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Go Home Gun Control Can Survive the Supreme Court

PLANK DECEMBER 28, 2012

Gun Control Can Survive the Supreme Court

It’s a sign of the legalization of American politics that activists worry about being thwarted by the Supreme Court even before they’ve managed to pass anything: Although they haven’t yet squeezed any new regulations through Congress or the state legislatures, gun-control advocates already fear that the Supreme Court will invalidate whatever progress they achieve.

They should stop sweating. Despite its turn to the right on gun control, the Supreme Court should almost certainly uphold any of the new regulations that have a chance of being enacted, according to the logic of its decisions in District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. Chicago. Both liberal and conservative judges, from Justice John Paul Stevens on the left to Judges Richard Posner and J. Harvie Wilkinson on the right, denounced the decisions when they were handed down. But both decisions were relatively narrow, prohibiting states from imposing total bans on the firearms in the home. They shouldn’t be read to threaten the kinds of regulations that states and the federal government are currently debating--including an effective federal database for permit holders. The problem with the constitutional debate over guns, in other words, isn’t the Supreme Court’s Second Amendment decisions but an over-reading of them by a handful of lower court judges--mostly notably, Posner himself.

Heller and McDonald struck down the two most restrictive gun regulations in the country--Chicago and D.C.’s total bans on gun possession in the home. No other state or municipality had similarly sweeping bans on private gun possession, and in this sense, the Court was playing a familiar role of bringing state and local outliers in line with a national consensus. Since the decisions came down, there have been hundreds of civil and criminal challenges to gun control laws, and the vast majority of them have been unsuccessful. Unfortunately, a few lower courts have seized on language in Heller and McDonald to strike down state laws that forbid felons from possessing firearms, for example, or that require applicants for concealed carry permits to show a “good and substantial reason.”

The oddest of the lower court opinions came recently from Judge Posner in Chicago. On December 11, days before the Newton slaughter, Posner struck down Illinois’ ban on carrying a “ready to use” gun in public. Given his previous criticisms in this magazine of the Supreme Court’s Heller and McDonald decisions protecting the right to bear arms inside the home, Posner’s expansive reading of those decisions was both glib and perverse. Posner’s opinion said little about the text of the Second Amendment or what its authors may have intended about whether the right to keep and bear arms in should apply as expansively outside the home as inside it. He included a meandering section on the empirical debate about whether or not gun control laws are effective, only to conclude that “the empirical literature on the effects of allowing the carriage of guns in public fails to establish a pragmatic defense of the Illinois law.” His cavalier conclusion: “Anyway the Supreme Court made clear in Heller that it wasn’t going to make the right to bear arms depend on casualty counts.”

Although the Supreme Court focused on the right to keep arms in the home, Posner read this right, which he had previously denounced, broadly rather than narrowly. “To confine the right to be armed to the home is to divorce the Second Amendment from the right of self-defense described in Heller and McDonald,” he wrote. “It is not a property right--a right to kill a houseguest who, in a fit of aesthetic fury, tries to slash your copy of Norman Rockwell's painting, Santa with Elves." And based on this flat-footed punch line, Posner went on to extend the Supreme Court’s Second Amendment right to strike down Illinois’ broad ban on carrying ready-to-use guns in public. He said the Second Amendment applied just as expansively outside the home as inside it, without indicating what the limits of the right might be. “The interest in having sex inside one’s home is much greater than the interest in having sex on the sidewalk in front of one’s home,” Posner wrote. “But the interest in self-protection is as great outside as inside the home.” Posner’s ultimate conclusion may have been defensible, but he could have made clear that the text of the Second Amendment, and the Supreme Court decisions forbid only total bans on the right to keep arms in the home or to bear them outside – bans that no legislature except for Illinois (and the District of Columbia) have passed.

Contrast Posner’s opinion with those of other appellate courts to consider the question. Judge J. Harvie Wilkinson III, another conservative critic of the Supreme Court’s gun decisions, is, unlike Posner, a consistent advocate of judicial restraint – that is, of the idea that courts should generally defer to legislatures and decide cases narrowly rather than broadly. In refusing to decide whether the Supreme Court’s recognition of an individual right to bear arms should apply outside the home, Wilkinson presciently wrote the following in March 2011:

This is serious business. We do not wish to be even minutely responsible for some unspeakably tragic act of mayhem because in the peace of our judicial chambers we miscalculated as to Second Amendment rights. It is not far-fetched to think the Heller Court wished to leave open the possibility that such a danger would rise exponentially as one moved the right from the home to the public
square. If ever there was an occasion for restraint, this would seem to be it. There is much to be said for a course of simple caution.

In a similar spirit of caution and restraint, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, in August, upheld a New York law requiring people applying for a concealed carry permit to show “proper cause.” The Court stressed that, “unlike the situation in Heller where ‘[f]ew laws in the history of our Nation have come close’ to D.C.’s total ban on usable handguns in the home, New York’s restriction on firearm possession in public has a number of close and longstanding cousins.”

The Court stressed that even if the right to keep and bear arms applies outside the home (as the plain text of the amendment suggests that it may), there’s a long history and tradition of states regulating the right to carry concealed weapons. As Adam Winkler argues in his book Gunfight, laws restricting concealed carry permits to those who can show a special need to have a gun date back to the 1920s, when they were drafted by the NRA, which used to support reasonable gun regulations.

In other words, as the Second Circuit convincingly concluded, the text and history of the Second Amendment suggest there is a limited right not only to keep a gun in the home but to bear it in public: that’s why Illinois’s total ban on public gun possession couldn’t withstand constitutional scrutiny. But the Illinois ban is a national outlier. Lower courts have been systematically upholding less draconian regulations, and should uphold all of the regulations that are being debated in the wake of the Newton shooting, including laws limiting permits to carry concealed weapons to those who can show an individualized need for a firearm, and universal background checks to ensure that felons and the mentally ill can’t get access to guns (a restriction the Supreme Court signaled it would approve.) Winkler suggests that the hardest constitutional question would be an assault weapons ban, but that the Court would likely uphold such a ban as well: “Although assault weapons are commonplace in America,” he told me, “I think the Court is likely to say that they’re not commonly used for self-defense.”

And what about one of the most meaningful gun control measures: a federal registry of gun transactions of the kind that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms is prohibited from maintaining under current law? An effective database would be far preferable to the kind of transparency vigilantism that the Journal News in Westchester exhibited by posting an interactive map with the names and addresses of handgun permit holders in its readership area. (This privacy violation provoked a Connecticut lawyer to retaliate by posting the home address and phone number of the Journal’s publisher and staff reporters.) Because the right to keep and bear arms is indeed a constitutional right, it would be no more appropriate for the federal or state governments to post the names of permit holders than it was for Alabama to try to force the NAACP to reveal its membership list – a privacy violation that the Supreme Court has said the First Amendment forbids. But an effective federal database that makes it possible for law enforcement officers to access the names of permit holders would be the kind of reasonable regulation that the Second Amendment allows.

For all of the hyperbole about the Supreme Court’s Heller and McDonald opinions, it turns out that they may have played a constructive role in the framing the current gun control debate -- prohibiting complete bans on the right to keep and bear arms but allowing sensible regulations. It’s too bad that a few overzealous judges have extended the decisions further than the Second Amendment or the Supreme Court requires.

Jeffrey Rosen is the legal affairs editor of The New Republic.

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24 comments

It seems artificial to create a distinction between lawful weapon possession within the home and unlawful public possession of the same weapon. Folks who lawfully possess weapons in their home become criminals when they carry a prohibited weapon in public; provided the prohibited weapon is identified in some regulation. People may go out more often carrying unlawful weapons than refrigerators or microwave ovens; but the owner of a refrigerator still can lawfully carry it away from their home.

- Doug12

December 28, 2012 at 11:18am

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Doug I don't think your point is well taken and I think that your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise. Ownership doesn't necessarily vouch for public use. That our ownership of some things is relatively without constraint, such as in public use, doesn't entail parallel rights in all things. Assuming for the sake of argument that carrying increases undesired gun use, it's not artificial, in the sense you mean it, at all for the state to prohibit it.

- basman

December 28, 2012 at 12:36pm

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I'll just refine my note by emending what I said given Rosen's article, which I cop to not having read before I wrote what I just wrote: ...."for the state even heavily to regulate it" instead of my blanket "for the state to prohibit it."...

- basman

December 28, 2012 at 2:28pm

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Happy Holidays Mr. basman

- Doug12

December 28, 2012 at 4:13pm

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We already recognize that public posession of some items is qualitatively different from private possession in a home. My right to have an open bottle of gin in my home is nearly absolute, but that same open bottle on the street (or heaven forbid, in a vehicle) is subject to a number of restrictions.

- gwcross

December 28, 2012 at 4:32pm

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Mr. Rosen, why don't you walk the reader through the machinations on how these regulations might prevent the next Columbine? Hint: It will not. Why not walk the reader through how these will blunt the violence in Chicago's inner cities? Hint: it will not. And thus, what is the purpose of all these laws and databases you dream about? This is exactly what is broken about government today: Too much mental masturbation over things that accomplish nothing. Yours included. Think about what you wrote. Everything above will take years to play out. Countless hours of smart people's time to get this done. And then we have another massacre and then what? Why not focus your enthusiasm on things that will actually protect people? Black people in the inner cities will stop shooting each other when they have a meaningful job and a hopeful future. And crazy people will stop attacking our schools when they realize they can't get in, and they are left standing on the front steps shooting at a thick steel door as the cops pleading with them to drop their weapons. But the databases and new laws you propose? Neither will change the tragedies we suffer today. They will continue to happen. I know "we must be something!" burns in your belly. This is the problem with government today. And endless sea of do-gooders fueled by the belief we are just one more law and database away from Nirvana.

- seattleeng

December 28, 2012 at 6:33pm

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Rosen's attack on the Posner opinion is incoherent. Rosen concedes the post-Heller constitutional problem with Illinois's total ban on carrying "ready-to-use" firearms outside the home. But all the Posner decision did was to strike down that extreme ban. It didn't strike down or implicitly prohibit heavy regulation of the sort Rosen suggests. Rather, it explicitly invited the legislature to come up with such regulation, explicitly approving of some (as a constitutional matter anyway), and ruling out none. The logic of the Posner opinion is straightforward: Heller found in the Second Amendment and historical record a right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense. Heller may be wrong, and Posner thinks it's wrong, but it's the law. While Heller was addressed to a prohibition of guns in the home, its rationale -- the right to armed self-defense -- applies with equal if not greater force outside the home. To hold otherwise would create an irrational distinction between home self-defense and other self-defense that, I agree, is in great tension with Heller's analysis and can only be sustained by those hostile to its ruling. The courts don't have the luxury of being hostile to the Supreme Court's rulings -- at least not in their decisions. (In the pages of TNR is another matter.) Thus, Heller's Second Amendment was implicated by Illinois's ban. Perhaps the constitutional problem could have been overcome by a strong showing by the state of the necessity of the restriction to protect public safety (which is a good out for the courts to leave) but no such showing was made in this case -- the evidence is inconclusive at best. Rosen finds Posner's opinion "cavalier" and strewn with disatseful "punch lines." I think a fair reading of the opinion, though, would dispel those assertions. It's straightforward and well-written (as Posner's opinions usually are) and, I think, persuasive on the main point, which is that Heller's analysis compels striking down a total ban on carrying ready-to-use weapons outside the home. Rosen wanted Posner to "make clear" that Heller *only* prohibits total bans and that it prohibits nothing else. But the court wasn't faced with the "else." It was faced with a total ban. It was enough to say that that went too far without passing on hypothetical regulations not yet presented. And it must seem possible, even to more "cautious" judges, that *some* regualtion short of a total ban would run afoul of Heller's Second Amendment.

- JakeH

December 28, 2012 at 7:50pm

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Seattle, you and your friends haven't come close to demonstrating your position that there's no regulation of guns whatsoever that could possibly do anything to reduce gun violence. In fact, common sense tells us that that's a pretty ridiculous claim to make. Almost certainly illegal gun trafficking could be more effectively addressed in this country, where gun laws addressing sales and transfers, in addition to ownership and use, are unusually permissive due to the insistence of NRA nuts. And I see no reason to invite further tragedies by continuing to allow the sale of AR-15s or the like, or 30-round magazines. The NRA wants armed opposition to crazies. But that armed opposition, even when it's there (as it was at Columbine and, obviously, at Fort Hood), will likely be outgunned and can otherwise be evaded. Loughner only stopped killing because he had to reload. Why are these weapons, these ruthlessly effective mass-killing devices, *on the market or in circulation at all*? There's no justification for it. Yes, you can argue that the solution to urban crime is is to address the economic circumstances and prospects of those who live in poor, urban communities, and you can certainly argue that our culture shamefully glorifies violence in mass entertainment and sick video games that nobody should make (but which can't be outlawed), but none of that comes anywhere close to demonstrating that regulation of the weapons themselves shouldn't, at the very least, be part of the mix.

- JakeH

December 28, 2012 at 8:04pm

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Without reading the other comments yet, my initial reaction to Rosen's thesis is that he quickly undermines it. His thesis is that those who worry that the Supreme Court will strike down gun control measures now under consideration "should stop sweating." He then recounts how a leading Court of Appeals judge, Richard Posner, who witheringly criticized the Heller decision, gave Heller a very broad interpretation in subsequent litigation. So, just because Rosen thinks he is smarter than Posner doesn't mean there is no reason to sweat. Dhurtado

- NR143296

December 28, 2012 at 9:05pm

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I couldn't agree more with your first post Jake. Once you establish a construction of the 2d amendment that it protects the right of individuals to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense, then any proscription of or restriction on possessing, owning or carrying firearms at least implicates the 2d amendment. The question then become whether the restriction unduly burdens the right to keep and bear arms or is justified by a compelling governmental interest that cannot be advanced in a less burdensome way. Under that analytical framework, there is no guarantee that laws restricting access to or ownership of firearms will not be deemed unconstitutional. Dhurtado

- NR143296

December 28, 2012 at 9:58pm

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I don't see the "incoherence" in Rosen's comments though it's been years since I read Heller and haven't read Posner's decision. Whether cavalier or too jokey I cannot say, though the few opinions I've read of Posner have their bits of sardonic whimsy while shoving it up the losing party's ass in utter contempt. I'm thinking specifically of Posner's needless foray into how the ostrich defence first got its name in his first opinion concerning Conrad Black. What is Rosen essentially complaining of after all: that Posner didn't go out of his way to state in obiter that there is no necessary ban on the regulating, even heavy regulating, of carrying laws flowing from Heller. After the Connecticut shooting one can well understand Rosen's hunger for such obiter, and it being obiter wouldn't have bound lower courts and might have helped lawyers and their state clients a little in their arguments for upholding specific regulations. There was no obligation on Posner to have done so-- even though Rosen sort of sub textually suggests there was as a matter of enlightened good conscience-- but I don't find his article "incoherent" as in refuting itself by reason of its internal contradiction(s). In any event boys, happeeeeeeeeeeyyyy new year!

- basman

December 29, 2012 at 12:04am

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Good holidays to you to Doug.

- basman

December 29, 2012 at 12:06am

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Hi Basman. Rosen's piece is internally inconsistent as follows. He posits that those who worry that the courts will construe Heller broadly and thereby strike down effective regulation of firearms have nothing to worry about. They have nothing to worry about, says Rosen, because Rosen interprets Heller as being limited to laws that ban the possession of firearms in the home, and as not reaching the possession of firearms outside the home. But then he promptly points out that courts indeed have interpreted Heller broadly. That demolishes his thesis that there is no reason to worry that courts will interpret Heller broadly. PS. What do you mean by "obiter." is that what we in America call "dicta"? Dhurtado

- NR143296

December 29, 2012 at 7:50am

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JakeH writes: "Almost certainly illegal gun trafficking could be more effectively addressed in this country, where gun laws addressing sales and transfers, in addition to ownership and use, are unusually permissive due to the insistence of NRA nuts." Like I said, if someone can show something works then I'm all for it. And as I said, if we could push a button and make all semi auto disappear for good tomorrow, then I'd push it myself. In 2008 the Guardian in the UK went out to buy illegal guns. They found semi autos readily available throughout the streets of the UK, MAC10 machine guns (yes, machine guns), sawed off shot guns. Price was cheap, meaning supply was good (or demand was low...but considering gun crimes have been steadily climbing in the UK in spite of tougher laws, I don't think that is the case) JakeH writes: "And I see no reason to invite further tragedies by continuing to allow the sale of AR-15s or the like, or 30-round magazines. " You haven't established that the 30 round magazine is a significant contributor to the crimes in question. In all of these tragedies, the shooter has on a vest (not bulletproof) with many pockets. Are you up for outlawing vests with more than 2 pockets? What is the difference between a 30 round and a 10 round magazine? I can make a 100 round magazine in my house with $300 of tools and supplies. You think bad guys that can make meth aren't able to make guns and gun components? You really think these laws will make these things go away? Kind of like drug laws made drugs go away? Kind of like prohibition laws made moonshine go away?

- seattleeng

December 29, 2012 at 10:28am

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Basman, I think it's incoherent because, on the one hand, Rosen criticizes Posner for aggressively "overreading" Heller, but then, on the other hand, he seems to basically agree with Posner's decision and doesn't explain why he was in fact overreading Heller. He ends up chiding Posner merely for declining to take what would have in fact been the "uncautious" step of issuing sweeping advisory dicta on all manner of regulations not presented, but that wasn't the thrust of Rosen's initial thesis, which is that Posner is among those judges who are too aggressively extending the Heller holding beyond its facts. Anyway, Posner does in fact explicitly leave the door open for various forms regulation, and Rosen's proposed advisory dicta would have been wrong on the law. No appellate judge could I think responsibly argue that Heller's Second Amendment *only* applies to regulations that are in the nature of a total ban. One can easily imagine restrictions short of a total ban that would implicate Heller's constitutional right to armed self-defense, even in the home. For example, a requirement that permit applicants demonstrate a special need different from the general public prior to being able to purchase a gun for the home would, I think, certainly violate Heller. New York currently has that requirement for concealed carry. The Second Circuit upheld it, in one of the decisions that Rosen approves as "cautious," but I think it's on thin ice, both as a matter of practical reality and as a matter of legal analysis. I agree with Rosen that regulation, even heavy regulation, is certainly possible after Heller. Heller itself recognized that certain regulations would be okay. To the extent, though, that Rosen is saying that anything short of a total ban is fine, I think he'll soon find that he's just wrong. That conclusion just doesn't make sense if you take Heller seriously, as judges are bound to do.

- JakeH

December 29, 2012 at 10:55am

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p.s. It seemed evident to me, well before Posner's decision, that Heller would be extended beyond home self-defense. It fairly screams out as the next logical step in the protection of gun rights that Heller establishes. I think Rosen probably shared that view. Lower court judges *could* await a Supreme Court decision before taking that next step, and Rosen may regard that as a more "cautious" approach, and it is a defensible stance. On the other hand, I think that if a different constitutional right were at issue -- one we approved of -- we would rightly criticize such decisions as logically and legally flawed and evincing nothing so much as, as I said before, hostility to the right in question. If Heller's holding truly relied on the home-as-castle distinction, we'd have a different story. But, really, Heller only used that point to amplify its decision, to say that this regulation was *way* out of bounds. It's central theory is that individuals have a personal right to keep "and bear" (note that word) arms in order to vindicate their natural right to self-defense. Much has been written about why that theory is wrong, and it's in great tension with the full text of the Second Amendment, but we're stuck with it for now, and I think it takes some historical and verbal and logical gymnastics to restrict that theory to self-defense at home.

- JakeH

December 29, 2012 at 11:15am

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Thanks Jake and dh, I'll look at your comments more closely at a better moment. Obiter is short for obiter dicta, the non essential part of the judge's reasons, as in non essential to the narrowest proposition the case decides.

- basman

December 29, 2012 at 11:24am

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@ Jake and dh: Okay I reread Rosen’s piece and I reread your subsequent comments to mine. I agree that Rosen’s piece is really sloppily reasoned on the grounds you explain. Maybe it’s not exactly self refuting as it suffers much more from lack of analytical rigor in him being in more than one conceptual place at once and being unclear about it. One of the burdens of his piece is to show why, as Jake notes, Posner’s opinion is the “oddest of the lower court opinions” and to identify where the expansive over-reading of Heller is that makes up that oddness. On this he rides different horses: 1. Posner somehow unjustifiably extended Heller to carrying; 2. Rosen is ambiguous about Posner rooting his holding in self-defense; 3. Posner collapsed the home carry distinction by applying the Second Amendment equally expansively to both without noting limits on the latter; 4. Posner failed to indicate that Heller, the Second Amendment and pre Heller decisions can be read as applying only to total bans on home possession and carrying—bans which only Illinois and D.C. have passed. Adding to the confusion is the reference to Wilkinson “refusing to decide whether the Supreme Court’s recognition of an individual’s right to bear arms should apply outside the home” without giving the context of that case, what the issue was, and whether, as in Posner’s case, the issue of carrying was squarely before the court. It is unclear whether Rosen is saying that Posner should have refused the application to carrying or whether Posner should have been more circumspect even if he was going to apply the right to carrying or both. Adding further to that specific confusion is the subsequent citing of the Second Circuit’s opinion, which goes not to the constitutional right to carry but to its regulation via needing to show cause for concealed carry. Rosen then makes a big point of the tradition of heavily regulating concealed carrying but as Jake notes what does that have to do with what was before Posner. (Or by this point has Rosen left Posner behind? It’s unclear.) …In other words, as the Second Circuit convincingly concluded, the text and history of the Second Amendment suggest there is a limited right not only to keep a gun in the home but to bear it in public: that’s why Illinois’s total ban on public gun possession couldn’t withstand constitutional scrutiny. But the Illinois ban is a national outlier… As Jake describes Posner’s opinion, this seems to be in effect what Posner said. So I agree that Rosen, on my rereading of him and your comments, not only doesn’t make his case as to Posner’s “oddest” “expansive” opinion, but he also really fudges on the case he tries to make. Dh I might not agree so readily with your comment of starting “Hi Basman.” Rosen admittedly does note that a few courts have used Heller broadly but his deodorant argument is, in contrast, ” Since the decisions came down, there have been hundreds of civil and criminal challenges to gun control laws, and the vast majority of them have been unsuccessful.” Anyway thanks again for your comments. I enjoyed reading them and rereading Rosen in light of them.

- basman

December 29, 2012 at 5:51pm

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True Basman. Rosen does allude to 100s of challenges to gun control laws, the majority of which have been unsuccessful. But how can he infer that the Heller opinion will be limited to its facts, and that gun control advocates thus have nothing to worry about, when one of the United States' most respected and influential Court of Appeals judges has indeed construed Heller to apply beyond the facts that were before it? Moreover, irrespective of what the lower courts have done, Rosen supplies no analysis that would persuade anyone that the Supreme Court will limit the right to bear arms for self-defense to outright bans on the possesion of guns in the home. Dhurtado

- NR143296

December 29, 2012 at 8:31pm

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Dave, this is small beer on my part but the first point about "no sweat," more rhetorical than suggesting 100% certainty, depends on an assessment of the strength of the inference Rosen draws from how the vast majority of the lower decisions have gone. Again, I don't think his point is so much that there is 100% no chance of striking down reasonable regulations but rather that's it's sufficiently unlikely such that one ought not worry too much about it. That inference may be strong or weak but it's not--and this is the small beer of my point--contradictory. And for your second point about what the Supreme Court might in future do, Rosen says the problem doesn't lie with it, and says (implicitly) its precedent has been set by a conservative court balancing the individual ownership right it sees in the Second Amendment with recognizing states' rights to regulate that ownership. That seems a fairly reasonable surmise to me, which then focuses the problem, as he notes, with what lower courts do. His surmise may seem unreasonable to you and arguments could be addressed pro and con in assessing it, but again I don't see that as self refuting. That's all.

- basman

December 29, 2012 at 9:21pm

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Small beer on my part as well Basman, but even if I take your moderated version of what Rosen actually said, "They should stop sweating. Despite its turn to the right on gun control, the Supreme Court should almost certainly uphold any of the new regulations that have a chance of being enacted, according to the logic of its decisions in District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. Chicago[,]" his subsequent focus on Posner's interpretation of Heller demonstrates that there is indeed something to sweat, regardless of whether one could argue that Posner's interpretation is wrong. Dhurtado

- NR143296

December 29, 2012 at 10:21pm

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btw, name isn't "dave." i'll take a cue from Jake and not reveal my full name. :-)

- NR143296

December 29, 2012 at 10:23pm

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Why did I thought it was Dave I do not know. I could go one of two ways here: keep calling you Dave or not. I'll go with not.

- basman

December 29, 2012 at 10:44pm

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:-)

- NR143296

December 30, 2012 at 12:35am

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