POLITICS NOVEMBER 7, 2008
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st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } In a major setback for gay marriage advocates, California voters passed Proposition 8 on Tuesday. Over the next couple of days, TNR's managing editor Richard Just and TNR's legal affairs editor Jeffrey Rosen will be debating the appropriate lessons to draw from the defeat. (Read Rosen’s opening argument here.)
Dear Jeff,
You and I both believe in gay marriage; our disagreement is about means, not ends. Moreover, while I am devastated about what happened in California on Tuesday, I agree with you that, in the wake of a loss of this magnitude, any movement needs to at least be willing to ask whether its approach has been the right one. Legitimate anger at the ugliness of what has just taken place in California--and I do think ugliness is the right word to describe what 52 percent of California voters did on Tuesday, as well as the right word to describe the cynical campaign of disinformation and raw bigotry that backers of Proposition 8 conducted over the past few months--is no excuse to avoid the fundamental questions we are asking here: Has the gay rights movement screwed up by working through the courts? And have the courts screwed up by reading the right to gay marriage into various state constitutions?
But, while I agree with you that these questions are important to ask, I think the answers are a bit less straightforward than you do.
As I wrote when we had our first exchange on this subject back in May, I think it makes sense to begin by disaggregating the strategic question (has the gay rights movement screwed up?) from the normative one (was there, prior to this Tuesday, a legal right to gay marriage in the California constitution?). I’ll take the normative one first. At some level, this question is moot, because what’s done is done in California; after Tuesday, the state’s constitution clearly no longer contains a right to gay marriage. But it is worth considering the question of whether Tuesday’s results suggest that the California marriage case was wrongly decided in the first place. After all, there will be other similar court cases in other states in the months to come, and so the question of whether there is a legitimate basis for reading gay-marriage rights into state constitutions remains quite relevant--even if it is no longer relevant in California.
I know you believe that, if California voters had rejected Proposition 8, then it would have vindicated the court’s ruling. But can it really be a true that a constitution contains a right if 52 percent of voters approve of that right, but does not contain the right if only 48 percent of voters approve? Is constitutional analysis really that flimsy? To put it another way: You mention that Brown v. Board of Education was backed by 54 percent of the American public at the time it was decided. But would Brown have been wrongly decided if only 49 percent of Americans had favored integration? Moreover, for all practical purposes, Brown applied to one particular region of the country. And, in that region of the country, there is simply no way that a majority of citizens in 1954 favored integration. (Indeed, if they had, then Brown would not have been necessary in the first place.)
It seems to me that there has to be a sturdier basis for constitutional analysis than the results of a 52-48 vote. Neither of us is an originalist; we both accept that the meaning of words in constitutions (both state and federal) can be reinterpreted as notions of human decency, progress, and liberty evolve over time. Of course, determining what vague words written long ago mean in the present moral context has to be done with reference to some sort of public consensus. But I think the metric that you’re using for making this determination--four percentage points in a heated election, in which public opinion swung several times from one side to the other--is too narrow. There are other data points that strongly suggest a contemporary reading of the California constitution’s equal protection clause ought to bar discrimination against gays and lesbians. Chief among these is science. Our understanding of what causes people to be gay has radically changed in the past generation. Fifty years ago, people would have scoffed at the notion that sexual orientation was an immutable category similar to race or gender. Today, that idea is widely accepted, at least by psychologists and others who study the subject. There are other data points, too. The overwhelming majority of young Californians support gay marriage, which suggests that, at some point in the next generation, there will be a widespread moral consensus on the issue. In other words, it’s clear where history is headed on the subject, even if only 48 percent are there now.
I don’t dispute that Tuesday’s results retroactively complicate the legal basis for what the court did in May. Immediate, short-term public opinion is clearly one of the data points that ought to go into determining whether there is a moral consensus for reading a new meaning into a constitution. But is it really the only data point? Or even the most important one? After all, we prefer to live in a constitutional democracy rather than a pure democracy because we expect our constitutions (and the people charged with interpreting them) to provide some check on the majoritarian political process. If immediate, short-term public opinion were the only factor in deciding whether to read new understandings into constitutions, then constitutions wouldn’t be necessary in the first place; the more democratic branches of government could just act based on popular opinion, and that would be the end of it. But then minority rights would often be left unprotected. Courts, it seems to me, are, and ought to be, more than just vehicles for predicting and ratifying popular opinion.
As for the strategic question: Have we screwed up the fight for marriage equality by resorting to the courts? First, I am not convinced that the backlash against gay marriage is fueled primarily by a dislike for judicial tyranny. Rather, I think it’s fueled primarily by a dislike for … gay marriage. Which is to say that, however gay marriage comes about, there is going to be a backlash. The Defense of Marriage Act, after all, passed Congress in 1996, seven years before the first state court imposed gay marriage. Let’s say Governor Schwarzenegger had signed gay marriage into law after it had passed the legislature. Would anti-gay marriage forces have been any less eager to pass Proposition 8? Would the religious right have been any less generous with its funding of anti-gay television ads? And as for the voters themselves: Did Californians really vote primarily on process rather than substance this week? Were they really voting on judicial tyranny rather than the actual question at hand?
Social change provokes backlash no matter how it comes about--whether it happens through the courts or through the legislatures; whether 48 percent of the population approves (as in the case of California and gay marriage) or 54 percent (as with Brown). In fact, I think it’s odd to cite Brown as a model here, since Brown heralded not just the most important social change in our country’s history, but also sparked arguably the most sustained backlash, one that lasted for decades and in many ways still informs our politics today (just look at this week’s electoral map--which still, a generation after Nixon’s southern strategy, features a blue north and a mostly red south). Sometimes, the only way not to provoke a backlash is not to have change at all.
Second, I think it’s important to point out that the gay rights movement has not worked exclusively through the courts. The reason it sometimes appears that the gay marriage movement has focused on the courts is because those are the only places it has actually had success. Thanks to courts, we have marriage equality today in two states (Massachusetts and Connecticut); without courts, we would have marriage equality in no states. Would the gay rights movement really be better off with no court-imposed gay marriage--and therefore no gay marriage at all?
You blame the 2003 Massachusetts decision for leading to gay-marriage bans in 30 states. I would put the numbers a bit differently. In states where courts have imposed gay marriage, we are now two for three in terms of making the ruling stick. (We lost in California. But in Massachusetts, where polls swung in favor of gay marriage within a year of the first same-sex marriage, we have effectively won. And likewise in Connecticut, where voters this week rejected calls by conservatives to hold a constitutional convention for the purpose of overturning the state supreme court’s ruling on marriage equality.) By contrast, in states where courts have not imposed gay marriage, we are zero for 47. And, in many of these states (New York, for instance), this has not been for a lack of effort on the part of gay activists and the politicians allied with them.
Even after Tuesday’s result, I am still convinced that the single most important element in changing minds on gay marriage is to show it happening in practice--to show the joy and fulfillment and stability it brings to people and to communities; and to show that it has no effect whatsoever on the integrity of straight marriages. The fight to win gay-marriage rights in as many places as possible should therefore be taking place on all fronts--in legislatures, in governor’s offices, and in courts. And to surrender now on one front--which just so happens to be the only front where we have had any success--strikes me as unwise. California was a debacle; Massachusetts and Connecticut were not. I think we need more data points before we conclude that gay marriage won through the courts is, on balance, a liability rather than a way of gradually beginning to change people’s minds.
Best,
Richard
Richard Just is managing editor of The New Republic.
21 comments
Richard Just pegged it right here: "Of course, determining what vague words written long ago mean in the present moral context has to be done with reference to some sort of public consensus." THAT is why the 54% in Brown, or the 52% here, matters. Cases don't come before a Supreme Court asking precisely "Shall Congress make a law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof?" They often only tangentially reference our (or a state's) constitutional text, leaving them wide open to not only to differences of interpretation, but differences over whether a consitutional argument can even be applied. That is certainly the case here, which is why it would have been better to wait for a legislative solution, to avoid this exact sort of backlash that comes when people think judges have overreached.
- dhauck
November 8, 2008 at 10:02am
The exit polls patiently state one message" patience. Younger voters overwhelmingly supported marriage equality. Eight years ago, Prop 22, the original ban, passed with 61% of the vote and Prop 8 just passed with only 52% of the vote. It is a setback, not the end-all, and proponents of equal rights are certain to win in five or ten years as the social landscape continues to shift.
- Travis
November 8, 2008 at 11:12am
"Fifty years ago, people would have scoffed at the notion that sexual orientation was an immutable category similar to race or gender. Today, that idea is widely accepted, at least by psychologists and others who study the subject. There are other data points, too. The overwhelming majority of young Californians support gay marriage, which suggests that, at some point in the next generation, there will be a widespread moral consensus on the issue." Note the two assumptions in this passage: 1 - That what is "immutable"--that is, on a par with race and gender--can be determined by *psychologists,* and 2 - That the views of "young Californians" are likely to remain unchanged over the course of the next several years. The flaws and dangers in such assumptions should be obvious.
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November 8, 2008 at 1:06pm
Thank you Mr. Just for your argument which I think is helpful. But I think that the entire argument over gay marriage is simply badly framed. I hesitate to even discuss the concept of "gay marriage," and this too is for a larger normative reasoning. Marriage, guarantees no great ideal of a happy family and more stable communities. First, I, as a gay man, certainly don't want to be the new Ward Cleaver married to John instead of June, settling into a happy heterosexual trope of the American Dream. Please! Second, the normative question is "are we not citizens of the state, and therefore are we not entitled to all equal treatment whether in the courts or under the law. This is not about the ecclesial concept and tradition of marriage. I might want a civil union or whatever the state's recognition of that legal entity replicating full citizen rights enjoyed by the married. What legal construct would be necessary to allow me to have full rights with my partner as if he were my "husband or wife" (what ridiculous and embarrassing language for any gay man to accept and use in the first place)? Is it that difficult to imagine all this without referring to the church and the religionists who are so upset with homos on honeymoons? If it is important for gay men or lesbians to be married, then let them find a church or synagogue or mosque that blesses them. But let me be sanctioned by the state in this republic. If the hatred or simply the moral trepidation over this issue is still at 52% in the public sphere, then we must work to change this by law as well as in the courts where laws are interpreted. As for being married, it certainly won't make me a better citizen or a more stable community member. Quite frankly, I enjoy my sexual freedom and I love my lovers. And if I decide to "settle down" with that "certain someone," then I shall do so with my man, and we shall live as citizens of the nation that I hope will one day be the nation Americans seem to believe they now live in. As for those wishing to be married, let them eat their wedding cake.
- G. D.Wymer
November 8, 2008 at 2:58pm
Bravo! Richard, Bravo! Sane, clear, a thorough rebuke to Rosen and to the entire school of thought that social change can or should only be the result of majoritarian processes. Would we have a President-Elect Obama today if civil rights had progressed only through legislative efforts? Not hardly.
- roidubouloi
November 8, 2008 at 3:27pm
a 52-48 margin is considered to be decisive in politics. Obama won by a smaller margin, and his victory is certainly considered to be unquestionable, I don't know why a larger margin for Prop 8 is any less decisive. The Prop 8 victory is all the more impressive when you consider that CA is a decisively liberal state. Gay marriage has no electoral success anywhere in the nation.
- Mark Syman
November 8, 2008 at 8:35pm
After having read both essays I have to say that I find Just's far more persuasive and reasonable. Fundamental rights either exist or they don't. They only find written expression in Constitutions and court decisions. As such, I am completely unmoved by the idea that if a slim majority of voters don't agree with something, a court should decline to hear a case or find for the majority view. That is the clear job of legislatures, not courts. To conflate the two would be a dangerous error.
- Will
November 8, 2008 at 9:27pm
When the older, biggotted crowd dies off, and is replaced by the younger, more tolerant and enlightened, gay marriage will cease to be a divisive issue. The true threat to heterosexual marriage is DIVORCE. No marriage has ever been affected by anyone else's marriage, straight or gay. But, DIVORCE can kill them both. Why don't you want to ban DIVORCE? There have been thousands of gay marriages in California and Massachusetts - and how is anyone's marriage affected. The notion that being gay is a choice is ridiculous. Think about whether you ever chose to be heterosexual. You just knew ... you didn't learn it, you knew it inside. That is the basis of anti-gay marriage. The fear that somehow every boy will think it's ok to be gay and the family will disintegrate. Another stupid notion from the ignorant. Read a gay book, learn something and be more tolerant. That is what our country is founded on, not bigotry, hatred, and oppresion.
- Tom
November 9, 2008 at 8:20am
When a mere 51% of the electorate can abrogate a fundamental right, you have a democracy - not a constitutional republic. I'd like to point out that the reason we have at the Federal level a constitutional republic and not a democracy is that the Founding Fathers were rightly concerned about the possible excesses of majority rule and built-in safeguards to protect minority rights and individual rights against the ill will of the majority. At the time of Brown et al vs. the Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas, an overwhelming of white voters in the South opposed integration. At the time of Loving vs. Virginia, an overwhelming majority of American voters opposed interracial marriage. Today, no one disputes that the Supreme Court rendered the right rulings in these two cases. I am for majority rule but I am not that stupid. Paradoxically, the concern to protect the rights of the minority actually protects the proper exercise of majority rule. Within representative governments, it is quite possible and doable for a minority to rule by setting itself up to be a majority of a majority within a majority. Sadly enough, there are plenty of otherwise extraordinarily well educated people in te world who equate democracy - that is, representative democracy - exclusively with majority rule not with the duality of majority rule and minority rights. Or the rights of the individual rights. If the 20th century has any object lessons, it is that it is all too easy to oppress entire societies if individual rights can be trampled with impunity.
- blacklight
November 9, 2008 at 9:09am
I still fail to see how the courts can justify imposing same-sex marriage. Under traditional marriage laws, any man can marry any woman (or vice versa) provided: A) Neither is already married B) They are both adults C) They are not close relatives D) They both consent Neither homosexual nor heterosexual men can marry men. That homosexual men desire to do so while heterosexual men do not does not change the fact that all men are subject to the same rules. How can this possibly be a violation of any equal protection clause? The only way there could be an equal protection issue is if the constitution (state or federal) protected group rights instead of individual rights. Is there any basis for this? Perhaps I am in the minority. While I think allowing same-sex marriage is bad policy, I could accept a law that the voters passed. However, the sort of judicial tyranny seen is Massachusetts and California I cannot abide.
- TWJ
November 9, 2008 at 11:02am
[Since the TNR site often doesn't seem to recognize paragraphing, I'll use this "//" to mark a paragraph.]// "Is a 52-48 vote..." Obama won 53-47. What percentage would be persuasive to you?// Nader got Bush elected in 2000. Similarly it seems clear that gay-marriage activism kept Bush in the White House for another four years, as a ballot measure in 2004 drew conservative voters to the polls in Ohio. In 2008 antipathy toward Bush probably caused more conservative voters to stay home, and drew out more liberal voters. In a less anti-Republican climate, the vote against gay marriage would have been even higher.// Jennie Jerome famously said I don't care what you do in the bedroom, as long as you don't do it in the street, and frighten the horses. That's a position very different from both the hard-right or the earnest left.// Most Americans have libertarian tendencies, and most Americans are thus tolerant of gays. Civil unions are acceptable to the majority of Americans. But gay marriage goes beyond tolerance and equality before the law to active validation. Tolerance and validation are two different things.// The US defense establishment probably favors acceptance of homosexuality. The main worry in the defense community is that a person who has had closeted homosexual relations, in a society that condemns homosexuality, can be blackmailed to betray secrets.// Most say that gays can't be reprogrammed. The Alan Turing case was a notable example. What that means regarding "swing voters" in the sexual realm, people who are less firmly gay, is another question.// From the military point of view, the alternative is a society where homosexuality is merely a valid alternative orientation, where it isn't stigmatized, and thus one where people who've had homosexual relations can't be blackmailed.// That's been achieved, in the 35 years since the APA changed the DSM. But does the military need it to go further? If it does, then gay-marriage advocates might enlist the military in its effort.// But from an individual and a societal perspective, there's much to be said against gay marriage.// No one has ever shown an organic (biological) basis for homosexuality, in at least three decades of trying, and it's unlikely anyone ever will. Sexuality is too complex a matter. And it's largely in the mind. Most believe, or wish to believe, that every person has the power to direct their own mind.// Personally, having had friendships (I won't say relations) with people of my own and the other biological gender, there's an intriguing, qualitative difference in developing closeness across the divide. Individuals miss out when they don't achieve this. It's more work than having friends of the same gender. And the reward is proportionate to the effort.// A society that is entirely indifferent won't urge individuals to try harder to bridge that divide. And those individuals will miss out.// Societally, gay couples naturally will procreate less. US-born people are already reproducing below replacement rate. Same in Italy and other places in the West. Gay marriage would exacerbate that. "Zero population growth" may be a goal for some, but it's controversial. And since gays (based on my informal acquaintance) seem to be drawn more from the more prosperous classes -- do we really want the more prosperous, more educated, and more liberal people in society reproducing less than the other segments?// Most Americans agree that a long-term domestic partner, whether gay or straight, should have the same privileges as a spouse, regarding inheritance, hospital visitation, insurance plans, pensions, etc. Civil unions have passed into law without much controversy anywhere. If there's been trouble, it's because insurance companies and pension funds like to nickel-and-dime everyone, for any reason they can find.// If ironing out civil unions seems to arduous, there's another, simple solution regarding insurance, pensions, etc. Gay partners can adopt each other.// It's a maneuver they tried in Rome. It would require no modification of the law.// Gay marriage isn't about legal rights. It's about symbolism. And Americans who oppose gay marriage are as concerned about that symbolism as are gays.
- DJStahl
November 9, 2008 at 2:03pm
I believe we live in a democracy and when people vote the winners are the ones who got the most votes. If a majority, not a plurality, but a majority of the people vote their votes should be respected and not twisted into a 52 - 48 vote is meaningless. If that is meaningless then so was the presidential election as well as all other ballot questions where 51%+ of the people voted. Try respecting majority rule. It's what makes our country a light unto nations.
- Mark Jeffery Koch
November 9, 2008 at 5:15pm
Richard Just writes, "Fifty years ago, people would have scoffed at the notion that sexual orientation was an immutable category similar to race or gender. Today, that idea is widely accepted, at least by psychologists and others who study the subject." // Seems Mr. Just is throwing up his hands at the effort of trying to master the subject himself, and instead is relying on the collective opinion of experts. Understandable, since there is such a cloud of material on the subject, such a torrent of papers, journals, and books. But it's always unwise. // Harry Truman once said he was looking for a one-handed economist. Psychology is even more murky. Both social sciences use the language of physical science. Both are heavily and decisively influenced by ideology. // One simple route out of this morass of information and disinformation is to look at the responsum issued by the Conservative movement of Judaism in 2006 favoring admission of openly gay students to its seminary. It's called the Dorff responsum. Appended to that responsum was a paper by a psychologist, Sharon Glasgold, Psy. D., which summarized all research on the subject to that point. It was written in support of the decision. // Glasgold found no evidence of any biological cause of homosexuality. Nor, presumably, is there any biological cause of heterosexuality. // What she did say is that many people defined as gay find the possibility of change, to heterosexuality, hopeless, that reports by therapists indicate that therapy is seldom of use in changing orientation. // But this is a particular sampling. It is those people, probably mostly men, who have decided they are inexorably gay, who despite this, have taken themselves to a professional, to a situation where they turn over responsibility for changing their orientation to another person. Frequently, according to the Glasgold article, they go to a professional at the beseeching of a family member. // In such a situation, it isn't surprising that change is rare. // But there is a much broader pool. // Plenty of people try homosexuality, and decide it isn't for them. Some are homosexual for years before changing their minds. And the reverse is true. Plenty of people are contented heterosexuals, to all appearances, till they become homosexual. Leonard Bernstein and Freddy Mercury are two well-known examples. // In current ideology, we are told that the latter group are not true homosexuals at all. We're told they are bisexuals. // But there is no way to show this belief isn't merely a tautology. It may well be a post-facto interpretation designed solely to maintain the belief that some people are fixed in their orientation. // Animals that exhibit homosexual behaviors -- bonobos, cattle, dogs -- all seem to be bisexual. A young male dog will hump anything. Social factors seem to influence their sexual behavior -- overcrowding, pecking order, bonobo politics. There isn't any evidence of biological (organic) orientation in animals, either.// What there is some slight evidence of, lately, is that experience affects the brain physically. // That is, if a person's first sexual experience is heterosexual, the brain may be "grooved" toward heterosexuality thereafter. And conversely, if a person's first sexual experience is homosexual. That initial experience will tend to lead to further similar experiences, and the groove is deepened, or joined with parallel tracks. // But the same studies also show that new grooves can be created, at any time of life. These may run athwart the earlier ones. // So if a young person is seduced in his or her first sexual experience, that may well steer them toward being "homosexual" or "heterosexual." But such seductions of course may be less the fundamental orientation of the seduced, than a case of exploration or yielding. In other words, it may well be that there is no such thing as a fundamental orientation for anyone, not merely those termed "bisexual." // Classical Greece considered that everyone was heterosexual, till they moved up to the more advanced and mature state of homosexuality. Freud taught the inverse. // The consensus of experts in any era may be of limited value. Because in such matters, science itself is of limited value. Simply defining sexuality goes past the boundary of science. // Challenging current beliefs about sexuality in the West may or may not affect what one thinks about gay marriage. But I'd expect an editor of TNR not to be so accepting of the current common wisdom.
- DJStahl
November 9, 2008 at 5:45pm
Obama also won 52% - 48% and the media calls it a landaslide. He supposedly has a "mandate" from the people. So the ban on gay marriage won in a landslide, right? Which is it?
- Jeff Westra
November 9, 2008 at 6:10pm
We shouldn't underestimate the effect of an enormous ad campaign on radio and TV -- the 'Yes on 8' barrage of lies was a scare campaign that totally misrepresented Prop 8 and no doubt influenced the outcome. The Mormon Church and the Knights of Columbus saturation-bombed the state in the four days before the election.
- Knight Supreme
November 10, 2008 at 2:58am
Also, remember that 2.7 million votes (about 20% of the total) remain uncounted as of Nov 10th, mostly from major cities. The real final tally may be much closer once LA County's 615,000 additional votes are counted. www.sos.ca.gov/elections/c-status08/total_unprocessed_ballots08.pdf
- Poochy
November 10, 2008 at 3:08am
Without even reading the article, just the subtitle, my question is, are you kidding? You lost. All of a sudden a majority vote is not good enough anymore. I guarantee that if your side had won 50.1 to 49.9 you wouldn't be asking the question. Hypocrites!!
- Howard
November 10, 2008 at 12:11pm
It's clearer to me that rights to free thought, belief and expression are fundamental. It's less clear that marriage, which requires a social context, is a right in the same sense. I'm not a lawyer, so I have no idea what the semantics may be, but marriage the social as opposed to legal institution is up to society as a whole, NOT COURTS ALONE, to define. Seems like Californian voters just clarified its definition, and they may redefine it a few years from now. Maybe there's already a more appropriate term, but marriage strikes me as a constructive right, like due process of law or bearing arms, which requires (like it or not) majority approval.
- fzz
November 10, 2008 at 1:40pm
Just another example -- liberals are never wrong. If the vote goes against something you favor, the voters are obviously wrong. Your moral superiority know no boundaries. So, keep moving those goal posts. Eventually you'll get everything you want, and yet I'm absolutely confident that you'll still manage to find hundreds of reasons to be miserable.
- Fareast
November 11, 2008 at 12:02am
re: "I am not convinced that the backlash against gay marriage is fueled primarily by a dislike for judicial tyranny. Rather, I think it's fueled primarily by a dislike for ... gay marriage." Actually, I think it's even more driven by a preference for strongly-defined sex roles within marriage, and a dislike for egalitarian and non-gendered ways of structuring a relationship within marriage. It isn't that the Mormons are concerned with a gay relationship being called a "marriage" as much as they are bothered by a concept of marriage which does not include "this is the man, and he's in charge; this is the woman, and she's not".
- Dirty Davey
November 11, 2008 at 2:18pm
TWJ wrote, "Under traditional marriage laws, any man can marry any woman (or vice versa) provided: A) Neither is already married B) They are both adults C) They are not close relatives D) They both consent Neither homosexual nor heterosexual men can marry men. That homosexual men desire to do so while heterosexual men do not does not change the fact that all men are subject to the same rules. How can this possibly be a violation of any equal protection clause?" The answer is given by analogy: Suppose the government made a law that anyone could marry (and inherit from)a redhead, but not a blond or a brunette. According to TWJ, this would be equal treatment.
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November 22, 2008 at 5:35pm