasure to visit Modiin Illit, to enter the office and see 1,400 haredi women working in front of computers and another 300 answering telephones," said Binyamin Ben-Eliezer (Labor) Thursday during a speech at the annual congress of the Manufacturers Association of Israel in Airport City. Ben-Eliezer, who spoke of his ministry's efforts to recruit Arabs and haredim into the workforce, was referring of course to the joy he feels as the minister responsible for employment, due to the fact that the women work at all. "

- noga1

January 15, 2011 at 9:56pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

“Arnon: The history you provide does not justify your earlier fulmination that "Their ideas about conversion are an insult to the rest of Jewry."” I didn’t say the above, though I agreed with its sentiment. “I also note that the idea of expelling the Haredim from Israel is now missing from your comment. Does that mean you reconsidered your original impulse?” You are confusing me with someone else, Noga. You think that anyone who disagrees with you must agree with everyone who also disagrees with you. This is absurd. “Israel is a democracy and any solution for the Haredi sector has to be contrived within the democratic ethos. You last comment did not appear to be very democratic. And you would not be making it about the Arab sector.” What was my last comment? I said that the way to deal with the Haredi is to stop giving them welfare checks, and yes that would apply to Israeli Arabs who refuse to work also. “BTW, you completely forget that 50% of the Haredim, that is, the women, are educated and productive members of Israel's society.” I doubt that this is true. Of the other 50 percent how many are older women and young girls unable to work, or pregnant or having to take care of their her young ones? That leaves what 15 to 25 percent of women free to work? The examples you provide are not encouraging. If you love Israel and want it to thrive as a free and democratic Jewish State you have to take the fact that a large Haredi community will not be willing or able to sustain its defense and productivity. Haredim have a social structure best suited to the galut were they live under the protection of some benevolent non-Jewish system of values. In this I agree with amidut.

- arnon

January 15, 2011 at 10:22pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

When I said, "Their behavior has polarized Jewish society.", I was concerned that ultra-Orthodox Jewish zealotry only succeeds in convincing many Jews and others that rabbinic Judaism has little worthwhile to say to modern people. I believe that classical Judaism is a great heritage, but many halachic dicta, formulated in ancient times, under different conditions, are not relevant to the needs of the Jewish people today. We do not honor that tradition by slavishly obeying every ritual commandment. After all, the Talmud was created, in part, to smooth over the often harsh regulations found in the Torah. And liberal rabbis today, as well as their ultra-orthodox colleagues, continue to write responsa to questions from Jews about faith and practice. "arnon" provided the good example of the Book of Ruth as a liberal perspective that can be found in rabbinic Jewish scripture. Also, new conditions have been created by renewed Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel. There are hundreds of thousands of (mostly Russian) Jews who are not halachically Jewish. They are mostly Jewish patriots and good citizens. There are also many Gentiles who, whether out of religious conviction, a desire to join the Jewish people, or desire to normalize the status of their Israeli families, wish to convert to Judaism. None of these people and their families should continue to be humiliated by religious racists (mostly Ashkenazim, I am sorry to say) in the ultra-Orthodox community. That is contrary to the interests of the state of the Jewish people. It is time to take control of Jewish religious conversion, marriage, and other life-cycle rituals back from the Haredim. It is time to take noxious religious fanaticism out of the regulation of civil matters, like public transport. I remember Rabbi Saul Berman, supposedly a moderate Orthodox rabbi, telling an audience at the 92nd St Y that if we can no longer be certain of the halachic Jewishness of many individuals because of un-frum conversions, then we will have to become a "card-carrying people", with ID cards containing attestations from recognized authorities certifying our Jewishness. I was appalled. Renewed Jewish sovereignty has, thankfully, changed many other conditions of the Jewish people's life. The ultra-Orthodox Judaism of the Galut has little of anything useful to say about running a modern state that professes liberal values. It can tell us nothing about statecraft and diplomacy. Just as modern Japanese can admire their medieval samurai from a safe historical distance, so too we can admire our ancient kings, prophets, and rabbinic sages and draw appropriate lessons from our historical myths. Noga is correct in asserting that political reform is better, more profound, way to resolve this crisis. But, until that happens, other measures will be needed.

- amidut

January 15, 2011 at 10:36pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Arnon: I do not know how you so quickly jumped to the conclusion that I am a "rightwing extremist". there is allegedly a small space on earth for contrarians who do not bear allegiance to any rigid political agenda or ideology despite being registered Democrats. even in TNR. end of message to Arnon. What Peretz describes sounds like Borough Park, Brooklyn, amongst the many enclaves that make Brooklyn a geo-ethnic mosaic. Or some towns in Rockland County, NY. Peretz's discomfort with the ultra-Orthodox in Israel goes way beyond the legitimate issues described by amidut. I am so secular that they would probably stone me, but I accept the reality of the Israeli population and try to be respectful in understanding the diversity. Since I can not prove my matrilineal descent, I do wish Israel would straighten out the qualifications for Aliyah fo me, just in case a miracle happens and I escape my real estate torture chambers in America. (That would be about the nearly paralyzed sales markets that seems related to extreme paranoia by mortgage lenders since new regulations went into effect in 2010.)

- K2K

January 16, 2011 at 12:04am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"Arnon: I do not know how you so quickly jumped to the conclusion that I am a "rightwing extremist". there is allegedly a small space on earth for contrarians who do not bear allegiance to any rigid political agenda or ideology despite being registered Democrats. even in TNR. end of message to Arnon." K2K, I didn't jump to any conclusions. You comments about the shooting of the Congresswoman and subsequent comments here are the product of a right wing poster. The situation in Israel is not similar to that in Borough Park. The Poeple in that district are not supported by the government.

- arnon

January 16, 2011 at 12:13am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

I liked Peretz's post a lot and for the most part the posts on this thread. Very interesting. Arnon, I have not seen your posts before here but I enjoyed them on this thread. Amidut's post of 01/15/2011 - 10:36pm EDT is excellent. Finally, to my mind, the thrust of Peretz's post transcends the picayune caviling about this or that detail or slice of schism that he might not have gotten entirely correct and also that the ratio of his post is taken up in the line of argument in this thread exemplified by the posts of Arnon, Amidut and like minded others.

- basman

January 16, 2011 at 2:24am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

p.s. I also wanted to mention specifically how much I liked and agree with Karen Gulotta's post above just I typicaly like Lawrence Gulotta's posts, agree or disagree as the case may be.

- basman

January 16, 2011 at 2:46am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"You are confusing me with someone else, Noga. " Yes, it looks like I turned my firepower on you, arnon, when it was amidut who said the things I quoted. Sorry about that. I agree with your ideas about conversion and even beyond, actually. As a student of converso history I am always amazed how far Judaism can survive even when every thing else is gone, even 500 years after the forced conversion. So I realize that halachic law is not necessarily the element that keeps a family's Jewishness alive. I think Judaism ought to be more easily available to anyone who expresses a wish to join the Jewish people, for one reason or another, as long as that reason is sincere and genuine. Since the issue is most fiercely being debated in Israel, then I suppose it really does become a constitutional issue and a matter to be settled by law in which all Israelis will have something to say. I imagine a campaign of public education that relies on history, ethics and philosophy before any such basic law is written, as far away from the haggling of politicians as possible.

- noga1

January 16, 2011 at 7:04am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Here is an example about what I mean. It is the story of Horacio Calle, Professor of Anthropology at the University of Javeriana, in Bogotá, Colombia. He found out a few years ago that his family, which has been dwelling in Columbia for the last three hundred years, was of converso extraction. He tells us: “That same day I went to visit an old aunt of mine and I asked her if she had any knowledge about our being descendants of Jews, as a family. And she told me, very easily, that since her early, childhood she had listened to conversation within the family, that we were Jews- Since then I got a fever, a very high one at that, and for the past three years I have been doing everything I can to discover my distant but very much felt Sephardic identity. I do not think I will ever be able to find a secret envelope, very old and written in Hebrew and passed from generation to generation, stating that we are Jews. No, I have been able to trace my genealogy all the way, back to the early 17th century when my ancestors came from Spain. The first thing they did was to change their last names, a typical anusim policy to avoid problems with the inquisition. Their last names were Perez de la Calle, and Lopez de Restrepo. Now I am only, Calle Restrepo. The Lopez is on my mother's side and I have been told that we were Levi, from Toledo. I do not know. But now I do understand why my maternal grandmother who taught me my first "Catholic" prayers used ones that made no mention of saints at all, but only of one almighty God. Those were prayers written by fray Luis de Leon, a converso who had problems with the inquisition in Spain....”

- noga1

January 16, 2011 at 7:30am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Hmm. It looks like I addressed my comment to the wrong poster, again. It's not arnon, it's amidut I was responding to.

- noga1

January 16, 2011 at 7:44am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"I realize that halachic law is not necessarily the element that keeps a family's Jewishness alive. I think Judaism ought to be more easily available to anyone who expresses a wish to join the Jewish people, for one reason or another, as long as that reason is sincere and genuine." I agree.

- arnon

January 16, 2011 at 9:03am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

wow, the qualification for "rightwing extremist" is someone who does not join the chorus line of the left, no evidence required. no place for anyone to pose a different thought without being verbally tarred and feathered. Peretz starts this blogpost "the issue of residential segregation in Israel", and somehow my citing the self-imposed residential segregation of ultra-Orthodox Jews in locations like Borough Park Brooklyn is NOT relevant, and "rightwing"?? The intolerance of the left still surprises me. I keep thinking a "liberal" includes being open-minded.

- K2K

January 16, 2011 at 12:25pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

K2K “wow, the qualification for "rightwing extremist" is someone who does not join the chorus line of the left, no evidence required.” Like most right wingers you are deaf and dumb to evidence, or just plain daft. Your extremism is evident in most of the puerile comments you post. It’s also in evidence in your refusing to own up to what you say. Reminds me of Rich said in the NY Times about these extremists: “For macabre absurdity, it would seem hard to top Newt Gingrich, who wailed about leftists linking Loughner to the right as if he had not famously blamed a psychotic double-murder of 1994, Susan Smith’s drowning of her two sons in South Carolina, on “Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society.” But Representative Trent Franks, Republican of Arizona, did top Newt. On “Meet the Press” last Sunday he implored us to “treat each other as fellow children of God” without acknowledging (or being questioned about) his 2009 diatribe branding Obama as “an enemy of humanity.”” http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/opinion/16rich.html?hp If these folk were honest they would acknowledge their dark views and not try to erase its history. As for K2K or K3K he first said that he didn’t care what I said about his comments and now keeps trying to deny what he said in the last three posts. He is a about as honest as Newt or Franks or any other rightwinger.

- arnon

January 16, 2011 at 12:48pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"Yes, it looks like I turned my firepower on you" Such grandiosity, and so disproportionate to the reality. LOL

- roidubouloi

January 16, 2011 at 1:20pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

basman, I am trying to find the Karen Gulotta post to which you refer and I don't find it. Can you help out?

- roidubouloi

January 16, 2011 at 1:24pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"As for K2K or K3K he first said that he didn’t care what I said about his comments and now keeps trying to deny what he said in the last three posts." Welcome, arnon. It is lovely to have some new voices here. You will discover that this is a typical gambit by those here who detest what you have to say. They will repeatedly insist that you must be ignored before they proceed, often with the lapse of seconds, to address themselves to you and, often, to attack you. I hope have a thick skin because I hope you will hang around to enliven our discussions.

- roidubouloi

January 16, 2011 at 1:30pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"They will repeatedly insist that you must be ignored before they proceed, often with the lapse of seconds, to address themselves to you and, often, to attack you. I hope have a thick skin because I hope you will hang around to enliven our discussions." Kvetch baby, kvetch.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 16, 2011 at 1:38pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

When I'm kvetching, makover, you will know. This is a public service announcement, giving arnon a heads up about what he can expect from the lot of you.

- roidubouloi

January 16, 2011 at 1:40pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"When I'm kvetching, makover, you will know" I do.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 16, 2011 at 1:43pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

I have lost count, makover, of the number of times I have been able to twit you for insisting that I should be ignored before you proceed (often as I said above with the lapse of mere seconds) to ignore your own admonition. I love doing that!, and I look forward with glee to the next such opportunity.

- roidubouloi

January 16, 2011 at 1:43pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

You are the source of endless fun, makover. Dealing with certain others of your persuasion is too often a grim chore. But not you. You provide many opportunities for delight.

- roidubouloi

January 16, 2011 at 1:45pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

yeah, just what we need: more personal attacks on commenters who do not follow the chorus line of the left. President Obama wasted his breath on Wednesday, calling for civil discourse. Arnon: you can post whatever you want, but I refuse to be falsely labelled as a "rightwing extremist" by anyone. BTW, you appear to be the last person in America who still thinks Loughner was mostly under the influence of rightwing rhetoric. Congratulations on being adopted by roid. I think this would be a good time for noga to re-post that tasty bit of roidrhetoric...so arnon will understand the company he keeps. The Tunisia story is unfolding in a fascinating way - seems a few WikiLeaks cables had an impact on the revolution against, in part, the corruption of their former ruler. oops, I better not comment until ALL the facts are in...

- K2K

January 16, 2011 at 1:46pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

PLOroid: I am glad I can help in your mental therapy.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 16, 2011 at 1:58pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"Arnon: you can post whatever you want, but I refuse to be falsely labelled as a "rightwing extremist" by anyone." K, your posts label you right wing. I merely called attention to them. "BTW, you appear to be the last person in America who still thinks Loughner was mostly under the influence of rightwing rhetoric." Really? I thought Rich of the NY Times said as much. It's precisely the mentally ill who are the more susceptible to being influenced by extremist rhetoric of whatever kind.

- arnon

January 16, 2011 at 2:07pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"Arnon: you can post whatever you want, but I refuse to be falsely labelled as a "rightwing extremist" by anyone." K, your posts label you right wing. I merely called attention to them. "BTW, you appear to be the last person in America who still thinks Loughner was mostly under the influence of rightwing rhetoric." Really? I thought Rich of the NY Times said as much. It's precisely the mentally ill who are the more susceptible to being influenced by extremist rhetoric of whatever kind.

- arnon

January 16, 2011 at 2:07pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

I think Rich's explanation of the complex relationship between media and extremism and craziness was pretty much definitive. There remain plenty of us in America who are not in the slightest cowed by the defensive blitz by the right of its extremist rhetoric and are still able to see clearly the connections between Loughner's acts and the incitement to violence emanating from the right.

- roidubouloi

January 16, 2011 at 2:18pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Roi here it is again. It's signed by Karen Gullota at its end: ________________________________________________________ 01/15/2011 - 4:51pm EDT | LawrenceGulotta Kudos to Marty for one of his better columns. The influence of the Ultra Orthodox is clearly reducing freedom for other Jews in Israel. Today Anat Hoffman, Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center and Director of Women of the Wall, spoke in Brooklyn on Pluralism within Judaism in Jerusalem (pluralism not being a word that exists in modern Hebrew.) She is facing a 50 year felony charge for carrying a Torah to the women's section of the Wall, which is not against halacha, but rather against custom. Women may not hold the Torah or wear fringed pray shawls like men, at the Western Wall on the grounds that it might "disrupt public order." Although men and women can be seen wors ... view full comment Kudos to Marty for one of his better columns. The influence of the Ultra Orthodox is clearly reducing freedom for other Jews in Israel. Today Anat Hoffman, Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center and Director of Women of the Wall, spoke in Brooklyn on Pluralism within Judaism in Jerusalem (pluralism not being a word that exists in modern Hebrew.) She is facing a 50 year felony charge for carrying a Torah to the women's section of the Wall, which is not against halacha, but rather against custom. Women may not hold the Torah or wear fringed pray shawls like men, at the Western Wall on the grounds that it might "disrupt public order." Although men and women can be seen worshiping together in historic pictures of the wall (see http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/AABR001138.html), the domination by the black hats has prevented this in modern times. Reformed Jewish rabbis have no recognition in Israel - not even the recognition accorded to a Karaite hakham or Greek Orthodox priest. They may not be paid as Orthodox rabbis are and it is quite difficult to obtain buildings for synagogues. Only Netanyahu's fear of losing American military dollars if American Jews prevented amendment to the Law of Return that would have denied entry to Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist converts or Jews who could not legally prove their Judaism (difficult coming from a country where birth certificates are not labeled by religion.) As it is, marriages of non-Orthodox Jews must take place outside of Israel. According to Hoffman, many liberal or secular Israeli's are more terrified of the Ultra Orthodox on a daily basis than the Arabs. Women are beat up for exercising their legal right to sit in the front of public busses. Even Modern Orthodox couples have been set upon by Hassidic mobs while walking together. Karen Gulotta ________________________________________________________________

- basman

January 16, 2011 at 3:32pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Roi here it is again. It's signed by Karen Gullota at its end: ________________________________________________________ 01/15/2011 - 4:51pm EDT | LawrenceGulotta Kudos to Marty for one of his better columns. The influence of the Ultra Orthodox is clearly reducing freedom for other Jews in Israel. Today Anat Hoffman, Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center and Director of Women of the Wall, spoke in Brooklyn on Pluralism within Judaism in Jerusalem (pluralism not being a word that exists in modern Hebrew.) She is facing a 50 year felony charge for carrying a Torah to the women's section of the Wall, which is not against halacha, but rather against custom. Women may not hold the Torah or wear fringed pray shawls like men, at the Western Wall on the grounds that it might "disrupt public order." Although men and women can be seen wors ... view full comment Kudos to Marty for one of his better columns. The influence of the Ultra Orthodox is clearly reducing freedom for other Jews in Israel. Today Anat Hoffman, Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center and Director of Women of the Wall, spoke in Brooklyn on Pluralism within Judaism in Jerusalem (pluralism not being a word that exists in modern Hebrew.) She is facing a 50 year felony charge for carrying a Torah to the women's section of the Wall, which is not against halacha, but rather against custom. Women may not hold the Torah or wear fringed pray shawls like men, at the Western Wall on the grounds that it might "disrupt public order." Although men and women can be seen worshiping together in historic pictures of the wall (see http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/AABR001138.html), the domination by the black hats has prevented this in modern times. Reformed Jewish rabbis have no recognition in Israel - not even the recognition accorded to a Karaite hakham or Greek Orthodox priest. They may not be paid as Orthodox rabbis are and it is quite difficult to obtain buildings for synagogues. Only Netanyahu's fear of losing American military dollars if American Jews prevented amendment to the Law of Return that would have denied entry to Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist converts or Jews who could not legally prove their Judaism (difficult coming from a country where birth certificates are not labeled by religion.) As it is, marriages of non-Orthodox Jews must take place outside of Israel. According to Hoffman, many liberal or secular Israeli's are more terrified of the Ultra Orthodox on a daily basis than the Arabs. Women are beat up for exercising their legal right to sit in the front of public busses. Even Modern Orthodox couples have been set upon by Hassidic mobs while walking together. Karen Gulotta ________________________________________________________________

- basman

January 16, 2011 at 3:32pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Roi here it is again. It's signed by Karen Gullota at its end: ________________________________________________________ 01/15/2011 - 4:51pm EDT | LawrenceGulotta Kudos to Marty for one of his better columns. The influence of the Ultra Orthodox is clearly reducing freedom for other Jews in Israel. Today Anat Hoffman, Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center and Director of Women of the Wall, spoke in Brooklyn on Pluralism within Judaism in Jerusalem (pluralism not being a word that exists in modern Hebrew.) She is facing a 50 year felony charge for carrying a Torah to the women's section of the Wall, which is not against halacha, but rather against custom. Women may not hold the Torah or wear fringed pray shawls like men, at the Western Wall on the grounds that it might "disrupt public order." Although men and women can be seen wors ... view full comment Kudos to Marty for one of his better columns. The influence of the Ultra Orthodox is clearly reducing freedom for other Jews in Israel. Today Anat Hoffman, Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center and Director of Women of the Wall, spoke in Brooklyn on Pluralism within Judaism in Jerusalem (pluralism not being a word that exists in modern Hebrew.) She is facing a 50 year felony charge for carrying a Torah to the women's section of the Wall, which is not against halacha, but rather against custom. Women may not hold the Torah or wear fringed pray shawls like men, at the Western Wall on the grounds that it might "disrupt public order." Although men and women can be seen worshiping together in historic pictures of the wall (see http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/AABR001138.html), the domination by the black hats has prevented this in modern times. Reformed Jewish rabbis have no recognition in Israel - not even the recognition accorded to a Karaite hakham or Greek Orthodox priest. They may not be paid as Orthodox rabbis are and it is quite difficult to obtain buildings for synagogues. Only Netanyahu's fear of losing American military dollars if American Jews prevented amendment to the Law of Return that would have denied entry to Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist converts or Jews who could not legally prove their Judaism (difficult coming from a country where birth certificates are not labeled by religion.) As it is, marriages of non-Orthodox Jews must take place outside of Israel. According to Hoffman, many liberal or secular Israeli's are more terrified of the Ultra Orthodox on a daily basis than the Arabs. Women are beat up for exercising their legal right to sit in the front of public busses. Even Modern Orthodox couples have been set upon by Hassidic mobs while walking together. Karen Gulotta ________________________________________________________________

- basman

January 16, 2011 at 3:32pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

I did it twice just to make sure you didn't miss it: :-)

- basman

January 16, 2011 at 3:33pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

...."Yes, it looks like I turned my firepower on you" Such grandiosity, and so disproportionate to the reality. LOL.. I'll see your grandiosity and inflated self delusion and raise you one "physcian heal thy self" plus a black pot and kettle. ,,,Molly: You are indeed silly and incredibly lazy, prejudiced, ignorant and coarse minded. You wouldn't know what truth looks like if it came and bit your nose off...

- basman

January 16, 2011 at 3:43pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

..."Yes, it looks like I turned my firepower on you" Such grandiosity, and so disproportionate to the reality. LOL.. Gee whiz, I notice the same thing, but am much too shy to comment on it.

- basman

January 16, 2011 at 4:02pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Thanks, basman. That is indeed an excellent post. I had not heard of the case of Anat Hoffman. I am amazed. Even for the wannabe theocrats this seems completely over the top. I would have expected disorderly conduct at most. What's next? Stoning?

- roidubouloi

January 16, 2011 at 4:05pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Gullotta: "According to Hoffman, many liberal or secular Israeli's are more terrified of the Ultra Orthodox on a daily basis than the Arabs. Women are beat up for exercising their legal right to sit in the front of public busses. Even Modern Orthodox couples have been set upon by Hassidic mobs while walking together." Roi: "...indeed an excellent post." Roi is indeed a credible judge of such vituperation, considering his own view of reality in America: "What Obama was most unprepared for is the reality that the enemies of America are not just the Iranians, Moslem terrorists, the Chinese, and such, but the entire American right... "Every last one of them is an enemy of the United States of America, happy intentionally to damage the nation for the purpose of unseating Obama, happy to side with our enemies and make our problems, such as unemployment, worse for the purpose of unseating Obama, even willing to declare that the purpose of power in the hands of the Republican party is not to address the problems of the nation but to unseat Obama. And what they will do for personal greed is unspeakable. They are enemies. We are in a life and death struggle with them for the future of our nation, or whether it even has much of a future. Traitors, scoundrels, liars and thieves one and all." ______________ Here is a vid of Anat being "roughed up" by Israeli police: http://religion.lohudblogs.com/2010/10/15/female-activist-arrested-at-western-wall-to-speak-in-scarsdale/ I'm a little familiar with the women who populate this movement. A former prof of mine is one of their leaders, herself an orthodox Jew. I never found the cause of interest enough to investigate more deeply. It is really an intra Jewish orthodox issue being played out on an Israeli stage. It could be somewhat, though not quite, compared to Catholic women wishing to be ordained as priests.

- noga1

January 16, 2011 at 4:58pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Noga loves to quote me while leaving off the next paragraph in which I call for rhetorical contest with the right. But events have overtaken much of the distinction because we now have a Republican leader in Arizona resigning because of threats to his person by the extremist right. While I spoke metaphorically about a life and death struggle, the savages of the right, including noga, have made this literal. Now, as to the matter at hand, has Hoffman lied about women being beaten up for sitting in the front of public buses? Have Modern Orthodox couples been set upon by Hassidim while walking together? Noga does not say whether we should regard Hoffman's words as truth or not. I expressed no opinion on that question having no basis upon which to judge, But noga, ever the propagandist, wishes to imply that Hoffman is lying and that I endorse her lie without ever so much as offering us any other facts. Typical.

- roidubouloi

January 16, 2011 at 5:24pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"I expressed no opinion on that question having no basis upon which to judge, " This quote: "According to Hoffman, many liberal or secular Israeli's are more terrified of the Ultra Orthodox on a daily basis than the Arabs. Women are beat up for exercising their legal right to sit in the front of public busses. Even Modern Orthodox couples have been set upon by Hassidic mobs while walking together." appears in the post that roi, unambiguously and without qualification defined as: "...indeed an excellent post." Does anyone get a sense of roi suspending judgment or expressing some doubt about the contents of that post? Once again, roi speaks precipitously, all eager to curry favour with another poster, to the point where he is willing to endorse a post as "excellent" which he has not even paused to verify or even absorb its contents. Maybe roi misspoke, yet again? Perhaps he can even provide some source to verify that women in Israel get, regularly or even irregularly, beaten up when they board buses? I once knew a woman, who would be 80 years old today, who told me that when she was newly engaged (60 years ago?), she and her young man were walking through Me'a Shearim, holding hands, as someone from one of the balconies emptied a bucket of dirty water over them. Perhaps things have progressed since then. After all, if I and my 9 year old daughter got to be called "pritzes" (whores) by Satmar Chassidim, their brethren that reside in the holy land are not likely to be as docile.

- noga1

January 16, 2011 at 5:47pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

The very first thing that I said was that I had not previously heard of the case of Anat Hoffman. That seems a pretty clear statement that I have no knowledge other than what I had just read. On what basis then would I be endorsing the factual claims made there? Noga is very challenged in the English language. She does not understand common English declarative statements. I don't know whether she has these problems in Hebrew too, but she regularly twists her misunderstandings in order to make false attributions to others. Here we have but one more instance in a very long line. What I do know, just from reading here, is that there is discussion in Israel about religiously segregated buses and the rules that might be applied to permit them. One of those proposed rules is to prohibit coercion or violence. Usually people don't bother discussing laws against something when there is no factual referent, that is, no previous experience with that which is to be prohibited. We can thus infer the likelihood that there have been some such problems. Maybe not, maybe so. Shall we investigate? Okay, didn't take long thanks to the miracle of the internet: From ARZA - Another Incident of Haredi Violence Against Women! By Rabbi Heidi Cohen, on May 14th, 2010 http://www.tbsoc.com/blog/2010/05/from-arza-another-incident-of-haredi-violence-against-women/ Seems that the haredim in Israel do get more carried away than simply calling women whores. Next. (Noga is a self-declared feminist. She would do better as a self-declared hypocrite.)

- roidubouloi

January 16, 2011 at 6:24pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Karen Gullotta: "According to Hoffman, many liberal or secular Israeli's are more terrified of the Ultra Orthodox on a daily basis than the Arabs. Women are beat up for exercising their legal right to sit in the front of public busses. Even Modern Orthodox couples have been set upon by Hassidic mobs while walking together." basman: "p.s. I also wanted to mention specifically how much I liked and agree with Karen Gulotta's post above..." Roi: "...indeed an excellent post." ___________________ roi, trying to cleanse the sheretz: "The very first thing that I said was that I had not previously heard of the case of Anat Hoffman." Earlier, roi: "I had not heard of the case of Anat Hoffman. I am amazed. Even for the wannabe theocrats this seems completely over the top. I would have expected disorderly conduct at most. What's next? Stoning?" _______________ Does anyone get the impression that roi is being tentative or cautious about believing the contents of Gullotta's post when he affirms: "I had not heard of the case of Anat Hoffman. I am amazed. Even for the wannabe theocrats this seems completely over the top. I would have expected disorderly conduct at most. What's next? Stoning?"

- noga1

January 16, 2011 at 6:53pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

I suspect that Karen Gullotta must have gotten ever-so-slightly carried away by the force of her own verbosity. It goes to show how easy it is today for anyone to claim anything about any Israeli and there will always be a responsive audience to endorse and cheer it along.

- noga1

January 16, 2011 at 9:25pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3831223,00.html " According to her, "Now they need to decide whether to recommend that an indictment be issued against me for offenses ascribed to me. Their punishment is a few months in prison or a fine of NIS 10,000 (about $2,670). But because I don't intend to pay such a sum, somebody may have to put up with me in Neve Tirza (Prison)."

- noga1

January 16, 2011 at 9:45pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Or course, when noga makes a factual claim about anything, I assume that it is not true and, if the matter of interest to me, I check. More often than not, her factual claims are wrong. I will admit, however, that when someone says something about which I don't have direct or general knowledge, I don't generally assume that they are making an incorrect or unsupported claim. I did express my amazement and that this seemed excessive. Apparently, it is and the claim was a gross overstatement. I am happy to learn that the report of the severity of Israeli law in this regard was not inaccurate. I am sure noga is equally happy to learn that she was incorrect in her supposition that there is not in fact violence by haredim against people whose religious (or non-religious) practice offends them. She is always eager to excuse without evidence anything done in Israel or by Israelis that is offensive to our moral sensibilities. Even evidence doesn't move her much, whereas I am always happy to admit error. Although the law in Israel is not as extreme as reported by Karen Gulotta, the articles linked by noga make clear that women reading from the Torah at the Western Wall would in fact be a criminal offense. That is shameful enough, even if it is not a felony with a potential penalty of 50 years in prison.

- roidubouloi

January 17, 2011 at 12:15am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

I'll qualify my agreement with karen Gulotta's post to the extent of her overstatement. Otherwise, my liking of and agreement with it strongly stand especially in contrast with the mindless caterwauling in the posts of certain folks here. I'll bow to no one in my disgust with and animus towards the extreme religious right in Israel. I remember about 15 years ago walking through Mea Shearim with my then nine year old daughter who was wearing a dress that didn't cover her legs. We innocently nearly caused a riot and had to construct a makeshift something to cover her legs while we walked through to avoid trouble. And then I remember getting into a conversation with one of the local, whackadoo geniuses who protested the existence of the Israeli state and wanted it destroyed, loss of life notwithstanding, including kids who had no agency in living therel. His fanaticism simply overwhelmed my vociferousness and occasional love of an argument and left me speechless. I believe it was my first experience with such outright, uunreasoning, nihilistic fanaticism. It blew my mind. And this: ...the articles linked by noga make clear that women reading from the Torah at the Western Wall would in fact be a criminal offense. That is shameful enough, even if it is not a felony with a potential penalty of 50 years in prison... What a fucking shanda! It's intersting to me, too, that someone who wants to discredit Karen's apparently overstated point, which it's okay to do, of course, has recourse to articles that make the criminal offence just noted above clear and then obtusely says in effect "So there!" Hey, I don't beat my wife, I just slap her around from time to time.

- basman

January 17, 2011 at 1:04am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

malahat: 'Er, could someone either provide a link to back up the assertion that this woman is facing a "50 year felony charge" for carrying a Torah to the women's section of the Wall", and how someone facing a "50 year felony charge" would be allowed out of the country to "(speak) in Brooklyn"?' Perhaps speaking in Brooklyn was part of the punishment?

- ironyroad

January 17, 2011 at 2:03am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"am sure noga is equally happy to learn that she was incorrect in her supposition that there is not in fact violence by haredim " I supposed nothing of the kind. Roi, and I defy you to find anywhere anything I said that denied the facts such as they are, not as Karen gullootta presents them, as if these were nationwide, common and daily things, somehow accepted by Israeli society. I too heard about such occurrences as mentioned in your link. In my comments I added some other things, as well. What I object to is the demonization of an entire population and the suggestion made by one poster here that they should be expelled from Israel. I don't have to like the ultra orthodox or accept anything from them, in order to be care about their basic rights in Israel. I put it to you, roi, that if a group of ultra religious Jews decided to break the status quo on the temple mount and insisted on praying next to Al Aksa , you would be the first to condemn them as provocateurs. If the activism of these women succeeds and a legal precedent established, that the rules of the place have to be changed because they infringe on their right for freedom of worship anywhere, what's to stop THAT from happening? What would be the difference then? I have very little doubt that you even bothered to think that far.

- noga1

January 17, 2011 at 6:38am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"Perhaps speaking in Brooklyn was part of the punishment?" I second that.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 17, 2011 at 6:51am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

noga: "What I object to is the demonization of an entire population and the suggestion made by one poster here that they should be expelled from Israel. I don't have to like the ultra orthodox or accept anything from them, in order to care about their basic rights in Israel." I second all of that. adding "their basic rights in Israel or anywhere else the ultra-Orthodox create a community, which includes Brooklyn." The vitriol that Peretz, and others, level against the ultra-Orthodox, and the Avigdor Lieberman-style secular nationalists does imply a furious wish that they all "disappear". How is that not extreme intolerance? This slippery slope to 'blasphemy against secularism' is not unlike the intolerance of Pakistan's constitutional law against blasphemy of Islam, or the recent fatwa from Egypt sanctioning jihad against "unbelievers" anywhere in the world: "...IN EGYPT, an extraordinarily important fatwa has been issued by Dr. Imad Mustafa, of al-Azhar University, the world’s most important Islamic university. He began by stating the well-known doctrine of “defensive jihad,” that is Muslims must go to war against infidels who attack them. Of course, the word “attack” is often spread rather thinly to justify aggression. But now Mustafa has publicly and explicitly come up with a new concept, one that up until now was supposedly restricted to groups like al-Qaida: “Then there is another type of fighting against the non- Muslims known as offensive jihad... which is to pursue the infidels into their own land without any aggression [on their part]... “Two schools [of Islamic jurisprudence] have ruled that offensive jihad is permissible in order to secure Islam’s border, to extend God’s religion to people in cases where the governments do not allow it, such as the Pharaoh did with the children of Israel, and to remove every religion but Islam from the Arabian peninsula.” ..." http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=203876 Now returning to my daily battle with accumulated snow on my roof, just so I can do it again after the new snowstrom on Tuesday. Really should get some snowshoes...

- K2K

January 17, 2011 at 7:48am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

K2K: I believe you are mistaken. They are not being "demonized" in Israel. They are portrayed as what they are; a community devoid of any national concept. All their loyalties are to their rabbis and to their own small, tribal community and therefore thoroughly undemocratic. The rabbis tell they how to vote, when to vote, for whom to vote. I agree with you that their rights in Israel should be protected but no more than the rights of secular community. Their monopoly on matrimonial issues such as marriage and divorces has to be broken. It is inconceivable that a modern, secular and democratic country will not have some sort of civil marriage law. It is inconceivable that women whose husbands whereabouts are not known (agunot) must linger in limbo for decades before being able to get married. Equally inconceivable is the requirement of get, a religious divorce decree. A women cannot get married without receiving a proper get and some men withhold it for decades as a pressure tactic. But the most egregious violation of the rights of the secular public is the Haredi blackmail of the political system which creates such unbalanced coalitions and budgets. In short, it is a long term disaster for Israel.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 17, 2011 at 8:47am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Ho, Ho Ho, Noga. You are once again a delightful sight with your foot so far down your throat that it is tickling your always over-excited spleen. ___________________ Karen Gullotta: According to Hoffman, many liberal or secular Israeli's are more terrified of the Ultra Orthodox on a daily basis than the Arabs. Women are beat up for exercising their legal right to sit in the front of public buses. Even Modern Orthodox couples have been set upon by Hassidic mobs while walking together. roi: An excellent post. Noga: Once again, roi speaks precipitously, all eager to curry favour with another poster, to the point where he is willing to endorse a post as "excellent" which he has not even paused to verify or even absorb its contents. Maybe roi misspoke, yet again? Perhaps he can even provide some source to verify that women in Israel get, regularly or even irregularly, beaten up when they board buses? I once knew a woman, who would be 80 years old today, who told me that when she was newly engaged (60 years ago?), she and her young man were walking through Me'a Shearim, holding hands, as someone from one of the balconies emptied a bucket of dirty water over them. Perhaps things have progressed since then. After all, if I and my 9 year old daughter got to be called "pritzes" (whores) by Satmar Chassidim, their brethren that reside in the holy land are not likely to be as docile. roi: Now, as to the matter at hand, has Hoffman lied about women being beaten up for sitting in the front of public buses? Have Modern Orthodox couples been set upon by Hassidim while walking together? Noga does not say whether we should regard Hoffman's words as truth or not. I expressed no opinion on that question having no basis upon which to judge. But noga, ever the propagandist, wishes to imply that Hoffman is lying and that I endorse her lie without ever so much as offering us any other facts. * * * Shall we investigate? Okay, didn't take long thanks to the miracle of the internet: From ARZA - Another Incident of Haredi Violence Against Women! By Rabbi Heidi Cohen, on May 14th, 2010 http://www.tbsoc.com/blog/2010/05/from-arza-another-incident-of-haredi-v... Seems that the haredim in Israel do get more carried away than simply calling women whores. * * * I am sure noga is equally happy to learn that she was incorrect in her supposition that there is not in fact violence by haredim against people whose religious (or non-religious) practice offends them. She is always eager to excuse without evidence anything done in Israel or by Israelis that is offensive to our moral sensibilities. Even evidence doesn't move her much, whereas I am always happy to admit error. noga: I supposed nothing of the kind. Roi, and I defy you to find anywhere anything I said that denied the facts such as they are, not as Karen gullootta presents them, as if these were nationwide, common and daily things, somehow accepted by Israeli society. I too heard about such occurrences as mentioned in your link. In my comments I added some other things, as well. What I object to is the demonization of an entire population and the suggestion made by one poster here that they should be expelled from Israel. _____________________ Oh, and we also have this from noga as she complains of insufficient investigation of Karen Gulotta's factual claims: "I'm a little familiar with the women who populate this movement. A former prof of mine is one of their leaders, herself an orthodox Jew. I never found the cause of interest enough to investigate more deeply. It is really an intra Jewish orthodox issue being played out on an Israeli stage. It could be somewhat, though not quite, compared to Catholic women wishing to be ordained as priests." The fun never stops with noga here at the Spine! Always something new in the manipulation of words for dishonest effect.

- roidubouloi

January 17, 2011 at 9:11am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"But the most egregious violation of the rights of the secular public is the Haredi blackmail of the political system which creates such unbalanced coalitions and budgets. In short, it is a long term disaster for Israel." Thanks Mokover, I was going to post something like it. The right wing K2K, doesn't get it. He is one of those "supporters" of Israel who is working against it. The Haredim don't care about the Jewish State and would rather live in a non-Jewish State under the "protection" of some gentile government. They haven’t learned anything from the history and fate of Jews in the last hundred years or so. Zionism scares them because it gives individual Jews "too much freedom" and the choice to live as a Jew but not under the authority of the Rebbe. This is an old fight. In Europe the Orthodox Rabbis opposed the new though limited freedoms offered to Jews for similar by the enlightenment governments. Even today, some Ultra-Orthodox Rebbes have denounced the Jewish State as treif. They seem to fear independent Jews more than antisemites. No wonder K2K confuses the problems with Orthodoxy in Israel with those in Brooklyn, though they are not similar at all. From an Orthodox point of view there is only one problem, 'how to keep male Jews in the Shul bent over their books and away from any books or ideas that would challenge their orthodoxy.'

- arnon

January 17, 2011 at 9:36am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

makover: "K2K: I believe you are mistaken. They are not being "demonized" in Israel. They are portrayed as what they are; a community devoid of any national concept." Makover: I agree with your statement in general terms but I think it is misleading to blame this: "Their monopoly on matrimonial issues such as marriage and divorces has to be broken. " on the Haredim. The law that assigns all cycle of life events to the religious authority is not due to Haredim, who are, as you say, mostly anti-Zionist. It has to do with historical mutual accommodation between Ben Gurion and the religious ZIONIST parties such as the Mafdal. This has formed a tradition and a necessity for each coalition to include religious parties that continue to insist on dominating the private lives of Israeli Jews and extort money for their institutions. It's a complicated system of relationships which even Sabras find hard to disentangle. But I repeat this: If the election system is reformed so that there will be no more small parties with greater leverage than their numbers and general contribution to the national effort to extract concessions. There has to be a general will of the people to demand and mobilize for this objective. But as you must know, Israelis weep and whinge but ultimately accept whatever is being meted out to them from the government, from increased taxes to taking away public transportation on Shabbat or closing down prosperous supermarkets because they are not kasher. They say: let's solve one big problem at a time and then we'll see. The current problem with the Palestinians has been dominating the public agenda to the exclusion of all else. Perhaps now that the I/P "peace process" is on hold and life is generally good in Israel, they realize that some problems can, or should be, dealt with simultaneously. 1 Million Godless Russians can surely tip the scale in favour of constitutionalized secularity on all levels. But then, those same Israelis who can actually bring about this change are being demonized in their own right, as being "Right wing nuts". So, what what else is new?

- noga1

January 17, 2011 at 12:47pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

noga: I agree with you that the "original sin" lies with Ben Gurion and the Mafdal. However, the the ultra orthodox have developed the Ministry of the Interior and the hated Ministry of Religious affairs into their fiefdom. They dominate it, they control and protect it and they will fight to the last Israeli to keep control of it. I also agree with you that Israelis kvetch a lot, however in this case you are wrong. The general will exists to change this law at least since I remember however Israeli election law and coalitional requirements give the religious parties a virtual veto. The "Russians" are demonized as "right wing nuts" by people who do not know them, who feel superior to them, don't understand their mentality and are prejudiced against them. Is Scharanski a "right wing nut"? I don't even think that Lieberman is a "nut", right-wing or other. I think that he is maybe less than diplomatic. Maybe too confrontational for European diplomatic circles. He is however liked and respected in Russia. Personally I don't like him either but to claim that he is a more of a nut than Yossi Sarid or Shulamit Aloni is a stretch.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 17, 2011 at 3:22pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

... I remember about 15 years ago walking through Mea Shearim with my then nine year old daughter... The mind is willing but the flesh and reality itself say no: it was 25 years ago.

- basman

January 17, 2011 at 3:40pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Makover: Israel needs a new party... :)

- noga1

January 17, 2011 at 3:44pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

noga: From your mouth to God's ears.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 17, 2011 at 3:50pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

arnon: I don't think that it is fair to say that K2K is "right wing". I have been reading his post here for a long time and I never got this impression. I would even call him "liberal" in the European meaning of the word. Again, I know him from his posts only but my impression is that he is far from being "right wing". BTW, on occasions I have been called "right wing nut" by PLOroid, whenever I disagreed with him.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 17, 2011 at 4:12pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"arnon: I don't think that it is fair to say that K2K is "right wing"." She is right wing when it comes to American politics and her support of the Israeli religious orthodox makes me think that she is right wing in that context also.

- arnon

January 17, 2011 at 4:26pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Makover: Israel needs a new party..." That would make how many new parties in the last 25 years. And didn't Ehud Barak just declare himself the chief of a new party? What Israel needs is party consolidation. They need fewer parties and higher voter threshold for getting into the Knesset.

- arnon

January 17, 2011 at 4:29pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"She is right wing when it comes to American politics and her support of the Israeli religious orthodox makes me think that she is right wing in that context also." K2K has this idea that democratic ethics and civil/human rights extend to all people even those Jews who offend one's sense of secular enlightenment. Nowhere has K2k expressed any identification with gender segregation or avowed any special affinity to Ultra Orthodox agenda. BTW, Non-Zionists and Anti-Zionists are usually affiliated very strongly with the rabid One-State-Solution Left. How come, then, K2K is a Right wing-nut and not a Leftwing nut? Just asking, like.

- noga1

January 17, 2011 at 4:40pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

My suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, considering that I have been complaining throughout this thread about the small parties with too much leverage. Seems like a powerful electromagnet has thrown the compass off its true north. That's what happens when people listen to themselves rather than to what other people write.

- noga1

January 17, 2011 at 4:43pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"My suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, considering that I have been complaining throughout this thread about the small parties with too much leverage." I was joking. Israel has parties coming out of the ... It needs another "Party of God" like it needs a hole in the head. Barak was never comfortable in the Labor. Too many generals. But now Labor is history. Fuad Ben Eliezer should join Kadima and the other pygmies like Peretz and Yahimovich should just go home.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 17, 2011 at 5:07pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

K2K: Oh those pesky Jews... "Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah said on Sunday that Israel sabatoged negotiations following the death of Hariri, and supports the destablization of his country."

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 17, 2011 at 5:09pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"Fuad Ben Eliezer should join Kadima" Fuad Ben Eliezer should lose weight and start exercising.

- noga1

January 17, 2011 at 5:13pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

How about a party of the ungodly?

- noga1

January 17, 2011 at 5:14pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

To all the indifferent mutitudes: that same-first-told-about 9 year old little girl, who after studying for and passing the Ontario bar exams, just found out today that she passed the Quebec bar exams, which she didn't have to take but took anyway to enable her to practice law in Quebec if she wants to. Why am I telling you, indifferent multitudes? I'm telling everybody!

- basman

January 17, 2011 at 6:11pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

She's partying in New York City as I sit here and type this and grind away at my own work. O' to be young and feeling fantastic till some shoe or other drops.

- basman

January 17, 2011 at 6:14pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"BTW, Non-Zionists and Anti-Zionists are usually affiliated very strongly with the rabid One-State-Solution Left. How come, then, K2K is a Right wing-nut and not a Leftwing nut? Just asking, like." Usually, doesn't mean always, and you better ask him about it.

- arnon

January 17, 2011 at 6:28pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"...other pygmies like Peretz and Yahimovich should just go home." I don't know Yahimovich, but Peretz is home. He helped build the State which is a lot more than his pigmy critics have done.

- arnon

January 17, 2011 at 6:31pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

arnon: I refer to Amir Peretz not Shimon Peres.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 17, 2011 at 6:38pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

thank you noga for "K2K has this idea that democratic ethics and civil/human rights extend to all people even those Jews who offend one's sense of secular enlightenment." and thank you makover. I really did not mean that the ultra-Orthodox should have the excessive political power that they seem to in Israel (one minor reason I can not make aliyah is the absence of proof of matrilineal descent, never having learned Hebrew is another problem), but there IS a pattern with Peretz that leads to thinking he wishes they would all disappear in order to restore what i once posted as something like 'his hazy memory of a secular Jewish paradise'. I try to take the world as it is, and save my utopian dreams for book. William Morris' "News from Nowhere" is still my favorite Utopian novel although I do think humans are actually headed to Margaret Drabble's Dystopia, "Oryx & Crake". I find it curious - and I know we have had threads in The Spine on this - how the secular left is SO uncomfortable with religious fundamentalists whether the Evangelical Protestants of America or the Ultra-Orthodox anywhere, with one exception: Muslims in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. About Hezbollah? what else is new? my current theory is that Hezbollah might be truly cornered, lest what I call "the Tunisia effect" lands in Lebanon. Mobs of educated, literate adults who have had enough! so, of course, Nasrallah has to blame Israel. He's got nothing else. Refuse the findings of the UN only serves to further weaken the UN, and then what would the Israel-bashers do? :) Here is my read of the week that submits a tentative frame for the (obvious to me) contradiction between transnational multi-culturalism we are allegedly living in (according to the Left) versus the devolution to tribal ethnicities from Belgium to Sudan:"Rise of the Hans" by Joel Kotkin 01/17/2011 http://www.newgeography.com/content/001994-rise-hans the newbie, arnon, bestowed his "rightwing extremist" label on me based on three comments I posted in three different threads last week, two on the horrific shooting in Tucson, and this thread. glad I am not on trial with him on the jury, especially since he has now decided I must be a woman :) Those reading this who are not American can use this as an example of how the Democratic Party loses support from lifelong Dems like me who can NOT be categorized, and do not like the intolerance of the left. well, more snow coming. I might actually be able to build an igloo by Wednesday! any incoherence is due to still being snowblind.

- K2K

January 17, 2011 at 6:44pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"Fuad Ben Eliezer should lose weight and start exercising." noga: That is a very, very mean thing to say. But oh, so right. On this happy note, I am going to bid you all, good night since tomorrow is another toiling day.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 17, 2011 at 6:48pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"O' to be young and feeling fantastic till some shoe or other drops." I am still paying alimonies for those feelings. But now really, I must lay my old decrepit body down.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 17, 2011 at 6:55pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"I find it curious - and I know we have had threads in The Spine on this - how the secular left is SO uncomfortable with religious fundamentalists whether the Evangelical Protestants of America or the Ultra-Orthodox anywhere, with one exception: Muslims in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria." Any rational person damn well ought to be uncomfortable with these nuts. They have only a tenuous relationship to the objective world and any of them is capable on a given day of justifying pretty much any depravity in the name of God. That wouldn't be so bad if they were content to practice their nuttery without trying to impose it on everyone else, but they are not. To the contrary, wherever the religious fundamentalist nuts manage to gain political power, the first thing they want to do is compel everyone to observe their religious practices. This is as true of the Jewish fundamentalists as of any others as the situation in Israel makes clear. The only reason they are not an oppressive presence in the US is that they have no power to be and we have laws about this sort of thing. As part of the secular left, I respect their right to practice their nutty faith in peace without being bothered or discriminated against. Kol ha-kavod. They, however, find it impossible to respect my right not to practice their nutty faith, and they usually become a danger to society as a result whenever they garner enough power.

- roidubouloi

January 17, 2011 at 8:39pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

"I find it curious - and I know we have had threads in The Spine on this - how the secular left is SO uncomfortable with religious fundamentalists whether the Evangelical Protestants of America or the Ultra-Orthodox anywhere, with one exception: Muslims in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria." The problem I have with Jewish orthodox has more to do with their inability to function in a pluralistic Jewish society and an inability to defend themselves against would be pogromists. In general though I have no problem with Jews, Christian or Muslims, but for different reasons I do have a problem with Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah, and the totalitarian left.

- arnon

January 17, 2011 at 8:43pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

K2K: "(one minor reason I can not make aliyah is the absence of proof of matrilineal descent,)" Many Russian Olim were accepted with only one Jewish parent and gender irrelevant. I personally know a few of them.

- noga1

January 17, 2011 at 9:27pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

Hey, Makover: You may find this latest installment by Ami Isseroff of interest, considering the substance and form certain issues have been discussed in this thread: http://www.zionism-israel.com/israel_news/2011/01/17/jewish-peoplehood-in-america/ (Word to the wise: Na'alayim konim maher vegarbayim lo chaser ach magafayim umichnasayim she'tamid konim complet kasheh meod le'hasig otam ka'et :)

- noga1

January 17, 2011 at 9:42pm

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

noga: my understanding is that Russian Olim were held to a different standard than today's standard for Americans. Not that it matters. I am trapped in America's real estate sluggishness. Speaking of religion, the Greenfield, MA Recorder newspaper reports that Israel's tourism operators now offering a 'retrace the footsteps of Virgin Mary' tour, and 69% of the 3.5 million tourists to Israel in 2010 were Christians. Correction: author of the dystopia "Oryx and Crake" was Margaret Atwood, not Drabble. silly mistake.

- K2K

January 18, 2011 at 5:07am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

noga: http://youtu.be/0sHuLMsRX38 malahat: Hipwaders are harder to find than shoes and socks??? Yes, according to Kaveret arnon: That says it all: "totalitarian left."

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 18, 2011 at 7:49am

You must be a subscriber to post comments. Subscribe today.

SHARE HIGHLIGHT

0 CHARACTERS SELECTED

TWEET THIS

POST TO TUMBLR

SHARE ON FACEBOOK

Close