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Go Home For Young Women, a Horrifying Consequence of Mubarak’s...

WORLD OCTOBER 29, 2011

For Young Women, a Horrifying Consequence of Mubarak’s Overthrow

BY BETWA SHARMA

Cairo—Ali, a 34-year-old Cairo businessman who asked that his real name not be used, is weighing whether or not to circumcise his 12-year-old daughter. Female circumcision, or female genital mutilation (FGM), as it is also known, involves removing part or the entire clitoris. In more severe forms of the procedure, the labia minora is removed and the vaginal opening is stitched up. Ali’s wife has told him about her own experience; describing her story to me, he said, “It is her most terrible memory.” He has heard discussions on television of potential harm the procedure can cause, but he feels a responsibility to protect the chastity of his daughter until she is married. Three thousand years of tradition instruct him that circumcision is the best means to this end. And, in the post-Mubarak Egypt, there are fewer and fewer voices offering an alternative view. The decades-long movement to stop FGM has become a casualty of the power struggle in Egypt.

The campaign to end FGM in Egypt was fighting an uphill battle before the revolution. Although FGM was outlawed in 2007 after a 12-year-old girl died from the procedure, the practice is still widespread. Despite efforts to reduce it, the number of girls aged 15 to 17 who underwent FGM only dropped from 77 percent in 2005 to 74 percent in 2008, according to the 2008 Egypt Demographic and Health Survey (EDHS). EDHS also showed that 91 percent of all women in Egypt between the ages of 15 and 49 have undergone FGM. The practice is common not only among Muslims, but also in the Christian community, which constitutes 10 percent of the Egyptian population. A sanitized version of FGM has gained increased prevalence in recent years, presenting additional challenges. In 1995, only 45 percent of all FGM operations were conducted by doctors; by 2008, the percentage had risen to 72 percent. A young woman working as a maid and living in Cairo, who asked to be referred to only as Ayesha, did not even know that FGM is illegal. Her mother had put her through the procedure, and she told me that she would do the same. (Experts have found that the practice is mostly perpetuated by mothers making decisions for their daughters.) “Unless someone can show me what is wrong with it I don’t think there is any reason to change,” she said.

Since the revolution, international support for this fight has significantly waned. Political instability has led to a 75 percent cut in Egypt’s FGM-related donor funds to the United Nations since January, according to Marta Agosti, the head of the anti-FGM program for the U.N.Changeover among government ministers has also slowed official work. The National Council for Childhood and Motherhood, the government body charged with addressing the problem, was shuttered after the revolution, and there is concern among activists that the capacity of the Council will shrink in its new home under the Ministry of Health. Instability and a lack of funds have curtailed the day-to-day work of NGOs; less field work and fewer workshops are taking place, according to Agosti.

In addition to the general shrinking of U.N. and NGO funds and efforts, the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood as one of the strongest political forces attempting to fill the void left by Mubarak’s departure presents potential obstacles to the campaign to end FGM. While the Muslim Brotherhood does not have an official position on FGM, the group has, in the past, opposed a complete ban on the practice. “Nothing in Islam forbids circumcision,” said Saad El Katani, the leader of the Brotherhood in parliament in 2008. Some members of the Brotherhood have argued that opposition to a complete ban does not indicate support of the practice, but they generally don’t speak out against it.

For instance, Manal Abul-Hassan, a female leader of the Muslim Brotherhood who plans to run for parliamentary elections in November, told me that FGMis “not halal (permissible) and it’s not haram (forbidden).” She does not favor its complete ban and disagrees with the U.N. characterization of FGM as a human rights violation. (Many parents share Hassan’s view and reject the word “mutilation”—especially for procedures like removing the excess skin around the clitoris. Young women argue that certain kinds of circumcisions are no different from plastic surgery in the West.) Like others in the Muslim Brotherhood, Hassan sees the campaign against FGM as stealth promotion by NGOs of a Western agenda. Activists fear that the more traditionalist elements in the group pose a threat to their work—that attitudes like the one expressed by Hassan might harden to condone the procedure.

In addition, activists are also fighting the shadow of Suzanne Mubarak, who, for all her husband’s transgressions, was a force behind the campaign to end FGM. As the former dictator’s wife,Mubarak gave speeches and organized conferences opposing the practice, making her one of the most recognizable faces in the international fight against FGM. She played a key role in getting Christian and Muslim religious leaders to forbid the procedure, which had a far greater impact than the legal ban. After declaring their position, the fatwa office in Cairo—the office of the Grand Mufti of Egypt—set up a hotline; several anecdotes emerged about women changing their decision to go ahead with the practice based on advice they received from this hotline. Activists assert that their efforts to eliminate FGM were well underway before Suzanne Mubarak demonstrated interest in the issue. “We didn’t wait for Madame Mubarak to talk about FGM,” Sidhom Magdi, head of the Egyptian Association for Comprehensive Development, told me. But they do not deny that her involvement gave the movement political momentum that it had previously lacked.

Now, however, anything attached to the Mubaraks’ legacy is, if not explicitly tainted, an easy target. Civil society groups characterize Mubarak’s efforts as self-promoting. “She was devoid of a feminist vision or a socialist vision,” said Nihad Abu Kumsan, a lawyer and head of the Egyptian Centre for Women’s Rights. Hassan insists that FGM-related figures were exaggerated by the Egyptian government so that the former first lady could pocket international funds. “Suzanne Mubarak used these numbers to make money and steal money,” she told me. While most activists were not Mubarak supporters, the backlash troubles them. Agosti worries that Suzanne Mubarak’s previous involvement will “become an excuse to undo all the past work.”

For years, activists combating FGM in Egypt have described their fight as “painfully slow.” In the post-revolution Egypt, the process has become glacial. “We have no leader and we have no strategy,” said Kumsan. The U.N., aware of that the issue is a minefield, is also keeping a low profile for the time being. “We have to be very careful right now as we don’t want the issue to be captured by the ultra-orthodox,” said Agosti, expressing a fear that the U.N. will be characterized as an agency promoting the Western agenda or worse, Mubarak’s legacy.

Ali, the Cairo businessman, and his wife ultimately decided against FGM for their daughter. “We don’t want to change what God has created,” he told me. In making this decision, Ali is already among the minority of parents who reject FGM. This minority is in danger of shrinking further in the new Egypt.

Betwa Sharma is a New York-based journalist who covers human rights. Her work can be found at www.betwasharma.com.

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59 comments

Ugh. I reallty do love the Arab people, but shit like this makes it tough to not cave in to the same racism and islamophobia that has risen like a plague since 9/11. What an abomination.

- Tristan

October 29, 2011 at 2:34am

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Racism toward Arabs and others is never warranted. But Islamophobia is completely justified. Islam is a toxic, totalitarian religion and political system, not a race.

- amidut

October 29, 2011 at 6:27am

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Should we be similarly repulsed by circumcision?

- rayward

October 29, 2011 at 9:38am

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Ray, they can hardly be compared. Come on.

- Tristan

October 29, 2011 at 10:19am

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I lived in Detroit for 12 years and came in contact with some of the many Arabs in the area. I saw first-hand the attitude of most Arab and/or Muslim males towards women. They don't like 'em. Often they hate 'em. The Westerner's disgust with FGM is cultural, not racial. The ugly practice is passed on through generations, so a female will experience less pleasure in sex and not be tempted to get out from under her husband's thumb. And the article mentioned a critical component in the oppression of Arab women--other Arab women, especially mothers and grandmothers. They often act as informants to keep their daughters and granddaughters in line. It's a pretty nasty culture, based on the fear of all concerned, including males. Fortunately, there are brave souls inside the culture who are working for change. But as the article suggests, progress in reversing the habits of generations is glacial.

- magboy47.

October 29, 2011 at 10:40am

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Muslim mothers also often aid and abet the honor killings of straying young adult daughters, even in Europe and North America. Muslim leaders are doing all they can to stigmatize legitimate criticism of Islam by labeling it as "Islamophobia" or "blasphemy". Too many useful fools, usually on the Left, are acquiescing to this.

- amidut

October 29, 2011 at 11:45am

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"Muslim mothers also often aid and abet the honor killings of straying young adult daughters, even in Europe and North America." Really? How often? Do Muslim mothers do this daily? Weekly? As for FGM itself, this article is specifically about Egypt, and notes that the frequency among Egyptian Copts is comparable to that among Muslims. Globally, it's as much associated with non-Muslim (often Christian) and non-Arab populations as with either Arabs or Muslims: it would be hard to explain the elevated rates in, say, Ethiopia, by looking for all the Arabs there. See for example http://books.google.com/books?id=dVjIP0RfVAMC&pg=PA6#v=onepage&q&f=false And yes, the fact that this article immediately descended into Muslim-bashing is a good illustration of just how virulent Islamophobia is at TNR.

- SMacEachern2

October 29, 2011 at 3:57pm

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What's a problem in the US is denial that a problem even exists in Egypt. I saw piece on FGM in Egypt on HuffPo, I think, and the comment thread was one denial after another than FGM exists there in anywhere near the numbers cited, if at all. Indeed the author was blamed for being a tool. I don't understand why people aren't up and down screaming their heads off about this. Women constitute at least 50% of the humans on earth. When are we going to stop being brutally victimized and oppressed? I'll tell you one thing, denial in the West isn't helping matters.

- Sophia

October 29, 2011 at 5:26pm

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On that score, Rick Perry go soak your head.

- Sophia

October 29, 2011 at 5:26pm

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SMacEachern may google "honor killings" and "honor killings in Europe (or America)" for more details. In the chart he linked, FGM is evidently more prevalent in Muslim majority countries. I cannot absolve Coptic Egypt and Ethiopia, except to say that they are strong influenced by social norms in the surrounding Islamic societies. And many Muslims live in Ethiopia. As he may recall from the article of this discussion, Islamic revival has dealt a serious blow to efforts to reduce FGM in Egypt. The subjugation of women is more hard-wired into Islam. I would not go so far as Mac does when he wrote, "Globally, it's as much associated with non-Muslim (often Christian) and non-Arab populations as with either Arabs or Muslims."

- amidut

October 29, 2011 at 5:35pm

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Also, Islam is a hugely influential religion. A statement against FGM, no ifs, ands or buts would have a major impact around the world.

- Sophia

October 29, 2011 at 5:59pm

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rayward, gimme a break -- at the very least male circumcision is neutral as far as sexual pleasure goes, and in many respects can be seen as enhancing it (for later, obviously, if the male is a young child when cirucmcised). That's the complete opposite of what FGM does.

- ironyroad

October 29, 2011 at 6:17pm

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Leave it to SMacEachern2 to come up with apologia for what is called female circumcision. How many Muslim clerics have tried to stop its practice anywhere in the world?

- arnon

October 29, 2011 at 6:45pm

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Ray Ward would introduce male circumcision as if it were the equivalent of female mutilation.

- arnon

October 29, 2011 at 6:46pm

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ironyroad "rayward, gimme a break -- at the very least male circumcision is neutral as far as sexual pleasure goes, and in many respects can be seen as enhancing it (for later, obviously, if the male is a young child when cirucmcised)." Absolutely, I had a roommate in the service, an African American who wanted to marry a young woman from a small Protestant sect that circumcised their children I think they were Seven Day Advents. The lady would only marry him if he got himself circumcised. After he went through it (and it's not painless for adults, though he got plenty of pain numbing medication) he felt fine. A couple of years later he told me that he didn't experience any diminution in pleasure. Given that his wife was pregnant it also didn't hurt his reproductive capacities. Some people equate male circumcision with castration and its been a cause of antisemitism in the West.

- arnon

October 29, 2011 at 6:54pm

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Sophia the left and some liberals since it has made common cause with Islamists and see them as oppressed have been criticizing anyone, including liberal Muslims who has brought to our attention these barbaric practices. That these useful idiots should call others "tools" is risible.

- arnon

October 29, 2011 at 6:58pm

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I've got a term for the procedure, at least the radical version of it -- female castration. It avoids the obviously pejorative term "mutilation" but still conveys something wrong.

- sighthnd

October 29, 2011 at 11:12pm

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arnon in the case of FGM the practice does extend into Africa and other societies that are not predominately Muslim. So Islamism isn't really the issue so much as post-colonialism, imo; we are told that all cultures are created equal and that to criticize another, especially one formerly colonized by a Western power, is wrong and an insult to to indigenous people. There is a point to that but it goes too far. For example there is much that is admirable and beautiful about Arab culture. But, it is perfect? Of course not and I don't see why we can't admire Egypt, its achievements, history and people without accepting the practice of FGM. It's like saying all aspects of Western culture are wonderful when we clearly realize they are not and that we can learn and improve; well, so can others and I think it's ok to say that. By the same token it's absurd to make false equivalences, for example between FGM and nose jobs. But, people do, they try to claim it's just a matter of aesthetics which is of course completely false.

- Sophia

October 30, 2011 at 12:25am

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Also, I don't see how we can be promoting democracy without mentioning women's rights. This is a serious human rights issue; 50% of the world's people cannot be held as property and abused indefinitely.

- Sophia

October 30, 2011 at 12:26am

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Racism is pretty yesterday. So is homophobia. The real problem is our species. Unfortunately, I am a human being, so it would be difficult for me to be speciest. (Is there such a word?) I am watching the old science fiction movie, STARSHIP TROOPERS, in which (incredibly square-jawed) humans are being menaced by incredibly ugly and nasty alien bugs. I haven't watched the entire movie yet, but I suspect the alien bugs don't perform female castration on each other. I suppose it would be tacky for me to cheer for the bugs. Even so ...

- skahn

October 30, 2011 at 12:31am

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A couple of points about circumcision (from a circumcised gentile). First, if nonconsensual neonatal circumcision were replace by adolescent or post-adolescent consensual circumcision, I suspect the line for the procedure would be very short. Second, even neonatal circumcision performed by the ob/gyn is not without complications; and while it's the ob/gyn or mohel who performs the procedure, neither treats the complications. Indeed, most complications are never even reported, so the magnitude of the problem is unknown. Third, while there may be theoretical medical benefits to circumcision, such as the spread of STDs, the theoretical benefits are almost never compared to the complications actually suffered. Finally, lest we "forget", nonconsensual neonatal circumcision is a religious practice (a brit milah), not a medical one. The cutting issue for the Brothers and other early followers of Messiah Jesus was whether the practice of circumcision had to be continued, and one's position on the issue often decided his or her inclusion or exclusion from the followers. Paul may have thought he settled that issue, but he didn't end the practice.

- rayward

October 30, 2011 at 8:51am

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Well, Rayward, I was circumcised at birth and I don't have any complaints about it. The issue here is female genital mutilation and not male circumcision.

- arnon

October 30, 2011 at 9:55am

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Sophia "arnon in the case of FGM the practice does extend into Africa and other societies that are not predominately Muslim." Yes, but many of the practitioners of FGM are Muslims and of course the Muslim religion if it cares about women should speak out against it. If Christians or Jews also practiced it in Africa I would also expect their respective clergy to preach against it.

- arnon

October 30, 2011 at 9:59am

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skahn "Racism is pretty yesterday. So is homophobia. The real problem is our species." SKahn expects me to criticize him. I am not going to because anyone who writes the kinds of comments he wrote above is above criticism. He is irrelevant. btw: S Kahn if the problem is the "human species" how come you became so "un-human." How did you come to overcome the species problem with your humane views?

- arnon

October 30, 2011 at 10:03am

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Arnon: Thank you for informing me that I am "irrelevant." As I now view myself as an "ethical nihilist" rather than an "atheist," I am not sure words such as "relevant" and "irrelevant" have any meaning. On the other hand, as a member of the human species, a produce of evolution, I am programmed by my genetics to reproduce (one genetic daughter, so not contributing to overpopulation a great deal) and to survive (so I take fish oil, visit the gym, and socialize). Arnon asks "how become you become so 'un-human'?" Social science seems to indicate that about 1-5% of human beings are sociopaths. Cup half full point of view: 95% of human beings are not sociopaths. My daughter still speaks to me; I do not murder, rape, or torture, I occasionally do a small good deed; as an atheist child and young adult I was stirred and unsettled by "Huckleberry Finn," "The Lottery," "Good Soldier Schweik," "Animal Farm/1984," etc. I once (through legal means) stopped a nasty Ponzi Scheme. I don't know if phrases such as "free will," and "personal responsibility," have any meaning, but in all its irrelevant glory there is my answer. How are you relevant? [Asked seriously and not intended disrespectfully, if you got this far,]

- skahn

October 30, 2011 at 2:13pm

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There's actually a pretty good map of FGM prevalences in Africa available at http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Fgm_map.svg - it's noted that it's based on pretty uncertain estimates, but it gives a general sense of the frequency of the practise in different areas, and the map is in line with WHO data. Take a look at that map and tell me that this is specifically an Arab, or specifically a Muslim, issue. Folks who want to pretend that it is are more interested in stoking Islamophobia that in helping the girls and women afflicted by this practise.

- SMacEachern2

October 30, 2011 at 2:46pm

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arnon: "If Christians or Jews also practiced it in Africa I would also expect their respective clergy to preach against it." Practitioners of both religions (not only Copts, but many other Christian populations, Beta israel and etc) practise FGM. It's condemned by religious leaders in those communities about as often as by religious leaders in practising Muslim communities - ie, not often.

- SMacEachern2

October 30, 2011 at 2:51pm

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Muslims are responsible for their behavior regardless of who else practices FGM. The failure of Islamic clergy to condemn FGM and honor killings is appalling. Mac minimizes their failures yet reserves his opprobrium for Israel whenever possible.

- amidut

October 30, 2011 at 3:05pm

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amidut:"Muslims are responsible for their behavior regardless of who else practices FGM." Quite right. And, of course, an article about FGM in Egypt (where it's practised by both Muslims and Christians) when it hits the boards at TNR immediately generates the assumption that it's specifically a Muslim practise and that that shows how uncivilised Muslims are. Just trying to introduce a little data from the reality-based community....

- SMacEachern2

October 30, 2011 at 4:01pm

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Looking at the map linked to above I would guess that the majority of F G M are performed in the northern third of the continent. Which is to say that those areas that came under the evil imperialists in the 19c have seen a dramatic diminution of the practice. Imperialism whatever its other faults did have an effect of suppressing the practice. Just as Mubarak's wife helped make the practice illegal under her husbands rule.

- arnon

October 30, 2011 at 5:00pm

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Mr. Kahn your posts are so full of generalities that they don't mean anything, period.

- arnon

October 30, 2011 at 5:01pm

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Arnon, I suggest your repeated comments to me are a sign of an addiction. An addiction may be to a substance or may be a "behavioral addiction" (such as watching television, logging on to the Internet, reading a magazine (such as TNR), or perhaps making comments about skahn. "behavioral addiction includes a compulsion to repeatedly engage in an action until said action causes serious negative consequences to the person's physical, mental, social, and/or financial well-being." [Wikipedia] I presume that a sensible person such as you would have gained control (or sought professional assistance) if you life was suffering negative consequences. Therefore (I think there is a Latin tag, but I forget it) I conclude that in your case, reading my comments brings benefits to your physical, mental, social, and financial well-being. As I like to do good deeds, I will carry on, and blush and tingle with pleasure whenever I see one of your comments addressed to me.

- skahn

October 30, 2011 at 5:26pm

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By the way, as sensible and intelligent spiritual (if not physical) Siamese (if not actually Siamese) twins, Armon, we both agree about female circumcision. It is an abomination and should be stopped. Everyone reading this who engages in it. Stop. Now. That means you.

- skahn

October 30, 2011 at 5:28pm

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skahn "Arnon, I suggest your repeated comments to me are a sign of an addiction." I suggest you are full of shit. First, you dared me to criticize you on a blog when I hadn't said anything to you. Now you say that I am "addicted to you." It isn't me who addicted, Kahn. Moreover, I criticize different posts that make claims I find spurious. This is what a public is all about. If you participate in a public forum you are asking people to comment on your posts.

- arnon

October 30, 2011 at 5:31pm

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arnon: " I would guess that the majority of F G M are performed in the northern third of the continent. Which is to say that those areas that came under the evil imperialists in the 19c have seen a dramatic diminution of the practice" Essentially the whole continent was under colonial control by late in the 19th century. Some of the areas with elevated frequencies of FGM (Senegambia, Sierra Leone and etc) were under European control for extended periods in the 19th century. There were some 20th century colonial attempts to outlaw the practise in places like Kenya, but they were pretty ineffective. Sorry, but that explanation doesn't work either.

- SMacEachern2

October 30, 2011 at 5:35pm

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Ray, nobody is denying that male cirucmcision can't in the one or the other case have complications, but I don't see how that challenges the basic distinction I and others have made above. Unless your point is something I'm just not getting -- always possible.

- ironyroad

October 30, 2011 at 5:52pm

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Thanks, irony. And what is the distinction? That my religious practices trump yours, that my Book was inspired by God but yours wasn't. Little is made of circumcision because there's nobody to complain; but cut on a male's penus at adolesence or later and the complaints would be loud and clear. And the line to have a circumcision would be short. Is FGM barbaric? Yes. Is circumcision barbaric? Yes, unless you believe God is perfect, except when it comes to the penus.

- rayward

October 30, 2011 at 6:22pm

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SMacEachern2 "Essentially the whole continent was under colonial control by late in the 19th century. Some of the areas with elevated frequencies of FGM (Senegambia, Sierra Leone and etc) were under European control for extended periods in the 19th century. There were some 20th century colonial attempts to outlaw the practise in places like Kenya, but they were pretty ineffective. Sorry, but that explanation doesn't work either." Well, apparently the colonialists were more successful in reducing the practice in places were Islam wasn't the religious of the majority. No one said that they were successful everywhere. I was just pointing to your map and not offering an all encompassing explanation. Besides your defense of Islam would be more believable if you didn't say that others do it too and leave it at that. If someone attacked Christians in Europe for slaughtering each other during centuries of warfare when their religion tells them to turn "the other cheek." Claiming that non Christian heathens also murder would be a pretty poor defense. Islam is a pretty ferocious religion and quite capable of outlawing practices it deems offensive like drinking or eating pork, etc. That they chose not to outlaw female mutilations means that they don't think it's that important. Your claim that others do it also is a pretty poor defense of the practice.

- arnon

October 30, 2011 at 6:35pm

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rayward, circumcision among new born is an age old practice in Judaism. It doesn't harm babies by denying them physical pleasure, nor does it stunt their growth it also doesn't affect their intelligence judging from the number of circumcised Nobel prize winners. In any case infants are born into all kind of situations that will affect their identity, their biology, their way of life and even their speech. The have no say what language they are born into. That's a fact of existence. (Neither do they have a say in which species a living organisms develops into.) Circumcision among non Jews in the US was and is done for medical reasons. From what I understand male circumcision is being performed in Africa because it lessens the chances of aids transmission. If that is not a valid reason than one can argue the point. However, to say that all circumcisions should be outlawed because you didn't want to be circumcised is as silly as my saying that every should be circumcised because I was.

- arnon

October 30, 2011 at 6:47pm

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http://www.jpost.com/Features/InTheSpotlight/Article.aspx?id=133816 "Sir Roger Moore, the British-born star of seven James Bond films, will donate the fee he earns from appearing at the fourth International Eilat Chamber Music Festival to a UNICEF program where Israeli expertise is used in training doctors to perform male circumcision as a way of reducing AIDS transmission in Africa. Since 1991, Moore has been a UNICEF "goodwill ambassador" promoting women's and children's health. He was inspired to work for UNICEF by the late actress Audrey Hepburn, herself a "goodwill ambassador," after being deeply moved by India's poverty while filming a movie there. In a phone interview with The Jerusalem Post, Moore said he had a growing interest in the importance of health and disease prevention, and said his visit was meant to promote HIV awareness and education. "Prevention is the best cure of disease," he added. He disclosed that he himself had been circumcised at the initiative of his parents when he was eight. "It was the unkindest cut of all," he joked. "But really, it was for hygienic reasons. My two sons [now 42 and 35] have been circumcised as well. They have never complained." In the spring of 2007, the World Health Organization, UNAIDS and UNICEF recognized "compelling evidence" that adult male circumcision was an "additional important intervention" that could reduce the risk of HIV transmission. [-] Together with experts from UN organizations, they say that male circumcision should always be considered part of a comprehensive HIV prevention package that includes HIV testing and counselling services, treatment for sexually transmitted infections, the promotion of safer sex practices, and the provision of condoms and diaphragms, with instruction as to their correct and consistent use."

- noga1

October 30, 2011 at 7:07pm

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No, Ray, the distinction is that male circumcision in general is not a health risk, does not mutilate the penis beyond the removed foreskin, and does not destroy or even compromise the possibility of sexual expression and enjoyment. Indeed one can make an argument that its effects can be positive in those areas. As far as barbarism goes, if one takes what used to be the practice in some Polynesian societies of elongating a girl's clitoris gently over many years, one can certainly describe it as barbaric, but when one considers that the purpose was to increase and enhance the sexual pleasure of the woman, then perhaps the barbaric/civilized binary isn't quite the measure we're looking for here. Penus = Our Willie?

- ironyroad

October 30, 2011 at 7:45pm

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arnon: "Well, apparently the colonialists were more successful in reducing the practice in places were Islam wasn't the religious of the majority." That makes no sense. The impact of colonialism on FGM was very limited, and there's nothing on that map that indicates that colonial powers were more successful at limiting the practise in non-Muslim areas. Absolutely nothing. If you have other information to the contrary, I'd be interested in seeing it. As for bringing in other religions.... the article is about _Egypt_. In _Egypt_, Copts practise FGM as do Muslims. Any initiatives that treated this as a Muslim-only problem would leave Christian Copt women and girls particularly vulnerable to being forced to undergo FGM. I presume that's not a solution you'd support?

- SMacEachern2

October 30, 2011 at 8:05pm

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SMacEachern2 Give me a break, Mac. Look at the map Egypt the Sudan, Somalia are in the 95- 100 percent category of FGM. These are not just African nations they are Muslim countries going back for more than a millennia. I assume that the number of FGM in South Africaand perhaps Southern Africa is much smaller. Your bringing up the Copts in Egypt is a red herring, while a sizable minority it’s still a minority in Egypt. Here is a key point of the article under discussion: "In addition to the general shrinking of U.N. and NGO funds and efforts, the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood as one of the strongest political forces attempting to fill the void left by Mubarak’s departure presents potential obstacles to the campaign to end FGM. While the Muslim Brotherhood does not have an official position on FGM, the group has, in the past, opposed a complete ban on the practice. “Nothing in Islam forbids circumcision,” said Saad El Katani, the leader of the Brotherhood in parliament in 2008. Some members of the Brotherhood have argued that opposition to a complete ban does not indicate support of the practice, but they generally don’t speak out against it." Mac's view that Muslims can do no wrong gets in the way of understanding and working against FGM. It's one of those ironies of history that under the dictator Mubarak the practice wasn't condoned while now under the banner of democracy it's increasing. Tell us mac who is paying you to justify Islamicist practices? Just curious.

- arnon

October 30, 2011 at 9:03pm

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Arnon says: "I suggest you are full of shit. " Perhaps thinks: Readers will admire my cogent, relevant, specific critical comments. At one point, you accused me of admiring and emulating Rod McKuen and Khalil Gibran. As you know nothing of what I like and emulate, I was prepared to deconstruct your other comments as the products of an idiot. By and large, your other comments seem appropriate, intelligent, coherent, and seem to follow your own standards of what good comments should be, and not in the least the products of an idiot. Perhaps you might consider staying with what you seem to do best. On the other hand, you seem to be unable to refrain from commenting on my comments, which march to my own drummer. I can keep this up as long as you can, or until one of us becomes too ill, too weary, or too distracted to keep this up. Or until someone at TNR says, "Stop it." As we are both (though I infer in your case) paying subscribers, the TNR PTB are infer reluctant to start moderating the comments section; though frankly, their attitude probably comes down to "Frankly, my dears, we don't give a damn." BTW, if you suffer from the condition of which you accuse me; metamucil (or a generic version) does wonders. Close the door and turn on the fan first; that's a good fellow.

- skahn

October 30, 2011 at 10:04pm

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OK, here's a relevant, specific comment that is On Topic, with no snide comments about "He Who Must Not Be Named"). For a while I had work done on my car by one of the best repair garages in our Puget Sound area. The owner had an odd (to my American) name; being quasi-tactless [QT] I asked him the origin. "Palestinian," he said. In my continuing QT fashion, I asked, "I presume it's not a matter of concern to you that my ancestors were Jewish?" He said, "Oh, we were Christian Palestinians." In subsequent conversation he told me of he and his brothers hiding under their beds in Palestine as bullets flew through their walls; of his family moving to Saudi Arabia where one of his uncles had business connections with the then Saudi king. "However, we were not comfortable with Saudi Arabia; for one thing, my sisters did not want to wear veils." He didn't elaborate, but in keeping with the topic of this discussion, there may have been other things he sisters (and his family) were not comfortable with. I am certainly not a Christian (and I have doubt about how deep this family's Christianity runs); I am probably (especially by TNR standards) not a Jew, but as my ancestors were Jews, if the Nazis come, I will say, "Hell, yes, I am a Jew!" and probably choose to go down in a hail of gunfire because what the shit, I am 67 years old, and it might be a better way to go then dying slowly and painfully in a hospital bed. (Instead of "suicide by cop," "suicide by fighting Nazis" might be a good tag.) Anyway, while I consider all religious belief nonsense, some religious beliefs are more obnoxiously nonsensical than others. In the time since the low points of Christianity (Inquisition, Catholic vs. Protestant religious wars, Scottish/English witch persecutions, etc.), Christianity has cleaned up its act quite a bit. The jury is a little further out on Islam, but let's avoid tarring all Muslims with one brush.

- skahn

October 30, 2011 at 10:23pm

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Hurrrah! I solved the italic bug!

- skahn

October 30, 2011 at 10:24pm

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arnon: "Tell us mac who is paying you to justify Islamicist practices? Just curious." Why, the International Islamist Conspiracy, don'cha know? It's like ZOG, but the pathetic paranoia is turned in the opposite direction. Y'know, I periodically used to encounter on-line neo-nazis like you, back about 10 years ago when I was being accused of being a creature of ZOG: the hatred and the paranoia and the utter inability to even think of buying a clue were exactly the same. Ironic, innit? Back to the real world... if you look at that map, you'll note that Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya - all colonised, majority Arab and Muslim - have very low levels of FGM. In neither that case nor the other colonial cases did colonial governments have any significant effect on frequencies of FGM. And sorry, but I did read the entire article. If you think that a 'Horrifying Consequence' is the same as a 'potential problem', you can add reading comprehension to your other intellectual challenges.

- SMacEachern2

October 30, 2011 at 10:25pm

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“Why, the International Islamist Conspiracy, don'cha know? It's like ZOG, but the pathetic paranoia is turned in the opposite direction.” You are really a pathetic twit, Mac. Every Islamic website, many of whom have made common cause with the Nazis, talk about the “Jewish Zionist world conspiracy.” Only a deranged pro Islamist like you would pretend that the belief in an “Islamic world conspiracy” is a similar to the belief in a “Zog.” For one thing Muslim are the majority in large parts of the globe and don’t need to conspire in secret. This is all part of your continued attempt to white wash Islamic barbarities by claiming that they are victims and not perpetrators. It’s hard to believe that a person unaffiliated with Muslim group would spend his time apologizing (in the sense of justifying) for Muslims. In this you are not unique, though not as good at it as some others of your ilk. There are many British and Canadian “intellectuals” who try to whitewash Islamic terrorists. They are all over the Guardian a British anti-Jewish rag: “Friends of Raed Salah: Is the Guardian a Newspaper?” http://hurryupharry.org/2011/10/30/friends-of-raed-salah-is-the-guardian-a-newspaper/ In the same way, the Mac is an apologist for FGM in Egypt by claiming that it’s practiced in non Islamic societies also. You are worse the neo--Nazis because more hypocritical.

- arnon

October 30, 2011 at 11:22pm

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Here is more on pro Islamic antisemites: http://hurryupharry.org/2011/10/30/friends-of-raed-salah-the-c-of-e-backed-amos-trust-and-the-blood-libel/ "Friends of Raed Salah: The C of E-backed “Amos Trust” and the blood libel"

- arnon

October 30, 2011 at 11:24pm

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As I said, man, I'm fairly used to folks like you, so you don't bother me much. The same paranoia, the same race-baiting, the same structured ignorance of the world... you could fit in very well with the National Alliance, or posting on Stormfront about how terrible the Jews are and how there's this international conspiracy of leftist Jew-lovers (many of them the same people you hate) who are subverting the White West. Only the terms change: the bullshit paranoia remains the same.

- SMacEachern2

October 30, 2011 at 11:35pm

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Well, once again we return to an old problem: escaping the past. We can argue endlessly about who (individually and collectively) did what to whom in the past. The casting of blame and the rehearsing of recriminations is endless. We are in the present. We cannot change the past. We can only work in the present on making a better future. Muslims and Jews and Christians (and who knows what else) and all their divisions and subdivisions live in the Middle East. It would probably be better if everyone had been separated at birth (going back to grandparents or great-grands), but here everyone is and they can learn to live together or they can keep killing each other. As much as possible people deserve not to suffer, not by war, not by starvation, not by FGM. As much as possible, people deserve to get whatever non-destructive pleasure and joy the can out of life, which includes having unimpaired sex and inflicting the existential dilemma on new beings (their children). We can work toward decreasing pain and increasing pleasure for as many as possible, or we can indulge ourselves by casting blame and trading insults. FGM and suicide bombing is more common (though not universal) in the Middle East and among Muslim cultures. As wonderful as we consider ourselves here in the USA, we have our flaws and crimes. Let's work on making it all better. How about a positive suggestion from one of the warriors here?

- skahn

October 30, 2011 at 11:48pm

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SMacEachern2 “Only the terms change: the bullshit paranoia remains the same.” This applies to you, Mac. Your hypocritical bullshit is out there for all to see. Your pretense to being a non racist is laughable. Your antiracism doesn’t extend to women being mutilated by the very people you support, nor does it extend to those who are fighting the extremist in Islamic societies. The Nazis you conjure up are yesterday’s demons. They have no power and no legitimacy today. Today the antisemites are the Islamicists of the Muslim Brotherhood and their ilk. Like your friends at the Guardian you make common cause with them, you deny their misogyny and antisemitism in order to help reintroduce it again in democratic societies: all under the guise of “antiracism.” You are not an antiracist, Mac, you are a fraud and a hater. Now fuck off, Mac the bigot.

- arnon

October 30, 2011 at 11:51pm

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Doesn't anybody see the irony of leftists like Sophia and neo-Nazis like SMachearn2 taking the same pro-Islamist position? Except that's not really ironic. More a matter of birds of a feather flocking together. It's trite but true: extremes meet.

- bulbman1066

October 31, 2011 at 1:54am

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Sophia takes a pro-islamist position? Can you provide an example? (That smac is a born-again virulent antisemite in the guise of an "anti-fascist anti-racist" is beyond dispute).

- noga1

October 31, 2011 at 7:08am

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Post Mubarak Egypt: "Coptic Christian Student Murdered By Classmates for Wearing a Cross" http://www.aina.org/news/20111030133621.htm Must be a cultural and not a religious matter, right?

- arnon

October 31, 2011 at 10:35am

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When my daughter and her partner decided to have a baby (via artificial insemination with sperm from a gay friend), my wife and I said to them, "Terrific! We support you all the way." In private, my wife and I said, "Good grief. Why would anybody want to bring a baby into today's horrible world?" The child with two mommies and two daddies is now seven, a bright, attractive, talented child. One of these days, if I live long enough, I will take her aside, and say, "I hate to tell you this, sweet grandchild, but we (humans of my generation) have really fucked stuff up. It's now your job to save civilization. Get cracking." Then I will will hand her printouts of this comment thread, with red circles around the last three comments (8:22 pm, 8:24pm, and 8:35pm), just to show her how daunting the task will be. If people here, on the TNR website, intelligent and informed people, cannot demonstrate even the barest essentials of civilized and constructive conversation and discourse, what hope is there?

- skahn

October 31, 2011 at 10:52am

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"(8:22 pm, 8:24pm, and 8:35pm)" are not the last three comments. Perhaps, skahn, this glitch ought to reconsider your own fitness to pass on any judgment whatsoever to a young and bright child. Be careful what you say to her that you will not put despair into her heart before she has a chance to experience all that is beautiful and good in this world.

- noga1

October 31, 2011 at 11:55am

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... this glitch ought to make you reconsider ...

- noga1

October 31, 2011 at 11:58am

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Wait a second. It's true that FGM isn't limited to Muslim countries and it is also true that many majority Muslim countries have no FGM, and that it predates Islam by millenia probably. I did say this: I believe, given the scope and power of Islam around the world, it would be a huge influence for good if Muslim clerics would speak out against mutilating women. I don't see what is served by the theological hairsplitting in this case. Also, it reflects a fact that is distressing, also common to other religions, which is that old books, fairy tales, origin myths and so forth continue to trump common sense and compassion in the real world.

- Sophia

November 4, 2011 at 3:17pm

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