WORLD MARCH 24, 2011
-
Read Later
READ LATERAvailable only to subscribers. SUBSCRIBE TODAY
-
Listen
ARTICLE AUDIO
- Font Size

It may have come as a surprise to many people that Germany—the lynchpin of the NATO alliance on the European continent and a close ally of the United States since 1949—voted to abstain from the U.N. resolution authorizing force against Muammar Qaddafi. The country was a staunch advocate of humanitarian intervention in the Balkans, and it is most definitely not led by a government of leftists who are given to denunciations of American imperialism. Indeed, Chancellor Merkel’s affinity for American values is so pronounced that President Obama recently awarded her our highest civilian honor, the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Why, then, has Germany been so adamant in its opposition to the Libya intervention?
The answer begins with the fact that two competing narratives of history are currently jostling for supremacy in German politics—each of which presents a dramatically different approach to the memories of World War II and the Cold War. One important thing to note about these narratives is that they are not simple matters of left and right: They cross both ideological and party lines.
The first narrative downplays the connection between force and freedom. It deemphasizes the fact that only Allied arms defeated the Nazi regime, while tending to accentuate the role of Willy Brandt’s Ostpolitik, the West German and West European peace movements, and Mikhael Gorbachev’s perestroika and glasnost as the causes of the end of the Cold War. In some accounts, the hard line taken by the Western alliance before and during the 1980s and the role of Eastern European dissidents who delegitimized Communist ideology get less attention or are mentioned only as factors that endangered peace.
In the 1980s, the University of Bonn political scientist Hans-Peter Schwarz captured the essence of this political culture when he spoke of the shift from the “obsession with power” in Nazi Germany to a “forgetting of power” in the West German peace movements and in the political language of détente articulated by Brandt. Since the bitter disputes over nuclear weapons in the 1980s, elements of the mood that Schwarz described on the West German left have become part of a much broader consensus in the German foreign policy establishment. For its adherents, this mood is a civilized and decent response to the aggression and crimes of the Nazi regime. It means the replacement of primitive nationalisms of the past with multilateral principles of an integrated Europe. And it assumes that webs of interdependence created by the global economy will make problems solvable through negotiations and dialogue.
These views have dominated German politics since at least summer 2002, when Gerhard Schröder emphatically opposed the coming Iraq war—but the ascension of this worldview went beyond just Iraq. As Andrei Markovits has convincingly demonstrated in his book Uncouth Nation, Schröder’s opposition to Bush’s policies stoked anti-American sentiments in German society. While Germany did send 7,000 soldiers to Afghanistan, their rules of engagement are far more restricted than are those of American and other coalition forces, and their presence remains unpopular in Germany. The massive support for Obama in the summer of 2008—when 200,000 people turned out to cheer him in Berlin—rested partly on the belief that, as the “anti-Bush,” he would turn away from American military intervention, especially in the Middle East. Moreover, in the long and drawn-out negotiations with Iran about its nuclear program, there has been a powerful establishment current opposing tougher economic sanctions and certainly any hint of a military option. Indeed, in a 2009 book about Germany and Iran, the German political scientist Matthias Küntzel referred to the emergence of a “new constellation. On the one side, the Western powers, the USA, France and Great Britain and on the other side, Russia, China and the Federal Republic of Germany.”
The current government of Chancellor Angela Merkel and Vice-Chancellor and Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle is steeped in this intellectual consensus. The government is a center-right coalition of the conservative Christian Democratic Union and Christian Social Union, along with the market-oriented liberal Free Democratic Party. On March 18, Westerwelle (who has spent his entire career in the Free Democratic Party, a small but influential party whose base lies in the country’s professional, economic, and academic elite) laid out the government’s position on Libya before the German parliament in Berlin. On the one hand, he said, “We condemn the crimes of the dictator Qaddafi. One can no longer work with this man. He must go.” But, on the other hand, he argued that there are “no such things as surgical strikes. Every military engagement will also produce civilian casualties. We know that from painful experience. We have often talked about this regarding operations in Afghanistan and Iraq.” Hence, German soldiers would not be participating. He did not explain why or how Qaddafi could be compelled to “go” in the absence of military intervention.
The government’s position has awakened many critics, who can be said to represent the opposing narrative in German politics. Their responses hearken back to the interventionism of the 1990s, when—as described by Paul Berman in this magazine and in his book Power and the Idealists—then-German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer and other left-wing members of the 1968 generation, such as Daniel Cohn-Bendit and Peter Schneider, made common cause with conservative advocates of armed intervention in the Balkans. At the time, Fischer argued that only armed intervention could prevent ethnic cleansing. “Never again Auschwitz” had to trump “never again war” if Germany was to play a role in defending human rights. This time around, critics of Germany’s non-interventionist stance have included one of the CDU’s leading foreign policy experts, Ruprecht Polenz; a former Social Democratic cabinet minister for economic development, Heidemarie Wieczorek-Zeul; the leader of the Green Party, Cem Ozdemir; and Fischer himself.
The government’s approach has also met with sharp criticism in the German press. In Die Welt, Richard Herzinger—for years the most articulate critic of the foreign policy consensus represented by Westerwelle—criticized “the shameful way that Germany emerged as the party seeking to delay action” on the part of the Americans, British, and French. Daniel Brossler declared that the decision had eliminated Germany as a serious candidate for permanent Security Council membership, in a piece for the liberal Süddeutsche Zeitung titled “On the side of the dictators.” In the mass circulation tabloid Bild Zeitung, Michael Backhaus referred to the West’s military action as a “just military intervention against Colonel Qaddafi, who has terrorized his own people and the whole world for far too long.” Backhaus offered a remarkable historical comparison: “Just as the resistance against Hitler and his band of murderers hoped for the Allied landing in Normandy, so the rebels in Benghazi hope for fighter jets from the democracies.”
German public opinion, meanwhile, seems to have settled into an awkward place somewhere between these two competing narratives. According to a poll conducted by the mass circulation Bild Zeitung, while 62 percent of Germans supported the use of military force against Qaddafi, only 29 percent supported participation by German troops. Germans, in other words, seem to accept that force can be necessary to avert catastrophe; but they don’t want to use it themselves.
For many decades, the world feared a Germany that forgot its Nazi past or had visions of reviving old dreams of empire. But as Berlin’s current stance makes clear, the true problem—at least for those of us who believe that overseas intervention is sometimes necessary—is not that Germans fail to remember the past; it’s that a particular interpretation of the past (and present) has led one side in this debate to entertain illusions about the diminished role of force in international affairs and thus to rigidly oppose its use for humanitarian ends.
Jeffrey Herf, a professor of modern European history at the University of Maryland in College Park, has published extensively on memory and politics in postwar Germany. He is the author most recently of Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World.
38 comments
"entertain illusions" or is that properly "fail to entertain illusions." Apparently what we need are many competing interpretations of the past as, surely, we should not under any circumstances prefer that of Herf. Let a thousand flowers bloom?
- roidubouloi
March 24, 2011 at 1:13pm
Yes, since 1945 Germans have become skeptical about the use of force in international relations despite the fact that force was needed to liberate them from the Nazi regime. The "power politics" of previous decades was replaced by a reluctance to use military power even in case humanitarian interventions. German foreign policy can best be understood in terms of "civilian power", a concept coind by Hanns Maull, professor of international relations at the University of Trier. (Hillary Clinton recently used it, but in a different sense.) Robert Kagan got it right, at least with respect to the Germans, when he complained that "Americans are from Mars and Europeans are from Venus". The foreign minister Guido Westerwelle seemed to have other motives, however, when Germany abstained in the security council. Elections are near and his party seems doomed. Apart from that, many Germans think he could have voted with the West without Germany sending soldiers to Libya. This isn't part of the plan, anyway. Considering Qaddafi's praise for Westerwelle and the Germans before the vote on the UN-resolution, the German "No" is certainly something to frown upon and to regret.
- wtoenn
March 24, 2011 at 1:39pm
Or perhaps we should just be happy that the Germans did not once again become energetically adventurous once re-unified? Reading the recently released Thatcher-Gorbachev meetings, it's pretty clear that the Iron lady is less concerned with a unified Germany making the Russians feel threatened (since they were contemplating tearing the wall down themselves) and more that she personally feared a unified Germany. I find the argument that the Germans have "forgotten" that they were liberated by Allied troops (by force) as somewhat unpersuasive. My experience is less that they have forgotten this, and more that they view redeveloping military capabilities is something they are better off not taking the risk with (similar in fact, to Japan). Since they were strategically critical to the "west" in Europe throughout the cold war, they could adopt this viewpoint safe in the knowledge that the Americans and British would defend them, albeit possibly to the last German. In other words, Germany has been an extremely successful social engineering experiment while operating under the US security umbrella. If one wants to find evidence of the article's thesis, one could do worse than going west a little to France, where one may be forgiven for getting the impression that Vichy France was liberated by the French resistance.
- Nari224
March 24, 2011 at 2:29pm
The allies liberated who? From whom? In the same vain, the interventionists wish to liberate Libyans from . . . . Libyans. We've gone from liberating Europe from Germans (successfully), then liberating Koreans from Koreans (not so successfully), to liberating Vietnamese from Vietnamese (unsuccessfully), to liberating Kuwaitis from Iraqis (successfully), to liberating Iraqis from Iraqis (not so successfully), to liberating Libyans from Liyans (?). The allies didn't liberate Germans from Germans. That's nonsense. The allies defeated the bastards.
- rayward
March 24, 2011 at 4:43pm
Right on.
- Sophia
March 24, 2011 at 8:20pm
I think that the term "liberation" is important for Germans because it suggests something more than just defeat. For the purposes of national psychological coherence after the war, there had to be a belief in a "better" Germany that had been neutralized and buried by the Third Reich. That was what the Allies liberated. Most Germans I know (and I lived there for well over a decade) had no illusions that the Nazis could have been defeated by e.g. diplomatic negotiations. The honor bestowed in the postwar years on the officers who tried to assassinate Hitler in the July 1944 plot and stop the war is part of this. It's a bit of a fiction, but also somewhat of a truth.
- ironyroad
March 25, 2011 at 2:16am
For those who may miss the point, it's blurring the lines on which the interventionists depend. My (only) uncle did not die to liberate Germans, and neither did the hundreds of thousands of dead uncles, aunts, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, husbands, and wives. I don't care anything about the psychobabble concerning German "character" that resulted in the Third Reich. Indeed, it's that kind of thinking that has lead the US into the disasters that have become a fixture in US foreign policy since WWII. War is a very blunt instrument whose use is justified only in the case of bright lines.
- rayward
March 25, 2011 at 8:25am
Our soldiers did not die in WWII to liberate France either, although that was a necessary strategic objective. Nor did we defeat Germany. For the most part, the Russians did that. Ours was, after all, the Second Front, and that was opened late in the war when the ultimate defeat of Germany by Russia was already becoming clear. Once Russia had gathered itself, under the lash of Stalin, it was too large for Germany to swallow We are terribly burdened by the myth that we went to war in Europe and the Pacific for freedom. Great for propaganda, great for morale, nothing to do with reality. We went to war for the right reason, the most important reason: Germany and Japan presented a hideous threat to the safety, security, and well-being of the United States.
- roidubouloi
March 25, 2011 at 11:29am
The explanation for non-German participation in the Libyan operation is pretty simple. Germans don't want to die for the sake of dark skinned Libyans.
- Newly84
March 25, 2011 at 11:35am
I would add that the part of the awkward legacy of WWII is that it was relatively painless for us. Our losses were a fraction of those suffered by other countries and after Pearl Harbor there were no attacks (other than minor affairs in the Aleutians I believe) on the US. Because most of the fighting was done by others, we have the dual myths that "we" won the war and are besotted because we did it with relatively little pain. Put that together with our falling for our own propaganda myth -- that we were fighting for "freedom" rather than to protect our own lives and well-being -- and it is easy to see why we have been inspired to so many military misadventures since WWII, none of which seem to have the outcome we expect based on those myths. Grenada was however a big success, as was Panama. It seems that as long as we heavy the enemy outnumbered by about 1,000 to one we do just fine.
- roidubouloi
March 25, 2011 at 11:35am
Why should Germans want to die for the sake of dark skinned Libyans, or light skinned Scandanavians for that matter? Why should they want to die other than out of necessity, to protect their own nation, their communities, their families? We are not made better off by people too willing to die for ideological reasons.
- roidubouloi
March 25, 2011 at 11:38am
“Why should Germans want to die for the sake of dark skinned Libyans, or light skinned Scandanavians for that matter?” Germans were not asked to die for Scandinavians, but for Libyans. Had they the debate would have been much different. And choosing not to aid other peoples is also an ideological decision. It’s the ideology of conservative right wingers like the well known Patrick Buchanan.
- Newly84
March 25, 2011 at 11:55am
interesting insights from Herf. maybe one could add that Germany still thinks somehow they can get the Russians to forgive them for sending Lenin back in 1917, and starving three million Russian POWs to death during WW2. just seems that a lot of what Merkel's Germany does is about Germany's relationship with Russia, eg, she really wanted to force GM to sell Opel to the Russians. and, easier for Germany to follow Turkey on NATO engagement.
- K2K
March 25, 2011 at 12:37pm
The German-Russian relationship is a very long one, K2K, born of geography. Governments and ideologies come and go. The geography remains unchanged on a human time scale. It is undesirable that people be anything other than reluctant to die for other nations and entirely understandable that the less remote the relationship the more sympathy that the unwilling feel. It is the most human of sentiments to be moved most by those closest to us, with the circle spreading outward to community, region, nation, culture, and faith. As for the great movement of human sympathy that accounts for our assistance to Libya, I wonder how many of those so moved are also moved by the prospect that uninsured Americans may die for lack of health care or by the prospect that people may be left permanently without employment and living on the margins of society. My guess is that there is considerable overlap between interventionists, whether they consider themselves to be of the right or of left, and those who are quite indifferent to the fate of their fellow citizens. How might one explain that?
- roidubouloi
March 25, 2011 at 1:04pm
It may be "psychobabble," rayward, but anyone who thinks that war has nothing to do with culture, mentality, expectation, and identity is drawing their perspective into a very narrow frame where much gets left out. Agreed, the story of "liberation" is a German one, not an American one -- but it is therefore relevant to Herf's article. And the U.S.'s post-war relationship with Germany was about finding a place beyond victory/defeat -- again, their deal rather than ours, but the Federal Republic was in many ways our most important ally. That aside, however, roid's implication/idea that interventionists overlap massively with, say, anti-union, anti-government conservatives is a little too pat. There was a time, a generation ago, during which progressive political camp in the United States was more inclined to take an activist stance on world affairs, and indeed the Cold War itself can, in some ways, be regarded as a conflict between social democrats and communists as much as one between conservatives and communists. Perhaps that isn't the case today, but there are also major splits -- we've seen them -- between those whose intervention is validated by international law and those who only accept unilateral American action with lots of high-fiving and shouts of USA! USA!
- ironyroad
March 25, 2011 at 1:30pm
Too pat, perhaps. But I didn't say "massively." That would over-state the case. I do think that these expressions of deep feeling for the Libyans ought not be taken at face value when many of the same people are indeed indifferent to the plight of people. It would not in my opinion by in the longer term interest of human rights if they become merely a cover (as I believe they are in the case of neo-cons) for popping off those governments that are perceived as hostile to us. Sort of like using journalist cover for CIA agents. Works for a while, but then all it does is jeopardize journalists without providing cover for CIA agents.
- roidubouloi
March 25, 2011 at 2:50pm
“It would not in my opinion by in the longer term interest of human rights if they become merely a cover (as I believe they are in the case of neo-cons) for popping off those governments that are perceived as hostile to us. Sort of like using journalist cover for CIA agents. Works for a while, but then all it does is jeopardize journalists without providing cover for CIA agents.” How is this relevant to Libya? It’s also not true that the current Iraqi government Or the Afghan one are pro American. “Neocons” are a convenient whipping-boy/
- TomLessing
March 25, 2011 at 4:46pm
How is this relevant to Libya? Say what? You are unable to observe the possibility that the zeal for intervention in Libya may have more to do with who Qaddafi is and his history with the United States than it does concern for the well-being of Libyans? The thought does not occur that the intervenors may use the sanction of the UN to "protect civilians" may yet become a cover for regime change? Which universe are we in today? Neocons deserve a good whipping. They are a menace. It that is convenient, so be it. If not, they deserve it anyway.
- roidubouloi
March 25, 2011 at 8:48pm
Why don't give some neocon a beating, roidubouloi? Or are you all talk?
- TomLessing
March 25, 2011 at 8:54pm
Are you volunteering? You seem awfully tough. Certainly not all talk. Oh no.
- roidubouloi
March 25, 2011 at 10:46pm
And here I thought that when you called neo-cons "whipping boys" you were speaking metaphorically. But if you really think they should be physically whipped, sounds good.
- roidubouloi
March 25, 2011 at 10:49pm
TomLessing, let this be a lesson to you. Never engage the bully known as roidubouloi. He is an insane bully.
- nr106646
March 25, 2011 at 11:44pm
nr106646 : Your record of ad-homenim attack as the topic of your first post for a thread remains appears to still be strong. Bravo!
- Nari224
March 26, 2011 at 1:41pm
Newly84: "Germans were not asked to die for Scandinavians, but for Libyans. Had they the debate would have been much different." I am right in assuming that this is a claim to, if not racism, then racial bias on the part of the Germans? If so, do you have some post-lebensraum evidence that the Germans are more racist than the English or French?
- Nari224
March 26, 2011 at 1:47pm
"I am right in assuming that this is a claim to, if not racism, then racial bias on the part of the Germans? If so, do you have some post-lebensraum evidence that the Germans are more racist than the English or French?" "post-lebensraum," that's quite a euphemism for Holocaust.
- Newly84
March 27, 2011 at 12:15am
Newly: It was intended as a post Third-Reich reference, a period where German racism was clearly evident, so yes I mean post Holocaust. So, can I assume your evidence of German racism is events from 2-3 generations ago (and primarily against white Europeans at that, Scandanavians included)? Do you also believe that Germany still looks like it did in 1945, possibly also in B&W? If there is a country in the world that has confronted its sins and both atoned and moved on, it's Germany (imperfect as it may be). Got anything else to back up your statement on the motivations of current day Germany?
- Nari224
March 27, 2011 at 9:05am
"Newly: It was intended as a post Third-Reich reference, a period where German racism was clearly evident, so yes I mean post Holocaust. Nari224, racism didnt start with the Nazis and it didn't end after the fall of the third Reich. As for evidence I am not here to convince you or anyone else about racism in Germany today.
- Newly84
March 27, 2011 at 11:46am
Newly: While it would be fairly reasonable to assumes that someone who makes a statement such as: "Germans were not asked to die for Scandinavians, but for Libyans. Had they the debate would have been much different." a just bigot, it is often illinating to instead enquire as to the evidence for this statement. After all, one may learn something new. However I will take this response: "As for evidence I am not here to convince you or anyone else about racism in Germany today." as a concession that you have no evidence at all to support the original statement, and it is just a personal opinion, albeit a fairly repellant one.
- Nari224
March 27, 2011 at 12:43pm
Nari224, I don't care how you take it. Just because you are an international lawyer and are looking for a lawyerly kind of truth doesn't mean that you are you are right. There are more things in Germany than your lawyerly mind can ever understand.
- Newly84
March 27, 2011 at 2:04pm
To non lawyers or law students: "The study – “Intolerance, Prejudice, Discrimination: A European Report” –questioned roughly 1,000 people in each of the selected EU countries. The investigation was limited to Great Britain, Holland, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Hungary, Poland and France due to financial restrictions and requisite expertise in each country to track anti-democratic attitudes, according to Küpper. Asked to respond to the statement that “Israel is conducting a war of extermination against the Palestinians,” 47.7 percent of the study’s participants in Germany expressed agreement – the highest number in Western Europe. The statement is a typical question used to probe attitudes about equating Israel with the Nazi campaign to exterminate European Jewry. The US State Department defines the comparison as an expression of modern anti- Semitism, as does the European Union." http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=212326 "Asked to respond to the statement that “Israel is conducting a war of extermination against the Palestinians,” 47.7 percent of the study’s participants in Germany expressed agreement – the highest number in Western Europe."
- Newly84
March 27, 2011 at 2:06pm
Newly - I'm sorry, but I am neither a lawyer nor student thereof. Instead, I am someone who enjoys a good debate. Of the style where a conclusion can be supported by a sound premise and logical connection. Normally I would ask for clarification on what "lawyerly kind of truth" means, but I won't bother here. I'll note that you declined to address my main question, so I'll give it a go. Playing devil's advocate, I could see an argument along the lines of, say: "Germany has a lot of immigrant Turks, and the are cowardly not helping the Libyans in the hopes of keeping the peace at home". Instead we get a link to an article showing that less than half of the polled Germans think that (basically white) Israel is waging a campaign against (dark skinned) Palestinians. Unfortunately the article didn't provide the responses to the same question for other countries. However for the more general anti-Semitic question (as opposed to a view on the actions of Israel), Germany seems less anti-Semitic than even Great Britain. Let alone the responses from Poland and Portugal! So your argument is that while few Germans admit to believing that Israel's actions justify not liking Jews, a non-trivial minority of Germans think that what (again, largely white) Israel is doing is genocidal (to dark skinned Pals), therefore the Germans won't "die for the sake of dark skinned libyans"? And instead of even conceding that there *might* be some pertinent history between Germany and Israel, or that there may be other reasons for their reticence, it must be due to racial animus?
- Nari224
March 27, 2011 at 4:07pm
For some people, all existence is seen through the lens of anti-Semitism and what can or cannot be analogized to anti-Semitism, attributed to anti-Semitism, dismissed as anti-Semitism, justified by anti-Semitism, etc., etc. Barring any actual connection, it suffices to note that some anti-Semite thought a similar thing or there exist anti-Semites in the same society. It is all crazy-making.
- roidubouloi
March 27, 2011 at 5:21pm
Some people don't wont' to admit the existence of antisemitism, period. There are many reasons. One of the most important ones is that it make life alot impler for them. I don't know about the current debate in Germany, but would any one be surprised if antisemitism still existed there?
- nr106646
March 27, 2011 at 7:04pm
There is also a lot of anti-Turkish racism in Germany. Racism and anti-Semitism isn't about arguments, it's about a fixed point of view. It's about seeing other people as less than human.
- Newly84
March 27, 2011 at 7:28pm
nr106646: Not sure I've seen anyone deny the existence or the problem of antisemitism. Also not sure what it has to do with the Libyans. Newly: Absolutely Germany has problems with Turkish racism. However it's not like France or England are racism free. Additionally, both of those countries have struggled with race riots in recent years, whereas Germany has not. While this clearly doesn't prove a lack of racial animus in Germany, it also doesn't lend much to the argument that Germany is more racist than two of the countries that are enforcing UNSC 1973. And while I completely agree with your final sentence (although the preceding one was less clear, I don't see what that has to do with your original statement. Which was, that the Germans aren't helping in Libya because Libyans are "dark skinned". You do realize that there are Germans dying in Afghanistan right? Or are Afghans sufficiently lighter skinned than Libyans to fit your thesis?
- Nari224
March 27, 2011 at 9:44pm
"Absolutely Germany has problems with Turkish racism." Nari224 it's difficult to carry on a discussion with you since you don't even seem to know what the subject. The article is about why Germany decided not to helpt stop Khadafi's murder of his own people. I also did not write about Turkish racism, but German anti-Tukish racism. This what I was writing about. I am not going to repeat what I already said. Yes, Germans are in Afghanistan but in a non combat capacity. They are there as members of NATO.
- Newly84
March 27, 2011 at 11:29pm
Newly: I'm sorry that you are confused, but you can scroll back up the page to regain the gist of the conversation, since my continually referring back to your original statement isn't helping, ie 03/26/2011 - 12:47pm EDT | Nari224 Newly84: "Germans were not asked to die for Scandinavians, but for Libyans. Had they the debate would have been much different." I was also talking about German racism towards Turks, but I'll concede I could have worded it differently. However my question still remains about how it is in the slightest bit Germaine to your original statement. And I would suggest you brush up on your facts before airily waving off Germany's non-combatant status. Wikipedia even has a page dedicated to "German Armed Forces Casualties in Afghanistan". Current count is 52 dead. That would be Germans that died for dark skinned Afghans. As for the "members of NATO", it's probably worth noting that Germany was one of the European countries that practically begged the US after 9/11 to allow them to help before being told to stick it, and that NATO is in Libya! So, any other red herrings to try and justify your bigotry, or is it just that "...there are many more things in Germany than my lawyerly mind can understand", but that you are also unable to articulate?
- Nari224
March 28, 2011 at 5:31pm
Nari224, racism isn't merely about skin color. This is basic. Anyway your answer doesn't address my concerns. This thread is sinking fast and I am not going to look into it anymore.
- Newly84
March 28, 2011 at 10:49pm