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Go Home Tell Us What You Really Think

APRIL 2, 2008

Tell Us What You Really Think

BY MICHAEL CROWLEY

A Hillary supporter in Pennsylvania to the New York Observer's Jason Horowitz: 

“She’s got this one locked,” said Mary Yates, a
67-year-old retired worker in a chemical factory. “No Muslim is going
to be president. No drug addict. If Hillary isn’t the one, everyone I
know will vote for John McCain.”

As Horowitz notes, "Her campaign may not be at liberty to say so, but that sort of
sentiment--factually misguided though it may be--is just what the
Clinton campaign needs right now."

--Michael Crowley

SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS

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43 comments

A campaign that can't win except with help from people like this is not a campaign worth keeping alive. Hillary, give it up.

- BHLnyc

April 2, 2008 at 11:41am

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Mary Yates is obviously a Foster-killing lesbian.

- williamyard

April 2, 2008 at 11:45am

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"Yes because this IS Christian Country dammit! I ain't 'bout to stand thar' 'n watch my nation vote one of them thar' mooslems into being prezdent." Quote heard in the check-out line at the Pig 'N Whistle of Route 23 in Kentucky. When pressed the itinerant coal miner cum hog farmer said that he felt "We need a real 'Merican that can go into Bostonia or somewheres like that and take out them thar' Ally Kada tourists n' snipers 'n all and Hillary's a go getter. Heck...anyone broad that can stay married to that no-good hillbilly fool this long is stronger than them 'nam vets or mooslems any day." He spit tobaccy on the floor of the Pig N Whistle and walked out with his six pack of High Life.

- singlespeed

April 2, 2008 at 11:45am

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It is the sentiment that the Clinton campaign needs and apparently the sentiment they try to cultivate.

- matthawk

April 2, 2008 at 11:46am

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The most bitter Hillary's supporters trend older (more likely to randomly drop dead than Obama's young supporters) and working class (bad healthcare or no healthcare). Because of these important factors (old age + bad healthcare), I'd estimate that 2% of them will be dead by November anyway.

It's too bad Hillary couldn't pass healthcare in 1994. More of these poor bitter wretches might have received the preventive care over the years that would allow them to survive to vote for McCain in November out of spite.

- virginiacentrist

April 2, 2008 at 11:54am

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VC, as one of Obama's more bitter supporters ("I hope Hillary burns in Hell"), mind clueing us in on your demographics?  Thanks!

- Lymon1

April 2, 2008 at 11:57am

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Good ol' Pennsyltucky.

- bcbaird

April 2, 2008 at 11:59am

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It _that's_ what the Clinton campaign needs now, then it's even more moribund than I thought.

Is this really all she has to run on now? How bankrupt is that?

- sullydog

April 2, 2008 at 12:02pm

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Lymon:

hahaha. I'm younger, educated, and I have good healthcare!

I'd say that I'm at least 1000 times more likely to be alive in November than Hillary's most bitter supporters.

While I wouldn't vote for McCain (I'd write in "Hillary (I hate you) Clinton"), I'd probably go to Denver to protest her nomination...

But I don't imagine that's going to happen...

- virginiacentrist

April 2, 2008 at 12:07pm

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Oh, so the misinformed opinion of one  67 year  old retired factory worker sums up Clinton's campaign and supporters.

Clinton - that shrew.  That castrating bitch.

Obama the Adamic post racial, cross generational Aloha Rainbow Warrior savior of us all.  

Have I summed up TNR's position?

- dubyadoubte

April 2, 2008 at 12:22pm

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VC -- I'm sure the older Clinton supporters you gleefully wish death upon will be thankful that you won't vote for McCain.  And that you only (I think) wished them death and not eternal fire.  Thanks for the semi-demo report!

- Lymon1

April 2, 2008 at 12:36pm

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I don't really like how Mrs. Clinton has been running her campaign, but I wouldn't want to read too much into what one obviously deranged and possibly senile voter says.  

In my misbegotten youth, I used to say that "if they paint a pig red and put it on a soap box, I'd vote for it." (Red being the electoral colour of the Liberal Party of Canada.) As if to test my mettle, election after election the Liberal candidate in my riding (district) was barely more sentient than a pig and possibly quite a lot more corrupt - but, painted red and standing on his soap box, he still managed to get my vote (one hand firmly holding the nose).  I wish I could say I am more enlightened these days ... still.

I suspect that most Democrats, when it comes right down to it - after eight years of Shrub and with a 71-yo version of him running for the Republicans - will likely vote for the nominee no matter which of them gets it.  The question is how widespread this ignorant sentiment is among Independents and thinking Republicans, and so far, there is no evidence that this kind of an attitude has much traction.  

Any way, "muslim drug addict" is probably Ms. Yates PC slang for "black": she and her ilk do not want to sound racist ("I won't vote for a N**") and prefer to come across as Christian bigots, which is much more respectable.  They form a part of the electorate, no doubt, but not that much - I hope ...

- icarusr

April 2, 2008 at 12:45pm

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dubya,

You left out the part about Obama spitting on dirt, rubbing it into a paste, and using it to coat the eyes of a blind man, who thereafter could see.

Also, in some translations--correct me if I'm wrong--doesn't Hillary occasionally manifest as ten billion locusts descending on crops just before the harvest?

Sorry for the confusion; I'm a little behind in studying the Catechism.

- williamyard

April 2, 2008 at 12:45pm

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And of course, even Christ had a Judas.

No matter what one thinks of Mrs. Clinton, I agree with Dubya that the rantings of those who might support her are hardly the stuff with which to beat her.  This is no different from Farrakhan's endorsement of Mr. Obama.

- icarusr

April 2, 2008 at 12:57pm

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Really, TNR's entered self-parody land. So the sum and substance of the support for a major Dem presidential candidate-- one whose vote total is within a hair of her rival's vote total-- is old white racists?  

Who are about to kick the bucket, thanks in no small measure, to their "bad healthcare" (hahahahaha! Suckers!).

Again, I voted for Obama. He's a decent guy. But is it really necessary to remake the last decent thinking man's political forum on the web into another tribal pissfest a la KosPowerlineLittleGreenFiredoggies?

- teplukhin2you

April 2, 2008 at 12:58pm

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Yard:

yes, that is Obama's health care plan, unfortunately pretty well limited to all those who are in reaching distance of the hem of his cloak.

Catering costs are real low at Obama rallies, though.  Amazing how far ten loaves and three fishes will go.

- dubyadoubte

April 2, 2008 at 12:59pm

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Looks like Hillary has successfully gotten her message out, hasn't she? ("...did he sell or share?"..."cocaine, cocaine, cocaine"....."I take him at his word"....."there is no evidence of that"...."as far as I know"...)

But really, she can't be blamed for the misconceptions that her supporters might have about the other guy, and, after all, a vote is vote.  Right?

(And anyway, how about Obama playing the race card with that radical preacher, who, of course, Hillary would not have sat in the pews and listened to for five minutes.  No, not her.  She would have been too busy dodging sniper fire in Bosnia and pulling the wounded little girls to safety, as she scooped up incoming grenades and lobbed them back at the enemy, while Chelsea inserted the IV to give blood to the soldiers who were shot up and being evacuated by the ambulance that Hillary had commandered, hopped up into the cab of, and driven away to the hospital in, shaking her fist at the hills and shouting, "MAKE MY DAY, YOU SERBIAN MOTHERFUCKERS!".....)

Now, that's the one I want on the receiving end of one of those 3AM phone calls.  Not some wuss like John McCain who couldn't keep from being captured by a bunch of those Viet Congs, and let them torture him for five years.  Or that slick pretty boy, Obama, who can talk a good game, but doesn't know shit about everyday life in the big, bad world beyond our shores.  Places like Indonesia and Kenya.

- vanwurs

April 2, 2008 at 1:11pm

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Hm . . . I've always been a tad worried about the intense, almost ethereal stupidity of voters.  It's one of those little downsides of American democracy, I find.

- ironyroad

April 2, 2008 at 1:13pm

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Dubyadoubte, you loon!

Nobody but Hillary's deeply embittered supporters uses language like "shrew" and "castrating bitch." Obama's supporters see, and treat, Hillary Clinton as a human being -- a very poor example of a human being -- and as a corrupt, entrenched, cynical DC elitist. We don't see her as a "castrating bitch" or as a "sin-woman with filthy dirty-pillows." That's just your bizarre fantasy, and your way of deflecting the many legitimate criticisms Obama supporters lob your way.

Similarly, only Hillary's embittered supporters are obsessed with the color of Obama's skin; you guys are constantly accusing us of accusing you of being racist, even though Obama's supporters seem to try to avoid discussing race whenever they can.

Inconveniently, though, I am starting to get the impression that the majority of Hillary's current supporters are racist. Not a fragment of her base: a majority. There's a creepy, menacing subtext to so much of what you people say and write about my candidate. And there's something creepy and offensive about Clinton's coded warnings, in her conversations with superdelegates, that a black man can never be elected president.

At the end of the day, this post makes clear what all but the Lymons and Dubyadoubtes of the world have already figured out: that HRC long ago gave up running as a Democrat; she's running as a "Limbaugh Democrat" -- who knew such a creature could exist? -- and she's likely to win Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Kentucky by scraping the bottom of the Democratic electorate for every sticky, slimy piece of retrograde racist trash she can find. These are states where a hard core of deeply, unapologetically racist whites still feel comfortable spewing their venom at black Americans. In other overwhelmingly white states like Iowa (where I caucused) and Washington, that cultural moment has passed.

Clinton's campaign, in a sense, represents the last period on the long ellipsis at the end of Jim Crow. If a black guy is still totally unacceptable to you as a candidate -- so unacceptable that you would vote for the worst, weakest Democratic candidate in the last 20 years, a candidate who has nothing but contempt for you, who talks to you like a child and lies as a first resort -- then Hillary is the one for you. Of course, you're also the kind of voter whom the Democratic Party was always destined to lose in the years ahead.

- Hungarian Great Bela Tarr

April 2, 2008 at 1:37pm

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Us educated folks may not be interested in Hillary's daily blather, but she is not appealing to us. Her focus is on her base, around half the Dem voters, white working class and poor whites and white elderly folks and white women. A fair number of these folks are hurting and they are frightened for themselves and their families. Some significant number of them have a tendency to blame others for their plight, categorically.

If they have any doubts about Obama, all they hear is from the Clinton campaign, sometimes with drum flourishes and sometimes with a whisper or a wink: "He's trying to steal votes." "Obama's Minister, who he is very close to, is a hatemonger." "Black Man." "Plagarist" "Elitist."(As if Hill and Bill haven"t become greatly affectionate with the perks of higher office and wealth, and as if they weren't both deeply intelligent and sophisticated people.) "Obama"s not to be trusted." "The Rs will use Wright to defeat Obama and we"ll all lose." "Muslim?" "Muslim!"

Negative campaigning works! But can and has splashed back big time on Hillary.

Ironically, if Hillary had courage and real confidence in her core values, she would demonstrate her character and Presidential strength and fitness by confronting the racists and denouncing the fear mongers. This is the only way she can win and win fairly: By showing Democratic(and Ind. and R.) voters at least a glimmer of the sort of Presidential leadership that so many of us desire and that our country so sorely needs.

I have great faith in the American people, including those at least partially motivated by racial or gender fear or bias. While some so-called Americans will take their venom and ignorance to their graves, many are willing to be educated and sometimes they will take a risk. But they're sure not getting much illumination from the Clintons. Hillary is not a great leader. It appears that she will not rise to the occasion.

- sabatia

April 2, 2008 at 1:39pm

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People believe outlandish things on both sides. I heard an Obama supporter once say Hillary Clinton killed Vince Foster. That she committed murder. I mean, can you believe tha...What? Oh...Scaife supporting Clinton? Really? Just because she sat down with him? He's forgot the whole "she killed Vince Foster" thing? What kind of voodoo witchcraft is she practicing?

Err. Sorry. I have recently heard an Obama supporter suggest Hillary Clinton is a witch.

- adamvaught

April 2, 2008 at 1:48pm

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Let's send all of Hillary's poor dumb saps over to the other side this fall. Who needs 'em? We've got the Youth Vote!

- teplukhin2you

April 2, 2008 at 1:55pm

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Hungarian Great Bela Tarr: no, sorry, I think Hillary is a bitch, I only wish she had been a castrating one years ago and did a Bobbitt on Bill thereby preventing the whole Bush saga. I don't think the majority of Hillary supporters are racists. Both my parents are Hillary supporters in Pa. and they can't understand my intense hatred for Hillary. And my mother also has heard all of the despicable rumours about Obama that I had to tell her are untrue.

It certainly is true, Pa. is not very sophisticated and it trends older. It is also very self-segregating (or was), but I won't condemn the people there quite so easily.

It is bizarre thing to say, but McCain has been running a far more decent campaign against the Democrats, than Hillary is against her fellow Democrat. I saw Lanny Davis (a Shillary Hill) on Fox asking questions about Wright last night, and how perhaps it makes him unelectable. And then you watch McCains people act so much better as people, truly depressing for Democrats.

- blackton

April 2, 2008 at 2:02pm

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tep, hey if McCain gets the geritol vote and the Dems get the rest, fine by me. For every old fart that goes to McCain (and a lot of them are going to him regardless) Obama is bringing new voters to the process. Hillary appeals to the same demographic, what the hell is the point of that? And you know that McCain will run as a Conservative Democrat in the fall (on Letterman he was Mr. Bleeding heart for homeowners, no specific solutions of course but seemed empathetic).

- blackton

April 2, 2008 at 2:12pm

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blackie: every four years we trot out this old canard about the Mighty Youth Vote, and every four years it falls way short of the older vote. The math is simple: aside from illegal immigrants, the population is aging. <30 year-olds's share of the electorate is less than half what it was in 1968, and falling steadily. Add to this the fact that barely 40% of young people vote, compared with around 70% of older people, and it's obvious that older voters are far more important to victory in the fall than younger ones. Esp in the battleground states of FL, PA, OH...

- teplukhin2you

April 2, 2008 at 2:29pm

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These boards are almost as good as the Dem election itself.  I just grab more popcorn and gaze in amazement!

Oh, and PA is Pittsburgh in the west, Philly in the east, and Alabama in the center.  Or so I've been told.

Ah, yes, teppy, the much-anticipated youth vote.  I've been waiting for them to show up since 1972.

- butchie b

April 2, 2008 at 2:33pm

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teppy, yeah, normally I would agree with you, but at times I think the Dems can run a potted plant and win. McCain's only shot is to run as a Conservative Democrat (who was asked to be Kerry's VP). If he runs as a psuedo-Democrat, he has a good shot, but don't pretend that if he runs as a Reagan Republican he can win, because he can't.

- blackton

April 2, 2008 at 2:39pm

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Hungarian Great Bela Tarr:  (cool name, by the way):

You state:  Nobody but Hillary's deeply embittered supporters uses language like "shrew" and "castrating bitch."

Shrew has been used.     O.K, I'll admit the exact phrase "castrating bitch" has not been used, only the word "castrati" to describe any male who would  run as Clinton's V.P.  Draw your own conclusions.  

The Obama cult of personality at TNR has become a self-parody.  That he crosses race and generational divides  because he was born in Hawaii of mixed heritage. So was Don Ho.  

What I see from the Obama camp is anger that Clinton is staying in the race. Much commentary that McCain now can focus on the general election.  Yes, that is the advantage of actually securing the nomination by winning enough delegates, a feat that Obama has not seemed able to achieve.      

And to address your last point  - if Obama is the Democratic nominee I will vote for him.  Don't presume that I don't support Obama in the primaries  because of race.  . Could it be mainly that he's a half term U.S. senator? That a mere four years ago he was a State Senator?  That his toughest opponent to date was Alan Keyes?

To use terms like  "Jim Crow" and "rascist white trash"  is unnecessary.  

- dubyadoubte

April 2, 2008 at 2:46pm

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McCain will have a good shot at winning if he hits upon a way to appeal to Hillary's supporters, esp white Reagan Dems in PA OH MI and MO, and hispanics everywhere else.

IMHO that wouldn't be too difficult to do if he were to

1) make a serious outreach effort to hispanics in the southwest and

2) put Romney on the ticket and talk up a bold and innovative manufacturing-focused version of the industrial policy lite platform that Romney, to good effect, proposed in Michigan early this year.

I don't view either of these as far-fetched. I'd bet money on both of them occurring, in fact.

Which is one reason why I find this endless snarkfest against Hillary's supporters not just annoying but dumb and potentially self-defeating, in best Democratic snatching-defeat-from-jaws-of-victory fashion.

- teplukhin2you

April 2, 2008 at 3:02pm

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Dubyadoubte, I'm surprised to hear myself defending my use of "racist trash" (I didn't say "white trash," for what it's worth) . . . but damn! Look at the quote in the post.

I know that the Internet is an untrustworthy indicator of how most Americans feel (if it weren't so, we'd be running against Ron Paul, not John McCain), but there does seem to be a distinctly trashy flavor to the pro-Hillary comments I see on sites like WashingtonPost.com, Politico.com, etc. And the obsession with Wright only makes sense to me in the context of Clinton supporters' (and the establishment media's) racism. Seriously, why the hell would anyone be obsessing over this? Michael Crowley is shocked -- shocked! -- that a black person could believe that AIDS had been invented as a tool of genocide. Well, a lot of black people do believe it. Obama obviously doesn't. His pastor apparently does. Who cares?

For some folks, though, the Wright flap seems to "confirm" what they've "suspected" about Obama's blackness.

I'm glad that some Clinton supporters, like you, are willing to support Obama in the general. I won't lie and claim that I'm willing to vote for Clinton. Her Democratic Party is not a party I want to belong to. After the last 8 years, I refuse to vote for a candidate who talks to me like a child, who uses fear as a wedge, and who is surrounded by compulsive liars (the Wolfson-Ickes-Penn-Williams claque makes me gag on a daily basis). I'll vote for a write-in candidate, if that's what it comes to.

I mentioned her use of fear as a wedge. That applies, also, to the hoary old arguments about the Supreme Court and John McCain's 100-year war. In the end, the only way I can make my party better is to campaign for the right people and ideas, and withhold my vote when the party takes an unacceptable wrong turn. Clinton would be such a turn. In her support for the Iraq War, her cynicism and insiderism, and her simple incompetence as a politician, she is unacceptable to me. (And I actually believe, for what it's worth, that progressives will be better off, in both the short- and long-term, with a President McCain than with a President Clinton.)

PS: Enough with the cult-of-Obama meme. It's ludicrous! No Democratic candidate in memory has been more substantive, more comfortable giving unscripted answers, than Obama. Anyway, the idea that he appeals to drooling worshippers is incompatible with the other Obama meme: that he's the candidate of ivory-tower elitists. At the law school where I teach, support among the Democratic faculty is nearly unanimous for Obama. Is the idea that law professors are uniquely susceptible to the siren song of empty oratory?

- Hungarian Great Bela Tarr

April 2, 2008 at 3:41pm

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Let the record show that I did not "wish" them death any more than the Onion wished civilization death when they wrote "Human Mortality Rate Holds Steady at 100%"

It's statistics!

- virginiacentrist

April 2, 2008 at 3:57pm

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Tep:

That's a myth. Very few "reagan dems" are supporting Hillary. It's liberal working class voters...there's a huge difference.

Reagan Dems are the people who ran kicking and screaming from Hillary in 1994 and gave the GOP the Congressional majority. These are swing voters and Republicans...

- virginiacentrist

April 2, 2008 at 3:58pm

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"John McCain's 100-year war"

You're a law professor and you repeat a bald-faced lie like this? You don't teach Evidence by chance, do you? Where do you teach?

- teplukhin2you

April 2, 2008 at 4:03pm

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VAC - McCain takes more Dems from Obama than Obama takes GOPers from McCain. It's becoming increasingly clear that GOP operatives see Obama as no less vulnerable than Hillary.

Again, I am *not* for Hillary. I voted for Obama. But we're seeing unmistakable signs of that same old arrogance, the contempt for ordinary white working-class voters who don't share their betters' enthusiasms, that tripped up both Dukakis and Gore.

If we can't manage, for once, to stop being so dismissive, snide and yes, arrogant toward these people, we'll create a huge opening for the GOP in the fall and blow, yet again, what should have been a sure thing.  

- teplukhin2you

April 2, 2008 at 4:29pm

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Tep: Dead on, on the arrogance thing.  DANGEROUS to write off "these people" ...

- icarusr

April 2, 2008 at 6:55pm

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Tep, this is talkback, do you think John and Mary Smith in Missouri give a rats ass what any of us think?

The evidence you see is on the web, most people don't have anywhere near the time or patience to read 1/4 of the shit even here, much less MyDD, politico, Slate, etc.

Besides, objectively speaking TNR is not so much in the tank for Obama as totally sickened by Hillary. Have you noticed how TNR has not gone after anything visceral that McCain has said regarding Wright, or Obama or Hillary? He pretty much sticks to the real issues, and he has never whined about age jokes out there, but joined in when he went on Letterman last night. Tell me one thing that McCain has said that made you feel indignant (as Hillary does when she says she won Michigan and deserves the delegates from there)

- blackton

April 2, 2008 at 7:01pm

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Tep you misread bela. "I mentioned her use of fear as a wedge. That applies, also, to the hoary old arguments about the Supreme Court and John McCain's 100-year war." Hoary: tedious from familiarity; stale. Bela is not saying he believes the lie, he is refuting Hillary's use of these issues. bela later says McCain will be better than Hillary.

- blackton

April 2, 2008 at 7:10pm

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"John McCain's 100-year war"

"You're a law professor and you repeat a bald-faced lie like this? You don't teach Evidence by chance, do you? Where do you teach?"

Um, you might want to go back and read my comment again more slowly. In context, I think it's pretty obvious that I was rejecting the idea that "John McCain's 100-year-war" was a reason to vote for a poor candidate. I'm not "repeating a lie," I'm scoffing at a silly Democratic talking point.

But, yes, on the underlying point, you're right: I'm an idiot. I teach at Dumbfuck U., where the faculty are as slow-witted as the students. Snap!

- Hungarian Great Bela Tarr

April 2, 2008 at 7:22pm

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"I'm scoffing at a silly Democratic talking point"

OK, OK, my apologies. Great nickname, btw.

- teplukhin2you

April 2, 2008 at 7:53pm

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Bela - I think you and I teach at the same law school.

As for being an idiot ... Kids, remember what Oscar said? "We are all in the gutter; but some of us are looking at the stars."  

- icarusr

April 2, 2008 at 8:20pm

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I'm not writing these people off. In fact - I'd wager that more "Reagan Democrats" are voting for Obama than Hillary.

Go tap someone on the shoulder in 2006 and tell them, "Hillary will bring back the Reagan Democrats". They would laugh you out of the room.

What has changed since then? Anything? I can't think of anything...

These are working class liberals who are supporting Hillary....

- virginiacentrist

April 2, 2008 at 8:30pm

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Blackton... hoary I think means white haired... like Old man...I'm gonna look it up...

Not many Obamamaniacs on TNR... just an awful lot of people who don't like The Clintos any more...And no question about it... McCain is far easier to respect and be less afraid of as President  than she is...that kind of delusional pigheadedness with a 3am phone call is all we need.

A lot of us would agree that 4 years of McCain would be a might sight better by now than Clinton redux.

Besides hasn't anyone else seen the polls... 64% of Republicans think Obama would beat McCain and 59% of Democrats think that... of course there's many a slip between the cup and the lip.

Working class liberals supporting Hillary with quotes like those?

- Annabella2

April 3, 2008 at 2:43am

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THe HRC rap is that oh, we don't agree with these people but they are out there in hordes and he can't win! While the only hordes I can detect are the people who hate Hillary, a horde that is growing and glowing like a forest blaze*, like it or not.

*LL Cool J

- psantillana

April 3, 2008 at 5:45am

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