The New Republic

“I think that in the first five years, there should be no chopping off of hands. This period should be dedicated to teaching things." Liberal Islamic scholars exist only on the op-ed pages on New York Times and the Guardian.

- rmakover@swbell.net-OLD

January 31, 2012 at 8:04am

Beg to report sir. I am an idiot. [Thank you to the fixer of the italic bug.] After I feed the chickens (who think I am intelligent and informed), I will demonstrate that I am infinitely tedious, though perhaps in a different thread and topic. Oh, hello, Marty. Good post.

- skahn

January 31, 2012 at 10:52am

My oh my. Agricultural practices, hospital construction, social responsibilities and who knows what else may all be learned through a single discipline. If correspondence courses are available, students can study while they continue their unemployment.

- Doug12

January 31, 2012 at 1:51pm

Just as I was getting ready to go feed the chickens, I heard a great commotion in the chicken run (which is well guarded with fence, cable, and electric fencing against coyotes, raccoons, weasels, eagles, and owls (all of whom live on our five acres in the woods). Oh, yes...hawks. One of which had penetrated the chicken Maginot line and seized a chicken. There are many feathers scattered about, and the backside of one of the hens is down to bare skin, but there is no blood. And while she is very skittish, she is still pecking and scratching. I have known American women who converted to Islam. I thought What are you thinking? but I always spoke politely and respectfully to them. In most cases, the motivation seemed to be that they had fallen in love with a Muslim man and married him. Perhaps it would reveal [one of several varieties of] prejudice for me to redouble the intensity of the question. For a while I worked very closely with a Muslim man (born in Morocco and college educated in the UJnited States). In part because we were involved with a difficult work situation with our employer, and in part because I didn't want to offend, I did not discuss religion with him, though when I cracked a joke about Osama bin Laden (pre-capture/pre-assasination) and he cracked up, I thought He may be a Muslim, but he seems cool. On his last day (he left before I retired) he went out for a drink with fellow workers. I thought, I suspect he is about as much a Muslim as I am a Jew. Except less so. I don't try very hard to keep my relatives (the ones who describe themselves as reform Jews) happy. I suspect that Yassif is Muslim because he still has relatives back in Morocco, and why rock their boats?

- skahn

January 31, 2012 at 4:00pm

I second Makover's comment. The current Turkish prime minister, Erdogan, says that there is no such thing as "moderate" Islam. He probably knows more than the NYTimes or the Guardian. sKahn, like others, can usually find a mellow Muslim, especially one who has settled in the West, but please remember that most Egyptians (80% according to a recent Pew survey, if I recall correctly) want stricter enforcement of Sharia law. I've known a few friendly (and honorable, in my experience) Muslims at work and school in the US, too. Shariah, however, is a Jim Crow style system of terror imposed on women, gays, and religious minorities. Ask the Copts, the Assyrians, Middle Easten Jews, and others.

- amidut

January 31, 2012 at 5:14pm

skahn's comment is so full of prejudices it is hard to know where to begin. He reminds me of a very nice elderly Canadian woman who sat on a course with me a few years ago. She was white, Christian and privileged. When the conversation turned to first nations, she said that she met a few of their members and they were all polite, intelligent and spoke very good English. No doubt she thought she was being egalitarian, or something. The discussion leader wanted to heat up the room a bit, so he asked whether any of the participants present had any Indian ancestry in them. Immediately a murmur of denial rose from the other kindly white Christian ladies who were present. "Shariah, however, is a Jim Crow style system " Except that Jim Crow, like Apartheid, did not pretend it was concerned with protecting African Americans. It was about preserving the race. The white race. Islam, however, justifies its laws regarding minorities and women by claiming it honors and protects them. Sharia accepts, a-priori, the proposal that Muslim men are superior human beings by nature. It then proceeds to provide legal protection to non-Muslims for a small fee. The inferiority of minorities is written into the premise of the law and the actual laws then proceed to offer them protection against the just indignation of Muslim society. Segregation in the South was legislated and in due time could be repealed, dismantled. Islamic supremacy is not a law. It is a divine right. It cannot be repealed. It could be modified somewhat, especially if the ruler is an enlightened sort. That is why Tariq Ramadan, an enlightened sort, could not call for an absolute cancellation of stoning of women; all he could do was ask that a moratorium be imposed on this law. Thus Islam, in its treatment of minorities, is closer to Nazi racial theories than it is to Jim Crow. http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/01/26/3091376/op-ed-a-palestinian-mufti-and-the-us-election#When:20:52:01Z

- noga1

January 31, 2012 at 5:53pm

With Kahn every coment is about "me" "me" "me" He knows no other topic. he judges everything issue by "me" "me" "me." Great Kahn is the very definition of a "know nothing but me.'

- arnon

January 31, 2012 at 8:35pm

In reply to noga1: Noga, Thank you for your comment on my comment. I am glad that even though it challenged you to know where to begin, you rose to the task. I am not sure, however, you are really speaking to me, but perhaps to someone else who irritated you so much that whenever you hear any tolerant words about Muslims you figure you are talking with naïve fools. When I meet a person, I know very little about him or her. Their racial identity may be obvious if they are black or Chinese. Although some people “look” Jewish, it is difficult to tell who is a “real” Jew by looks. For that matter, quite a few people whose DNA indicates that they are black, do not “look” black. My first girl friend was rather light-skinned, though I doubt anyone who met her regarded her as a white person. When I meet a person I generally do not know their religious affiliation, unless something makes it a topic of conversation. A person does not “look” Jewish, or Christian, or Muslim, though sometimes apparel or race may be a [not necessarily accurate] clue. In any case, regardless of race, or religion, or most other classifications, the person may be trustworthy or dangerous, honest or dishonest, likable or unpleasant. This is only revealed by behavior over time. Generally speaking, I try to evaluate a person as an individual regardless of these classifications. Most people are reasonably safe, or I would probably be dead by now. I don't know what is the REAL Christianity. I know only the persons I have met who regard themselves as Christians. Some Christians persecuted my Jewish ancestors. Some did not. About twenty years ago, in a previous job, I had a fairly involved conversation with a woman from Egypt attending graduate school at the University of Washington. She explained to me that many people had erroneous and prejudicial ideas about Islam. She said that it was a religion of peace and tolerance. (Malcolm X said similar things in his book about his life.) I listened politely and did not argue with her, but I felt a great deal of skepticism. Probably she was a fine person (at least that was my superficial impression), but I did not think at the time (and do not think now) that one person, one behavior, one group represents Islam or Christianity, or any other such large group. I still remember years ago (when my wife and I owned a business) a woman walking into our shop in unusual dress and explaining that she and her husband were Sikhs. She told me a little about their religion (which I promptly forgot). She and her husband struck me as pleasant and fine people. When a Sikh killed Indira Gandhi a few years later, I drew no conclusions about the religion and its adherents. I've said, and you may not have read it, or you may have ignored it, that I know some Muslims (and other people) would kill or harm me because of my last name or my looks, or what I say (as I am sort of an assertive loud mouth). I've gotten weary of the word “atheist” but I guess I be one. Atheists such as Stalin and Mao were some of the worst mass murderers in history; on the other hand, in a recent comment I put aggressive atheist Christopher Hitchens up there with people such religious believers such as Roger Williams and Vaclav Havel with the people I most admire. And Christians killed plenty of atheists, for that matter. As I also like to say – species prejudice, I guess – we are the most vicious creatures on earth and how can we stand ourselves? Even though I react to your comment to me as not quite accurate in its depiction of my views, I regard you as probably a very pleasant and worthwhile person. Is that superficial inference on my part inaccurate?

- skahn

January 31, 2012 at 9:24pm

"Some Christians persecuted my Jewish ancestors. Some did not. About twenty years ago, in a previous job, I had a fairly involved conversation with a woman from Egypt attending graduate school at the University of Washington." It's all about Kahn.

- arnon

January 31, 2012 at 9:33pm

Hey Kahn, some Nazis killed your relatives some did not. (I am not comparing Christians to Nazis, just pointing out what a stupid man Kahn is, btw.)

- arnon

January 31, 2012 at 9:35pm

Arnon, Thank you for your comment. Perhaps you are referring to a psychiatric condition known as "narcissistic personality disorder." [It is possible you are well-acquainted with this condition. Perhaps you should examine your mirror very closely.] Wikipedia says: Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity. Narcissistic personality disorder is closely linked to egocentrism. It is quite possible this description does describe me. What do you suggest? On the other hand, another condition worth thinking about is obsessive-compulsive disorder, described in Wikipedia as follows: Obsessive–compulsive disorder (OCD) is an anxiety disorder characterized by intrusive thoughts that produce uneasiness, apprehension, fear, or worry, by repetitive behaviors aimed at reducing the associated anxiety, or by a combination of such obsessions and compulsions. They provide various examples, but do not include obsessive insulting and attacking other members of a web site such as TNR. As that particular variation is not discussed, no remedy is provided. However, I will be so bold as to offer a suggestion. Try avoiding reading my messages. Or, you can ask the editors of TNR to ban me from participating in the web site. However, be careful what you ask for. If they come for me first, who will they go after next?

- skahn

January 31, 2012 at 9:38pm

Hmmmm.... The New York Times Magazine runs a 6 page piece on Iran and Israel and TNR doesn't touch it, even on their Blogs? Speaker Gingrich gets Millions from Sheldon Adelson to keep his campaign running, while Mr. Adelson is telling people he agrees with Newt's belief that the Palestinians are an 'Invented People'. A few years back the NYT Piece would have been picked up on with a little compare/contrast journalism. The Blogs would have started up with their two cents worth. Now even Marty is posting weaker material. Something's Up Here. Has they lost their Mojo? Sure seems like it.

- CRS9TNR

January 31, 2012 at 9:39pm

I will provide a calm, neutral response, and I suggest Arnon not read it and not comment on it, though he can do as he pleases. When I was a student taking writing classes, my instructors suggested that I use specific examples from experience before venturing too far into generalizations and abstractions. And when I think of books I've read and admired -- Down and Out in London and Paris by George Orwell comes to mind -- they seem to follow that pattern. As I've said, there are many excellent posts and comments here at TNR. The nearby article about Yemen by Theo Padnos is one excellent example -- does it not talk about his personal experiences and the people he talked to and met? Does this not make it a more interesting, useful, and informative article? My experiences and travels are nowhere near as interesting and extensive as those of the writers such as Mr. Padnos, but I have had some interesting and varied experiences and they form the basis of my reactions to articles and comments. If everyone who read my comments uniformly said, "Shut up, you boring old narcissistic windbag," I might indeed slink off with my head down. On the other hand, sometimes someone says LOLZ or "I agree with skahn," so whom am I to believe and pay attention to?

- skahn

January 31, 2012 at 9:52pm

skahn "Arnon, Thank you for your comment." Stop thanking people who excoriate your comments. You can't write about any topic without talking about "me, me, me." Even now you begin your non response with "When I was a student taking writing classes,..." again, it's " me, me , me,".... "If everyone who read my comments uniformly said, "Shut up, you boring old narcissistic windbag," I might indeed slink off with my head down." Most people are too polite or they prefer to ignore your nonsense. Most of the time so do I, but sometimes a comment of yours is so ridiculous that it's hard not to respond.

- arnon

January 31, 2012 at 10:07pm

"that whenever you hear any tolerant words about Muslims you figure you are talking with naïve fools." You are no naive fool. You are just a literalist bigot. The fact that you can recount to us sanctimoniously and with a straight face that you told a Bin-Laden joke to a Muslim and he laughed. And we are supposed to be surprised that he laughed and respect you for reporting "something positive" about a Muslim. As if all Muslims are Bin-laden fans. You are neither calm nor neutral. If you were, you would realize how inciting and injurious your comments are and desist from trying to bait Jews with your peculiar view of their history. I do believe you are something of a Tartuffe.

- noga1

January 31, 2012 at 10:08pm

CRS9: "The New York Times Magazine runs a 6-page piece on Iran and Israel and TNR doesn't touch it, even on their Blogs?" I know. It's beyond baffling. Maybe Florida is more important. You know, oranges and all that. It was a very revealing article, and I was somewhat amused to note that views I have expressed here which have been greeted with attacks of such unbelievable ferocity as to make the 1893 eruption of Krakatoa, East of East St Louis, seem like a firecracker at Halloween are rather precisely echoed by the former long-serving director of the Mossad.

- ironyroad

January 31, 2012 at 10:36pm

Kahn: "When I was a student taking writing classes, my instructors suggested that I use specific examples from experience before venturing too far into generalizations and abstractions. And when I think of books I've read and admired -- Down and Out in London and Paris by George Orwell comes to mind -- they seem to follow that pattern." How does your meeting one or two Muslims in the US prove anything? As to your Orwell example, it's an interesting choice since if you really read "Down and Out...." you would know that the narrator makes some very forceful antisemitic comments in that exemplary book. I trust that you either have not read the book or else that you have forgotten what you read.

- arnon

January 31, 2012 at 10:47pm

CRS9: "The New York Times Magazine runs a 6-page piece on Iran and Israel and TNR doesn't touch it, even on their Blogs?" And why should they. Is the NY Times the voice of god?

- arnon

January 31, 2012 at 10:48pm

For what it's worth Kahn I don't think you are a bigot. One has to be of sound mind to be a able to express himself as a bigot and you strike me as being non compos mentis.

- arnon

January 31, 2012 at 10:57pm

Arnon, Could be. My wife volunteers with a group for people with dementia (Alzheimer's and other similar disorders). She says, "Prepares me for the time I have to deal with you." Some more "me, me" I guess. My mother died with Alzheimer's and my father's oldest sister died with it. So I guess my genetics are bad. I woke up this morning, and though, "Hey, I am still alive at 68. Hey, I am still not demented." OK, arnon, as usual, I will let you have the last word in this thread, unless noga wants to fight you for it, as noga seems to be infected with whatever is inspiring you to obsess about me. Here's your assignment to either or both of you: In 250 words or less, write a comment that proves a) that you are not unhealthily obsessed with me and b) that you have a sense of humor. OK, you go, boys and girls.

- skahn

January 31, 2012 at 11:37pm

skahn: How can a man blind from birth know about colour? How can a man so utterly devoid of irony as you know what a sense of humour is? To me it seems you really do not like yourself and seek to have your self-loathing validated by baiting strangers into saying unkind things to you.

- noga1

February 1, 2012 at 7:58am

"Is the NY Times the voice of god?" No, not exactly, but the newspaper of record (still). I think one problem is that now TNR has no regular blog on foreign policy, after Marty closed his down.

- ironyroad

February 1, 2012 at 10:36am

"I think one problem is that now TNR has no regular blog on foreign policy, after Marty closed his down." I agree but this is a different issue.

- arnon

February 1, 2012 at 11:02am

"...are rather precisely echoed by the former long-serving director of the Mossad." We Israelis have been cursed by this unfathomable tendency to doubt anybody and everybody, no matter how highly they rank in the security apparatus. And rightly so. We have the experience of having to fight the bloodiest war since 1948 because of the failure not of the intelligence services but the way information was interpreted into unbelievable complacency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agranat_Commission#Findings

- noga1

February 1, 2012 at 12:22pm

Noga, I didn't know about this history but a superficial perusal of the entry tells me that it was Military Intelligence (hey, Mark Twain!) that was at issue, rather than the work of the main Israeli intelligence agency. It wasn't that the Mossad messed up, it was that the oh-we-know-what-we're-doing-so-leave-us-alone military folks just looked at the obvious (including what they had from Mossad sources) and didn't see it. So I'd say my team remains on the field.

- ironyroad

February 2, 2012 at 2:17am

Didn't I say exactly what you are saying, ironyroad? Let me requote myself: " We have the experience of having to fight the bloodiest war since 1948 because of the failure not of the intelligence services but the way information was interpreted into unbelievable complacency." Again: "the failure not of the intelligence services but the way information was interpreted into unbelievable complacency." Again: "the way information was interpreted into unbelievable complacency." It's an annoying habit of yours to re- phrase what I was saying but as an argument against what I was saying. What exactly are you gaining from it?

- noga1

February 2, 2012 at 6:53am

Oh yes. Sorry, I misread. But as you so graciously bring up annoying habits, the irritating habit you have is to phrase a response agreeing with me (or mostly) in such a way as to make it read like a disagreement.

- ironyroad

February 2, 2012 at 2:49pm

I'm trying to learn from and emulate my betters...

- noga1

February 2, 2012 at 3:19pm

Marty, this guy makes Attila the Hun look like a progressive.

- rewiredhogdog

February 3, 2012 at 5:45pm

skahn: fwiw, I really enjoy reading your comments. Hope your hen's feathers grew back. Too bad TNR does not have a blog for those of us who regularly witness the encounters between the domesticated and predatory not-human species in these rural places. Since I stopped watching or reading news in January 2012, the highlight of my day are close encounters with non-humans. As for Egypt? I thought there would be food riots by now. I wonder where the foreign exchange for their wheat imports is coming from...

- K2K

February 3, 2012 at 6:29pm

http://mickhartley.typepad.com/blog/2012/02/america-israel.html "Well that didn't take long. The day after the football bloodbath in Port Said on Wednesday, Egyptian MP Mustafa Bakri knows who to blame: Our country is entering a state of anarchy. This anarchy is caused by America, Israel and the former regime. Look at the New Middle East scheme. Don't talk about all the minute details. What happened in Port Said is a continuation of what happened in Muhammad Mahmoud Street, in Al-Qasr Al-Ayni Street, across from the government, across from Maspero, and in the soccer match against Tunisia. They are all connected. It is an attempt to bring this country down."

- noga1

February 4, 2012 at 12:03pm

skahn, I second K2K's observations and wish your chickens well. I think that only those who have never witnessed a mother hen fluffing herself to full girth and standing her ground while the chicks scurry for cover can think poorly of chickens. Or consider them stupid. Or fault them for all kinds of imagined failings and for not being other than who they are. Hope those ruffled feathers heal quickly, and that the gratuitous attacks abate...

- willjames77

February 6, 2012 at 7:14pm