The New Republic

Klein certainly goes overboard, but it's certainly true that (as we see elsewhere in these pages) Lieberman was for these "shaky proposals" before he was against them (overlooked by Lane), and his explanation for the about-face doesn't make any sense, raising doubts about his good faith in this matter.

- frippo

December 15, 2009 at 12:00am

How about some evidence, or an actual argument, Mr. Peretz? You fail to address Mr. Klein's point, that Lieberman opposes the legislation because of personal spite, and this opposition will in effect kill thousands of Americans. You claim the current bill contains "shaky provisions"--which exactly? The Medicare buy-in that Lieberman himself supported only three months ago!? Lieberman has been negotiating in bad faith from the beginning; he's only interested in setting himself up nicely with his insurance industry backers for a lucrative lobbying/speechifying career post-Senate and angering progressives. Dead Americans be damned. What's your counter-argument? You embarrass yourself by not even considering the argument against your old pal, who is the ultimate shanda.

- nfekx

December 15, 2009 at 4:03am

From my perspective, a marty peretz testimonial for Joe Lieberman is hardly a game changer. Tnr on the Plan, to its credit, has done a fine job of examining Lieberman's baffling flip flops and political grudge-based pivots on this issue. The fact that marty peretz likes Joe Lieberman does nothing to refute those developments. And Klein does not accuse Lieberman of "murder." Get a hold of your girdle peretz. Noting that Lieberman inexplicable flip-flops on health care imperils the health care of thousand of Americans, is a valid point and irrespective of the fact that Lieberman is in your good graces - why am I not surprised - your imprimatur of smarmy Joe is not exactly a solid character reference. Ezra Klein, even at his tender age, is real journalist, something that your money - or your obsessions - has never been able to purchase for you.

- MrCookie1

December 15, 2009 at 9:48am

Klein on Liberman: "At this point, Lieberman seems primarily motivated by torturing liberals. That is to say, he seems willing to cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in order to settle an old electoral score." Cookie: "And Klein does not accuse Lieberman of "murder."" Do you have trouble reading, Cookie? Cookie: "From my perspective, a marty peretz testimonial for Joe Lieberman is hardly a game changer." Neither is your testimonial for Klein nor your predictable attacks on Marty.

- jacksondyer

December 15, 2009 at 10:33am

nfekx "How about some evidence, or an actual argument, Mr. Peretz? You fail to address Mr. Klein's point, that Lieberman opposes the legislation because of personal spite,..." I too am angry with Lieberman for opposing the government option in the health care bill, still I don't know that he is doing it either for "personal spite," or because "he enjoys torturting the Democrats." These are are all conjectures and they are without merit. Where is the proof? I have come up with my own conjectures which is equally based on guess work. The truth will come out in time, but in the meantime I hope a compromise can be reached and the bill passed with or without the public option. My own preference is that they leave the public option in but stipulate that it would take effect only after the recession is over since this is the reason Lieberman says he is voting against it.

- jacksondyer

December 15, 2009 at 10:45am

I am with frippo, does Marty even read TNR? I would have had zero problem with Lieberman being against the Medicare buy in if he had not offered it as a substitute for the Public option a few months ago. Policy differences I can understand and respect up to a point (but only a point, otherwise he should be a Republican) but Lieberman doesn't seem to be animated by policy differences. I have no idea what he will do so it does seem he is operating in bad faith. Still in all, if he does vote for cloture then I am confident whatever his motivations are will not matter in the long run. Next year the Dems can push through the Public option via reconciliation. If he votes for cloture then I say no retribution, just let it slide, the Dems in Ct. can take their revenge if they choose in 2012, but if Lieberman filibusters even after all his demands are met (no public option, no medicare buy in) then the Dems in the Senate have to strip him of everything, let him caucus with the Republicans (and he can see how much money they will raise for a pro-choice Sen. from CT. ie nothing)

- blackton

December 15, 2009 at 10:55am

Marty - myopia is not cured by wearing rose-colored glasses. Simply stated, Lieberman is an uber-weasel, whose word means nothing. The recent incident of his flopping 180 degrees on the Medicare buy-in concept gives away the game: he is not serious about policy; he is serious about sticking it to liberals and to posturing and looking important. I am struck by your propensity to find fault with anything Hillary Clinton does, for example, while excusing the muling, hypocritical pieties of Lieberman. The double standard of accountability calls into question your judgment. I guess it can be seen as sort of a virtue to defend your friends, but then why should we trust or place confidence in your judgment, which depends on the combination of perspicacity, fairness, and the ability to rise above bias. Here I believe you have failed on all counts.

- JackR

December 15, 2009 at 11:02am

jackson, My reading is fine. Klein asserting that Lieberman's shameless flip flopping and futzing around with health care could imperil the lives of thousands may be akin to a murder accusation to hysterical old women like marty but within the context of this debate, it is well within the discussion, particularly as Lieberman continues to stall and put up new obstacles. I think what marty does not understand is that he is not a credible critic or observer and the more than he pathetically tries to take on the Young Turks, the more obvious is the fact that he is an old man with a calcified perspective and a side seat in the ranks of journalism. You may not like that fact but it is true. Nobody listens to this guy except a few Spine readers and when he tries to take on real journalists, it only accentuates his irrelevance.

- MrCookie1

December 15, 2009 at 11:11am

If Marty Peretz knows and trusts Joe Lieberman as a public figure, then he should explain why. Lieberman's behavior on the health insurance legislation has been destructive, almost nihilistic. His misgivings about the cost and structure of proposed reforms are disingenuous, especially for someone who finds cost no object in our endless military expeditions to the Middle East and Central Asia.

- amidut

December 15, 2009 at 12:04pm

Cookie, I am as angry at Lieberman as one, here. Still I will not endorse Ezra Klein’s reckless charges. I also don’t see the Senator as a man of “principle,” as does Marty. As I said above I don’t know what motivates him and I don’t care. If he derails health care reform he should be, as Blakton said, be stripped “of everything, let him caucus with the Republicans.” I would go further and say that he should become a Republican. I doubt the Repubs who love him now (because of his opposition to the Demos) will love him as one of theirs. They will probably fid him too liberal on many issues. I am also miffed at other Demos on another issue which isn’t being covered here. I have been reading articles in the NY Times on the effect the end of unemployment benefits and affordable medical insurance will have on tens of thousands of people very soon. They have been talking about extending those benefits but so far they haven’t done so. They can’t blame this one on Lieberman.

- jacksondyer

December 15, 2009 at 12:11pm

My agreement level overall with Peretz is close to 0. But he is right on the twerphood of Ezra Klein. I saw him on one of the MSNBC circuses and he is an off putting combination of supercilious smugness, self-importance, and ignorance.M.P got this one right,

- kaboom

December 15, 2009 at 2:32pm

jackson, Let me look at it another way and it gets to the problem with this post: Just because Martin Peretz likes Joe Liebeman does not negate the fact that Lieberman has negotiated in bad faith throughout the health care discussions. And when you deal in bad faith negotiations, many people will question your scruples and integrity, irrespective of a Peretzian Good Guy imprimatur. On that point, I think we agree.

- MrCookie1

December 15, 2009 at 2:40pm

jack i"m just confirming I answered you on the other thread spinning out of Wood.

- basman

December 15, 2009 at 2:46pm

Perhaps if the Editor in Chief were more aware of the world outside his circle of always brilliant friends he might be more aware of Ezra Klein. I'm certain the TNR staff are more than aware of who Klein is and probably envy his success in getting a gig at the Washington Post. And this is particularly true following today's news that: A third of The New Republic's staff will be let go, FishbowlDC sources have confirmed. http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlDC/news_notes/tnr_to_lay_off_third_of_staff_146088.asp

- ndmackenzie

December 15, 2009 at 3:03pm

Itzik, I saw your post and will answer you shortly.

- jacksondyer

December 15, 2009 at 3:15pm

MrCookie1 jackson, "Let me look at it another way and it gets to the problem with this post: Just because Martin Peretz likes Joe Liebeman does not negate the fact that Lieberman has negotiated in bad faith throughout the health care discussions." I agree, Cookie.

- jacksondyer

December 15, 2009 at 3:16pm

Periodic layoffs in the publishing industry is not news: "2009 is the second consecutive year of deep cuts at Time Inc., the magazine unit of Time Warner ( TWX - news - people )." http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/25/layoff-tracker-unemployment-leadership-careers-report.html Both the New York Times and The Boston Globe as recenlty laid off people too. Those that are not laying off for now like the Atlantic are "restructuring" for now.

- jacksondyer

December 15, 2009 at 3:25pm

Perhaps this will put to rest what drives the senator's decision making: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/15/lieberman-liberal-enthusi_n_392887.html

- tnmats

December 15, 2009 at 3:27pm

Ezra Klein is an irresponsible turd no matter how much bigots like mackenzie think.

- jacksondyer

December 15, 2009 at 3:27pm

Thanks, tnmats. I think that settles it. Time for Joe to get railroaded out of the caucus.

- zardoz67

December 15, 2009 at 5:01pm

ND: How ugly of you to gloat over people losing their jobs. As Jackson says, lay-offs are happening everywhere. So perhaps it's you who needs to widen her circle. Anyway, it takes a particularly obsessed mind to link Ezra Klein and TNR cuts. But that's you all over.

- MOLLYSIMON

December 15, 2009 at 8:55pm

tnmats: I want to add my thanks for that link as well. Now that we've had what everyone suspected about Joe's psychology confirmed, if we want to get him out of the caucus, all we have to do is make liberals express enthusiasm about his staying in it. He'll register as a Republican the very next day.

- frippo

December 15, 2009 at 9:38pm

Several thoughts from the village Republican: 1) As I have posted elsewhere on the "understanding Lieberman" article, Ezra Klein's unfortunate choice of words is a "blood libel". Let him live with the language he chose. 2) If the the current economic climate, to which the media are all too obviously not immune, were to take a toll on TNRs staff, that would sadden all readers, to say nothing of the staff. If that comes, and if the lay-offs fall only or mainly on those who are out of tune with the proprietor that will sadden, and surprise, me. What I perceive is that a lot of the staff see the world differently than the proprietor on issues about which he feels strongly. So far, he issues paychecks to the disagree-ers and uses his column to provide his perspective on matters about which he feels strongly, and like everything published in the journal he owns, he allows readers to punch him in the face. So far, so good. Innocent till proved guilty. 3) Re Lieberman: Fox's 6:00 newscast covered Lieberman's September clip on extending Medicare and his present statement on the same subject today strait-forward and without comment. I see no signs of treachery. His September rumination, when Medicare-extension was not "on-the-table", reflected his views in 2000, when, as he now notes, the budget was in surplus and Medicare's "fiscal health" was, shall we say, more robust. The left wing of the Democratic party now has multiple issues with Lieberman that they can never forgive. Okay. The rest of us see a present-day Scoop Jackson, particularly as details and "costs" change minute by minute. 4) Medicare. My wife and I are retirees on Medicare, living, happily, I'm glad to say, in "Gods Waiting Room", in Florida. Our retirement plans have been hammered, like those of most senior citizens, but, luckily for us, we can still afford the "top option" available (long since subject to government regulation) from AARP. The cost to us of Medicare A, B and D (deduced from Social Security) and our Medicare supplement insurance is about $8,000 per year ( Medicare supplemental insurance costs are at least 2X higher in Florida than most other places). We receive statements from Medicare about what they paid for the services we received, and we receive statements from AARP/ United Health for the same services. Medicare pays a small fraction of the bills. The rest is paid by the supplemental insurance. The good news is, so far we are healthy as the proverbial horses; the bad news is two colonoscopies in "the ordinary course" have easily "eaten up" what we have paid to Uncle Sam and AARP/ United Health this year. My guess is that previous years weren't so different. There is no doctor here, and, to my surprise, I have found many with impressive training credentials, who doesn't push extra tests, procedures, follow-up visits, etc.; is that surprising (whether you believe the advice is motivated by fear of malpractice suits or good old fashioned greed)? I know not one single senior who does not pursue the doctor's advice (el cheapo included). My view, and I have been educated, almost by accident, by the debate over health insurance "reform", is that we have blown it. What I learned is that most of Europe has universal coverage, of some sort; most of Europe has lower costs than we have or will have; all of them have some method to contain costs; and all seem to have a certain decency and competence. Those concepts seem to have escaped both of our political parties. The Dems have suddenly discovered a taste for cost-containment; the Rs have suddenly discovered personal entitlement. Pro or con coverage; no serious interests in costs. As Harry Truman said in his private, personal correspondence, "ain't it sompin"!

- lsernoff

December 15, 2009 at 9:57pm

MollySimon writes: ND: How ugly of you to gloat over people losing their jobs. I certainly did not gloat over anyone losing their jobs. I pointed out the irony in Martin Peretz's hardly credible profession of ignorance about Ezra Klein given that the journalists who work at The New Republic are obviously well aware of who he is and many would probably give an eye tooth to have had the journalistic success Ezra Klein has had. As Jackson says, lay-offs are happening everywhere. So perhaps it's you who needs to widen her circle. Layoffs are indeed happening everywhere but anyone familiar with the comings and goings of The New Republic knows that the magazine has particular problems related to the crazy notions of its Editor in Chief. Anyone with eyes can see that interest in the magazine from people willing to comment has dwindled to a few sorry souls willing to bask in the unalloyed glory of the nether reaches of Martin Peretz's spine. There never was much of a future there.

- ndmackenzie

December 16, 2009 at 2:28am

"... people willing to comment has dwindled to a few sorry souls " What do you call this kind of irony?

- noga1

December 16, 2009 at 6:46am

To say that mackenzie is obsessed with Marty would be understatement. The creep is an antisemitic stalker. He is also a coward who won’t acknowledge his bigotry in public. He has been predicting the demise of TNR for years now. That someone who hates a website and magazine as much as he does and still subscribes to it is a sign of masochistic paranoia.

- jacksondyer

December 16, 2009 at 4:57pm

Most weekly magazine survive by offering bland reportage like Time and Newsweek or by appealing to fanatical politicos like The Nation and The “Weakly” Standard or the National Review and Harpers. This is just a sign of the times and it has nothing to do with who the editor in chief is. Most small weeklies also have wealthy donors who keep them afloat. TNR is one of the very few small magazines that can’t be easily categorized, hence it’s problem with a mass readership that expects to be told how to think.

- jacksondyer

December 16, 2009 at 5:02pm

ndmackenzie, por qué no te callas, carajo?!? Why don't you just shut th*f**k up?!?

- Tgossard

December 16, 2009 at 5:35pm

I am afraid that TNR is not doing anybody any good with this defense of the quite lamentable Mr. Lieberman. Personal loyalties are commendable I suppose (referring to the writers), but what the Senator is doing is an act of revilement to his former party and those who voted for him. I am unmoved by this essay.

- atlasqq

December 17, 2009 at 3:33pm

I am afraid that TNR is not doing anybody any good with this defense of the quite lamentable Mr. Lieberman. Personal loyalties are commendable I suppose (referring to the writers), but what the Senator is doing is an act of revilement to his former party and those who voted for him. I am unmoved by this essay.

- atlasqq

December 17, 2009 at 3:34pm

Sorry. While all this is well and good, and it is nice to not leave an old friend in the cold, there are transcendent issues here. Mr. Lieberman's opposition is simply a very bad idea. One must look past the cant and loyalties and good memories and wished-for state of things-past and accept the hard reality that he is a horrible lump in the quilt of America right now, with shabby thinking, and poisonous relations. All the exegesis must be put to the side in favor of this truth. The rest, with due respect, Mr. Peretz, is just eyewash (or worse).

- atlasqq

December 17, 2009 at 11:14pm

"Mr. Lieberman's opposition is simply a very bad idea." of course it is, but do you say of Dean's opposition?

- jacksondyer

December 18, 2009 at 12:22am