The New Republic

Gosh, I didn't know there were vicious, fanatic Islamists who want to kill all the Jews and probably all Americans and other infidels too. And here, like Bush-the-Idiot and his pet moron, Martin Peretz, I have been basing all of my views about what is to be done on the belief that, if Israel and the United States will only be nice to Moslems, they will strew flowers at our feet and hail our wonderfulness. The scales have fallen from my eyes. Thank god Peretz is here to reveal the truth.

- roidubouloi

March 26, 2010 at 1:26pm

In spite of such evidence, some people still want the Israeli government to negotiate with Hamas. Gosh!

- amidut

March 26, 2010 at 1:55pm

nice to know that Hamas has problems with their extremist splinter, though odd that a Sunni group (JTJ) seems to be adopting the Shi'a martyr complex. does this not go way beyond sociopath into dangerous psychopath? no wonder Egypt never wanted Gaza. name-calling delegitimizes the credibility of the name-caller.

- K2K

March 26, 2010 at 1:56pm

roidubouloi "Gosh, I didn't know there were vicious, fanatic Islamists who want to kill all the Jews and probably all Americans and other infidels too." Is this all you can say about it, roi? Can't even deal honestly with a hateful message without attacking Bush? Why even mention Bush in this context? As for Peretz you seem to hate him because he makes you aware of uncomfortable truths. Yes there are people out there wanting to kill all Jews, and yet some would tell us that we don't need to take them seriously. We should just take it for granted and "move on" and relish the moral progress the human race has made in the last few centuries.

- jdyer

March 26, 2010 at 2:57pm

That's awful to have to read, but I don't understand the purpose of the advice. We don't want peace because some of the opposition are wretched human beings? Or we will never obtain peace for that reason so we should stop trying?

- Nusholtz

March 27, 2010 at 3:27am

Aware of what truth, jackson? That there are fanatic Moslems who want to kill Jews and Americans and maybe everyone in the West? I know that. Anyone who can read a newspaper knows that. A Peretzian argument goes something like this: "Read this hideous stuff that Moslems say they want to do to us. Now, how can you liberal peace-nik pansies say that we were wrong to invade Iraq when there are Moslem fanatics out there trying to kill us? You deluded liberals think that if we just speak nicely to the Moslems, they will stop wanting to kill us. Don't you see how ridiculous that is?" So, to unpack my comments, highly compressed I will admit: First, it is not liberals with delusions about the Moslem world. It is the neo-con right with delusions about the Moslem world. For one, they had the delusion that we would be greeted in Iraq as liberators. Hence the reference to Bush whose administration was possessed of that very delusion. To paraphrase myself, "You neo-cons think that if we just show the Moslems our power and take care of some of their nasty business for them, they will stop wanting to kill us." The left does not believe that the problem of Moslem fanatics is going to be solved by talking nicely. Obama does not believe that if he goes to Eqypt or Turkey and makes a speech that is respectful of Moslems he will appease the fanatics, in Iran or anywhere else. What he is doing is trying to put a bit of a wedge between the fanatics who are implacable and others who are supportive of the fanatics because of perceived American hostility toward the Moslem world. That is a smart thing to do, to try and drain away popular support for fanatics, particularly since the speech-making is so inexpensive. Peretz greets this small but smart tactic with derision. I greet Peretz with ridicule for his mental incapacity, his inability to understand almost anything that is going on other than the state of his own spleen, and his singularly detrimental contribution to the national discussion. Second, part of the neo-con nuttiness is the belief that, because Moslem fanatics want to kill Jews and us, taking the battle to someone who despises us but is not engaged in trying to kill us somehow magically defeats the fanatics. Or, to put it another way, just because you do something while declaring that you are fighting terrorism doesn't mean that you are or that what you are doing will be efficacious. Exhibit 1, Iraq, Exhibit 2, Afghanistan where we didn't get the job down so that we could go after Exhibit 1 where we had no useful business. Third, it is a canard that liberals or any other sane person thinks that we don't have a serious problem with Moslem fanatics trying to kill us. The criticisms of right-wing policy and practice that come from the left are not based on the argument that there aren't really Moslem fanatics trying to kill us. The criticisms that come from the left are that the policies and practices of the right are stupid or pointless. They either don't protect us from the fanatics or make matters worse. Exhibit 1, Iraq, Exhibit 2, Afghanistan where we didn't get the job down so that we could go after Exhibit 1 where we had no useful business. Exhibit 3, where we are belatedly taking an interest commensurate with the risk to us. Exhibit 4, Bush's Iran policy of alienating the allies we need while being unable to make good on his threats. Peretz perpetually tries to distract us from the stupidity of the right by holding up the fact that there are indeed Moslem fanatics trying to kill us. WE KNOW THAT! The question is what to do about it. This sort of thing by Peretz is merely his declaration that he has nothing useful to contribute on the key question. I agree with him. He has nothing useful to contribute on the key question. That's what I was saying, as economically as possible. I think Peretz is properly ridiculed, not for calling our attention to an uncomfortable truth, but for calling our attention to the blindingly obvious and pretending that he is calling attention either to an important and insufficiently recognized truth or to some policy alternative that we have neglected. He is doing neither. He is just repeating the obvious as if it some how credits his bankrupt policy ideas and his lack of any others.

- roidubouloi

March 27, 2010 at 11:22pm

Oops, yet another bunch of typos. "Exhibit 1, Iraq, Exhibit 2, Afghanistan where we didn't get the job done so that we could go after Exhibit 1 where we had no useful business. Exhibit 3, Pakistan, where we are belatedly taking an interest commensurate with the risk to us. Exhibit 4, Bush's Iran policy of alienating the allies we need while being unable to make good on his threats."

- roidubouloi

March 27, 2010 at 11:41pm

Some of the posters on these blogs declare that they are not really worried by the naked and concentrated hatred directed at Jews. But of course they are mistaken not to take that into account if they want to understand better what is happening in the world today: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7078771.ece "Saudi Arabia is pouring hundreds of millions of pounds into Islamist groups in the Balkans, some of which spread hatred of the West and recruit fighters for jihad in Afghanistan. According to officials in Macedonia, Islamic fundamentalism threatens to destabilise the Balkans. Strict Wahhabi and Salafi factions funded by Saudi organisations are clashing with traditionally moderate local Muslim communities. Fundamentalists have financed the construction of scores of mosques and community centres as well as handing some followers up to £225 a month. They are expected not only to grow beards but also to persuade their wives to wear the niqab, or face veil, a custom virtually unknown in the liberal Islamic tradition of the Balkans.... Sulejman Rexhepi, leader of the Islamic community in Macedonia, said a number of mosques had been forcibly taken over by radical groups. Four in central Skopje are no longer under the control of the official Islamic authorities. New imams claim they have been “spontaneously” installed by the “people”. “Their so-called Wahhabi teachings are completely alien to our traditions and to the essence of Islam, which is a tolerant and inclusive religion,” said Rexhepi. In some mosques believers are being told that Macedonia, which sent 200 soldiers to Iraq and Afghanistan, has been tricked into supporting a crusade against Islam spearheaded by Britain and America. Radical clerics have shown footage from Afghanistan, Iraq and the Palestinian territories to illustrate their claims that the West is waging war on Islam. Rahman, a 35-year-old cab driver from Skopje, Macedonia’s capital, said he had stopped going to his local mosque since it was taken over by extremists. “Following the Haiti earthquake the new imam said God would punish the West for their wars in Afghanistan and Iraq with natural disasters,” he said.... The West has put considerable political and financial efforts into helping build democracy in Bosnia following its civil war in the 1990s. Saudi organisations have also asserted considerable influence, giving more than £450m to build more than 150 mosques and Islamic centres. In Macedonia, Fatmir, a former disc jockey, explained how he became an adherent of Salafism. The father of two has grown a beard and instructed his wife to wear a niqab. He now makes his living by selling Islamist literature. “Ours is the Islam of the 21st century,” he said."

- noga1

March 28, 2010 at 9:24am

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall anyone on these blogs, from any part of the political spectrum, so much as suggesting that they are not really worried about the naked and concentrated hatred directed at Jews, at Americans, or at anyone else. I don't recall anyone saying that they are unconcerned about either Moslem extremists or terrorism in general. I don't recall anyone saying they are unconcerned about Iran obtaining nuclear weapons, although there are some who think that that is manageable. (I would prefer to err very much on the side of caution on that question if there is a practicable way to do so). I also recall quite a few expressing that, in directing our energies and resources toward Iraq, we were failing to address much more immediate threats emanating from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Our relationship with Saudi Arabia, in particular, looks very much like appeasement. Peretz in particular seems to think he makes a useful contribution by constantly offering up evidence of the extent of the hatred and fanaticism. I think that is only because he doesn't have anything useful to say to the point that should be our constant focus. What is to be done? He also seems to think that, in the absence of any useful ideas of his own, pointing out the hatred and extremism is a sufficient reproach to anyone who does not agree with his witless strategy of (1) doing nothing other than complaining or (2) threatening force whether or not we have the means or intention of making good the threat or (3) using force against anyone within reach who he hates without a moment's thought as to whether that actually improves our situation or makes it worse. What matters to Peretz is only whether you hate him and he hates you. In his world, nothing else, no consideration of efficacy, is important. If the threats were not in fact so serious, we could afford a bit of Peretz's mania in the public debate. Because they are so serious, we cannot. He constantly distracts from what ought to concern us.

- roidubouloi

March 28, 2010 at 10:20am

roidubouloi "Aware of what truth, jackson? That there are fanatic Moslems who want to kill Jews and Americans and maybe everyone in the West? I know that. Anyone who can read a newspaper knows that. " Everyone knows this? How do you know that? Nor does every newspaper print stories about it. (Not to mention the decline in readership) If the whole issue is so obvious to you, why don't you just ignore it! Hamas and other Muslim extremist hatred of Jews (comparable to that of the Nazis) hasn't stopped many leftists, especially in Europe, from supporting them. It has also led to some pretty ugly attacks on Jews in France and elsewhere. How much of this do you think "everyone knows?" It is worth reiterating and I am glad Marty posted that disgusting screed by Hamas people. I suspect that as a good moral progressive you problems admitting to yourself the extent of murderous hatred against Jews. "A Peretzian argument goes something like this" I am not interested in your fantasies, Roi.

- jdyer

March 28, 2010 at 11:44am

Yes, jackson. You think Americans don't know that there are fanatic Moslems who want to kill us? Do you think Americans really give a shit whether there are fanatic Moslems who want to kill Jews too? Oh, yeah, right. They want to kill us AND the Jews. Do you suppose that if the leftists who support Moslem extremists were reminded that the Moslem extremists are extreme that this would diminish their support? Peretz wastes the time and energy of anyone who bothers to read him by his inability to focus on any concrete problem. That would be bad enough, but his use of this material, often, as a means of criticizing those who actually are trying to do something concrete is nothing short of disgusting. It is because I am realistic about the threat that I am so appalled by Peretz. I don't need Martin Peretz to tell me that Hamas wants to kill all the Jews. Do you? There are undoubtedly people who would benefit from being made aware of this. Do you think they are the ones reading TNR? The only purpose served by posts such is this is making Peretz feel virtuous despite his lack of a single useful idea and to legitimize his pointless criticism of whomever he wants to criticize. "I may be useless to the world, but at least I know that there are fanatics who want to kill Jews. Whatever inane criticism I make is justified because at least I know, and you don't, that there are fanatics who want to kill Jews." This stuff is the equivalent of loyalty oaths. Every time Peretz's head is empty, everyone is supposed to stand up and swear yet again that, yes, we know that there are fanatics who want to kill Jews. If it makes you feel better to read this stuff, more righteous, more angry, better equipped to understand the world, why then, have at it. There is so much of it on the internet you could fill the pages of TNR with it 1,000 times over. So you don't even have to depend on TNR to get it to you. For me, if I learn nothing, have no new idea, no new insight from reading TNR, then it pointless trash. And I don't mind saying so. I am not interested in your fantasies or suspicions, jackson, about what I do or do not admit to myself. To paraphrase Bismarck, "Suspect what you like. It is all the same to me."

- roidubouloi

March 28, 2010 at 12:21pm

On the Balkans story Noga references above: it's probably been forgotten, if ever noticed, but one of the weirdest and in some ways saddest incidents of the Balkan wars in the 1990s was the decision by UNHCR (?? or another refugees agency) to request that Pakistan take in Muslim refugees from Bosnia. The refugees were not especially keen on this, although they were happy to get out of the camp, but the decision to ask Pakistan was entirely based on religious affiliation rather than any other criteria. This decision was vehemently criticized by several people at the time, and Daniel Cohn-Bendit (a European Parliament member then) said acidly that it would be like asking Italy to take in Chinese refugees who happen to be Catholic on the grounds that the Vatican is there. This indeed led eventually to a scene -- covered by some of the German press, at least -- in which a crowd of curious Pakistanis gathered at the Islamabad airport to greet their fellow Muslim refugees, to be shocked to their marrow when the doors opened and the passengers disembarked, many of them women in sleeveless blouses and short skirts fanning themselves and saying "wow, it's hot!"

- ironyroad

March 28, 2010 at 3:09pm

roidubouloi Yes, jackson. "You think Americans don't know that there are fanatic Moslems who want to kill us? Do you think Americans really give a shit whether there are fanatic Moslems who want to kill Jews too? Oh, yeah, right. They want to kill us AND the Jews. Do you suppose that if the leftists who support Moslem extremists were reminded that the Moslem extremists are extreme that this would diminish their support?" Lots of leading questions lots of assumption, nothing you suppose "I think" is what I think. But then is the only way you can win an argument, Roi. "Peretz wastes the time and energy of anyone who bothers to read him by his inability to focus on any concrete problem." So why do you waste your time reading him, then. Change the channel, buster.

- jdyer

March 28, 2010 at 10:01pm

"..., but the decision to ask Pakistan was entirely based on religious affiliation rather than any other criteria..." The ignorance of people about ethnic-religious affiliations can be quite astounding. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard Canadians speaking of Iranians as Arabs. Some errors are quite funny, like the time a Canadian news announcer spoke about Israel's war against Lebanon and Afghanistan.

- noga1

March 28, 2010 at 11:07pm

" . . . Canadians speaking of Iranians as Arabs." Now that is embarrassing. Although to be fair a lot of people don't even believe that Canada exists as a sovereign nation (at a conference once I met a woman whose husband was a Canadian diplomat based in the Rome embassy -- she said a lot of Italians were confused by the very notion of Canada).

- ironyroad

March 28, 2010 at 11:19pm

I like to dump on Peretz, jackson, because his stuff is so evil and poisonous. I don't read him because he says anything interesting or useful. He is useful only as a foil with which to make the point that views such is his are useless. I hold his writings up as an example of what we should all detest. You, jackson, like basman, seem not to understand the use of the rhetorical question. Don't be so literal. I am not asking what you think. You think what Peretz says is useful; I think it is garbage. I am pointing out that the notion that anyone reading TNR needs to be told by Peretz that there are fanatical Islamists who want to kill Americans and Jews is ridiculous. It is.

- roidubouloi

March 29, 2010 at 12:45am

Yes ironyroad, I knew you would not resist taking a potshot at hapless Canadians. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGugFhokvII

- noga1

March 29, 2010 at 8:41am

I've always wondered, since I was a kid, what a "hap" actually is and why are some of us often without it . . . e.g. Canadians.

- ironyroad

March 29, 2010 at 6:28pm