The New Republic

Muslims?? You can't even be a Black guy in somewhat imaginative dress, apparently.

- miceelf

August 24, 2010 at 9:49am

Jon, I agree with you completely on this issue. That said, I'd like to add another reason why the Park51 issue matters. Many Americans are descendants of people belonging to ethno-religious groups who suffered through many of the bigoted stereotypes now on display [e.g., Irish, Roman Catholics, Mormons, Jews,...]. To me, the debate over Park51 goes beyond foreign policy: it strikes at the heart of what it means to me to be an American and why our liberalism is better than the fundamentalism of the enemies whom we fight. What is so distressing to me is that many of the opponents understand this, and yet still publish stuff that is in its bare essence a search for language that both celebrates this liberalism while at the same time redefine it so as to stay on the right side of the angry majority. It is impossible. Our fundamental code, our DNA, is to side with the unpopular. This is why events such as the internment of the Japanese in WWII remain shameful to us. Of course, we are not interning Muslims. But they are an easy target for slander, and as the video you show, raw violent emotion. If being American means anything, if the wars we fight take on any significance whatsoever, then at the very least we can learn from our mistakes, follow our laws, and stop extrapolating the most monstrous elements of the Muslims into the whole. And then we can move on from this ugly debate and focus on jobs.

- rlgordonma

August 24, 2010 at 9:57am

Meanwhile, over at The Spine, Herr Peretz keeps stirring the pot and fanning the fire.

- tnmats

August 24, 2010 at 10:00am

So, the next time some fanatic Muslim suicide bomber kills (or attempts to kill) Americans, can I directly blame Newt Gingrich, Fox News et al for inciting him? Because that's where this is headed very hard, very fast.

- wildboy

August 24, 2010 at 10:12am

wildboy: perhaps, but better yet, you can certainly blame that fracas in the video clip to which Jon refers on the vile Gingrich.

- rlgordonma

August 24, 2010 at 10:19am

lots of jobs to be created building internment camps for "re-education" of 60% of Americans who acknowledge the Constitution and legal rights of the Park51 crew, but still think they have already failed in their mission to promote healing and interfaith dialogue. Not sure how you re-educate the NYC cynics who know Park51 is yet another Manhattan real estate development amateur hour. Or how you re-educate all the American Muslims embarrassed by this one Imam who solely seeks to advance his personal ambition at the expense of other Muslims.

- K2K

August 24, 2010 at 10:20am

K2K, it is not about this Imam. It is about us. And as far as the embarrassed American Muslims go, perhaps you would wish to read [or re-read] "Chutzpah" by Alan Dershowitz, who had really good advice for American Jews constantly embarrassed by their leadership making noise.

- rlgordonma

August 24, 2010 at 10:28am

K2K, not all of the opponents of the mosque "acknowledge the constitution and the legal rights of the park51 crew"- I'd bet it's actually less than half. YOu may be being generous because your are in that minority. We have municipalities all over the country working to ban mosques and generally make life unpleasant for muslims, and just check out the video linked above, not to mention the firebombing and threats of violence. Granting your take on Rauf (his most controversial public statements would be a slow day for Limbaugh and Beck, btw), it really doesn't necessarily justify a lot of the opposition- again, not personal to you, as I noted you are a local and a real sense and are not acting bigoted, BUT many people who also oppose park51 are neither. But, granting your take. The fact that one could point to individual interracial couples in 1965 who were, say, tax cheats, or bigamists, or had unsavory sexual habits, would in no way justify the level of bigotry they faced as a class. There's an unacceptable level of bigotry against muslims right now. Whether Rauf and Park51 are good Rosa Parks-type poster children is irrelevant to that fact.

- miceelf

August 24, 2010 at 10:48am

One more thing K2K: your whining victimized language about internment camps and re-education reeks and is unfortunately representative of those with a weak argument. Perhaps there are only 30% of us who think that this debate should never have taken place. Fine. But I find it both pathetic and hilarious that those who stand with the Governor of AZ in enforcing the law also call for ignoring the law in NYC, and vice-versa for leftists for whom America is not great. Me, I refuse to punish AZ for merely trying to enforce current law which is in its residents' best interests. I also refuse to skirt our fundamental rights granted to all citizens just to fete the emotions of the majority.

- rlgordonma

August 24, 2010 at 10:51am

If Imam Rauf had one-tenth the hostility toward Americans and American values as Andy McCarthy has toward Islam and Muslims, he wouldn't be building an Islamic center in NYC, he'd be dodging Predator drones in a cave somewhere. But Rauf is the one who's being provocative, by asserting his rights under the First Amendment and doing what George Bush and numerous others have urged "peaceful" Muslims to do - show the world that Osama's definition of Islam is a perversion of the creed, and that in the US religious minorities can thrive. This is of course backwards. The provocateurs are the demagogues who stoke fear of the Other for political gain, trashing long-held American values in the process. It is always thus. Demagogues work by convincing the majority that they are under attack by an all-powerful, but hard to see, minority. In the apartheid South, it was uppity blacks, Jews, "pointy-headed intellectuals" and "outside agitators" who threatened to ruin everything white Southerners held dear. In Nazi Germany, it was the perfidious, insidious Jews who threatened to undermine the German state from within. I think we can agree that with the perspective of time that Southern blacks did not have the ability to turn the tables on whites and turn them into second-class citizens, despite the fears expressed at the time, nor were Jews a threat to Germany. In fact, the opposite was the case. Internment camps were used in Germany, but not for Germans who lacked the proper respect for Jews, but instead for Jews and other "undesirables." In the South, people were lynched, but it wasn't white people lynched by all-powerful blacks and outside agitators, but rather blacks and Jews who were killed, mostly with impunity, and sometimes, as in the case of Leo Frank, with most of the power structure of the state participating in the crime. I hope we never see internment camps in America, but if we do, it's a sure bet they'll be used against a minority and not against the majority. (If we're supposed to take Andy McCarthy seriously, then we ought to be considering internment camps for Muslims today.) That's the way it's always been.

- Geoff G

August 24, 2010 at 11:43am

This cultural battle is just depressing as hell. It is not likely to have a major impact on the fall election but Jonathan is correct that it is a major issue. We should be attempting to further weave Muslims into the cultural tapestry of this country, and not causing alienation. I should like to say "salam" to my Muslim brothers and sisters and I also wish to say that I am deeply ashamed by the unchristian behavior of so many Americans. We shall overcome.

- liberal reformer

August 24, 2010 at 12:03pm

Richard Cohen's column this morning makes the point I'd want to about this: there can be no compromise on this issue. This is a matter of religious liberty, and we either have it or we don't. Most of those who are arguing against the mosque are doing so from a fundamentally dishonest standpoint. This is not about the frail delicate flowers who inhabit Manhattan, who so desperately need conservatives to alight upon their fair island to protect them from being unpleasantly reminded of that nightmarish Tuesday morning by the painful knowledge that, out of sight and around the corner from the construction area that marks the grave of thousands, there exists a building wherein people practice a religion that is twisted by others to justify murder. It's about us, that being God-fearing Christian Americans, versus THEM, that being everyone else. The rage directed at a random skullcap-wearing non-Muslim black guy who walked by demonstrates that this is not about rational thought. The articles over the past few days detailing the treatment Muslims are facing in Tennessee prove that this will not stop even if the offending Manhattan mosque ceases to be; people who spraypaint "Muslims go home" typically aren't satisfied with winning an argument over a zoning permit. This matters because what it's really about is freedom versus hatred. And if freedom loses, terrorists win. It's as simple as that.

- janus

August 24, 2010 at 12:09pm

When Obama got elected, for all his question marks, I at least got to feel that in the multi-cultural Washington DC area where I live I can pass by a black, a Jew, a Hindu, a muslim and he/she would not feel like a stranger. That sense is being torn asunder by some evil, opportunistic fools and I think only the President (and perhaps The Boss, Springsteen) has the visual and moral authority to confront this. I would also like to see religious leaders enter in this but, alas, they seem as timid as the nation's current business community

- NR027810

August 24, 2010 at 12:15pm

BTW, Abe Foxman does not speak for me or the ADL mission, he is about himself only and his personal issues. HIs stand on the Park51 was perhaps a low point in US Jewish history

- NR027810

August 24, 2010 at 12:16pm

Richard Cohen's column this morning makes the point I'd want to about this: there can be no compromise on this issue. I disagree, early on there could have been a genuine compromise. Conservatives could have raised millions of dollars and made Rauf an offer he couldn't refuse while pledging to turn the building into a rehab. center for returning injured Veterans. Rauf himself could then have taken his nice profits, and bought and built a center a few blocks north. And could Rauf really have said no to a rehab. center for injured vets and a large profit on the building? Of course not. But no, Republicans expect Rauf to eat the losses and not to then have any money whatsoever to build a center, and they chose to demonize all Muslims in the process. I fucking hate Republicans (except for the few who stand up for this, and believe it or not Wehner is one of them)

- blackton

August 24, 2010 at 12:47pm

"This cultural battle is just depressing as hell. It is not likely to have a major impact on the fall election but Jonathan is correct that it is a major issue. We should be attempting to further weave Muslims into the cultural tapestry of this country, and not causing alienation. I should like to say 'salam' to my Muslim brothers and sisters and I also wish to say that I am deeply ashamed by the unchristian behavior of so many Americans. We shall overcome." Seconded. Every word. I remember in the days after 9/11, there was concern about vigilanteism against American Muslims. In my neighborhood at the time, there was an Afghan restaurant that I'd never even really noticed, and at a neighborhood association meeting that fall someone proposed that we contact the owners to show our support and find out if they needed anything or if anyone was giving them a hard time. Turns out so many people thought likewise that business was actually up at the restaurant, which many of us discovered serves almost unbelievably delicious food. In the years since, the owner hung first a blue star for his son serving with the Marines "over there" and later a gold star when his son fell to an enemy bomb. I've moved away, but this whole mosque thing makes me want to go back and personally apologize to the whole darn staff of that little restaurant. I am that personally, viscerally, ashamed of what is being said and done by my countrymen about and to my countrymen.

- rhubarbs

August 24, 2010 at 1:11pm

blackton: I suppose you are literally correct. Had there been some kind of exchange offered without ridiculous demonizing, there could have been a "compromise." I'd argue that such a situation could not arise, however, because the opposition to the mosque, for the most part, is not the opposition of reasonable people conducting negotiations. It is the opposition of utter, nightmarish hatred that cannot be satisified by relocating a few blocks north. Rhubs: I am right there with you, re: shame. I could not believe what I was reading about Tennessee yesterday in particular; it read like something out of history book about school integration. Our country is better than this.

- janus

August 24, 2010 at 2:53pm

Incidentally, if I'm not in error the GOP voted in the House a week or two ago NOT to extend some special medical care provision to 9/11 first-responders and actually defeated the bill with some odd procedural opening that Pelosi left unattended.

- ironyroad

August 24, 2010 at 3:34pm

Salam to you too, barb,

- liberal reformer

August 24, 2010 at 3:35pm

I am surprised this issue is still dominating the conversation two weeks later. But I want to point out a few things that bother me. I can understand the differences in belief here. I strongly see the argument to let it be built and that stands as a symbol of our freedom and the strength of those beliefs. However I am furious with the unprovoked attacks from the Arab Terrorists and beleive this Assymetric Warfare needs to be fought on every front. No dispute is too small to fight over, no notion can go unchallenged. We may not win, but we need to fight. My problem is the the fight from the Left Wing in the United States and how I believe their tactics are losing the middle class and that they eventually will weaken their position. My first complaint is that the Left Attacks anyone who disagrees with them with name calling and accusations with no basis in fact. Anyone opposed to a Mosque is a Bigot or a Racist. Really, all the folks I know in Detroit are racist? Opposition to a Mosque is not an automatic entry into the KKK. If so, then half of NYC's Fire Department is racist. The second complaint is that the left tells America there is nothing they can do. The Mosque is a religous building and we have freedom of religion, ergo they can build what they want. I thought the left wanted an activist government capable of solving problems and making decisions. If there is nothing the government can do, shouldn't we reduce the number of government employees regulating things? My thrid complaint is that they tell me how great and peace loving the Muslims are any way, so they should have their own Mosque. The 9/11 Survivors and the NYFD are great people too, so why shouldn't their voice be heard? Muslims may be great people, but that doesn't have anything to do with this. Let's let Imam Rauf explain his intentions and put him on the record on what he expects to do. And then we can see if he lives up to these words. Decisions like this require that we explore our disagreements and work through those differences. If you look at some other Democratic positions they use these similar tactics. If you want control of Immigrating they call you a racist who doesn't understand these illegal alliens have rights that we can no do anything about, and they are hard working people. I think the Democrats would be better served to stop the name calling, try to be more active with the government in their responses and stop rationalizing.

- CRS9TNR

August 24, 2010 at 8:25pm

Hey CRS9TNR, In 2002 and 2003 I thought going to war with Iraq was a bad idea. I thought Bush should focus on al Qaeda and not go off on Saddam because Iraq "was where the targets are" or whatever Rumsfeld said. It was a serious policy disagreement. You know what The Right told me? That I was an anti-American terrorist lover who could not wait to help impose Sharia law in the U.S. Last year I thought it would be a good idea to get the nation's ridiculous health care system under some sort of control. I thought it would be a good idea to help those who can't afford health care get it, and I was outraged that insurance companies could deny insurance to people with pre-existing conditions. Folks on my side of the aisle immediately caved in by not even considering a single-payer system, then they "compromised" more by turning down a public option. It was a serious policy discussion. You know what The Right called me? A socialist, a Marxist and a communist. So when you whine and moan about how mean, unreasonable and cheap The Left is, it makes me laugh, cry, vomit, then throw things across the room. Both sides have their liars and on-the-make politicos and sleazeballs and opportunistic knobs who shout 'fire' in a crowded theater. But right now -- and since 1998 when Clinton was impeached -- there's been one side that is far, far ahead of the other when it comes to lying, distorting and dirty, underhanded tactics. And it's not The Left. When it comes to the behavior you're describing, The Right is a murderer and The Left is a jaywalker. Now, talking heads and media types seem to think that since they're both criminals they're equal. Here, at least, you seem to think that jaywalkers should executed. What do you want to do with the murderers?

- W_Bombay

August 24, 2010 at 9:13pm

If anyone really thinks this issue will not impact the November election, think again. "...A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 85% of U.S. voters say they are now following news stories about the mosque planned near Ground Zero. That’s a 34-point jump from a month ago when only 51% said they were following the story. The new finding includes 58% who are following the story very closely, up from 22% in mid-July. Now 62% oppose the building of a mosque near where the World Trade Center stood in Lower Manhattan, compared to 54% in the previous survey. Twenty-five percent (25%) favor allowing the mosque to go ahead, and 13% more are not sure. Sixty-eight percent (68%) of the Political Class, however, favor building the mosque near Ground Zero. Seventy-seven percent (77%) of Mainstream voters are opposed. Fifty-two percent (52%) of the Political Class, on the other hand, are confident that the mosque will honor those killed by the terrorists. Eighty-two percent (82%) of Mainstream voters don’t share that confidence. ... Fifty-eight percent (58%) of Mainstream voters say the mosque issue is important to how they will vote, with 34% who say it is Very Important. Political Class voters say overwhelmingly that the issue is not important to their vote. ..." http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/august_2010/many_more_now_following_mosque_controversy_and_don_t_like_it [Rauf+Khan put their personal ambition above all other considerations - a very NYC story. Whatever vision this team had of healing and interfaith dialog has already failed. ]

- K2K

August 24, 2010 at 11:18pm

K2K: Those numbers are depressing, although one wonders why Republicans consistently cite Rasmussen for numbers. Never mind. If you look at all of the comments above, with the exception of yours and that of CRS9TNR, you will find that not one of them makes the argument that a pro-Park51 position is particularly popular. I do not speak for the others, but I imagine they feel the same way when I say that it is our job as Americans to stick up for the unpopular when they are wrongly accused of threatening the majority. You will find that denying the Constitutional rights of other people, especially in wartime, is quite popular. Here's a link, wrongheaded IMO because it tackles the AZ case in which the issues are more complex, that is illustrative because it shows that the great majority of Americans supported the idea of interning Japanese, even if they were citizens. http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/polls-arizona-immigration-law-remind From this link:

There was virtual consensus that the government had done the right thing in moving Japanese aliens away from the coast; 59 percent of the interviewees also favored moving American citizens of Japanese ancestry. The answers reflected clear educational and geographic differences. Relatively uneducated respondents were more likely to consider the Japanese the most dangerous alien group, and they were also disposed to advocate harsher treatment of the Japanese who were moved away from the coast. The east considered the Germans most dangerous, the west the Japanese. People in the south, in particular, were prone to treat Japanese harshly. The Pacific Coast public led all other regions in believing the evacuees should be paid less than prevailing wages.

The point is, while it may have been a popular thing to do, aside from Michelle Malkin and Daniel Pipes, how many people will stand up and say they are proud that we imprisoned Japanese-Americans? And so it goes with your polls. As I said, I accept that my point of view is shared by about 30% of Americans right now. But I am confident that I will be proud of my point of view 20 years hence. And I am confident that, if you have any sense of pride in our country, you will not.

- rlgordonma

August 25, 2010 at 4:37am

I'll be honest here. Since 9/11, my attitude towards Islam and Muslims - even American Muslims - has been one of suspicion, discomfort, and even a sort of half-regretted and unexpressed loathing. I knew it was wrong, but there it was anyway. This Park51 Islamic Center debacle has opened my eyes and changed my mind. It is clear to me now how poisonous these feelings can be, once provoked by cynical politicians and other hatemongers. In place of my previous feelings, I have a newfound empathy for my Muslim neighbors. This shameful episode has drawn a line in the sand - a clear choice. What kind of America do we want to make in the 21st century? Will the liberties we have expanded since the founding of this nation be preserved for future generations? Will we continue to find strength in diversity and in a national character that has been formed through immigration and assimilation? I know what kind of America I want to be part of, and want to pass on to future generations. It is a place where my Muslim neighbors are as welcome and as respected as my Jewish and Christian neighbors. I am still bruised by the memory of 9/11, but there is too much at stake here. We need to be bigger than our grievous memories, our prejudices, and our fears, or we risk losing everything. Neil

- purcellneil

August 26, 2010 at 10:28am