The New Republic

"Pat has a strong stomach. "

You give him too much credit here. One needs a "strong stomach"  in order to be able to see or do things that are unpleasant without feeling sick or upset. Pat is upset  not because of anything Demjanjuk did but  because of the deportation of an old and sickly man because of what Pat would consider Jewish implacability.

I wouldn't count too much on CNN's audience to demonstrate any sturdier sense of justice. I watched Rick Sanchez present the news, instructing the viewers to feel sorry at the sight of a wheelchair-bound old man and his sister or wife's weeping over his departure. No context was provided, except for a legal consultant or something explaining that the reason he is deported was due to his lying on his immigration application.

This, for example, was not mentioned:

"Demjanjuk, who turns 89 on Friday, is charged in an arrest warrant in Germany with 29,000 counts of acting as an accessory to murder while working as a guard at a Nazi death camp during World War II."

And even if it were mentioned, I doubt it would have made much of a difference. The viewers see an old and frail man, not a Nazi thug.

- noga1

April 17, 2009 at 11:09pm

Everyone North, South, East and West of Baltimore....my hometown....tell me I'm woefully prejudiced in The Spine. No, it's not so much about Israel, Zionism or Judaism. It's you. I never cut you any slack...or acknowledge when you are right.

That's not true.

And my reaction to your reaction to Buchanan is but another example. Like Reason magazine [a magazine of by and for libertarians] I am strongly opposed to censorship. By the government, by the media. But any newcast that puts Patrick Buchanan on the air is just scrambling for the right wingnut audience. I never watch CNN myself but on MSNBC he pops up on Morning Joe and lots of other spots.

Now, people call me anti-semitic all the time in here. I'm not, but I have no illusions about convincing those who embrace the "agree-with-me-about-everything-Israeli-or-you're-a scumbag-Nazi" mentality.

But Pat Buchanan is just Mel Gibson shackled to the leash that every talking head on cable news must wear. The one that lets you just skirt the line between controversial and out and out bigotry.

Does anyone have any doubt about what gets communicated around the Buchcanan dinner table?

george walton

- iambiguous

April 17, 2009 at 11:32pm

Thank God Pat Buchanan has been marginalized by the dominant forces on the Right.  The National Review, the Weekly Standard, the Christian Right, and most Republican representatives and senators are philo-Semitic and pro-Israel.  Meanwhile, on the Left anti-Semitism and hatred of Israel are becoming downright trendy.  Even Jews on the left are not immune to those tendencies.

- bulbman1066

April 17, 2009 at 11:49pm

You can tell an antisemite from someone who is not, by the amount of lies and disinformation he or she disseminates about Jews (yes, Israelis are Jews, so that covers Israelis, as well).

You do that; you can't help yourself. You are incontinent that way, as, again, most antisemites are incontinent in their hostility.

- noga1

April 18, 2009 at 12:01am

noga:

You do that; you can't help yourself. You are incontinent that way, as, again, most antisemites are incontinent in their hostility.

george:

Why don't you come up with an "Anti-Semitic Scale". You know, like they measure earthquakes, hurricanes and tornados.

[By the way, if a tornado ravages a trailer park and only a family of Jews are killed, is the tornado anti-Semitic? If not, is it possible that God Himself is anti-Semitic?]

Start with "Level One" [the least] and work your way up to "Level Ten" [the worst].

Then run it by Jackson and Marty to fine tune it and make it more....scientific.

Also, include a step by step deprogramming guide for those not quite as mindlessly demonic as I am. The ones who can still be saved, for example.

george

- iambiguous

April 18, 2009 at 2:13am

george, you are quite beyond cure. Deprogramming you is as impossible as cleansing a sheretz (creepy crawly creatures).  

- noga1

April 18, 2009 at 7:02am

With George we have the triumph of dullness over narcissistically driven banality.

- jacksondyer

April 18, 2009 at 7:34am

Marty, have you seen this photo?

www.telegraph.co.uk/.../Barack-Obama-shakes-hands-with-Hugo-Chavez.html

And speaking of antisemites,

What do you make of it? Hardly a perfunctory hand shake, dictated by protocol, is it? To me, it seems like they really like each other. What's next? Are we going to see him kiss Ajmadinejad on both cheeks, during Durban II?

"The handshake at the Americas Summit in Trinidad/Tobago between Obama and President for Life Hugo Chavez of Venezuela and Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega bespeaks of appeasement, anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism, given Chavez continuing drum roll of propaganda against the US and actions against the small Venezuelan Jewish community depriving them of liberty and worse.  Chavez called Obama an 'ignoramus' in late March:

"He goes and accuses me of exporting terrorism: the least I can say is that he's a poor ignoramus; he should read and study a little to understand reality," said Chavez, who heads a group of left-wing Latin American leaders opposed to the U.S. influence in the region.

--Los Angeles Times, March 23, 2009.

And note this comment from a pro-Chavez Venezuelan supporters just before  the recent Israeli Operatiion Cast Lead in Gaza:

One week before the invasion, a Chavista columnist named Emilio Silva posted a call to action on Aporrea, a pro-government Web site, describing Jews as "squalid" _ a term Chavez often uses to describe his opponents as weak _ and exhorting Venezuelans to confront them as anti-government conspirators.

"Publicly challenge every Jew that you find in the street, shopping center or park," he wrote, "shouting slogans in favor of Palestine and against that abortion: Israel."

www.newenglishreview.org/.../20557

- noga1

April 18, 2009 at 11:50am

"...the nation which first gave substance to the idea of peoplehood itself."

That's interesting. Is that Marty just waxing lyrical or is there more substance to it? I mean, is ancient Israel the first place on earth to install some spirit of citizenship? Sounds dubious to me.

- The Ignorant Populist

April 18, 2009 at 12:26pm

Of course I agree with Peretz here, the thing I've noticed about Buchanan actually is his strong and weird desire to submit to authority, he just LOVES authoritarianism, if I were to guess, that (as well as some weird sense of U.S. nationalism) accounts for his semi-sympathy with the Nazis.

I noticed this 'love of authority' trait a few years ago, he opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq, but still would get all fluttery when talking about Bush executing it. Lately, I've seen him get fluttery over Obama, who has as one might imagine myriad views and policies Buchanan opposes; little matter though, Buchanan just loves him someone in authority.

- mmathog

April 18, 2009 at 1:14pm

"To me, it seems like they really like each other."

Your telepathic powers must come in really handy noga.

""He goes and accuses me of exporting terrorism: the least I can say is that he's a poor ignoramus; he should read and study a little to understand reality," said Chavez,"

And a few days later, Chavez backed down.

I have no idea how Obama feels personally or politically about Chavez... and you know what? Either do you.

These things will become clearer as time goes on (maybe Obama himself isn't quite sure yet).

- mmathog

April 18, 2009 at 2:01pm

"Sounds dubious to me."

That's why he is  called Ignorant.

- jacksondyer

April 18, 2009 at 2:46pm

"These things will become clearer as time goes on (maybe Obama himself isn't quite sure yet)."

Obama is not sure YET  whether he likes an antisemitic thug?

- noga1

April 18, 2009 at 3:28pm

"...is ancient Israel the first place on earth to install some spirit of citizenship? "

The term was "peoplehood". Maybe Marty means that it is the first time in recorded history of a consistent and inexorable effort by a group of tribes consciously deciding to become a people. You know, like the 12 colonies becoming the United States or something like that, except it took place three millennia earlier.

- noga1

April 18, 2009 at 3:38pm

What Marty means, Noga, is that the ancient Hebrews pledging themselves to a law on Mt. Sinai was the model of later theorizing about peoplehood. Hobbes, Rousseau, Locke as well as the founding fathers had that image in mind when they spoke of social contracts.

- jacksondyer

April 18, 2009 at 9:58pm

noga:

george, you are quite beyond cure. Deprogramming you is as impossible as cleansing a sheretz (creepy crawly creatures).

george:

Here's how it works in The Spine:

I note that:

"Pat Buchanan is just Mel Gibson shackled to the leash that every talking head on cable news must wear. The one that lets you just skirt the line between controversial and out and out bigotry.

"Does anyone have any doubt about what gets communicated around the Buchcanan dinner table?"

Now, ordinarily, most Jewish folks...religious or secular...would appreciate such a comparison. But not you. No, I have committed the cardinal sin of refusing to accept every stricture and every transgression that Marty piles up regarding The Right Way To Think About Jews, Zionism and Israel.

Once that solemn undestanding is breached nothing I ever say...ever again...let's me in the club.

And the fact that I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in BEING in the club, is completely irrelevant. You still have to remind me of all I'm missing.

george

- iambiguous

April 19, 2009 at 4:21am

"jacksondyer  said:  What Marty means, Noga, ..."

What Marty is saying, I daresay, was more simply articulated by Benjamin Disraeli, as he responded to Irish Roman Catholic leader Daniel O' Connell, in the House of Commons when the latter made a slur against his Jewish ancestry:

"“Yes, I am a Jew, and when the ancestors of the Right Honorable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were priests in the temple of Solomon”

- noga1

April 19, 2009 at 11:00am

I am no defender of Pat Buchanan's views.  But I think Noga's comments about CNN's Rick Sanchez are inaccurate.  I saw the broadcast about Demjanjuk.  It DID explain that Demjanjuk had been charged in Germany with 29,000 counts of acting as an accessory to murder in a Nazi death camp.  Of course, it should be recalled that Demjanjuk had also been accused of being Ivan the Terrible, and those charges against him were dismissed by the Israeli Supreme Court.  So justice has to take its course.  To ask Americans to despise Demjanjuk prior to there having been any trial or conviction is asking them to repudiate one of the core values of America's criminal justice system -- a core value of Israel's criminal justice system as well.

- dhurtado

April 19, 2009 at 1:52pm