The New Republic

Depends onwhat you mean by "expension."

- arnon1

March 21, 2013 at 6:13pm

As the settlements are completely illegal, it hardly matters. All construction in the settlements is illegal.

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 7:38pm

Arnon, you ask what I mean by "expansion". For starters, Israel's Interior Ministry and Defense Ministry can aggressively put a stop to any illegal outpost building in the West Bank or expansion of any settlements outside existing settlement blocks within 30 miles of the Green Line or in the Northern Jordan Valley. That would be a good start, since relatively few settlers live in the affected areas and the ones who do are the most zealous, right-wing ones who attract little Israeli public sympathy and the ones who are likeliest to attack Arabs or destroy their property. The next step would be to cease expansion of the boundaries of remaining settlements outside the 1967 municipal boundaries of East Jerusalem, even though additional buildings could be constructed within those boundaries. A third step would be to stop providing special financial incentives for newcomers to move to West Bank or East Jerusalem in general, so that they are placed on the same financial footing as Israelis who want to move elsewhere within the State of Israel. A fourth step would be to offer financial incentives for residents of existing settlements to move back west of the Green Line, especially from places like Ariel which are likely to become part of a Palestinian state and are largely settled by secular Jews who don't have an idealogical commitment to living in Judea and Samaria. It would be a genuine sign that things have changed if Israel and its current leaders took ANY of those steps at this time. I'm not holding my breath.

- wildboy

March 22, 2013 at 3:00pm

the usual narcissistic crap from Rudybull. Last time he said that a poster knew more than the writer of the article. Now he says that his sister knows more. Why would anyone spend time and money on a magazine they have such a low opinion? Why would someone spend money an hassuch a low opi magazine he magazine

- arnon1

March 21, 2013 at 6:28pm

I like to keep track of what racist Jewish thugs like you are saying on the internet. It is important to know what you goons are up to and to demonstrate to the world that not all Jews are racists like you. I like the magazine. My opinion of you could hardly be lower. You disgust me.

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 7:40pm

Rudybull is the spokesman for the PLO.

- arnon1

March 21, 2013 at 6:30pm

What an antisemitic creep he is. Equating the deliberate targeting of children with accidental deaths.

- arnon1

March 21, 2013 at 6:32pm

These days the devil wears a humanitarian mask.

- arnon1

March 21, 2013 at 6:33pm

No one could accuse you of wearing a humanitarian mask, arnon. Your racism is nothing but overt. Even to call attention to the fact that the government of Israel is killing Palestinians in their own land excites your disgusting racism. The deaths of Palestinians at the hands of the government of Israel are hardly accidental. They are the inevitable and predictable consequence of the apartheid regime maintained by Israel in the West Bank and the violent repression necessary to sustain it. Not that it matters to you. It suffices for goons like you that it is Muslims being killed. Their lives are nothing to arnon, the Jewish racist. You are a disgrace to Judaism, the antithesis of everything it is supposed to be.

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 7:55pm

Tit for tat, that's the ticket.

- basman

March 21, 2013 at 4:53pm

If there was a mistake in the speech it was the comment that Israel has to carpet diem, that time is not on their side. these comments make it harder to achieve peace. Why would a Palestinian be ready to compromise if time is on their side?

- arnon1

March 21, 2013 at 6:19pm

One might as well ask why an Israelis would be ready to compromise if they think god is on their side. Sadly, Israel is in the grip of racist, messianic nuts like arnon. Hence, peace is impossible. And time most certainly is on the side of the Palestinians. Israel will in the end pay heavily for its decades of political domination of rightwing thugs such as arnon

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 7:43pm

"I find Klein Halevi quite as offensive as aaron does. His characterization of Klein Halevi's propaganda is quite apt." Who gives a flying fuck, asshole. Here is a lawyer or so he says. He is supposed to believe in freedom of speech but when someone exercises it this flat head goes bonkers. What a turd.

- arnon1

March 21, 2013 at 9:08pm

I believe completely in your freedom to speak freely, arnon, demonstrating for all the world with every utterance what a complete putz you are. The freedom of speech does not imply some right to be free of criticism for that speech. Speakers get to speak, others get to criticize. You couldn't possibly be any stupider, could you? The wonder is that you imagine that your execrable thuggery somehow reflects positively on Israel. To the contrary, to be publicly supported by the likes of you is nothing but a disaster.

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 9:36pm

Hey AaronW, I want to quarrel with your characterization of Halevy's 2/3ds turnabout, But I want to know what text you have in mind. Is it, as I presume, this: ...But for Israelis, the least credible part of his talk was when he tried to convince us that Mahmoud Abbas is ready to make peace—or that the Arab Spring has created an opening for reconciliation with the Middle East. That's hardly the reality we see emerging around us. There was something deeply unsettling, almost cruel, in trying to reawaken our suppressed hopes for normalcy—for a new Middle East, in the language of the Oslo peace process.

- basman

March 21, 2013 at 7:43pm

According to Klein Halevi, Obama's sole responsibility is to mouth the Israeli narrative, to "speak Israeli." Any deviation from that narrative, such as suggesting that the Palestinians are willing to make a just peace, is therefore intolerable. Anything less than total "credibility" in the eyes of Israelis is intolerable. I frankly don't give a crap what Israelis think about Obama or anything else. It is they who ought to be worried about what Americans think. They are the clients, we are the patrons. Despite the feelgood moment (a breakthrough? what nonsense) the trend is most certainly not in Israel's favor. It is quite clear that the next generation, including American Jews now in their teens and twenties, will not support Israel's colonialist pretensions.

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 7:49pm

I find Klein Halevi quite as offensive as aaron does. His characterization of Klein Halevi's propaganda is quite apt.

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 7:51pm

Boy, Aaron, Israelis who have opinions contrary to yours really get you going. What is the point of the crazy invective against a writer who just giving his opinion about a speech? I don't get you.

- arnon1

March 21, 2013 at 9:05pm

The thug arnon complains about etiquette. Punctilious little goon that he is. As usual, the thug cannot do anything other than accuse someone who disagrees with him of anti-Semitism. Perhaps aaron's disagreements with Klein Halevi have nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that Klein Halevi is Israeli. Perhaps he just finds Klein Halevi to be dishonest and wants to point that out. But a racist thug like arnon will always see racism in any disagreement, and, even if he doesn't, he will level the accusation. As ever, he will insist that any opinion contrary to his own is "crazy" and/or "invective." He cannot ever speak to the issue, only hurl invective at other posters. Idiot.

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 9:30pm

The puerile and insane nazi like Rudybullymakes calling me "a thug' makes me laugh. Nothing he says rises above facile invective. This David Duke wanna be just vomits hateful opinions about Jews who disagree with him. If he had his way he would put Halevi behind barbed wire into Rudybully camp.

- arnon1

March 21, 2013 at 9:42pm

More thuggery from the fascist goon. You love to hide behind Judaism, arnon, don't you? You invariably claim that criticism of your vile, racist, fascist opinions is tantamount to anti-Semitism. But it isn't. That you are a sick, twisted liar and thug cannot be laid at the feet of Judaism. It is just you who is a sick, twisted liar and thug. It behooves all decent people to point that out and behooves all of us who are Jews to point out that your disgraceful behavior does not have anything to do with Judaism. Because if the rest of us were like you, anti-Semitism would be completely justified. What decent human being could fail to be anti a scabrous nothing like you? The fantasies of murder, annihilation, putting people in camps are all yours, arnon. No one else here talks in such violent terms or analogizes criticism to murder. Only you, because at heart you are a nazi.

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 9:53pm

Roid, I've never seen your accusations more disgusting or unfounded: 'apartheid' state, indeed. That Israel has maintained some semblance of a legitimate civil society while under semi-constant attack since 1948 by various forms of militia or Army from the 22 Arab homelands that surround it and explicitly intend to 'push the jews into the sea' is an immense achievement (just think how far US culture and civil liberty decayed after one attack, between Sept 2001 and 2004 or so). It is only sad, that these decades of fighting are taking their toll on the nature of Hebrew society, once a haven of socialism and Democracy (and STILL the latter!) in a barren, autocratic land. And, yes, the IDF has the right to defend itself, even if that means proportionately greater casualties on the side of the aggressors; for the Arabs, any death is a victory in this fight, sadly enough--and each one is strung as far as possible for propaganda purposes. None of this means that Bibi is anything but a moderately clever pig of a man, but Roi, your antiIsraeli stance is quite wrong, based on who's initiated each conflict since 1967.

- Curran1

March 21, 2013 at 8:35pm

Every single thing you have to say above is completely irrelevant, Curran. Israel maintains an apartheid regime in the West Bank, regardless of what it is doing within Israel proper. In the West Bank, there are separate legal regimes and systems based on race, separate settlements and housing, privileged access to local resources for the settlers, political rights for the settlers where Palestinians have none, and plenty of brutality that costs Palestinian lives. Read last Sunday's NYT magazine if you have any doubt about that. All of the elements of apartheid can be found in the Israeli regime in the West Bank. All of them. On the other hand, there is absolutely no defense or security justification for the settlements and thus no justification for the additional burdens on water, transportation, security, freedom of movement, and economic life that the settlements impose on the Palestinians. NOTHING about who initiated the wars entitles Israel systematically to violate the rights of the Palestinians under occupation, as set forth in the Fourth Geneva Convention. It applies by its terms to people subjected to military occupation, and it matters not whether the war that led to the occupation was legal or not, justified or not. An occupied people still has rights that the occupying power is bound to respect. All of your recitation of the history is therefore irrelevant obfuscation. Not one word you write justifies Israel in its systematic violation of Palestinian human rights. Israel is not entitled to violate the Fourth Geneva Convention that protects the rights of occupied peoples. Israel is not entitled to colonize the Palestinians in violation of international law and then claim that it is acting in self-defense when it defends its illegal colonies. It is not entitled as a member of the United Nations to ignore a multitude of UNSC resolutions instructing it to desist. To the contrary, it is obliged to observe them. I wouldn't go so far as to call your unapologetic propaganda on behalf of Israel's crimes disgusting, Curran, but you are either an intentional liar and shill or abysmally ignorant. More likely all of them at once. Get this much straight, Curran -- the colonization of the Palestinians in violation of international law, including international treaties to which Israel is a State Party, has NOTHING whatsoever do do with Israel's right of self defense.

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 9:21pm

So shove it.

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 9:23pm

Great post Curran. Rudybull is of his meds. He is angry because no one will hire him to write opinion pieces for them. He has let his jealousy eat up the few functioning synapses in his brain.

- arnon1

March 21, 2013 at 9:46pm

There is no sense in engaging a mad dog in serious discussion.

- arnon1

March 21, 2013 at 9:47pm

The moron bleats.

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 9:56pm

That is way over arnon's head.

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 10:00pm

Aaron, thanks for the explanation. I'd like to answer you at a better moment. As to Arnon's complaint that you're being harsh against Halevy for merely expressing his opinion, see Arnon on Judis, where in response to opinions he doesn't agree with, Arnon notes, absurdly, Judis's "contempt" for the state of Israel, absurdly conflating righteous indignation with the the Israeli right and the entirety of the state.

- basman

March 22, 2013 at 2:53pm

Btw, I don't know about other people, but I find these embedded threadlets are incredibly unwieldy.

- basman

March 22, 2013 at 3:04pm

@AaronW, I doubt whether you'll come back to see this but given your defense of your "sarcastic paraphrase," I'd say, I don't see the ground for sarcasm in Halevy's saying that Abbas isn't ready to make peace. This is the statement of a liberal israeli commentator whose feet are on the ground and knows whereof he speaks. Nothing in the statement suggests Israel will only deal with ideal neighbors and not who's at hand. It's simply a judgment about the current state of Palestinian leadership, as augmented by the unmentioned leadership of Hamas. You may disagree with the judgment but it is nothing, I'd suggest, to be sarcastic about or deserving your venom, "turdlike" or whatever you exactly originally said. // On your second point, you concede your overreaction. Halevy stands against Israeli settlement policy. And the comparison of "rather muted" praise for Obama's critique of that policy compared to his more emphatic affirmation of Israel's right to be skeptical of appeals to peace may be a rightfully nuanced criticism of Halavey's piece, one I'd disagree with, but it's too subtle by half, i.e. subtle to the point of being attenuated for your, especially as the ground for your initial sharp overreaction./// I agree with you about Halevy's diagnosis a misstep in urging the Israli people to pressure their politicians as a misstep or mistake, albeit that's a nuanced criticism that could be argued both ways. But, to return to my main theme ruining through these brief comments, you have not by any means, I suggest, made a case for, "...How creepily self-serving...," "...two-faced turd of an essay..." Finally, there *is* on reflection something of the personal in that last phrase as against Halevi himself. For, implicitly, what kind of a person writes a "two faced turd of an essay?"

- basman

March 23, 2013 at 1:53pm

RudyBull calls Israeli Jews nazis and thinks that he is not an antisemitic piece of horse manure just like David Duke. Go to his web site, both of you hate Israelis and both of you say you love Palestinians. You are both dried dessicated branches of the same poisonous root.

- arnon1

March 21, 2013 at 10:33pm

I don't call Jews, Nazis, moron1. I call you a Nazi, because you are one. Not to mention an inveterate liar. You cannot help but place in the mouths of others the vile sentiments of your own that you then proceed to criticize. Typical Nazi propaganda technique, right out of Josef Goebbels. Do you think that you are excused because you are Jewish? Not a bit. You are the one rolling around in David Duke's muck, not me.

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 11:53pm

I don't read your demented and hateful bile so don't bother addressing me, ever, Rudyjerk.

- arnon1

March 21, 2013 at 10:55pm

And yet, moron1, you are constantly responding to what you claim not to read. Everyone else here manages to talk about the subject. You are such a complete shmuck that you can do nothing but comment on other posters. No matter how stupid you are, and you surely are that, you might still attempt to behave like a civilized human being. But then you are not, are you? Nothing but a fascist thug.

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 11:48pm

Only arnon would suggest that you are anti-Israeli. Charges of anti-Semitism or hatred of Israel, along with invective directed at other posters, are his stock in trade when confronted with opinions he does not like. He can do nothing else as he is incapable of intelligent discussion or argument. He directs the same spew at me although my sister and brother-in-law, who met in the Jewish youth group we all belonged to, are among the founders of a kibbutz in Israel to which they made aliyah 35 years ago. My niece is a decorated Israeli army officer. One of my nephews is currently a shaliach in Canada. And I shall be leaving tomorrow with my family to join them on the kibbutz for Pesach. They will in turn come here this spring for my younger daughter's Bat Mitzvah (which will be attended by multiple rabbis all of whom are friends of mine since childhood). Does any of that inoculate me from the demented ravings of arnon and his accusations of anti-Semitism, Jew-hatred, and hatred of Israel? Nope. So don't take it personally. You have no need to defend yourself in this regard.

- roidubouloi

March 22, 2013 at 12:09am

arnon is no different in this regard from the rightwing extremists who accuse any American who criticizes the United States of being unpatriotic, hating America, blah, blah, blah. This is just what wingnut fascist types do. They don't know how to think and, in the circles in which they travel, this sort of thing both passes for thought and makes them feel important. They are Brownshirts, the empty-headed thugs with which the really dangerous haters surround themselves.

- roidubouloi

March 22, 2013 at 12:13am

Yo, moron. Can you read English? I said Israel maintains an apartheid regime in the West Bank, regardless of what it does in Israel proper. You have some contra argument to that, by all means proceed. By try, try, try to say something relevant. Stop hiding your stupidity and incapacity behind charges of anti-Semitism. Thinking that you are an idiot is not the same thing as hating Jews, even if you are one.

- roidubouloi

March 21, 2013 at 11:44pm

No arnon. I have no interest in proving anything about my intellect. Rather, I am making clear that your demented ravings are those of a moron and fascist thug, not that there is much difference between the two. And you are most helpful in this endeavor. Every time you open your mouth, the vile idiocies just pour out.

- roidubouloi

March 22, 2013 at 12:21am

You two disgust me with your accusations of bad faith and xenophobia. It has no place here at TNR, now that Libref's gone, at least. I was going to comment on the article, but I just don't have it left in me.

- Curran1

March 22, 2013 at 8:51pm