The New Republic

"The Obama administration is blind to the fact that this terror gang is far more powerful on the streets and in the sands than the Palestinian Administration." I don't believe for a second that the Obama administration is unaware of Hamas' power and influence, whether in absolute terms or in relation to the PA. It's fine to call the administration's policy weak or wrongheaded or whatever; that's your opinion. But making silly claims like this makes those opinions less credible.

- acbrod

September 1, 2010 at 12:45am

We may have to consider the three-state solution as the most practical option.

- NR114746

September 1, 2010 at 1:10am

First of all on a personal note: One of those murdered in the "peace sacrifice" (to use Yitzchak Rabin's rather Orwellian term) was the son-in-law of a couple who live in Efrat. During dinner my wife was phoned by the head of Efrat's social services department (where she works) to be on call if needed to go to the family, inform them about the murder, and help them through the initial stages of dealing with the tragedy (she has received special training for this extremely difficult task and unfortunately she has had to use that training). Thankfully (for us) because of an administrative snafu, the call went to the social services head of a neighboring municipality who happens to live in Efrat. Also the pregnant woman who was killed worked as an aide in one of Efrat's special needs kindergartens. Contrary to the "conventional wisdom" expressed in Western media Hamas is also relatively strong in much of, if not most of, the so-called "West Bank", in particular the metro Hebron area where the shooting occurred. Are the Obamanoids fully aware of Hamas' power, influence and ideology? I have my doubts. The Divine Mr. O marched in to the Oval Office with a very rigid paradigm of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and how it could and should be resolved. That paradigm leaves no room for an Islamist Hamas or a Fatah & PLO (the mainstays of the "moderate" Abu Mazen & the P.A.) who pass resolutions in their governing bodies that justify the use of force against Israelis. And this also helps explains many of Obama's disastrous policies vis a vis Israel since taking office. As Thomas Kuhn noted many years ago paradigms determine epistemology. In other words don't confuse them, or most of the mainstream western media for that matter, with facts that don't fit their paradigm. Note that Abu Mazen (a.k.a. Mahmoud Abbas) always (or at least since advent of the Olso era) condemns terrorist attacks by saying that they are against Palestinian interests. To the best of my recollection he has never said that they are immoral because they are attacking innocent civilians. For a very simple reason. In the eyes of the "moderate" PLO, Fatah, let alone Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, etc., etc. there is no such thing as an Israeli who is an innocent civilian. In their mind, at best, they are either soldiers or potential soldiers and in all events dhimmi who have to be re-relegated to their proper place in society, if not six feet under. That is also why other members of the Palestinian leadership always respond to the naive and usefully idiotic journalists' request for condemnation of a terrorist attack by saying that they always condemn violence against innocent civilians - with the unstated caveat (but understood by their constituents) that Israelis in general, and "settlers" in particular, are never innocent civilians. Another reason that Abu Mazen always couches his "condemnation" in terms of the "interests of the Palestinian people" is that in his mind there are times that it may be in the Palestinians' interest to carry out terrorist attacks. Sometimes it's instructive to pay attention to some of the details surrounding killings like these. For example, remember the triumphant joy on the face of the Palestinian who stuck his face out the window from the Ramallah police building where two Israeli reservists were pummeled to death to show off his bloody arms? Last night the IDF, MDA, & police units who first arrived at the scene found the car riddled with bullets (from at least two different weapons), the doors open, but the bodies were tossed on the road. They also found more spent shells near the bodies. This means that after the initial shooting the terrorists dragged the victims out of the car and shot them again just to make sure they were dead. Allah forbid that the medical rescue teams might be able to save one or two of them or maybe maybe even the unborn child from the pregnant vicitm. But as my wife notes, we are having peace now. And speaking of the rigidity of press paradigms when it comes to reporting on the middle east, I strongly recommend reading Claire Berlinski's revealing article in Standpoint (here) on press freedom (or more correctly, the lack thereof) in Turkey & how the government controls information in Turkey, coupled with the supremely cooperative useful idiots in the Western media who don't see or won't report what is really going on there. It seems that there is an epidemic of Roger Cohen in Istanbul. Claire Berlinski is an American writer & journalist & blogger who has been living in Istanbul for about 5 years and speaks Turkish and / or has a Turkish partner & significant other who obviously does. Warning: Do not read the Berlinski piece if you suffer from terminal political correcticism, dream in progressobabbelian, or think that the NY Times really does report all the news that is fit to print or upload to the Internet. No sense in busting yer bubble. נקווה לבשורות טובות -- We should hope for better news, Hershel Ginsburg Jerusalem / Efrata P.S. Memo to the ostensibly omniscient NY Times and the J Street Jerks & Jesters: To the extent that violence against Israelis is down during the past couple of years, first and foremost its because of extensive IDF & security forces' intelligence & peremptory efforts to get terrorists in their bed, before they go off to do their deeds. This requires access to the P.A. areas, which presumably won't be the case after a "peace" agreement, especially if a "robust" international force is in place (see UNIFIL). The vast majority of Israelis understand this and that is one of the reasons that electoral support for the Israeli left (Labor + Meretz) has plummeted from a combined ~55 seats to a combined 16 seats (out of 120 total). A story not reported in the West (as far as I know) and even under-reported in the Israeli media (you can guess why) is that Meretz (currently 3 seats) recently ran a campaign to sign up more new members in the fond hope that it will translate into electoral strength in the next election (a common technique used by Israeli parties). The campaign failed miserably. The Israeli left is disappearing because Israelis have been mugged repeatedly by the pollyannish promises of the Oslo Accordians and assorted other peace processors.

- ginzy

September 1, 2010 at 6:35am

NR114746 You mean the 4 state solution: One Jewish state in Israel (with an Arab minority) and three Judenrein (by law) Palestinian states: Gaza / Hamastan; "West Bank" / P.A.; and Jordan (currently about 75% Palestinian but ruled by a Bedouin elite; sort of like Syria). hg

- ginzy

September 1, 2010 at 6:38am

ginzy “Note that Abu Mazen (a.k.a. Mahmoud Abbas) always (or at least since advent of the Olso era) condemns terrorist attacks by saying that they are against Palestinian interests. To the best of my recollection he has never said that they are immoral because they are attacking innocent civilians. For a very simple reason. In the eyes of the "moderate" PLO, Fatah, let alone Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, etc., etc. there is no such thing as an Israeli who is an innocent civilian. In their mind, at best, they are either soldiers or potential soldiers and in all events dhimmi who have to be re-relegated to their proper place in society, if not six feet under.” Sorry to read about the loss to your community, ginzy. It’s often the truly innocent children, pregnant women who are the targets of these attacks. I did notice this and I agree completely that Abbas/Mazen is not the peace loving guy he is portrayed to be. This is why Rabbi Ovadia’s comments were so infuriating. It made Abbas/Mazen out to be a victim.

- jdyer

September 1, 2010 at 9:10am

jdyer -- I deliberately pulled out of the Rav Ovadiah debate because it wasn't a debate. What bugs me about it is that weekly, if not daily the P.A. says or does things that are orders of magnitude more galling and they get the Politically Correcticist pass. By way of example: The following summary / bulletin from Palestinian Media Watch - The mother of four terrorists (maybe it is genetic?) serving a total of 18 life sentences (for separate terrorist attacks) is honored by the Palestinian Authority. Read the rest yourself here. And this is far from unique. Go through the rest of the PMW web site. And when you are through puking there, head on over to MEMRI's web site. And does any of this make it in to the mainstream western media? Do the Obamnoids huff and puff and say that it's "not helpful"? Do they condemn it they way they condemned the approval of the fourth stage of a seven stage process to build some housing units in an established Jewish neighborhood of J'lem? (OK so the neighborhood is mostly Hareidi and therefore the political correcticist dogma permits, even requires, that they be dumped on). And then quintessentially useful idiot journalists like Peter Beinart or Ethan Bronner wonder why only 10% of Jewish Israelis trust Obama. hg

- ginzy

September 1, 2010 at 9:30am

"What bugs me about it is that weekly, if not daily the P.A. says or does things that are orders of magnitude more galling and they get the Politically Correcticist pass." Well ginzy, as ironyroad was telling us in another thread: "Stanly Fish had a very good column in the NYT today in which he pointed out that a despicable action by people who oppose you is always a sign of how despicable the group they belong to is, while a despicable action by someone on your side is always an individual action for which it is completely unjust to slur the group." It's the quality, not the quantity that matters. And even with quality, blame is to to be assigned with medieval accuracy in different measures. Those are Arabs, you see, only expected. But these, these are Jews, who have suffered from centuries of persecution, and should be ennobled by such a history, and restrain any thoughts of revenge and ill-wishes upon their mortal enemies and their relentless campaigns of slander and murder. ____________ Some time ago I wondered why Jews can't be more like the Irish. I had a specific allusion in mind: "Be assured that none of my crowd, being "noyce feckin payple," will send letters from their solicitors inviting you to appear before a human rights tribunal if you're found referring to us pikeys as "blackguards" or "slags" or any such thing. A simpler and more summary resolution would obtain. You would simply be introduced to the Dohertys and the Coyles." http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2008/02/kazhars-and-zionist-parasites-not.html

- noga1

September 1, 2010 at 10:03am

"(OK so the neighborhood is mostly Hareidi and therefore the political correcticist dogma permits, even requires, that they be dumped on)." Some time ago, haaretz ran an article about discrimination against groups in Israel. In the report, it seems that "Israeli employers prefer not to hire Arabs, Ethiopians and Haredis - even those holding at least an undergraduate degree, according to a study published on Monday. " The report then goes into some details: "More than 83 percent of employers are repelled by the idea of hiring an Arab without a university degree, found the study conducted by the Kiryat Ono Academy. Some 58 percent of managers prefer not to hire Haredic academics, and 53 percent of them would rather not hire Ethiopians, the report said. [...] Some 86 percent of the research participants said that they would rather not promote Haredic employees, 79 percent said that about Arabs, and 70 percent of them would rather not promote an Ethiopian worker. " So here we have a report about three distinctive groups within Israeli society subjected to some sort of discrimination: Arabs, Haredis, Ethiopian Jews. And it appears that Haredis encounter more prejudice than Arabs do, when it comes to promotion. But the article's title was: "Israeli employers prefer not to hire Arabs."

- noga1

September 1, 2010 at 10:19am

Ha'aretz uses the NY Times style rules for their English edition, especially the headlines. hg

- ginzy

September 1, 2010 at 10:36am

Sorry Ginzy:(

- Sophia

September 1, 2010 at 12:39pm

PS - I think it's just wrong to try and create judenrein states, period. Nobody has been clear about this issue.

- Sophia

September 1, 2010 at 12:40pm

ginzy: thank you for sharing. Sophia: "I think it's just wrong to try and create judenrein states, period. Nobody has been clear about this issue." Too right, but it is an important point for everyone to try to make. I made the NYT editorial comment cutoff yesterday. K2K comment #50 of 71 11:21 am: "...Palestinians are justifiably concerned that settlement projects nibble away at the land available for their future state...." Why is no one "justifiably concerned" that a future Palestinian state MUST be cleansed of Jews? Is there no option to include Jews living in, for example, Ariel, as residents of a future Palestinian state? Or are the textbooks and maps used in all Palestinian classrooms to be believed - that there is NO state called Israel, only a Palestine that must be 100% Muslim, with no indigenous Christians allowed either? How does Mahmoud Abbas, whose term as President of the PA expired in January, 2009, have the legitimacy to agree to anything?" I posted a similar comment to Tom Friedman's op-ed today, and assume it will pass the moderators if my timing makes the inevitable 'comments closed' cut-off. Protesting the received wisdom of Judenrein (and Christianrein) Palestinian state can (eventually?) change some people's view. I was very discouraged to read Hosni Mubarak's NYT op-ed today in that he still believes in "land-for-peace" and that Egypt can somehow reconcile Hamas with anyone. Lest anyone forget, Egypt has been 'discovering' Hamas weapons caches in the Sinai since the rocket attacks that managed to simultaneously hit Israel and Jordan. I believe everyone sitting down at the WH dinner table tonight knows full well that Hamas is the #1 barrier to any kind of peace, including the future stability of Egypt and Jordan, as well as the security of the Suez Canal. I posted this observation at the first R. Ovedia post yesterday: "The BBC just aired their coverage of the four+baby executions near Kiryat Arba, adjacent to Hebron. The BBC showed the car, with each bullethole highlighted with white tape. They ended the segment showing the cheering children in Gaza, and the celebration march ordered by Hamas, with the final image showing a young boy, holding what looks like an AK-47, sitting on his father's shoulders in the celebration." The BBC could have skewed their coverage to the Israeli settler's protest, but the BBC did not. The NYT re-wrote Kershner's 3:00 p.m. posting with one at 5:00 p.m. at the NYT to include much more about Hamas. Hamas undid all their devious PR since Cast Lead, with their brazen, execution-style murders yesterday. see you all tomorrow.

- K2K

September 1, 2010 at 1:12pm

for the video inclined who want more from Claire Berlinski after reading her article in Standpoint from the link provided by Ginzy at 6:35 am, here is her blog: http://murkyinturkey.wordpress.com/ "So what do the Turkish people think?" Posted on July 24, 2010 by claireberlinski We’re a little tired of hearing what the Turkish people think from politicians and pundits, especially pundits who clearly have never spoken to a Turk in their lives. We decided we’d ask the Turkish people directly. It’s strange how few journalists do that. Here’s a preview of some of the footage we shot. More to come."

- K2K

September 1, 2010 at 1:24pm

One more poignant story from yesterday's terrorist attack. I suspect many of you may have heard of the Israeli volunteer organization ZaKA, a group of mostly Hareidim and other religious Jews who arrive at the scene of any event where there may be casualties, primarily to gather the dead bodies and body parts so that they can be brought to an honorable burial, and administering first aid to the survivors if they arrive at the scene before the MDA ambulances. Zaka gained its fame and respect during the worst days of the Oslo Accords War where their speed and dedication both saved some of those who survived terrorist attacks, and brought some degree of comfort to the families of those who were killed by being able to bring their loved ones to a proper burial (without going into the details, very important in Judaism). When news of the attack first broke, as is their wont local Zaka volunteers rushed to the scene. Upon arriving and preparing to move the bodies and gather stray body parts, one of volunteers discovered that his pregnant wife Kochava Even-Haim was one of the victims. hg

- ginzy

September 1, 2010 at 1:25pm

http://pajamasmedia.com/phyllischesler/2010/09/01/seeing-red-jewish-blood-on-the-west-bank-its-portrayal-in-the-western-media/?singlepage=true Chesler's post is solely comparing how the NYT, WSJ, and NY Post covered the story of this barbaric crime. Further to Ginzy's comment above, only the NY Post (Murdoch's tabloid!) made the murdered targets HUMAN, and also noted their names, photos, and the terrible irony that "one of volunteers discovered that his pregnant wife Kochava Even-Haim was one of the victims."

- K2K

September 1, 2010 at 1:40pm

One can't help but notice how these murders dovetail with the NYT publication of this baloney advising us to engage with Hamas and implying that Israel is worse than Hamas, which upset me enormously: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opinion/29abunimah.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

- Sophia

September 1, 2010 at 2:24pm

NR114746 We may have to consider the three-state solution as the most practical option. Amen to that. I missed in the news if they killed the bastard that did this. I hope they did and it was a long painful slow death.

- blackton

September 1, 2010 at 2:42pm

Dehumanizing & demonizing Israelis, at least Jewish ones (except for those in the far left "peace" NGOs), especially those living over the green line is a NY Times specialty. Even the Marty Peretz hechshered Ethan Bronner. One other tragic note to the story of Kochava Even-Haim. The deeply-religious HarDaLi couple (Hareidim Dati'im Le'umiim - National-Religious Hareidim if you will) have but one child a 10 year old girl. 6-10 kids per family is quite the norm in this segment of Israeli society. Even-Haim had been trying to get pregnant for 8 years before the pregnancy finally "took". hg

- ginzy

September 1, 2010 at 2:43pm

Blackie -- see my comments above on the 3 state solution. It's actually 4 states. The terrorists have not been caught yet although the security forces seem strangely confident that they will be caught. BTW note the plural. Current IDF analysis based on eyewitnesses and preliminary ballistics evidence indicates at least 3 Kalashnikovs were used. hg

- ginzy

September 1, 2010 at 2:47pm

ginzy, yeah, I don't buy Jordon as the 4 state solution since Jordon is already a state and is not really a party to the discussions. As to the makeup of Jordon, well, Austrians speak German but they ain't German, and half of Belgium speaks French but they ain't French. And when they get them, I hope to God they shoot them dead. They are animals.

- blackton

September 1, 2010 at 3:04pm

"They are animals." Animals do not kill for revenge, or to make a point about peace talks taking place in Washington. It's only human beings who do these kinds of things.

- noga1

September 1, 2010 at 3:09pm

Ginzy's remark about how a "three-state solution" would, in fact, constitute a four-state solution, bears emphasis. The Palestine Partition was also conceived as a "two-state solution" in 1947. People who reject its validity today automatically leave Jordan off the map in revisiting borders. The modern kingdom of Jordan has enjoyed independence for just two years more than its neighbor to the west, yet I have never heard the international community question Jordan's right to exist, compare its laws restricting Jewish citizenship and land ownership to apartheid, demand the right of repatriation and return of property to its former Jewish inhabitants, or call for a boycott. The phrase "two-state solution" whittles down the Jewish claim to the land by taking Arab lands off the drawing board. If the Obama administration can somehow get Israel and the PA to agree to side-by-side states, don't be surprised if down the line we hear the phrase "two-state solution" applied exclusively to land within Israel's current borders.

- drheingold

September 1, 2010 at 3:33pm

Blackie, don't kid yourself... Jordan is very much a party to the discussions. They worry about a Palestinian state at least as much as Israel does. Shlomo Ben Ami the ex-Minister in Ehud Barak's Labor led gov't (he himself is from the left wing of the Labor Party) and was part of Barak's Camp David 2000 team. Ben Ami now says that the two-state solution is probably not attainable and even less likely to be sustainable. He now favors some sort of confederation between Jordan & a Judenrein +/- "West Bank". A friend of mine who is associated with a J'lem think tank has frequent off the record discussions with senior Jordanian gov't officials. My friend says that they are seriously worried that an independent Palestinian state would be a threat to them & therefore they may be willing to reconsider the confederation with Jordan arrangement. hg

- ginzy

September 1, 2010 at 4:47pm

He now favors some sort of confederation between Jordan & a Judenrein +/- "West Bank". I get your point, that in the end will be between the Jordanians and Palestinians. I am agnostic on that issue. One other thing, can you kind of lay off on the whole Judenrein thing, it kind of makes my skin crawl. I understand your point, but it pretty much poisons the well as it were. I do not imagine there would be many Jews that would want to live in a newly constituted Palestinian state, that would certainly not mean that these people are complicit in the Palestinian state not having any Jews, it would just mean that they have more than half a brain. Now as to the farthest reaching settlements, whether or not the Palestinians state that these people could continue living there in a future Palestinian state, it would be insane for them to do so.

- blackton

September 1, 2010 at 5:05pm

"He now favors some sort of confederation between Jordan & a Judenrein +/- "West Bank"." I am glad to read this. I said that this might be a plausible outcome years ago.

- jdyer

September 1, 2010 at 5:39pm

In the meantime here is a story about Jerusalem from the JTA: Let’s see how Abbas reacts to the following offer? “Barak: Israel willing to divide Jerusalem” September 1, 2010 http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/09/01/2740749/israel-willing-to-divde-jerusalem-barak-says

- jdyer

September 1, 2010 at 5:41pm

Blackie -- three points: a) There are probably more Israelis than you realize who would opt to remain in their homes under Pal rule, depending on various dependings. I am NOT one of them. There were a few Gush Katif families who were willing to remain behind under Pal rule (this was before the Hamas takeover of Gaza) b) "Judenrein" because under Jordanian and Palestinian law, selling land to a Jew is a capital crime. And the sentence has been carried out in a few cases after a quick trial (of sorts). That is a serious disincentive. c) It's telling that people think it perfectly normal for Israel to have 20% Arab citizens but insist on all the Jews being out of a Palestinian State & sanguinely accept the fact that Jordan bans lands sales to Jews. But I guess this yet another manifestation of what Jeff Goldberg calls the "Triple Standard" -- special rules for Israel. hg

- ginzy

September 1, 2010 at 5:52pm

ginzy, a little bit of a difference, one, the Arabs in Israel were there from the get go. You can't say that about settlements (they can't simply up and declare themselves citizens of that state, and every state has the right to determine how its citizenship is determined). I am dead set against any BS right of return. They left, tough shit. I am Irish and German, I have no right to return to either Country, even though my own grandfather is from Germany. I also have zero problem with Israel being a country for the Jewish people. Since Israel grew from its original size by acquiring Arab territory (rightly and in self defense) it could not expel the people there (those that voluntarily left, tough) so it did the best thing, it gave them citizenship. And the corollary, Israel claims its greatness for not doing what the Arabs would have done, which is drive out or kill the people. If Israel were to annex the West Bank and Gaza I wouldn't even care, but it had better give the people there citizenship, since it won't then it is best they leave. If Palestinians state that they want to acquire land in Israel proper, then they are delusional. So I don't think it is a triple standard, it is Israel living up to its standard as a Civilized nation. I could accept a Palestinian state, but I doubt I could ever love it. If they don't want to sell land to Israelis, it is their loss. If they want it to be only Palestinians, again, it is their choice and their loss. Israel, of course, can use that fact during the negotiation process. You won't treat us as equals, then tough, we will take this piece of land and there ain't jack shit you can do about it. By the way, I can't buy land where I live in Mexico (I live to close to the ocean). You have to be Mexican. I really don't have a problem with this. It is their country and their loss.

- blackton

September 1, 2010 at 6:43pm

"ginzy, a little bit of a difference, one, the Arabs in Israel were there from the get go. " What about the Jews who lived in Judea and Samaria from the get go? In Arab lands? Somehow history works so that it is always the Jews who will be the big losers. And it becomes a sort of inevitable truth, the way things should be. How so?

- noga1

September 1, 2010 at 6:58pm

Noga, that is my point. Israel is the Civilized country. Are you really going to say to the Palestinians if you kick these Jews out we will kick out a corresponding amount of Palestinians? It is just land. Do you really want to stoop down to their level? As I said, use it as a bargaining chip for easily defended land along the border and then move the settlements there. And I don't see the Jews being big losers. We are talking about pretty negligible amounts of land. Just because my family was driven out of Ireland, I don't feel any anger or bitterness, that somehow my heritage was stolen. The most important thing is Israeli security, not holding onto some barren hilltop deep in the territory, this devotion to little plots of land will make peace forever impossible. And Israel has been right, it didn't reclaim the Temple Mount, the most holy and sacred place in Israel, if they could let the Muslims keep the Mosque there then they can do anything.

- blackton

September 1, 2010 at 7:18pm

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that there are Palestinian groups -- not just Hamas but non-compromising elements within Fatah -- that will do whatever it takes to bring the currently beginning talks to a final and frustrating standstill. Murdering people in cold blood is a good move in that calculus. The question that everyone (in particular Abbas and the PA but in fact it's Palestinians in general) faces who doesn't want another cycle of violence to be the reigning dynamic is how to deal with it. The answer remains open. But clearly this attack is meant to encourage both those Palestinian constituencies who think Abbas is weak and a traitor and those Israeli constituencies who are opposed to talks anyway, as together they can kill this thing stone dead.

- ironyroad

September 1, 2010 at 8:20pm

blackton: it is not just "easily defended land along the border" at issue - you have to study a topographical map to understand what 'defensible' actually means to Israelis. as Ginzy wrote: "There are probably more Israelis than you realize who would opt to remain in their homes under Pal rule, depending on various dependings." I would add probably quite a few Arab Christians would like to live in their ancestral homes, e.g., Bethlehem, in peace. I wonder if anyone ever mentions THEM in all these peace talks. Of course, we could rely on the learned opinion of Imam Faisal Rauf on what the Prophet Mohammed has to say about the future one-two-three-four-back-to-one state solution: from September 1, 2010 Wall Street Journal "Letters From the Imam: Feisel Abdul Rauf on Israel and Iran" "...We've now come across two letters to the New York Times that reveal more about the imam's worldview. In a letter published on November 27, 1977, Mr. Rauf commented on Egyptian President Anwar Sadat's historic trip to Israel and encouraged his fellow Muslims to "give peace a chance." That John Lennon lyric sounds good. But he added: "For my fellow Arabs I have the following special message: Learn from the example of the Prophet Mohammed, your greatest historical personality. After a state of war with the Meccan unbelievers that lasted for many years, he acceded, in the Treaty of Hudaybiyah, to demands that his closest companions considered utterly humiliating. Yet peace turned out to be a most effective weapon against the unbelievers." He's referring to a treaty in the year 628 that established a 10-year truce between the Prophet Muhammad and Meccan leaders and was viewed by Muslims at the time as a defeat. But Muhammad used that period to consolidate his ranks and re-arm, eventually leading to his conquest of Mecca. Imam Rauf seems to be saying that Muslims should understand Sadat's olive branch in the same way, as a short-term respite leading to ultimate conquest. To drive that point home, he added in the same letter that "In a true peace it is impossible that a purely Jewish state of Palestine can endure. . . . In a true peace, Israel will, in our lifetimes, become one more Arab country, with a Jewish minority." ... Imam Rauf has said more moderate things, notably at a memorial service for our former colleague Daniel Pearl. But his calls for interfaith understanding are hard to square with his support for a strategy of "peace" in the service of Israel's long-term destruction. We asked Imam Rauf if his views had changed since the 1970s. His complete response: "It is amusing that journalists are combing through letters-to-the-editor that I wrote more than 30 years ago, when I was a young man, for clues to my evolution. As I re-read those letters now, I see that they express the same concerns—a desire for peaceful solutions in Israel, and for a humane understanding of Iran—that I have maintained, and worked hard on, in the years since those letters were published." "

- K2K

September 1, 2010 at 8:39pm

"But clearly this attack is meant to encourage both those Palestinian constituencies who think Abbas is weak and a traitor and those Israeli constituencies who are opposed to talks anyway, as together they can kill this thing stone dead." Again the irresistible instinct to create obscene equivalences. The murdering of Israelis is good, for the murderers and those who react to it. Hence, Israelis welcome these sorts of murders because it serves their agenda. Hence, Israelis are no better than the murderers. The fetishization of balance. Impossible to condemn this act and commiserate with the fallen Israelis without inserting a steely ironical aspersion. http://simplyjews.blogspot.com/2010/09/while-bodies-are-still-warm.html

- noga1

September 1, 2010 at 8:59pm

http://simplyjews.blogspot.com/2010/09/while-bodies-are-still-warm.html

- noga1

September 1, 2010 at 9:01pm

What equivalences am I making, Noga, that you dislike and/or reject?

- ironyroad

September 1, 2010 at 9:35pm

I am late about this, but I have a query to Blackton regarding his post on Dore Gold's article about Israel not a colonial state: I was interested in the information you gave on Arab immigration to Palestine under the British mandate. Could you recommend some reading? thanks. Big fan of your comments, by the way

- Idefix

September 1, 2010 at 9:37pm

irony, you stated the deliberate murder of four Israelis, including a pregnant woman, was an "attack is meant to encourage both those Palestinian constituencies who think Abbas is weak and a traitor and those Israeli constituencies who are opposed to talks anyway, as together they can kill this thing stone dead." Why would you think the deliberate murder of four Israelis, including a pregnant woman, would "encourage ... those Israeli constituencies who are opposed to talks anyway"??? Why do you think it takes BOTH intransigent Palestinian constituencies (factions) AND "Israeli constituencies who are opposed to talks anyway". Not everything requires both sides to"kill this thing stone dead", wording which is an unsavory way to state "end direct talks". Hamas has been very vocal about their opposition to direct talks. Hamas ordered two terror attacks so far. Hamas ordered a celebration march in Gaza over the deliberate murder of four Israelis, including a pregnant woman EXECUTION STYLE. Their dying bodies were dragged from the car and shot AGAIN to make sure they died. Even gang members in LA do not finish off a drive-by with THAT utter contempt for human life.

- K2K

September 1, 2010 at 9:47pm

ok, I am going to finish watching the film "Blood Diamond" to get my mind off this. As I recall, the genocidal maniacs of the RUF get blown away. Someday, so will Hamas. Ka-boom goes Gaza.

- K2K

September 1, 2010 at 9:51pm

'Why would you think the deliberate murder of four Israelis, including a pregnant woman, would "encourage ... those Israeli constituencies who are opposed to talks anyway"?' Because they could then say with some justification, look, the minute we agree to talks, our people start being murdered in cold blood. How can you continue talks in such an environment? It seems to me that any serious attempts at negotiation and resolution would have to take into account that Palestinian groups will try to sabotage them with violence. Any negotiation regime that doesn't take that into account is imo not serious, and I don't believe Israel, the U.S., and the PA haven't talked about this. Again, I go back to one of my suggested discussion guidelines for the board of a few weeks ago: to draw parallels is not to assert equivalence. I'm getting really tired of this habit of maligning people who draw a parallel as evil demagogues who are setting up equivalences. To say that Evangelical fundamentalists, for example, share some characteristics with radical Islamists, is not to suggest they are the same or that they have done the same things. But being disallowed from pointing out such parallels is just wrong. It's censorship pretending it's not.

- ironyroad

September 1, 2010 at 11:16pm

Idefix “I am late about this, but I have a query to Blackton regarding his post on Dore Gold's article about Israel not a colonial state: I was interested in the information you gave on Arab immigration to Palestine under the British mandate. Could you recommend some reading? thanks. Big fan of your comments, by the way.” By the way, this guy reminds me of a character named Mitch, a Canadian of course, who on the Dore Gold post came up with some half baked theory about Israeli society following the patterns of colonial societies. (It is an idée fixe alright.) The pattern of Arab immigration to mandate Palestine is another huge wrinkle in his theoretic imaginings.

- jdyer

September 1, 2010 at 11:55pm

malahat, if you could suggest some comparative formulations or locutions that wouldn't communicate unacceptable equivalences, I'd use them.

- ironyroad

September 2, 2010 at 1:04am

K2K, One Yasser Arafat famously compared the Oslo Accords to the Treaty of Hudaybiyah during a speech (in Arabic) in a Johannesburg mosque. This was early on in the Oslo process (I think around 1994) when the process could have been stopped with little damage. Arafat didn't know that he was recorded. Not surprisingly it caused a big stir in Israel at the time. The Oslo Accordians, one Shimon Peres in particular, refused to attach much importance to the speech insisting that Arafat was only pandering to his audience and what REALLY counted was what Arafat said in private in English to Peres. When the Oslo process collapsed in September 2000, none of the sycophantic press here in Israel thought to question Peres about the quality of his judgment, much as they did (justifiably) question the judgement of the the Olmert, Amir Peretz & Dan Halutz in the following the release of the Winogrand report on the conduct of the 2nd Lebanese War. Food for thought. hg

- ginzy

September 2, 2010 at 2:51am

BTW, there was another drive-by shooting last night, this time in the Binyamin region (northeast of Jerusalem). The driver and his wife were "only" moderately wounded. As soon as they were hit they stopped the car got out and rolled down hill into the nearby wadi so the terrorists couldn't find them easily to administer the coup de grace like was done to the previous victims near Hebron. That move probably saved their lives. hg

- ginzy

September 2, 2010 at 5:57am

Irony, The reason that the the terrorists shot the Jews was first and foremost to kill Jews. That is the only justification that Hamas, IJ & the others have ever needed and when given the opportunity, they never hesitated to follow through on their motivation. I don't know if this was reported in the USA (it's not very P.C.) but public celebrations erupted in Gaza when news of the shootings got out. I guess when you kill a pregnant woman its a cause for celebration because its a twofer. The area near Hebron where the shooting occurred recently was cleared of all checkpoints and roadblocks as part of a general policy trend to allow the local Pals freer movement (I bet you didn't read that in the NY Times; Gd forbid that they should publish facts that justify Israel's security policies). So a major, if not the major proximate cause of the shooting was the same as Sir Edmund Hillary's stated reason for climbing Mt. Everest -- it was there. hg

- ginzy

September 2, 2010 at 6:07am

I think ironroad you were really tired when you wrote your comments yesterday. It is not a good sign of clear headedness that your first response was: "What equivalences am I making, Noga, that you dislike and/or reject?" presumably refusing to accept that an equivalence had been suggested, and then later complaining that people notice when an equivalence is made: "to draw parallels is not to assert equivalence. I'm getting really tired of this habit of maligning people who draw a parallel as evil demagogues who are setting up equivalences. " People who draw parallels between murderers and those who are affected by them are not always "evil demagogues" though often they are. I don't think you are either of the two. What discourages me is how rapidly this kind of thought came to you, and how quickly you resort to malign the people who notice an unholy equivalence as trying to stifle your freedom of expression. "It's censorship"? Really? Do you mean I can actually stop you from making these misguided comparisons? How?

- noga1

September 2, 2010 at 7:41am

ginzy: "I don't know if this was reported in the USA (it's not very P.C.) but public celebrations erupted in Gaza when news of the shootings got out." I noted the BBC US news report on Aug 31 ended with video coverage of the Gaza celebration. PBS NewsHour showed even more of that event last night, with extended video of the small boy waving his AK-47 as he sat on his father's shoulders. I recall the NYT DID specifically note the checkpoints had been lifted two years ago. Today's NYT printed two letters, one from a parent of one of Kochava Even-Haim's special needs students. NONE of this excuses or explains todays NYT "Room for Debate" titled "Israel's Settler Problem". (I passed on reading any of the six essays. Hmm, different title in the URL than what the NYT posts on the home page...) http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2010/09/01/negotiating-with-the-israeli-settlers?hp My goodness, does the NYT think Israel's Settlers are a problem like NYC Bedbugs are a problem? Both need to be eradicated? From Tom Friedman's column yesterday: "...Even if Israel agrees to swap land with the Palestinians so that 80 percent of the Jewish settlers in the West Bank can stay put, it will mean that 60,000 will still have to be removed. ..." My comment in response to that made the cut at #108 "Why MUST a future Palestinian state in the West Bank be cleansed of Jews? Is there no option to include Jews living in, for example, Ariel, as residents of a future Palestinian state?..."

- K2K

September 2, 2010 at 11:13am

A military planning committee some time after D-Day: Maj. Ironyroad: My assessment, based on this information, is that units of the Waffen-SS attacked this village, taking advantage of the confusion, killing a bunch of civilians, and hoping to draw our 3rd battalion in that direction. We could take advantage of this maneuver, however, and -- Maj. Noga: What do you mean, "take advantage"? Maj. IR: Well, we could use the fact that they attacked this village, and hence revealed something of their plans -- Maj. N: You're making an equivalence between the Waffen-SS and us! Maj. IR: Huh? No I am not. I am suggesting that we take advantage -- Col. Malahat: You're saying we're the same as them! Maj. IR: Sir, I am simply saying that we could take advantage -- Col. M: We both "take advantage" -- so we're both the same! Maj. Noga (pointing her finger as if at someone with the plague): Equivalence! Equivalence! Equivalence! Maj. IR: I'm not frigging saying we're the same! Two entities can do a similar thing because of the context they are both in without them being "the same" -- are you both stupid? Col. M: I'll pretend I didn't hear that, Major! Maj. IR: (breathing heavily) Should I start again, sir, and say it . . . differently? Col. M: That would be a good idea. Maj. N: He'll find some way of slipping in -- Col. M: That's enough Major Noga! Maj. N goes silent, shooting venom-filled glances at Maj. IR Maj. IR: OK. My assessment is, the Waffen-SS, an evil organization not in any way like our forces and between whom no equivalences can or should be drawn, attacked the village last night. Our forces -- and I emphasize that the use of the same verb does not imply any equivalence whatsoever between the sides, ours being clearly the good guys -- can "attack" the enemy . . .

- ironyroad

September 2, 2010 at 11:16am

"I hear Paris is lovely this time of year." WTF? Major Ironyroad is the one made an unholy equivalence! Though alerted to the wrongness of his ways, he continues unabashed, unrepentant and fresh as a daisy, poking fun at, no, taunting(!) Major Noga, implying she has nothing over a medusa, a veritable gargoyle no less, and HE gets to go to Paris!? Why so, Colonel? Is it because Major N. is a woman, and cannot possibly be trusted in Paris?

- noga1

September 2, 2010 at 1:45pm

"And the Waffen-SS and the US Army do not share common motivations or objectives." Right -- and my little sketch was to point out that one didn't normally have to invoke that again and again before one could proceed to the military business of the day. They did, however, share some characteristics belonging to military forces, and that's the relevant point. Ok. Paris.

- ironyroad

September 2, 2010 at 1:53pm

Incidentally, I'm glad to hear we've finally liberated Paris. And those French dudes aren't getting it back!

- ironyroad

September 2, 2010 at 2:49pm

I have to wonder who's the "we" in that statement, Ironiestraße. I suspect you are overtired today too. The sooner we pack you off to Paris the better. Or perhaps the south of France might be a be more suitable place for a harassed professor much put upon by nudniks of all sorts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-B6FsAAvmM

- noga1

September 2, 2010 at 5:07pm

screw Paris. I want some R&R in Kyoto - no Muslims; unlimited sushi... Is there a death fatwa out against Carla Bruni-Sarkozy for trying to stop Iran from stoning adulteresses to death? Or is it just a 'you French whore' fatwa? I had to watch "Blood Diamond" twice to stop being so angry about Hamas' gangland-style execution of these five Israelis. Danny Archer to Maddy Bowen, on Africa: "Sometimes I wonder if God will ever forgive us for what we've done to each other...Then I look around and I realize... God left this place a long time ago."

- K2K

September 2, 2010 at 11:28pm

"Victims on the road to ‘peace’" Jeff Jaccoby Globe Columnist /September 5, 2010 "TALIA AND Yitzhak Ames met as students at Moscow University. They got married in 1985, and had two children by the time they emigrated to Israel in 1991. Four more children followed in the next 19 years, and Talia was nine months’ pregnant with their seventh when she and Yitzhak were murdered by Palestinian terrorists last week. The killers ambushed them as they were driving home Tuesday night, heading south on Highway 60 toward Beit Haggai in the Hebron Hills. With Talia and Yitzhak in the car when the killers opened fire were two other residents of Beit Haggai: Avishai Schindler, a newly married yeshiva student, and Kochava Even-Haim, a nursery school teacher and the mother of an 8-year-old daughter. All of the victims were shot repeatedly at close range, and the car was riddled with dozens of bullets. Hamas, a terrorist organization whose charter extols the murder of Jews, promptly claimed responsibility for the massacre, describing it as “part of the repelling operations against the occupation assaults on Gaza Strip and West Bank.’’ In Hamas-controlled Gaza, the bloodshed was celebrated; the news was broadcast from loudspeakers and there was a “victory’’ rally in the Jebaliya refugee camp. The Palestinian Authority, headed by Fatah’s Mahmoud Abbas, issued a tepid statement condemning the Hamas “operation’’ — not because the deliberate slaughter of innocent civilians is a brutal atrocity, but on the dispassionate tactical grounds that it “contradicts Palestinian interests’’ by making it more difficult for “the Palestinian leadership to garner international support.’’ ..." http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/09/05/victims_on_the_road_to_peace/ © Copyright 2010 Globe Newspaper Company.

- K2K

September 5, 2010 at 11:42am