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Go Home Advice For George Mitchell

THE SPINE JANUARY 21, 2009

Advice For George Mitchell

BY MARTIN PERETZ

George Mitchell is apparently slated to be the special envoy to Israel
and to...well, how does one tell who can represent the Palestinians in
peace talks? Mitchell has been very clear that there is no purpose in
negotiations with parties which don't want peace.  So this leaves us
with Fatah whose certified terrorist history outranks the Tamil Tigers,
the Basque ETA and several other fraternal Muslim killer organizations
altogether. And whose commitment to an arrangement continues to be --
shall we say? -- a bit suspect.Still, Fatah, which has run the
Palestinian Authority over the last two years, is having hundreds of
its militiamen trained by General Keith Dayton and put them into
service, not altogether dysfunctionally, in Hebron and Jenin. It is
clearly the more "moderate" of the Palestinian irridentist forces, and
its words -- of course, not to its people, but to world diplomats and
Israelis -- are civil.  Its not a sound basis for trust. But if you
can't trust Mahmoud Abbas you can trust no Palestinian leader.  Except,
to be sure, the World Bank economist-turned-prime minister Salaam
Fayyaad, practical, reasonable and, alas, without following in the
Palestinian streets.  What about Sari Nusseibeh?  He is the wet dream
of Jewish peaceniks on the Upper West Side, a little slippery, but very
entertaining at dinner.  He runs a niceuniversity in Abu Dis, astride
east Jerusalem. Utterly irrelevant.Oh, one other query about
Fatah: Can it win an election in the West Bank? Perhaps. It is still,
however, unbelievably corrupt and inefficient. It is also probably
tarnished by its quotidian ties to Israel. And, after all, from the
point of view of reasonable Palestinians of which there are some, Fatah
was the political party that gave up a real state in the West Bank to
assuage the demonic "from the river to the sea" delusions of Yassir
Arafat.  On the other hand, there was little turmoil in the West Bank
while the I.D.F. was bombing in Gaza.And, then, there is Hamas.
It entrapped the people of Gaza in a war it provoked. Relentless
rocketry and missiles, utterly relentless, many thousands of them over
almost eight years. What did Hamas or the subjects of its tyranny think
Israel would do? Let the torment mount day in, day out? This war was
perfectly proper because it struck at the Hamas military machine. That
this machine was fused with civil life is not the responsibility of
Israel. But let's face stark facts: many Gaza "civilians" were also happy with this fusion. Victims, yes, but also fools.The
delirium of Palestinian politics is also a stark fact, and that is
reality. And it is not residual reality. Many Palestinians and most in
the Palestinian leadership believe they can whittle Israel down to size
without they themselves having to whittle down their ambitions. This
delirium also translates into the assumption that losing a military
confrontation or, in fact, a war has no consequences. Hamas may launch
another of their suicidal battles. This one won't last a day.George
Mitchell came into the region almost nine years ago. He's an
even-handed man. I myself can't grasp how one can be even-handed
between political gangsters like Hamas and Israel. Unless, that
is, one is willing to be even-handed between the Taliban and its
antagonists, which I don't think Mitchell is prepared to be. And
certainly not Barack Obama. And if I am wrong God have mercy on our
collective soul.So one of the questions that Mitchell must
address first is whether Hamas is really fooling when it says it seeks
the elimination of the Jewish state and, secondly, whether Fatah is
really willing to live with a Jewish state.  I'm afraid that a truthful
evaluation is likely to disappoint him quite a lot.  After all, this is
not a time for ingenuous little tactics to calm the borders for a
while.  It is time to settle the matter, perhaps over the long haul in
order to build confidence, but with a clear goal in sight.I
myself am doubtful whether such an outcome is even plausible. And Mr.
Mitchell's experience in the Irish dispute is frankly no experience at
all. The I.R.A. did not have designs on London. Let's not make too much
of what was always a bitter but containable dispute.Still, the
fact that some Arabs trust Mitchell is a fine omen; and it doesn't mean
that Israelis (or Jews) should distrust him  He is aman of good-will,
perhaps a bit too credulous.  Skepticism is an apt trait to bring to
this very combustible area.What's more, Martin Kramer, a tough-minded Zionist strategist whom I have cited here many times, has written a posting
on his "Sandbox" blog similarly welcoming to George Mitchell. Mitchell
should understand, however, that Israel's security and peace is not a
matter for barter in the Arab market.

SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS

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90 comments

Wasn't George Mitchell, during his previous mission to the Middle East, the one who brought up the subject of the West Bank settlements, when this had never been mentioned by the Palestinians in the discussions?

- Petizo

January 21, 2009 at 9:36pm

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If you can survive Ian Paisley and the DUP in Norn Irlnd, you can survive any challenge after that.

- ironyroad

January 21, 2009 at 9:59pm

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Marty:

Mitchell has been very clear that there is no purpose in negotiations with parties which don't want peace.  

george:

For any of you new to the spine allow me to offer a possible translation.

What I think Marty is trying to suggest here as that peace on terms other then his own is a unconscionable travesty.

I'm sure God has already explained this to the women and children who died in Gaza. Of course, they are Muslims, right?

I think King Solomon had better handle this one.

george walton

- iambiguous

January 22, 2009 at 1:55am

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What Marty is suggesting is that Hamas, which seeks to perpetrate genocide against the Israeli Jews, and the Israelis Jews, who are trying to survive, are not morally equivalent.  Anti-Semites like George Walton seek to obfuscate that basic truth.

The women and children who died in Gaza were used as human shields by the Hamas Nazis.  George Walton knows that, but he doesn’t care.  To him those women and children aren’t human beings, but sticks to be used for the purpose of bashing the Jews

- bulbman1066

January 22, 2009 at 5:49am

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Yes those little baby boys and girls, who were turned into cannon fodder and slaughtered with the some of the deadliest weaponry known to man, were surely fools to allow themselves to be born to Palestinian parents in Gaza.  Those foolish little bastards deserved what they got, right?

Excuse me while I gag and vomit forth my own indignation all over this steaming pile of rancid garbage.

- AaronBBrown

January 22, 2009 at 6:58am

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There are two questions here: what is right and what is reality.  For all of the things one can criticize Israel for, the root of the problem is a broad unwillingness on the part of the Arabs to tolerate a non-Muslim rule in the Middle East (or even existence, unless you count the Jim Crow type codes permitted Jews and Christians in some nations).  But can that be changed prior to Hamas being able to fire weapons into Tel Aviv or WMD-ify them with things like Anthrax?  Remember even Fatah/PA's "acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist" was by a suspicious voice-vote of their parliment and isn't exactly rock-solid.  In my view, the world, led by the U.S., is going to have to impose some sort of agreement if they can't reach one on their own soon.  Everyone knows what it will look like (2000).  The world will need to flood the Gaza strip and West Bank with peacekeepers because the Palestinians aren't in a position yet to police themselves once a peace is reached.  

- Lymon1

January 22, 2009 at 7:58am

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Marty:

Why don't you push for the person who stands closest to your actual position to be nomiated peace envoy-George W. Bush. He's not as overtly racist as you and can say Palestine without having to follow it up with some hostile statement about Arabs having shitty poetry or something but he basically is same wave length as you in terms of seeing what's good for the Israeli right as the final abriter for what the US must do in the region. I heard he might be looking for work.

- alexmh

January 22, 2009 at 8:33am

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Those who disagree with Peretz's post should  just make their case rather than slagging him, responding with virtiolic emotion, substituting the tragedy of lost and maimed lives for argument and accusing him of Hubris. He is after all making arguments and observations which should be met, if they can be, with better arguments and better observations.

- basman

January 22, 2009 at 10:44am

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And just asking again:

Two questions:

1. Can someone link to a fair minded, comprehensive account of Israel's containment of the Gazan border and the flow of goods coming inot Gaza?; and

2. Was is it ever a term of any cease fire/truce between Israel and Hamas that as a quid pro quo Israel would relax, wind down or end its containment (and where are such terms set out and accessible?).

I'd be obliged as these are arguments I hear often asserted in either justificaton for the rockets or in suggestions of moral equivalency between Israeli actions towards Gaza and the rocketing.

- basman

January 22, 2009 at 10:55am

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Oh boy, now we're at "this won't be fair if we're fair".

Marty, Abe Foxman and several others are tripping over into self parody here.

The only way to possibly every get any where and solve anything is if there is you use negotiators who are even handed. Complaining about demonstrates a complete unwillingness to solve the problem.

- AhYup

January 22, 2009 at 11:13am

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The following is a simple point but one that, surprisingly, appears to need repeating:  no party to the Northern Ireland conflict promulgated a theologically-based goal involving the destruction or removal of a neighboring nation-state.

- ironyroad

January 22, 2009 at 12:03pm

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It would be a grand thing if those who have the capacity for moral indignation also had the brains to spew it where it belongs.  Do those who are outraged that the Israelis killed children in their war against Hamas know of another way to fight such as war?  Why doesn't it fill you with moral indignation that the democratically elected leaders of Gaza put children on the front lines where they would be more likely to become casualties?  

Do you remember Ayatollah Khomenie's children's brigades during the war with Iraq who walked out in front of the Iranian infantry to explode the mines before their assaults.  Each child was given a plastic key to where around his neck which would open the gates of heaven for him when he arrived.  These are the folks who are teaching tactics to Hamas.

The Israelis built bomb shelters to protect their children from Gaza missiles.  Hamas built tunnels where their soldiers could hide, but refused to allow their civilians to enter them.  They were more useful on the surface where they could be killed collaterally while Hamas skirmished from schools and mosques and UN safe houses.

The only reason that Hamas welcomes casualties among its children and civilians is because it plays well among the half-wits who watch the news and don't know the history or understand the context.  It fills them with moral indignation and adds to the ever-growing numbers of useful idiots who oppose Israel's legitimacy and it right to self-defense against the barbarians.

- willjames77

January 22, 2009 at 12:35pm

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How come no one ever talks about Marwan Barghouti?

- mmathog

January 22, 2009 at 12:38pm

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I know this is small potatoes in the grand scope of Israel's protection, but I wondered if those godforsaken Gaza tunnels have been shut down.  We should poor cement in them.

- Wandreycer1

January 22, 2009 at 12:41pm

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Yes yes, and it didn't involve one side that continued to expand its territory while claiming to be in favor of peace either.

- AhYup

January 22, 2009 at 12:48pm

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The IRA were opposed and dumped, ultimately, by the people they pretended to represent, who in the late 1990s belatedly realized that this putatively marxist liberation group was little more than a criminal gang intent on shaking down, kneecapping and otherwise terrorizing their own people as well as the other side's civilians.

Unless and until the Palestinian people show similar fortitude in exposing Hamas, and to be honest, Fatah as well, as gangsters masquerading as national leaders, Mr Mitchell will be on a fool's errand.

I do hope that H. shows enough savvy and discipline to avoid sinking much time into such a hopeless enterprise. Bigger fires to put out now. Our banking sector is collapsing, in case anyone hasn't noticed. No banks = no capitalism, remember?

- teplukhin2you

January 22, 2009 at 1:03pm

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see what happens when the 'moral equivalence/history doesn't matter (let alone facts) ' people come wandering in?

Yes, let us see if George Mitchell can get Hamas to admit their genocidal Charter has just been an advertising slogan all these years.  I do wish he spoke Arabic, and not so sure how the son of a Maronite Lebanese Christian will be perceived by any Palestinian.

What were the findings of Mitchell's commission on identifying the roots of violence in this conflict? Isn't that experience more pertinent than his role in Northern Ireland, a conflict that took 900 years to sort of resolve?

- K2K

January 22, 2009 at 1:08pm

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"Our banking sector is collapsing, in case anyone hasn't noticed."

It sure took YOU awhile to notice Tep, so you might wanna back off on the condescending tone.

- mmathog

January 22, 2009 at 1:11pm

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As an ex Citibanker I thought the bank's hugely valuable overseas assets esp in Asia, which will do OK in the next couple of years, and Brazil, which will do better than anyone this year and next, would allow the bank to survive. It came back from the brink in 1991 (thanks to a stay of execution from Fed chief Corrigan and white knight Al Waleed), when it was suffering from equally massive sh*t assets from the S&L and Latin debt fiascos.

So I thought they'd come through this one, too. But it seems obvious now that the two most important private financial institutions in the US if not the world are beyond salvaging, and that the US approach, which has been mimicked more or less, IIUC, by Gordon Brown in the UK in the last 2 weeks, is doomed to failure. Sterling's collapsing. The markets don't like this plan.

Which to my mind means if we continue on our present path we can expect a long slow-motion debacle which will result in a collapsing dollar, maybe even capital controls, and of course presure for trade barriers or special taxes on Chinese imports.

None of this was likely a month ago, but it is now. We need to wipe out shareholders nad nationalize the big banks ASAP. I don't think Team Obama will have much bandwidth left over for any grands projets.

- teplukhin2you

January 22, 2009 at 1:29pm

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Although I knew there was clusterfuck for several years, I did learn two things:

1. How sensitive oil prices are to global demand (I thought supply concerns would keep prices higher, although I do think they'll rise again quickly).

2. The intense 'flight to safety' that occurs when global demand collapses (which actually means that, as shittily as the Fed is treating our dollar, it's still the best among the leper colony.)

"None of this was likely a month ago, but it is now."

Sorry, I disagree, I thought it was likely a year ago, maybe longer.

- mmathog

January 22, 2009 at 1:49pm

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Stephen Walt offers advice to Martin Peretz and his cronies:

-- Those who refuse to criticize Israel even when it acts foolishly surely think they are helping the Jewish state. They are wrong. In fact, they are false friends, because their silence, or worse, their cheerleading, merely encourages Israel to continue potentially disastrous courses of action.  Israel could use some honest advice these days, and it would make eminently good sense if its closest ally were able to provide it. Ideally, this advice would come from the president, the secretary of state, and prominent members of Congress -- speaking as openly as some politicians in other democracies do. But that's unlikely to happen, because Israel's supporters make it almost impossible for Washington to do anything but reflexively back Israel's actions, whether they make sense or not. And they often do not these days.

walt.foreignpolicy.com/.../the_myth_of_israels_strategic_genius

- ndmackenzie

January 22, 2009 at 1:53pm

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Tep, I respect your opinions, but just how do you think nationalizing banks will prevent the disaster you predict? Also, Sterling is collapsing against the dollar. Against what do expect the dollar to collapse? Gold, I presume. But creating trillion dollar deficits will do that in any case. I do not see that nationalizing banks can prevent this.

- r-ennis

January 22, 2009 at 2:01pm

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Yes, against gold, and the Chinese currency, and also oil. Jim Rogers is predicting that the US will resort to capital controls at some point in coming years, ie, severe protectionism.

Re nationalization, roiduboulot can explain much better than I but in a nutshell, these dribs and drabs of capital - $20B here, $80B there - will not salvage institutions that have hundreds of billions of sh*t assets on their books. Neither will they cause Citi and BoA to resume lending or offer consumer credit at less than loan-shark rates. (Yesterday I was notified that my Citi MasterCard, which I automatically pay off in full every month and have done for a decade, will now charge a rate of 23.99%, and 30% for cash advances....)

Athletes know that when removing ankle tape, a quick rip is vastly better than a slow peel. Let 'er rip. Wipe out the shareholders of Citi and BoA, take 'em over and start again.

- teplukhin2you

January 22, 2009 at 2:15pm

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Aaron: So can I fire rockets into the Sderot  of your backyard and expect no retaliation?

- liberal reformer

January 22, 2009 at 2:15pm

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I agree that BoA and Citi sharehoders should not be bailed out anymore than Enron shareholders. But that doesn't mean I would nationalize banking any more than I would nationalize energy. I agree that the dollar will depreciate against gold. That's called inflation. Gold has inflated by a factor of 25 in my adult lifetime against the dollar. So what?  

- r-ennis

January 22, 2009 at 2:34pm

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"The IRA were opposed and dumped, ultimately, by the people they pretended to represent, who in the late 1990s belatedly realized that this putatively marxist liberation group was little more than a criminal gang intent on shaking down, kneecapping and otherwise terrorizing their own people as well as the other side's civilians."

This is too simplistic and one-dimensional, tep.  I think there was a gradually rising distaste among both working-class Catholics/nationalists and working-class Protestants/Unionists for armed conflict over the 1990s but this was echoed within the IRA and Sinn Fein camp itself (and in fringe Protestant paramilitary groups).  Both Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness were legitimate negotiators in IRA eyes because they had served time in prison in the 1970s on various charges -- thus they could say that they had done their bit for the movement and were convinced that the political road was the one to go down.

Despite the decades-long commitment to peaceful means on the part of the SDLP, to take an obvious example, they have generally suffered in electoral fortunes over the past 10 years compared to Sinn Fein, who have clearly gained a leadership edge among the nationalist community.  Something similar has taken place among Protestants/Unionists with the rise of the formerly extreme DUP to a dominant position.

Both the IRA and the British military and intel strategists had done some serious accounting and had assessed chances of complete victory as close to nil, and this played a role in the initial negotiations.  The influence of the Irish government in Irish-American political circles was also crucial in getting substantial help from the Clinton administration under way.  Also, the authorities both sides of the border continued to pursue both IRA and Unionist terrorist actions which increased pressure on the armed wings to get on board with the negotiations or be marginalized by a future agreement.

I don't think you're completely off-target in what you say (and certainly the Palestinians need a kind of Irish-style reckoning with the real potential of the war option) but one would be misreading history if one didn't recognize that Adams and McGuinness, former IRA members who had taken part in terrorist activities (or armed struggle, from the other POV), had enormous credibility when it came to (a) selling the bedrock nationalist/Catholic community on the peace agreement and (b) getting the IRA to disarm.

- ironyroad

January 22, 2009 at 2:57pm

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Fair enough, good points, and thanks for enlightening me. Palestine's lack of an Adams or McGuiness figure ie one with both legitimacy and enough strategic sense to recognize when to give up the maximalist aims and cut losses is still more reason to consider this latest envoy, #247 in my lifetime, a fool's errand.

- teplukhin2you

January 22, 2009 at 3:15pm

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I wish that I could have watched Peretz' face as I read the Gaddafi op-ed in today's Times.  I can't wait to read His Smugness' thoughts on Gaddafi's comments, particularly his sentence about why the Arabs fled in 1948.  .  

- gurdjieff66

January 22, 2009 at 3:29pm

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22% of the original Palestine (that is, if you subscribe to the anti-Semitic propaganda that there ever was such a place called Palestine, which is clearly not mentioned in the Old Testament Planning Application approval that Israel has secured) and much less if you look at Taba, is hardly "maximalist" aims. Nor is requesting, negotiating, pleading, begging for a contiguous piece of land, or viable water rights, not to expand or grow but just to exist.

It's also worth reminding ourselves that it took 20 years for direct resistence to the occupation in the West Bank to emerge; 20 years of settlements. Please Jesus, Obama can get back to something approaching Taba and we can all move on with our lives. Including Jack.  

The new weapons Israel tested on Gaza look pretty horrific as well.

- The Ignorant Populist

January 22, 2009 at 3:31pm

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"Palestine's lack of an Adams or McGuiness figure ie one with both legitimacy and enough strategic sense to recognize when to give up the maximalist aims and cut losses is still more reason to consider this latest envoy, #247 in my lifetime, a fool's errand."

Marwan

Barghouti

Israel has him locked up.

He is everything you just described Tep.

- mmathog

January 22, 2009 at 3:37pm

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ironyroad writes:

-- one would be misreading history if one didn't recognize that Adams and McGuinness, former IRA members who had taken part in terrorist activities (or armed struggle, from the other POV), had enormous credibility when it came to (a) selling the bedrock nationalist/Catholic community on the peace agreement and (b) getting the IRA to disarm.

One would also be misreading history if one didn't recognize that the vast majority of Britons didn't give a rat's ass about Northern Ireland. This makes the situation in that conflict somewhat different from that of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

- ndmackenzie

January 22, 2009 at 3:39pm

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The Ignorant Populist writes:

-- The new weapons Israel tested on Gaza look pretty horrific as well.

It wasn't just Cast Lead, but Cast Phosphorus and Cast Tungsten. The architects of that brutal and inhuman carnage should be cast in prison.

- ndmackenzie

January 22, 2009 at 3:43pm

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The cluster munitions in particular make me sick Mac. The latest and greatest use tiny darts. Clearly, those thousands of red hot speed of sound tiny darts were able to "target" the terrorists and were necessary in the most densly populated prison on earth.

- The Ignorant Populist

January 22, 2009 at 3:55pm

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tep:  "Palestine's lack of an Adams or McGuiness figure ie one with both legitimacy and enough strategic sense to recognize when to give up the maximalist aims . . . "

Exactly, although I confess to not knowing enough about Barghouti to agree or disagree with mmathog.

Iggy -- come on, that's not what's meant by "maximalist" aims.  I mean, be serious.

- ironyroad

January 22, 2009 at 4:04pm

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Maybe, you could clarify for me then Irony. In a serious, adult way. Abbas has signed up to 67ish, the entire Arab world (as uncivilised as they are) have signed up to it, not to mention - everywhere, everyone outside of the US and Israel. Even Hamas was indicating this acceptance. Why is this plan so difficult for Israel?

- The Ignorant Populist

January 22, 2009 at 4:30pm

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Qaddafi's op-ed was, indeed, incredible. Too bad it came 60 years too late. His vision may yet come to be but only after trust between the parties is developed.  

- r-ennis

January 22, 2009 at 4:36pm

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Iggy, the problem is (a) trust and (b) Right of Return, which if there were trust, would not be an issue either. You are wrong that Hamas would accept the 1967 borders, with or without Right of Return.

- r-ennis

January 22, 2009 at 4:40pm

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Matthew Yglesias, as usual, has a much wiser take on Mitchell than will ever feature in The New Republic:

-- Israel has a strong interest in peace. And achieving peace requires the United States to participate in a credible way. If President Obama were to send someone over there who’ll just repeat Israeli government talking points, that won’t help anyone. Credible American intervention can, by contrast, deliver Israel the security goods that military strength never has. We’ve seen it in the past with deals with Egypt and Jordan. And we could see it again with Syria and, one hopes, with the Palestinians and—via the Arab Peace Initiative—with the entire Arab League. Ultimately, that would do far more to advance Israeli interests than would any yes-man.

yglesias.thinkprogress.org/.../foxman_steps_up_his_campaign_against_fairness.php

- ndmackenzie

January 22, 2009 at 5:37pm

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The white phosphorus weapons are horrific. My heart goes out to the innocents whom Hamas used as shields in this war. Sickening.

- teplukhin2you

January 22, 2009 at 5:43pm

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bulb:

What Marty is suggesting is that Hamas, which seeks to perpetrate genocide against the Israeli Jews, and the Israelis Jews, who are trying to survive, are not morally equivalent. Anti-Semites like George Walton seek to obfuscate that basic truth.

The women and children who died in Gaza were used as human shields by the Hamas Nazis. George Walton knows that, but he doesn’t care. To him those women and children aren’t human beings, but sticks to be used for the purpose of bashing the Jews

George:

Hamas and genocide? You cannot commit genocide with nothing more than homemade bombs fired aimlessly. Sure, if Hamas was not armed about 1/10,000th of the Israeli military...if they had access to the sort of weapons Israel does...then I would support Israel all the way in retaliating. And if civillians were killed then it would truly be a terrible tragedy. Just as it was in World War II. Israel, however, would have no choice because its very existence was on the line.

But that's not the reality over there, is it? Instead, Israel commits war crimes in Gaza. Let's call them what they are. And I truely hope that somehow, somewhere [just as with the Bush administration] those in Israel responsible for this outrageous slaughter are prosecuted for war crimes.

I've been over all the bullshit rationalizations in here about Hamas and "civilian shields". They are as specious and as cowardly as all the rest of the lies spread by those brand anyone an anti-semite if they dare to even hint at not following Marty's line top to bottom. Again, I back Israel to the hilt if any nation in the region poses a severe and immediate threat to its national security. For example, if Iran goes nuclear, Israeli leaders not only have the right to shut it down, they have a moral obligation to the citizens of Israel to do so. I would be behind Israel 100%.

But Gaza is a dark and ugly stain that will stay with Israel for a long time to come.

george walton

- iambiguous

January 22, 2009 at 5:48pm

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R-ennis, a - fair enough, b - that could be, and practically was as far as I know, resolved.

Glib and pathetic Teplukhin. The use of white phosphorus in densly populated urban areas is fucking obscene and an act of terror. As is anti-personel cluster munitions designed to decimate massed infantry formations. Period.  

- The Ignorant Populist

January 22, 2009 at 5:56pm

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basman:

Those who disagree with Peretz's post should just make their case rather than slagging him, responding with virtiolic emotion....

George:

Yes, and we can always count on Marty's loyalists in The Spine to treat those who express arguments conflicting with their own as courteously and conscientiously as they would expect us to treat their own points of view.

Right.

Dittoheads [left and right] respect only their own mindlessly narrow manichean world views.

george walton

- iambiguous

January 22, 2009 at 6:02pm

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iggy, Hamas put the civilians on point, and hid in the tunnels. The very unpleasant, appalling truth here it that Hamas obliterated the lines between war zone and schools mosques hospitals and homes.

- teplukhin2you

January 22, 2009 at 6:13pm

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willjames:

It would be a grand thing if those who have the capacity for moral indignation also had the

children in their war against Hamas know of another way to fight such as war? Why doesn't it fill you with moral indignation that the democratically elected leaders of Gaza put children on the front lines where they would be more likely to become casualties?

George:

Ah, I see. Hamas [militarily, a garter snake to Israel's acaconda] can be defeated only if Israel, in balancing the relationship between means and ends, BECOMES Hamas.

gw

- iambiguous

January 22, 2009 at 6:15pm

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Wandreycer1 said:

I know this is small potatoes in the grand scope of Israel's protection, but I wondered if those godforsaken Gaza tunnels have been shut down. We should poor cement in them

George:

Better still, why not mix the citizens of Gaza in the cement and then pour it into the tunnels. If that doesn't send a message to the terrorist thugs, nothing less is likely to.

gw

- iambiguous

January 22, 2009 at 6:19pm

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Accepted.

Is the IDF not responsible for its own actions? Has it delegated its command structure to terrorists? Come on, lets get real. It didn't have to use Gaza as a giant testing area for new weapons.

I'd argue the whole invasion was avoidable, a war of choice almost;  Fukuyama was right - the Bush doctrine in Gaza. But it's late, work pressure is doing my f*cking nut in and I don't have the strength to get into that.

Regardless, lets hope there's some movement on the whole thing. We could do without the constant diversion from other pressing issues like Obama's high risk Afghanistan policy. Not sure if throwing Karzai to the wolves, for a "strong" government, is the answer.

Goodnight.

- The Ignorant Populist

January 22, 2009 at 6:30pm

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Iggy: As , I blogged last year, your user name is extremely apt. In case you haven't noticed (can you be that ignorant?), the state of Israel has not gained much acceptance in the Arab world and as for the Palestinians, Fatah has employed peace as a tactic rather than a goal in the past. And Hamas is much worse. You are the type of person - if your financial acumen is anything like the political analogue - who must get taken to the cleaners repeatedly.

- liberal reformer

January 22, 2009 at 6:51pm

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"Gazan doctor says death toll inflated"

"Physician at Gaza's Shifa Hospital tells Italian newspaper number of dead in Israeli offensive 'stands at no more than 500 or 600, most of them youths recruited to Hamas' ranks'. Senior Palestinian Health Ministry official denies claims, IDF estimate on 1,200 casualties in Strip remains unchanged "

www.ynetnews.com/.../0,7340,L-3660423,00.html

- jacksondyer

January 22, 2009 at 7:15pm

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Will ignoramus be there too?

"Neo-Nazis plan Gaza 'Holocaust' vigil in Berlin"

Jan. 21, 2009

BENJAMIN WEINTHAL, JPost correspondent , THE JERUSALEM POST

"The National Democratic Party (NPD), a German neo-Nazi party, announced on its Web site Monday that it will hold a solemn vigil on January 27 in downtown Berlin to "stop the Israeli holocaust in the Gaza Strip."

Hatred of Jews and Israel has over the years, particularly since the Second Lebanon War in 2006, unified diverse political groups in Germany, ranging from members of the German Left Party to pro-Hizbullah and pro-Hamas Islamists, to the NPD. Members of the Left Party, which is the fourth largest party in the Bundestag, with 54 deputies, marched in anti-Israeli demonstrations over the last three weeks in which protesters called for the destruction of Israel and the murder of Jews and Israelis.

According to an announcement on the NPD's Berlin chapter Web site on Monday, "efforts striving for a cease-fire, which are supposed to calm the world population, cannot conceal that the Israeli war is about a campaign of extermination. We are defending ourselves against foreign rule in our own land and recognize the right of the Palestinians to their own state without Israel's patronizing and dominating behavior."

The NPD is represented in a number of local city councils in Berlin districts and scored state-level victories in the state parliament of Saxony in 2004 and 2008, as well as in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania in 2006.

"Joint hatred of everything Jewish is unifying neo-Nazis and Islamists... German-Palestinians protestors unashamedly admitted that they would vote for the NPD during the next election," Charlotte Knobloch, the head of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, warned in her speech at a pro-Israel rally earlier this month in Munich.

Knobloch noted that the alliance between Nazis and the Palestinians was not new and that in 1941 Adolf Hitler met the grand mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Muhammad Amin al-Husseini, to secure his support for the Holocaust."

www.jpost.com/.../Satellite

- jacksondyer

January 22, 2009 at 7:16pm

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sometimes cartoons can capture essential truths: www.realclearpolitics.com/.../israel_palestine_cartoon.gif

- teplukhin2you

January 22, 2009 at 7:45pm

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"Exactly, although I confess to not knowing enough about Barghouti to agree or disagree with mmathog."

Exactly, none of you guys know much about him.... Kinda shocking in a way, and also kind of predictable.

Here's something: Abbas asked him not to run for president (from prison) because he would've won like 75% of the vote (in Gaza and the W.B.) from prison.

Despite that, no one talks about him. In fact, no one even wants to type something like 'he's a terrorist...' or whatever.

Anyone who wonders why the Palestinians have no real central leadership who can negotiate for peace and deliver should also ask themselves why they don't know much about this guy.

At least know enough to dismiss him, jeez.

- mmathog

January 22, 2009 at 7:54pm

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For that cartoon to be accurate tep, the Israeli guy would have to be holding a bazooka while the Palestinian dude would be tossing a rock.

(Before jackson shoots me in the face, I want to reiterate that I'm GLAD Israel has the proverbial 'bazooka.')

- mmathog

January 22, 2009 at 8:04pm

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mmathog said:  "For that cartoon to be accurate tep, the Israeli guy would have to be holding a bazooka while the Palestinian dude would be tossing a rock"

This is a false image.

The rock throwing Palestinians has always been done for the sake of the camera. What somoene called "Pallywood," ie Palestinian Hollywood like fictions which the Western media loves to report as real.

- jacksondyer

January 22, 2009 at 8:25pm

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"This is a false image. "

By selecting 'rock throwing' I might have chosen an image that confuses with the issue you've pointed out Jackson.

How about this:

For the cartoon to be accurate, the Israeli guy would have to be holding a bazooka while the Palestinian dude was sporting a bow and arrow.

Fixed?

- mmathog

January 22, 2009 at 8:37pm

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mmathog:  "For the cartoon to be accurate, the Israeli guy would have to be holding a bazooka while the Palestinian dude was sporting a bow and arrow."

This is even a more absurd image.

The conflict is in part a war of words and images as  well as weapons.

Hamas in the last 7 years has shot tens of thousands of rockets.

Israelis within range have been living close to shelters. They build protective structures for their children.

The Gazans by contrast have been shooting rockets from schools and even TV studios. This is fact:

"Hamas fires from foreign Press building in Gaza January 2009 - Unintentional News from Alarabiya-TV"

www.youtube.com/watch

The cartoon acurately depicted the situation.  Your image is fanciful and self serving.

- jacksondyer

January 22, 2009 at 9:09pm

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"The cartoon acurately depicted the situation.  Your image is fanciful and self serving. "

That depends on what you're trying to convey, if you're simply trying to point out that Hamas uses civilians as shields while Israel is fighting to protect civilians, fine.

However, that original image failed to depict the massive difference in firepower each side possesses, in fact, worse, it makes it seem like it's an even fight.

- mmathog

January 22, 2009 at 9:19pm

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Today I have come bearing an olive branch and a freedom fighter's gun.  Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand.

- CRS9TNR

January 22, 2009 at 9:25pm

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mmathog, you have now entered the mode of argument where you are just justifying your original point of view.  

If someone had a machine gun and the other a canon neither of them is defenseless. However, one side decides to kill while the other side is defending itself. Your reading of the cartoon is faulty because it doesn't take that into account.

Do you know what over 6  thousands rockets fired at Israeli towns and villages means?

“SDEROT, Israel -- Once a sleepy Negev town, Sderot has become a place where residents take sedatives to get through the days and sleeping pills to make it through the nights.

After seven years of rocket fire from the nearby Gaza Strip and no end in sight, the ceaseless barrage is pitting husbands against wives over the decision of whether or not to stay and leaving crippled businesses to survive on hope and loans.

Many of those who can afford to have left.

About 4000 of the town's 23,500 people have moved out in the past two years, according to municipal figures. Many more say they would leave if they could.

According to a recent poll published in Yediot Achronot, 64 per cent of Sderot’s residents would go if given the financial assistance.

"There are people who are selling, but there is no one to buy," said Yakov Levy, a realtor in town.

"People cannot go, so they feel stuck. If only they could sell their homes they would go."

Home prices have fallen by 50 per cent, Levy said, with the cheapest apartments on the market for just $15,000 and the most expensive houses for about $200,000.

Prices were nearly double that in 2000, before the daily rocket fire began.

"We are suffering, not just me, but all of us. The strong ones left, the weaker stay on and everyone complains,” Levy said.

“We are waiting for better days but do not see a solution because things have gone on for so long now. If the situation continues, however, the only things left standing here will be the buildings.”

After seven years of ongoing rocket fire, residents of this working-class town seem divided between defiant and defeated.

Although they all speak of the power of Sderot’s close-knit community, some talk openly about their desire to leave to regain some semblance of a normal life.

Others say that despite the difficulties, the only home they know is Sderot and to abandon it would show the Palestinians firing the rockets that Israelis’ spirit can be broken.

Last week, Palestinians in Gaza fired an Iranian-made Katyusha rocket that reached Ashkelon, a city of some 120,000 about 10 kilometres north of the strip.

The rocket served as a reminder that Sderot is not alone in the danger zone around Gaza.

Sderot's economic downturn began when it became the target of constant Kassam rocket fire from Gaza.

The attacks, which intensified after Israel withdrew from Gaza in August 2005, have thus far claimed 13 Israeli lives.

The damage to residents’ psyches, homes, businesses and families has been far reaching.

About 20-30 per cent of businesses in Sderot and surrounding areas have shut down, said Daniel Dahan, a supermarket owner who heads an organisation of local businesspeople.

Overall sales at the stores that remain open have dropped by nearly 50 per cent, he said.

Dahan says families are struggling to get by on reduced salaries and many find themselves divided over whether to stay or leave Sderot.

Often the husband will have taken out several loans and dipped heavily into family savings to keep the business afloat.

The wife, distressed at the mounting debt and the danger to their children from the rocket fire, pushes for leaving.

Stories of divorce have become common here, Dahan says.

"What happens is that a business owner comes into work and finds it difficult to manage things because of the pressures from home, concerns over the children and his workers," Dahan said, describing how the security situation creates a ripple effect of stress.

"The wife wants to leave and the husband does not want to because of the business, and the wife says, ‘If something happens to the kids it will be your fault.’ ”

He said the ramifications of the economic crisis have slowly begun to sink in.

"It's like an illness that has taken over us. At first we businesspeople did not believe it could kill us off," Dahan said.

"We have lived like patients who have been warned of health hazards by our doctor, but now we feel like we have had the heart attack.

"Some of us who have businesses feel it is a condition we can live with and take another loan. Others understand it's a deadly disease and we have no choice but to walk away."

Shimon, a grocer in Sderot’s open-air market, says he doesn’t want assistance to leave he wants the government to strike back at the militant groups in Gaza.

"I've been working in the market for more than 30 years," he said.

"I'm not going anywhere now. I raised my four kids here my wife's family is from Sderot. There's nowhere else for us to go.

"I haven't had a good night's sleep in eight years. I bolt awake at the slightest movement or noise outside the house. I just want the government to make sure that we can get back to living like normal people."

Israel has stepped up its strikes in recent weeks against Gaza militants, particularly those firing rockets at Israelis and smuggling in weaponry, but the government remains wary of a large-scale invasion of Gaza.

A major incursion could cost Israel heavily in terms of its soldiers’ lives, Palestinian civilian lives and international credibility.

It also would not put an end to the rocket fire, analysts warn.

Atara Orenbouch and her husband, Orthodox Jews originally from the centre of the country, moved to Sderot nine years ago.

They said they moved to try to make a difference in the community. Both are educators she teaches computer science and her husband is a yeshiva principal. They have four children.

Orenbouch says she tries to do all her family’s shopping in Sderot.

"There have been economically terrible times," she said, recounting a period last spring when a particularly heavy period of rocket barrages sent many residents out of town.

"I went to the supermarket and it was empty. I saw a man throwing away unsold vegetables and there were no lines."

Orenbouch’s children now all sleep in bunk beds in the family's "safe room," which is made of reinforced concrete to protect against the crude Kassam rockets.

She says she and her neighbours are doing their best to persevere and stay, but the fear of being caught by a rocket and the question of where to run for cover is never far away.

"It gets to you. You think about it all the time -- at synagogue, at lunch with friends," Orenbouch said.

"You are always thinking: If there were an alarm now, where would the safest place be to hide?"”

www.ajn.com.au/.../news.asp

The image of a David vs. Goliath is not applicable to this conflict.

- jacksondyer

January 22, 2009 at 10:02pm

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mmathog:  "At least know enough to dismiss him, jeez."

I wasn't planning to dismiss Barghouti -- I was simply declaring my ignorance rather than pontificating on something I didn't have enough information on.  Jeez!

- ironyroad

January 22, 2009 at 10:20pm

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Thanks Jacksondyer for trying, by posting about life, such as it is, in S'derot.  The JNF is building an indoor recreation center, with underground shelter, because the children of S'derot are afraid to play outdoors, for most of their young lives.

Not that the automaton Israel-bashers care.   I feel as though I've been at war all these weeks, just by reading how much the liberal left draws the line at being 'liberal' when it comes to Jews with guns.  

Maybe the heart of the disconnect is unwillingness to see Jews as warriors.  Get used to it.

- K2K

January 22, 2009 at 11:44pm

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K2K, "Not that the automaton Israel-bashers care."

These are bad enough, but the worse are people who say (and I have no reason to doubt them) that they are pro Israel, yet adopt the notions of Israel bashers when they fantasize about the kinds of unlimited power Israel has.  

It doesn't.

Perhaps such people are too frightened to face the fact that Israeli power is not only limited but whatever power they do have they are not allowed to use in their self defense  because they will be accused of acting like bulies.

This is the aim of the anti Israel side to make sure that the Jewish State not be able to respond to murderous attacks.

THis vicious propaganda campaign is part of the war effort against Israel.

- jacksondyer

January 23, 2009 at 12:07am

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Iggy, it is very clear to me. No Qassams, no white phosphorous. Spare me your bullshit piety.

- r-ennis

January 23, 2009 at 10:52am

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If the Arabs stopped trying to kill Jews and make East Jeruslaem  and Judea and Samaria judenrein, everything else would fall into place.  Everything else is background noise.  Sen. Mitchell shows no indication of having learned this fundamental fact.

       Alan B. Katz

- tripwire08

January 23, 2009 at 11:08am

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So I am your neighbor and every day I walk around my yard and throw rocks into your yard trying to hit your dog(s) & cat(s).  Occasionally I get lucky and kill one.  

Again I am your neighbor.  Everyday when your family is off at work / school I plant a random bomb on one of the entrances to your house.  It could be the garage door, a window, the front door and so on...  Everyday you have to come home from work search your property for bombs to prevent these bombs from blowing up yourself and the rest of your family & friends.  Occasionally I get lucky and kill one.

Animals are not as important as people.  However, if someone was doing what was indicated in the first scenario it would put you immediately on the defensive.  You would most likely contact the police to "Punish" me.  In some rare circumstances you may even try to physically harm or kill me.  The second scenario more accurately depicts what is occuring in Israel and yet some of you have the gal to indicate that victims have no right to defend themselves.  Something is fundamentally wrong with many of you.  And it really makes me hope that someday you find a bomb in your doorway to "enlighten" you.

- TLaBorn

January 23, 2009 at 12:04pm

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There is no justification for the use of White Phospherus rounds on personnel, by the IDF.

US Army Doctrine taught at the Field Artillery School and the Field Manuels forbid use of the White Phosperus artillery rounds on personnel (yes, even enemy personnel).   The intended use of the round doctrinally is linited to rare cases for Petro compounds.

Please refer to the US Army Manuals 6-30 and 6-20-30.

Use of the White Phosperus rounds on personnel is a war crime, and against The Law of Land Warfare.  

- gregorybutn

January 23, 2009 at 1:00pm

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"Perhaps such people are too frightened to face the fact that Israeli power is not only limited but whatever power they do have they are not allowed to use in their self defense  because they will be accused of acting like bulies."

Keep the psychobabble to yourself jackson.

If I felt like it, I could say you are the one so scared and paranoid that you don't see the reality staring you in the face.

"THis vicious propaganda campaign is part of the war effort against Israel. "

Crazy.

- mmathog

January 23, 2009 at 1:09pm

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mmathog, is both scared and ignorant.

- jacksondyer

January 23, 2009 at 1:37pm

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"Rise in attacks prompts renewed fears for French Jews"

jta.org/.../spike-of-attack-prompts-renewed-fears-for-french-jews

By Devorah Lauter · January 21, 2009

"Rabbi Mendel Belinow sitting at his desk in the community center in the northern Paris suburb of Saint-Denis, the scene of anti-Semitic attacks. (Devorah Lauter) PARIS (JTA) -- The spike of anti-Semitic attacks across Europe during Israel's three-week war in Gaza has struck a raw nerve here, reviving fears among French Jews that the violence of the second intifada years has returned to their country.

During the intifada earlier in the decade, a sustained surge in attacks against French Jews and the government’s perceived lackluster response prompted many Jews to fear for their future in France, with some leaving the country.

The government’s belated crackdown on the violence and the election in May 2007 of a new president, Nicolas Sarkozy, with warm ties to Israel and the Jewish community allayed the fears of many and helped tamper anti-Semitic attacks.

But the attacks returned this month with the latest conflagration in the Middle East, enraging French Muslims and resulting in near-daily assaults against Jews for the duration of the Gaza war.

"They are more worried about their safety. They are more afraid than before," said Rabbi Mendel Belinow, leader of a Chabad-Lubavitch synagogue and outreach center in the northern Paris suburb of Saint-Denis that was firebombed Jan. 11.

Two of the nine Molotov cocktails thrown at his synagogue ignited, burning part of the center's cafeteria. No injuries were reported, though the rabbi was in the building at the time and was believed to have been a target.

The synagogue, located in a heavily immigrant suburb known for its high crime and poverty rates, also was attacked in 2005 when "Death to the Jews" was scrawled on its inner walls.

Over the past few weeks, the Jewish community has seen attacks ranging from firebombings to stabbings. The government’s inability to protect them from violence, despite the efforts of French authorities, has generated a renewed sense of unease in the French Jewish community, which numbers roughly 600,000 in a country of 60 million. France has 5 million to 6 million Muslims.

"It's harder to reassure them now," Belinow said of his approximately 160 congregants.

While the current cease-fire between Israel and Hamas is expected to diminish anti-Jewish violence, pro-Palestinian groups have promised to continue with their anti-Israel protests. Such demonstrations in France, which have drawn tens of thousands, commonly have ended in riots and are a mouthpiece for virulent anti-Zionism, including the burning of Israeli flags. Jews and synagogues have been attacked following protests by a fringe of violent youths.

Jewish community leaders warn that fears of further attack will disrupt the daily routines of Jews and intimidate them into hiding their religious identity -- and if the volatile situation is not controlled, to flee the country.

In Toulouse, where institutions were mostly spared from violence during the second intifada, Rabbi Jonathan Guez said he and congregants were shocked and unprepared when a car containing firebombs was rammed into the front gate of their synagogue and exploded on Jan. 5.

Guez said Jews would now be "more discreet" about displaying their religion publicly and careful about avoiding troubled neighborhoods. The few Jews who still live in government-subsidized housing projects are thinking about leaving the area, and the synagogue will be heavily secured with cameras and patrol units for the first time, Guez said.

During the violence in France during the second intifada, some French Jews fearful of anti-Semitism pulled their children from public schools and enrolled them in private Jewish schools, began wearing baseball caps on their heads to hide their yarmulkes, moved out of mixed Muslim-Jewish neighborhoods or immigrated to Israel.

But as the attacks against Jews waned, so did French aliyah, dropping to 1,910 in 2008 from 2,700 the year before. Oren Toledano, the director of the Paris-based aliyah department for the Jewish Agency for Israel, called this the "Sarkozy Effect," attributing it to the popularity of the French president among French Jews and the sense of security Sarkozy’s election gave them.

In the past three weeks, Toledano said, his phone has begun ringing off the hook again, with many French Jews considering aliyah calling to accelerate the process.

Many Jews fear Sarkozy alone isn't enough to reassure the community. When French politicians considered friends of Israel chose not to attend pro-Israel rallies in some French cities during the latest war, some Jews said they again felt abandoned by their lawmakers.

"One president who supports Israel doesn't mean Jews will feel represented," said Patrick Gaubert, president of the International League Against Racism and Anti-Semitism. "One president is great, but it's not enough."

Frédéric Encel, a geopolitical scholar and expert on French-Israel ties, says the situation is still far better than it was at the start of the second intifada. Some French authorities were seen then as explaining away anti-Jewish crime in France. Now the country has a president and foreign minister, Bernard Kouchner, invested in brokering Middle East peace.

On Jan. 16, Prime Minister Francois Fillon held a meeting of government ministers to prevent the import of the Israel-Hamas conflict to France. The meeting pledged swifter measures to punish perpetrators of xenophobic crimes, special judges trained in anti-Semitism and tighter security at pro-Palestinian protests, according to a report by the French news agency AFP.

As the government fine-tunes its security measures, community dialogue activists say the Gaza war destroyed years of efforts to prevent a repetition of the violent reaction in France to the second intifada.

On Monday, the Grand Mosque of Paris confirmed to the JTA that its members had pulled out from a major interreligious dialogue group, the French Judeo-Muslim Friendship organization. The mosque issued a statement last week complaining of the "total absence of condemnations" of Israel's operation in Gaza from the group’s Jewish contingent, according to AFP.

The Jewish representative to the group, Rabbi Michel Serfaty, insisted he would not slow his efforts with the remaining Muslims in the group, which was assembled five years ago.

"Prejudice can't be changed overnight,” Serfaty said.

"It's possible that what happens thousands of kilometers away can undo all our work," acknowledged a member of the Council of Jewish Communities, Andre Benayoun, at a synagogue in southern Paris on Jan. 16, where a back door was set ablaze by arsonists the day before.

Among other things, the council urges local politicians to prevent anti-Semitism through security measures and dialogue with Muslim leaders.

"We can never let our arms down, never resign,” Benayoun said of efforts to reach out to Muslims. We must “just start over systematically."

- jacksondyer

January 23, 2009 at 1:39pm

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"Catalunya cancels Shoah memorial ceremony over Gaza op"

"Barcelona pulls public service marking International Holocaust Remembrance Day in protest of Israeli offensive in Strip. 'Marking the Jewish Holocaust while a Palestinian Holocaust is taking place is not right,' says official"

Maya Mahler

BARCELONA – The Catalunya government has called off the ceremony marking the International Holocaust Remembrance Day, which was scheduled to take place on January 27, citing the Israeli offensive in Gaza as the reason.

The Gaza campaign has inflamed the already pro-Palestinian public opinion in the northeastern Spanish region, and the local media has run endless stories comparing the Israeli stance on the situation in the Strip to Nazi atrocities.

Over 30,000 people marched in Catalunya's streets in support of Hamas, during the three-week campaign, burning Israeli flags and handing out flyers threatening local pro-Israel journalists.

The overwhelming public support for the Palestinians has prompted the government to cancel the Holocaust Remembrance Day service. This was to be the only public event marking the day, and was scheduled to take place in Barcelona's central piazza.

"Marking the Jewish Holocaust while a Palestinian Holocaust is taking place is not right," a local City official told Barcelona's La Vanguardia newspaper.

'Comparison a distortion of history'

Rafael Shutz, the Israeli ambassador to Madrid, sent a letter to President of the Government of Catalunya José Montilla Aguilera, expressing his concern over the flaring anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic sentiments sweeping through his region.

Meanwhile, other European countries have also compared Israel's actions in Operation Cast Lead to those of Nazi Germany: A Norwegian diplomat stationed in Saudi Arabia sent a mass-distributed email stating that "the grandchildren of Holocaust survivors are doing the same thing to the Palestinians, as the Nazis did to their grandparents," using her official Norwegian Foreign Ministry address.

In Germany, the Neo-Nazi National Democratic Party (NPD - Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands) announced it would be mounting a protest march in Berlin on January 27, under the banner of "Stop the Israeli Holocaust in the Gaza Strip."

Avner Shalev, head of the Yad Vashem Holocaust museum, admonished both the comparison and the use of Nazi symbols in many of the anti-Gaza operation protests around the world.

"These comparisons are a manipulative distortion of history," he said, adding that the Holocaust would be best left out of the contemporary political discourse.  "

www.ynetnews.com/.../1,2506,L-3660349,00.html

- jacksondyer

January 23, 2009 at 1:51pm

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JD: Please, can't you just quote a short excerpt and provide a link to the article you wish us to read? It doesn't encourage reading. Trust me, no one who is too lazy to click on a link is going to bother with reading the entire article you post.

- noga1

January 23, 2009 at 2:41pm

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Spain = far and away the most anti-semitic country in Europe. Even more than Russia or Poland.

- teplukhin2you

January 23, 2009 at 3:21pm

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"Spain = far and away the most anti-semitic country in Europe."

Well, they invented, in the middle ages,  the conflation between religion and  race in the way they evaluated converso suitability to serve in public and trusted positions. They called it "limpieza de sangre", purity of blood. A person rumoured to have Jewish blood had to provide proof of his blood purity going back 20 generations. For comparison, the Nazis' investigation of racial purity went back 8 generations.

I once was researching one particular converso, the mystical poet and monk Luis de Leon, He was a descendant of conversos. Much to my surprise I found that to this day his critics and admirers try to exonerate him of this "'sin", claiming that, no, he had no Jewish blood, these were all just rumours concocted by defamers who were his academic adversaries.

- noga1

January 23, 2009 at 3:46pm

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wow. interesting, noga. tell us more, pls, about Spain. It's a fascinating culture, one with layers beneath layers.

My own brief experience there includes going to recruit at a leading European business school, IESE in Barcelona, and being shocked to see a full-length oil portrait of the founder of Opus Dei, who IIUC also founded the school. The middle-aged, courtly woman administrator at the school perked up noticeably when I said I recognized who he was... Lord knows if that woman was into hairshirts and nail-beds and the rest of the gaudy ritual (I didn't ask), but my imagination was off and running with various scenarios gothicos on the SPanish model. A strange people, strange nation.

- teplukhin2you

January 23, 2009 at 4:37pm

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Nogal: Spain invented the Middle Agez? Far before the meteoric rise of Spain, there were the Italian city-states, not to mention the papacy. I don't believe that Thomas Aquinas was from Barcelona, was he? Sure, the auto-da-fe and all that. But we are talking the Renaissance when Spain was really getting juiced up.

- liberal reformer

January 23, 2009 at 7:28pm

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liberal reformer said:

"Nogal: Spain invented the Middle Agez? Far before the meteoric rise of Spain, there were the Italian city-states, not to mention the papacy. I don't believe that Thomas Aquinas was from Barcelona, was he? Sure, the auto-da-fe and all that. But we are talking the Renaissance when Spain was really getting juiced up."

Good point, LR.

Actually the Renaissance was worse for Jews and other dissenters in Europe than the Middle Ages had been. More “witches” were burned in the Renaissance than in the Mages, for example.  Likewise the Ghetto was an Italian Renaissance invention: 1516.

Before that Jews had their “Juderias” in Spain (before the expulsion) but these were not jails. The European Ghettos were in effect jails or concentration enclaves. Jews were not allowed to leave without a permit.

In any case Spanish history doesn’t follow the same trajectory as other Western European countries. This is true in politics, in religion, as well as in literature.

- jacksondyer

January 23, 2009 at 8:58pm

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"Likewise the Ghetto was an Italian Renaissance invention: 1516. "

I'm reading an interesting book now about Jews in Reniassance Italy with an interesting thesis. The author claims that the invention of the Jewish ghetto was actually an evolution towards tolerance. Whereas before Jews were forbidden to settle or live in cities (and when they did it was only by temporary permit and to a priveliged few) , the establishment of a ghetto was a de facto recognition and acceptance of a pemanent presence, which was unheard of before. Albeit with all the restrictions and humiliations that accrued to such a life.

""Nogal: Spain invented the Middle Agez?"

Liberal: I did not claim that Spain invented the middle ages. Why would I say something so stupid?

tep: I spent a month traveling in Spain, twenty years ago. It was the best road trip we ever took. The university of  Salamanca is ancient, dating back to the 1450's. This is where I met, for the first time, Luis de Leon, who was a professor there in the sixteenth century. Above the door to his lecture hall, which is now a museum, there was a verse from the Bible written in Hebrew.  In later years I learned that he was a translator who translated The Song of Songs from Hebrew into the vernacular Spanish, something he was forbidden to do, by order of the Inquisition. This more or less revived my interest  in him. He had some very modern ideas about translation which I liked. He was accused of judaizing and spent nearly 5 years in the dungeons of the Inquisition. He eventually was freed, with a stern warning. Two years later he was hauled up again before the tribunal for some minor infraction.

- noga1

January 23, 2009 at 9:55pm

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I almost see (in an alternate universe) a famous Monty Python sketch::

SCENE:  A room in Salamanca, around the early 1320s.  It's hot, and the electric fan hasn't been invented yet.

1st Bishop:  We need to think outside the box, people!

2nd Bishop:  What do you mean?

Royal courtier:  Let's not do anything wierd.

1st Bishop:  Look at it this way -- we only have a small region of this country, the Ay-rabs are sitting pretty down below -- we need some ideas.

Royal courtier:  Who wants that primitive cesspit down south anyhow?

2nd Bishop:  OK but wait a minute, they have algebra and geometry and stuff.  It's not all bad.  We should be tolerant, and learn from them.

1st Bishop and courtier:  What?

2nd Bishop:  Forget it -- we can always steal what we need.  Angles and things.  Covert ops deal.

1st Bishop:  Yeah.  But right now ee need some serious thinking.

2nd Bishop:  I have something -- it sounds crazy, but how about we invent this period in history -- let's call it, oh, the "Middle Ages" or something that sounds convincing, put it in caps if you like, and we use it to isolate the Jews, put pressure on the Islamic crowd, and look toward a unification of the peninsula under Christian rule flanked by a major effort to explore the Atlantic and create colonies in the middle and southern Americas.

1st Bishop:  I don't know what the fuck you're talking about but it sounds good to me.  OK, how long is it going to take to get the logistics together?  I mean, be real.

Royal courtier:  Oh, a couple of hundred years.  Maybe quicker.

1st Bishop:  OK, I'm sold.  Provided someone else does the paperwork.  Lunch, anyone?

2nd Bishop:  Let's see if we can can get a table at Ahmet and Isaac's.  I'm totally into that North African food.

- ironyroad

January 23, 2009 at 10:32pm

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“I'm reading an interesting book now about Jews in Reniassance Italy with an interesting thesis. The author claims that the invention of the Jewish ghetto was actually an evolution towards tolerance. Whereas before Jews were forbidden to settle or live in cities (and when they did it was only by temporary permit and to a priveliged few) , the establishment of a ghetto was a de facto recognition and acceptance of a pemanent presence, which was unheard of before. Albeit with all the restrictions and humiliations that accrued to such a life.”

Noga1, I am mistrustful of theories that take some awful social experience and claim that is actually served to advance some beneficial cause.

I have read papers arguing that “Slavery was actually beneficial for Black people because…, ‘ or theories suggesting that “pogroms helped bring Jews into modernity.

In any case the Jewish ghetto was operational only in Western and central Europe but not in Eastern Europe were the majority of Jews lived.

- jacksondyer

January 23, 2009 at 11:31pm

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Nogal: My apologies. I have been a blogginghead today and have largely been dealing with anti-mensches and I totally misread your locution. Mea culpa.

- liberal reformer

January 24, 2009 at 1:06am

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Jackson: Could you kindly mention the title of the book you're reading? It sounds very interesting. Thank you.

- liberal reformer

January 24, 2009 at 1:08am

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Ironyroad: There is no telling what may set off that lurid imagination of yours, is there?

Always a laughter to read your inventions, but, hilarity-wise,  this one has not quite reached the level of the Afghani Cheers, which I remember with special fondness.  (I always regretted not saving it on my computer. I probably thought CR would last forever.)

BTW, I am also reading another book about the relationship between the Jewish and Arab communities in Spain during the Middle Ages and it turns out that it was not so different from what is happening today, The main difference is in the reason for the hostility, not the substance of it.

Jackson:  the book I mentioned above is this:

www.amazon.ca/.../ref=sr_1_1

And it's not at all a type of apologia for the treatment of Jews. Just a rethinking of historical processes. It is one of the tragic aspects of Jewish history that, given the choice between constantly being uprooted, mass expulsion and ghettoization, medieval Jews would gladly opt for the ghetto, which at least offered some semblance of  stability and longer-term planning.

- noga1

January 24, 2009 at 8:01am

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...liberal reformer said:

Nogal: My apologies. I have been a blogginghead today and have largely been dealing with anti-mensches and I totally misread your locution. Mea culpa..

What name do you post under there?

- basman

January 24, 2009 at 9:37am

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"Jackson: Could you kindly mention the title of the book you're reading? It sounds very interesting. Thank you."

It's not a book, I had in mind different articles that I read on these issues over the years.

I wish someone would write a book on it.

- jacksondyer

January 24, 2009 at 11:14am

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Thanks for the reference, Noga. I'll take a look at the book when I get a chance.

- jacksondyer

January 24, 2009 at 11:16am

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Noga, I have the Afghan (Baluchistani) Cheers thing -- it's only a page and a half long.  I thought maybe I could get it to you as an attachment, but when I tried both the "private message" and the email options on your TNR ID page, neither seem to work.  There's no point in posting it here as the formatting will vanish.  Grrrrr.

- ironyroad

January 24, 2009 at 2:21pm

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I tried to send you an email through your TNR ID page but it doesn't seem to work, either. I got a message saying the forums are disabled.

- noga1

January 24, 2009 at 4:56pm

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Try marting_1@comcast.net

- ironyroad

January 24, 2009 at 5:45pm

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Thanks, IR.

"She's got too many notions. She is going to join me in a sisterhood of suffering whether she likes it or not."

:-)

- noga1

January 25, 2009 at 10:33am

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At Foreign Policy Marc Lynch asks, How badly did Gaza poison the well? (via memeorandum) Needless to say, Lynch opposed Israel's effort to defend its citizens. But here's one of his conclusions: There's no question that Gaza has weakened the hand of moderates

- Anonymous

January 27, 2009 at 6:43am

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I'm sort of wondering about Marty's silence after Obama's interview with Al-Arabyia.

"Now, Israel is a strong ally of the United States. They will not stop being a strong ally of the United States. And I will continue to believe that Israel's security is paramount. But I also believe that there are Israelis who recognize that it is important to achieve peace. They will be willing to make sacrifices if the time is appropriate and if there is serious partnership on the other side."

" there are Israelis who recognize that it is important to achieve peace"?? Oh, really? Does he imply that among the massive population of Israel, there are a few Israelis who believe in peace? And why would he say this, unless he had been listening too long and too well to his friend Rashid? Has he really bought into the fallacy, propagated by Carter. Mearrsheimer and ilk that Israel don't want peace, only some do?

" They will be willing to make sacrifices " Not enough violently-reciprocated sacrifices so far?

Wink-nudge. Someone on TV was saying that the only thing he didn't say in explicitly sucking up to the Arab street was that after all his middle name is Hussein.  

- noga1

January 28, 2009 at 8:32am

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